michael is a hell of a good sport and a hell of an athlete, throwing plumbata over a hundred meters casually is pretty insane. I hope you all will keep collaborating
And it's still possible to throw it way further, he's trained for 800g javelin = he need some power and a muscle mass, which makes him slow with lightweight plumbata. We had same darts as a toy when I was kid and 12yr old boy can throw them over 70 meters (with few weeks of practice ofc). So from my own experience, this weapon is very versatile and dangerous even in the hands of children. Specialized thrower would probably make around 150 meters and you also have to consider, that 2000 yrs ago, humans were way stronger in general and they were praciticing with weapons almost since they were born for entire life - I have a feeling, that the real edge was around 200 meters.
@@paveltomsik2610 i'd love to see a video of you outthrowing an athlete, you'll never post it though and just post unverifiable bullshit. all of what you said smells like bullshit and by god you'll never throw anything more than 100m
Congratulations to Michael on his javelin results. Fantastic video. I tried shooting a traditional bow at 80m and it's not easy to hit, I'm really impressed at how close Michael got to the targets with the plumbata.
I used to be a very good throw at school and when younger, went on holiday at 40 last month and decided to throw skimming stones for half hour, my elbow and shoulder still hurt.
Well, there's also the idea that if you don't throw as far you might get killed in battle. In general you don't want to risk injury like that in sports or work, but when your life's on the line a (likely) minor injury is better than death. Though this would likely apply more to dedicated ranged troops, rather than those expected to fight in melee.
You're very right that it is sensible to take risks in battle (or sporting competition) that you wouldn't take in training. But (as you of course already mentioned) any damage to your shoulder or elbow from throwing will surely upset your ability to wield sword and shield in the press of combat. And as a individual trying to stay alive, I imagine that I would value my sword/shield capability far above the payoff of maybe wounding one enemy before the lines even clash. Also, I assumed the plumbata was a legionnaire's weapon, not a dedicated skirmisher's? I guess I assumed that because it seems like an expensive instrument, and difficult to carry in large numbers. Also I think some roman historian described them being carried on straps inside the scutum? Now I'm just rambling, but did the romans even have dedicated skirmishers? Or did they rely on auxiliaries for that? @@patrickdix772
This is the only channel where I don't cringe at the merch ad, but instead drool in anticipation. Fantastic work Michael, congrats! Keep at it, both of you. These vids are always so much fun.
Congratulations to Michael on the Bronze! I love this collaboration, seeing what people at top form can do is so informative and interesting, and I'm so glad he's willing to take the time to participate.
Congratulations on the Bronze finish! I'm excited if the extended length will affect the throw but as it is, 110m on a throwing weapon almost unthinkable before seeing it with my own eyes.
Its regular for fighting and straight flying hunting boomerangs to pass 100 meters pf straight flight. The woomera (spear thrower) used by the aborigines can propell a spear about 6 feet in length about 160-180 meters or more.
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367having had the chance to use an atlatl I too was surprised at how easy it actually is to throw a spear quite far once you get the extra leverage I only managed about 50-60 meters but I was only 14 at the time and didn't have that many attempts before the next person had their try. For context the throwing spears we had at PE I could only get to about 35-40 meters while being a few years older (and fitter) at that point.
I've been fascinated by the Plumbata ever since Tod introduced me to it in a formal video. It's crazy to know just how heavily armed Roman Troops really were.
Yeah it's like what, 4 or 5 plumbata, then a wall of throwing spears, the light pilum, the heavy pilum, and finally close to melee. That's a LOT of ranged nastiness from about 100m out to point blank.
Those darts can be slotted in a mid sized or larger shield, the gauls in particular used that tactic alot to hurl darts at enemy formations to soften them up or blunt a charge then draw swords. The Roman's picked up on that and their tower shields can store up to six along with two javelin on their back. Fun fact on the pilum javelin, they were made with long blades so that when they hit an enemies shield, the shaft would bend the head to make harder to remove forcing the wielder to either drop it or fight with a handicap of a unwieldy shield.
@@eddapultstab2078 Oh god, not the bending myth again... No, the long shaft is so that, after penetrating the shield, the pilum carries on travelling and stabs the man holding the shield. The "bending" does not always happen, a straight pilum is just as encumbering as a straight one, it's easily rectified b straightening it over your knee if you do care, and is not attested in the sources. It's a myth that absolutely deserves to die. I'm also curious for sources that the Gauls used plumbata (rather than javelin), and that legionnaries were equipped with both pilum and plumbata at the same time.
At Pennsic last August we were throwing plumbata for distance on the atlatl range, just to get an idea of how far they would go. One of the guys threw a plumbata 267 feet (81m) underhand from a flat footed stance. We all said "WOW!"
Our boy Michael has only been going 3 years and already has a medal? Hot dang, well done! It's always a pleasure seeing him throw, regardless of the projectile.
I’m becoming more and more convinced that plumbata are just not something to be fooled around with. The penetration power of the pilum is legendary, but imagine having just a two or three-rank deep veteran vanguard with four or five ranks of even just casually trained auxiliaries lobbing volley after volley of these little barbed nightmares at you…
In the middle of the video I thought that plumbata would be the perfect weapon for civilians protecting a high wall. Automatic range and power advantage (goes through helmets and probably shoulder armor, if there even is one) and harder to throw back. And you can store a lof of them (compared to pilum) without having to care for e.g. sinews getting wet or bows starting to rot. You can even put a few dozen of them on a catapult for extra fun.
Here's my two penneth (as an archer) at these distances you do not need large fletchings they have too much drag, if you look at modern arrows shot at 100m they are tiny in comparison. You absolutely need fletchings of a size to stabilise flight and be accurate, but these weapons are inherently inaccurate, so all the fletchings need to do is make it go in the direction it is thrown, experiment with fletchings to find a compromise.
I think it was meant as a disguise for arrows. Since nobody would pick an arrow out of a corpse unless they have a death wish. Also the enemy will not wait for you to pull out an arrow out of the body much less plumbata. The end is made with the metal sharp pointy triangle tip so it works similarly as an arrow so even if you wanted to pull out the plumbata the pointy end would stay inside and since it penetrated the body it would also be harder to pull it out of the body.
On the subject of these being thrown back - While it's certainly possible I have a hard time believing someone is going to bend down and scrabble around in the grass/dirt/ect to pick up something and throw it back. In the context of a constant barrage of these small projectiles, stopping to scoop up something could easily get you killed or injured. These projectiles are moving at a very human-scale speed, how much time do you want to be looking down at the ground to find things to throw back at your opponents instead of being eyes-up. Presumably able to intercept them with a shield, and just generally paying attention so you don't get hit. I have no doubt that it happened sometimes, but in the context of a group of people rushing towards you flinging dangerous objects at you I don't think it would be a high priority.
Exactly what I wrote in my comment, it might have not uploaded properly. Also I thought that these are not as cumbersome to walk with strapped on your shield as a pilum would, although I have some suggestions on logistics and use cases of those too, front lines getting more pila from the back rows, rotating throwers, getting more from wagons behind the troops with possibly servants/slaves bringing them more and so on. Imagine these for the troops flanking a main force, throwing them to approaching skirmishing cavalry and such.
Couple of thoughts on this. - You can pretty easily pick these up without looking down for more than a split second if you do it with a straight back, so long as you're not really tightly packed into formation of course. So I don't think you're in any more danger picking them up personally and if you're scared of being hit picking them up you'll be just as scared standing there to begin with. - You need a bit of space to throw them a good distance so a group of skirmishers could throw them further than a shield wall in formation. - If you select your target accordingly you needn't worry about them coming back at all. Throw them at cavalry. Bigger target, can't throw back.. Goody gumdrops.
@@SueMyChin Couple of quick points re: picking up: 1) If against a charging enemy then they would not stop to pick up anything. At longer ranges the darts will be landing at a shallower angle making retrieving harder, esp while gearing up for final run. 2) If enemy is in formation then slowing/stooping to pick up would definitely break formation. Formations with shields are not really flexible, and troops would have beedn drilled with that in mind.
@@SueMyChin what you've described is the difference between skirmishers and heavy infantry. The former absolutely would be great at picking up weapons like this on the move, while throwing them back. The latter would generally be marching in a tightly packed formation, and would be more interested in keeping cohesion and shields up. From what I've gathered just from these comments, the plumbata was a weapon for the Roman infantry, which would've aided in their versatility vs. other infantry, but might have not been hugely useful against enemy skirmishers to begin with, due to the lack of accuracy against loose formations.
Tod having a medal winning athlete throwing weapons from hundreds of years ago is really surreal when you think about it, and thats why i love this channel 😄
The explanation Michael gives at 8:20 is something I'd never thought about, but makes so much sense in terms of pure mechanics. Looked him up and it turns out he's studying Physics, which makes it click into place lol
Yes, & he's right of course- since the throwing motion is circular, the equation is: ω=V/r (& :. V=ωr) where V=linear velocity of the plumbata head (& :. speed of throw), r=radius of the circular arc the head moves through, & ω=angular velocity (or how fast the arm & shaft are moving around the circle, in rev/sec) So increasing the radius r will obviously increase velocity V, provided you can still move your arm as fast through the throw. Once the length of the shaft starts impeding throwing speed, the advantage is lost.
@@oijosh6286 Indeed. Similarly, the optimal mass for throwing something is such that its moment of inertia about your shoulder when held in the hand is a little less (but of the same order of magnitude) as the moment of inertia of your arm about your shoulder. If it's much more, then it slows down your arm too much and it doesn't end up moving fast enough. If it's much less, all the kinetic energy (or momentum) stays in your arm and the thrown object is left with too little. The plumbata, by increasing the effective length of your arm AND having a heavy weight on the end, can hit this sweet spot while remaining lighter and smaller for practical logistical reasons.
Winging those darts way out that far and only being off by like a few meters is pretty darn good! Michael provides a real-life example for how we could revise certain types of weaponry in TTRPGs.
Seeing Michael throw really puts into perspective how awesome professional athletes are. It's poetic and almost frightening, the might, the precision, and the pushing of the human body to contort and put out the most amount of force in the shortest time.
This series is an outstanding example the weapons as they were meant to be used. Probably not at the limits of his range but an experienced group, probably could do the full 80 at a block of approaching troops
100 is really pushing it, especially because you'd want to overshoot (as in hit the rear lines) rather than undershoot (hit the field. 80's probably the longest you'd do
It depends, this guy was really talented. If he practiced he could probably add another 20 or 30 meters to the throw no problem and legionaires would definitely drill to get their throws just right, maybe not this guy's peak but real close.
Another factor is this seems like a good weapon to throw at or from an infantry charge, which means the throwing back is reduced by the prep your foes have to be making for the clash. So if you have your second (and subsequent?) line(s) throw a volley or two from 60 meters and closing, then when the clash happens, the foe will be less cohesive.
Yeah, that´s an area effect weapon creating an area you really don´t want to be in. Even slightly loosening enemy group cohesion right befor you go in for contact would go a long way.
Great, top tier content. As always, it was a pleasure. Also, huge congrats on the bronze medal! What a great young chap. Wins medals, helps the community with experimental archeology. This films are not really that sciencey, but I do believe that this is one of the best shots at proper experimental archeology that is out there. Once again, kudos to you guys.
Awesomeness! As usual of course. Loving all the experimentation, walking the footsteps of the original developer's quest for the best designs makes it so much more relatable, it was the arms race of it's day!
I like your films generally, but the ones with Michael are favourites. Experimental archaeology at it's best! And, we learn so much about capabilities, and possibilities that were unknown before. I like how keen Michael is as well. He might have made an excellent Roman soldier. Or, a Brit fighting the Romans!
One thing people should always remember when watching these videos is that both javelins and the plumbata were very probably used en masse against enemy formations, not targeting singular soldiers.
Love watching experts in their fields. Michaels natural athleticism and understanding of the physics and biomechanics. Tods vast historical and engineering knowledge.. this is what the internet was made for. Love it. Thank you both so much
I love how this isn't just a range test, it's an accuracy test too. Which many will say "he is miles out" but when you are throwing at a block of 100-300 men, his accuracy is just fine. I imagine throwing them back is a problem but staying in an ordered formation and throwing them all back is going to be impossible. If your armour+shields are better and your formations are better you are going to get to throw more than they can throw back and you are going to have less casualties for it.
These practical demonstrations and research into historical weapons are so well thought out. The Armror's/Smith's perspective should be requisite in any discussion of ancient arms.
I spent a good amount of time researching the theories behind the plumbata for a personal project- there are three things that mitigate the ability of the enemy to throw them back. First, they could be thrown with a specialized sling, greatly increasing the range beyond the capability of the human arm. Second, they could be thrown during a charge much more comfortably than a pilum. If the charge was particularly long, the infantry could discharge twice or three times before engaging since so many more could be held behind the scutum. This would keep enough pressure on the enemy that they couldn't counter maneuver and- more importantly- couldn't throw the plumbata back. The Romans wouldn't be worried about one or two out of hundreds being thrown back into their lines. Third, in the best interpretations of the quincunx formation, that being the checkerboard of maniples, the plumbata would have been particularly deadly killing enemies who foolishly flooded into the kill gaps. The front ranks could throw them into the enemy from the sides while the middle rank (which would have just withdrawn from the front during a maniple switch, pulling the enemy with them) could throw into the enemy directly in front of them. The plumbata would then be retrieved during the next maniple switch. Plumbata come up frequently in Gibbon's work; they seem to have a reputation from his perspective of being particularly deadly and widely loved by Romans. Praetorians seemed to enjoy their use for political assassination, which might be the only thing they were particularly good at : )
I hope this series will have a lot more episodes. Todd's experiments and Michaels Chad throwing skills paired with the great mood of both is very entertaining. So much to explore here! I wonder, if you have a local Roman re-enactment class and if they would be willing to participate as well. A training regime of 3 months or so and regular sessions to monitor the progress would be such a dream. 😅
I love these bits where reproductions of ancient weapons are tested by top athletes that specialize in the use of the great-great-grand-children of these weapons. An extraordinary collaboration. I don't know if Michael needs to write up one day, but it might well be based on what the two of you are doing here.
I think the achievable distance of these could be an indicator for their use against cavalry during a charge or skirmish, possibly even against horsearchers. Therefore giving the Infantry (Which were often armed with proper spears as well) the capability of cost-efficiently countering cavalry of all sorts (Without everyone being trained and equipped as archers/slingers, etc.), during a time in which the use of horsemen became ever more prevalent, whilst also retaining the ability to skirmish (and follow up charge) against infantry.
Love to see Tod try throwing them in the same condition - to get some indication of how good with them your opponent that has never seen that weapon before and may not be trained at throwing would be at throwing it back. I'd also love to see an attempt to throw a few at once and see how much that effects the range - seems like you could grip the fletching of at least 3 or 4 at once, and it might actually be easier on your joints to throw more at once - a bit more resistance can let you exert yourself more before it hurts.
You keep promoting your war hammers and after two weeks of swinging mine around, I got to say they are pretty damn powerful. Would be nice to see what they would do against mail and plate armor. Perhaps another series of videos? I really do love watching anything involving testing of basically any weapon.
The image we've had for years is that of the Romans perhaps casually lobbing a "designed to bend" pilum before closing up and doing all the real work with the sword and shield. But actually seeing Tod and others work their way through this reconstructive archaeology is making the battlefield look very different. Not only are the Pilum now legit armour piercing weapons going right through shields and impaling the person behind, but we now have clouds of plumbata falling from the heavens as the enemy approaches, and on top of that almost certainly even more stones and lead shot skimming in at bone breaking speed from the standard issue slings that all legionaries had. Add onto that the cohort level heavy support artillery and any front line opposing a Roman legion would have been thoroughly softened up long before they came anywhere near close combat.
This is all rather behind the times. Peter Connolly had established this over 20 years ago in his JRMES 12/13 article; none of the sources mention intentional bending with the exception of the hasta velitarius and his experiments with reconstructed pila failed to do so either. M.C. Bishop's work has continued further reinforced this such as (but not limited too) his piece for JRMES v18 2017. Tod, Mat, Thrand, etc are all treading broken ground a bit behind where current academia is.
Outstanding video and a big Thank you to Michael for his assistance here. Pretty sure I would not want to be marching across a field with about 500 or so men throwing those things at me and my friends.
Just wanted to say that I love your interruptions to show off some of your wares. Keep em coming. Like seeing you show off some of the unique pieces you have made. If you could provide more explanation like what it is and how it was used...even better.
Of course, they would not need to be as accurate because they would not be aiming at three men but rather wide lines possibly five or ten men deep. When I was a kid, we used to make something called a 'Bobby Arrow'. It was basically an arrow with a notch in it. We would wrap a knotted shoelace around the notch area then run the lace to the tip of the arrow. Then throwing it would more than double the distance we could reach. I wonder if they did the same with the plumbata. Has there been any notches below the fletches found?
Fun story Todd. I follow a brilliant Canada based author on Twitter. He posted a photo and I thought that I spotted one of your maces in his umbrella stand! I asked him if it was one of yours and he confirmed that it was and he called it his 'thinking mace' which I thought was pretty amusing considering what it was designed for :)
Congrats on the medal Michael ans thank you for helping to demonstrate this stuff for Tod its fascinating to see how far they can go in a skilled persons hands. Imagine getting hit with one of these at 100 yards. Even without a ton of energy left the mass of it and the trajectory it would still penetrate flesh easy enough and likely stick in a shield. The affect on the morale of opposing forces would be devastating.
Good video. I'm glad that you took most of my advice about plumbatae were designed and thrown. I have a paper on the subject in JRMES about to be released. Bruce Pruett
I don't know if you have covered this or not, but we are taught to throw a certain way in the Army. I figure similar may apply. We are taught to hold our non-throwing arm out at a 45-degree angle. They have amazing attention to detail, and are authoritarian in enforcement. I imagine the Romans were the same. Wasn't 45-degree their salute? Michael is a pro, so getting into a rhythm should be easy. The point of doing it this way is not so that individual throwers can maximize their distance, but ensure a minimum distance for all throwers, and a repeatable dispersion pattern from the formation. Its possible they had more then one angle, but fewer variations = better group accuracy.
Great video! As for the throwing them back, there is definitely a technique on how to throw them to get that far. The enemy would likely not be familiar with that technique so they wouldn't likely get it far enough. On top of that, I imagine there would be waves of them thrown, and if the enemy wants to throw them back, they have to lower their shields and risk getting hit my the next wave. Ignoring those points, in a ranged battle, the side that attacks first will whittle down the other side, decreasing the amount that can return fire.
1stly congrats to Michael, incredible results. also, cheers to him for being a great sport, not only that but showing where, as a professional throwers would say no. If he is throwing a comfortable 80ish meters, then expect a trained legionary to be throwing 50-80. Then Swapping to the pilum, 1st rank volley, they turn sideways and let 2nd rank volley, for 3rd + 4th rank to tank the enemies disrupted charge? I defnititely think the plumbata would be used very effectively in a quincunx formation (look at a 6sided die, the number 5 - or like a checkers board). Outer box, thows pilum, inner box plumbata, then swapping to pilum for a volley or 2 before reinforcing the line
I have greatly enjoyed watching you work through the "nuts and bolts" of this "simple device"; It's become very obvious they are anything but simple. I think a look needs taking a how the hard forged tips could be made in bulk and carried without the easily replaceable wood and feathers might be another. The Romans were really good at logistics, but they weren't superhuman; they made lists of all the impedimentia that a working legion needed to survive and prosper. Michael- congrats on your performance! Kudos to you and your trainer- when your elbow twinged, it was time. Awesome! Hope to see you back with some of the V2.5 plumbata!
Thanks for the experiment dear Tod. Regarding the length of Plumbata. You can surely contact Mike Bishop, an expert for Roman equipment. It's easy You have primary sources (pictures) where You can see how Plumbata are fitted behind shield! So now You have to find out size of the shield, construct it (or just draw it on the paper) and test it until You have the right size which is fitting the shield.
Tod, if/when you come back to this in the future, maybe you can find a lorica or other period armor for Michael to wear while throwing. I think it would be a safe bet being encumbered like that would reduce the range substantially.
Definitely an amazing example of why being part of a Roman Order of Battle was very ahem "labor intensive" ahem. Still I think this is spot on with all that's missing is your Battle Tuba!
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michael is a hell of a good sport and a hell of an athlete, throwing plumbata over a hundred meters casually is pretty insane. I hope you all will keep collaborating
When I heard 100m, I was shocked. All I could think was, "Seriously?"
Agreed, I love these videos and find them so fascinating.
I could barely throw a baseball 90 meters, much less a plumbata 110
And it's still possible to throw it way further, he's trained for 800g javelin = he need some power and a muscle mass, which makes him slow with lightweight plumbata. We had same darts as a toy when I was kid and 12yr old boy can throw them over 70 meters (with few weeks of practice ofc). So from my own experience, this weapon is very versatile and dangerous even in the hands of children. Specialized thrower would probably make around 150 meters and you also have to consider, that 2000 yrs ago, humans were way stronger in general and they were praciticing with weapons almost since they were born for entire life - I have a feeling, that the real edge was around 200 meters.
@@paveltomsik2610 i'd love to see a video of you outthrowing an athlete, you'll never post it though and just post unverifiable bullshit. all of what you said smells like bullshit and by god you'll never throw anything more than 100m
Congratulations to Michael on his javelin results. Fantastic video. I tried shooting a traditional bow at 80m and it's not easy to hit, I'm really impressed at how close Michael got to the targets with the plumbata.
Knowing that your elbow hurts when you throw that far is useful information actually. As Tod said, you wouldn't want to risk injury to throw them
great point actually! The more the user and tool are one, the more effective the tool.
never thrown anything hard in your life ?
I used to be a very good throw at school and when younger, went on holiday at 40 last month and decided to throw skimming stones for half hour, my elbow and shoulder still hurt.
Well, there's also the idea that if you don't throw as far you might get killed in battle. In general you don't want to risk injury like that in sports or work, but when your life's on the line a (likely) minor injury is better than death. Though this would likely apply more to dedicated ranged troops, rather than those expected to fight in melee.
You're very right that it is sensible to take risks in battle (or sporting competition) that you wouldn't take in training. But (as you of course already mentioned) any damage to your shoulder or elbow from throwing will surely upset your ability to wield sword and shield in the press of combat. And as a individual trying to stay alive, I imagine that I would value my sword/shield capability far above the payoff of maybe wounding one enemy before the lines even clash. Also, I assumed the plumbata was a legionnaire's weapon, not a dedicated skirmisher's? I guess I assumed that because it seems like an expensive instrument, and difficult to carry in large numbers. Also I think some roman historian described them being carried on straps inside the scutum? Now I'm just rambling, but did the romans even have dedicated skirmishers? Or did they rely on auxiliaries for that? @@patrickdix772
Tod always kills it with the quality content. Thanks to Michael as well.
Modern Olympic javelin throw is garbage, distance is the objective?
This is the only channel where I don't cringe at the merch ad, but instead drool in anticipation. Fantastic work Michael, congrats! Keep at it, both of you. These vids are always so much fun.
Try "Aging Wheels".
I got that hammer a while ago. It is an amazing piece of craftmanship
Congratulations to Michael on the Bronze!
I love this collaboration, seeing what people at top form can do is so informative and interesting, and I'm so glad he's willing to take the time to participate.
Congratulations on the Bronze finish! I'm excited if the extended length will affect the throw but as it is, 110m on a throwing weapon almost unthinkable before seeing it with my own eyes.
Its regular for fighting and straight flying hunting boomerangs to pass 100 meters pf straight flight. The woomera (spear thrower) used by the aborigines can propell a spear about 6 feet in length about 160-180 meters or more.
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367having had the chance to use an atlatl I too was surprised at how easy it actually is to throw a spear quite far once you get the extra leverage
I only managed about 50-60 meters but I was only 14 at the time and didn't have that many attempts before the next person had their try.
For context the throwing spears we had at PE I could only get to about 35-40 meters while being a few years older (and fitter) at that point.
I've been fascinated by the Plumbata ever since Tod introduced me to it in a formal video. It's crazy to know just how heavily armed Roman Troops really were.
Haha, yes. I always knew that Roman legionairies were feared on the battlefield, and rightfulyl so, but after every video *I* fear them more 🤣
Yeah it's like what, 4 or 5 plumbata, then a wall of throwing spears, the light pilum, the heavy pilum, and finally close to melee. That's a LOT of ranged nastiness from about 100m out to point blank.
@@vivalafiaga The plumbata was *instead* of the pila, not on top of.
Those darts can be slotted in a mid sized or larger shield, the gauls in particular used that tactic alot to hurl darts at enemy formations to soften them up or blunt a charge then draw swords. The Roman's picked up on that and their tower shields can store up to six along with two javelin on their back.
Fun fact on the pilum javelin, they were made with long blades so that when they hit an enemies shield, the shaft would bend the head to make harder to remove forcing the wielder to either drop it or fight with a handicap of a unwieldy shield.
@@eddapultstab2078 Oh god, not the bending myth again... No, the long shaft is so that, after penetrating the shield, the pilum carries on travelling and stabs the man holding the shield. The "bending" does not always happen, a straight pilum is just as encumbering as a straight one, it's easily rectified b straightening it over your knee if you do care, and is not attested in the sources. It's a myth that absolutely deserves to die.
I'm also curious for sources that the Gauls used plumbata (rather than javelin), and that legionnaries were equipped with both pilum and plumbata at the same time.
At Pennsic last August we were throwing plumbata for distance on the atlatl range, just to get an idea of how far they would go. One of the guys threw a plumbata 267 feet (81m) underhand from a flat footed stance. We all said "WOW!"
I think Todds obsession with plumbata is the most bad ass thing on the internet
Our boy Michael has only been going 3 years and already has a medal? Hot dang, well done! It's always a pleasure seeing him throw, regardless of the projectile.
I’m becoming more and more convinced that plumbata are just not something to be fooled around with.
The penetration power of the pilum is legendary, but imagine having just a two or three-rank deep veteran vanguard with four or five ranks of even just casually trained auxiliaries lobbing volley after volley of these little barbed nightmares at you…
Nah, they'd make for excellent garden toys, I'm sure...
When I was a child we had "Lawn Darts" and they were incredibly dangerous. They took them off the market pretty quickly.
@@act.13.41 I remember those. Never played with them, but I remember seeing once. I think I was eight or nine .
In the middle of the video I thought that plumbata would be the perfect weapon for civilians protecting a high wall. Automatic range and power advantage (goes through helmets and probably shoulder armor, if there even is one) and harder to throw back. And you can store a lof of them (compared to pilum) without having to care for e.g. sinews getting wet or bows starting to rot.
You can even put a few dozen of them on a catapult for extra fun.
@@act.13.41
Lawn darts are not dangerous kids are stupid.
Here's my two penneth (as an archer) at these distances you do not need large fletchings they have too much drag, if you look at modern arrows shot at 100m they are tiny in comparison. You absolutely need fletchings of a size to stabilise flight and be accurate, but these weapons are inherently inaccurate, so all the fletchings need to do is make it go in the direction it is thrown, experiment with fletchings to find a compromise.
making them longer is not about fletching.
@@jonathangoliath91 ???? never said it was?? do you understand English?
Very good point, definitely something to play-with.
I think it was meant as a disguise for arrows. Since nobody would pick an arrow out of a corpse unless they have a death wish. Also the enemy will not wait for you to pull out an arrow out of the body much less plumbata. The end is made with the metal sharp pointy triangle tip so it works similarly as an arrow so even if you wanted to pull out the plumbata the pointy end would stay inside and since it penetrated the body it would also be harder to pull it out of the body.
Very good point your making
Fascinating vid Tod, and congrats to Michael on the bronze medal.
On the subject of these being thrown back - While it's certainly possible I have a hard time believing someone is going to bend down and scrabble around in the grass/dirt/ect to pick up something and throw it back.
In the context of a constant barrage of these small projectiles, stopping to scoop up something could easily get you killed or injured.
These projectiles are moving at a very human-scale speed, how much time do you want to be looking down at the ground to find things to throw back at your opponents instead of being eyes-up. Presumably able to intercept them with a shield, and just generally paying attention so you don't get hit.
I have no doubt that it happened sometimes, but in the context of a group of people rushing towards you flinging dangerous objects at you I don't think it would be a high priority.
Exactly what I wrote in my comment, it might have not uploaded properly. Also I thought that these are not as cumbersome to walk with strapped on your shield as a pilum would, although I have some suggestions on logistics and use cases of those too, front lines getting more pila from the back rows, rotating throwers, getting more from wagons behind the troops with possibly servants/slaves bringing them more and so on. Imagine these for the troops flanking a main force, throwing them to approaching skirmishing cavalry and such.
Couple of thoughts on this.
- You can pretty easily pick these up without looking down for more than a split second if you do it with a straight back, so long as you're not really tightly packed into formation of course. So I don't think you're in any more danger picking them up personally and if you're scared of being hit picking them up you'll be just as scared standing there to begin with.
- You need a bit of space to throw them a good distance so a group of skirmishers could throw them further than a shield wall in formation.
- If you select your target accordingly you needn't worry about them coming back at all. Throw them at cavalry. Bigger target, can't throw back.. Goody gumdrops.
@@SueMyChin Couple of quick points re: picking up:
1) If against a charging enemy then they would not stop to pick up anything. At longer ranges the darts will be landing at a shallower angle making retrieving harder, esp while gearing up for final run.
2) If enemy is in formation then slowing/stooping to pick up would definitely break formation. Formations with shields are not really flexible, and troops would have beedn drilled with that in mind.
Guys behind you walk you over if you try to pick something up.
@@SueMyChin what you've described is the difference between skirmishers and heavy infantry. The former absolutely would be great at picking up weapons like this on the move, while throwing them back. The latter would generally be marching in a tightly packed formation, and would be more interested in keeping cohesion and shields up. From what I've gathered just from these comments, the plumbata was a weapon for the Roman infantry, which would've aided in their versatility vs. other infantry, but might have not been hugely useful against enemy skirmishers to begin with, due to the lack of accuracy against loose formations.
Tod having a medal winning athlete throwing weapons from hundreds of years ago is really surreal when you think about it, and thats why i love this channel 😄
I fell honored that you took my objection about the Plumbata could be thrown back.
Glad i could help.
Always fantastic to see the power of the Master Yeeter Micheal.
The explanation Michael gives at 8:20 is something I'd never thought about, but makes so much sense in terms of pure mechanics. Looked him up and it turns out he's studying Physics, which makes it click into place lol
Yes, & he's right of course- since the throwing motion is circular, the equation is:
ω=V/r (& :. V=ωr)
where V=linear velocity of the plumbata head (& :. speed of throw), r=radius of the circular arc the head moves through, & ω=angular velocity (or how fast the arm & shaft are moving around the circle, in rev/sec)
So increasing the radius r will obviously increase velocity V, provided you can still move your arm as fast through the throw. Once the length of the shaft starts impeding throwing speed, the advantage is lost.
@@oijosh6286 Indeed. Similarly, the optimal mass for throwing something is such that its moment of inertia about your shoulder when held in the hand is a little less (but of the same order of magnitude) as the moment of inertia of your arm about your shoulder. If it's much more, then it slows down your arm too much and it doesn't end up moving fast enough. If it's much less, all the kinetic energy (or momentum) stays in your arm and the thrown object is left with too little.
The plumbata, by increasing the effective length of your arm AND having a heavy weight on the end, can hit this sweet spot while remaining lighter and smaller for practical logistical reasons.
@@QuantumHistorian 👍😊
Winging those darts way out that far and only being off by like a few meters is pretty darn good! Michael provides a real-life example for how we could revise certain types of weaponry in TTRPGs.
Facts
Seeing Michael throw really puts into perspective how awesome professional athletes are. It's poetic and almost frightening, the might, the precision, and the pushing of the human body to contort and put out the most amount of force in the shortest time.
Well done on getting the country a bronze at the Euro U20 Champs, Michael. Outstanding job 👍. You're not too shabby with a Plumbata either!
This series is an outstanding example the weapons as they were meant to be used. Probably not at the limits of his range but an experienced group, probably could do the full 80 at a block of approaching troops
100 is really pushing it, especially because you'd want to overshoot (as in hit the rear lines) rather than undershoot (hit the field. 80's probably the longest you'd do
It depends, this guy was really talented. If he practiced he could probably add another 20 or 30 meters to the throw no problem and legionaires would definitely drill to get their throws just right, maybe not this guy's peak but real close.
Another factor is this seems like a good weapon to throw at or from an infantry charge, which means the throwing back is reduced by the prep your foes have to be making for the clash.
So if you have your second (and subsequent?) line(s) throw a volley or two from 60 meters and closing, then when the clash happens, the foe will be less cohesive.
@@MonkeyJedi99 they were meant to be stored on roman and gallic shields for quick access and yeah they are pretty handy in a fight.
Yeah, that´s an area effect weapon creating an area you really don´t want to be in. Even slightly loosening enemy group cohesion right befor you go in for contact would go a long way.
Great, top tier content. As always, it was a pleasure.
Also, huge congrats on the bronze medal!
What a great young chap. Wins medals, helps the community with experimental archeology. This films are not really that sciencey, but I do believe that this is one of the best shots at proper experimental archeology that is out there.
Once again, kudos to you guys.
Awesomeness! As usual of course. Loving all the experimentation, walking the footsteps of the original developer's quest for the best designs makes it so much more relatable, it was the arms race of it's day!
Congrats on Bronze finish Michael!!! 👏👏 And thank you for coming back!
As always Tod premium content my friend, thank you. 👍👍
I like your films generally, but the ones with Michael are favourites. Experimental archaeology at it's best! And, we learn so much about capabilities, and possibilities that were unknown before. I like how keen Michael is as well. He might have made an excellent Roman soldier. Or, a Brit fighting the Romans!
One thing people should always remember when watching these videos is that both javelins and the plumbata were very probably used en masse against enemy formations, not targeting singular soldiers.
Love watching experts in their fields. Michaels natural athleticism and understanding of the physics and biomechanics. Tods vast historical and engineering knowledge.. this is what the internet was made for. Love it. Thank you both so much
thankyou michael! always a pleasure when you grace the channel. Congratulations on the bronze!
Congratulations on the results, Michael!
I love commenting. For the algorithm! Good show mates
I love how this isn't just a range test, it's an accuracy test too.
Which many will say "he is miles out" but when you are throwing at a block of 100-300 men, his accuracy is just fine.
I imagine throwing them back is a problem but staying in an ordered formation and throwing them all back is going to be impossible.
If your armour+shields are better and your formations are better you are going to get to throw more than they can throw back and you are going to have less casualties for it.
These practical demonstrations and research into historical weapons are so well thought out. The Armror's/Smith's perspective should be requisite in any discussion of ancient arms.
Always a good time when Todd and Michael play with throwables. 🙂
I spent a good amount of time researching the theories behind the plumbata for a personal project- there are three things that mitigate the ability of the enemy to throw them back. First, they could be thrown with a specialized sling, greatly increasing the range beyond the capability of the human arm. Second, they could be thrown during a charge much more comfortably than a pilum. If the charge was particularly long, the infantry could discharge twice or three times before engaging since so many more could be held behind the scutum. This would keep enough pressure on the enemy that they couldn't counter maneuver and- more importantly- couldn't throw the plumbata back. The Romans wouldn't be worried about one or two out of hundreds being thrown back into their lines. Third, in the best interpretations of the quincunx formation, that being the checkerboard of maniples, the plumbata would have been particularly deadly killing enemies who foolishly flooded into the kill gaps. The front ranks could throw them into the enemy from the sides while the middle rank (which would have just withdrawn from the front during a maniple switch, pulling the enemy with them) could throw into the enemy directly in front of them. The plumbata would then be retrieved during the next maniple switch.
Plumbata come up frequently in Gibbon's work; they seem to have a reputation from his perspective of being particularly deadly and widely loved by Romans. Praetorians seemed to enjoy their use for political assassination, which might be the only thing they were particularly good at : )
These collaborations are amazing Tod. We're getting so much practical information out of it. Long may it last!
Always love to see the pro using it!
Awesome! Great question to field. Always great to see Michael back!
I hope this series will have a lot more episodes. Todd's experiments and Michaels Chad throwing skills paired with the great mood of both is very entertaining.
So much to explore here!
I wonder, if you have a local Roman re-enactment class and if they would be willing to participate as well. A training regime of 3 months or so and regular sessions to monitor the progress would be such a dream. 😅
Getting a wider variety of people involved in these studies helps so much! Thank you for facilitating the cross disciplinary learning Tod!
I love this speer throwing arc! He's such a great lad and I'm really happy that he keeps coming back.
I can't tell you how much I enjoy these videos. I've been interested in the plumbata since college
Lovely stuff as always. Congrats to Michael for improving his record in competition as well
This javelin stuff is something I love.
professional athletes are amazing, again and again breaking records :o
Congrats to bronze, Michael!
Michael is a beast! Hurling stuff like that is murder on the shoulders and he makes it look easy. Bravo 👏🏻
Always a pleasure to see Michael on the channel!
I love these bits where reproductions of ancient weapons are tested by top athletes that specialize in the use of the great-great-grand-children of these weapons. An extraordinary collaboration.
I don't know if Michael needs to write up one day, but it might well be based on what the two of you are doing here.
I think the achievable distance of these could be an indicator for their use against cavalry during a charge or skirmish, possibly even against horsearchers. Therefore giving the Infantry (Which were often armed with proper spears as well) the capability of cost-efficiently countering cavalry of all sorts (Without everyone being trained and equipped as archers/slingers, etc.), during a time in which the use of horsemen became ever more prevalent, whilst also retaining the ability to skirmish (and follow up charge) against infantry.
Exactly, and cavalry wouldn't be able to throw them back, or at least not as an efficient counter-attack.
❤ Love this series with Michael! It is so nice to be able to remove the nagging _"possible lack of physical ability"_ from the variables!
Thanks all of you for another excellent video. Was going to say both but wouldn't want to forget the support personnel.
Love to see Tod try throwing them in the same condition - to get some indication of how good with them your opponent that has never seen that weapon before and may not be trained at throwing would be at throwing it back. I'd also love to see an attempt to throw a few at once and see how much that effects the range - seems like you could grip the fletching of at least 3 or 4 at once, and it might actually be easier on your joints to throw more at once - a bit more resistance can let you exert yourself more before it hurts.
You keep promoting your war hammers and after two weeks of swinging mine around, I got to say they are pretty damn powerful. Would be nice to see what they would do against mail and plate armor. Perhaps another series of videos? I really do love watching anything involving testing of basically any weapon.
Tod, most of what we know is from movies before you!
New to your site, but just amazed of work that goes unto each video.
Thanks to all involved!
Perfect timing. I needed this data for designing them in D&D
The image we've had for years is that of the Romans perhaps casually lobbing a "designed to bend" pilum before closing up and doing all the real work with the sword and shield. But actually seeing Tod and others work their way through this reconstructive archaeology is making the battlefield look very different. Not only are the Pilum now legit armour piercing weapons going right through shields and impaling the person behind, but we now have clouds of plumbata falling from the heavens as the enemy approaches, and on top of that almost certainly even more stones and lead shot skimming in at bone breaking speed from the standard issue slings that all legionaries had. Add onto that the cohort level heavy support artillery and any front line opposing a Roman legion would have been thoroughly softened up long before they came anywhere near close combat.
This is all rather behind the times. Peter Connolly had established this over 20 years ago in his JRMES 12/13 article; none of the sources mention intentional bending with the exception of the hasta velitarius and his experiments with reconstructed pila failed to do so either. M.C. Bishop's work has continued further reinforced this such as (but not limited too) his piece for JRMES v18 2017.
Tod, Mat, Thrand, etc are all treading broken ground a bit behind where current academia is.
@@docholiday7975 Do you have a link?
Outstanding video and a big Thank you to Michael for his assistance here. Pretty sure I would not want to be marching across a field with about 500 or so men throwing those things at me and my friends.
its so awesome to see michael still involved, great lad!
Just wanted to say that I love your interruptions to show off some of your wares. Keep em coming. Like seeing you show off some of the unique pieces you have made. If you could provide more explanation like what it is and how it was used...even better.
Congratulations Michael on your medal, and nice to see you throwing those plumbata with Tod.
Epic teamwork, great video Guys. Respect to Michael, that is one hell of a throw
Great video and well done Michael for your achievement.
Of course, they would not need to be as accurate because they would not be aiming at three men but rather wide lines possibly five or ten men deep.
When I was a kid, we used to make something called a 'Bobby Arrow'. It was basically an arrow with a notch in it. We would wrap a knotted shoelace around the notch area then run the lace to the tip of the arrow. Then throwing it would more than double the distance we could reach.
I wonder if they did the same with the plumbata. Has there been any notches below the fletches found?
Have you watched the throwing dart/war dart episode Tod has where he does something extremely similar?
I'll give it a search. Thanks. @@tylerphuoc2653
really nice of you, to give him some room to talk about his sporting achievements!
Outstanding! Thank you both so much!
Congratulations Michael on your bronze. Great vid as always Tod
Fun story Todd. I follow a brilliant Canada based author on Twitter. He posted a photo and I thought that I spotted one of your maces in his umbrella stand! I asked him if it was one of yours and he confirmed that it was and he called it his 'thinking mace' which I thought was pretty amusing considering what it was designed for :)
I really want to know how he uses it to help him think!
@@troydowns7748it's to help in conversation when the other party isn't thinking too good and needs an adjustment! 😂
Always entertaining and as always more than interesting.
Fantastic video guys !!!
I watched the other 2 videos as well! Awesome to see this expert with the expert. And congratulations on the bronze!!
this is great stuff, I hope this series of experiments carries on a long time across an even greater variety of thrown devices.
Congrats on the medal Michael ans thank you for helping to demonstrate this stuff for Tod its fascinating to see how far they can go in a skilled persons hands. Imagine getting hit with one of these at 100 yards. Even without a ton of energy left the mass of it and the trajectory it would still penetrate flesh easy enough and likely stick in a shield. The affect on the morale of opposing forces would be devastating.
Tod, will you ever make a video on slings vs plate armor? There a lot of arrows vs plate tests out there but i couldn't find one with slings 😢
These videos are incredible. Thank you so much for the effort you all put in to make them 🙏
Michael can basically play darts at 100 meters it seems, crazy stuff
Cool demonstration. Thank you.
Good video. I'm glad that you took most of my advice about plumbatae were designed and thrown. I have a paper on the subject in JRMES about to be released.
Bruce Pruett
This series is truly amazing.
I don't know if you have covered this or not, but we are taught to throw a certain way in the Army. I figure similar may apply. We are taught to hold our non-throwing arm out at a 45-degree angle. They have amazing attention to detail, and are authoritarian in enforcement. I imagine the Romans were the same. Wasn't 45-degree their salute? Michael is a pro, so getting into a rhythm should be easy. The point of doing it this way is not so that individual throwers can maximize their distance, but ensure a minimum distance for all throwers, and a repeatable dispersion pattern from the formation. Its possible they had more then one angle, but fewer variations = better group accuracy.
Great video! As for the throwing them back, there is definitely a technique on how to throw them to get that far. The enemy would likely not be familiar with that technique so they wouldn't likely get it far enough. On top of that, I imagine there would be waves of them thrown, and if the enemy wants to throw them back, they have to lower their shields and risk getting hit my the next wave. Ignoring those points, in a ranged battle, the side that attacks first will whittle down the other side, decreasing the amount that can return fire.
I absolutely love these videos! You'd have been a dangerous Roman legionaire, Michael!
this whole series has been very interesting, you both seem to be having a lot of fun doing it to boot
Who needs a Trebuchet if you have Mike 💪😁
I've been waiting for this one! good weather , etc !
Fantastic !!!
incredible throwing as always
Congratz Michael!
Congrats, Michael!
In excess of a hundred metres!! That is outrageous performance for a hand thrown device. Hats off!
Loving this series.
1stly congrats to Michael, incredible results.
also, cheers to him for being a great sport, not only that but showing where, as a professional throwers would say no.
If he is throwing a comfortable 80ish meters, then expect a trained legionary to be throwing 50-80. Then Swapping to the pilum, 1st rank volley, they turn sideways and let 2nd rank volley, for 3rd + 4th rank to tank the enemies disrupted charge?
I defnititely think the plumbata would be used very effectively in a quincunx formation (look at a 6sided die, the number 5 - or like a checkers board). Outer box, thows pilum, inner box plumbata, then swapping to pilum for a volley or 2 before reinforcing the line
Excellent video as always tod
Another great video Tod!! He sure got some distance on those for sure!!
I enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Congratulations on your finish 👍🏻👍🏻 another great vid 👍🏻
I have greatly enjoyed watching you work through the "nuts and bolts" of this "simple device"; It's become very obvious they are anything but simple. I think a look needs taking a how the hard forged tips could be made in bulk and carried without the easily replaceable wood and feathers might be another. The Romans were really good at logistics, but they weren't superhuman; they made lists of all the impedimentia that a working legion needed to survive and prosper.
Michael- congrats on your performance! Kudos to you and your trainer- when your elbow twinged, it was time. Awesome! Hope to see you back with some of the V2.5 plumbata!
Thanks for the experiment dear Tod. Regarding the length of Plumbata. You can surely contact Mike Bishop, an expert for Roman equipment. It's easy You have primary sources (pictures) where You can see how Plumbata are fitted behind shield! So now You have to find out size of the shield, construct it (or just draw it on the paper) and test it until You have the right size which is fitting the shield.
Michael - congrats and well done on the bronze medal !!!
Tod, if/when you come back to this in the future, maybe you can find a lorica or other period armor for Michael to wear while throwing. I think it would be a safe bet being encumbered like that would reduce the range substantially.
He has thrown in armor, and with a shield.
Both seriously hampered his distance.
Definitely an amazing example of why being part of a Roman Order of Battle was very ahem "labor intensive" ahem. Still I think this is spot on with all that's missing is your Battle Tuba!
Marvelous stuff!
Thanks for these fascinating videos, Tod&Michael o7