Why Tooru is the BEST (and worst) Villain in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
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- Опубликовано: 18 дек 2023
- Tooru is a love 'em or hate 'em character, let's talk about why you should do both.
JoJolion Retrospective Part 1: • A JoJolion Retrospecti...
JoJolion Retrospective Part 2: • A JoJolion Retrospecti...
This video is an analysis and discussion of Tooru, the main villain from the eighth part of the long running manga series JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, JoJolion, written and illustrated by Hirohiko Araki.
Music Used:
Persona 4 Golden OST
TWEWT NEO OST
Diamond is Unbreakable OST
Gameplay Footage is from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All Star Battle R
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The thing I like about Tooru is that he feels like an apathetic force of nature. His nature as a rock human means that he doesn’t behave or think in the same way humans do, he’s more “animalistic” for lack of a better term, and the way Wonder of U works feels like a natural disaster. Toru only cares about his objective and marches towards it like an animal on the hunt, not caring about most things that go on around him if they aren’t related to what he wants
I regards to that animal analogy I think it’s very interesting that Tooru’s main villain philosophy is anxiety. He talks about how he’s anxious about losing everything and how he’s scared which in a way is the only human aspect of him. Because despite being a force of nature every living thing is afraid of loss and it’s probably why at the end when Tooru does get cornered he tries everything he can.
Tooru could easily be one of the best JoJo antagonists ever if only Araki had introduced him way earlier in the story, for example, when Josuke and Yasuho went to the T.G hospital for the first time (I believe it was after the Fun Fun Fun fight???), feeding in bits of foreshadowing, and had given him more chapters dedicated to his relationship with Yasuho instead of shoehorning it in the very last chapters. That would've also made the romance between Josuke and Yasuho so much more interesting than what we got.
I hope when that when part 8 gets animated. After their done with the hell that is SBR. I hope DP do something similar to how they teased Kira. I haven’t read the manga so I’m not sure if Kira is teased in the same way. But one of my favourite parts of watching part 4 for the first time was watching Kira appear randomly. I know that type of teasing may only work for Kira. Due to the fact that Kira looks like you’re average businessman. But I just hope Tooru gets more love somehow.
@@brokenspike2768Kira was not foreshadowed in the Manga and first appeared later in the part
@@migne5676 Well I hope that means DP treats Tooru the same.
@@brokenspike2768 i hope so too, it’s really fun seeing him all over the place on rewatches
Fr man… they could’ve introduced him as this cool but iffy dude trying to win yasuho back. Maybe like a minor antagonist early on and the twist is that his “stand” isn’t a stand but a rock insect and oh shit, his dr. Boss was actually his stand! The truth is Araki probably didn’t come up with Tooru until very late
For me, he's more of a 'last villain' than a 'main villain.' He just happens to have a thematically appropriate stand, much like how Part 5 ended with Rolling Stone. If one of the major themes of JoJolion is "Sh*t happens to everyone, all the time," then it makes sense to close the part out with a guy who thinks that he's above that... like a rock on top of a hill...
All this could have been avoided if his flashbacks were about his relationships with the other doctors instead of the heroes.
Tbf he’s also the leader of the main villainous group of Jojolion. So he is the boss of almost every Jojolion villain. And he did fuck with the lives of the main characters (Kira’s mum, Yasuho bf, rai dad)
@@bulbasaurkindahawtngl2345About the last point, they know that. They're saying that Tooru shoulda had more flashbacks with the other rock humans to flesh him out more.
He's like Diavolo where his stand is more iconic than the user.
At least Diavolo was mentioned right from the start, and he makes an appearance around halfway through Part 5. Meanwhile, Tooru only appeared in the last arc.
As it should be!
The past must die.
No one will know much of the Boss.
I fell like in Diavolo's case that was intended. Like King Crimson was the true entity and Diavolo was just a vessel. Like he talked through King Crimson more than he talked out of his own mouth.
@@elimiller958 Yes! Finally! Someone gets it!
A dude playing a dude desguised as another dude!
I was going to mention, but every part of King Crimson is Diavolo at his purest. He is a demon who subverted his true self, mainly speaks and communicates through his stand and other intermediaries, and he always, without exception unless absolutely forced, will attack from behind despite being an extremely strong stand capable of punching through a human. Even when he is really there he will always find yet another mask to hide behind.
King Crimson is the definition of a coward that has every conceivable advantage, yet brings his own ruin by being so utterly paranoid. Exploited by the fact that he only ever, willing, approaches Bruno's gang *once* under his own identity, and that was only because Trish called him a coward and that he was so amped up in that moment. Turned out the one time he did approach them; was the time he absolutely shouldn't.
The fact that JoJo fans can passionately debate over the best villain is from one that just happened or ones that came out in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s is a testament to how well Araki writes his stories and characters.
Here's hoping part 9 keeps the trend going!
we need a female villain for part 9 😭😭😭😭
@@theguywho4sked I think it'd be really cool!!
@@theguywho4skedwe don’t. We need to figure out what the hell could top this.
@@mugenokami2201A female villain, that’s what
@@unioneye1087 nope. That just sounds too 1 note. They need to be far far more than just that
I think it was the fact that Part 8 held off for so long to have an iconic villain was what added more to the Tooru hate. Also every villain has been very charismatic and over-the-top while he mainly stuck to the shadows and had a grounded goal.
yeah this is the core of the issue. He showed up too late and lacks impact because of that. Even Diavolo got to do something halfwayt through the part before he officially revealed himself.
I just read through all of jojolion and gotta say I didn’t like him because he was just shoehorned in and it felt like he didn’t really do much, I like his character using people to achieve his goal but it was never expanded on and josuke had to bs his way to win, but atleast that was forshadowed. Wish we had more of him and would’ve loved to see his 89yr old stand more it’s such a cool concept.
@@sarafontanini7051 THANK YOU!!!
@@sarafontanini7051
Not to mention him and his Stand acts pretty differently, whereas with Diavolo; you can clearly tell him and King Crimson are exactly the same, it also fits pretty well with his mystical origin story.
I always assumed that Toru's charging station story was Araki's way to explain Wonder of U as a wireless stand instead of it being something actually important
Oh shit! You’re right! That’s the perfect explanation to Wonder Of U! The stand harnesses calamity like how the charging station harnesses the excess electricity! The fact that the stand still exists after Tooru’s death adds to that fact because even without the charging station there’s still electricity; just like how calamity doesn’t go away by killing Tooru cause it’s a fundamental part of the universe!
personally i think it's important for toruu character. He wanted fame and recognition and especially he wanted to be remember but because of his appearance that was negated from him. All his character is based on what we leave on this world and he let us know that he always tried to leave something on this world and because of past failure he will not stop with the locacaca
My brother in Christ, did you pay attention to anything in this video. Tooru doesn't care about leaving a mark on humanity and being remembered, he wants to control humanity and use them as a tool for his own gain and preservation. They are two entirely different motivations.@@tooru-kun4178
What an amazing video on Tooru, it's a shame xForts was hit by a train that was falling from the sky and slipped on a banana smashing his head across the pavement...at the same time. Truly tragic😥😔
So sad 😞
"CaLaMiTy CaNnOt Be StOpPeD"
@@luckluca8982 "tHe FlOW oF cALaMiTy wILl aTtAcK yOu!"
Wonder of u:Calamity is not a force for good
Tooru:nor does it care about evil
Wonder of u:Calamity is not a force fir good
Tooru:nor does it care about evil
So Tooru is such a master manipulator and gaslighter that he effectively warped the majority of the fanbase's perception of him, much like Funny Valentine
That's what i thought
Toru be teaching me gaslighting fr
Nah, he's just boring and lacks presence of other villains.
@@lakshaykochhar6799shut up lmao
Finally, more people talking about Tooru as a character. Very glad to see it
you really had to be around back when new chapters were releasing once a month to understand why Tooru is so hated
The fucking rock insects, man… I’ll never forgive Araki for giving us 6+ months of that shit
I waited till it ended to read it all without waiting, Tooru is still my least favourite, Wonder of U drags out even without the monthly breaks
@@gerharddamm5933 Exactly. Nothing like plot convenient rock insects to help Wonder of U attack Josuke and Rai after Araki realized too late that the stand has no direct way of attacking users unless provoked.
Exactly this, cannot be understated. When you spend a loooong time reading a story and getting invested in the ongoing plot threads/character dynamics, a chracter like Toru being introduced so late into it is literally calamity on the narative. If you were big into monthly discussion chapter by chapter, pretty much everything that you'd be invested in up until that point was essentially taken over or taken away by him. I think there is some meta intent around that idea of course, Jobin's death is all about that, but man is it hard to swallow seeing him retroactively insert himself into the plot.
I def notice that the people who like him seem to either be binge readers who got to take in the whole arc in one shot, or readers who were there but just not as deep into discussion and speculation. If you go into the finale without that long investment, it really is an incredibly fun ride. Kaato and Kei come back just to be killed? Honestly if you're binge reading why would you see that as a problem? If you were reading monthly but just passively enjoying it, you might not even remember them. It changes the experience entirely.
Honestly I dismissed Toru outright on my first reading, like, "Oh my fucking god just get to the end already, you're gonna take another 6 months to introduce me to another nobody?"
And, well... I got Josuke'd in the end.
Hopefully we get a perfect main villain for part 9
What if we get Wou again but now looking different as its physical is destroyed
@@BIGSHOT__
I Wonder why that could be a big problem HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
@@BIGSHOT__ withered wonder of u
It's gonna be Tooru again. watch lol.
@@OB.x to be honest its Just explained that rock humans turn into statues for an unspecified time
Personally, I think that the reason for Toru's interest in Yasuho being to the point that he's willing to delay his own false identity going to high-school is because he's scared of her stand.
A lot of that is based on the theory that he's the person that sold her the hair clip because it makes a lot of sense. As the internet got bigger Toru knowing that there's a stand user who can control it effortlessly even without realizing she had a stand would become a bigger and bigger threat. Her stand could easily unravel his web of lies, so he sold her the hair-clip to kill her without getting directly involved.
Then either immediately after she was hospitalized he learned she survived, and figured that she would be more useful as an ally than if he just killed her.
His fear is founded too because Yasuho's stand is a solid half of Go Beyond's ability to kill him.
Tooru would seem more prominant in our minds if he wasn't directly connected to Wonder of U.
This doesn’t make sense to me because Tooru is the one controlling and talking through WoU. It makes him more interesting if anything.
@@pee8607 Even though that's true, it makes Tooru more like a henchman instead of the main villain if that makes sense. There are 2 comments that mentioned how he could be a better villain. One of them saying to introduce him when Josuke is visiting Holly and have him pretend to care about her when he's just there to study her. That way it makes more sense to see why he's the main villain. The other comment said that he was a minor villain who want to get back with Yasuho and his "stand" was a rock insect. That way we just think of Tooru as like Joshu and would be surprised that he's the main villian.
@@pee8607Also a lot of people mentioned how he was only established in the last arc. Every other villain was introduced a lot earlier and established their power and/or dominance a lot sooner. To highlight Tooru's problem, lets pretend that Diavolo's fight happened in the island with all of Buccirati's team. No Risotto fight, no realizing Buccirati was a zombie, no fights between that and the Requiem Arrow, and his backstory was introduced there too. Diavolo would probably be a confusing mess of a character instead of the paranoid schizophrenic who wants to cheat fate.
Personally Part 8 was not about a main villain at least to me. It was more about the various mysteries that were presented and how each of them were solved. It was story about breaking a curse thus why Tooru probably was not revealed as the main villain until near the end. The focus I think was not supposed to be about him or the rock humans only at all but the breaking of the curse that was mentioned at the very start of the part if I recall correctly.
I think seven parts of having a main villain out there in the open and clear to see sometimes from the very start made so that it was not taken that well when a different path was taken. Also no matter who they are when an author tries something they have not done before it take time for them to get it right or at least to a point where it's properly refined to flow smoothly.
In hindsight, all I wish is that Tooru had a scene with Josuke while he's visiting Holly. Maybe Tooru was her nurse or delivering her food or emptying out her trash when Josuke arrives and bam a brief conversation between two strange dudes highlighting their differences. It'd be really ironic to see Tooru pretend to care for Holly and maybe trick us (and Josuke) into thinking he's a good dude. Shit throw Kei in there for the lols and have her tricked by the nice guy act too. Araki's still the goat and thanks for doing your retrospective, it was a great listen!
Can't at all agree with how his introduction. The only time people weren't sure about was whether or not he was the MAIN villain. As a villain in general, it was clear as day he was going to be one, but people were only unsure if he was the main villain of the part because of how unprecedentedly underdeveloped he was compared to other main villains. I even remember people wondering if Kaato was going to be the main twist villain or hoping Jobin would stay as one.
The way I see it, Tooru is a fantastic encapsulation of the rock humans as an antagonistic force. In effect, he’s metaphorically and literally a conduit for power, a living embodiment of chaos and upheaval, and doesn’t really act as an individual but as the culmination of previous rock humans. He’s the primary antagonist, but not the “villain” expected from Jojo’s. It’s like Star Wars but if Palpatine also played the role of Vader.
I agree with most of what you said and you did a great analysis. However I do think dreams and memories are important to him. I dont think he is stuck in the past or anything like that, but I think he cares about surpassing others dreams and memories with him being on top and surpassing those below him. Not really cherishing memories but viewing them more as trophies. Could be completely wrong but thats my view. Great work!
I agree, and while he may very well have been manipulating Yasuho it seems a bit extreme to assume he's lying about his feelings/ everything he says just because he's trying to control her. He could be telling the truth about how he feels, but his truth is inherently controlling. Rock humans are NOT human, but Yasuho helped him find the head doctor and in his rock human mind it could be "This person is of great use to me, this must be what love is". Its creepy as he's way older than her, but I don't think he like her BECAUSE she's a little girl but instead because she helped him. I agree that memories do mean a lot to him, and many of the rock humans, and its interesting to watch Tooru/Dolomite/Aisho struggle against their selfish nature.
@pannacottairl2781 exactly, it's a slippery slope to suggest that whenever Toru is speaking, he is lying
@@blueberryelf1150 To be fair at 24:40 Xforts mentions some stuff he believes Tooru to be truthful about, but I just doubt Tooru would be lying/gaslighting Yasuho to that degree. I think her not remembering giving him the "wireless charging" idea would actually support the view that Tooru does care a lot, so much so that he remembers things she didn't even think twice about. Idk, I hope people keep discussing his character tho as despite his many flaws he's my fav JoJo villain just for how much there is to discuss
My main problem is he comes out of nowhere in the final bit of part 8. I love his stand I just wish he was more of a presence in the part instead of just a final boss because the rock humans needed a leader of some kind
What i found ironic is that, to me, one of the motivations behind tooru was cuz people didnt take him seriously because him looknig so young, and most if not all jojolion fans (the 3 they are) didnt thought he was the villian until he appeard in the main cover cuz he was so young
yeah but thats kinda dumb. no one doubted that dio would be the main villain in the beggining of part 1 and he was like 12
@@gdxnskdifference here is that part 1 already establishes dio as the darkness to jonathan's light. Toru, for one, was a villain in the sea of villains and characters with questionable moral compasses in part 8. He also had a disarming aura around him, so at the very least people were only suspicious of him or didn't take him seriously.
I also think the op was talking about the fact that Toru wasn't being taken seriously as an engineer when he was pitching his idea for a wireless device or smth, as investors just looked at him as a young amateur, mostly cause of his rock human nature to age very very slowly
@@gdxnsk Dio was a weak bitch at the start of the part and didn't actually become a threatening villain until he put the mask on. Toru was threatening the moment he was introduced but was presented as a simple hospital worker. The only reason we doubted his and not Dio's villainly was how the story presented them.
yeah lol, i can remember a certain youtuber saying tooru was the "half part villain", and that jojolion still had one hundred more chapters of mysteries to solve
@@ABHytbut power isn’t needed to be an antagonist. He was the negative force in Jonathan’s life since the beginning.
I had a bit of an overload when first watching toru’s arc. And what i’m seeing now is that i was trying to find some humanity in his actions when, in fact, he had none. Thanks for eluding toru’s mistery for me😁
Also i think that at least we got a very fletched out wonder of you which makes the jojo villain trope kinda consistant
@@Old-decand since WoU is essentially Toru, he's also fleshed out in a way.
well there's some humanity in his actions, when he died. All the other villan gives pompous speech on how they should lost or how they can died after they accomplished their goal while Tooru cried for help because he didn't want to die and that's something very human
I wish Araki dugged deeper into Tooru and Yasuho past relationship, could have made the dynamic between Josuke and Tooru a call back to Jonathan and Dio's rivalry.
I think if Josuke and Tooru had at least some sort of physical fight, even without stands, the fans would have been drawn to them alot more.
I feel like he kept yasuho around because of her ability to steal identities. If he should ever have to skip town and start over its better to have someone on your roster that can make that eacape easier a little bit of being over prepared then under prepared
It took Tooru 60 years to achieve his plans because he was waiting for Wu Tomoki, for he has never known failure.
Amazing! Your videos rule! And your video on funny valentine is my favorite! He rocks! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Liking before I even watch cuz I respect the imidiately follow up to the previous video a week later. ❤
Love your jojo videos! Tooru deserves the recognition 😊😊😊😊❤❤❤
If Jojolion gets animated, I hope they sprinkle some Tooru appearances EARLIER in the story. Start with Lucy seeing him in 1941 as a prologue, then after the Damo arc, Yasuho has a lucid dream where she remembers meeting disguised Tooru as a kid, so that WHEN Tooru shows up in the hospital, the tension spikes as the audience knows this guy is the main villain, but the other characters don't.
Back when David Production started work on the Part 4 anime, Araki asked them to add Kira to the introduction of the part, and DP additionally added Kira in several little locations through the part. I wonder what kind of notes Araki will have for the Part 8 adaptation, and what things will DP add or remove. We shall see, in a decade from now, if we are lucky enough.
Well, I love that RUclips recommended this to me. Really good video! Thank you for making it.
I liked Tooru and the concepts behind him. Generally apathetic and exploitative towards what mattered to a lot of characters in Jojolion. Contrasting the main cast fairly well imo. The general themes of hope and human connections among Jojolion's humans with Tooru valuing none of those things beyond using them to further his own ambitions and thus becoming a decently formidable foe because of it. And Josuke being the story's physical manifestation of dreams along with his steadfast journey to find his memories contrasts Tooru's belief that dreams and memories are something that cannot be manifestable very well. A really good fight between a literal embodiment of hope vs a literal embodiment of calamity and defeatism
Tooru is also great in the sense that he was able to convince actual readers that he was human
Thanks for giving us your interpretation of Tooru. Feel like I understand him even better now!
Great analysis.
This was a good analysis
As someone who just recently read jojo part 8 a 1-2 weeks ago I actually really liked tooru and wonder of u when I read the arc to the point where wonder of u and go beyond are 2 of my favorite stands if not my outright favorites to the point where he might be my favorite villain
If Part 8 gets animated, I hope they reveal Tooru early into the show.
yeah that'd honestly make sense. kind of how iirc araki explicitly requested that davidpro foreshadow kira more for part 4
I think that Tooru not fitting the mold of the 'main villain' of a Jojo part that we've gotten from characters like DIO and others in the past parts fits the themes of Jojolion pretty well. I'd honestly say that the Rock Humans where the main villain as a collective, each one a cog in the whole Rocacaca scheme that is set to oppose Josuke and the Higashikata's at every turn. Tooru just so happened to be the guy at the top because of his direct development of the latest fruit, all because of Wonder of U's identity stealing abilities and his own research.
In a way Jojolion's main villain is more Calamity, specifically the calamity that the Rock Humans wished to bring onto the humans through the Rocacaca, which is why I think people cling onto Wonder of U as a face for Part 8's villain rather than Tooru.
I honestly want to thank you for making this video, since it’s one of the most well made analyses of Tooru’s actual motivations and portrayal as a character that I’ve seen. Especially addressing the common misconceptions about his goals and aspirations and explaining the truth of what Tooru actually wanted.
If I could share my thoughts on everything, Tooru honestly never struck me as the main villain of the part, but rather his Stand does. Wonder of U. Truth be told, it has always been and continues to be my belief that the true “main antagonist” of JoJoLion is not any one character but rather the fundamental force of calamity and curses in the world. It’s a story about breaking a curse after all.
That said, Tooru and how he utilizes this calamity energy, this curse amongst the laws of the universe, are a great way to cap it off in my opinion. Fighting calamity, fighting *logic itself* is a nigh impossible task in and of itself, and it feels akin to being faced with the types of calamity we face in our real lives. Tooru represents those impossible odds, that mountain of adversity standing between us and our own “dreams and memories,” trying to force us to give up and leave those dreams and memories as an unfulfilled legacy, something he views as weak and akin to failure.
Josuke, Yasuho, the Higashikatas as a whole, they all represent that blind faith that things will get better, no matter how bad it gets. The kind of hope that draws strength from facing adversity together with those you love. Love that Tooru, a rock human with no sense of empathy or unconditional compassion for others, cannot understand or overcome.
When no one else can understand, when everything is going wrong. You can rely on your loved ones to give you hope and consolation. You’ll gain the strength to carry on. That love is always there to lend a hand, in everything you do.
That is the wonder of you.
Babe, wake up, Xforts uploaded a full tooru analysis video right after the 2 hours Jojolion retrospective vid, we eating *GOOD*
I think Tooru is the best Mastermind boss character in JoJo's coolest villain stand design aswell
I think Toorus main problem is that you don't see enough of him. For example, imagine how bad of a villain Kira would be if you cut out every scene thats from his prospective. What I would do is have him show up way earlier (As many others have pointed out) and specifically have him help in a stand battle. What he would then do is beat the antagonist of that fight using his stand. And then lie about how it works to Josuke. Like he tells him it works based on proximity rather than pursuit. That way when you find out he is the Head doctor and Josuke goes after him with a plan to get around the proximity condition. He is then hit by calamity and shocked that what should have been a foolproof strategy failed.
The thing about "Toru is stuck in the past" is actually more interesting. The way I see it, it's a trinity of past, present and future - Jobin, Josuke and Toru.
Jobin is truly the one stuck in the past. He's held back by his childhood trauma, what Kaato pushed him through, forced to do battle with tradition while also following it to the letter. He wants to find a new cure for the Rock Disease, but he's already been forcing Tsurugi into the same upbringing that he lived.
Josuke of course is constantly living in the present. Not much needs to be elaborated on here that wasn't covered already.
Toru, as stated in the video, is the future. He's constantly ahead, constantly ascending. The rock at the top of the cliff. Miles ahead of humanity in terms of intellect, power and experience. Just like the Head Doctor, the future has no face, and no matter how much you chase the future, you can never reach it. Calamity is the future, the chaos of not knowing. This was Toru's downfall, as he thought he had control of the future. Only when he was defeated, he found himself reminded of his origins. If you keep pursuing the future, you only end up back in the past.
JoJolion, through this trio, teaches us that both the past and future are chaotic and dangerous, and that it's only in the present that we can find safety and confidence.
Finally, a more controversial villain than Diovalo 🥹🥹🥹
Actually loved toru the first time I read the manga but maybe that's because as I caught up with the manga, it was almost halfway through the wonder of u arc so his character is already being fleshed out and my reading experience was continuous.
You definitely have to give araki credit for one thing this far in a creator's work. You'd be hard pressed to see them. Usually try to make a villain or a part of the story so different as he did. For part 8 not only is the main villain. Very different from pretty much any other he's ever made. But also part 8 as a whole is very different than pretty much. Anything else which I think in principle is really cool.
I agree with the idea that tooru is more a force of nature than an actual villain. Misfortune and calamity is more of the actual villain. Unlike Dio or Valentine, events just kinda feel like they happen with wonder of U just being the center of it all (which really fits the theme of wonder of U).
In fact he really reminds me of kira in how all the seemingly random events of morioh could be traced back to him. Unlike kira tho, tooru wasn’t really given time to be fleshed out because of his nature of a twist villain. If he would have been given more time to have his goals, plans, and motivations explored I feel he could have been an even better kira.
Interesting point on Wonder of U vs. Josuke there
HELLO XFORTSSS
Quick aside Xforts i saw the chapter review on Patreon and genuinely I’m with you what could the rock humans possibly want? Lava rock blessing from the earth? Rock human cult who worships the lava rock? Rock human distant ancestor? Lava rock is a physical blessing from the earth?
I would hope part 9 would maybe flesh Tooru more. Maybe the main villain or someone who had a connection with him. Either way, Josuke is my fav jojo mc by far. I just love how well written he is. Honestly now looking at it, Josuke and wonder of u reminds of me godzilla and Koichi’s dynamic in Godzilla minus one
I hope he gets light novel or spin off where we can learn more about him
First the entire point of Jojolion was breaking a cure instead of it being one hero vs one villain.
Second he suffers the Diaovolo issue where we know more of his alternative self then him as the actual villain.
holy shit xforts has been COOKING
in the 20:55 minute, what is this OST name?
I do like Tooru a lot; What I think is a point of sympathy for him, is the fact that, as a rock human, his solitary nature is exactly a part of who he is; It's not his fault that he sees memories and human sentimentality as meaningless, as neither have ever existed within him. his dying moments of remembering a wasp are what really feel like they bring home that he almost seems remorseful that he both underestimated and never experienced the power of of those feelings. I don't think he's a bad villain; I'm not even sure I see him to be the weakest of the main JoJo villains, but we just didn't get enough time with him to fully see and appreciate him.
Mix feelings about him as whole.b Interested to see how the anime handles his character.
I feel like whenever I hear another person's analysis of Tooru and the ending of Jojolion, they end up telling a very interesting story, I only wish it was in the book. That's not to say these analyses are wrong, but that always try to stitch together bumps in the plot with themes and subtext. We can talk about themes all we want. The themes of Jojolion are interesting and lead to good storytelling, but subtext isn't text. When the events written on the page aren't working together there is a real problem with the story itself.
It doesn't matter how cool it is that the story connects to "I Am A Rock", or how Josuke represents emotion who is faced against cold logic, or how Rock humans are hard and dry, the opposite of soft and wet. If your main villain is established so late in the story that there isn't enough time to show the reader his goals and motivations, that is a problem that could only ever be fixed by a rewrite.
And that's kind of what a lot of people do when they try to explain and analyze this ending. Rewrite it, smooth out the rough edges. Whether it's someone emphasizing Tooru's obession with the past before humans took over, or when you emphasized Tooru's obsession with the futility of dreams, and the need to take action to shape the world. It's all reading into subtext and then placing it where the real text we never got should have been. That's cool for open ended questions like "Do Josuke and Yasuho ever get together?" but it's a real problem when the question is "Why is Tooru?"
It feels like Araki knew he should've established him sooner, which is why he writes in the whole "Tooru has been here this whole time" bit at the end, along with the Yasuho and Mamezuku flashbacks.
As a member of the Tooru Nation:
He could’ve been executed better, but I still love my rocky old man
Tooru is such a good gaslighted he even managed to gaslight the audience about his motivation 🤷♂️
as someone who is not a fan of JoJolion, i love the way Toru was written
but also at the same time i feel like his introduction as the twist villain was a bit late imo
overall a really good video. glad to see you clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings on one of my favorite villains in the series. However I find the title to be rather misleading and certain points made against Tooru don't really work as criticisms, but rather pro's for how effective and evil he is as an antagonist. mainly at 12:30 when you use the groomer aspect as a critic against him. if he was meant to be portrayed as a good guy, then yeah having him literally groom Yasuho would be a huge problem and a more than valid criticism against him. but since he's very clearly depicted as a bad person, and a truly despicable character you're meant to hate without any sympathy for, I don't see how him being a groomer hurts his character. if anything, it only makes him a more effective main antagonist. it shows how deplorable and malicious rock humans can get in order to get what they want, and thus, showing how Tooru is a prime example of what a rock human is.
I don't see how Tooru is meant to be a sympathetic character.
also to circle back to the title being misleading. the video is nearly all just explanations and reasons why he's such a good villain. unless when you mean by worst, you're talking about him being such a disgusting manipulator, which I already explained why that's not a negative for a villain. or if its about how late he's introduced properly, if so; I agree with that being a valid critic of him. IMO he should've been introduced in the born this way arc when Yasuho is going to the hospital to visit holy, a quick introduction to him passing by Yasuho while he's working and all we get to know of him is that he's Yasuho's ex would've been a really smart and subtle way to have him be in the back of readers heads early on, making the twist reveal only more effective.
Common XForts W
You know, I look back on part 7 and 8 and I think to myself, what can Araki do beyond this point? Like Toru and Wonder of U...what next? 😵😂
Here's a video discussion. How about going over character fashion and if they were accurate to the time period
In a sense Tooru is a little like Funny Valentine without the massive abundance of charisma. Both men say what they don't mean forcefully, but only the latter would speak it loud and with conviction, Tooru will only whisper it when he directly wants something or to hurt someone. Therefore what he says can never be trusted; all he is the top rock human who is going to shape the world with his immense wealth. A interesting paradelle to Kira being an immensely conservative individual, but actually seeks to rule the world in a very modern fashion of being the man never seen but always known. Just so happens his stand is the ultimate force of nature that is in a sense behind Tooru every step of the way.
He's a great villain in my mind because he is so alien and inhuman, portrayed very much as the pillar men were initially portrayed as these hyper alien individuals who behave in ways unlike us. His main issue is his very short introduction; which is perhaps the point. He only turned up at that moment because he expressly needed something, otherwise he would've never come. He is the creep that shows up at your doorstep, unchanging, perhaps under a new guise, to manipulate a old tool one last time.
Also, what I love about the second JoJo universe is that the main JoJo and the main villain got something in common with the main character. Johnny being a selfish ass only wanting to walk again and Funny Valentine being a selfish ass doing selfish things for the sake of the U.S. Josuke not having any memories and Toru having memories of the past and being stuck in the past. Like, we look at Jodio now and we can only think, what kind of person the villain's gonna be?
He didn’t tell that but Jojolion is maybe a manga about toxic relationship. Thats how I have read it. Josuke vs Tooru is more that a physical fight. Its also how people treat each other and how we love someone. I really think that Tooru loved Yasuho but his vision on relationship was not in a morally acceptable way. Josuke wasn’t a perfect guy too but he learned and have accepted to change and become himself. Tooru never was himself, he was acting for something bigger than himself.
And how can we lose someone else of we can’t love ourselves.
Unpopular opinion, but I really enjoyed the final conflict with him, Rock Insects included. It felt very unique, having the final stand use powers completely out of the user's direct control. I thought the rock insects were a fun way to introduce some more direct opposition from Toru without giving him more control than he should have over Calamity, while also bringing back the relevancy of rock animals. It makes sense Toru would have some hidden as a last-resort since his stand isn't traditionally powerful in an actual fight
I guess I wanted to believe his focus was on dreams and memories because his true motivation, to bring rock humans above humans, isn’t interesting to me. It’s not much better than the idea of him just wanting money. Maybe it’s thematically resonant with the point of the rock humans as a whole, but it’s still just not enough for me. It ultimately just comes down to a world domination plan. And even then, I feel like the Pillar Men did that better. The only aspect I think the rock humans did in a slightly more interesting way is how they try to blend into society.
You know, I always had a guilty love for Tooru. However, I think that if they animate Part 8, they should change up a few things that would likely make him a little more understood and liked. Say they introduce or mention him earlier, or they revamp a few parts of the relationships he has with the cast since those feel somewhat unnecessary.
"Good Twist villain"? Me and half the fanbase knew Tooru was the stand user of Wonder of U IMMEDIATELY after it was introduced. Araki can't write a twist villain to save his life. In fact, I remember most ppl (myself included) thought Higashikata Kaato was going to be the twist villain, and it would have been a better one, but NO, evil ex boyfriend it is.
Another issue with Tooru was that he was introduced too late into the show. Half the appeal of Jojo is its main villain, and Tooru can hardly be called a "main villain" when he was present for, like, 1/5th of the manga. Kira was present for HALF of Part 4 and people already agreed back then it was too little time for a main villain.
I think it would be interesting of wou was a stand with no user.
so, is this new or just the Toru section from the retrospective?
So Tooru's main reason for being a villian is so he can ceo grindset his way into society?
Only Jojo villains death I found sad
You made a point that people think tooru’s dreams and memories is in reference to him being stuck in the past, then tore down that argument. But I think the usage of the word dreams in conjunction with memories tells us not that he’s stuck in the past, but that he aspires bring the world back to a time that he remembers fondly. Dreams being less about sleeping and more about aspiration
DDUDEE THIS IS FULL OF JOJOS CONTENT LETS GO
Pretty good villain in my opinion. I'd like to think that the reason Tooru is seen less or gets less time to be fleshed out compared to Kira or Pucci is due to the fact that Wonder Of U is also a form of conflict that needed some time and growth as well. While Tooru is the true villain, the big bad behind everything, Wonder Of U is Gappy's antagonist, the real and final battle between a miracle and calamity itself.
What I liked the most about Jojolion was how it involved multiple perspectives of different characters doing separate things at the same time. So considering the fact that Yasuho is more of a co-protagonist than a secondary character, it makes a lot of sense that during the climax she would battle someone who opposes her ideals (and has abused her for a long time), while Josuke is in a different place fighting someone who opposes HIS ideals. It might seem underwhelming because Jojo final battles are usually main protagonist with their stand vs main villain with their stand, but I thought doing it separately for this part felt really refreshing and unique. I agree Tooru should've been developed more, he's definitely not as compelling as previous villains, but I still think the ending fits thematically really well with the rest of the story.
That's all well and good but did you know bungee gum has the properties of both rubber and gum
I like Tooru and everything but one question for Araki... WHY THE BEARS? 😂
The bears allude to the Japanese expression "kuma taiji", or bear hunt/conquest. It's a reference to Wonder of U and himself; anyone who tries to hunt him or the Stand shall know that they're on the hunt for something extremely dangerous and with repercussions.
It may also reference the fact that, for Tooru, the end justifies the means. He doesn't care about anything else but himself and his objectives, just like a hunting animal.
Thank You!
It looks really cool honestly
chewiedog is gonna have a field day
I think Tooru's issue is his entire plan and motivation makes more sense if and when he explicitly breaks the rock human "rule" of not working with/empathising with each other to the same degree as humans. Diavolo is believable both as a self-important psychopath and the pinnacle of a sprawling empire that lays just beneath the surface, and if he wins he could go from on top of Italy to on top of the world. The slice of life scale of Morioh make Tooru feel like he's completely incapable of change on a grand scale. Rock humans "don't" work together, except when they do to get the fruit, but he doesn't ever acknowledge that they came so close to something great BY working together. It feels like if he won he really would just be one super rich immortal dude, not overthrowing the "above" species. There is zero indication Tooru would ever attempt to seek out and elevate other rock humans if he gained such a world-shaping technology, which would be fine if that was his character, but he's not around long enough to establish THAT as his defining trait either.
If he appeared earlier, maybe even joining Josuke and co fighting "against" the rock humans, which they either knew about and accepted because "the rokakaka comes above all" or that it's simply in their nature, or they DON'T know about BECAUSE TOORU CAN HAVE HIS STAND APPEAR HUMAN AND PARTAKE IN SOCIETY which is BARELY acknowledged as the horrifying trait that it is. Seeing Tooru or Wonder of U attempt to recruit allies in a species that does not care about allies or relationships would make the entire species more interesting. It would raise the question of whether or not Karera actually cared about Josuke, where currently the answer is just "No, obviously not they don't even love their children". They don't empathise with each other but DO seem to with a cause that effects all of them. This way personally even improves his "memory" at the end [And I do think his final fight/death is fantastic characterization] could either be a pang of guilt that he "betrayed" his own for nothing, OR the current memory from his "birth" showing that he has none whatsoever, and in the end he was correct that, at least for him, there was nothing but dreams and memories in failure, would make him a deeply fascinating villain.
Does anyone else find it Strange that out of the 27 stands introduced in part 8, only 7 of them got stats.samething with part 9 the five stands we're introduced to haven't gotten stats either (not including heaven's door). Has Araki forgotten about stand stats?.
He stopped doing them after part 6, probably because fights now are way more about using the abilities creatively than raw strength. The stands from part 7 and 8 got their stats from an official guidebook that was released when Part 8 was still beggining
We probably won't get any stats for part 9 until the anime or the next guidebook comes out
Stats were always flawed imo. Maybe someone else can come up with a better way to measure them, somehow. But to me explanation pages are good enough
As a anime only i didnt know who tooru is. I find it funny that he looks so friendly and harmless lol.
I havent read this part yet but can someone tell me if WoU (the character that mostly took my attention) has more screentime than Tooru?
Yeah He does
What I like about part 8 and Tooru, even if there are parts that could be improved about his implementation, is that part 8 isn't about defeating a bad guy like it is the case for pretty much every other part. It's a story about breaking a curse, Tooru isn't really an antagonist in the same way that Dio, Pucci, and Diavolo were, who served as the driving motivation of their respective parts, more he was a force of nature that provided obstacles to the true goals of the characters. He is as much the representation of the nature of calamity as Wonder of U.
No views, you say?
Happy to be here)
I just realized…. Josuke committed genocide on the Rock Humans, lmfao.
Honestly Tooru and the Rock Doctor faction in general are probably my least favorite villains in the series. Some were highlighted in this video and the 2 hour video essay you posted recently.
For me it felt so unnatural within the story and felt like Jojolion was two completely different stories stitched together. It didn’t help a lot of the Higashikata family had been sidelined because of the Rock Doctors and Rai to a lesser extent.
While Doctor Wu and Poor Tom were fun on their own, they still suck because of the overall story. The same applies to Wonder of U which is a fantastic stand even if the fight against it dragged out for way too long with the rock insects.
Tooru himself felt like a character Araki was speedrunning to be a main villain. As while there is an argument for him being the “last villain”, Araki goes out of his way to shoehorn Tooru into the backstories of Yasuho and Rai on top of already fucking up Josuke’s mom. This also applies to the Doctors, but it really highlights how the Rock Doctors are the weakest villain group in Jojo
I really appreciate Tooru's lack of ideology ranting and explain dialogue scene, which are all strong and important part of all Jojo villains, but Tooru is just this kind of monster that devoids any of that, no powerful weird interpretation of life, just a man who do stuff and destroys anyone who got in the way of his doing, especially the Poor Tom scene shows how little he cared about other rock humans, and with the "highest rock on the cliff" and "dreams and memories (are worthless)" speech shows he may even despise all other rock humans
Great analysis about Toru, and it was really fitting that you used Persona 4 OST on the background to fit his Gaslighting in the story and how the fan base has been gaslighting us with these many interpretations of him.
I would have loved Tohru to actually be interested in her without understanding why, which would explain why he went to college and did all that unnessessary stuff. He could have had a small existancial crisis, making him increasingly violent towards her because of this lack of understanding.
If he died while thinking in the end that he couldn't understand humans, but also himself, I really would have shed a tear.
So basically he works as the perfect vessel for the cast to complete their individual arcs rather then a compelling mirror to the main heroes world view
24:17 you're actually wrong here. It's just that hiwa's translation style which kinda sucks.
Here Toru is saying something like
-You're probably thinking right now about Josuke, about him being innocent... And where he might be.
-I know you do.
This makes me excited for Jojolands Villain
Whenever I think about tooru, I simple think “more” why didn’t he show up earlier.
The actual issue with Toru is not the writing of the character itself but an overall problem with jojolion's plot as a whole, because of the way it was structured, we felt it really had no direction because even if the characters had clear goals they didn't have a clear path forward to achieve them, it got to the point where we had no idea if toru was the main villan/last fight of the part, because beating him on paper, wouldn't really fix anything, it's like the first half of part 4 but the whole way through, I'm pretty sure Araki is well aware of this because of the way he started jojolands,
It'll be interesting if the intent was making WoU Josuke's ultimate foe and Tooru Yasuho's ultimate obstacle. Because Tooru and Josuke didn't have a memorable direct interaction.