At 2:00 you discuss her diving into new things so readily. By itself, that is great. The trouble I have with her is how in each new role she jumps into, she shows abandonment of the previous thing she was into. She leaves the 2 rivers and jumps headfirst into being an accepted. And treats Mat and Rand like servants - stupid servants. She leaves the tower and becomes an Aiel. And in the process abandons her training and her mission from the Amyrlin, and starts lying and using the power as a weapon. She leaves the Aiel and becomes the Amyrlin. And she immediately starts being condescending to the Aiel and trying to take advantage of their inexperience in negotiations. Every time she climbs the ladder a bit, she burns the rungs below her.
4:00 I don't have a problem with her being a know-it-all or arrogant either. She comes by the arrogance honestly, by actually being better at things. BUT 5:00 You say Rand gives her orders. Can you name one? I could give a dozen examples in the first four books where Egwene orders Rand around, and she actually hits him at least once when he won't obey her.
I agreed with the rest of your video, but I think you left out one important problem with her. That is the entirety of book 3, where she behaves like a spoiled child on purpose in order to undermine her friendships. It escalates through the book from "we're the same rank now" to "you're a manipulative bitch" (Elayne, the constant peacemaker, actually slaps her for that one). Whenever Nynaeve tries to make peace with her, it angers her for some reason, and drives her to be even more cruel. But the cruelty is done in a petty, childish way even as she boasts of being just as grown up as her former mentor.
I can't agree with what you say about her burning the rungs below her. She doesn't simply try to take advantage of their lack in negotiation skills, she wants to unite every kind of bending institution together as a way to enhance development and their influence. She also regars the hierarchy between Aes Sedai as flawed when compared to the one used between Aiel. This proves that she doesn't forget what she took from her past experiences. She also does this when uses the skills she aquired with the Aiel to surpass her torture in the White Tower. I love Egwene as a character for her ability to emerge herself in different contexts. She is able to completely submit herself to where she is and learnt from it, until she is ready to grow past that level. The Aiel Wise Ones tell Egwene to "forget she was ever Aes Sedai" when she starts her training and this us really what she needed to do. Whence she is ready, she starts mixing her exoeriences to become better as a person and more resourceful as one of the main characters of the preparations for the Last Battle. In my opinion, that's not a fault. That's an enviable skill.
If we can give Egwene a break for thinking of Rand as a childhood friend... then we can give Nynaeve and Rand a break for also knowing Egwene on a personal level and not revering her as the Amyrlin Seat, although Nynaeve shows required respect near the end. I also never forgave Egwene for her treatment of Nynaeve. I wish I could pretend it doesn't happen.
Fantastic video! Your final point was also my biggest problem with Egwene. Her dream attack on Nynaeve really bothered me too, and made me dislike her character for a long time. I liked her character other then that. She was confident and ambitious. She wanted more then a simple life in the Two Rivers on day ONE! She was always reaching for the most she could learn or get. She embraced the wide world and the adventure whole heartily. While she was often more confident then she deserved to be, she put the work in and learned everything she could. The other Two Rivers characters were all reluctant heroes, but she wasn’t. I felt her looking down on them at times was a reflection on that. Nynaeve was reluctant, but stronger in the power, and better at learning weaves. I expected them to bump heads and clash, but Egwene crossed the line with her dream assault, and it bothered me that she never made it right with Nynaeve.
I think you largely hit on my opinion of her: 1. She's amazingly talented, capable, and accomplished. Much of that vaunted arrogance is frankly earned as she can back it up, and some of it is required by the job (who in the White Tower would respect an Amyrlin who wasn't a bit arrogant?). It's pretty easy to watch her in action and be amazed by what she can do. The forces of the Light were definitely better by having her, unlike someone like Elaida (who did more to advance the cause of the Dark One than half the Forsaken). 2. She's just a terrible person by the end. She's the exact opposite of Nynaeve (aka: the best character in the books): she's embraced fully the White Tower's attitude of "my plans are the most important thing, people are tools to see it done and if some of them get squashed, so be it". Her and Gawyn deserve each other in that regard. 3. I mean, her title of "Watcher of the Seals" is made up and meaningless. The White Tower hasn't had control of the seals since... well, never. They gave themselves that title to make themselves sound important, yet she acts as if she expects everyone to kowtow to this made up title that they failed at before she got it, and that she failed at again AFTER Rand actually gave her the chance. Plus what she did to Nynaeve, and how she treats people, and... yeah. Definitely a person I want on my side in a war. Not a person I'm inviting to dinner in my home for any reason, ever. I respect her but don't like her.
I think I always expected Egwene to break free and be her own person and be super headstrong. But I feel like she crosses lines that are not quite right. I agree though, I absolutely respect her, and her journey. But yes shes not quite my favorite.
Great discussion as always! I love talking about Egwene, because she is so controversial. I think the main reason for this is we are all inherently triggered in 2020 by gender norms, especially vis a vis which personality traits are acceptable for which genders. It is absolutely correct that the fans judge her too harshly and many of the men in the series too leniently for their actions. I am largely an Egwene apologist, but she has clear character flaws. I have always thought of Egwene as Michael Jordan. She works harder than anyone else, commits 100% to getting better at what she does, “knows” she’s the best (and therefore becomes the best) at what she does, sacrificing anything (or anyone) and everything to achieve this supreme knowledge and skill. Yes, there’s collateral damage. She is inarguably a bad friend. She is unlikable at times (maybe even most of the time), but no one can deny she is the best for a reason. One does not become the best by luck or happenstance. She is what she is: the GOAT. Bask in her glorious power, her propensity to win, and the ultimacy of her sacrifice. Just don’t look too closely at her relationships or how she convinces herself the ends have justified the means. She’s not evil, but she sure ain’t Galad-good. She’s Aes Sedai-good. On the Egwene apologist side, I always wondered how much Egwene’s traumas corrupted her, maybe absolving her of some of her apparent ruthlessness. Padan Fain had such powerful negative influences on those he interacted with (Pedron Niall and various Whitecloak troops, Elaida, and the Shienaran prison guards). Maybe Egwene picked up moral corruption even as far back as the beginning of TGH. Then there were the months of slavery and torture by the Seanchan (which did NOT break her mind or will, by the way, because she’s MJ). That can’t have been healthy for her soul. Then there was the severity of training with the Aiel, which I don’t think anyone expects would have built compassion into her. The Aiel are known for honor, not empathy. And finally, let’s not forget Halima’s “massages” (Compulsion anybody?). All told, I’m surprised Egwene wasn’t an outright villain by the end. So Tai’shar Manetheren.
YES the training from the Aiel had to be harsh. A running theme in the WoT books is how teachers and mentors use degrees of brutality and punishments to teach discipline. I would not be surprised if that horrifying situation Egwrene dreamed up for Nyneave came directly from the Wise Ones trying to instill fear of Tel' in Egwene.
Gotta say, I really appreciate how much time you must put into tracking down great artwork and crediting the artists. Obviously the video is great, but I wanted to acknowledge that. There's some incredible work showcased regularly, and in this episode in particular.
I too feel conflicted about Egwene, though I lean more toward hate and frustration! I think on principle her actions and character can be great, but I thought she wasn't always the best written, all the characters have flaws, and they make mistakes, I don't mind that she's egotistical or that she turns on her friends, but I mind that it all gets brushed off, like for example her relationship with the wise ones, she disobeys them and lies to them, she then has to accept toh and all is forgiven, fine, the Aiel way is to not speak of a thing when the toh is met, convenient for Egwene, but then they continue to praise her and treat her as like she's the only good wetlander out there, Aiel way or not that's not how trust works! and of course you brought up Nynaeve and how she tries to put her down, then she manipulates Mat to have his army, yet neither resents Egwene for it, and that bother me! if the characters around her would call her out or if she does end up alienating them because of her actions, I think I'd like her much more! Not to mention how the Aes Sedai all seem to act like bewildered children around her and Siuan, one of my favorite characters turns from the determined brilliant manipulator to an Egwene cheerleader in no time, I don't buy all of that, though to be fair, it happens with other characters too, the boys also get people praising their every move, but never someone on the level of a Siuan! BTW, sorry I'm commenting on old videos, I've had them saved in my playlist for a while only now getting to watch them!
Personally, Egwene is one of my favourite characters. She is able to gather knowledge and experience form different cultures and situatuions to better herself and that which is around her. She also compares, for instance, the Aiel and the Aes Sedai to understand what is wrong or faulty in each of the cultures. She regards the hierarchy between Aes Sedai as flawed when compared to the one used between Aiel. This proves that she doesn't forget what she took from her past experiences. She also does this when uses the skills she aquired with the Aiel to surpass her torture in the White Tower. I love Egwene as a character for her ability to emerge herself in different contexts. She is able to completely submit herself to where she is and learnt from it, until she is ready to grow past that level. The Aiel Wise Ones tell Egwene to "forget she was ever Aes Sedai" when she starts her training and this really is what she needed to do. When she is ready, she starts mixing her experiences to become better as a person and more resourceful as one of the main characters of the preparations for the Last Battle. This can also be said for the eway she regards the Ajahs, being careful to embody the strenghs of each one and balancing them with a constant mindfulness of their defaults. In my opinion, that's not a fault. That's an enviable skill. I also disagree when you say she's arrogant. When I read the books, I feel like she is a woman who works really hard to better herself and become a more skilled and virtous individual, and therefor is able to compare herself to others. When she starts taking care of the White Tower she starts understanding that the Aes Sedai were actually petty and irresponsible, focusing more on their hunger for influence and power than in the looming Last Battle. Seeing that on women who should have been working towards the same goals angers her, and makes her feel supeior, not because of some inhate thing related to her, but because she, even as young as she is, is able to see the larger picture, and realise that other responsibilities must be prioritised. Parallel to this there's the Elayne and Nynaeve situation. Egwene realises she's learning and adapting faster than the other two, and therefor can we really blame her for setting the diference. What she did to Nynaeve was inexcusable, but I find her putting her distance between them more a thing of responsability than of lack of loyalty. She takes on the duty of the Amyrlin an so does what is necessary to ensure that all that must be is done is accomplished.
I went from loving her my first time to hating her after that. She's a horrible, self-absorbed, hypocritical, power-hungry brat. BUT she has badass moments against people we hate, so it's easy to feel like we SHOULD like her. It's easy to root for her against Seanchan slavers, would-be Aes Sedai puppet-masters, and crazy deranged Elaida. But when she's bickering with someone like Nynaneve or Rand it's just like...no...NO! You're wrong and you treat your "friends" like ass! So for me, I'm not bothered so much by her arrogance as much as I am with her hypocrisy and her dealings with her friends. I can never get over the fact that she made a TAR simulation to make Nynaeve feel like she was about to be VIOLATED by villainous men. This not to make a point to Nynaeve that TAR is dangerous as Egwene says out loud, but because as we the reader know, that she wanted to punish Nynaeve for almost outing her to the Wise Onesabout being in TAR against their express command that she promised to obey. And of course, Nynaeve didn't even know about that!
There seems to be an odd expectation in the fandom that the good guy characters should be nice for some reason. That seems to inform a lot of criticism of Egwene. This is weird to me, because I don't expect these characters to be nice. I expect them to not be evil, which is different. They're literally fighting to save the world. That's an omelet that is going to require breaking some eggs.
@@Gunleaver Spot on. I think the only reason Egwene does not become evil, as Darm0k puts it, is 10 years time. Egwene, to me, is far too reminiscent of Lanfear. Same sort of powers, same level of power, same lust for power, same stubbornness, same sort of charm, and once she decides you should love her... you better love her, else she could snap and take you out. Just as Lanfear had a romantic past and grew up as a childhood friend of Lews Therin, Egwene has the same with Rand. She also seems to have no real issue with potentially harming or killing people she perceives to be in her way, be they friend or foe. I believe that had the struggle against the Dark One had gone for 10 more years, Egwene would have turned and would have taken the White Tower with her. As is, she was ready to try stopping Rand and his plans on defeating the Dark One... by killing him. She was prepared to murder the only person who could help, all because she thought she knew better. She's a narcissist at best, and most likely an outright sociopath. Had Rand not included her in the final plans, she would have turned on him. There are forsaken parallels all around Rand. If you look at what the characters were prior to falling to the shadow and seeing why each chose the dark, I think these fit pretty well. Taim = Demandred. Logain = Sammael. Eqwene = Lanfear. Nynaeve = Semirhage. Verin = Mesaana. Aviendha = Graendal. Had Rand handled each as Lews Therin did, each would have fallen to the dark in the same manner. In fact, we actually see this in the case of Taim. In some ways, I think we were witnessing the beginning of Egwene's shift. The more and more they remained separated, the more Egwene questioned whether Rand could be trusted. The more she felt Rand needed to be controlled... by her. The more she was willing to risk the shadow overcoming them, by killing the one person who could stop it because she did not agree with him and felt spurned because he refused to listen to her and do as she wished. These same sentiments, and Lews Therin's marriage to Ilyena, were what eventually drove Lanfear to the shadow.
I would say that most people agree it’s fine for Light Side characters to not be nice. I actually love those grey-area characters. But it’s a whole different matter when the character isn’t honest enough with themselves to realize they aren’t nice. Egwene believes she is nice, fair, and selfless. She’s none of those things.
@@Unlitedsoul Excellent analysis. I've felt for years that Egwene was a 3rd age analogue to Lanfear. You're the first person I've seen say it as well. Great pickup with the others. I hadn't considered any of that.
YAAS! I wanted to hear your thoughts about her. Personally, my problems with her stirs from her attitude to the people around her. It's pretty clear to me that she was always a person who wanted to be at the top of the game. First, she wanted to be a Wisdom, then an Aes Sedai and lately the best one among them. This in itself it's not bad, the need for knowledge and wisdom It's beautiful, but the way she goes around that It's wrong to me. I may be wrong on this but she always seems to me like she disregards what is going around her and only focuses on herself. This took a rather nasty turn in book 5. She's experimenting with her abilities and the way she's just unaware of her own faults (like they didn’t happened a couple of months ago), It's just upsetting. Especially since she's talking to a woman that's a few years older than she is and was her mentor. It looks like she was thankful to be rid of that situation, making it look almost like Nyneave treated her poorly, when we know it's not the case. Her happiness (?) at being able to manipulate her really disgusted me. Why would you feel great with yourself by putting her out of her comfort zone for no reason whatsoever? What’s really confusing about her It’s that Jordan sends me mixed signals. One moment she says loves them and the next she manipulates Nyneave, wants to be treated as always and then talks down to her and Elayne. Am I supposed to like her? I don’t know. I'm not confident in my English grammar so sorry if what I said it's confusing. Not my mother language
The Seals... That whole ordeal makes me wanna scream. It just felt like they dumbed Egwene down to set up a powerful Moiraine scene. Yeah, it sure sounds crazy when the Dragon Reborn comes around to just say "btw I'm breaking the seals lol ttyl bye", and her first response was absolutely rational... But she is a dreamer. And she has a prophetic dream, a dream she _knows_ to be a prophecy, right after that happens, showing her that either the Seals are broken, or the whole world is gonna end. That _should_ have been enough for her to understand that Rand wasn't just mumbling insanities, that he had actually discovered something and he had a point, he wasn't crazy, just wrong: he thought he needed to break the Seals and go to war, she saw in her vision that the Seals should be broken _during_ the war. You would _expect_ her next action to be contacting him and saying "hey, I had a premonition, you were kind of correct, but also wrong; yeah the Seals need to be broken, but I should hang on to them until the right moment otherwise we are fucked, okay?" But no, her next reaction was to gather a massive army to try to force him to change his mind. She goes into the meeting fully aware of 2 facts: first, they absolutely need to break the Seals if they want to win the Last Battle and, secondly... She won't let anyone think of breaking the Seals. What sense does that make ._. She hadn't _forgotten_ about her dream, Moiraine some-fkn-how knew what she had dreamt and told her to tell them, it wasn't a deal of her remembering, just her being ashamed to admit Rand was right. The literal fate of creation in the balance, and she risks bringing death unending to everyone that ever has or will live, just to stick to her guns that Rand is wrong? Honestly what in the actual hell was that all about? The purpose was clearly just creating more impact for Moiraine's return, it wouldn't have been as epic if she came to a meeting already in full agreement, but maybe, _just maybe,_ they shouldn't have kept the discussion going on for Moiraine to solve in a way that implies that Egwene would rather see Shai'tan rule the world than say "you were half correct, Rand."
Yes, I am an Egwene lover and can't help it. Yes she is annoying at times and arrogant at other times, but so is every other character. I just do not understand the vehement hatred of some of the fanbase. I can understand not liking her or even not loving her, but hate is such a strong word. Without Egwene in the end, the world would of been doomed. Rand and Egwene almost have similar parallel plotlines in the story and no one says the same things about Rand as they do Egwene.
There's a difference between work/business relationship and friend relationship. When they discuss the funny things their dog does, it's a friendship talk. When they discuss the One power, it is a work relationship. On top of that Egwene is the work boss to Nyn & Elaine. For work discussions Egwene's final decision is Law. Not opinion or a good recommendation, but Law. Concerning Wise Ones - Egwene was a pseudo apprentice to the Wise Ones. They were her "boss" and she accepted the apprentice "job". She had toh to them under Aiel custom by her accepting apprenticeship. When Egwene leaves for Salidar, she leaves apprenticeship, so she pays up her toh bill. Out of respect for the Aiel, she could choose to have toh to an aiel, but not to wetlanders. Nyn and Elayne are wetlanders and Egwene doesn't owe them toh. This is my opinion which isn't quite the same thing as a fact. Egwene's opinions may not be fact either, but they are law (which seems like the same thing to her).
Agree with every point you make. I think of her as having a "chameleon" personality. I think there is a gender bias when it comes to skills within the fandom (compare to Mat's leveling up and how he is revered). I 100% agree with her failure to trust or apologize to Nynaeve and Elayne. But I would go so far as to say this is a pattern of behavior. Going all the way back to her not believing Rand in Caemlyn when he told his story about meeting the daughter-heir. In TGH when Elayne confirms the story, Egwene thinks to herself, I guess he was telling the truth. But she never mentions it again. (I know this is a small thing, but not being believed is a bit of a trigger for me, so I can't help but think less of her for this.) Then there is her treatment of Mat. Where Elayne and Nynaeve make the effort to apologize to him, Egwene just lets her toh go unmet. She should know better, and it should weigh on het conscience. Unlike some, I think Egwene is a well-written character. She is as powerful as any of our EFers. She is courageous and strong and smart. She just isn't likeable to me. Thank you for another great video!
Thank you! And yeah, I hadn't thought of it as a pattern, but you're right! That thing with Rand always did kind of irk me, but I just never thought of it as a pattern of behavior, but I think you may be right!
I think a lot of the problems with the ridiculousness of her leveling up is that unlike all of the other characters in the series it's never actually explained or even really aknowledged in world. I could easily see it work even with very minor changes, but imo. Jordan really dropped the ball there.
Your first part covered so many of my thoughts so well! My interpretation of the Incident in TAR was always that Egwene didn't intend for the men to do what they did. I think her intent was to conjure the men to just grab Nyn and scare her, but then it gets out of control. Egwene's thoughts afterward are about how she almost couldn't get rid of it, so I just assume that most of it wasn't her intent. I understand the complaints after that for her relationships with Nyn and Elayne, but to be honest, I'm not sure that it bothers me. I think her relationship with them cannot be the same after she's raised to Amyrlin. As you talk about with Rand, she has a position which requires her to act a certain way. You can see some traces of it in how she purposefully distances herself from the other girls from Emond's Field when they're in Salidar. She's the Amyrlin, and the Amyrlin can't be seen to have favorites. She tries to make a distinction with them between private and public, but they just haven't found that balance yet, and it's not just Egwene's fault. We see times Nyn oversteps bounds with her because of that relationship. ~J
Similarly to you I read these books in isolation and had no idea of the Egwene hatred until much later. Tbh it shocked me, Egwene was always my favourite character and I couldn't help but feel that the hatred cast her way would not be as strong if she was a man because she displays many characteristics that are praised in fictional male characters. I do agree with your criticism of her as a friend though, and really just her relationships in general. Her interactions with Nynaeve in the latter half of the series always bothered me, her lack of communication with Rand towards the end was frustrating (though I agree it makes sense that she didn't want to break the seals), her dismissal of Matt every time he tries to 'help', and don't even get me started on her 'romance' with Gawyn... the list goes on really. But I think it is okay to have a character who is flawed in this way, and as you point out she is young and still is by the end of the series. Maybe if she was given the chance to mature more she would have realised that her long standing relationships are just as important as her ones with the 'cool' kids, and her position as Amrylin.
Oh boy. Where to begin. Egwene’s strength is her leadership. Unfortunately, in choosing to dive head first into this role, she has to make the sacrifice of her personal relationships (for the same reasons as Rand, by the way). Rand doesn’t get nearly as much flack for his arrogance, or his abuse of his friendships. Do we expect more from Egwene, because female friendships > power is so ingrained in our society? Yes. Rand is not expected to maintain both friends, family, and save the world. Egwene is. It’s an unfair, and overly burdensome expectation to put on her. Egwene gives up so, so much in her very young life, and is penalized by this fan base because of it. I wish this video focused more on what makes Egwene so great, rather than dwelling on her as a shitty friend. We don’t get to see (often) how much it pains her to have given up everything to get where she is. Maybe if we’d been exposed to more of that - more of her suffering - this fan base would be more forgiving.
I think the reason her behavior towards her friends bothers me where Rand's doesn't is just... honestly, I'm not a huge Rand fan. I like him well enough, I guess, but I just never resonated with his character at all, so the good things he does don't really impress me, but the bad things he does don't really disappoint me either, if that makes any sense.
Rand is going crazy during his ascension to leadership, so there is some justification for sacrificing personal relationships. Also, Rand never sought leadership or power, Egwene did. Not saying that makes anything else right or wrong, but it is a massive difference in their situations that people might be responding to.
Did Egwene seek power, though? Or did she seek knowledge? When presented with the idea that she might be the first dreamer in hundreds of years, she chose to lean into it, instead of running away. When handed the Stole of the Amyrlin (after not even being aware that it was up for the taking) she again chose to become the best damn Amyrlin the world had ever known. Egwene didn’t seek leadership or power. It came to her, and when it did she rose to the occasion. She accepted the mantle of responsibility. And Rand making himself hard / shutting himself off to the people who loved and cared for him cannot be blamed solely on the madness. That’s doing a disservice to his character, and Jordan’s writing. You can’t respect Rand, and despise Egwene. And if you do, consider very carefully why you have these feelings.
@@Gunleaver that was a lot of words just to say "women should know their place." “he tries at every chance to give his friends their head” - Because their autonomy is something he **allows** them to have, not something they just have. Using a phrase most often applied to horses really shows how far above everyone else you believe Rand is. Rand is just a guy. A horrible guy, I might add. Mass murderer, bad boyfriend, bad friend, all-around-jerk, he has a lot to answer for. But it's okay, because he's The Protagonist™. “he has a mandate from the Pattern to use them for his agenda” - Because Rand is the Chosen One, he can just do whatever the fork he wants. No one else has any freedom to make their own decisions. -Again, Rand is just a guy. Calm down. Egwene is turned off by Rand’s unilateral use of power among the Aiel, and she’s the bad guy? She wants him to show humility, to lead by something other than brute force? How dare she. She sees this really disturbing change in the person she thought she once knew, and balks at it, and she's the asshole? Jennifer-Lawrence-okay-thumbs-up.gif I guess you just skimmed all of the Egwene chapters, because she transformed herself from puppet Amyrlin in Salidar to true Amyrlin in the Tower. It took a **lot** of work. Many hours of conversations with Aes Sedai in camp tents and Tower rooms before they realized that she was the leader they needed. And she WAS. But Rand just waltzes in after she's barely reunified the Tower and says “hey, I’m the protagonist, obey me” and she dares to defy his stupidity. Really, your rant says way more about you than it does Egwene. These people don't know they're characters in a story, and Egwene didn't read the Rand chapters. She didn't get the memo that she's just supposed to go along with everything he says because he's the Dragon Bloody Reborn.
Very fair discussion of a complex and divisive character. On the one moment that forms the basis of your change in opinion: first I agree that this is clearly the most valid criticism of Egwene and it isn’t tinged with double standards like several others are. I think my mind just glossed over that moment on first read. On reread it stands out. And honestly I have to blame RJ some for I think not realizing how egregious that was. It does seem out of character. And I will say that I think maybe Egwene just isn’t a great friend, but there’s a vast difference between being more focused on personal goals than friendship and doing something horrendous to a friend with slight provocation. So maybe your approach is the best one, forget it happened.
I think I do have to make a video about the... I think it's 5 things? I gotta write out some notes, but like, there are about 5 things I just skip when reading cause they are so frustrating/annoying/upsetting/out of character, etc...
Egwene is my favorite character hands down no bones about it. the way she treated her friends really has little bearing on how much I like her... yes she was arrogant and not a great friend but her rise from a cute little farm girl to the woman who almost singlehandedly repels the seanchan from the white tower is amazing. I will never back down from my love for egwene.. if my wife wasnt against me having another womans name on me id have an Egwene tattoo
The Gawyn thing was abrupt. Nynaeve DID need to be taken down a peg. I don't think it was cool to do what she did to Nynaeve to prove that point, but Nynaeve was also not grasping the danger of Tel'aran'rhiod, which seems hypocritical, but the lesson needed to be learned. This was evident when Nynaeve faces Moghedien several times and bests her. Elayne was going through some things as well, like that creepy thing she was doing to Thom in Fires of Heaven. Honestly, all three of them were treating each other like shit... so I kind of figure it's all fair in the end. These are all complex characters and I wouldn't have them be otherwise.
If I can piggyback on this one; I think in Egwene’s mind (and honestly, I suspect RJ’s) what Egwene did to Nyneave with the attack was no worse than what Amys did when Amys caught Egwene the first time. And I think that’s important as Egwene tends to mimic those in authority over her to assert authority over others. I think the foul taste lesson was far more necessary and important for Nyneave’s character development, and if it had been just that, I could appreciate her giddiness more because it’s like she suddenly had the upper hand on her big sister. She’s excited that she now has the authority.
@@Gunleaver Sometimes that's the price that's required. Someone has to pay the piper. I get that you admire Nynaeve, but there are all kinds of methods to gain your ends. If you fail to think like your opponent, then ultimately you must accept the consequences of being unprepared. Egwene could well have learned from the aiel that kind lessons can kill.
@@Gunleaver You leave the question hanging there: Who determines the right to teach lessons or to assert authority? If it's somehow alright for anyone to assume command in a situation then why it's it wrong for another in similar circumstances? You rightfully cited Rand as taking command in situations that have had mixed reactions and results, should he be reviled if he makes a miscalculation or comes off as overreaching? Sure, but let's save our indignation over the fact that other characters also are subject to human failings and foibles, hypocrisy and so forth...I understand Egwene has fucked up a few times, but to me that only enhances the fact that she comes off as a real person, with faults AND value. No great person or character is ALWAYS great. To be real, they often are imperfect fuck ups who deserve redemption as much as admiration. Leaders often times MUST assert themselves over others, even if those they intend to lead do not initially submit to being led. Egwene has the Talent of a Dreamer. Right or wrong, Nynaeve is only able to participate in Tel'aran'rhiod with the use of a ter'angreal. Egwene holds the authority in Tel'aran'rhiod over Nynaeve as much as Amys does over Egwene while Egwene is learning. That may rankle some people, but it's fact. Nynaeve SHOULD cede authority to Dreamwalkers as she lacks the natural Talent.
@@Gunleaver It feels like you're going into a logic loop where you don't hear what you want (someone saying they're wrong and you're right), then you change the subject to something else when you're edges start to show. My comment was addressing your contention that Egwene has no authority to tell Nynaeve what to do in Tel'aran'rhiod and I feel my reasoning was quite clear. Egwene has the authority of Talent and training where Nynaeve has neither at that point. Regardless of Egwene's moral currency in other regards, the fact is her assets give her authority much the same way a NASCAR driver should have the authority of expertise over a child on a big wheel (when it comes to driving). Take your feelings for either of them out of it and it makes sense. In terms of the narrative, RJ himself wrote it this way, and he cashed the sequence in when Egwene went on the path to becoming Amyrlin Seat. There's a reason for the sequence. Egwene is destined to save the Aes Sedai order. Nynaeve has a different path and focus. In order to achieve her ends, Egwene must break the relationship she has with Nynaeve and form a new one. Nynaeve would never accept the seat even if it was offered. Egwene being astute knows that Nynaeve will carry some influence because of her strengths. She cannot afford to continue a deferential dynamic with anyone let alone someone who had taken care of her as a child. Thus you may think it's ridiculous that Egwene asserts herself for, what is in your mind, petty reasoning. All the while you've become perfectly content to accept that Nynaeve should be respected because she's older and someone you "like" more as a character. I mean, sure...I disagree.
Nerdy, all of the faults you saw in Egwene are the reasons she was my least favorite of the EF5. I saw it from the beginning. That being said, she grew on me. Yes she's arrogant and flawed but she puts the needs of the world in front of her own. Sure she is wrong on some of the decisions she makes but she does it from a sense of duty. I admired her and by aGS she was a rock star in my mind. Like all rock stars she was bigger than life and imperfect. I hated her character in the beginning so much that I didn't even care when she got captured by the Seanchan. I know that is sad, but I just didn't like her and didn't care what happened to her. It was her time with the Wiseones that I saw that she started to grow up and gain some semblance of morals. However, you brought out some good points about how she treated Nynaeve and Elayne. I saw those as her overcompensating and trying to not treat her friends as special. Like most people try not to treat someone special you inevitably do exactly that, but in a bad way. This is natural, a natural human flaw. Many people accuse her of being a Mary Sue. I never got that because of all of the flaws she had and those flaws made her character development more believable to me.
Honestly the whole dream sequence with Gawyn is...disturbing. She admits to herself when she runs into him later, that she had memories of doing things with him he had no memory of. She didn't just dream of making out with him (or more) she essentially did, but he never knows. Yes, he wanted it as he pulled her into his dream, but it always seemed like making out with someone who was drunk and came on to you. For some people it's perfectly fine because obviously they want to, they came on to you. Yet come morning, they have no memory of it and you never tell them anything. Yet it's written to be some affirmation of his feelings for her and her romantic awakening toward him. She doesn't admit what happens to anyone, especially Gawyn, and it's become a scene I would rather forget even happened.
Honestly the scene with Nyneave and Egwene would have at least made sense for her character if instead of doing it to hide her secret, she was doing it to impress upon Nymeave the importance of being careful in the world of dreams. This is something the wise ones did to Egwene as well except she thought she was going to die instead.
I agree with your analysis of Egwene’s flaws in her interactions with Nynaeve and somewhat with Elayne, but I feel like you are completely missing the mark with her treatment of Rand. You point out the fact that they don’t actually have many face to face interactions once she becomes Amyrlin, but her condescending attitude toward him shows in many scenes beyond their one on one interactions... in her inner thoughts about him as well as her discussions about Rand with others. You also point out that she questions and pushes back because of her position and how important her title is, but you neglect to acknowledge that Rand is not just some guy from her home town.... he is the freaking Dragon Reborn! He is the reincarnation of one of the most powerful beings to ever exist. So important and powerful that the Wheel spins him back in not existence to save the world. Prophecies have been written about him, and he doesn’t ask for any of it. She has an important position, but there were not prophesies foretelling of her rise to power thousands of years old. It would be one thing if she didn’t believe he was the Dragon Reborn, but she KNOWS he is yet she still feels the need to be petty when it comes to him. Contrary to how it sounds, I actually really respect the character of Egwene... in everything except her interactions with the other Emond’s Field 5. I cheer for her with the rebels, the WT, and the Seanchan. But she really is hard to swallow when she acts so condescendingly toward the other main heroes. It’s like she is jealous or angry that they are all talented/gifted too and she is not the “special” one to come from her little farm town. I will also acknowledge that she is very young and doesn’t get the chance to eventually accept this, but it is really irksome to see her stop being a friend to so many people because she feels she needs to be more important than any of them.
There’s a double standard in fantasy where women who display the same characteristics as male counterparts are hated while the men are lauded for those very same traits. Egwene, and Sansa from GoT, are the biggest examples of this imo.
Egwene is definitely arrogant but I think that’s what makes her such a great amyrlin and aes sedai (and also why she needed to sacrifice herself in the end- her arrogance would have hindered the white tower moving forward and she served her purpose) I still love Egwene despite all her flaws, maybe even because of her flaws. Great video!!
@@r1ddhima Yeah, I don't see her arrogance in her position as the Amyrlin to be a fault. It's pretty much part of the job description, as far as I'm concerned! lol
Hmmm. I *think* the reason she treats the Wise Ones differently than her friends is that by this point in the story she views the others as her equals - iirc there is even a bit earlier on when Nynaeve has to deal with the fact that Egwene isn't treating her as a superior anymore, but as an equal. The Wise Ones however she treats as superiors. She doesn't tell her friends the secret because she feels guilty and wants nobody to know. She confesses to the Wise Ones because she's ashamed and knows that the honour system matters to them, and she's disappointed her superiors. That last bit is important and why she doesn't tell everyone else even when absolved of it. (Though absorbing the Aiel 'once paid it never happened' mentality sure was useful here :D ) She respects them as *authorities* in a way she doesn't Nynaeve or Elayne (which is not to say she doesn't respect them in other ways). Then after that she *becomes* and authority, and now views herself as on a level with the Wise Ones (whom she seems to respect a lot more than Aes Sedai). And this puts Nynaeve and Elayne as subordinate I don't know how *conscious* any of this is for her - *some* of it is. but other bits I feel aren't. You're kinda right it does colour her likeability as a person a little bit.
So the kerfuffle over breaking the seals specifically is pretty stupid IMO, and I'm chalking this one up to Sanderson. She has two visions pertaining to the seals. The first shows Rand walking over the the seals, breaking them as he walks. In the second she's clawing desperately at a wall made up of seals that she tries to tear down but cannot. With hindsight I think it's fair to say that Rand was supposed to break the seals, or at least he could have. The second one is open to more interpretation, but it strongly suggests that Egwene will try to break the seals but will be unable to. Looking at how things played out we can see that the first vision wasn't fulfilled because Egwene, having Dreamed Rand breaking the seals all the way back in LoC, decided that she didn't care for that vision, and so opposed him. It wasn't until Moiraine returned and suggested that it was her job as watcher of the seals to break them herself. Moraine is wrong, but only because Egwene lies to her. Moraine asks her if she saw who broke the seals "what did you see mother" she says. And Egwene answers that she saw Rand walking over the shards but not actually breaking them. This is wrong. Here's the relevant text. [Rand] walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step. ... shattering with his every step. Rand is breaking the seals. He was supposed to break them. But Egwene, for reasons that only really serve the plot later on, opposes this. She then either misremembers or outright lies to Moiraine about her vision, which then leads to the next bit. Rand hands over the seals to Egwene who then loses them. This makes no sense. If she's taking her job as watcher of the seals so seriously why would she let them out of her sight? Even for a moment! This is the most important job she had and she fucked it. If not for an incredibly contrived series of events involving Androl and a double whammy mask off mirrors, the shadow would have won. Revisiting that second vision tells us everything we need to know about Egwene and the seals. She will not be able to tear down that wall, she won't be able to break the seals herself. And she doesn't. Once again she passes off her most important responsibility to someone else (which at this point for me was infuriating). The point is that breaking the seals is not her job, it never was. And she's a pretty lousy watcher over them anyway, world's worst babysitter amiright? But! This doesn't make me hate Egwene, because it's not her fault. It's just bad writing. The reason I blamed Sanderson earlier is because I don't believe Jordan would've changed the meaning/importance of Egwene's visions, or had her misremembers/lie about them. To me this seems like one of the many changes Sanderson made in order to expand the material he added by necessity. We know that Jordan had only written a "fragment" of that scene thanks to Sanderson's blog post on the subject. So yeah I think Egwene gets a bad rap in the last chunk of the series largely because Sanderson decided to start fudging details. This is wholly my interpretation and everyone is obviously welcome to disagree, but to me the final 3 books show Egwene as a powerful channeler and effective leader, but also someone totally unqualified to be the watcher of the seals. Her decision-making flies in the face of her own Dreams, and when given a responsibility that should never have been hers in the first place she totally biffs. Through complete dumb luck, that can't be tied in any way to taveren shenanigans, the light comes into possession of the seals and is actually able to break them in time. So yeah. I get the hate, at least late game.
In terms of my overall feelings towards Egwene... I think I'm in a similar boat. I respect her, I want to like her, I cheer for all her moments of badassery. A lot of the criticisms directed at her (the ones you discount), I feel are at least overblown if not outright wrong (insofar as there's right and wrong when interpreting a work of art). And... I think most of the time, even after the turning point you note, which is a very valid one, I do like her. But holy crap does she pull some shit and it bothers me that, while she does suffer a lot over the course of the series, there are a number of pretty glaring missteps that she's never really forced to own up to (once again, her treatment of Nynaeve, and to a lesser extent Elayne, is probably the biggest). To address your final note, however... it only just came to me, watching your video, but I think maybe I can offer an explanation, though it's not a terribly flattering one. Egwene post-damane is, as you note and as many others have noted, obsessed with maintaining control. This is of course an utterly understandable reaction to the chilling ordeal she went through. But it does lead her down a dark path at times. In particular, I think now that it colours the entire way she approaches relationships over the remainder of the series. She demonstrates, time and again, a need to be the dominant player in her relationships with other people; she is extremely reluctant to play a submissive role, and isn't even really content to be an equal (though I stress I think this is all subconscious). Her relationship with the Wise Ones supports rather than contradicts this. Whilst eventually she comes to treat them with the respect they deserve and demand, she doesn't do this at the start, disobeying their command not to enter Tel'aran'rhiod without them without giving it much of a second thought. This is something that does, essentially, have to be beaten out of her. And even then, it's only at the end that she really treats them with full respect - she continues to play truant in the Tel'aran'rhiod, but eventually she does realize she needs to fess up to it and pay the price. That's why she never treats Nynaeve and Elayne with the same kind of respect, I think - they're never able to win (or force) it out of her in the way the Wise Ones were able to. And I do think you can see this in virtually all of Egwene's other relationships; the only possible major exception I can think of off the top of my head is Aviendha, though I'd want to go back and reread their interactions of Books 4 and 5 to see how that fits into this picture. Now, in Egwene's defence, it doesn't help that at a relatively early point in the series she becomes, as you say, the most powerful woman in the world, and the vast majority of the people she interacts after that are officially subordinate to her - nor does it help that one of her major arcs is reminding a good chunk of the same people of that fact, something she's fully justified in. But when it comes to her closest friends, it leads to her doing some pretty shitty things. There you go. There's my 'unified theory of Egwene', at least in outline. If I didn't drown you in that wall of text, tell me what you think!
Heh, resurfacing from all that text... lol! Just kidding, this was actually really interesting, and a take on this that I hadn't thought of, to be honest. And it's making me think of it in a new light. If I ever update my character deep dive videos, I may just have some more to add to the Egwene discussion.... you've got me thinking! (You should join discord so we can hash this out!)
I absolutely agree with all your points. On her quick rise to leadership I want to share my personal experiance. I enlisted in the Army at 17 and by the age of 20, after many ours of training going back to JROTC in high school to PLDC at 20, I was responsible for the wellbeing, behavior and lives of five other people. I was one who wasn't even good at it either. So between being woven by the pattern, recieving the best training in the world and being put in a sink or swim situation I have no issue with this aspect of the story.
I recently completed my first read through of Wheel of Time, and Egwene is probably the only one that I genuinely hated. Nynaeve, Rand and Mat were my favourite characters in all the books, probably in all of fantasy. I really liked Elayne and Perrin despite not always loving and sometimes hating the plot they are involved in. Even Faile who became annoying, I didn't mind her, I actually started to like her again by the end of the series like I did back during The Shadow Rising, it was how Perrin acted because of her that was more annoying than Faile herself. But Egwene I genuine hated her, I think it's because Egwene has moments when she acts like one of the Forsaken or Elaida with the scene in the Dream World with Nynaeve or her authoritarian attitudes in her attempts to have influence over all female channelers and her using methods like getting some of the sisters to swear fealty to her like Elaida wanted to do, the story doesn't criticise her for it, like the story does Rand or Perrin when they go to darker places. And she rarely fails like other characters and when she occasionally does it doesn't feel like a failure, she lies to the Wise Ones? She gets a opportunity to regain all their respect five pages later and she benefited more by not listening to them. She pretends to be Aes Sedai which would get her in shit lot of trouble? Nah, she's in charge now. The story sets up that she will die if Elaida gets her hands on her? Well scratch that, Elaida doesn't kill her and gives Egwene a perfect opportunity to undermine her. Egwene stresses that if she gets rescued from the Tower all her work will be undone? Well Siuan, Gawyn and Bryne rescue her against her wishes and there's no consequences to that, but she decides to punish Siuan for it anyway. She fails upwards to often in the series.
I think the reason that the liquid is the part that Nynaeve flashes back to is that Nyn is one of the toughest people in the series when it comes to physical danger and suffering. If you look at her character she is if not unafraid of death then at least she is willing to throw herself into it. Pain? She can push through that, even using pain as strength if you look at the confrontation in the test with aginor where she drove thorns through her palms. The moments she really collapses are the ones where she has a reversal of authority and or failing someone else. The reason why she doesn't hold onto the assault (which stops before it becomes clear whether they are going to eat or make grape juice out of her) is that the loss of her authority and the insecurity that that triggers in her is what she holds onto. The one blow that utterly destroys her is when she almost gets Birgitte killed. She is perfectly fine going back into TAR to confront moghedien even though the last time was a disaster even if she is narratively shitting herself as she does it because death and torture for herself is something she can work past. Its failing others that really gets her and also failing to live up to her own standards. Hence all the tortures that really stick with her are the ones that endanger others or force her to abandon others. Also people deal with being attacked in strange ways. I have dealt with alot of grape flavored survivors and you would be stunned how often the emotional impact is almost zero. And I don't mean they are not dealing with it, suppressing it, or other things. Some people just don't care. They are built of sturdy stuff or they just don't have weaknesses along that line. I know men who can have guns pointed at them and not have their heart rate spike above 60 and the same guy will have a nervous break down if you ask them to call a girl who slipped them a number or go for a job interview.
If you have a reddit, you might check out my response to this video on the WoT forums. Don't really want to reformat and write it for RUclips. As it is, I kind of just went into my ranting mode, so it might need formatted and cleaned up, and maybe it would be a bit more clear if I slept on it, re-read everything and then wrote it, but alas... You still might find the answer you apparently didn't really find when looking up other explanations for the Egwene-Nyneave interaction. Link: www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/iv6gbc/lets_talk_about_egwene/g5wn0ex/?context=3
The Doom From Latveria thank you!!! So thorough! I made a similar comment after going back to review the scene as well. It’s funny how fans can rewrite certain characters based on their own biases. Jordan was a master at outlining character motivation and showing how easily that can be misinterpreted when viewed through the lens of another character POV.
@@AmandaGrangerpanda Yeah, I am a bit surprised to find that some people found it hard to find justification for Egwene's handling of Nyneave, as if there was no possible counter-arguments. Even if you don't agree with the argument, these people couldn't even see the text to see it could be made properly? After all this nonsense, I felt I needed to point it out at least.
I'm just a WOT fanboy. I like almost everything about WOT. Other than some under cooked relationships feeling to sudden or some occasional vagueness of some plots, I'm good with it. Heck, I don't even mind the "slog".
She's a well written character. But she's also a terrible person. She didn't deserve most of the things she accomplished, but the pattern needed her. And when the pattern was done with her, she was discarded immediately. She threw away her old friends; aviendha, who considered her as near sister, Elayne and many others. Hilariously, she ended up with Gawyn. Very fitting ending for both of them.
I’m just gonna come out and say it: I’m biased when it comes to Egwene. I started the wot with the YA version of the novels, and from the two rivers replaces the normal prologue with a POV from Egwene that immediately cemented her character to me. I found out early on how others viewed her, but for whatever it says about me, I identified with her 100%. And more because what she does makes her a kind of grey character. I could understand why she lied to Nynaeve (though I admit I don’t have a super clear recollection of that particular scene; I’m at the beginning of a reread (tGH) right now, so I’ll revisit this topic...). My take at the time (I was much younger and used to lying to people I simultaneously feared and respected) was that she kind of resents Nyn at time. Mainly because she idolized her for so long when she was young. Then she’s introduced to this new culture and way of thinking and Nyn becomes a cardboard cut out of her humble origins. She divorces herself and who she is from the two rivers. It seems arrogant, but I relate to that so much. I come from a small town where people are backwards and haven’t been exposed to things I have been. I don’t resent or hate them, but it’s difficult to talk to these people after you have changed so much. And they stay the same. So not in that particular case I don’t remember, but in general, I sensed that tension because Egwene was Nyn’s apprentice, she planned to be her. But then her world view shifted. Nyn grew a lot as a person, but one of the hallmarks of her character is that she clings to her origins (even only grudgingly begins to enjoy dressing more extravagantly and moving away from her “stout sturdy two rivers” clothing). So it’s a generational clash of sorts. And I panicked with her when I thought Nyn was going to catch her in a lie. I loved it because it’s clear how guilty she felt, but she didn’t feel like she could tell her the truth because she knows as her former wisdom, she would disapprove. The ji’e’toh framework helps her confront this with the wise ones. It would’ve been harder with Nyn at that point. And she went too far to distract her in an immature attempt to avoid consequences. No doubt also a play for laughs on Jordan’s part, but I see what you mean. Messed up. I guess I just submerged myself so deeply in this characters that even their flaws are great. Because of how real they are and how clearly submerged Jordan was in their povs while writing them. Just my hot take. As I said, I’ve been defending eggy for ages, and I’m fine with people not liking her or pointing out inconsistencies. But for me they work. And I find too many parallels between her and me, be that good or bad 🤣😅
So I recently cheated and looked up this passage in the tor rereads and WOW. There is so much going on I forgot about. I used to love these rereads and I big recommend them to anyone: www.tor.com/2009/06/10/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-fires-of-heaven-part-7/ One of the things that stands out to me is that I remembered correctly. It wasn’t as out of character as it seemed. There was the shift in power dynamic between Egwene and Nyn, but beyond that this exchange with Moiraine in this chapter really got me thinking. Egwene is shocked that Moiraine isn’t concerned about Siuan because of their friendship. Moiraine basically says what everyone complains that is Egwene’s major character flaw: “There is a saying in Cairhien, though I have heard it as far away as Tarabon and Saldaea. ‘Take what you want, and pay for it.’ Siuan and I took the path we wanted, and we knew we would have to pay for it eventually.” God this is why we keep going back and rereading. This kind of depth of character and theme is insane. It’s intricate and I do feel it redeems Egwene and the rest of the characters flaws. They are just incredibly three dimensional. Nynaeve wasn’t even mad at Egwene for the stunt with the men because she wanted to desperately prove that she could handle anything that was thrown at her - even though she could not, and Egwene makes her admit that. But though Egwene is being hypocritical, so are MOST of the other characters at this stage and she does admit it to herself, but it serves a purpose. This is the same chapter where they find out Elaida deposed Siuan. So tl;dr: all in all I give this character development 100/10. And thank you for making me analyze this! It’s giving me life ❤️ these characters will forever feel so real for me, and this is why.
I don´t get the hate Egwene gets, she has the hardest route of all from emmons field mostly without the plot armor plus the most crappy love life. She absorbs all cultures she respect and try to take their best traits to better herself and her mission, but even after all her travels and changing she still holds her core personality (like the way she still wants Gawyn to sleep in an other room untill they are married etc.). In the beginning she is just that annoying girl but with every step she takes she grows. Sure there are some things i didn´t like, but who is without a flaw?
There's not a damn thing wrong with Egwene! She was a little girl who grew up watching travelers come through her house telling her stories. She and Naynaeve were connected because they were both born with the spark. She also is a dreamer so who knows how many versions of her own death she foresaw. She's an awesome character.
I wonder if Robert wrote her specifically like this because he was going to was planning her death. If she was greatly admired and loved like Nynaeve, the readership might have erupted.
it's pretty clear that egwene's arc is a mirror of rand's. both are village youths who become the most powerful people in the world. both have been collared. both have been boxed and beaten. both have antagonized, mistreated, and used those on there side, even their closest friends. the difference in how the we as readers react and how the fictional world reacts comes down to egwene being a woman and rand being a man. she never has to come to terms with the things you mention because she's becoming/being a leader, and rand is at best feared just because of who he is. whereas on this side of the page we naturally sympathize with rand and deride egwene because she "didn't have to work for it." i'm not saying one is better or worse, just that these things they do (good or bad) just make them parallels of each other.
While I've problems with some of her decisions/actions, I've never really had problem with _her_ . I rather like her[mostly] and, regardless of the story, my head cannon has always had her ta'veren.
Egwene's one of my favorite characters, always has been. I can't speak to whatever she did or did not do in the last few books very much, because I was mostly checked out of the series as a whole by then, and have retained almost nothing of it. But people were talking about her the same way earlier in the books series, and they're already doing it for the show as well despite that she isn't even out of Falme yet. And my point is this: you can criticize a lot about her, certainly. You can have endless debate about this or that plot point or character trait that makes her better or worse as a "person", better or worse as a character, more or less likeable. But my question is, should anyone even bother to engage in such debate, in the sense of taking it face value? It's undeniable Egwene gets scrutinized far more harshly than almost any other character in the series. But why? IMO opinion it's because she's special. She actually is written to be better, stronger, more capable, more resolute, than almost anybody else around her. She rarely fails, she never breaks, she rarely doubts herself, she asks a lot of those around her. She's usually the most magically powerful person around her, or as near as. Unlike many extremely strong-willed people in the series, her decisions are almost always correct. And people just respond poorly to that kind of character, when that character is female. It's not that she's more controversial as a "person" than anybody else in the books; it's that people are predisposed to find her type of character disagreeable, and so they start arguments both good and bad about why she's a problem. And soon there's no space left for people who want to just enjoy her character in peace, or even for people who want to despise her in peace, I guess. The arguments are all that exists.
How I see the characters ages (I just finished AMOL yesterday Going through RUclips looking for WoT content, thanks for these character deep dives they are eye opening for me as a first time reader) As of the start of the series Rand, Mat, Perrin, Aviendha age 19 Egwene, Elayne 17 Nynaeve 24 Morraine 42 Lan 44 Min 21 By the end of the series everyone has aged 2 and a half year's
There are some interesting insights in this I hadn't considered. I'll have to reread (again). But in a way, Egwene's human failings make me feel better. I *am* Nineveh. But I've always *wanted* to be more like Egwene. Maybe she isn't quite up on the pedestal I put her on in my heart.
Egwene is soo arrogant and snarky and never gets her comeuppance like Nyneve. It feels like Robert forgot her most abundant character flaw. When she becomes Amyrlin it feels unearned because her character does not change! In such a long series real character is a must for main characters, powerups should feel earned by virtue of character shifting with it.
I always find it interesting that people have so much empathy for Nynaeve, even though she walks around beating people with a stick (literally), but think Egwene is a jerk because she freaks out when her secret almost gets exposed. Put yourself in her shoes in this situation, she’s literally alone in a foreign culture at the mercy of very violent people (remember Amys invading her Dream and making her feel like she was going to die/be eaten) and she has the added pressure that she has no other way to learn how to use a Talent that could be a key to saving the universe. She’s lied to these people already and feels trapped by that lie, but has enough honor to take the consequences when she is in a position to do so. She also knows Nynaeve is impulsive and controlling and is quiet capable of deciding to tell the Wise Ones the truth because she thinks that’s for the best. Egwene isn’t perfect, but she’s not just being a jerk, she’s a young woman that has been through a traumatic experience who has put an unrealistic expectation on herself to essentially save the world by learning this ability that only these women can teach her and she’s dealing with a friend who ALWAYS thinks she is right and knows what’s best for everyone else.
This is a very fair assessment of Egwene's character that doesn't fall prey to the sexism many people don't realize influences their opinion of her. I do have some disagreements though. And in fairness, probably colored by Egwene being my absolute favorite character. Regarding THAT scene in T'A'R where she torments Nynaeve, I feel like it isn't quite as heinous as some people think. I mean, they live in a world that uses a lot of violence, corporal punishment, etc in ways that our modern society considers taboo now. And in particular, the Aes Sedai training system is set up around making young girls face their worst fears. You mention yourself that Nynaeve faces this particular fear in her Accepted test. So where is the condemnation for the Aes Sedai for putting Nynaeve and countless other girls through that sort of trauma? Is it somehow justified because there's a ter'angreal involved rather than a conscious choice about what the initiates face inside the arches? Well there's some hints that actually the sisters channeling to activate the accepted's test have some measure of control over what the girls face in there. And further, the Aes Sedai surely know what kinds of potential traumas the girls face in there, yet continue to put the girls through it. Is it excusable because they need to learn to face their worst fears to be good Aes Sedai? Well Egwene was teaching Nynaeve a VERY important lesson about the dangers of T'A'R that Nynaeve was being too bullheaded to acknowledge. Plus, Egwene stops the nightmare before Nynaeve is harmed. I also think taking Nynaeve's reaction into account is important here, because we should remember that issues of assault on women revolve around the affect it has on the woman, rather than the intentions behind the behavior. And as you note, when Nynaeve remembers this moment, she remembers a trauma no worse than being forced to drink a foul potion. Clearly the threat of assault did not have a long-lasting traumatic effect on Nynaeve. Egwene knows Nynaeve. She knows the woman to be strong and brave to a foolhardy degree, and also resilient. I don't think Egwene would have chosen this nightmare if she thought Nynaeve couldn't handle it. But she also had to pick something sufficiently frightening that it would break even Nynaeve's bravest face. It's a morally grey moment for sure, but not "unforgivable" imo. Also as regards your point about Egwene apologizing for lying to the Wise Ones and accepting her punishment but not offering the same to Nynaeve, we should take the power imbalances into account here. Egwene offers this showing of respect to the Wise Ones from the position of being their pupil. She is showing respect in a way that puts them above her station. Nynaeve, while once her teacher, has now transitioned to the status of peer. But Nynaeve sometimes has trouble remembering to treat Egwene as an equal rather than a pupil. And, to some degree, at this point Nynaeve is actually Egwene's pupil, since Egwene is teaching her to dreamwalk. Furthermore her need to show Nynaeve humility decreases shortly thereafter, as now Egwene is raised to Amyrlin and thus needs Nynaeve to not be even her peer anymore, but rather her subject. Same for Elayne, and everyone else, as you note. Regardless of their friendship, Egwene needs to not reduce herself to the level of peer with Nynaeve at this point because of her station, and ESPECIALLY because of how precarious her power as Amyrlin is early on. If even her friends aren't treating her as Amyrlin, then why should anybody else? Finally regarding her whirlwind romance with Gawyn, I mean it's hinted at from their first meeting that they have the hots for each other. Plus consider their ages; teenagers are the type to have whirlwind romance. PLUS if you're going to criticize this romance, then Rand and Elayne also deserve criticism for similarly whirlwind romance. And Nynaeve and Lan tbh, though they get more "screentime" to develop it -- same with Rand and Min really. I mean, Gawyn is so annoying at the end and his relationship with Egwene is her biggest blindspot in judgement, but hey everyone is flawed, and who knows how long they would have lasted as a couple if they'd survived the last battle. Anyways all of these things are certainly flaws in Egwene's character, but she's basically equally as flawed as all the other characters, and I don't demand perfection from characters in order to like them. Everybody has flaws. Everybody makes mistakes. What matters most is that someone is trying their best to do the right thing, even if they screw up sometimes. And that's something you have to say is true of Egwene: she's always TRYING to do the right thing.
Also people might find this thing I wrote interesting, as it addresses some complaints in other comments on this video www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/9qii3a/a_theory_of_heroism_in_wheel_of_time_rand_and/
I came to the opinion that Gawyn was the pattern putting brakes on Egwene, in much the same way the three main characters find a partner who complements their skillsets he falls in 'love' with Gawyn while in Cairhien (about the same time as the Salidar Aes Sedai choose her as Amarlyn (she is unable to go for an extended time) I think the Amarlyn is Ta'Vern (not Egwene), he was what she needed to protect her from the Bloodknives and other physical threats and was a weight holding her back and eventually removing her once she had/was doing what was needed to win the last battle. meaning that both the White and Black towers went into the next age on an evenish footing, with a strong and new leader not an entrenched political genius....
Apparently, I have been successful in purging the dream attack on Nynaeve from the story. Egwene lost me during the Wise One's line, and, certainly, with the stupid Gawyn interactions. I remember telling Jordan that Egwene wouldn't do that. He didn't listen.
Oooh, this just tugged at my memory, now I want to go find reference to that, because yeah... I don't know if it's about this specifically, but you're right. There is something in a dream about not telling someone something. Heh, super specific, I know, but yeah, I remember it, I just can't remember the exact details,
I think I disliked her _more_ after she became the Amyrlin in full, regarding her dealing with Rand. It's excusable for her to keep trying to humble him while he becomes the leader of Tear, then the Car'a'carn, then the de facto king of Cairhiem. Through all that she keeps telling him he is nothing and demanding him to behave as he used to, and that is _fine,_ that is exactly what you said, someone struggling to see someone they knew as a normal friend take on immense responsibilities... What annoys me about her is that, once she _herself_ is in a position of being hugely elevated, she never once _thinks_ (I'm not even saying she should have talked with him about this, she hardly had the chance, but she doesn't even _think_ ) "wow Nynaeve and Elayne wanna keep ignoring my orders cause we are friends, this must have been what Rand felt like, I totally made him being accepted as a leader by those people much harder than he needed it to be, it sure sucks when the people you depend on the most just laugh in your face and say you're just a kid, wow, I was a dick to him back then." No, she fully expects all her buddies to grow up, accept and revere her new position, getting indignant when Nynaeve and Elayne take too long to bow down to her. This isn't just an Egwene issue for me, basically _all_ characters who go through similar experiences never once in the series stop to empathize with the others (Rand could have related to Egwene regarding being captured and tortured, Perrin could have related to Mat regarding falling in love with someone of such an alien culture to his etc.) but it annoys me more in her instance because it isn't just a struggle she saw happening, she was aggressively hurtful towards Rand when he was trying to become respected, it just makes me think of her as an unsympathetic person that the thought never even crosses her mind.
Great video. I'm starting to become a bigger fan. I started disliking the supergirls after the way they treated Mat in Tear after he risked his life to rescue the. Then she manipulated her childhood friend, Mat, into going to Ebou Dar - in addition to the things you mentioned. While the other girls redeemed themselves and regained my love, my dislike for Egwene grew
My thoughts on Egwene are mostly negative as well. I suppose its because I read this as an adult and I can't relate to a 16 year old girl to begin with maybe. But I think I was largely just not into her whole storyline. In contrast I thought Nyaneve and even Elayne had more compelling storylines than merely finding a prodigy magician in a farm village. I've seen this storyline a thousand times with men an women its hardly unique by the time I read the series.
Nice call out to Keith Jackson (whoa nelly). Great video of and thoughtful analysis. It does not bother me that she calls down Nynaeve. I hate Nynaeve. She does to Nynaeve what Nynaeve has done to others, including Egwene. I do not mean the actual dream attack; but Nynaeve using her power to threaten and get others what she wants. Egwene is my favorite character. I think she gets a lot of hate. I do not think it is undeserved. She is eager to learn and willing to immerse herself with whatever group she is with. I think this is a positive aspect. She is a quick learner and very smart. She listens to Moiraine's politics/ Game of Houses lessons Moiraine gives to Rand. Egwene takes those lessons along with lessons from Siuan to be successfully survivor the political quagmire that is the Rebel camp, Eladia's tower and the reunified Tower. IMO, she has some of the best moments in the series: a) when she accepts she has toh to the Wise Ones for pretending to be an Aes Sedai; b) how she takes control of first the original ruling council in Salidar and then the Salidar Hall; c) her turning the tide with Eladia (especially how she stands up to Eladia at the second dinner; d) her battle with Mesaana in the World of Dreams; e) Egwene leading the fight against the Seanchan while at first suffering from the effects of forkroot; and f) her final sacrifice at the Last Battle - without which, the Light probably does not win.
Egwene's not a sponge, she's a mimic and a poor mimic at that, if you read her and know what it is she's doing while also noticing what she's saying, she's hypocritical about everything and she ALWAYS thinks she in the right, when she's never in the right at any point in the entire series. Oh and btw she doesn't have ANY skills at all. There is no scene in the entire series where she shows talent for anything except destruction. She has an intuitive ability in Dreaming but focuses more on Tel'aran'rhiod than that and is quickly eclipsed by Perrin in every aspect. Any channelling she does that people COULD attribute to her, is better attributed to others giving her hints or outright showing her what to do, she doesn't show she can create things, the most she does is show how to create the inverse of Cuendillar one time and then - after Moghedian is shown to her - can miraculously create the stuff. Similarly she KNOWS that Rand and Avihendia were supposedly having sex in the tents the previous night and would've questioned her 'friend' about it afterwards as she is a nosy bint who can't leave well enough alone. Do you really think that Avihendia would not have told her that she fled from Rand and did 'something' but can't remember exactly what it was? And having her ferret it out? Because that's what she does, with everything and even with things that are outside of channelling, she pries and pokes and invades others lives to get information and knowledge on them so she can do things herself. The most we learn is that Egwene is good at finding Ore and Blowing things up, anything else is suspect.
omfg i have a vry diff interpretation of why I hate her falling in love with gawyn. she is pulled into his erotic dream and experiences intense things without her consent. not his fault - he doesn't know she's actually there, and he is unconsciously dreaming. but it is his fantasized version of what she would experience in this scenario... which I cannot imagine would be remotely realistic, given the avg man's understanding of female physiology. but she does experience his fantasy of being with her, and then immediately around a random corner (not ta'veren my ass) smacks into this boy she's just lived fully holodeck erotic dream with... and she falls in love with him. okay... I could deal with this, problematic as it is. but the mere idea that she didn't outgrow this "relationship" by the next time they met is just absurd.
I don't think that what happened in TAR between Eg and Nyn was what Eg intended. I think that Eg lost control (as she was doing ALL THE TIME STILL) of her conjuration. She probably thought "something to scare Nynaeve" and TAR pulled from the darkest recesses of her subconscious mind, not from her conscious thoughts. TAR has a habit of pulling from the subconconsious mind of people who don't have full control over their mind and TAR yet, and Egwene was still a newcomer there, still had her training wheels on. To blame her for something that obviously had totally gotten out of her control... I'd like to see anyone reading this get drunk, spin around in circles for five minutes and try to shot a target on a wall 20 feet away and then go ahead and blame Egwene about control. Since we don't have TAR to go into.
Few fictional characters infuriate me more than Egwene does. Her level of entitlement and self-righteousness is like SO off the charts that it made her POVs kinda unbearable at times for me. Also...when you say you "pretend something doesn't happen" that doesn't really seem like a good idea. If we just pick and choose which character moments we like and ignore others then we're not really reading the original story.
heh, sorry, I kind of have to laugh at 'that doesn't seem like a good idea' cause... this is fiction. It's not a sacred text to live by. It's 15 books of fantasy, and the one paragraph that this particular thing happens in would kind of ruin a major character for me, so I omit it. It doesn't hurt anyone or the story. It's picking the olives off of the pizza before eating it. I still ate the pizza, I just didn't eat the gross olives. YMMV
@@LezbiNerdy Sure, but Jordan wrote that scene to be part of Egwene's character. To just ignore certain scenes because they make you uncomfortable means your'e mentally making your own characters, not reading the ones Jordan made. To each their own, though. I certainly don't have the right to tell people how to read.
but srsly, egw is the youngest person here until we get to olver! (maybe elayne is egw's age?) I've heard unending defenses of mat's behavior, who is 3 yrs older, but whenever egw acts like a teenager at all, she is just unlikable. she's a teenager! and she matures as fast or faster than most of the characters 3-10 years her senior
Whatever it takes and the common good are prevelent themes in the WOT. Egwene is an exemplar and is judged harshly by Jordan’s exploration. After all she dies and while the Aei Sedai needed Egwene the pattern didn’t leave her in charge. I love the depth of RJs characters and world. Hating Egwene or any other is justified as RJ intended
She is the Hermione of WOT. People don't like ambitious women. It's bigotry. Egwene is ambitious and she know what she wants. Nothing wrong with that. I have nothing in common with Egwene. She is so much better and more courageous than I am. I think a lot of the fandom is just jealous of her. Now I DO think the sexism of the book makes her big mistake that she does not worship Rand. I do have trouble with the writing around Salidar and when she is captured by Elaida but only because it is so long!
Good video. I agree for the most part and had to go back and find that paragraph. I remember this scene as Ny with a high pitched screech that just tugs at my heart. I don’t think you are harsh enough on her! Egwene is that hot overachieving student that knows everyone wants her and thinks she is better than everyone. She has some validation because she has had success and it only makes her worse. Her only redeeming quality to me is her work ethic
I don't dislike Eggy as badly as some in the fanbase, however my attitude about her does change. I see pre politician Egwene, she's irritating but still ok. Then there's Egwene the politician, while I understand that deals have to be made, I think she becomes arrogant and proud. The position practically demands it The Amerlyn is a ruler, she must be, but Egwene seems to relish her new power , and for me this is how she loses my good favor as a character.
No lets not talk about her. Lets bury her under a prison :D unless it's to complain about her lol On a more serious note tho. She thinks she's going to control the aes Sedai but after all siuan's training she becomes just like all the other aes Sedai to win them over to become amyrlin and stays that way. Unlike nynaeve who said it best. If she's to choose between saving people and becoming aes sedai? She'd rather not be aes sedai at all . Egwene loses herself to reach the top . Nynaeve didn't. That's why I hate egwene and love nynaeve lol. Even during the fight with messana in the dream, Perrin shows egwene how strong he is by dissipating balefire weaves and to her, he is in a place he doesn't understand lol. I mean bitch pls. Take a fucking step back and really think about it.
I think a lot of fandom's dislike of Egwene is because they see Egwene doing many things an 18 should not be able to do (both from a magical and character perspective). By the latter, I mean that she takes actions that would be expected of someone who has much more experience than does Egwene. In my opinion, the problem lies with the fact that a plausible in-world solution existed. However, Robert Jordan did not use it: tav'eren. Mat, Perrin, and Rand have similar experiences that belie their knowledge and experience; yet the story gives an out as it is due to their tav'eren nature. RJ said Egwene was not tav'eren. Had he said she was tav'eren, then some of the things she does without the typical experience and/or knowledge one would expect to accomplish such task could have been easily understood.
I on book seven and yes I agree egwene, is becoming marry-sue and a red coat. She is meant to die. Plus the aio I have huge beef is not funny at all.. they are op and there way of life is like the Spartans and they all die because of low population. Yes the maidens of the spear are some of my favorites from the books but as a military man that is one of the worst mistakes a culture of any kind real or fake can make. Having 2000 women solely dedicated to being an army man and not having children is plan stupid no society in history ever survived doing that why the author put them in the book like the unsully makes no military since whatsoever this culture should have died out years before the dragon be born ever came to them. There in a desert with thousands of slaves no water and half the women not bearing any children is just a stretch too far. And a society of 7,000 can take any other children and hide them without anyone else knowing yeah check please. My beef I have with these books or they're just too unbelievable they get real and then you come to the next chapter and it gets dumb and takes you out of the fun.
Eggy is a try hard, she would be the young woman crying after an exam because she made a mistake and didn't get a 100% on it. I actually like that we only get glimpses of what happens when she is collared, imagination can fill in the details in a way you cant write (kinda like the figs and mice). I love her right up to the point of the author change, Its unfair but I dont think Brandon was the writer to finish her story properly (no hate ment, i love Brandon and what he did for WOT, but nobody can do everything right, and maybe if RJ was able to finish i still would have problems with her). All that she WAS the Amerlyn crap just felt lazy to me, she does not treat her closest friends with the respect they deserve. She should know exactly what right the Aes Sedai have to have a say in the seals, this argument is only there to create conflict, lazy again imo. But then she has a spectacular ending so its certainly not all bad in Brandons books. Either way all in all I call her a great character, She is easy to attack, hard to defend as a person, but her heart is in the right spot, she does great stuff, has horrible things happen to her, and she has one of the coolest endings in the series.
I feel like Egwene is, along side being a horrible person, way too powerful. The story takes place over 2-3 years and in that time she becomes one of the strongest channelers, as well as one of the best dream walkers. IMO it's not very believable that in the few months she is actively training in the one power she becomes, at least in my interpretation, as skilled at doing complicates weaves, as well as multiple weaves at the same time as any aes sedai who typically take over a decade to become aes sedai and keep improving over their lives. As well as this she kills a forsaken in TAR, despite the fact that Messana was almost certainly there in the flesh, while also having hundreds of years of experience dream walking, compared to Egwene's one or two. It just frustrates me that Egwene becomes so powerful so quickly, while essentially putting in no work when compared to all the other aes sedai.
At 2:00 you discuss her diving into new things so readily. By itself, that is great. The trouble I have with her is how in each new role she jumps into, she shows abandonment of the previous thing she was into. She leaves the 2 rivers and jumps headfirst into being an accepted. And treats Mat and Rand like servants - stupid servants. She leaves the tower and becomes an Aiel. And in the process abandons her training and her mission from the Amyrlin, and starts lying and using the power as a weapon. She leaves the Aiel and becomes the Amyrlin. And she immediately starts being condescending to the Aiel and trying to take advantage of their inexperience in negotiations. Every time she climbs the ladder a bit, she burns the rungs below her.
4:00 I don't have a problem with her being a know-it-all or arrogant either. She comes by the arrogance honestly, by actually being better at things. BUT 5:00 You say Rand gives her orders. Can you name one? I could give a dozen examples in the first four books where Egwene orders Rand around, and she actually hits him at least once when he won't obey her.
I agreed with the rest of your video, but I think you left out one important problem with her. That is the entirety of book 3, where she behaves like a spoiled child on purpose in order to undermine her friendships. It escalates through the book from "we're the same rank now" to "you're a manipulative bitch" (Elayne, the constant peacemaker, actually slaps her for that one). Whenever Nynaeve tries to make peace with her, it angers her for some reason, and drives her to be even more cruel. But the cruelty is done in a petty, childish way even as she boasts of being just as grown up as her former mentor.
@@rustygray5058 YES! That book marked her on my dislike list, she was so mean to Nyneave
I can't agree with what you say about her burning the rungs below her. She doesn't simply try to take advantage of their lack in negotiation skills, she wants to unite every kind of bending institution together as a way to enhance development and their influence. She also regars the hierarchy between Aes Sedai as flawed when compared to the one used between Aiel. This proves that she doesn't forget what she took from her past experiences. She also does this when uses the skills she aquired with the Aiel to surpass her torture in the White Tower. I love Egwene as a character for her ability to emerge herself in different contexts. She is able to completely submit herself to where she is and learnt from it, until she is ready to grow past that level. The Aiel Wise Ones tell Egwene to "forget she was ever Aes Sedai" when she starts her training and this us really what she needed to do. Whence she is ready, she starts mixing her exoeriences to become better as a person and more resourceful as one of the main characters of the preparations for the Last Battle. In my opinion, that's not a fault. That's an enviable skill.
If we can give Egwene a break for thinking of Rand as a childhood friend... then we can give Nynaeve and Rand a break for also knowing Egwene on a personal level and not revering her as the Amyrlin Seat, although Nynaeve shows required respect near the end. I also never forgave Egwene for her treatment of Nynaeve. I wish I could pretend it doesn't happen.
Fantastic video! Your final point was also my biggest problem with Egwene. Her dream attack on Nynaeve really bothered me too, and made me dislike her character for a long time. I liked her character other then that. She was confident and ambitious. She wanted more then a simple life in the Two Rivers on day ONE! She was always reaching for the most she could learn or get. She embraced the wide world and the adventure whole heartily. While she was often more confident then she deserved to be, she put the work in and learned everything she could. The other Two Rivers characters were all reluctant heroes, but she wasn’t. I felt her looking down on them at times was a reflection on that. Nynaeve was reluctant, but stronger in the power, and better at learning weaves. I expected them to bump heads and clash, but Egwene crossed the line with her dream assault, and it bothered me that she never made it right with Nynaeve.
I think you largely hit on my opinion of her:
1. She's amazingly talented, capable, and accomplished. Much of that vaunted arrogance is frankly earned as she can back it up, and some of it is required by the job (who in the White Tower would respect an Amyrlin who wasn't a bit arrogant?). It's pretty easy to watch her in action and be amazed by what she can do. The forces of the Light were definitely better by having her, unlike someone like Elaida (who did more to advance the cause of the Dark One than half the Forsaken).
2. She's just a terrible person by the end. She's the exact opposite of Nynaeve (aka: the best character in the books): she's embraced fully the White Tower's attitude of "my plans are the most important thing, people are tools to see it done and if some of them get squashed, so be it". Her and Gawyn deserve each other in that regard.
3. I mean, her title of "Watcher of the Seals" is made up and meaningless. The White Tower hasn't had control of the seals since... well, never. They gave themselves that title to make themselves sound important, yet she acts as if she expects everyone to kowtow to this made up title that they failed at before she got it, and that she failed at again AFTER Rand actually gave her the chance.
Plus what she did to Nynaeve, and how she treats people, and... yeah.
Definitely a person I want on my side in a war. Not a person I'm inviting to dinner in my home for any reason, ever. I respect her but don't like her.
I think I always expected Egwene to break free and be her own person and be super headstrong. But I feel like she crosses lines that are not quite right.
I agree though, I absolutely respect her, and her journey. But yes shes not quite my favorite.
Great discussion as always! I love talking about Egwene, because she is so controversial. I think the main reason for this is we are all inherently triggered in 2020 by gender norms, especially vis a vis which personality traits are acceptable for which genders. It is absolutely correct that the fans judge her too harshly and many of the men in the series too leniently for their actions.
I am largely an Egwene apologist, but she has clear character flaws. I have always thought of Egwene as Michael Jordan. She works harder than anyone else, commits 100% to getting better at what she does, “knows” she’s the best (and therefore becomes the best) at what she does, sacrificing anything (or anyone) and everything to achieve this supreme knowledge and skill. Yes, there’s collateral damage. She is inarguably a bad friend. She is unlikable at times (maybe even most of the time), but no one can deny she is the best for a reason. One does not become the best by luck or happenstance. She is what she is: the GOAT. Bask in her glorious power, her propensity to win, and the ultimacy of her sacrifice. Just don’t look too closely at her relationships or how she convinces herself the ends have justified the means. She’s not evil, but she sure ain’t Galad-good. She’s Aes Sedai-good.
On the Egwene apologist side, I always wondered how much Egwene’s traumas corrupted her, maybe absolving her of some of her apparent ruthlessness. Padan Fain had such powerful negative influences on those he interacted with (Pedron Niall and various Whitecloak troops, Elaida, and the Shienaran prison guards). Maybe Egwene picked up moral corruption even as far back as the beginning of TGH. Then there were the months of slavery and torture by the Seanchan (which did NOT break her mind or will, by the way, because she’s MJ). That can’t have been healthy for her soul. Then there was the severity of training with the Aiel, which I don’t think anyone expects would have built compassion into her. The Aiel are known for honor, not empathy. And finally, let’s not forget Halima’s “massages” (Compulsion anybody?). All told, I’m surprised Egwene wasn’t an outright villain by the end. So Tai’shar Manetheren.
YES the training from the Aiel had to be harsh. A running theme in the WoT books is how teachers and mentors use degrees of brutality and punishments to teach discipline. I would not be surprised if that horrifying situation Egwrene dreamed up for Nyneave came directly from the Wise Ones trying to instill fear of Tel' in Egwene.
Gotta say, I really appreciate how much time you must put into tracking down great artwork and crediting the artists. Obviously the video is great, but I wanted to acknowledge that. There's some incredible work showcased regularly, and in this episode in particular.
Thanks again for another great discussion!
I too feel conflicted about Egwene, though I lean more toward hate and frustration! I think on principle her actions and character can be great, but I thought she wasn't always the best written, all the characters have flaws, and they make mistakes, I don't mind that she's egotistical or that she turns on her friends, but I mind that it all gets brushed off, like for example her relationship with the wise ones, she disobeys them and lies to them, she then has to accept toh and all is forgiven, fine, the Aiel way is to not speak of a thing when the toh is met, convenient for Egwene, but then they continue to praise her and treat her as like she's the only good wetlander out there, Aiel way or not that's not how trust works! and of course you brought up Nynaeve and how she tries to put her down, then she manipulates Mat to have his army, yet neither resents Egwene for it, and that bother me! if the characters around her would call her out or if she does end up alienating them because of her actions, I think I'd like her much more! Not to mention how the Aes Sedai all seem to act like bewildered children around her and Siuan, one of my favorite characters turns from the determined brilliant manipulator to an Egwene cheerleader in no time, I don't buy all of that, though to be fair, it happens with other characters too, the boys also get people praising their every move, but never someone on the level of a Siuan!
BTW, sorry I'm commenting on old videos, I've had them saved in my playlist for a while only now getting to watch them!
Personally, Egwene is one of my favourite characters. She is able to gather knowledge and experience form different cultures and situatuions to better herself and that which is around her. She also compares, for instance, the Aiel and the Aes Sedai to understand what is wrong or faulty in each of the cultures. She regards the hierarchy between Aes Sedai as flawed when compared to the one used between Aiel. This proves that she doesn't forget what she took from her past experiences. She also does this when uses the skills she aquired with the Aiel to surpass her torture in the White Tower. I love Egwene as a character for her ability to emerge herself in different contexts. She is able to completely submit herself to where she is and learnt from it, until she is ready to grow past that level. The Aiel Wise Ones tell Egwene to "forget she was ever Aes Sedai" when she starts her training and this really is what she needed to do. When she is ready, she starts mixing her experiences to become better as a person and more resourceful as one of the main characters of the preparations for the Last Battle. This can also be said for the eway she regards the Ajahs, being careful to embody the strenghs of each one and balancing them with a constant mindfulness of their defaults. In my opinion, that's not a fault. That's an enviable skill. I also disagree when you say she's arrogant. When I read the books, I feel like she is a woman who works really hard to better herself and become a more skilled and virtous individual, and therefor is able to compare herself to others. When she starts taking care of the White Tower she starts understanding that the Aes Sedai were actually petty and irresponsible, focusing more on their hunger for influence and power than in the looming Last Battle. Seeing that on women who should have been working towards the same goals angers her, and makes her feel supeior, not because of some inhate thing related to her, but because she, even as young as she is, is able to see the larger picture, and realise that other responsibilities must be prioritised. Parallel to this there's the Elayne and Nynaeve situation. Egwene realises she's learning and adapting faster than the other two, and therefor can we really blame her for setting the diference. What she did to Nynaeve was inexcusable, but I find her putting her distance between them more a thing of responsability than of lack of loyalty. She takes on the duty of the Amyrlin an so does what is necessary to ensure that all that must be is done is accomplished.
I went from loving her my first time to hating her after that. She's a horrible, self-absorbed, hypocritical, power-hungry brat. BUT she has badass moments against people we hate, so it's easy to feel like we SHOULD like her. It's easy to root for her against Seanchan slavers, would-be Aes Sedai puppet-masters, and crazy deranged Elaida. But when she's bickering with someone like Nynaneve or Rand it's just like...no...NO! You're wrong and you treat your "friends" like ass! So for me, I'm not bothered so much by her arrogance as much as I am with her hypocrisy and her dealings with her friends.
I can never get over the fact that she made a TAR simulation to make Nynaeve feel like she was about to be VIOLATED by villainous men. This not to make a point to Nynaeve that TAR is dangerous as Egwene says out loud, but because as we the reader know, that she wanted to punish Nynaeve for almost outing her to the Wise Onesabout being in TAR against their express command that she promised to obey. And of course, Nynaeve didn't even know about that!
Exactly this! Why do people always ignore this in her defense? It’s indefensible. Unforgivable.
Thanks for laying it out straight
There seems to be an odd expectation in the fandom that the good guy characters should be nice for some reason. That seems to inform a lot of criticism of Egwene. This is weird to me, because I don't expect these characters to be nice. I expect them to not be evil, which is different. They're literally fighting to save the world. That's an omelet that is going to require breaking some eggs.
They don't have to be nice. But you'd expect them to be nice to people who are supposed to be their friends.
@@Gunleaver Spot on. I think the only reason Egwene does not become evil, as Darm0k puts it, is 10 years time. Egwene, to me, is far too reminiscent of Lanfear. Same sort of powers, same level of power, same lust for power, same stubbornness, same sort of charm, and once she decides you should love her... you better love her, else she could snap and take you out. Just as Lanfear had a romantic past and grew up as a childhood friend of Lews Therin, Egwene has the same with Rand. She also seems to have no real issue with potentially harming or killing people she perceives to be in her way, be they friend or foe. I believe that had the struggle against the Dark One had gone for 10 more years, Egwene would have turned and would have taken the White Tower with her. As is, she was ready to try stopping Rand and his plans on defeating the Dark One... by killing him. She was prepared to murder the only person who could help, all because she thought she knew better. She's a narcissist at best, and most likely an outright sociopath. Had Rand not included her in the final plans, she would have turned on him.
There are forsaken parallels all around Rand. If you look at what the characters were prior to falling to the shadow and seeing why each chose the dark, I think these fit pretty well. Taim = Demandred. Logain = Sammael. Eqwene = Lanfear. Nynaeve = Semirhage. Verin = Mesaana. Aviendha = Graendal. Had Rand handled each as Lews Therin did, each would have fallen to the dark in the same manner. In fact, we actually see this in the case of Taim. In some ways, I think we were witnessing the beginning of Egwene's shift. The more and more they remained separated, the more Egwene questioned whether Rand could be trusted. The more she felt Rand needed to be controlled... by her. The more she was willing to risk the shadow overcoming them, by killing the one person who could stop it because she did not agree with him and felt spurned because he refused to listen to her and do as she wished. These same sentiments, and Lews Therin's marriage to Ilyena, were what eventually drove Lanfear to the shadow.
"Good guy" in the name.
I would say that most people agree it’s fine for Light Side characters to not be nice. I actually love those grey-area characters. But it’s a whole different matter when the character isn’t honest enough with themselves to realize they aren’t nice. Egwene believes she is nice, fair, and selfless. She’s none of those things.
@@Unlitedsoul Excellent analysis. I've felt for years that Egwene was a 3rd age analogue to Lanfear. You're the first person I've seen say it as well. Great pickup with the others. I hadn't considered any of that.
YAAS! I wanted to hear your thoughts about her. Personally, my problems with her stirs from her attitude to the people around her. It's pretty clear to me that she was always a person who wanted to be at the top of the game. First, she wanted to be a Wisdom, then an Aes Sedai and lately the best one among them. This in itself it's not bad, the need for knowledge and wisdom It's beautiful, but the way she goes around that It's wrong to me. I may be wrong on this but she always seems to me like she disregards what is going around her and only focuses on herself. This took a rather nasty turn in book 5. She's experimenting with her abilities and the way she's just unaware of her own faults (like they didn’t happened a couple of months ago), It's just upsetting. Especially since she's talking to a woman that's a few years older than she is and was her mentor. It looks like she was thankful to be rid of that situation, making it look almost like Nyneave treated her poorly, when we know it's not the case. Her happiness (?) at being able to manipulate her really disgusted me. Why would you feel great with yourself by putting her out of her comfort zone for no reason whatsoever? What’s really confusing about her It’s that Jordan sends me mixed signals. One moment she says loves them and the next she manipulates Nyneave, wants to be treated as always and then talks down to her and Elayne. Am I supposed to like her? I don’t know.
I'm not confident in my English grammar so sorry if what I said it's confusing. Not my mother language
The Seals... That whole ordeal makes me wanna scream. It just felt like they dumbed Egwene down to set up a powerful Moiraine scene.
Yeah, it sure sounds crazy when the Dragon Reborn comes around to just say "btw I'm breaking the seals lol ttyl bye", and her first response was absolutely rational...
But she is a dreamer. And she has a prophetic dream, a dream she _knows_ to be a prophecy, right after that happens, showing her that either the Seals are broken, or the whole world is gonna end.
That _should_ have been enough for her to understand that Rand wasn't just mumbling insanities, that he had actually discovered something and he had a point, he wasn't crazy, just wrong: he thought he needed to break the Seals and go to war, she saw in her vision that the Seals should be broken _during_ the war.
You would _expect_ her next action to be contacting him and saying "hey, I had a premonition, you were kind of correct, but also wrong; yeah the Seals need to be broken, but I should hang on to them until the right moment otherwise we are fucked, okay?" But no, her next reaction was to gather a massive army to try to force him to change his mind.
She goes into the meeting fully aware of 2 facts: first, they absolutely need to break the Seals if they want to win the Last Battle and, secondly... She won't let anyone think of breaking the Seals.
What sense does that make ._. She hadn't _forgotten_ about her dream, Moiraine some-fkn-how knew what she had dreamt and told her to tell them, it wasn't a deal of her remembering, just her being ashamed to admit Rand was right. The literal fate of creation in the balance, and she risks bringing death unending to everyone that ever has or will live, just to stick to her guns that Rand is wrong? Honestly what in the actual hell was that all about?
The purpose was clearly just creating more impact for Moiraine's return, it wouldn't have been as epic if she came to a meeting already in full agreement, but maybe, _just maybe,_ they shouldn't have kept the discussion going on for Moiraine to solve in a way that implies that Egwene would rather see Shai'tan rule the world than say "you were half correct, Rand."
Yes, I am an Egwene lover and can't help it. Yes she is annoying at times and arrogant at other times, but so is every other character. I just do not understand the vehement hatred of some of the fanbase. I can understand not liking her or even not loving her, but hate is such a strong word. Without Egwene in the end, the world would of been doomed. Rand and Egwene almost have similar parallel plotlines in the story and no one says the same things about Rand as they do Egwene.
@@Gunleaver plus egwene was treating rand like a child when even without the years of experience from lwes therin he was still far more qualified
There's a difference between work/business relationship and friend relationship. When they discuss the funny things their dog does, it's a friendship talk. When they discuss the One power, it is a work relationship. On top of that Egwene is the work boss to Nyn & Elaine. For work discussions Egwene's final decision is Law. Not opinion or a good recommendation, but Law.
Concerning Wise Ones - Egwene was a pseudo apprentice to the Wise Ones. They were her "boss" and she accepted the apprentice "job". She had toh to them under Aiel custom by her accepting apprenticeship. When Egwene leaves for Salidar, she leaves apprenticeship, so she pays up her toh bill. Out of respect for the Aiel, she could choose to have toh to an aiel, but not to wetlanders. Nyn and Elayne are wetlanders and Egwene doesn't owe them toh.
This is my opinion which isn't quite the same thing as a fact. Egwene's opinions may not be fact either, but they are law (which seems like the same thing to her).
Agree with every point you make. I think of her as having a "chameleon" personality. I think there is a gender bias when it comes to skills within the fandom (compare to Mat's leveling up and how he is revered).
I 100% agree with her failure to trust or apologize to Nynaeve and Elayne. But I would go so far as to say this is a pattern of behavior. Going all the way back to her not believing Rand in Caemlyn when he told his story about meeting the daughter-heir. In TGH when Elayne confirms the story, Egwene thinks to herself, I guess he was telling the truth. But she never mentions it again. (I know this is a small thing, but not being believed is a bit of a trigger for me, so I can't help but think less of her for this.)
Then there is her treatment of Mat. Where Elayne and Nynaeve make the effort to apologize to him, Egwene just lets her toh go unmet. She should know better, and it should weigh on het conscience.
Unlike some, I think Egwene is a well-written character. She is as powerful as any of our EFers. She is courageous and strong and smart. She just isn't likeable to me.
Thank you for another great video!
Thank you! And yeah, I hadn't thought of it as a pattern, but you're right! That thing with Rand always did kind of irk me, but I just never thought of it as a pattern of behavior, but I think you may be right!
I absolutely agree. She is lauded for living by ji e toh but she only does that for wise ones. That is not ji e toh for me. That's boot licking.
I think a lot of the problems with the ridiculousness of her leveling up is that unlike all of the other characters in the series it's never actually explained or even really aknowledged in world.
I could easily see it work even with very minor changes, but imo. Jordan really dropped the ball there.
Your first part covered so many of my thoughts so well!
My interpretation of the Incident in TAR was always that Egwene didn't intend for the men to do what they did. I think her intent was to conjure the men to just grab Nyn and scare her, but then it gets out of control. Egwene's thoughts afterward are about how she almost couldn't get rid of it, so I just assume that most of it wasn't her intent.
I understand the complaints after that for her relationships with Nyn and Elayne, but to be honest, I'm not sure that it bothers me. I think her relationship with them cannot be the same after she's raised to Amyrlin. As you talk about with Rand, she has a position which requires her to act a certain way. You can see some traces of it in how she purposefully distances herself from the other girls from Emond's Field when they're in Salidar. She's the Amyrlin, and the Amyrlin can't be seen to have favorites. She tries to make a distinction with them between private and public, but they just haven't found that balance yet, and it's not just Egwene's fault. We see times Nyn oversteps bounds with her because of that relationship.
~J
Similarly to you I read these books in isolation and had no idea of the Egwene hatred until much later. Tbh it shocked me, Egwene was always my favourite character and I couldn't help but feel that the hatred cast her way would not be as strong if she was a man because she displays many characteristics that are praised in fictional male characters. I do agree with your criticism of her as a friend though, and really just her relationships in general. Her interactions with Nynaeve in the latter half of the series always bothered me, her lack of communication with Rand towards the end was frustrating (though I agree it makes sense that she didn't want to break the seals), her dismissal of Matt every time he tries to 'help', and don't even get me started on her 'romance' with Gawyn... the list goes on really. But I think it is okay to have a character who is flawed in this way, and as you point out she is young and still is by the end of the series. Maybe if she was given the chance to mature more she would have realised that her long standing relationships are just as important as her ones with the 'cool' kids, and her position as Amrylin.
Oh boy. Where to begin. Egwene’s strength is her leadership. Unfortunately, in choosing to dive head first into this role, she has to make the sacrifice of her personal relationships (for the same reasons as Rand, by the way). Rand doesn’t get nearly as much flack for his arrogance, or his abuse of his friendships. Do we expect more from Egwene, because female friendships > power is so ingrained in our society? Yes. Rand is not expected to maintain both friends, family, and save the world. Egwene is. It’s an unfair, and overly burdensome expectation to put on her. Egwene gives up so, so much in her very young life, and is penalized by this fan base because of it. I wish this video focused more on what makes Egwene so great, rather than dwelling on her as a shitty friend. We don’t get to see (often) how much it pains her to have given up everything to get where she is. Maybe if we’d been exposed to more of that - more of her suffering - this fan base would be more forgiving.
I think the reason her behavior towards her friends bothers me where Rand's doesn't is just... honestly, I'm not a huge Rand fan. I like him well enough, I guess, but I just never resonated with his character at all, so the good things he does don't really impress me, but the bad things he does don't really disappoint me either, if that makes any sense.
Rand is going crazy during his ascension to leadership, so there is some justification for sacrificing personal relationships. Also, Rand never sought leadership or power, Egwene did. Not saying that makes anything else right or wrong, but it is a massive difference in their situations that people might be responding to.
Did Egwene seek power, though? Or did she seek knowledge? When presented with the idea that she might be the first dreamer in hundreds of years, she chose to lean into it, instead of running away. When handed the Stole of the Amyrlin (after not even being aware that it was up for the taking) she again chose to become the best damn Amyrlin the world had ever known. Egwene didn’t seek leadership or power. It came to her, and when it did she rose to the occasion. She accepted the mantle of responsibility. And Rand making himself hard / shutting himself off to the people who loved and cared for him cannot be blamed solely on the madness. That’s doing a disservice to his character, and Jordan’s writing. You can’t respect Rand, and despise Egwene. And if you do, consider very carefully why you have these feelings.
@@Gunleaver that was a lot of words just to say "women should know their place."
“he tries at every chance to give his friends their head” - Because their autonomy is something he **allows** them to have, not something they just have. Using a phrase most often applied to horses really shows how far above everyone else you believe Rand is. Rand is just a guy. A horrible guy, I might add. Mass murderer, bad boyfriend, bad friend, all-around-jerk, he has a lot to answer for. But it's okay, because he's The Protagonist™.
“he has a mandate from the Pattern to use them for his agenda” - Because Rand is the Chosen One, he can just do whatever the fork he wants. No one else has any freedom to make their own decisions. -Again, Rand is just a guy. Calm down.
Egwene is turned off by Rand’s unilateral use of power among the Aiel, and she’s the bad guy? She wants him to show humility, to lead by something other than brute force? How dare she. She sees this really disturbing change in the person she thought she once knew, and balks at it, and she's the asshole? Jennifer-Lawrence-okay-thumbs-up.gif
I guess you just skimmed all of the Egwene chapters, because she transformed herself from puppet Amyrlin in Salidar to true Amyrlin in the Tower. It took a **lot** of work. Many hours of conversations with Aes Sedai in camp tents and Tower rooms before they realized that she was the leader they needed. And she WAS. But Rand just waltzes in after she's barely reunified the Tower and says “hey, I’m the protagonist, obey me” and she dares to defy his stupidity.
Really, your rant says way more about you than it does Egwene. These people don't know they're characters in a story, and Egwene didn't read the Rand chapters. She didn't get the memo that she's just supposed to go along with everything he says because he's the Dragon Bloody Reborn.
@@Gunleaver glad I read the last line first. Saved me a lot of time. Go fork yourself, kid.
You make some very good points here. I'll think on these more during this re-read.
Very fair discussion of a complex and divisive character. On the one moment that forms the basis of your change in opinion: first I agree that this is clearly the most valid criticism of Egwene and it isn’t tinged with double standards like several others are. I think my mind just glossed over that moment on first read. On reread it stands out. And honestly I have to blame RJ some for I think not realizing how egregious that was. It does seem out of character. And I will say that I think maybe Egwene just isn’t a great friend, but there’s a vast difference between being more focused on personal goals than friendship and doing something horrendous to a friend with slight provocation. So maybe your approach is the best one, forget it happened.
I think I do have to make a video about the... I think it's 5 things? I gotta write out some notes, but like, there are about 5 things I just skip when reading cause they are so frustrating/annoying/upsetting/out of character, etc...
Egwene is my favorite character hands down no bones about it. the way she treated her friends really has little bearing on how much I like her... yes she was arrogant and not a great friend but her rise from a cute little farm girl to the woman who almost singlehandedly repels the seanchan from the white tower is amazing. I will never back down from my love for egwene.. if my wife wasnt against me having another womans name on me id have an Egwene tattoo
Heh, we are all allowed to love who we love! Like, I said, I honestly thought I was weird for not loving her that much!
@@Gunleaver Egwene for Empress 2020
The Gawyn thing was abrupt. Nynaeve DID need to be taken down a peg. I don't think it was cool to do what she did to Nynaeve to prove that point, but Nynaeve was also not grasping the danger of Tel'aran'rhiod, which seems hypocritical, but the lesson needed to be learned. This was evident when Nynaeve faces Moghedien several times and bests her. Elayne was going through some things as well, like that creepy thing she was doing to Thom in Fires of Heaven. Honestly, all three of them were treating each other like shit... so I kind of figure it's all fair in the end. These are all complex characters and I wouldn't have them be otherwise.
If I can piggyback on this one; I think in Egwene’s mind (and honestly, I suspect RJ’s) what Egwene did to Nyneave with the attack was no worse than what Amys did when Amys caught Egwene the first time. And I think that’s important as Egwene tends to mimic those in authority over her to assert authority over others. I think the foul taste lesson was far more necessary and important for Nyneave’s character development, and if it had been just that, I could appreciate her giddiness more because it’s like she suddenly had the upper hand on her big sister. She’s excited that she now has the authority.
@@Gunleaver Sometimes that's the price that's required. Someone has to pay the piper. I get that you admire Nynaeve, but there are all kinds of methods to gain your ends. If you fail to think like your opponent, then ultimately you must accept the consequences of being unprepared. Egwene could well have learned from the aiel that kind lessons can kill.
@@Gunleaver You leave the question hanging there: Who determines the right to teach lessons or to assert authority? If it's somehow alright for anyone to assume command in a situation then why it's it wrong for another in similar circumstances? You rightfully cited Rand as taking command in situations that have had mixed reactions and results, should he be reviled if he makes a miscalculation or comes off as overreaching? Sure, but let's save our indignation over the fact that other characters also are subject to human failings and foibles, hypocrisy and so forth...I understand Egwene has fucked up a few times, but to me that only enhances the fact that she comes off as a real person, with faults AND value. No great person or character is ALWAYS great. To be real, they often are imperfect fuck ups who deserve redemption as much as admiration. Leaders often times MUST assert themselves over others, even if those they intend to lead do not initially submit to being led. Egwene has the Talent of a Dreamer. Right or wrong, Nynaeve is only able to participate in Tel'aran'rhiod with the use of a ter'angreal. Egwene holds the authority in Tel'aran'rhiod over Nynaeve as much as Amys does over Egwene while Egwene is learning. That may rankle some people, but it's fact. Nynaeve SHOULD cede authority to Dreamwalkers as she lacks the natural Talent.
@@Gunleaver It feels like you're going into a logic loop where you don't hear what you want (someone saying they're wrong and you're right), then you change the subject to something else when you're edges start to show.
My comment was addressing your contention that Egwene has no authority to tell Nynaeve what to do in Tel'aran'rhiod and I feel my reasoning was quite clear. Egwene has the authority of Talent and training where Nynaeve has neither at that point. Regardless of Egwene's moral currency in other regards, the fact is her assets give her authority much the same way a NASCAR driver should have the authority of expertise over a child on a big wheel (when it comes to driving).
Take your feelings for either of them out of it and it makes sense. In terms of the narrative, RJ himself wrote it this way, and he cashed the sequence in when Egwene went on the path to becoming Amyrlin Seat. There's a reason for the sequence. Egwene is destined to save the Aes Sedai order. Nynaeve has a different path and focus. In order to achieve her ends, Egwene must break the relationship she has with Nynaeve and form a new one. Nynaeve would never accept the seat even if it was offered. Egwene being astute knows that Nynaeve will carry some influence because of her strengths. She cannot afford to continue a deferential dynamic with anyone let alone someone who had taken care of her as a child.
Thus you may think it's ridiculous that Egwene asserts herself for, what is in your mind, petty reasoning. All the while you've become perfectly content to accept that Nynaeve should be respected because she's older and someone you "like" more as a character.
I mean, sure...I disagree.
Nerdy, all of the faults you saw in Egwene are the reasons she was my least favorite of the EF5. I saw it from the beginning.
That being said, she grew on me. Yes she's arrogant and flawed but she puts the needs of the world in front of her own. Sure she is wrong on some of the decisions she makes but she does it from a sense of duty. I admired her and by aGS she was a rock star in my mind. Like all rock stars she was bigger than life and imperfect.
I hated her character in the beginning so much that I didn't even care when she got captured by the Seanchan. I know that is sad, but I just didn't like her and didn't care what happened to her.
It was her time with the Wiseones that I saw that she started to grow up and gain some semblance of morals.
However, you brought out some good points about how she treated Nynaeve and Elayne. I saw those as her overcompensating and trying to not treat her friends as special. Like most people try not to treat someone special you inevitably do exactly that, but in a bad way. This is natural, a natural human flaw. Many people accuse her of being a Mary Sue. I never got that because of all of the flaws she had and those flaws made her character development more believable to me.
i would say egwene often tries to control rand in the same way rand tries to control her
I FUCKING LOVE YOU!!!
great video dude! Love me some egwene
Honestly the whole dream sequence with Gawyn is...disturbing. She admits to herself when she runs into him later, that she had memories of doing things with him he had no memory of. She didn't just dream of making out with him (or more) she essentially did, but he never knows. Yes, he wanted it as he pulled her into his dream, but it always seemed like making out with someone who was drunk and came on to you. For some people it's perfectly fine because obviously they want to, they came on to you. Yet come morning, they have no memory of it and you never tell them anything. Yet it's written to be some affirmation of his feelings for her and her romantic awakening toward him. She doesn't admit what happens to anyone, especially Gawyn, and it's become a scene I would rather forget even happened.
Honestly the scene with Nyneave and Egwene would have at least made sense for her character if instead of doing it to hide her secret, she was doing it to impress upon Nymeave the importance of being careful in the world of dreams. This is something the wise ones did to Egwene as well except she thought she was going to die instead.
I agree with your analysis of Egwene’s flaws in her interactions with Nynaeve and somewhat with Elayne, but I feel like you are completely missing the mark with her treatment of Rand. You point out the fact that they don’t actually have many face to face interactions once she becomes Amyrlin, but her condescending attitude toward him shows in many scenes beyond their one on one interactions... in her inner thoughts about him as well as her discussions about Rand with others. You also point out that she questions and pushes back because of her position and how important her title is, but you neglect to acknowledge that Rand is not just some guy from her home town.... he is the freaking Dragon Reborn! He is the reincarnation of one of the most powerful beings to ever exist. So important and powerful that the Wheel spins him back in not existence to save the world. Prophecies have been written about him, and he doesn’t ask for any of it. She has an important position, but there were not prophesies foretelling of her rise to power thousands of years old. It would be one thing if she didn’t believe he was the Dragon Reborn, but she KNOWS he is yet she still feels the need to be petty when it comes to him. Contrary to how it sounds, I actually really respect the character of Egwene... in everything except her interactions with the other Emond’s Field 5. I cheer for her with the rebels, the WT, and the Seanchan. But she really is hard to swallow when she acts so condescendingly toward the other main heroes. It’s like she is jealous or angry that they are all talented/gifted too and she is not the “special” one to come from her little farm town. I will also acknowledge that she is very young and doesn’t get the chance to eventually accept this, but it is really irksome to see her stop being a friend to so many people because she feels she needs to be more important than any of them.
I don't think she does that. I didn't think she is condescending to them.
There’s a double standard in fantasy where women who display the same characteristics as male counterparts are hated while the men are lauded for those very same traits. Egwene, and Sansa from GoT, are the biggest examples of this imo.
Rand bossing her around: crickets
Egwene bossing Rand: OMG SHES A PSYCHOPATHIC CONTROL FREAK REEEE
“Real life doesn’t always make narrative sense” word
@@r1ddhima Heh, this line is straight outta one of my favorite shows -- Crazy Ex Girlfriend.
Egwene is definitely arrogant but I think that’s what makes her such a great amyrlin and aes sedai (and also why she needed to sacrifice herself in the end- her arrogance would have hindered the white tower moving forward and she served her purpose) I still love Egwene despite all her flaws, maybe even because of her flaws. Great video!!
@@r1ddhima Yeah, I don't see her arrogance in her position as the Amyrlin to be a fault. It's pretty much part of the job description, as far as I'm concerned! lol
Hmmm. I *think* the reason she treats the Wise Ones differently than her friends is that by this point in the story she views the others as her equals - iirc there is even a bit earlier on when Nynaeve has to deal with the fact that Egwene isn't treating her as a superior anymore, but as an equal. The Wise Ones however she treats as superiors.
She doesn't tell her friends the secret because she feels guilty and wants nobody to know. She confesses to the Wise Ones because she's ashamed and knows that the honour system matters to them, and she's disappointed her superiors. That last bit is important and why she doesn't tell everyone else even when absolved of it. (Though absorbing the Aiel 'once paid it never happened' mentality sure was useful here :D ) She respects them as *authorities* in a way she doesn't Nynaeve or Elayne (which is not to say she doesn't respect them in other ways). Then after that she *becomes* and authority, and now views herself as on a level with the Wise Ones (whom she seems to respect a lot more than Aes Sedai). And this puts Nynaeve and Elayne as subordinate
I don't know how *conscious* any of this is for her - *some* of it is. but other bits I feel aren't. You're kinda right it does colour her likeability as a person a little bit.
So the kerfuffle over breaking the seals specifically is pretty stupid IMO, and I'm chalking this one up to Sanderson. She has two visions pertaining to the seals. The first shows Rand walking over the the seals, breaking them as he walks. In the second she's clawing desperately at a wall made up of seals that she tries to tear down but cannot. With hindsight I think it's fair to say that Rand was supposed to break the seals, or at least he could have. The second one is open to more interpretation, but it strongly suggests that Egwene will try to break the seals but will be unable to.
Looking at how things played out we can see that the first vision wasn't fulfilled because Egwene, having Dreamed Rand breaking the seals all the way back in LoC, decided that she didn't care for that vision, and so opposed him. It wasn't until Moiraine returned and suggested that it was her job as watcher of the seals to break them herself. Moraine is wrong, but only because Egwene lies to her. Moraine asks her if she saw who broke the seals "what did you see mother" she says. And Egwene answers that she saw Rand walking over the shards but not actually breaking them. This is wrong. Here's the relevant text.
[Rand] walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step.
... shattering with his every step. Rand is breaking the seals. He was supposed to break them. But Egwene, for reasons that only really serve the plot later on, opposes this. She then either misremembers or outright lies to Moiraine about her vision, which then leads to the next bit.
Rand hands over the seals to Egwene who then loses them. This makes no sense. If she's taking her job as watcher of the seals so seriously why would she let them out of her sight? Even for a moment! This is the most important job she had and she fucked it. If not for an incredibly contrived series of events involving Androl and a double whammy mask off mirrors, the shadow would have won.
Revisiting that second vision tells us everything we need to know about Egwene and the seals. She will not be able to tear down that wall, she won't be able to break the seals herself. And she doesn't. Once again she passes off her most important responsibility to someone else (which at this point for me was infuriating). The point is that breaking the seals is not her job, it never was. And she's a pretty lousy watcher over them anyway, world's worst babysitter amiright?
But! This doesn't make me hate Egwene, because it's not her fault. It's just bad writing. The reason I blamed Sanderson earlier is because I don't believe Jordan would've changed the meaning/importance of Egwene's visions, or had her misremembers/lie about them. To me this seems like one of the many changes Sanderson made in order to expand the material he added by necessity. We know that Jordan had only written a "fragment" of that scene thanks to Sanderson's blog post on the subject.
So yeah I think Egwene gets a bad rap in the last chunk of the series largely because Sanderson decided to start fudging details. This is wholly my interpretation and everyone is obviously welcome to disagree, but to me the final 3 books show Egwene as a powerful channeler and effective leader, but also someone totally unqualified to be the watcher of the seals. Her decision-making flies in the face of her own Dreams, and when given a responsibility that should never have been hers in the first place she totally biffs. Through complete dumb luck, that can't be tied in any way to taveren shenanigans, the light comes into possession of the seals and is actually able to break them in time. So yeah. I get the hate, at least late game.
In terms of my overall feelings towards Egwene... I think I'm in a similar boat. I respect her, I want to like her, I cheer for all her moments of badassery. A lot of the criticisms directed at her (the ones you discount), I feel are at least overblown if not outright wrong (insofar as there's right and wrong when interpreting a work of art). And... I think most of the time, even after the turning point you note, which is a very valid one, I do like her. But holy crap does she pull some shit and it bothers me that, while she does suffer a lot over the course of the series, there are a number of pretty glaring missteps that she's never really forced to own up to (once again, her treatment of Nynaeve, and to a lesser extent Elayne, is probably the biggest).
To address your final note, however... it only just came to me, watching your video, but I think maybe I can offer an explanation, though it's not a terribly flattering one. Egwene post-damane is, as you note and as many others have noted, obsessed with maintaining control. This is of course an utterly understandable reaction to the chilling ordeal she went through. But it does lead her down a dark path at times. In particular, I think now that it colours the entire way she approaches relationships over the remainder of the series. She demonstrates, time and again, a need to be the dominant player in her relationships with other people; she is extremely reluctant to play a submissive role, and isn't even really content to be an equal (though I stress I think this is all subconscious).
Her relationship with the Wise Ones supports rather than contradicts this. Whilst eventually she comes to treat them with the respect they deserve and demand, she doesn't do this at the start, disobeying their command not to enter Tel'aran'rhiod without them without giving it much of a second thought. This is something that does, essentially, have to be beaten out of her. And even then, it's only at the end that she really treats them with full respect - she continues to play truant in the Tel'aran'rhiod, but eventually she does realize she needs to fess up to it and pay the price. That's why she never treats Nynaeve and Elayne with the same kind of respect, I think - they're never able to win (or force) it out of her in the way the Wise Ones were able to.
And I do think you can see this in virtually all of Egwene's other relationships; the only possible major exception I can think of off the top of my head is Aviendha, though I'd want to go back and reread their interactions of Books 4 and 5 to see how that fits into this picture. Now, in Egwene's defence, it doesn't help that at a relatively early point in the series she becomes, as you say, the most powerful woman in the world, and the vast majority of the people she interacts after that are officially subordinate to her - nor does it help that one of her major arcs is reminding a good chunk of the same people of that fact, something she's fully justified in. But when it comes to her closest friends, it leads to her doing some pretty shitty things.
There you go. There's my 'unified theory of Egwene', at least in outline. If I didn't drown you in that wall of text, tell me what you think!
Heh, resurfacing from all that text... lol! Just kidding, this was actually really interesting, and a take on this that I hadn't thought of, to be honest. And it's making me think of it in a new light. If I ever update my character deep dive videos, I may just have some more to add to the Egwene discussion.... you've got me thinking! (You should join discord so we can hash this out!)
@@LezbiNerdy Happy to! Will be good to have more people to chat WoT with...
I absolutely agree with all your points. On her quick rise to leadership I want to share my personal experiance. I enlisted in the Army at 17 and by the age of 20, after many ours of training going back to JROTC in high school to PLDC at 20, I was responsible for the wellbeing, behavior and lives of five other people. I was one who wasn't even good at it either. So between being woven by the pattern, recieving the best training in the world and being put in a sink or swim situation I have no issue with this aspect of the story.
I recently completed my first read through of Wheel of Time, and Egwene is probably the only one that I genuinely hated. Nynaeve, Rand and Mat were my favourite characters in all the books, probably in all of fantasy. I really liked Elayne and Perrin despite not always loving and sometimes hating the plot they are involved in. Even Faile who became annoying, I didn't mind her, I actually started to like her again by the end of the series like I did back during The Shadow Rising, it was how Perrin acted because of her that was more annoying than Faile herself. But Egwene I genuine hated her, I think it's because Egwene has moments when she acts like one of the Forsaken or Elaida with the scene in the Dream World with Nynaeve or her authoritarian attitudes in her attempts to have influence over all female channelers and her using methods like getting some of the sisters to swear fealty to her like Elaida wanted to do, the story doesn't criticise her for it, like the story does Rand or Perrin when they go to darker places. And she rarely fails like other characters and when she occasionally does it doesn't feel like a failure, she lies to the Wise Ones? She gets a opportunity to regain all their respect five pages later and she benefited more by not listening to them. She pretends to be Aes Sedai which would get her in shit lot of trouble? Nah, she's in charge now. The story sets up that she will die if Elaida gets her hands on her? Well scratch that, Elaida doesn't kill her and gives Egwene a perfect opportunity to undermine her. Egwene stresses that if she gets rescued from the Tower all her work will be undone? Well Siuan, Gawyn and Bryne rescue her against her wishes and there's no consequences to that, but she decides to punish Siuan for it anyway. She fails upwards to often in the series.
I think the reason that the liquid is the part that Nynaeve flashes back to is that Nyn is one of the toughest people in the series when it comes to physical danger and suffering. If you look at her character she is if not unafraid of death then at least she is willing to throw herself into it. Pain? She can push through that, even using pain as strength if you look at the confrontation in the test with aginor where she drove thorns through her palms. The moments she really collapses are the ones where she has a reversal of authority and or failing someone else.
The reason why she doesn't hold onto the assault (which stops before it becomes clear whether they are going to eat or make grape juice out of her) is that the loss of her authority and the insecurity that that triggers in her is what she holds onto. The one blow that utterly destroys her is when she almost gets Birgitte killed. She is perfectly fine going back into TAR to confront moghedien even though the last time was a disaster even if she is narratively shitting herself as she does it because death and torture for herself is something she can work past. Its failing others that really gets her and also failing to live up to her own standards. Hence all the tortures that really stick with her are the ones that endanger others or force her to abandon others.
Also people deal with being attacked in strange ways. I have dealt with alot of grape flavored survivors and you would be stunned how often the emotional impact is almost zero. And I don't mean they are not dealing with it, suppressing it, or other things. Some people just don't care. They are built of sturdy stuff or they just don't have weaknesses along that line. I know men who can have guns pointed at them and not have their heart rate spike above 60 and the same guy will have a nervous break down if you ask them to call a girl who slipped them a number or go for a job interview.
If you have a reddit, you might check out my response to this video on the WoT forums. Don't really want to reformat and write it for RUclips. As it is, I kind of just went into my ranting mode, so it might need formatted and cleaned up, and maybe it would be a bit more clear if I slept on it, re-read everything and then wrote it, but alas... You still might find the answer you apparently didn't really find when looking up other explanations for the Egwene-Nyneave interaction.
Link: www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/iv6gbc/lets_talk_about_egwene/g5wn0ex/?context=3
The Doom From Latveria thank you!!! So thorough! I made a similar comment after going back to review the scene as well. It’s funny how fans can rewrite certain characters based on their own biases. Jordan was a master at outlining character motivation and showing how easily that can be misinterpreted when viewed through the lens of another character POV.
@@AmandaGrangerpanda Yeah, I am a bit surprised to find that some people found it hard to find justification for Egwene's handling of Nyneave, as if there was no possible counter-arguments. Even if you don't agree with the argument, these people couldn't even see the text to see it could be made properly? After all this nonsense, I felt I needed to point it out at least.
I'm just a WOT fanboy. I like almost everything about WOT. Other than some under cooked relationships feeling to sudden or some occasional vagueness of some plots, I'm good with it. Heck, I don't even mind the "slog".
She's a well written character. But she's also a terrible person. She didn't deserve most of the things she accomplished, but the pattern needed her. And when the pattern was done with her, she was discarded immediately. She threw away her old friends; aviendha, who considered her as near sister, Elayne and many others. Hilariously, she ended up with Gawyn. Very fitting ending for both of them.
I’m just gonna come out and say it: I’m biased when it comes to Egwene. I started the wot with the YA version of the novels, and from the two rivers replaces the normal prologue with a POV from Egwene that immediately cemented her character to me. I found out early on how others viewed her, but for whatever it says about me, I identified with her 100%. And more because what she does makes her a kind of grey character. I could understand why she lied to Nynaeve (though I admit I don’t have a super clear recollection of that particular scene; I’m at the beginning of a reread (tGH) right now, so I’ll revisit this topic...). My take at the time (I was much younger and used to lying to people I simultaneously feared and respected) was that she kind of resents Nyn at time. Mainly because she idolized her for so long when she was young. Then she’s introduced to this new culture and way of thinking and Nyn becomes a cardboard cut out of her humble origins. She divorces herself and who she is from the two rivers. It seems arrogant, but I relate to that so much. I come from a small town where people are backwards and haven’t been exposed to things I have been. I don’t resent or hate them, but it’s difficult to talk to these people after you have changed so much. And they stay the same. So not in that particular case I don’t remember, but in general, I sensed that tension because Egwene was Nyn’s apprentice, she planned to be her. But then her world view shifted. Nyn grew a lot as a person, but one of the hallmarks of her character is that she clings to her origins (even only grudgingly begins to enjoy dressing more extravagantly and moving away from her “stout sturdy two rivers” clothing). So it’s a generational clash of sorts.
And I panicked with her when I thought Nyn was going to catch her in a lie. I loved it because it’s clear how guilty she felt, but she didn’t feel like she could tell her the truth because she knows as her former wisdom, she would disapprove. The ji’e’toh framework helps her confront this with the wise ones. It would’ve been harder with Nyn at that point. And she went too far to distract her in an immature attempt to avoid consequences. No doubt also a play for laughs on Jordan’s part, but I see what you mean. Messed up.
I guess I just submerged myself so deeply in this characters that even their flaws are great. Because of how real they are and how clearly submerged Jordan was in their povs while writing them.
Just my hot take. As I said, I’ve been defending eggy for ages, and I’m fine with people not liking her or pointing out inconsistencies. But for me they work. And I find too many parallels between her and me, be that good or bad 🤣😅
So I recently cheated and looked up this passage in the tor rereads and WOW. There is so much going on I forgot about. I used to love these rereads and I big recommend them to anyone: www.tor.com/2009/06/10/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-fires-of-heaven-part-7/
One of the things that stands out to me is that I remembered correctly. It wasn’t as out of character as it seemed. There was the shift in power dynamic between Egwene and Nyn, but beyond that this exchange with Moiraine in this chapter really got me thinking. Egwene is shocked that Moiraine isn’t concerned about Siuan because of their friendship. Moiraine basically says what everyone complains that is Egwene’s major character flaw: “There is a saying in Cairhien, though I have heard it as far away as Tarabon and Saldaea. ‘Take what you want, and pay for it.’ Siuan and I took the path we wanted, and we knew we would have to pay for it eventually.”
God this is why we keep going back and rereading. This kind of depth of character and theme is insane. It’s intricate and I do feel it redeems Egwene and the rest of the characters flaws. They are just incredibly three dimensional. Nynaeve wasn’t even mad at Egwene for the stunt with the men because she wanted to desperately prove that she could handle anything that was thrown at her - even though she could not, and Egwene makes her admit that. But though Egwene is being hypocritical, so are MOST of the other characters at this stage and she does admit it to herself, but it serves a purpose. This is the same chapter where they find out Elaida deposed Siuan.
So tl;dr: all in all I give this character development 100/10. And thank you for making me analyze this! It’s giving me life ❤️ these characters will forever feel so real for me, and this is why.
Egwene is so great when you ignore the rape and accusation that rand used compulsion on aeis sedai
I don´t get the hate Egwene gets, she has the hardest route of all from emmons field mostly without the plot armor plus the most crappy love life. She absorbs all cultures she respect and try to take their best traits to better herself and her mission, but even after all her travels and changing she still holds her core personality (like the way she still wants Gawyn to sleep in an other room untill they are married etc.). In the beginning she is just that annoying girl but with every step she takes she grows. Sure there are some things i didn´t like, but who is without a flaw?
There's not a damn thing wrong with Egwene! She was a little girl who grew up watching travelers come through her house telling her stories. She and Naynaeve were connected because they were both born with the spark. She also is a dreamer so who knows how many versions of her own death she foresaw. She's an awesome character.
I wonder if Robert wrote her specifically like this because he was going to was planning her death. If she was greatly admired and loved like Nynaeve, the readership might have erupted.
it's pretty clear that egwene's arc is a mirror of rand's. both are village youths who become the most powerful people in the world. both have been collared. both have been boxed and beaten. both have antagonized, mistreated, and used those on there side, even their closest friends.
the difference in how the we as readers react and how the fictional world reacts comes down to egwene being a woman and rand being a man. she never has to come to terms with the things you mention because she's becoming/being a leader, and rand is at best feared just because of who he is. whereas on this side of the page we naturally sympathize with rand and deride egwene because she "didn't have to work for it."
i'm not saying one is better or worse, just that these things they do (good or bad) just make them parallels of each other.
While I've problems with some of her decisions/actions, I've never really had problem with _her_ . I rather like her[mostly] and, regardless of the story, my head cannon has always had her ta'veren.
Egwene's one of my favorite characters, always has been. I can't speak to whatever she did or did not do in the last few books very much, because I was mostly checked out of the series as a whole by then, and have retained almost nothing of it. But people were talking about her the same way earlier in the books series, and they're already doing it for the show as well despite that she isn't even out of Falme yet.
And my point is this: you can criticize a lot about her, certainly. You can have endless debate about this or that plot point or character trait that makes her better or worse as a "person", better or worse as a character, more or less likeable. But my question is, should anyone even bother to engage in such debate, in the sense of taking it face value?
It's undeniable Egwene gets scrutinized far more harshly than almost any other character in the series. But why? IMO opinion it's because she's special. She actually is written to be better, stronger, more capable, more resolute, than almost anybody else around her. She rarely fails, she never breaks, she rarely doubts herself, she asks a lot of those around her. She's usually the most magically powerful person around her, or as near as. Unlike many extremely strong-willed people in the series, her decisions are almost always correct.
And people just respond poorly to that kind of character, when that character is female.
It's not that she's more controversial as a "person" than anybody else in the books; it's that people are predisposed to find her type of character disagreeable, and so they start arguments both good and bad about why she's a problem. And soon there's no space left for people who want to just enjoy her character in peace, or even for people who want to despise her in peace, I guess. The arguments are all that exists.
What is that noise at 3:00?
How I see the characters ages (I just finished AMOL yesterday Going through RUclips looking for WoT content, thanks for these character deep dives they are eye opening for me as a first time reader)
As of the start of the series
Rand, Mat, Perrin, Aviendha age 19
Egwene, Elayne 17
Nynaeve 24
Morraine 42
Lan 44
Min 21
By the end of the series everyone has aged 2 and a half year's
There are some interesting insights in this I hadn't considered. I'll have to reread (again).
But in a way, Egwene's human failings make me feel better. I *am* Nineveh. But I've always *wanted* to be more like Egwene. Maybe she isn't quite up on the pedestal I put her on in my heart.
Egwene is soo arrogant and snarky and never gets her comeuppance like Nyneve. It feels like Robert forgot her most abundant character flaw. When she becomes Amyrlin it feels unearned because her character does not change! In such a long series real character is a must for main characters, powerups should feel earned by virtue of character shifting with it.
I am soooooooo inn love with your channel !!! I think you are the only WOTuber I can watch non stop !!! 😍
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
I always find it interesting that people have so much empathy for Nynaeve, even though she walks around beating people with a stick (literally), but think Egwene is a jerk because she freaks out when her secret almost gets exposed. Put yourself in her shoes in this situation, she’s literally alone in a foreign culture at the mercy of very violent people (remember Amys invading her Dream and making her feel like she was going to die/be eaten) and she has the added pressure that she has no other way to learn how to use a Talent that could be a key to saving the universe. She’s lied to these people already and feels trapped by that lie, but has enough honor to take the consequences when she is in a position to do so. She also knows Nynaeve is impulsive and controlling and is quiet capable of deciding to tell the Wise Ones the truth because she thinks that’s for the best. Egwene isn’t perfect, but she’s not just being a jerk, she’s a young woman that has been through a traumatic experience who has put an unrealistic expectation on herself to essentially save the world by learning this ability that only these women can teach her and she’s dealing with a friend who ALWAYS thinks she is right and knows what’s best for everyone else.
This is a very fair assessment of Egwene's character that doesn't fall prey to the sexism many people don't realize influences their opinion of her.
I do have some disagreements though. And in fairness, probably colored by Egwene being my absolute favorite character.
Regarding THAT scene in T'A'R where she torments Nynaeve, I feel like it isn't quite as heinous as some people think. I mean, they live in a world that uses a lot of violence, corporal punishment, etc in ways that our modern society considers taboo now. And in particular, the Aes Sedai training system is set up around making young girls face their worst fears. You mention yourself that Nynaeve faces this particular fear in her Accepted test. So where is the condemnation for the Aes Sedai for putting Nynaeve and countless other girls through that sort of trauma? Is it somehow justified because there's a ter'angreal involved rather than a conscious choice about what the initiates face inside the arches? Well there's some hints that actually the sisters channeling to activate the accepted's test have some measure of control over what the girls face in there. And further, the Aes Sedai surely know what kinds of potential traumas the girls face in there, yet continue to put the girls through it. Is it excusable because they need to learn to face their worst fears to be good Aes Sedai? Well Egwene was teaching Nynaeve a VERY important lesson about the dangers of T'A'R that Nynaeve was being too bullheaded to acknowledge. Plus, Egwene stops the nightmare before Nynaeve is harmed.
I also think taking Nynaeve's reaction into account is important here, because we should remember that issues of assault on women revolve around the affect it has on the woman, rather than the intentions behind the behavior. And as you note, when Nynaeve remembers this moment, she remembers a trauma no worse than being forced to drink a foul potion. Clearly the threat of assault did not have a long-lasting traumatic effect on Nynaeve. Egwene knows Nynaeve. She knows the woman to be strong and brave to a foolhardy degree, and also resilient. I don't think Egwene would have chosen this nightmare if she thought Nynaeve couldn't handle it. But she also had to pick something sufficiently frightening that it would break even Nynaeve's bravest face.
It's a morally grey moment for sure, but not "unforgivable" imo.
Also as regards your point about Egwene apologizing for lying to the Wise Ones and accepting her punishment but not offering the same to Nynaeve, we should take the power imbalances into account here. Egwene offers this showing of respect to the Wise Ones from the position of being their pupil. She is showing respect in a way that puts them above her station. Nynaeve, while once her teacher, has now transitioned to the status of peer. But Nynaeve sometimes has trouble remembering to treat Egwene as an equal rather than a pupil. And, to some degree, at this point Nynaeve is actually Egwene's pupil, since Egwene is teaching her to dreamwalk.
Furthermore her need to show Nynaeve humility decreases shortly thereafter, as now Egwene is raised to Amyrlin and thus needs Nynaeve to not be even her peer anymore, but rather her subject. Same for Elayne, and everyone else, as you note. Regardless of their friendship, Egwene needs to not reduce herself to the level of peer with Nynaeve at this point because of her station, and ESPECIALLY because of how precarious her power as Amyrlin is early on. If even her friends aren't treating her as Amyrlin, then why should anybody else?
Finally regarding her whirlwind romance with Gawyn, I mean it's hinted at from their first meeting that they have the hots for each other. Plus consider their ages; teenagers are the type to have whirlwind romance. PLUS if you're going to criticize this romance, then Rand and Elayne also deserve criticism for similarly whirlwind romance. And Nynaeve and Lan tbh, though they get more "screentime" to develop it -- same with Rand and Min really.
I mean, Gawyn is so annoying at the end and his relationship with Egwene is her biggest blindspot in judgement, but hey everyone is flawed, and who knows how long they would have lasted as a couple if they'd survived the last battle.
Anyways all of these things are certainly flaws in Egwene's character, but she's basically equally as flawed as all the other characters, and I don't demand perfection from characters in order to like them. Everybody has flaws. Everybody makes mistakes. What matters most is that someone is trying their best to do the right thing, even if they screw up sometimes. And that's something you have to say is true of Egwene: she's always TRYING to do the right thing.
Also people might find this thing I wrote interesting, as it addresses some complaints in other comments on this video www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/9qii3a/a_theory_of_heroism_in_wheel_of_time_rand_and/
I came to the opinion that Gawyn was the pattern putting brakes on Egwene, in much the same way the three main characters find a partner who complements their skillsets he falls in 'love' with Gawyn while in Cairhien (about the same time as the Salidar Aes Sedai choose her as Amarlyn (she is unable to go for an extended time) I think the Amarlyn is Ta'Vern (not Egwene), he was what she needed to protect her from the Bloodknives and other physical threats and was a weight holding her back and eventually removing her once she had/was doing what was needed to win the last battle. meaning that both the White and Black towers went into the next age on an evenish footing, with a strong and new leader not an entrenched political genius....
That's an interesting take on Gawyn! Heh, and it's better than my interpretation of him as "something that got stuck on my shoe", lol!
@@LezbiNerdy confirmed Egwene is not ta'vern but think the office she holds is
Apparently, I have been successful in purging the dream attack on Nynaeve from the story. Egwene lost me during the Wise One's line, and, certainly, with the stupid Gawyn interactions. I remember telling Jordan that Egwene wouldn't do that. He didn't listen.
I think a dream told her not to tell nynaeve - disaster ahead or at least she implies it. Hence the panic. Not excusing just saying.
Oooh, this just tugged at my memory, now I want to go find reference to that, because yeah... I don't know if it's about this specifically, but you're right. There is something in a dream about not telling someone something.
Heh, super specific, I know, but yeah, I remember it, I just can't remember the exact details,
@@LezbiNerdy i am re-read of LOC will try to find reference but it might be in FoH, i love these books and your breakdowns, thank you
I think I disliked her _more_ after she became the Amyrlin in full, regarding her dealing with Rand.
It's excusable for her to keep trying to humble him while he becomes the leader of Tear, then the Car'a'carn, then the de facto king of Cairhiem. Through all that she keeps telling him he is nothing and demanding him to behave as he used to, and that is _fine,_ that is exactly what you said, someone struggling to see someone they knew as a normal friend take on immense responsibilities...
What annoys me about her is that, once she _herself_ is in a position of being hugely elevated, she never once _thinks_ (I'm not even saying she should have talked with him about this, she hardly had the chance, but she doesn't even _think_ ) "wow Nynaeve and Elayne wanna keep ignoring my orders cause we are friends, this must have been what Rand felt like, I totally made him being accepted as a leader by those people much harder than he needed it to be, it sure sucks when the people you depend on the most just laugh in your face and say you're just a kid, wow, I was a dick to him back then."
No, she fully expects all her buddies to grow up, accept and revere her new position, getting indignant when Nynaeve and Elayne take too long to bow down to her.
This isn't just an Egwene issue for me, basically _all_ characters who go through similar experiences never once in the series stop to empathize with the others (Rand could have related to Egwene regarding being captured and tortured, Perrin could have related to Mat regarding falling in love with someone of such an alien culture to his etc.) but it annoys me more in her instance because it isn't just a struggle she saw happening, she was aggressively hurtful towards Rand when he was trying to become respected, it just makes me think of her as an unsympathetic person that the thought never even crosses her mind.
I think you nailed it.
Great video. I'm starting to become a bigger fan.
I started disliking the supergirls after the way they treated Mat in Tear after he risked his life to rescue the. Then she manipulated her childhood friend, Mat, into going to Ebou Dar - in addition to the things you mentioned. While the other girls redeemed themselves and regained my love, my dislike for Egwene grew
My girl. They better not mess her up
My thoughts on Egwene are mostly negative as well. I suppose its because I read this as an adult and I can't relate to a 16 year old girl to begin with maybe. But I think I was largely just not into her whole storyline. In contrast I thought Nyaneve and even Elayne had more compelling storylines than merely finding a prodigy magician in a farm village. I've seen this storyline a thousand times with men an women its hardly unique by the time I read the series.
Nice call out to Keith Jackson (whoa nelly). Great video of and thoughtful analysis. It does not bother me that she calls down Nynaeve. I hate Nynaeve. She does to Nynaeve what Nynaeve has done to others, including Egwene. I do not mean the actual dream attack; but Nynaeve using her power to threaten and get others what she wants.
Egwene is my favorite character. I think she gets a lot of hate. I do not think it is undeserved. She is eager to learn and willing to immerse herself with whatever group she is with. I think this is a positive aspect.
She is a quick learner and very smart. She listens to Moiraine's politics/ Game of Houses lessons Moiraine gives to Rand. Egwene takes those lessons along with lessons from Siuan to be successfully survivor the political quagmire that is the Rebel camp, Eladia's tower and the reunified Tower. IMO, she has some of the best moments in the series: a) when she accepts she has toh to the Wise Ones for pretending to be an Aes Sedai; b) how she takes control of first the original ruling council in Salidar and then the Salidar Hall; c) her turning the tide with Eladia (especially how she stands up to Eladia at the second dinner; d) her battle with Mesaana in the World of Dreams; e) Egwene leading the fight against the Seanchan while at first suffering from the effects of forkroot; and f) her final sacrifice at the Last Battle - without which, the Light probably does not win.
Egwene's not a sponge, she's a mimic and a poor mimic at that, if you read her and know what it is she's doing while also noticing what she's saying, she's hypocritical about everything and she ALWAYS thinks she in the right, when she's never in the right at any point in the entire series.
Oh and btw she doesn't have ANY skills at all.
There is no scene in the entire series where she shows talent for anything except destruction. She has an intuitive ability in Dreaming but focuses more on Tel'aran'rhiod than that and is quickly eclipsed by Perrin in every aspect.
Any channelling she does that people COULD attribute to her, is better attributed to others giving her hints or outright showing her what to do, she doesn't show she can create things, the most she does is show how to create the inverse of Cuendillar one time and then - after Moghedian is shown to her - can miraculously create the stuff.
Similarly she KNOWS that Rand and Avihendia were supposedly having sex in the tents the previous night and would've questioned her 'friend' about it afterwards as she is a nosy bint who can't leave well enough alone.
Do you really think that Avihendia would not have told her that she fled from Rand and did 'something' but can't remember exactly what it was? And having her ferret it out?
Because that's what she does, with everything and even with things that are outside of channelling, she pries and pokes and invades others lives to get information and knowledge on them so she can do things herself.
The most we learn is that Egwene is good at finding Ore and Blowing things up, anything else is suspect.
Egwene = Buffy the Vampire Slayer
omfg i have a vry diff interpretation of why I hate her falling in love with gawyn. she is pulled into his erotic dream and experiences intense things without her consent. not his fault - he doesn't know she's actually there, and he is unconsciously dreaming. but it is his fantasized version of what she would experience in this scenario... which I cannot imagine would be remotely realistic, given the avg man's understanding of female physiology. but she does experience his fantasy of being with her, and then immediately around a random corner (not ta'veren my ass) smacks into this boy she's just lived fully holodeck erotic dream with... and she falls in love with him. okay... I could deal with this, problematic as it is. but the mere idea that she didn't outgrow this "relationship" by the next time they met is just absurd.
I don't think that what happened in TAR between Eg and Nyn was what Eg intended. I think that Eg lost control (as she was doing ALL THE TIME STILL) of her conjuration. She probably thought "something to scare Nynaeve" and TAR pulled from the darkest recesses of her subconscious mind, not from her conscious thoughts. TAR has a habit of pulling from the subconconsious mind of people who don't have full control over their mind and TAR yet, and Egwene was still a newcomer there, still had her training wheels on. To blame her for something that obviously had totally gotten out of her control... I'd like to see anyone reading this get drunk, spin around in circles for five minutes and try to shot a target on a wall 20 feet away and then go ahead and blame Egwene about control. Since we don't have TAR to go into.
Yeah, okay we are on the same page tFoH
Few fictional characters infuriate me more than Egwene does. Her level of entitlement and self-righteousness is like SO off the charts that it made her POVs kinda unbearable at times for me.
Also...when you say you "pretend something doesn't happen" that doesn't really seem like a good idea. If we just pick and choose which character moments we like and ignore others then we're not really reading the original story.
heh, sorry, I kind of have to laugh at 'that doesn't seem like a good idea' cause... this is fiction. It's not a sacred text to live by. It's 15 books of fantasy, and the one paragraph that this particular thing happens in would kind of ruin a major character for me, so I omit it. It doesn't hurt anyone or the story. It's picking the olives off of the pizza before eating it. I still ate the pizza, I just didn't eat the gross olives. YMMV
@@LezbiNerdy Sure, but Jordan wrote that scene to be part of Egwene's character. To just ignore certain scenes because they make you uncomfortable means your'e mentally making your own characters, not reading the ones Jordan made.
To each their own, though. I certainly don't have the right to tell people how to read.
but srsly, egw is the youngest person here until we get to olver! (maybe elayne is egw's age?) I've heard unending defenses of mat's behavior, who is 3 yrs older, but whenever egw acts like a teenager at all, she is just unlikable. she's a teenager! and she matures as fast or faster than most of the characters 3-10 years her senior
Whatever it takes and the common good are prevelent themes in the WOT. Egwene is an exemplar and is judged harshly by Jordan’s exploration. After all she dies and while the Aei Sedai needed Egwene the pattern didn’t leave her in charge. I love the depth of RJs characters and world. Hating Egwene or any other is justified as RJ intended
Good content but there is a weird high pitched sound mixed in that I just couldn't get through.
She is the Hermione of WOT. People don't like ambitious women. It's bigotry. Egwene is ambitious and she know what she wants. Nothing wrong with that. I have nothing in common with Egwene. She is so much better and more courageous than I am. I think a lot of the fandom is just jealous of her. Now I DO think the sexism of the book makes her big mistake that she does not worship Rand.
I do have trouble with the writing around Salidar and when she is captured by Elaida but only because it is so long!
Good video. I agree for the most part and had to go back and find that paragraph. I remember this scene as Ny with a high pitched screech that just tugs at my heart. I don’t think you are harsh enough on her! Egwene is that hot overachieving student that knows everyone wants her and thinks she is better than everyone. She has some validation because she has had success and it only makes her worse. Her only redeeming quality to me is her work ethic
I don't dislike Eggy as badly as some in the fanbase, however my attitude about her does change.
I see pre politician Egwene, she's irritating but still ok.
Then there's Egwene the politician, while I understand that deals have to be made, I think she becomes arrogant and proud. The position practically demands it The Amerlyn is a ruler, she must be, but Egwene seems to relish her new power , and for me this is how she loses my good favor as a character.
Egwene, mayor's daughter / wisdom in training, who lives in the biggest house in town, leaves tiny town and sees the bigger world for the first time.
Matt is my favorite character
and I totaly agree about Egwene ^^
Egwene is manipulative.
No lets not talk about her. Lets bury her under a prison :D unless it's to complain about her lol
On a more serious note tho. She thinks she's going to control the aes Sedai but after all siuan's training she becomes just like all the other aes Sedai to win them over to become amyrlin and stays that way. Unlike nynaeve who said it best. If she's to choose between saving people and becoming aes sedai? She'd rather not be aes sedai at all . Egwene loses herself to reach the top . Nynaeve didn't. That's why I hate egwene and love nynaeve lol.
Even during the fight with messana in the dream, Perrin shows egwene how strong he is by dissipating balefire weaves and to her, he is in a place he doesn't understand lol. I mean bitch pls. Take a fucking step back and really think about it.
@UCtlHEDTejTGQV5EdVZXqanQ I fell asleep 5 minutes into citizen kane xD
@@Gunleaver I didn't actually even think of that lol
I think a lot of fandom's dislike of Egwene is because they see Egwene doing many things an 18 should not be able to do (both from a magical and character perspective). By the latter, I mean that she takes actions that would be expected of someone who has much more experience than does Egwene. In my opinion, the problem lies with the fact that a plausible in-world solution existed. However, Robert Jordan did not use it: tav'eren. Mat, Perrin, and Rand have similar experiences that belie their knowledge and experience; yet the story gives an out as it is due to their tav'eren nature. RJ said Egwene was not tav'eren. Had he said she was tav'eren, then some of the things she does without the typical experience and/or knowledge one would expect to accomplish such task could have been easily understood.
I on book seven and yes I agree egwene, is becoming marry-sue and a red coat. She is meant to die. Plus the aio I have huge beef is not funny at all.. they are op and there way of life is like the Spartans and they all die because of low population. Yes the maidens of the spear are some of my favorites from the books but as a military man that is one of the worst mistakes a culture of any kind real or fake can make. Having 2000 women solely dedicated to being an army man and not having children is plan stupid no society in history ever survived doing that why the author put them in the book like the unsully makes no military since whatsoever this culture should have died out years before the dragon be born ever came to them. There in a desert with thousands of slaves no water and half the women not bearing any children is just a stretch too far. And a society of 7,000 can take any other children and hide them without anyone else knowing yeah check please. My beef I have with these books or they're just too unbelievable they get real and then you come to the next chapter and it gets dumb and takes you out of the fun.
Eggy is a try hard, she would be the young woman crying after an exam because she made a mistake and didn't get a 100% on it. I actually like that we only get glimpses of what happens when she is collared, imagination can fill in the details in a way you cant write (kinda like the figs and mice). I love her right up to the point of the author change, Its unfair but I dont think Brandon was the writer to finish her story properly (no hate ment, i love Brandon and what he did for WOT, but nobody can do everything right, and maybe if RJ was able to finish i still would have problems with her). All that she WAS the Amerlyn crap just felt lazy to me, she does not treat her closest friends with the respect they deserve. She should know exactly what right the Aes Sedai have to have a say in the seals, this argument is only there to create conflict, lazy again imo. But then she has a spectacular ending so its certainly not all bad in Brandons books. Either way all in all I call her a great character, She is easy to attack, hard to defend as a person, but her heart is in the right spot, she does great stuff, has horrible things happen to her, and she has one of the coolest endings in the series.
She was wrong in the way she treated Rand, when tells her about the seals.
I feel like Egwene is, along side being a horrible person, way too powerful. The story takes place over 2-3 years and in that time she becomes one of the strongest channelers, as well as one of the best dream walkers. IMO it's not very believable that in the few months she is actively training in the one power she becomes, at least in my interpretation, as skilled at doing complicates weaves, as well as multiple weaves at the same time as any aes sedai who typically take over a decade to become aes sedai and keep improving over their lives. As well as this she kills a forsaken in TAR, despite the fact that Messana was almost certainly there in the flesh, while also having hundreds of years of experience dream walking, compared to Egwene's one or two. It just frustrates me that Egwene becomes so powerful so quickly, while essentially putting in no work when compared to all the other aes sedai.
Egwene, and Sansa sucks. Miss I know everything and the little bird.
Of course, this is my opinion.
@@Gunleaver Better? What would not be wrong with Sansa😂