Actually, Gollum wouldn't even try the cooked rabbit soup that Sam made and that would have been good for him too. After 500 years, it should be hard to break any habit or wrong perception.
I think this is closer to the truth. When you add in the fact that he was a prisoner of the Elves for so long and probably associates the touch, taste and smell of Elven things with that time I don't think there needs to be a metaphysical root for the revulsion.
I think it's like when the Silmaril burnt Maedros's hand because he was "unclean" (in the Biblical sense) and when it burned Carcharoth but not Beren or anyone else in Doriath or the refugee community at the Mouths of Sirion.
Tolkien Geek, The second part of your theorizing makes great sense to me. Also it is fitting that the metaphysics of Tolkien's subcreation mirror the metaphysics of the real world of Tolkien's Catholic theology. That is, lembas was given to be sustaining food, and the more one relies on it, the more it sustains his life. This is an image of the Sacrament, which Tolkien admitted in interviews. We already agree that Gollum is totally corrupted and enthralled to evil, so that even when Frodo is kind to him he returns to his evil plot to obtain the Ring. This is the perfect image of a soul incapable of receiving forgiveness because it refuses that grace. This kind of corrupt soul cannot endure something that is meant for purity and life. Hence, Gollum cannot eat lembas. As for elven rope, it is made of hithlain which comes from the inner bark of the mallorn tree. Since mallorn trees originated in Valinor, we may assume that they in some manner contain the light and life of that eternal land. Anything made from them would then be anathema to someone immersed in the dark, like Gollum. Great work, friend Geek. Namarie.
I don't think Gollum is wholly corrupt. Remember that before Sam's intervention Sméagol seemed to be regretting his decision to give Frodo over to Shelob, and almost seemed like he would have exchanged course
@@vibecheck3572 When Gollum returned from "sneaking," i.e., making final arrangements with Shelob, he found the hobbits sleeping and it reminded him of bygone days when he was himself like them, when life was simpler and long before the Ring. But it was not enough to convert his heart. Sam reacted as any stout friend would have when suddenly awakened in such a dangerous place. If Gollum had truly repented of his decision, he would have found another way around Cirith Ungol. But he did not.
@@ecthelionofthefountain8267 I think definitely, not probably. Frodo had already succumbed to the lure of the Ring and had put it on and said that he would keep it and not destroy it.
So based ony understanding of your thoughts on this, if Gollum had been taken to Valinor (thought experiment), he would basically go through a very painful rehab, rather than suddenly bursting into flames and being emulated stepping on the shore and being "purified" of all his accumulated corruption?
Well, there's also the thing with the pretty common rabbits, to me Gollum simply went into a process of de-evolution produced by the ring influence: his teeth are pointy, he can see in the darkness (even his eyes glow), he have some modicum of super-hobbit strenght and agility, so to me could be that he's not omnivorous anymore, that's why he cannot eat Lembas. As for the rope, it's quite clear with the Aragorn and Elves captivity that he cannot bear any kind of restraints, all the wailing could be just a deceit so the hobbbit let him free from his restraints. Also, the rope es clealry "magical", remember it glows in the dark and untied itself when Sam wanted to recover it.
About Smeagol's possession of the ring and his transition to "wraithhood", maybe during the time he possessed it the ring did not have the full power of Sauron since Sauron was not bending his will to the ring as much as when he finally knew for sure it still existed. Sauron was occupied with "regenerating" (for lack of a better word) himself in Mirkwood so that he could have power and authority of over the ring wraiths, orcs, and other evil creatures to rebuild his domain in Mordor. Smeagol was of that hearty stock that the Hobbits came from, but hundreds, perhaps thousands of years he had the ring would have turned him into a wraith if Sauron had been aware. Gandalf did say the ring possessed him but not to the extent that Frodo and was bombarded with. Even those around Frodo felt the power of the ring coupled with Sauron's will bent to it and its synergistic power that Sauron had put into it at its creation - Bilbo, Boromir, Galadriel, Gandalf, Sam, Denethor and Gollum.
Are you asking why a creature or person corrupted by darkness would be weak towards people or things carrying the light of the goodness within them? It would seem to be a pretty straightforward answer, darkness is weak when confronted by the light. a scenario we see play out countless times during the course of the great music.
It's an interesting theory but I don't think it's necessary to get so far with it. The elves put part of themselves on their items, that's what makes those objects "elven" and gives them power... Their will is in those items. Elves have ill will against all evil things. Just like Glamdring reacts to orc presence, because they were enemies of its original creators, other elven items like the rope, react to evil and hurt those that have been consumed by it. And Gollum is evil. So the idea is that "elven" objects that wear part of the essence of the elves, "magic elven items" to explain it more roughly, would always hurt Gollum. Evil men would probably react the same, why not? Do we have prove that evil men can touch elven objects with power without consequences? If not, I think that's enough to explain it, I like it simple.
Frodo didn’t have an Elven blade at Weathertop, but also didn’t hit the Witch King. Merry also didn’t have an Elven blade. It was made by the men of Arnor.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yep, and we know that the men of Arnor had enough will to make magic to some degree, to create magic artifacts and buildings. They were closer to the elves than any other tribe of men after all.
My thoughts had always thought that, since Gollum literally obsessed over the Ring for 500 years and used it very regularly, that a small portion of Sauron's corrupted power (his Fea [magic]) had passed from the Ring into him. The reason I thought this was, when Sauron was growing in strength again, Gollum was drawn, almost against his will, toward Mordor, which is part of why he was captured. Adding this theory Gollum being drawn more into Wraithworld, and things make more sense.
Galadriel's mirror has shades of Arthur C Clarke's quote - “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. Gollum recoils from it, the same way Elrond recoils from a Morgul blade; I always assumed Gollum, having been suffused with Sauron's energy or darkness from the One Ring, is now pained by things made by Eldar or those in the light!? :D
A magnificent video, never gave the allergic reaction to rope and lembas, or Gollum's reactions too much thought but now that I think about it, it is one of the most important moments. Thanks for this video and the amount of thought put into this topic! It's changed how I view Gollum, so that he seems even more pitiable!
"Elves don´t love living underground". I wonder. Thranduil´s caves, some of the elven fortresses in Beleriand (Nargothrond, part of Tol Sirion...)? Won´t you make a video on this topic?
10:00 Raw fish is not inherently bad. What LotR character would be best off singing ... (tune : Barbie Girl) I'm a sushika in a sushi bar* I like salmon .... I like sea-weed ...? * Yeah, I learned British English in school.
My thought had been that whatever magic the elves had used to make lembas, they reduced the amount of morgoth present in the food, and the increased purity is what made it unpleasant for Golum. Same for the rope.
Off topic: Do you have any thoughts about how the songs in Ainulindalë maps to what happens in Arda later on? Eru's mood at each stage, and what the Valar get to know from the vision they got. (Maybe you already have a video about the topic?)
Ingenious idea. It might also explain the Silmarils reaction to anything corrupt, since the light they held was made by the Valar, they would have a similar effect but much stronger...
I always thought of Gollum's trouble with all things Elvish the same way mammals react to capsaicin - it hurts them, while it does not hurt birds or other non-mammals. Imagine what it would be to be bound by a rope covert with such a substance, or to have to it something that hurts you. You would spit it out and tried to get that stuff out of your mouth.
I figured Gollum took on some of Sauron's aspects by carrying his ring for so long. But then I guess we don't actually know whether Sauron would feel badly about touching Elvish items in his corrupted form or not...
One of the reasons that Golum liked raw fish was that he was _eating_ it. He was devouring it, consuming it and making it part of himself. And perhaps this mirrors what the Ring is doing to him.
Too much of anything can be harmful, and unfamiliarity is often uncomfortable. For the corrupted Smeagol anything made by the Eldar would be an irritant (not an allergen). Cooked food was of course alien to him, as he ate everything raw. Also, his reactions were probably more psychological than even he realized.
I realize it's silly but how about this angle: Gollum has pretty much been on a raw keto diet for the longest time so he can't even stand the thought of carbs (the elven bread) and cooked meat. His body is just rejecting it. All he's ever eaten for a few hundred years was meat, fish and eggs, all of that raw.
This isn't a theory, just a clue that might cast light on the topic. Somewhere in Tolkien's _Letters_ -- unfortunately I can't find it easily at the moment -- he quotes Gollum's reaction to lembas ("Leaves out of the elf-country, gah! We can't eat that") as an analogy to some real person's reaction to some real thing. I imagine the disliked thing was probably fantasy fiction, maybe LotR in particular, but it might have been something else. If this passage could be found it might cast light on how JRRT thought Gollum's revulsion worked.
Gollum's reaction in my mind is similar to that of a kid who has to eat broccoli or wear woolen pants. Not so much the fact that there is or isn't any amount of discomfort but the reaction itself which is beyond all proportion. Kids will have a strong averse reaction with tears, anger, recriminations, pleading etc. Gollum is playing this up to the highest level, he misguided the elves when Aragorn asked them to keep him, and he hopes that the stupid Hobbitses will take pity on him, and cut the rope so that he can slip off and get the ring back. He has a low opinion of anything the Hobbits do and given that he lived for centuries in close proximity with goblins he absorbed their cultural biases and hatred of the elves by osmosis.
Elves, like Maia and Valar, have a feedback loop power relationship with matter. The extreme of this is Sauron's ring and Morgoth's corruption of the entire world. Elves draw power from land, stars, etc, and in return, they put their power into the land and crafted objects. Everything they make, are little micro-one-rings.
Gollum isnt becoming a traditional wraith but one that is becoming one with sauron's grand ring so it might be up for debate on whether had gollum not fallen into orodruin's lava pit and given 1,000 years or so sauron's ruling ring may just be gollum's instead of saurons. But on the topic of why smeagol hates all that is fair and good is because at the end of the day its fear and self loathing that he killed his best friend deagal over his lust for a petty ring of great power.
Gollum is just a very fussy eater. It's often said that as we get older we can become more infantile and Gollum is hundreds of years old, so he's reverted back troublesome toddler where anything they don't like is a catastrophe and the end of the world.
I have the question, Why did not Gollum age, when Bilbo did age? What I mean is that Gollum did not age when he lost the ring, though Bilbo did age when he gave the ring away. Could this be the wraithifaction that Gollum has gone through or is it because he could let go of the ring?
It’s really only the movies that show Bilbo having aged in Rivendell; going by the book I think we can assume neither of them did (or would) till the Ring was destroyed.
Is logical that Gollum reject anything that remember him of his old Sméagol persona, Gollum is comsumed by greed but also by regrets, i think is a more simple anwser, he is tormented mentally for his sins, so anything that remember him of his true self get a aversion reaction on him, elves food, cloth and customs are closer to hobbits than to goblins that is what he is accostumed on the Misty mountains.
I'm not gonna lie... I thought that this was simply due to his captivity in Thranduil's dungeons. I figured that he just grew a hatred of all things elven. Maybe I just looked at it in a far to simplistic way.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I actually thought about that. He was not a dumb creature by any means and he did spend a fair amount of time in the dungeons. I feel he would have been able to tell elvish rope from normal rope. I could be way off though, just thinking out load :)
Which itself is a metaphysical thing. The term “elf-friend” is a synonym for “good guy”. A dislike for elves, no matter how logical the justification, is a sign of becoming evil. The Númenoreans looking down on Gilgalad because he couldn’t defeat Sauron on his own, is the first step in their corruption. A healthy, normal, sane person will like elves and elven things: even if they end up in an elven prison for some reason. See Bilbo.
An interesting analysis. But I think you're mistaken on one minor point. You said that elves don't like living underground. Weren't Menegroth and Nargothrond both in caves?
This may help regarding Gollum's reaction and the verses of Milton's Paradise Lost an an interpretation: a. Gollum's reaction to Lembas: ""Ach! No!" he spluttered. "You try to choke poor Smeagol. Dust and ashes, he can't eat that." b. Read Milton's Paradise, Book 10, Lines 550-551; 565-567. Line 565: 'Chewed bitter ashes, which offended the taste'.
@@olerocker3470 Without a doubt at this point in time Gollum is considered a shadow figure that eternalizes the sins of both Sam and Frodo. And it is part of God's plan to destroy the one Ring and restore balance to the Kingdom of Heaven / aka the afterlife. In order to do this Gollum has got to be part of this plan. Milton's Paradise Lost, like Dante's Comedia, significantly influences Tolkien's layout of Middle-earth and attributes of many characters. Never read C.S. Lewis' 'The Last Battle'.
In the LOTR appendices, when Aragorn dies - or rather , gives up his life to what seems a sleep instead of death, Arwen then really understands the plight or doom of both men and elves. A bitter pill to swallow it seems as she goes back to where she lived a large part of her life and "fades away" alone. I think the elves as a group synergized with each other and Arwen alone could not go on while men, as symbolized in Aragorn were rugged individuals that could survive on their own. I always wished that Arwen had found her way back to the paradise the others had gone to long before Aragorn died. I even wrote a short story in which both Gimli and Legolas hear of Aragorn's death and seek out Arwen in Lothlorien and bring her to the Havens where the very last of the elves go into the West. But - that is not how the great writer of these myths portrayed it.
Elves are bound to Arda, while Men leave the Halls of Mandos after a short time to a fate that only Ilúvatar knows. As written, Aragorn and Arwen on only separated for a year, while in your scenario they would be separated forever (or at least until the Second Music).
I think this phenomena is related with Christian Catholic faith. Gollum was bearing Sauron's ring for long time, so he is kinda possessed by evil spirit. We know from the practice of exorcism, that possessed people hate holly objects. I have read, that lembas in Tolkiens works is connected with Holly bread (Communion). Elvish "magic" is also perceived as good.
How I think of it is the one ring corrupted Gollums body and he had it for so long that it was irreversible unless in Valinor. Like with Morgoth Holding the Silimarils in his hands but on a way lower scale.
Hey, I feel personally attacked! I hate the sun, or at least full sunlight (before and after the sun is up it can be kind of pleasant). It's too hot for me and melanoma killed basically my mom's whole family. I don't think I'm an evil creature like Gollum, though.
I think Gollum has an aversion to Elven bread and no memories of po-ta-toes and thinks the idea of them revolting is simple...he has been hiding in the cave for 500-ish years, however long it took him to go underground after his evil deed, and he has physically changed. Not Meta physically per se. For 500 years he's had plenty of fish. He probably did cook them out nitially, but his total obsession with protecting The Precious caused him to tweak his tastes and settle for less, and less, and less...over time, completely forgetting what anything else was like. Also, underground living for 500 years would actually cause blindness as that situation would cause blindness in a normal human in a fraction of the time. Small forays into the sunlight or even a bright moonlight would be tortuous, starlight, piercing! As for the rope... Probably a lot of PTSD involved. I'm Sauron did not spare rod or the rope. But before then, how many times would we think Gollum was physically restrained but scratchy hemp rope around his neck?? Maybe never...in which case ANYthing touching his neck would be intolerable. Rope, especially a natural material would leave ligature marks so if he complained of it "burning", it most certainly would have. My logic takes in only my limited reading of LotR so there is likely a lot more evidence to your point of view than mine. But you asked for our opinions and I have barely 2cents worth. Its fun to talk about these things.
Sauron seems to cycle quickly through admiration, envy, domination/possession, and after resistance or conflict inevitable arises, hatred and destruction.
Sauron never had a hröa, a body, to begin with. So no. He would likely have no particular reaction to the rope or most other elvish things. He wouldn’t be more allergic to them than to anything else physical. However, lembas *would* be disgusting to him. It is not merely elvish, but holy. Here is the irony of Sauron’s position though. On the one hand, he hates everything elvish. On the other hand: when he goes to make the Black Speech he uses elvish roots. To write it, he uses elvish letters. Orcs are mockeries of elves, perhaps they even originally were elves. To make the Rings of Power and distribute them, he needs an elven smith. To trick people into liking him, he takes a fair elvish form. He goes to corrupt Celebrimbor, but finds himself genuinely liking the elf. He desires all things elvish, and hates them because he can’t possess them. In particular, Celebrimbor is everything Sauron dreamed of elves being: back when he was a good guy. He is the creature that Sauron wanted so badly to prepare the world for. He was so disturbed by the wildness and unruliness of nature, because he pitied a creature exactly like Celebrimbor. But Celebrimbor loves nature and wishes to preserve it. Hence why Sauron goes full jilted psycho on him.
The water in Galadriel's Mirror carrying the music of the Ainulindale makes sense. But Galadriel also was wearing Nenya, the Ring of Water. I wonder if she could have done the magic without Nenya.🤔
I'd think so. Galadriel learned a great deal from Melian in her time in Doriath; there was a great deal she could do without the ring, which seemed to mostly help Lothlórien remain unchanged by events in the outer world.
I always assumed the "magic" was in the vessel. Galadriel is Noldo and they are skilled in Craft. I just assumed she put her foresight, wisdom, and desire for knowledge into the Mirror and that the water is just the medium for the action of the Mirror.
@@Enerdhil She doesn't have to be a Maia. We know she's an elf born under the light of the Two Trees and very powerful on her own. She received one of the elven rings because she was one of those most capable of keeping it away from Sauron.
@@beatleblev I agree with the Tolkien Geek's take on the water. After all, you can see the past, the present and the future in the mirror. And all of those are contained in the Ainulindale. Maybe Melian taught Galadriel how see those things in the water, but she did have the Ring of Water, which should enhance any powers she had before.
How does the end change if gollum actually has a change of heart. And stays "good". Sam accepts his change moreso. Assuming they get to the cracks of doom how does the ring get destroyed?
In an early draft Sam actually sacrifices himself to get the job done so we might have seen something like that, with either he or Gollum taking the Ring to the fire, though taking it by force doesn’t seem a natural prelude to destroying it….
@@TolkienLorePodcast I always kinda hoped in that setup that Sam and smegle would be like get rid of it. And frodo seeing both his friend and what he could become tossed it willingly. But don't think that's likely eather
Tolkien addresses this "what if" in _Letters_ p. 330 (letter # 246). One of his ideas is that a partly reformed Gollum, having grabbed the Ring from Frodo, would suddenly see that (a) he couldn't overcome Sauron by using the Ring, (b) he could best serve Frodo by destroying the Ring, and (c) he could still "keep" the Ring as his own by jumping in while holding it!
So this time I disagree. Seems to me the good/"holy" hurting Gollum is the much simpler explanation. You dismissed the analogy to the Silmarils at the beginning, and I thought, but why? The Silmarils are vastly more powerful than an elven rope or chunk of lembas, and are directly hallowed by Varda herself. Naturally, or so I think, they would do much more damage to those with evil in them than some nearly average elf objects of the Third Age, and moreover it wouldn't have to be some direct influence of Melkor or Sauron in the holder that elicits the anti-response, as the Silmarils are THAT powerful. The entirety of Lothlorien and all its works have some "holiness" in them as they are all, to lesser or greater degree, imbued with some of what holiness is within Galadriel (magnified and channeled through Nenya), and my opinion is there is a bunch. I take Tolkien's comments about the light of the two trees in her hair as signifying that she is in fact more charged with that power (and this holiness) than anyone else except probably Feanor. The sun is a fruit of Laurelin, so that would explain why Gollum has such a hateful reaction to it. As I recall he avoids the light of the moon as well, although we never did get the same reaction, I admit. But in the sun's case simple brightness would add to its pain for Gollum, as he sure lives in the dark and is accustomed to that for centuries.
I meant to mention in my video, but one reason I discount this view is precisely because the Silmarils were hallowed, and that is why they burn evil flesh. Lembas and elven rope may be “goo” but they are not “hallowed.” Also there’s no indication they cause anything other than discomfort, which is as likely to be true of a cure as a disease. And then there’s Frodo’s opinion that Lembas would be good for Gollum. Now he could be wrong, but on balance we have to take his word as best evidence, and if he’s right then that is a stark contrast with the Silmarils, which could never do good to an evil creature (also remember it’s not just evil, but *mortal* flesh that cannot abide the Silmarils).
I remember an interview where Tolkien likened lembas to the sacrament wafers given in catholic mass, there is a belief that to non catholics these will taste of ashes. The rope thing is a plot device, Gollum has to be given freedom and the opportunity of betrayal. Folk would think why not just use the rope, so it had to become unusable. I don’t mean there is anything wrong with your theories, it is just worth recognising the few plot devices he uses.
Which is exactly why we should make note the few times he does. I feel we can give him this one, he must write to create the missing mythology it must be consistent with his theology and the words names and everything else must be phologcally pleasing to him. a big balancing act, on a few occassions he used plot device we must just let him get away with it.
Actually, Gollum wouldn't even try the cooked rabbit soup that Sam made and that would have been good for him too. After 500 years, it should be hard to break any habit or wrong perception.
I think this is closer to the truth. When you add in the fact that he was a prisoner of the Elves for so long and probably associates the touch, taste and smell of Elven things with that time I don't think there needs to be a metaphysical root for the revulsion.
I think it's like when the Silmaril burnt Maedros's hand because he was "unclean" (in the Biblical sense) and when it burned Carcharoth but not Beren or anyone else in Doriath or the refugee community at the Mouths of Sirion.
Tolkien Geek, The second part of your theorizing makes great sense to me. Also it is fitting that the metaphysics of Tolkien's subcreation mirror the metaphysics of the real world of Tolkien's Catholic theology. That is, lembas was given to be sustaining food, and the more one relies on it, the more it sustains his life. This is an image of the Sacrament, which Tolkien admitted in interviews. We already agree that Gollum is totally corrupted and enthralled to evil, so that even when Frodo is kind to him he returns to his evil plot to obtain the Ring. This is the perfect image of a soul incapable of receiving forgiveness because it refuses that grace. This kind of corrupt soul cannot endure something that is meant for purity and life. Hence, Gollum cannot eat lembas. As for elven rope, it is made of hithlain which comes from the inner bark of the mallorn tree. Since mallorn trees originated in Valinor, we may assume that they in some manner contain the light and life of that eternal land. Anything made from them would then be anathema to someone immersed in the dark, like Gollum. Great work, friend Geek. Namarie.
I don't think Gollum is wholly corrupt. Remember that before Sam's intervention Sméagol seemed to be regretting his decision to give Frodo over to Shelob, and almost seemed like he would have exchanged course
@@vibecheck3572 When Gollum returned from "sneaking," i.e., making final arrangements with Shelob, he found the hobbits sleeping and it reminded him of bygone days when he was himself like them, when life was simpler and long before the Ring. But it was not enough to convert his heart. Sam reacted as any stout friend would have when suddenly awakened in such a dangerous place. If Gollum had truly repented of his decision, he would have found another way around Cirith Ungol. But he did not.
@@gandalfolorin-kl3pj If it wasn't for Gollum the ring probably wouldn't have got destroyed.
@@ecthelionofthefountain8267 That was because Gollum's own greed and lust for the Ring undid him in the end.
@@ecthelionofthefountain8267 I think definitely, not probably. Frodo had already succumbed to the lure of the Ring and had put it on and said that he would keep it and not destroy it.
Thanks for creating a video on my question!
So based ony understanding of your thoughts on this, if Gollum had been taken to Valinor (thought experiment), he would basically go through a very painful rehab, rather than suddenly bursting into flames and being emulated stepping on the shore and being "purified" of all his accumulated corruption?
Yeah, you could say that lol
It would have been a good ending for him. Unfortunately the ring won his mind in the end (which ironically saved the world)
Well, there's also the thing with the pretty common rabbits, to me Gollum simply went into a process of de-evolution produced by the ring influence: his teeth are pointy, he can see in the darkness (even his eyes glow), he have some modicum of super-hobbit strenght and agility, so to me could be that he's not omnivorous anymore, that's why he cannot eat Lembas. As for the rope, it's quite clear with the Aragorn and Elves captivity that he cannot bear any kind of restraints, all the wailing could be just a deceit so the hobbbit let him free from his restraints. Also, the rope es clealry "magical", remember it glows in the dark and untied itself when Sam wanted to recover it.
Thank You So Much :-)
I'm really enjoying your channel immensely, Girl Next Gondor has been turning me onto some good stuff. First Clueless Fangirl and now you.
Brilliant observations
Great video!
About Smeagol's possession of the ring and his transition to "wraithhood", maybe during the time he possessed it the ring did not have the full power of Sauron since Sauron was not bending his will to the ring as much as when he finally knew for sure it still existed. Sauron was occupied with "regenerating" (for lack of a better word) himself in Mirkwood so that he could have power and authority of over the ring wraiths, orcs, and other evil creatures to rebuild his domain in Mordor. Smeagol was of that hearty stock that the Hobbits came from, but hundreds, perhaps thousands of years he had the ring would have turned him into a wraith if Sauron had been aware. Gandalf did say the ring possessed him but not to the extent that Frodo and was bombarded with. Even those around Frodo felt the power of the ring coupled with Sauron's will bent to it and its synergistic power that Sauron had put into it at its creation - Bilbo, Boromir, Galadriel, Gandalf, Sam, Denethor and Gollum.
Are you asking why a creature or person corrupted by darkness would be weak towards people or things carrying the light of the goodness within them? It would seem to be a pretty straightforward answer, darkness is weak when confronted by the light. a scenario we see play out countless times during the course of the great music.
It's an interesting theory but I don't think it's necessary to get so far with it. The elves put part of themselves on their items, that's what makes those objects "elven" and gives them power... Their will is in those items. Elves have ill will against all evil things. Just like Glamdring reacts to orc presence, because they were enemies of its original creators, other elven items like the rope, react to evil and hurt those that have been consumed by it. And Gollum is evil.
So the idea is that "elven" objects that wear part of the essence of the elves, "magic elven items" to explain it more roughly, would always hurt Gollum. Evil men would probably react the same, why not? Do we have prove that evil men can touch elven objects with power without consequences?
If not, I think that's enough to explain it, I like it simple.
The Witch King was hurt by Frodo's elvin blade and later by Merry's , so that may be considered proof.
Frodo didn’t have an Elven blade at Weathertop, but also didn’t hit the Witch King. Merry also didn’t have an Elven blade. It was made by the men of Arnor.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yep, and we know that the men of Arnor had enough will to make magic to some degree, to create magic artifacts and buildings. They were closer to the elves than any other tribe of men after all.
My thoughts had always thought that, since Gollum literally obsessed over the Ring for 500 years and used it very regularly, that a small portion of Sauron's corrupted power (his Fea [magic]) had passed from the Ring into him.
The reason I thought this was, when Sauron was growing in strength again, Gollum was drawn, almost against his will, toward Mordor, which is part of why he was captured. Adding this theory Gollum being drawn more into Wraithworld, and things make more sense.
Galadriel's mirror has shades of Arthur C Clarke's quote - “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.
Gollum recoils from it, the same way Elrond recoils from a Morgul blade; I always assumed Gollum, having been suffused with Sauron's energy or darkness from the One Ring, is now pained by things made by Eldar or those in the light!? :D
A magnificent video, never gave the allergic reaction to rope and lembas, or Gollum's reactions too much thought but now that I think about it, it is one of the most important moments. Thanks for this video and the amount of thought put into this topic! It's changed how I view Gollum, so that he seems even more pitiable!
"Elves don´t love living underground". I wonder. Thranduil´s caves, some of the elven fortresses in Beleriand (Nargothrond, part of Tol Sirion...)? Won´t you make a video on this topic?
Those were all fortresses, most of them hidden. And even there they carved stone to look like trees.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Even so. In comparison to Lorien...
10:00 Raw fish is not inherently bad.
What LotR character would be best off singing ... (tune : Barbie Girl)
I'm a sushika
in a sushi bar*
I like salmon .... I like sea-weed ...?
* Yeah, I learned British English in school.
My thought had been that whatever magic the elves had used to make lembas, they reduced the amount of morgoth present in the food, and the increased purity is what made it unpleasant for Golum. Same for the rope.
Off topic: Do you have any thoughts about how the songs in Ainulindalë maps to what happens in Arda later on? Eru's mood at each stage, and what the Valar get to know from the vision they got. (Maybe you already have a video about the topic?)
I haven’t, in part because I don’t have a good answer yet lol
I thought in Terramar
Ingenious idea. It might also explain the Silmarils reaction to anything corrupt, since the light they held was made by the Valar, they would have a similar effect but much stronger...
I always thought of Gollum's trouble with all things Elvish the same way mammals react to capsaicin - it hurts them, while it does not hurt birds or other non-mammals. Imagine what it would be to be bound by a rope covert with such a substance, or to have to it something that hurts you. You would spit it out and tried to get that stuff out of your mouth.
I think you're on the right track.
I figured Gollum took on some of Sauron's aspects by carrying his ring for so long. But then I guess we don't actually know whether Sauron would feel badly about touching Elvish items in his corrupted form or not...
We do know that Sauron's servants, the black riders, avoided the elves and even their tokens, as seen on the bridge.
One of the reasons that Golum liked raw fish was that he was _eating_ it. He was devouring it, consuming it and making it part of himself. And perhaps this mirrors what the Ring is doing to him.
I wonder what Bilbo thought of the food in Rivendell.
Too much of anything can be harmful, and unfamiliarity is often uncomfortable.
For the corrupted Smeagol anything made by the Eldar would be an irritant (not an allergen).
Cooked food was of course alien to him, as he ate everything raw.
Also, his reactions were probably more psychological than even he realized.
I realize it's silly but how about this angle: Gollum has pretty much been on a raw keto diet for the longest time so he can't even stand the thought of carbs (the elven bread) and cooked meat. His body is just rejecting it. All he's ever eaten for a few hundred years was meat, fish and eggs, all of that raw.
Commenting for Al Gore's Rythm
This isn't a theory, just a clue that might cast light on the topic. Somewhere in Tolkien's _Letters_ -- unfortunately I can't find it easily at the moment -- he quotes Gollum's reaction to lembas ("Leaves out of the elf-country, gah! We can't eat that") as an analogy to some real person's reaction to some real thing. I imagine the disliked thing was probably fantasy fiction, maybe LotR in particular, but it might have been something else. If this passage could be found it might cast light on how JRRT thought Gollum's revulsion worked.
Gollum's reaction in my mind is similar to that of a kid who has to eat broccoli or wear woolen pants. Not so much the fact that there is or isn't any amount of discomfort but the reaction itself which is beyond all proportion. Kids will have a strong averse reaction with tears, anger, recriminations, pleading etc. Gollum is playing this up to the highest level, he misguided the elves when Aragorn asked them to keep him, and he hopes that the stupid Hobbitses will take pity on him, and cut the rope so that he can slip off and get the ring back. He has a low opinion of anything the Hobbits do and given that he lived for centuries in close proximity with goblins he absorbed their cultural biases and hatred of the elves by osmosis.
Elves, like Maia and Valar, have a feedback loop power relationship with matter. The extreme of this is Sauron's ring and Morgoth's corruption of the entire world. Elves draw power from land, stars, etc, and in return, they put their power into the land and crafted objects. Everything they make, are little micro-one-rings.
Gollum isnt becoming a traditional wraith but one that is becoming one with sauron's grand ring so it might be up for debate on whether had gollum not fallen into orodruin's lava pit and given 1,000 years or so sauron's ruling ring may just be gollum's instead of saurons. But on the topic of why smeagol hates all that is fair and good is because at the end of the day its fear and self loathing that he killed his best friend deagal over his lust for a petty ring of great power.
Gollum is just a very fussy eater. It's often said that as we get older we can become more infantile and Gollum is hundreds of years old, so he's reverted back troublesome toddler where anything they don't like is a catastrophe and the end of the world.
I have the question, Why did not Gollum age, when Bilbo did age? What I mean is that Gollum did not age when he lost the ring, though Bilbo did age when he gave the ring away. Could this be the wraithifaction that Gollum has gone through or is it because he could let go of the ring?
It’s really only the movies that show Bilbo having aged in Rivendell; going by the book I think we can assume neither of them did (or would) till the Ring was destroyed.
Is logical that Gollum reject anything that remember him of his old Sméagol persona, Gollum is comsumed by greed but also by regrets, i think is a more simple anwser, he is tormented mentally for his sins, so anything that remember him of his true self get a aversion reaction on him, elves food, cloth and customs are closer to hobbits than to goblins that is what he is accostumed on the Misty mountains.
Pretty simple really elven rope and bread are pure, Gollum is impure.
Elves are pure.
Reads The Silmarillion.
Elves are not pure.
I'm not gonna lie... I thought that this was simply due to his captivity in Thranduil's dungeons. I figured that he just grew a hatred of all things elven. Maybe I just looked at it in a far to simplistic way.
My first thought was the same.
I never thought of that, but even if it wasn't the main cause for his hatred of Elvish things, it certainly didn't help
How would he know the rope was Elvish though?
@@TolkienLorePodcast I actually thought about that. He was not a dumb creature by any means and he did spend a fair amount of time in the dungeons. I feel he would have been able to tell elvish rope from normal rope. I could be way off though, just thinking out load :)
Which itself is a metaphysical thing. The term “elf-friend” is a synonym for “good guy”. A dislike for elves, no matter how logical the justification, is a sign of becoming evil. The Númenoreans looking down on Gilgalad because he couldn’t defeat Sauron on his own, is the first step in their corruption. A healthy, normal, sane person will like elves and elven things: even if they end up in an elven prison for some reason. See Bilbo.
The Elves and Dwarves are Children of Ilúvatar same as we are, so there's no way that they aren't in some way eternal.
An interesting analysis. But I think you're mistaken on one minor point. You said that elves don't like living underground. Weren't Menegroth and Nargothrond both in caves?
Yes, but both were meant to be hidden defenses, not pleasure homes lol.
This may help regarding Gollum's reaction and the verses of Milton's Paradise Lost an an interpretation:
a. Gollum's reaction to Lembas: ""Ach! No!" he spluttered. "You try to choke poor Smeagol. Dust and ashes, he can't eat that."
b. Read Milton's Paradise, Book 10, Lines 550-551; 565-567.
Line 565: 'Chewed bitter ashes, which offended the taste'.
Hmmm, and that might even parallel the dwarves eating grass and hay thinking it was a banquet of food in Lewis' "The Last Battle".
@@olerocker3470 Without a doubt at this point in time Gollum is considered a shadow figure that eternalizes the sins of both Sam and Frodo. And it is part of God's plan to destroy the one Ring and restore balance to the Kingdom of Heaven / aka the afterlife. In order to do this Gollum has got to be part of this plan. Milton's Paradise Lost, like Dante's Comedia, significantly influences Tolkien's layout of Middle-earth and attributes of many characters.
Never read C.S. Lewis' 'The Last Battle'.
I wonder if the orcish men and half-orcs identified as in league with Saruman would have had the same reaction to the elven rope and to lembas.
In the LOTR appendices, when Aragorn dies - or rather , gives up his life to what seems a sleep instead of death, Arwen then really understands the plight or doom of both men and elves. A bitter pill to swallow it seems as she goes back to where she lived a large part of her life and "fades away" alone. I think the elves as a group synergized with each other and Arwen alone could not go on while men, as symbolized in Aragorn were rugged individuals that could survive on their own. I always wished that Arwen had found her way back to the paradise the others had gone to long before Aragorn died. I even wrote a short story in which both Gimli and Legolas hear of Aragorn's death and seek out Arwen in Lothlorien and bring her to the Havens where the very last of the elves go into the West. But - that is not how the great writer of these myths portrayed it.
Elves are bound to Arda, while Men leave the Halls of Mandos after a short time to a fate that only Ilúvatar knows. As written, Aragorn and Arwen on only separated for a year, while in your scenario they would be separated forever (or at least until the Second Music).
I think this phenomena is related with Christian Catholic faith. Gollum was bearing Sauron's ring for long time, so he is kinda possessed by evil spirit. We know from the practice of exorcism, that possessed people hate holly objects. I have read, that lembas in Tolkiens works is connected with Holly bread (Communion). Elvish "magic" is also perceived as good.
Hey guys, lembas is basically Holy cornbread.
How I think of it is the one ring corrupted Gollums body and he had it for so long that it was irreversible unless in Valinor. Like with Morgoth Holding the Silimarils in his hands but on a way lower scale.
He was 600+ yrs old.He would not survive the Rings destruction.
Hey, I feel personally attacked! I hate the sun, or at least full sunlight (before and after the sun is up it can be kind of pleasant). It's too hot for me and melanoma killed basically my mom's whole family. I don't think I'm an evil creature like Gollum, though.
I love your videos but they make me very aware of how little I know of the Tolkien Verse.
I think Gollum has an aversion to Elven bread and no memories of po-ta-toes and thinks the idea of them revolting is simple...he has been hiding in the cave for 500-ish years, however long it took him to go underground after his evil deed, and he has physically changed. Not Meta physically per se. For 500 years he's had plenty of fish. He probably did cook them out nitially, but his total obsession with protecting The Precious caused him to tweak his tastes and settle for less, and less, and less...over time, completely forgetting what anything else was like. Also, underground living for 500 years would actually cause blindness as that situation would cause blindness in a normal human in a fraction of the time. Small forays into the sunlight or even a bright moonlight would be tortuous, starlight, piercing! As for the rope... Probably a lot of PTSD involved. I'm Sauron did not spare rod or the rope. But before then, how many times would we think Gollum was physically restrained but scratchy hemp rope around his neck?? Maybe never...in which case ANYthing touching his neck would be intolerable. Rope, especially a natural material would leave ligature marks so if he complained of it "burning", it most certainly would have. My logic takes in only my limited reading of LotR so there is likely a lot more evidence to your point of view than mine. But you asked for our opinions and I have barely 2cents worth. Its fun to talk about these things.
I wonder if Sauron is extremely allergic to elvish things?
Sauron seems to cycle quickly through admiration, envy, domination/possession, and after resistance or conflict inevitable arises, hatred and destruction.
Sauron never had a hröa, a body, to begin with. So no. He would likely have no particular reaction to the rope or most other elvish things. He wouldn’t be more allergic to them than to anything else physical.
However, lembas *would* be disgusting to him. It is not merely elvish, but holy.
Here is the irony of Sauron’s position though. On the one hand, he hates everything elvish. On the other hand: when he goes to make the Black Speech he uses elvish roots. To write it, he uses elvish letters. Orcs are mockeries of elves, perhaps they even originally were elves. To make the Rings of Power and distribute them, he needs an elven smith. To trick people into liking him, he takes a fair elvish form. He goes to corrupt Celebrimbor, but finds himself genuinely liking the elf. He desires all things elvish, and hates them because he can’t possess them. In particular, Celebrimbor is everything Sauron dreamed of elves being: back when he was a good guy. He is the creature that Sauron wanted so badly to prepare the world for. He was so disturbed by the wildness and unruliness of nature, because he pitied a creature exactly like Celebrimbor. But Celebrimbor loves nature and wishes to preserve it. Hence why Sauron goes full jilted psycho on him.
The water in Galadriel's Mirror carrying the music of the Ainulindale makes sense. But Galadriel also was wearing Nenya, the Ring of Water. I wonder if she could have done the magic without Nenya.🤔
I'd think so. Galadriel learned a great deal from Melian in her time in Doriath; there was a great deal she could do without the ring, which seemed to mostly help Lothlórien remain unchanged by events in the outer world.
@@istari0
But she did all that while wearing Nenya. Also, getting mentored by an elite Maia doesn't necessarily make you one.
I always assumed the "magic" was in the vessel. Galadriel is Noldo and they are skilled in Craft. I just assumed she put her foresight, wisdom, and desire for knowledge into the Mirror and that the water is just the medium for the action of the Mirror.
@@Enerdhil She doesn't have to be a Maia. We know she's an elf born under the light of the Two Trees and very powerful on her own. She received one of the elven rings because she was one of those most capable of keeping it away from Sauron.
@@beatleblev
I agree with the Tolkien Geek's take on the water. After all, you can see the past, the present and the future in the mirror. And all of those are contained in the Ainulindale. Maybe Melian taught Galadriel how see those things in the water, but she did have the Ring of Water, which should enhance any powers she had before.
How does the end change if gollum actually has a change of heart. And stays "good". Sam accepts his change moreso. Assuming they get to the cracks of doom how does the ring get destroyed?
In an early draft Sam actually sacrifices himself to get the job done so we might have seen something like that, with either he or Gollum taking the Ring to the fire, though taking it by force doesn’t seem a natural prelude to destroying it….
@@TolkienLorePodcast I always kinda hoped in that setup that Sam and smegle would be like get rid of it. And frodo seeing both his friend and what he could become tossed it willingly. But don't think that's likely eather
Tolkien addresses this "what if" in _Letters_ p. 330 (letter # 246). One of his ideas is that a partly reformed Gollum, having grabbed the Ring from Frodo, would suddenly see that (a) he couldn't overcome Sauron by using the Ring, (b) he could best serve Frodo by destroying the Ring, and (c) he could still "keep" the Ring as his own by jumping in while holding it!
So this time I disagree. Seems to me the good/"holy" hurting Gollum is the much simpler explanation. You dismissed the analogy to the Silmarils at the beginning, and I thought, but why? The Silmarils are vastly more powerful than an elven rope or chunk of lembas, and are directly hallowed by Varda herself. Naturally, or so I think, they would do much more damage to those with evil in them than some nearly average elf objects of the Third Age, and moreover it wouldn't have to be some direct influence of Melkor or Sauron in the holder that elicits the anti-response, as the Silmarils are THAT powerful.
The entirety of Lothlorien and all its works have some "holiness" in them as they are all, to lesser or greater degree, imbued with some of what holiness is within Galadriel (magnified and channeled through Nenya), and my opinion is there is a bunch. I take Tolkien's comments about the light of the two trees in her hair as signifying that she is in fact more charged with that power (and this holiness) than anyone else except probably Feanor.
The sun is a fruit of Laurelin, so that would explain why Gollum has such a hateful reaction to it. As I recall he avoids the light of the moon as well, although we never did get the same reaction, I admit. But in the sun's case simple brightness would add to its pain for Gollum, as he sure lives in the dark and is accustomed to that for centuries.
I meant to mention in my video, but one reason I discount this view is precisely because the Silmarils were hallowed, and that is why they burn evil flesh. Lembas and elven rope may be “goo” but they are not “hallowed.” Also there’s no indication they cause anything other than discomfort, which is as likely to be true of a cure as a disease. And then there’s Frodo’s opinion that Lembas would be good for Gollum. Now he could be wrong, but on balance we have to take his word as best evidence, and if he’s right then that is a stark contrast with the Silmarils, which could never do good to an evil creature (also remember it’s not just evil, but *mortal* flesh that cannot abide the Silmarils).
Do Elves eat meat?
I see no reason to think they don’t.
There are hunting parties in Thranduil's woodland realm.
So Gollum was goth
I remember an interview where Tolkien likened lembas to the sacrament wafers given in catholic mass, there is a belief that to non catholics these will taste of ashes. The rope thing is a plot device, Gollum has to be given freedom and the opportunity of betrayal. Folk would think why not just use the rope, so it had to become unusable. I don’t mean there is anything wrong with your theories, it is just worth recognising the few plot devices he uses.
Tolkien rarely if ever resorts to mere “plot devices” though. He always tries for a consistent, rational explanation.
Which is exactly why we should make note the few times he does. I feel we can give him this one, he must write to create the missing mythology it must be consistent with his theology and the words names and everything else must be phologcally pleasing to him. a big balancing act, on a few occassions he used plot device we must just let him get away with it.
Ahhhh... You do realize these are works of fiction, don't you? Please say "yes".
You do realize you don’t have to watch a video just because it pops up in your feed, don’t you?
@jehrahme