Forge welding in a gas forge - fact or fiction
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- Опубликовано: 12 фев 2018
- I am often asked whether or not it is possible to forge weld in a propane or natural gas forge. Using my two burner forge from Chili forge I will show that it is possible to forge weld in a gas forge.
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Blacksmithing and related activities can be hazardous. These videos are not a substitute for competent professional instruction. Your safety is your sole responsibility. Always use appropriate safety equipment including eye and ear protection when working in the shop. Follow manufactures safety guidelines for the use of all equipment. In the event something shown in one of these videos seems unsafe, it is up to you to make the appropriate changes to protect yourself.
Thanks I live at 7000 feet elevation and have been struggling with forge welding. Now I know how to tweak my technique.
I built a 3 burner gas forge and I'm finally getting it close, welded 7- 3/8 cables together for a knife. It's so intriguing! Lol!
Cable is higher carbon and welds at a lower heat. It is good experience and really lets you feel the difference between welded or not under the hammer. Plus it makes some pretty cool stuff.
I built my own with 2 T-Rex burners and some large diameter pipe. Properly lined and especially with reflective coating, there's no problem getting a 5-lb billet to welding heat.
I can't believe I never thought of doing a poker that way lol. That would save me a lot of time rather than upsetting 3/8 or 1/2 inch and then splitting it and drawing it back out. Thanks for the tip
Seems like this was the first way of making a poker I ever saw in a book. I do start with something like 3/8" x 1" and draw out the shaft under the power hammer when I want a split style poker end. So I avoid the upsetting.
John, Another informative presentation, I built my own gas forge with aspirated burners, as you point out the floor does degrade so I purchased some refractory bricks split them length wise with a 9 inch angle grinder and lined my floor with those, I topped the brick layer with a thin layer of refractory cement and I renew that when necessary. The bricks were a dollar fifty each and the bag of cement was twenty five dollars in Australian currency. The bricks are soft and I broke a couple slitting them, I have had the forge for around 3 years and floor has never been replaced.
That is a pretty good track record. Do you weld in it often?
Members of the NWBA were forge welding in shop-made gas forges in the early 80's
Us farriers have been using gas forges to weld for a while now! There are many different types of therapeutic shoes that require the use of forge welding. Love that you're putting this out there! It was a nice refresher to go over some forge welding basics as well, now that I'm branching into tool making and other blacksmithing beyond making horseshoes.
always had a problem forge welding. this video is the only one I've seen that really explained the whole process, I will be trying this asap! thank you. I learn so much from you and thank you for all your videos.
Sometimes it just takes a while before everything falls into place
Hi John, my two burner gas forge is lined with refractory bricks, the first hearth I put in it were bricks sliced in half lengthwise and the joints sealed with refractory cement, it has lasted for 6 or so years and the flux does not seem to bother it. I have since built another or more correctly reused the burners from my old one and I located some refractory tiles 1 inch thick 14 inches by 8 inches and I have lined the forge box with them I will send a photo when I work out how to attach a photo.
Regards Stephen
Thanks that helps it gives me more to work with.
Once again good info John, thanks for that, I'm still trying to work out my forge and how to adjust it to weld. Can't wait for the day I can actually forge weld.
Thank you John. Great stuff man.
What a clever idea to use coke as a floor! I get charcoal would work too...
Awesome, thanks for the video
Excellent videos.. Thank you !
Another excellent video, Thank you John. I have been building gas forges for some years and I have found that there is a trade off between high efficiency and high heat.You can do a flux-less forge weld between 2310- 2330 degrees. Getting a K-type thermometer on your forge helps with adjusting the mixture for max efficiency and proper welding heat. Scaling in the forge is the result of un-burned oxygen on the work. any time steel gets above 1800 degrees it is in a scaling heat and as soon as it is taken out of the forge it will start to react with the oxygen in the air.
Great video, and WOW, what amazing scenery!
Thanks Rob
Great video. Thank you John!
I'm currently struggling to get my gas forge to weld temperature, but I'll get there eventually.
Good video john very informative
Excellent video! Informative, concise, and free of any bs. Convinced me to like and subscribe
Welcome aboard!
Thanks for everything its your videos that got me started forging. I appreciate all the hard work!
I'm pleased they have been helpful. You are very welcome.
Black Bear Forge thanks for the quick response! Yeah your making Tong videos without tongs to begin with was very helpful. I'd say I've watched about 15 hours worth of your videos and it's all extremely helpful and inspiring.
This video is a game changer I’ve been afraid to try forge welding in my propane forge out of fear of melting the burner flare. I always thought you wanted your forge white hot but I’m pretty sure I’ve gotten those temperatures before. Thank you so much
Glad the video helps
Never a disappointment. I find myself watching the videos you make even when they are on a subject I'm familiar with and not particularly interested in. Still yet.. I end up enjoying it. Thanks for your time and effort, Man. For real.
Glad you are enjoying them.
I love your content and the way you teach in layman’s terms. Like me a lot of us are just hobbyists with no more training than the amazing videos you pros put out. I really appreciate the effort, the quality and the professionalism that keeps me coming back. You make learning a lot easier.
Glad you're enjoy it
Recently built a blown ribbon burner forge. At 6 lbs press. it will start burning steel if you're not careful. Welding a billet is a snap.
How well does it hold up to flux
@@BlackBearForge Good but I also took the precaution of lining the bottom with bubble alumina from Hitemptools
John, responding to your reply to my last comment, in May of 2016 I replaced the burners in the gas forge to better ones, it was an old farriers forge and did not get the metal hot enough to weld in. Since, I have welded in it a dozen or so times, 4 times before I replaced the floor with bricks as I was over exuberant with the borax and it wrecked the floor quickly
Regards
Steve
Good info
Very good video
Damn, I'm at 7k+ ft in elevation and I've been trying to forge weld. It hasn't been going well. Just gotta work on my temperature adjustments. Time to go outside and practice some more!
You have a beautiful property. Yes I have property envy
I actually learned to forge weld in a Whisper Mama from NC tool. Guy I was training under failed to purchase the right size bar shoes for the horse we were working, so I got a little extra education that day.
Very informative
I never knew gas forges were considered bad for fire welding, I've never used one personally, I use air and coals, and because I use a mix of anthracite and soft charcoal with home made cokes my temps get really really hot, I've melted a few knives when not paying attention lol.
PS, borax and other flux's are not needed with coal fire welding at all, but with gas if you don't want a damaged gas forge you could try using fine silica sand, that might melt it less.
Turn every experience into a learning experience and you will never fail to learn.
I'll ask the first grade blacksmith question: "Why couldn't any substance be used as a consumable floor- brick, gravel, plaster, kitty litter?" Thanks for all the videos.
We the substances you mention aren't truly consumable.. The coke burns up as you work and must be replenished regularly in James Austins forges. I would avoid gravel, some stone fractures quite violently at high heat and send projectiles out of the forge. Seems like I have heard of people putting kitty litter in, but I don't know how it works. Broken up fire brick does work OK, I know someone that does that. It prevents pools of old flux that stick to your work. the flux does seep through to the floor of the forge and will eventually destroy what ever is there, but as long as you're willing to replace it from time to time it would work.
Stainless tray works great, I got an old kick plate from a commercial door.
John, firstly wanted to thank you for all the wonderful advice and tutorials you've provided over the years. You have a very natural way of instructing. So thanks for that. I was hoping you could firstly recall and secondly, tell me what size mig tips you ended up swapping into your burners?
I think .040
I have a propane foundry that I bought online for casting aluminum cans. I've gotten steel red hot but i think with the oxygen it's just hardening everything
Ty
My kind of music for forging!
Thanks for the video, I constructed my own gas forge that has a single reil style burner, was going to add another burner just to get the welding temps. Tossing the idea aroumd of a coal forge just for welding and then the gas forge for working the billet, I really want to get into damascus making, but I do not want to break the bank and kill profits to do it. I know either way its going to cost more, so well see what works.
If your gas forge gets to welding heat its probably the best option. They tend to have a more even heat with less chance of burning the edges.
@@BlackBearForge Thank you for the fast reply, I suppose adding another burner may do the job, I was going to add it anyway to experiment. Thank you again! I had alot of trouble trying to make chain damascus and the fact that the borax eats the ceramic wool hardcore. That was with a single burner..almost got to welding temps so I would think adding another burner will work..hopefully
Hi John Got a question for you if you don't mind. Have you ever been able to forge weld using just fire wood and a hair dryer. I have managed to do a weld or two where 40% was welded without any lines showing after grinding, but in places it I could see them. But I used high carbon steel and heared the welding temps are lower. Can not manage to weld mild steel, tried it a good bit. I use boric acid as borax is not available. Would love to hear your thoughts on it or better still watch you succeed in a video using fire wood only. I think I am not getting up to heat is the problem. Any ideas. Tried charcoal but the two pieces of mild steel did not stick together no matter what I did.
I had that problem, exactly the same as you, I then switched to using anthracite coal. It's super cheap I can get 10kg bags of anthracite her for £2 per bag, that's like $4. Now I put a large 10kg pile of anthracite coal on the forge, and on top of that I build a wigwam style pile of thick sticks and shove tissue inside to start the sticks off. Once the soft wood turns into embers it sets the anthracite off under it. This gives really immense heat off for hours and hours, with only a hairdryer powering it. Now I can forge weld, fold steel, pattern weld and everything.
Propane forge, yes. Natural gas forge, no. I have forced induction burners, so I can forge weld at around 5 or 6 psi. Forging I use only 3 psi of propane.
Thanks for the videos. They are always very informative and valuable. You mentioned once that you might start using charcoal in your coal forge. I would love to see some videos about what you may need to do differently when using charcoal. Can you forge weld with Charcoal? Do you wet the charcoal around the outside of the fire pot as you do with coal? Sorry lots of questions!
I still plan on doing some videos about charcoal. Yes you can forge weld with it, but you need a big supply. I don't use water but do make a fire brick surround for the fire pot so it doesn't need as big a mound.
1.4k likes to 8 dislikes…well done!
Not a blacksmith, but I am a chisel maker. I slide a bolster down the tang (forming it in the process) of chisels and the forge weld them.
it's not ideal for me to heat the entire tang for a long time, so I use a brazing torch after getting the bolster/tang junction as hot as possible quickly. it's not workable for something larger than a junction like that.
I just looked this up out of curiosity as I've got a good stainless two burner propane forge that's good for what it is, but I'd hate to fight it to get forge welding heat on a regular basis.
I'm considering building or buying an induction forge since I typically only weld spots and prefer not to overheat or distort what I'm making. high heat, small spot, short time would be great.
I'm sure that there will be some folks here saying "you'll get a failed joint if you use an oxy/mapp brazing torch", but the bolster is actually hammered constantly on my chisels and to the extent that I've had the weld set, I've never had one come loose in use. if the bolster fails to set, it seems to be all or none - I can tap the bolster with a steel hammer and it will quickly move on the tang and I know it's no bueno.
A little TMI, and very narrow focused. I usually use kawool under whatever is going to get welding flux so that I can just change it from time to time.
(just after I said that, you mentioned the sacrificial floor - if the floor is expensive, it's baffling).
Hi John love your videos. I don't have a gas forge i use coal. I just wanted to comment on your snow level. I seen your tours of te property which i thought were great. If i wasn't in Canada i would take you up buying your coal. anyway back to snow. i would have though you got more than that. i probably have 3 feet. a good 2 anyway. im about 500 miles norht of vancouver BC . keep going i love the shows. i also loke gary huston in england but hes not putting out as much as he did. there are sure some .....lets say different paople out there with forging ideas. i don't know if you ever seen kovko kova4 on utube. hes very good and interesting but i dont speak russian or wherever hes from. take care
Thanks, I'm glad you are enjoying the videos. We should have much more snow. It isn't uncommon for us to have warm sunny days that melt off the clear areas but there should be snow in the shady areas and there isn't. We have probably had about 12" this season and that typically falls in early November. I have only plowed twice and didn't even have to then. I will look for Kovko Kova4
ty ty jim
Very good video, thanks for posting this as I am currently looking into building a gas forge. A question I thought of while watching is could you use fire bricks like the ones for wood stoves as your sacrificial floor? they are relatively cheap and I know our local Tractor Supply Company has them, at least during heating season, or as we call it in Northern Michigan "The other half of the year" Please let me know your thoughts and again thanks.
The brick is a good option if there is room in your forge
I have been considering the 2 burner propane Devil Forge. I respect you're opinion and was wondering if you think they are decent forges and also would you go with the oval or the square model? Thank you for all of you instructional videos, I'm addicted 😊
I really like my Chile Forge. But I have never used the Devil forge brand, so i can't compare.
Thank you ill give it a try if i put a fire brick in to make the chamber smaller will it help or hurt the process
re the introduction footage:- Is that a pv solar panel ? Is it worth the investment Does it provide heat for your shop. Considering investing as the roof of my shop is south facing and was wondering what kind of return it gives. As always like your practical approach
I use woodstove brick 4x9x1” at 6$ each, 1 per weld day
One answer for the floor: Kitty Litter. It's basically clay.
Buy a refractory cement and cast your own firebrick as a sacrificial floor. At 1.5" thick I can get multiple bricks out of a 40 dollar bucket of clean cast and they last longer than the sides of the forge so far.
I'm not shure where the whole myth of the inability to forge weld in a gas forge. I've never welded in coal, only in gas, its more controllable and if you have it adjusted right, cleaner. The only downside is that the flux will eventually eat through your refractory.
I think a lot of the forges built 20 - 30 years ago were simply not engineered well enough and word spread you couldn't weld in one. Of course now more and more people are proving that to be incorrect.
Well, there is several reasons, most people forge weld in to low temperature and I think that this video also is in the lower part of temperature span. If you have the right temperature which usually ends with a few sparks and you don't need to force your pieces together. they will stick like superglue if you even make the pieces touch each other. It also takes a lot of time to heat pieces and it will take a long time before you learn how to adjust your burners, preassure, and probably close off one of your doors and part of the remaining one if you have two. I have also noticed that it depends on the weather, low or high preassure. I know that in US the propane prices are ok but in Sweden if I run a gas forge at welding temperature one day it will cost me about 70-80$ +refractory wear +trip to buy more gas. My coke forge does not cost more than max 20$ to run a whole day without any noticable tear.
With controllable I'll asume that you mean almost no risk for melting your piece because in my coke forge I can heat up one inch of my work to welding temperature, with a gas forge you need to heat up everything that is in the forge. It also needs to fit in the forge which most of the work you do don't, unless you are a knife maker or similar.
However, with all that said if I make a damascus blade use my gas forge for welding :)
Mostly because I don't do this work often enough so it's safer when I lack the skills and there is a lot less ways I can screw it up in a gas forge :D
Johnny, You are correct that I am welding at the low end of welding temperature. I am of the opinion that most people weld at to high a temperature and cause unnecessary damage to their material in doing so, Once you see sparks you are at the high end of welding heat and starting to cause permanent damage to the material being welded. Since I weld a lot of high carbon steels for tools, that reduces the quality of the tool.
Thank you for sharing your economic perspective of the costs you have locally for propane vs coke. it is easy to forget that each part of the world had different resources available at different costs.
@@johnbloom1109 You will only need to se a couple of sparks, if you not see them the surface is not melted and you will get a partial mechanical and partial forge weld.
If you let one or two sparks fly you can tap the surfaces together and it will be a clean forge weld.
If you do it like most gas forge users do, you have to hammer the living daylight out of the piece and hope it will stay together. And I seriously doubt that it in a microscope that will be invisible.
@@johnbloom1109 "Hold up fine" is not very scientific, is it? I'll asume that you also is a propane guy as most are that defend the low temperature forge weld. I meet many people in person, groups and forum that state exact what you do, but after some discussion it usually ends up with saving gas, or my propane forge does not reach that temperature or you can always hammer it together anyway, sometimes they are afraid of missing the sweet spot and burn the metal with a firework of sparks and a few is thought that way.
If your pieces does not stick together when they touch you are not doing a proper forge weld. You can merge them together anyway with force but it requires a lot more work and as I said before I really would like to examine the two under a microscope to see the difference. Maybe I and many master smiths I learned from is wrong but I highly doubt it when they have spent their lifes doing this. I do not say that your welds does not hold up but I am quite sure that you look at the welds after each heat to check if they are good, I'm not, I can feel it instant.
Howdy I truly enjoy your videos thank you. How long do you leave your stock in the gas forge before it reaches welding temp
For this 3/8" bar it takes about 5 minutes the first time
ty ty jim
Why dont we see Blacksmith's with any UV protective glasses? The bright light has always considered me then welding just in general, I don't forge weld. But I'd suspect that UV is a consideration and at least laser safety glasses
That has been mentioned before and a very good question. I’m colorblind and really can’t distinguish the shade color changes. I know I’m at welding heat when looking at the material hurts your eyes like looking at the sun. And I do wear sunglasses now lol
A Stainless tray is ideal to protect the liner from the flux.
John, what size orifice are you using in your forge. Thanks for the videos your a good teacher.
I am not positive, but I think they are .045
Hi there, loved the video (all your videos). What did you use to seal the threads for valves and elbows above the burners ? I did test run for my freshly built forge about 15 to 20 min. Seemed to work fine until I turned it off. The burner started to heat up when there was no airflow through it so I couldnt touch even the valve with bare hans. To my knowlege they use some kind of plastic in those valves.
If you are getting hot gas up the burner tubes try closing the chokes as soon as you shut down. If its coming around the outside pack some kaowool around the burner where it enters the forge.
@@BlackBearForge Thanks, I`ll try that !👍😊
Straighten out the mouth of the forge, where it's bending down, and Weld a pc of 1-1/2" bar stock (or angle iron) , vertically across the top of it to strengthen it and keep it level.
That would probably work. So far it hasn't bugged me enough to worry about it.
I built my forge from a somewhat original design and I have a few techniques that I believe are credible and worth knowing; and I would love to share them with the blacksmithing community. My forge is a 30"x30"x15"(height) plate metal box. the top simply lifts away freely. the inside walls have 2 layers of 2"ceramic blanket, the removable top has one 2" piece and it is a 2" recess on the walls' insulation that keeps the top from ever shifting around. I glued the kaowool in place using sodium silicate that I made from kitty litter and sodium hydroxide and water. (400g, 300g, and 500mL). the ceramic fiber is coated in ITC600 maybe? idr... amazon offers so many and they all work fine... my other forge I used satanite.. can't tell a difference. anyway to the point : as a floor for the forge I made a 3" mixture of sand, sodium silicate, a small amount of portland cement, crushed red lava rocks, some plasticizer used for binding oddball and the key ingredient... which is - ceramic triangle things sold in a blue container at harbor freight and are used for polishing in a rock tumbler. i bought two containers for $15 each, crush the contents of one ( used my 20 ton press and a dye i've had since childhood for crushing stuff in, make sure you have means to contain the shrapnel, but a hammer and towel will work just fine) mix powdered ceramic in with the other ingrdients, and mash it all down as a floor base, then lay the 2nd container's worth of ceramic triangles atop the mixture as if it were a cobble stone road. let your forge get super hot and it will melt some of the stuff under the top layer and make that layer adhere to it keeping those little pieces of ceramic in place from then on. you can pour all the flux you wish on this without damage, you can get it as hot as you want with no damage, you can violently toss a 6lb billet of 4140 on top of it and it will not be damaged. I made the floor to my forge well over a year ago and have used it almost every day for 4-6 hours with no problems. as for a burner, i needle valve propane into a 1" line that comes down through the top of the forge and connects to a homemade flare, and I use a bouncy house blower choking down through decreasing sizes of heater hoses til it connects to a bell reducer at the 1" pipe. I reach forge welding temps in a matter of minutes and only run pressure at 3-4 lbs from tank. all this is built atop a custom metal table allowing the forge floor recess at a lower height than the additional 30"x30" space in front of forge door. It pays to have a good clean flat space to place your work and slide into forge as well as room to lay firebricks or next work pieces or support longer pieces. the back of forge also has a 2" opening i keep plugged with bricks as an option for longer work pieces. the table is on casters and I made the space between legs as tong/hammer racks on front and one side being a chisel rack of magnetic strips. hope you all enjoy the novel. email me and tag important if you wanna see pics of "ONE HOT MOMMA" as I dubbed my forge. homemaintenancebymm@gmail.com
I've heard sand can be used as a welding flux. Have you tried that? If not, I think it would be an interesting experiment/video. If it does work satisfactorily maybe it wouldn't degrade the forge lining? Your videos are always informative and interesting.
Clean silica sand was used for wrought iron manufacturing. I haven't tried it myself
Great video as always. I have a gas forge and am working on a new shop design, but I have a concern about the interior roof. I want my gas forge to be inside, but I don't know what to make the roof out of or what to do to in order to be sure that I don't burn my roof, or even my shop. I live in Florida, so heat is a double concern. I'm considering using 2 garage doors and opening both sides of the shop when it's in use... but again I live in Florida and we have a lot of heat and bugs. I forge as the sun goes down and into the night... exactly when the mosquitoes come out. Right now I pull my forge outside, but that makes it so I can only work when it's good weather... and I can't pull it back in until it's cooled off. Maybe you, or someone reading this, has already solved this issue. Any advice?
My ceiling is about 12 feet, so i feel safe running the forge without any special protection. The ideal of course would be a hood over the forge to vent the heat out side the shop. Suspending a heat shield between the forge and the ceiling would protect the ceiling but wouldn't do much to keep the heat out of the shop.
I'll keep the vent idea in mind. Thanks :)
Get some scandia fire bricks, they cost around $6 a brick and they will handle a good year of forge welding before they need replacing.
I would like to own all of your posting ......any chance to buy those on dvd ???? Just something to think about.
We made our own forge. First liner was a plaster silica sand mix. It didn't hold up well.
And so far we have only run 2 burners.
We relied it with some ceramic tile that is 3/8 of an inch thick using 3k (temp)refractory cement.
Will end up with 4 layers of tile for our insulation.
We intend to use fire brick to line the floor.
Think it will stand the heat?
*relined
I hope the new lining holds up for you
Black Bear Forge I'll keep you posted.
Seeing this video brought to light an issue with the borax that we hadn't heard of as yet. Thanks for the heads up.
Will also use fire brick to take the brunt of the heat blast from the burners instead of directly onto the tiles.
@@shannondeyoung8829 how did the fire brick lining work?
@@TheWoodsmanMilling it is holding up much better. Really needed to use the ceramic wool as the outside tends to get fairly warm after a while.
I recently read that some people use a stainless steel tray at the bottom of the forge, filled with bentonite cat litter. Have you ever tried this? The bentonite is very cheap compared to any alternative I've heard of.
I have heard of the kitty litter idea.
John, you mention in this vid that a ribbon burner is on your wish list for a new gas forge. What do you expect the advantages to be over a two burner aspirated or forced air propane gas forge? My two burner roof mounted blown setup seems to have two hot spots right under the burner heads especially at lower gas pressures (10 psi). Is the goal of the ribbon to spread the flame more evenly? Thanks!! Got to get back to my flux spoon...
The big advantage is a more even heat. But they also produce a gentle flame with less noise and less dragons breath.
I now have coal but I wanted to add a two burner soon.
Thanks
Propane doesn't have the appeal of coal. But it can be way more efficient in terms of production, plus way cleaner
Can you use ceramic or porcelain tiles as a sacrificial material in the bottom of a Forge when welding?
Yes you can
Whats the thickest steel that you can get to forge weld in a single burner gas forge venturi large burner I'm trying to forge weld the main bracket for the post vice where the pins go through I'm struggling to get enough heat and i have fire bans in place for summer so can't use the coal forge charcoal is my only fuel for it any help would be greatly appreciated thank you
That depends a more on the forge itself. Every forge is different. If it can forge weld smaller pieces, it might just be a matter of longer heating time
Excellent video. I built my forge with fire brick and made an internet burner. Tried to weld but I don’t think it’s hot enough. Thinking of building another one with 2 burners. What kind of lining refractory stuff do you recommend?? Thanks again
Enjoy your snow ours is disappearing!!!
The ceramic wool is certainly the best insulating of the refractory materials, but it is also the easiest to damage and posses the greatest health risk. The ceramic boards are close, but are still easy to damage and when damaged can still put fibers into the air. I am hoping to build with a castable refractory and just hope i can make a burner that will bring it to welding heat. I am a bit tired of how fragile the higher tech refractories are.
I use disposable N95 respirators for most purposes as you can get a box of one hundred for well under $50 (US) online. I don't think I'd trust them for actually cutting and installing ceramic wool, but should be adequate for hobbyists operating a kaowool forge. The drawback is they need to be professionally fit-tested and you have to be painfully clean-shaven, or they're not much better than a cloth mask, and they won't stand up to a full day of heavy industrial use. (They're designed for health care purposes.) They also stay on in situations where HEPA respirators tend to get knocked off, and they're the same size as a cloth mask so you can keep a few in your glove compartment or tool box, or even your back pocket.
Ceramic wool, covered with a refractory like mizzou and then a coat of itc 100 works very well. The higher the alumina content a refractory has the more resistant it is to flux. I also add a stainless shelf with a coat of mizzou on it when i weld. It keeps the flux off of the floor and is easy to replace/reline with refractory when it gets too bad
Thanks for the information I appreciate it very much.
I have a NC tool whisper momma with the two ports, and I have tried welding with it twice, but it is still difficult. It started to weld, but it is not hot enough, I let the metal which is about 1/4 inch rod stock, sit in the forge on 14 psi for about 4 minutes. Is that too short of time?
It sure wouldn't hurt to leave it longer. Learning what it takes in a particular forge is half the battle.
Do you think its still possible to re-weld a piece once you've cooled it down? I have been making san mai from mild steel and files and sometimes i get hairlines when i grind the edges of the billet, i can see the water vapour bubbling up. Usually i toss them and start all over...
Yes, absolutely
I love my ribbon burner forge. I did buy the ribbon burner from Pine Ridge-Charlie, and ALL the people working there are a true class act. Highly recommend them. Yes, it is worth the cost. ***You MUST email them to figure out what ribbon burner size you need. They have their burners “graded” by volume on their site-that is for kiln use, not forge use.
The thing I do not like about ribbon burner forges-you cannot localize the heat well. Put another way, the entire piece is going to get heated, very evenly, and this makes it difficult to make things like tongs, etc. it’s a waste of heat for some things. But if you need to heat large pieces or heat evenly, it is more efficient. Ribbon burners get crazy hot. I turned mine down as low as I thought was safe and closed off all but a 4x4 inch opening after lighting. 30 min later the entire interior was white hot.
Do you think it's feasible to build a forge with a highly insulative material such as kaowool on the top and sides, etc, and a harder and more durable material such as refractory cement on the bottom, or if the different rates of heat loss would cause problems? I suspect it won't be, as I can make the bottom as thick as I want, but my actual forging experience is under a dozen hours. Also, does refractory cement hold up to high temperatures as well as other materials? The cheap stuff at my local box store is only rated for 2200 degrees Fahrenheit.
Absolutely, most forges are built that way. Or at least they cover a kaowool bottom with hard refractory. 2200 is probably OK, but I would buy from someone that deals with forges or ceramic kilns to be sure.
John, I have a Chileforge Habanero gas forge, and I live near Calhan, Colorado at 6600+ feet. What size of MIG tip did Chileforge send you? Perhaps I can buy the tips at my local Big R or Lowes. Thank you.
I think they were either .040 or .045
Why does it matter if it's gas or coal. Or altitude and air pressure? I would think as long as material your welding is at the right temp it will weld...not being critical I genuinely want to learn. I'm an old machinist who has only forge formed a couple things with hammer and oxy acetylene. But want to start black smoothing as hobby
If its up to temperature you are correct. But gas burners don't preform as well at higher altitudes and struggle to reach higher temperature.
Do you like cole forges better or gas forges? I personally like cole better and way cheaper to run
I like working out of coal. But I get more work done when I work out of propane. ruclips.net/video/GUACTUWMvTA/видео.html
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What is your gas forge insulated with? And how often do you need to re-insulate it? what do you use?
Kawool with a hard coating. I haven’t relined it in the 18 months or so since I bought it.
@@BlackBearForge When you do reline it please make a video of that. I think it would help a lot of use who are interested in the craft. Knowing how to do this the correct way is a must.
What kind of coal do you use? I cant get anthrocite here in any real quantity. But bitaminous is readily available here in ky.
Bituminous with low sulfur high BTU. Some places will have metallurgical or smithing coal
How do you know that it's not just fused?
My welds come apart with a hammer and chisel.
Fusing and welding would be much he same thing. Just keep refining the weld to increase strength of the weld. Getting it to stick lightly then calling it done will almost always lead to failure.
@@BlackBearForge
Thank you.
My welds today were better than yesterday's welds...its actually tearing steel instead of popping apart.
Propane forge.
Apparently I have the heat capabilities, so it's a matter if technique now.
Thanks so much for your tutelage, and for the reply.
So how far ahead of welding do you flux?
Flux, bring it to heat and weld. No need to flux before you're ready to make the weld
I sure hope that snow melts in a couple weeks.
Weeks? it will mostly be gone tomorrow. Been in the 50s since the day it snowed.
Are you in wisco?
No, I am in Colorado
I dont think it is safe to burn paper in a gas fire place....
LOL that was a reply to an ad that covered your video.. lol
Thanks, I was a bit confused
The more I watch gas vs coal the more I convinced coal is better. Why? With coal you can do anything you want with gas you can’t.
Not exactly true in either case
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Hi John Got a question for you if you don't mind. Have you ever been able to forge weld using just fire wood and a hair dryer. I have managed to do a weld or two where 40% was welded without any lines showing after grinding, but in places it I could see them. But I used high carbon steel and heared the welding temps are lower. Can not manage to weld mild steel, tried it a good bit. I use boric acid as borax is not available. Would love to hear your thoughts on it or better still watch you succeed in a video using fire wood only. I think I am not getting up to heat is the problem. Any ideas. Tried charcoal but the two pieces of mild steel did not stick together no matter what I did.
There are many variable in forge welding. Good clean, deep fire is vital as is proper air supply. I suspect that with a hair drier and fire wood, you just can't get a hot enough fire with the proper reducing atmosphere to weld reliably. Turning your wood into charcoal before trying to weld would help increase heat and make a cleaner fire. But I still doub't the hair drier puts out a sufficient air supply.
Thanks that is a good place to start. Will need to get a different air supply now that the hair dryer is making funny sounds anyways.
Try the bouncy house blowers if you are on a budget. They need a gate or damper because they can put out to much air. But they are affordable
Thanks John. Ordering to India is at times difficult and I don't think they do them where I live. That is why I went for the hair dryer. Do you think two is worth trying. Would give me more air right. Just to say your videos are really great and thanks for making them.
David.