Paper Mario Remake is Causing Outrage !!
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- In today's video, we discuss Paper Mario : The Thousand Year Door and discuss why Paper Mario TTYD on the Switch is causing outrage. Paper Mario Remake Drama!
#papermarioswitch #papermario #switch
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I strongly appreciate your centralist view on everything. I'm at the point where I'm angry at BOTH the left and right sides for various reasons (both sides have been acting horrendous lately for various different reasons. Both sides have gotten very extreme with certain things to the point where I don't trust any of them).
I might getting for the new Paper Mario game like over my birthday before Winter starts?
The just try to make it more kid friendly.
I’m offended that our culture has become offended.
I’m offended that you’re offended that our culture has become offended
@@ToonyTails Im offended that your offended that he's offended that our culture has become offended
@@jarehelt I’m offended that you’re offended that I’m offended that they’re offended that our culture has become offended
I'm offended by being offended at you all being offended about others being offended about something that isn't even offending.
"I think not being racist is the new racism." - Jeff Winger, Community
Goomba flirting = Literally Hitler
Knobbing a bear = Stunning and brave
One game: Rated E for Everyone
Other Game: 18+
@@thepokekid01 OK, furry.
@thepokekid01 17+. M rating is for 17 year olds.
Unless you're speaking from the PEGI or elsewhere perspective, then that's different.
I didnt get the bear part where did that happen?
@@HS-cf8lz Baldurs Gate 3.
God help us if Nintendo ever releases Mother 3 outside of Japan.
This is exactly why they dont wanna release mother 3 in America.
@@maximumforce8275 I don't think Nintendo would not release a game because of a bunch of clickbaiters and some people shouting at each other online
Paper Mario, Scissor Mario, Rock Mario... To each their own.
I think this is why people loved Jack Horner so much in Puss in Boots 2.
The guy was allowed to be as fucking evil as it gets and it was a BLAST.
"You're not a shoot a puppy, are you Jack?"
"Yeah, in the face. Why?"
Yeah sexuality and gender identity is a bit complicated in Japan. I speak fluent Japanese and I lived in Japan for a long time, so I can probably provide a little bit of insight here.
To begin with, the Japanese language doesn't use gender pronouns quite as much as we do in English. They exist but people don't often say "Ms. Yamada is my friend. She is over there." You would refer to the person by name, or omit the subject of the sentence altogether if the context is already understood. It would be 山田さんは友達です。あそこにいます (Yamada-san is [my] friend. Over there.) in normal Japanese. Note that -san is a gender-neutral honorific.
Gendered pronouns do exist and are used, but definitely not as much as in English. So, many people, when they don't know how to identify your gender, will simply not use any gendered language at all and always refer to you by name. I experienced this a lot personally in Japan as a trans woman. This is a very important factoid that we'll get into later.
Also, the concept of crossdressing is a lot more common at least among entertainers and has been for centuries, so it's a bit more acceptable in media, which is part of why it tends to come up a lot in anime and video games, even those targeted at children. For example, traditionally, only men were allowed to perform on stage plays (Noh), despite the stories depicted usually having a romantic element in them. There's also Harajuku fashion, visual kei, and other fashion styles where people who identify as male might be wearing what would normally be seen as feminine attire.
It should be noted though that crossdressing as a normal person who isn't an entertainer, fashionista, or doing it for some kind of show or event is often seen as a bit of a taboo. It's assumed that if you're crossdressing just as a normal part of your lifestyle that you're gay, which is also itself seen as a taboo (though that has been slowly changing over the generations thanks to LGBT+ movements).
Particularly effeminate or pretty boys are often encouraged to crossdress at least for events (including, but not limited to, otokonoko). For example, at least a few all-boys schools actually have annual beauty pageants or contests, where some male students are dolled up with pretty dresses, wigs and makeup.
People wanting to be thought of as the opposite gender has also been a thing for a long time, but it feels different from what the rest of the world would consider "transgender." In many cases it's seen as a phase or a cute or funny thing that people do without taking it too seriously. Like an athletic girl might want be referred to as handsome instead of pretty, and otokonoko might want to be referred to as a sister by his siblings, despite not completely wanting to be thought of as female.
You can refer to a cute femboy as "-chan" and it isn't necessarily gendered, but you're acknowledging their cuteness. The -chan honorific is often used for children or cute things, including pets and even inanimate objects, and often in context is used for girls, so much that many people who aren't fluent in the language but watch a lot of anime think it's used exclusively for girls.
All of that becomes at least slightly easier to understand and maybe only makes sense because of how the language works. So somebody could be crossdressing and you might not be sure what gender they identify as, but you can get away with it naturally in Japanese because of not having a need to use gendered language at all.
From my own experience, it feels like the concepts of gender identity and transgender-specific ideas are still not very well understood or even considered in Japan. So it's still very complicated, and often very difficult to faithfully translate into English or other languages yet.
Thank you for this comment.
The problem is Americans and western Europeans looking at everything through their own, very narrow, cultural lens. In stories like this, these people can't seem fathom that there are different cultures on Earth where people have different values and worldviews, shaped by thousands of years of unique cultural evolution.
It gets even worse when those same Americans and Europeans take a moral stance based on their cultural lens and want to shame other peoples for being different. I've started to really take notice of the cultural imperialistic and colonialist attitudes of many of the people who have a unearned and disproportionate influence over western pop culture. It just seems like a new, much more insidious, form of racism to me that is hidden behind the guise of righteousness.
You have the best take on this whole "Vivian scandal". But yeah crossdressing years ago was done in shows and club, but they were not considered "trans". The term Gender has changed over the years as well. But I digress.
Yeah most of the people arguing whether or not vivian is trans is doing it from a strictly western lens. Even though the japanese lens is a bit different
One piece has 2 examples of this which kinda fits your comment.
Where Kiku admits to being a dude, but wants to be seen as a girl
And where Yamada calls herself a dude cause she literally wants to be Oden. Which is a quite a bit different
When this game is not about trans identity at all, so why give out this unnecessary complicated drama and just make it like it was?
Basically the interpretation of her being trans is completely valid and always has been. Whether she’s actually just a cross dresser upset that he was called a “man” or a trans woman, both make sense.
I often agree inserting western politics into something can be bad, but this doesn’t seem like that at all. It’s just case of them removing censorship they had placed on the original game by translating it to something that the original game’s translation didn’t do.
Let bad guys be bad guys again.
😊😊😊😊agreed well said
So real 🐢🐢🐢
Hey Yo! Bad times don't last, but bad guys do...Chico
Especially if they’re women shit is so annoying now that every villain especially women need to be sympathetic or have a character arc
It's not just that but hiding or censoring the reality or truth is bad and only misguide people.
I miss when a game was a game, and it was picked apart for being a bad game or praised for being a great one. Now we dissect everything to appeal to a social agenda that makes sure no one is offended….its a game let it be a game
I agree i want to play a game to have fun not to join a specific group because like most people i don't care and i don't want to, let a game be just a game
There are still very much games like that. Lethal Company and Mario Wonder immediately come to mind. Sometimes game creators want their games to have deeper meanings and they're entirely in the right to do so. Baldur's Gate 3 and Undertale are very story based games with LGBT relationships in them and they're regarded as some of the best games of all time. You can find games that don't have a deeper meaning but you can't command that game devs only make games like that.
It's so overdone, tiresome and unproductive.
It all started when they started calling Resident Evil 5 racist for having African zombies in Africa.
At this point we've had close to twenty years of this drivel.
Lmfao removing "tubby" is crazy 😭 thats just a childish insult who tf they think theyre gonna offend. What pointless censorship. Tbh im more concerned if the localization is closer to the Japanese than anything
I feel like the Park Place article has a bit of a contradiction. If Vivian is a femboy or okotonoko, and was fully accepting of her male identity, then why would she refer to the trio as sisters and then be hurt by Beldam referring to her as a man?
That’s the problem, what Short Fat Otaku uses as the term O Toko No Ko (おとこのこ) which is just Japanese for Boy, he instead uses Otokonoko (男の娘) aka male daughter, Male Girl and whatnot, which instead stands for men who have a culturally feminine gender expression. The 2 terms are wildly different and just outright wrong in this context. Short Fat Otaku and ilk of their kind will basically self insert any male character who crossdresses and also identifies as female (or doesn’t go by a gender in one case) as basically Otokonoko (男の娘) regardless of how wrong they actually are
Yeah, that's why Vivian is trans and not a femboy, which would have been fine, I think it's more of 2000s Nintendo not knowing the difference between the two.
@@DevaAshera Yeah, it's definitely a Japanese company not understanding Japanese culture, not 2024 western people misunderstanding Japanese culture.
@@thesonofdormammu5475 the Japanese company has a much more direct hand in localization, so, yes they definitely intended her to be trans.
I feel like its fine to think that she is trans or think that he is a femboy... but we should also understand that there's some ambiguity in the terms and not try and force other people to accept a certain narrative. If nintendo wants to make things more clear they can (I doubt they will tho), but I see both interpretations as valid.
It's never gonna end is it
As long as they are alive , don't expect any form of stopping sadly
They are narcissistic sociopaths who will never learn,
even after 2016 where Ghostbusters: Answer the Call was released.
@@KenMasters. it's even worse than you can imagine with the evil people pushing this stuff
👃
The biggest Mario debate:
Marry-oh or Mar-i-oh?
The former us French, the latter is Italian.
Mar io im not a sociopath
Mary-yo
Mar ee oh
Super Smash Bros Melee announcer; MARIOOOOOOO
I'm not going to rage over a few sentences. But glad some are
Typical "ohhh I love seeing da conservatives angy!1!! response
Don't y'all got any new material? 😮💨
I don't think we're supposed to sympathize with the villains anyway LOL and besides that I think that porting them over one-for-one yeah the dialogue is going to have some parts that are not for everyone but I think that it's important to gain preservation. When it comes to saving people's feelings over preserving a game the way it was I choose the latter
People just need to cry me a river and get over it if Bowser wants to fat shame of cartoon character go ahead
I know! And he’s Bowser. He seems like a character that wouldn’t care about offending others lol
Demolition Man was onto something.
Vivian's whole thing is actually rather confusing. Tattle and Catch Cards use Otokonoko, but Vivian, herself, says she's a girl..so I feel more like this is a case of 2000s Era Japan being confused and thinking of them as the same thing. Even now Gender Identity is far from well understood in Japan. As such, I feel like this, while not authentic to the OG version, is more of a case of it being done through a modern understanding. I do wish they kept the Goomba catcalling and transphobic comments from the other Shadow Sirens. I feel they would have been more impactful and character building
Doesn’t goombella refer to Vivian as a woman by the end too though. And at the end of the day Vivian refers to herself as a woman so that’s who she is regardless how other characters see her
"Tattle and Catch Cards use Otokonoko"
Yeah but otonoko in non-slang means... boy, right? With crossdresser being a non-that-common slang.
Isn't it logical that people not accepting transition from a trans girl would call them... boy?
HIMself. Get over it.
@@laplongejunior No. Quit trying to force a western lens onto OTHER CULTURES.
Is Vivian a Trans Woman or A Biological Woman?
Yes
her gender identity is moreso a throw away line anyways her character isn't the Trans girl
Problem with the framing of this discussion. Other localization of the original version had vastly different ways of interpreting Vivian. The Spanish version said that "Vivian is a boy that looks like a girl" (Which is NOT the same as cross dressing.) German version doesn't say anything about it but refers to Vivian with feminine pronouns just like the original English version.
However
The original Italian version goes all out. It's description read as: "Ex membro del Trisdombra. Originariamente era un uomo, ma ora è donna ed è fiera di esserlo." Which translates to ... sit yourself down for this one ... "An ex-member of the Shadow Trio. She used to be a man, but now she's a woman and proud of it!"
"Nahhhh nah bro thats not trans. Cuz you see in japan yabadabado something something (basically they are trying to say people there like to be reffered as female, dress female etc but aren't female.) TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM BEING TRANS!!!!!"
@@maximumforce8275 Nice strawman argument. Unfortunately...
The word Otonokono usually is slang for femboy. This was used in the original scripts. In the Japanese version of the Switch remake, Vivian calls himself "a boy with a girl's heart".
Also, on top of that, it is a known fact that Nintendo Treehouse messes with translations a lot.
I love it when your "side" actively says things like "OH STOP COMPLAINING WAH WAH VIVIAN IS TRANS GET OVER IT" but when people actually do their research all of a sudden you people get all defensive and screechy. Well, I guess shills gonna shill.
@TheDarkSack nice speech. Unfortunately for you it's hypocritical and sounds like projecting.
@@TheMenaceHimself2006 It's cultural interpretation and localization teams. Vivian literally says, "I am their sister, not their brother." In Japanese, that could have a billion different implications, but that doesn't matter. In English, being male and identifying as a girl makes you trans. This was Nintendo's English localization team confirming it. It doesn't matter what anything in Japanese means, Nintendo is TELLING us she's trans and you are deaf af.
@@maximumforce8275But he has a point tho
I guess that's the difference between remake and remaster. Changes are expected. Both, however, should be playable and not lost to time
I miss the cat calling Goombas X(. The new phrase is lame.
The new Vivian lines didn't upset me.
Peach didn't even mention that taking off her clothes while invisible is indecent.
U know, in the original version of Final Fantasy 7, the character Aerith’s name was mis-translated to Aeris, and that’s the game I played. Some players prefer “Aerith,” because it was as otiginally intended, but I associate “Aeris” as the better game. Whatever the reason, we can have differences of opinion on it and neither of us are wrong. The game creators can change and update stuff, and we can decide if we like it or not. Anyone trying to cause outrage about stuff like this doesn’t have their priorities straight, and they want to profit from easily influenced suckers. Don’t be a sucker.
Th/S are extremely close like L/R in japanese. Like most fansubs used the Gundam Seed character Asuran, but when it was dubbed it became Athrun. Mega Man has Dr.Right/Light, and so forth. NA heard Aeris, not Aerith and went with that transliteration.
Kotoku being misleading/lying!? Who would've guessed lmao
Quoting Ben Affleck in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, " These are fictional characters, fictional characters. Am I getting through to you at all?"
I love this reference and comment!
You say that, but if the same people who demand trans representation in kids games also lose their minds if characters who aren't straight and white are gender / race swapped.
Agreed so why have to change it? Were people offended back then by this?
The ending of this video would have been perfect to segue into a "Ground News" ad read.
Haha I'm subscribed to Ground News as it happens lol I used the link from TLDR News
Y'know, I really appreciate your stance here. You're sensible, as unbiased as you can be, and factual and proper about how to try and make an argument, by checking as many sources as possible, and ultimately coming to a conclusion that isn't on either dumb side of the spectrum, but a nore encompassing point a view 😌
Great explanation on this controversy, really shows both sides of the argument. I think Vivian is a great character no matter how you see it. Im just happy nintendo is embracing this depiction of the character because i genuinely thiught they were going to censor her again to stay away from controversy. But most people dont really care and just want a good game.
Vivian was never trans. He is a guy with a feminine appearance. But instead made it so he 'identifies' as a girl. Woke ideology twisting the meaning of something once more and ruining a game again as a result. Nah, I'm not gonna support this bs. The woke can go f*** themselves.
Honestly I don't see why Vivian's original self was so controversial...I mean how hard is it to understand he just wanted his sisters to accept him and so he wore girl's clothes to fit in!?
My problem is they aren’t trans in the original but a cross dresser which is a big difference. The localizer felt they needed to force it to be something because inclusivity. That is what gets annoying and then the people whining that people point this out or they feel the need to say things like we got the W is irritating. If you like that take on the character fine but people phrasing that way really shows the agenda pushing.
@@aquariumlad23 Most comments under this post seem to have been removed. RUclips's censorship bots hard at work sadly.
Crossdressors arnet trans.
Honestly I'm getting sick of the gaming industry "sanitizing" everything. Villains can't be villains, heroes can't be morally gray, everything has to be politically correct lest we "offend" somebody. And politics and "muh representation" keep rearing their ugly head's. It's all so tiring.
Yes, its true that "otokonoko" (男の娘, literally "male daughter") is slang for what is basically a femboy (as my dictionary calls it, "(slang) young man who has a feminine aesthetic").
But equally, and more importantly, is it true that in standard, non-slang Japanese, "otokonoko" (男の子, literally "male child") just means "boy".
And the final nail in the coffin is that its written in katakana (オトコのコ), and put up against "onnanoko" (オンナのコ) meaning "girl" without any similar ambiguity in meaning (for reference, tomboy is either お転婆, "otenba", or お侠, "okyan").
So, given the lack of kanji supporting it, and the contrasting "onnanoko", translating "otokonoko" here as "femboy" is a wild stretch. Thats the issue with halfassing your understanding of Japanese to only encompassing rōmaji. Yes, it could be a pun, as those are sometimes written in kana for their ambiguity, but would have to be seen in context of the rest or the text to be more than an allusion to punnery.
TL;DR: Chuds with lacking understanding of the language mistranslate text to support their narrative.
You're not as centrist as you like to make out.
So disappointed in Lady Decade with this video. Boosting this comment.
The middle ground fallacy is strong with this video. I'm not fluent in Japanese but I can read hiragana and katakana easily and only know some kanji, and I know that they enjoy puns in Japan.
I agree people should always look at sources from both sides to get the real story but I disagree that it should be to get some centrist view on it. I am honestly so tired of the both siders. You don't have to be a centrist to stop division you just have to be civil.
7:28 ok they didn't NEED to do all that
Anytime i hear the name Vyvyan. I imagine RIK screaming it.
Hehe yes lol 😂
Lentil soup
WHO'S BILL
@@LadyDecade But it's June the twelfth 😂
It's a Mario game so some of these bricks ACTUALLY explode.
@@AlmightyCRJ yeah but...Have we got a video ?
Honestly, whenever anything in this house explodes it’s always “Blame Vyvyan!”
I don't understand why English translators can't just stick to the original source.
Because they think they can do it better than the creators. It's all an act of arrogance.
Most do, but we only hear about the bad ones who change things. Translation and localization is an invisible, thankless job. When they do it right, you don't notice.
I mean, they stuck to the original Vivian part but people are still mad about that lol
@@TiredOx7536 Vivian wasn't originally trans.
@@megaman37456 she is in the Japanese version
See thats the problem. THEY'RE VILLAINS!!! Villains arent supposed to have decency!!! That's what makes them VILLAINS, THEY DO WHAT WANT!
Liberals should be held accountable for the mess they made.
Kotoku can't go out of business soon enough.
Politics has no business being injected into gaming.
Trans people in games isn’t political
@@MoonshineH it is if there's no other reason for it than checking off a box.
@Crimefighter That's an unfalsifiable interpretation of intent. The underlying logical implication is that you personally don't believe they belong there.
Art has always been allowed to be political. If you believe games can be art, you must acknowledge a game can be allowed to have real-world, political themes.
@@Crimefighter How do you know why she’s in the game?
I'm offended because it's my choice, my personality.
Delusional
If I had to choose, I’d probably restore the catcalling scene (it feels good to beat up misogynistic scumbags, it shows Gombella has a spine), but given the previously mentioned “want to be female” line I’d say that going either interpretation on her character was a good choice. As for the Bowser scenes, letting him be an asshole would be fine in my eyes (and could teach children that that behaviour is as immature as that version of Bowser). Luckily, I have access to both versions (was born early enough in Gen Z to own a Wii that I could just download a copy onto after paying Nintendo for a copy of the remake so they actually get the money), so I get to experience both versions.
I would love to know your fact checking methods or tools or even a course
You appear to be mistaken, I know japanese, and the phrase Otoko no Ko does not actually mean femboy, it depends which kanji is being used when saying the "Ko" part, because it itself can also mean boy, you see Otoko no Ko can be written as 男の子 or 男の娘, where "Ko" can be written as either 子 or 娘, this makes all the difference, since 男の子 just means boy, like 女の子 means girl, in the game of Paper Mario, they actually wrote in Katakana and not in kanji, and it reads オトコのコ, which means that they left it intentionally ambiguous so it can men boy or crossdresser, it was meant to be ambiguous and open to interpretation, playing on the japanese past of men looking like females to play females parts used in many kabuki plays since real females could become pregnant and unable to perform, so this is rooted in some history and often played for laugh, the old "it's a trap" joke, that doesn't fly so well in the west. Nintendo likely removed it back in the day, since this type of interpretation didn't translate well in 2004, but nowadays, it makes more sense, it appears they have since doubled down and confirmed that she is transgender as it was even changed in the japanese text to be more definitive (though if you ask me, it was clearly leaning to the transgender route even in the original), but regardless, the tone was never clearly a femboy that has been misinterpreted for transgender, it was always up for your own interpretation, as it was not to be taken seriously.
Basically, people like Short Fat Otaku, Dimitri Monroe and others of their ilk will try their darnedest to change a character like Vivian or Bridget into a crossdressing boy, even when the lore never states as much.
Out of curiosity, what changed between the Japanese Gamecube and Switch versions of the dialogue?
@ShuajoX 20 years is a long time and maybe the writers wanted to make sure there is little to no confusion.
@@leedlebob2667 Yes, they wanted to be sure of that, so in the JP Switch version, they made it more explicit than before
I play games to get away from the World and Social issues.
None of this seems outrage worthy, even if it's annoying that they made dialog changes and that bad actors are using the game as a battleground.
Thanks Lady Decade.
PMTYD is one of my favourite games. I loved it back then, and I love the remake still. Vivian is a great character, and I remember the intrigue when I learned about the Japanese origins of the character. I think the character was, and is still handled pretty well. This game remains on my top 10, even twenty years after.
Kotaku intentionally mislead its audience bending way left and calling the world transphobes? Say it ain’t so! 😂
Like they’ve done for years nothing new here.
Have you ever thought that maybe you just don't know what it's like to see things from a trans perspective?
@@pajaroboboew
when did they call the world transphobes
@@pajarobobodo you?
Saw this coming everywhere I'm just glad they make it vague enough so neither person is right;
Is Vivian A Trans Woman or a Biological Women?
Yes
yet people will still try to say she is trans not a biological woman or a biological woman not trans
my questions to those types of people who argue one side is more right:
aren't Trans woman supposed to be accepted as any other woman?
isn't that the goal of activists everywhere
What's Wrong with Vivian being trans?
she's a fictional character that doesn't exist
what's wrong with vivian being a biological Woman?
Again she's a fictional character that doesn't exist
Really cringe they couldn't just leave the game exactly like the original, even if it's minor details
Beldam detected
if you want the game to be exactly like the original
...why not just play the original?
This seems to assume that both the left and the right are monoliths and every one must lean one way or another. Kotaku is first and foremost a click bait site.
Kotaku is overwhelmingly left wing...
Kotaku is overwhelmingly liberal. Not left wing.
Tbh it does seem like rage bait for right wingers. And it worked.
Does anyone even like Kotaku? I think most people will view them as left-wing but there's almost no space I've seen myself where people actually seem to like the site.
I’d prefer that Vivian just stay a female to not cause any controversy at all.
Or people could not freak out over nothing.
But then people would complain about the localizers thinking they're better than the original writers. And even when they stick to the source more closely, they're still getting flack lol.
Yeah same, plus it's the Vivian that I grew up with along with the original English translation of the thousand year door. 🤷
@MoonshineH or people that r woke or lgbt touch gaming with their tainted corrupted political ideology it just ruins games in minor or major ways if gaming offends those people too bad that's how it's always been since gaming first started
the weak way of the coward
Discrimiating against other human beings is NOT a political opinion.
Always took it that Vivians sisters took her cuteness/beauty as opposed to their ugliness and projected that by calling Vivian a boy.
Same! People want to act like insecure people wouldn't resort to such insults, like dude, did you ever set foot in a school, ever? Vivian is still my favorite PM character though, I just wish they didn't try promote her arc as some trans revenge thing when it's just a person finally getting even with her abusers.
Beldam Speech Bubble.
You didn't really show what was changed...we all know the vivi story and that they are keeping the original, people like to cry over nothing
Did you not see the beginning of her video where the Goomba's and even Bowser's dialog were completely changed to make them "less" villiany?
@@Nick-up5wvNot necessarily. Their dialogue was changed to be less blatantly transphobic and playing bigotry for laughs. Remember, this is a Paper Mario game, not Shenmue. So even the villains need to be likable and fun. Bigotry crosses a line from “lovably evil” to just plain “hateable”.
@@northwindkeythe goombas and bowser had transphobic dialog??? I just saw tubby and the misogyny
I think Vivian should have been left ambiguous so that she/he could mean different things to people. Not everything has to be definite. Language has always been imprecise.
What is going on with people taking self-awareness too far, to where it now becomes a tool to censor certain elements of games? Lessons are being traded out for people's soft hearts. Games, from major corps, haven't seen this from Indie companies yet, are becoming more and more unbearable.
Remota and cross dressers need representation too! Just let the original lore and dialogue be in games. Not everything will be inclusive! Let the game be a product of its era, and just enjoy it.
Great article, well presented, and insightful. Have a great day young lady.
Yeah Nintendo swooped in and made these small dialogues "cleaner" for some reason. From what I've seen, the only good choice was confirming Vivian to be trans.
And they didn't make her trans just for the sake of slapping the label onto her. The themes of her story resonate with a lot of trans people and their experiences. Vivian is great representation in that way, and good representation is important.
And as you mentioned, even in the japanese version, Vivian identifies as a woman. Sure, everyone calls her a man, but she refers herself as a woman. And what is a trans woman, if not someone who is assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman ?
As for the description of "femboy", you gotta remember the context in which this game was made. At the time, there were a lot more misunderstandings and prejudices about trans people, even more than there are today.
Which could explain why they called Vivian a femboy, saying she's not actually a woman because of prejudices towards trans people that were even more common at the time.
But to be fair, I do agree that even if it's nice that they confirmed Vivian to be trans, they kinda went about it the wrong way. Why not let Beldam tell Vivian something around the lines of "aren't you a man ?", like she did in the original japanese release ?
It ties into the point you made at the beginning. Let the evil characters be evil and be transphobic, fat-shaming, cat-calling and all that. They're supposed to be evil, for god's sake ! Nintendo really insists on the "family-friendly" aspect of their games to an insane degree.
I'm not paying for my games to be censored. I was going to buy this game Day 1 as I never played the original. But idk... I doubt most people pay attention to the nuances being changed in games. Most are just going to buy it for their kids because they see it's a Mario game. I'm sure it will still sell well, and Nintendo will be happy with the outcome regardless.
All these incidents make me wish that I had learned Japanese and that I could just buy Japanese editions of the consoles and games as a way to stop dealing with trashy colonializing Americans censoring Asian countries works of art...
It's not that difficult to give a 1 for 1 interpretation. Even if we don't understand the Japanese nuances in language at least it will pique our interest and we might learn something from it and grow our knowledge. Hashing up lame self absorbed interpretations from all these people who think silencing an original voice and replacing it with their own as a good thing, are probably proud of the level of energy vampirism they emit on a daily basis. I can't be bothered.
I could be uncultured but i just wanna play video games 🎮
You're pure culture, actually
@Polengue i guess so. I personally have never play Paper Mario TTYD (but I'm excited to play it in a couple of days when I get it) I wanted to go into the game completely blind but it's kinds hard to when I see stuff like "Mario's gone woke" or I see Mario with an LGBTQ+ flag. I didn't really know anything about Vivian, but I guess I have now😆. I really could care less if Vivian is trans or not, because I feel like people shouldn't judge a character on what they are but how they act as a character. Hope this is not too crazy or I sound genderist.
@@Sping20You are a true gamer respect
There are literally no problems with any of these changes.
😒
Wrong
Delusional
Sped
Kotaku is correct; Vivian is trans in the original game. Vivian consistently affirms that she is a woman/sister/etc. in the original Japanese. Only other characters call Vivian a man, not Vivian herself. The fact writers 20 years ago didn't have the same sensitivity to trans issues they do today doesn't make the character less trans. The only thing they changed in the new release was they toned down the other characters transphobic comments. I can understand why they did this for the heroes but I think they could have kept her sister's transphobia, she is supposed to be a villain. Same thing with the other mean dialogue they toned down, I think they should have kept it.
catering to the offended crowd is slowly gonna suck the fun out of literally everything
Yup.
They not only censored it, they changed Vivian from being a femboy dressing like a girl trying to win the acceptance of his sisters, but a transgender, which was NEVER in the original Japanese version, but only in the Italian translation. The English version sold in America, The UK, and Australia and New Zealand, Vivian was a girl, in Japan, French and Spanish the character was just a cross dressing male...and THAT is the number 1 reason I got a refund and bought SpongeBob Cosmic Shake instead. And for the people who love strong women, they censored a strong woman standing up for herself! Those same people hated Metroid Dread for being too hard when you play as a strong woman!
You refunded because of these small things? Like I get it better to keep to the source material but is it really game ruining? Does this small drama really affect your view on the game that much that you can’t even touch it? Seems like an overreaction lol.
you refunded the game over something like this?? jesus bro get a grip
I didn't like an element of this rpg so I refunded it and got a platforming game instead
🤔
Makes perfect sense
@@romancatholicgameing a very small element too. “GOOMBELLA DOESNT GET HIT ON ANYMORE AND THEY CHANGED A MINOR THING ABOUT A CHATACTER!?!? BAD GAME 0/10.” lol. I’m sure they will have fun playing their 6 hour SpongeBob game though.
I mean I was thinking about getting it but I played the original one and still have my GameCube, so yep not happening.
Lady decade had enough of the censored babies. She is on fire. !!!!!
Keep crushing sister💪
It's funny, because depending one which comment section you choose to argue this in, you get wildly different ideas on what's going on.
For people that're like "oh neat, trans representation, that's cool." or even "Yay more trans people!" to even the most annoying saying "OMG THIS FIXES ALL MY ISSUES IN LIFE!!!", they are saying "In the original, she was transgender and the US changed it."
Yet in the more chud Right wing channels, it's clear that the people commenting on it conviniently forgot about that part and make it out that the English release is CHANGING it and not just undoing the change they did like 2 decades ago.
This is actively anti-censorship and people still treat it like "You're not respecting the original source material!". Which just kinda goes to show none of these people care about the source material, that's just another excuse to be angry at trans people existing.
And thank you for being a well balanced person as well. Glad to know there's more than a few out there.
NOA Treehouse strikes again. Never forget how much they butchered Fire Emblem games and how if it wasn't for NOE we would never have Xeno series in the west, but they did sadly managed too get their hands on some of it censoring. I also do love NOA actively promote Xeno now that it's successful yet wouldn't originally never gave it the time of day :-)
In western culture, if a male identifies as a girl, or in this case a "sister", then she's trans. Japanese culture have their own definitions, but by all means, Vivian is trans in western culture by that sentence alone.
If they are born as a male, they will always be male, basic biology
Thousand Year Door is one of my childhood defining games and I have played through it multiple times in my life. It is a game that takes an established game world and turns it from a videogame obstacle course into a place where the characters can believably live. I don't MIND updating the translation to keep it more in context with the Japanese original writing. In fact, I welcome it. What bothers me is when you get flag planting from blatant ideologues that changes original context for the supposed safety and inclusion of a minority of players. As an English speaker those planted flags send a clear message to me, I am not welcome there and I'll hold on to my $60.
Best take on the matter.
yeah i figured they would modernise it to avoid controversy, i dont like the ppl acting like the japanese version was mistranslated with vivians gender. it does say shes a boy thats dressed as a girl, whether thats crossdressing or transgender, its in the game, and its not a mistranslation. they can be mad if they want, but that is the original script
One character being heavily implied to be trans but not outright said means you can't enjoy the game? Why not? It's a very small part of the game.
Thank you for showing more of the story and calling out reporting designed only to divide and rile us up.
Fat shaming is good. Well at least its muchhh better than "body positive" which causes people do die from terrible eating habits.
yep, so many people are dying to being obese
On your final point, you're totally right. The problem is it's going to take a major shift in the societal mindset for that to happen. The biggest focus currently is putting ourselves into a group and treating everyone else as an enemy. Even worse, an enemy that must be eliminated.
this is why im passing this remake up to buy other games
I think as gamers We forgot that some games are made for some people and others are not to keep your wokeness and DEI out of my video games.
Glad I kept the Original Gamecube version along with original Gamecube 👍🏻 imma play it again now
I wish I still had mine, I lost it in a flood.
You're spot on about partisan BS.
I really gotta ask, who cares? Let people have the head-canon they want.
You can't let them have it when they use it as a way to spread an agenda 8:40
That's not a head cannon. That's an agenda
Mods exist
Thank you. I care because I'm trans and every other character in the game is presumed to be cis. It's nice to just have the tiniest bit of representation for once in a game.
@@pajarobobo Thats what keeps you up at night? Others being able to see the lizard people too? 1st world problems.
Just in the first chapter there are over 20+ small changes. I'm hoping they don't change the wrestling tourney part. The dark humor was the best part of the game.
In The United States of America, there is way too much censorship in media. You might as well make everything for 5 year olds so you don't offend anyone. Are they going to keep treating their audience like fools?
Isn't jumping on people's head a bit toxic too ? Shouldn't Mario stunningly glide over uneducated goombas while uttering "Do a better" in mid air ?
No heck no mario if I have this right had the name jump man before it became mario so no u keep that ideology and shove it back down your throat and keep it there
@7:00 Fucking localisers.
I'm surprised there hasn't been any feminist controversy with Super Mario Sunshine, because Peach is hilariously weak and pampered.
*LEMME TELL YA SOMETHIN BROTHER*
King Koopa >>> Bowser
Vivian is exclusively referred to with male pronouns by other characters in the original japanese version (otoko ("man"), and otōto ("little brother")), and in the japanese version of the next paper mario game, is referred to as otokonoko, which basically means effeminate man or "man who wears woman's clothing".
In the entire context of the original japanese version, Vivian is entirely male, and the obvious odd one out of the three shadow sirens. He gets picked on by his other two siblings, and due to his desire to fit in, has adopted a more feminine persona. The humorous aspect lies in the fact that of the three Shadow Sirens, Vivian is the most feminine, as Maryln is a brute who communicates in grunts and Beldam is an ugly, crass, witch-like woman. Vivian never personally identifies as a woman or is identified as a woman in the original Japanese version. They JUST have a feminine personality and appearance, which was changed in the original english localization to them outright being a woman.
I just take issue with the fact that these localizers have gone and mucked with the original english script. The writing in TTYD was the one thing that didn't need to be updated.
Remember when video game was just about telling a good story Good vs evil now everything is politicize everything has to have real world message I'm so tired of this back then no one really care just have good story and fun
Yeah I miss the days when games weren't political! I grew up on Wolfenstein 3D after all!
You aren’t a child anymore is why
@@KnucklesWTD What does that even mean? Why should that matter?
Remember when the original game censored things?? Hilarious how you ppl r against censorship until it’s about topics you dont like
@@darkhonedge7040 do you think a 10 year old and a 30 year old have the same level of understanding and knowledge of the world?
Since I never played a Paper Mario game, this doesn’t bother me. What I really want to know is what are Nintendos plans for new Mario beyond June before the Nintendo Switch 2 gets announced?
Personally I don’t care, I’m playing this game for the sake of fun
Some of these changes don’t bother as I haven’t played the original GameCube version, these changes are only controversial to those easily offended, these are fictional characters in a video game, what is this world coming to when people get offended by a character in a video game, but then again look at the controversy with Stella Blade.
Like the person in the video
And yet it was change to avoid offending easily offended people so... that argument is invalid
You would be a fool to think fiction doesn’t impact culture
Thank you for bringing this to light so quickly!
“Why you have to be mad…? Its just a game”
Omg!! We gotta stop listening to these idiots making this idiotic controversy stuff! Its a game , play or don’t play. Its that simple! I never in my life thought someone would say this game is controversial lol! We all played it and had fun when it originally came out and no problems! I miss those days!
I don't care bear. I will just enjoy what we do have.
In what part of the original dialogue did the character say she wanted to be female?
She said I have a boy's body with a female heart that's cute on the original japanese
@@Hdx64 That does not mean what ppl think it means, it means, that even though that ppl call her a male cause she looks like a male, she still knows that inside she is a women and doesnt care about the insults, and she accepts the way she looks
@@darkhonedge7040 why are you trying to find meaning in what is factual in japanese. The serif is right there... The original script I mean is right there no need to try to read between inexistent lines...
@@Hdx64 cause im not trying to spread false info, tell me where it says in the script she is transgender go on ill wait…
@@Hdx64 That's the Okama trope. Quit lying about it.
I really hope Nintendo Japan steps in and does something about the creeping in of DEI in the Western branches.
They won't care, because they never cared about what goes on outside of Japan. Nintendo only cares about Japan & the ASEAN audience (China, Korea, Philippines, Taiwan etc.) Nintendo has always viewed their Occidental audience as just bonus capital or the cherry on top of their main audience.
Nintendo of America/Europe has considerably less power than they used to even 10 years ago. Back when Reggie was running NoA, they had the power to pick and choose what games would get released. That's how the American release of Xenoblade almost didn't happen. Now, NoA is a glorified marketing department.
Nintendo of Japan probably knows exactly what is going on with its western branches.
What’s your problem with the dei?
Regarding Vivian, I think somebody who has a clear understanding of Japanese culture around the time thay this game was originally releases should weigh in. I know here in the United States, the word transgender was barely even known by the general public at that time, and a video game designer who knew little about transgender people back then probably would have used the phrase cross dresser, transvestite, or something along those lines. I have to wonder if that would have been the case in Japanese culture at the time, too.
Basically to quote TCRF “In the Japanese version, Vivian identifies and presents as female, but is described as actually being an effeminate-looking boy, aligning with common media depictions of transgender characters at the time while not explicitly referring to her as such”. Basically, transgenderism was different in the early 2000’s compared to today
Right. Either way you translate it for the US, you were going to get it wrong because it's very cultural. Like Fisheye from Sailor Moon.
Wrong. It was known. They have like 6 different words for it. Otokonoko is NOT ONE OF THEM. Quit lying.
@@FF8Irvine_Fan I didn't lie. I just said that somebody knowledgeable about the language and culture from that time should respond. Since it seems you have the knowledge, you are free to state the facts on the matter. That is exactly what I had suggested someone do.
@@TransRefuge I've done so several dozen times now. Also, Someone else IN THIS COMMENT SECTION already did. Your name and attitude tells me that if you didn't see that post, it's because you actively IGNORED it. Beat it.
"Here we go"😄😄. Every New Game is up for debate now with a character that has or had any past that might be any other than straight that must be represented in video games. They've opened the flood gates.
interesting thing about Vivian it seems at the time of the original ttyd's release, she was much more popular as always being a female 😏 i wonder why...
I wonder why too... 😏
@@ElectricPikachu64 Yo! are you sooo done with that too Pikachu?😼
The real victims of this controversy are the R34 people.
@@allister-malister9179 so true! 🤣
@@allister-malister9179 i was referring to the innocent minded fans that were content with her original US interpretation.
Critical thinking, i love u
It's like a bunch of 3-year olds fighting in the sandbox ...I hope the grown-ups show up soon
What grown ups? I see none here.
I blame the Treehouse for all the dialog changes.
For those of you who dont know the Treehouse is the localization team in the american Nintendo HQ. They are super left there.
Dude, they did Pikmin 4 bad. They/them were used for individuals
Finally, a rational comment 💀
I blame the source, all this ottokonoko stuff was easily gonna be confusing to western players
@@RodH-pj1py how did they do Pikmin 4 bad? what happened?
I wonder if they made these changes in the Japanese version
Enjoyed the video. Thank you 😊
Context is that Vivian was listed as a crossdresser in the original game supported by the original translation.
“He may dress like a girl but he is a boy.”
Not trans ever, just femboy. Small difference in language but BIG difference in the pointless gender politics discussion and forced narrative.
The whole narrative in the og shows otherwise.
Small difference in language? Nah. MASSIVE difference in language.
@@leedlebob2667 Be gone r@c!st.