Couple of months back i saw here on YT an amateur recording of a live Meshuggah-Show. It was not long in the show when they started playing the song "The Abysmal Eye" wich has arguably some fast kicks in it and they weren`t fucking tight at the beginning of the song. And i loved that. Because it showed me that a brilliant guy like Thomas Haake is what every musician is in the first place: a human being.
I heard that he only even uses triggers for Bleed because with all the kick drums he can’t hit as hard. Everything that band does is 100% live and it’s insane
idk man, Thats cool and all but in the consumers eyes, they dont pay to watch you play your originals poorly and most dont give a shit. either way is fine but to say one is better than the other is arguable. Its still preference. f
As somebody else has pointed out, I think people were more angry that Craig called them dumb than about the fact that some of their favourite bands might be putting kick drums on the backing track either because 1. the drummer just isn't good enough to play those parts in time or 2. the drummer is injured and needs a bit of help to get through the show. We all know that people "cheat" live, and that there are some live shows where everything except the lead vocals is on a backing track either because of the nature of the music (e.g. something very electronic or industrial) requires it or because people are just flat-out cheating.
There are actually some very creative ways that bands could incorporate backing tracksinto their live shows not to replace instruments in a lazy way but to enhance a bands sound, kinda like how Deftones has Frank Delgado. tbh I think artists started doing this because of fans complaining when a live show doesn't sound exactly like the records
@@joyjoyz778 It has nothing to do with being dumb, why do you think they get away with it? Most people cant tell the difference, specially if theyre pissed drunk like many people are in concerts. Its only techs and other musicians who pointed it out in the first place. If you are a musician get off your high horse, not everyone is a conoisseur, if youre not you wouldnt even be talking here in the first place because you didnt know either.
Would love to see ola on the downbeat podcast and you two guys just going wild on those topics. It’s kinda crazy first people go crazy over drummers using triggers and now people don’t even care if it’s even performed life. Love it how you put it out with no filter! Much love!!!
I feel like it has to be the younger generation... i still see OG metal heads complaining about triggers but to not care about playing at all is crazy 💀
I think every time you put a statement out like that you're gonna get backlash. The best part about you (from a viewer like me) is that you're always you. We are here and we aren't leaving.
People comparing studio techniques with live performances is just nuts. It’s sad how people justify mediocrity. At this rate they might as well just play their albums through the PA and be done with it.
@@matthewharrison7868 it is well known antd they are open about the fact that they have been doing that since Nolly left, but here are still 5 guys on stage ripping it up, so I guess it's forgivable
I've done multiple tours with bands that have entire instruments on the backing track while having someone "playing" that instrument on stage (but not having any of their actual live audio coming through the PA, they're literally just there for show). And if you know my history, it's surprisingly NOT who you think it is. Super frustrating that you can straight up Milli Vanilli an instrument and be popular when people like me practice their asses off to be tight live
Luckily I don't think we've had that experience (thankfully) but I don't doubt for a second there's plenty bands out there who do this and hope no-one finds out.
I'm reading this as "and no guys, it was NOT ROS," lol. Also, you straight up rip Mike. All the hard work you have put in is appreciated. I know that probably doesn't mean much coming from a stranger. Cheers.
There's a popular french metalcore band that did this on their tour on a support slot once, the venue was small enough to where you could see the macbook with all the tracks and names on it
I think people are encouraged to simulate talent and musical ability because it lines the pockets of everyone involved. There is also a trend to push metal drumming to extremes that aren’t possible for a human to play. What’s the point?
Metal Drumming reached a point where it slowly becomes a meme. If a certain speed is only reachable by some weird double stroke techniques and relying on triggers because of not being able to hit hard at that speed, I start to loose interest in the song rather quickly.
When a band like Archspire has a drummer, even if he isn’t machine clean, which he isn’t, I don’t think anyone should have the excuse unless there’s an injury of some kind. Granted, I’m not gonna act like my opinion is fact. Cheers
@@jerm2332 just saw archspire and he is superhuman. just saw btbam, and gojira. if these men played along with kick backing tracks the entire genre would fall apart! If thomas haake murders it every night, it shouldnt be taken lightly.
this reminds me of 2005 when my friends lil sister saw Linkin Park live, they are so incredibly tight and meticulous with their live sound, lots of digital backing tracks too. but i dont think they were cheating on stage or anything, it was just really good! but anyway she complained that it was too close to sounding just like the album, back then i was like yeah its actually a feat to pull off, especially for top bands like Metallica, they sounded an order of magnitude better than Linkin Park that day, and it doesn't happen accidentally. cheating w the kick diminishes all the hard work everyone puts in on a daily basis to engineer a great sound. Triggers I have no problem with, same with autotune and automated patch changes on stage via midi and axe fx etc.
You are my Hero Craig for shining light on this modern day drum issue. If I found out about bass drum tracks during a live performance I would actually go to the length of asking for a full refund.
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” Keep up the good work brother….
Some of my FAVOURITE moments from when I see live music is when someone fucks up. Not only because it humanises the whole situation, but seeing an actual pro recover flawlessly from a less than ideal situation really separates the seasoned musicians from the "put the square in the square hole" performers. Lost a stick mid fill? I'm waiting to experience a unique moment to that performance. If i wanted a 1:1 replication of the album I would have stayed home and chucked the record on.
Being a drummer myself, it's very disappointing to hear that some bands do this. It IS the equivalent of lip-synching. I have a feeling that the vast majority of people say that they don't care about this are not musicians. I've always looked at the live performance as the pinacle of a bands ability. For me, the best bands always sound the best live. It shows that they actually have the talent and not that it was over produced in a studio. "Can we pull it off live?" was always how we used to write songs when I was playing in a band, years ago. If we couldn't, then we would try something else or wait until we could.
I’ve been a drummer for as long as I can remember. Went to school for it. If you wanna wear some headphones and keep a click track on so the band doesn’t get separated from automated visuals, please be my guest. If you’re putting actual drum parts that you are capable of playing on a track, you need to be replaced.
I didn't realise this was definitely a thing, but I have always suspected it is given how easy it would be to do. I went to see Decapitated on their most recent tour and just couldn't believe how inhumanly tight James' feet were, so much so that I kept flitting back and forth in my head as to whether it was on the track or not. But when I got home I watched a bunch of videos of him and came to the conclusion that no, he just really is that fucking good. No sure whether that makes me dumb or not...
you do realize you can quantize kicks to be lined to the grid? fact of the matter is, as long as you don't stand next to a drummer in a room with no mics and you can be abslutely sure there is no work done to the audio signal, you can never be sure if it's really the drummer/musician you hear or some audio signal that's been fucked around with
I tech for a very popular drummer, we do all the big fests with all the big bands, and I've never seen this before. That being said, I still 110% believe that tracked kick drum is a thing.
I've personally seen people mime other things, but I don't think I've ever seen kick drums be mimed. No way that it doesn't happen at least sometimes, though.
Thank you Craig, I have been in live, local, and regional touring bands for over 30years. I appreciate it when a band just bashes it out live. I wanna hear real folks. I want to hear how a band is in the moment.
It does feel similar to what I experienced 10-15 years ago when a bunch of metalcore and death bands were using triggers. My friends would freak out like "holy shit listen to how tight the kicks are" and I'm like "yeah, it's triggered dude..." Like that's fine, I don't care, but don't pretend like he's got superhuman feet.
@@tuckerbrown9334 triggers are like lie detectors, if your technique is sloppy the trigger will only make that much more apparent than your typical mic’d kick drum.
The thing is if you sloppy, triggered kicks will fuck you up. I've seen a good bunch of brutal death bands, some of them missing a single note on his kick, and the triggered kick couldn't help anything.
@@spaceriot23 yeah true, maybe tight was the wrong word. It's more the quantizing. Like ok you can keep the beat, but if one foot hits way harder than the other, triggers will fix it.
RUclips search "Mago de Oz Madrid Las Ventas Ancha es castilla En Vivo" It's an almost 4min video from a concert the band played in 2004. Pay close attention to the drummer right after he counts 4 to start the song.
I remember reading this interview with a Power Metal band saying that, for their surprise, everytime they'd tour in Europe some soundguy would ask them "wich channel the kicks will go?" like it was the most normal thing. This was back in the 00's btw.
I’m a drummer myself and it blows my mind that they’re are bands that do this and probably have been doing this for years and no one’s ever caught it or at the very least noticed when a drummers legs aren’t moving in the slightest
I had my suspicions about that back in 2012 at some shows already. It just seemed too tight to be real. On the other hand, Dimmu Borgir in 2007 had Hellhammer on drums, who recorded In Sorte Diaboli with them, the track in question was The Chosen Legacy, going at 290 bpm. Hellhammer could play that, any of their later live drummers could not. They played 8th triplets on the kicks, instead of straight 16th.
Daray is also forced to put almost knee high boots, forcing him to play every set with full leg motion.. no wonder he had to pull back to 8th note triplet!
1,000% agreed, and I would take it a step further and condemn their use of studio magic; grid snapping and sampling. The exception being triggered kicks. Mixes are muddy otherwise and it's good for making kicks audible at high speeds.
Im with you, i know a record is a bands product and they want it to be the best representation of their music, but there should be a line even in the studio. Be genuine, have some authenticity and pride for your musicianship and what your band ACTUALLY sounds like. If a band does push it and their record sounds too artificial, seeing them live should be a dead giveaway though, like when i saw Dragonforce in the early 2000s, absolute studio band.
It’s Hollywood Undead. I know that from seeing them live and it’s obvious of which band he is talking about after saying all the instruments but the rest of the drums are on the backing track.
Yea i dont like that shit, even for bands i like, Periphery comes to mind, i know theyre transparent about it atleast, but part or me still feels like they should get a bass player or have no bass at all.
@@UroboricNate the reason they didn't replace nolly was money according to them. they were already running tracks that were keyboards since they first started so they didn't have to hire a 7th member, and now they don't have to hire a 6th member. they also 100% play their instruments live though. last time I saw them you could hear small mistakes occasionally
LOVE that you called this out. As a fan, if I hear something on an album, I expect the band to be able to play it live or else I am extremely disappointed. What’s the point otherwise?? It’s just studio bullshit. It also doesn’t surprise me. I do want to know the band you are referencing though 😂
Totally agree, I would be so annoyed to watch a band not play live, what's the point in going. May as well just watch the music video. I love the fact you go out there and have good shows and bad shows and show us all the mistakes. Makes we want to see more Stray shows because you put it all out there
I am a drummer and I noticed this very thing happen at a show I went to and it was a huge bummer. They were what I would consider a major death/metalcore band too. They were the headliner. Of course any band or artist can do whatever they want to for their art, just don’t expect me to fully appreciate it.
This is why we love you, Craig. Keeping it real! As if it’s not cheating, what is it? ‘Democratizing “talent”’? What would happen to these apologists if they bought a bottle of scotch that said ‘aged 18 years,’ only to find out it’s actually not? “Oh well, who cares? Got drunk anyway!” The mental gymnastics these keyboard warriors are capable of to excuse mediocrity. This is the ship you jump on when you know you can’t compete, but you just want a free trophy anyway.
imagine being def leppards drummer hearing about this and thinking he didnt have to re learn how to play the whole time. wouldnt be as admirable as he is without going through that hardship to get that great to relearn his instrument.
I am a drummer, and if I lost an arm, could still play drums, and use a leg to play pedals making sounds. Everyone makes out he’s amazing, but any drummer could do this. The Ghost Inside however, very different. Respect to him, he really had to relearn how to play.
@@ednewmy There’s a podcast where he says he puts his kick on a trigger because he can’t always generate enough power in his amputated leg to get the crisp kick sound he could get before. Absolutely zero problem with that and it made me change my opinion on what drum triggers can be used for. Andrew is a fucking animal.
@@toyotaecw Agreed, generally I don't think triggers are too much of an issue (as long as they're mixed well) and especially not in this case. Definitely a very different kettle of fish to just putting the kick on track.
@@mattvdh the saddest part is that it isn’t even necessary to practice for hours, like seriously, half an hour of intense practice for endurance and such is enough.
I ruptured my Achilles tendon a day before a showcase. I couldn’t get a replacement so we added kicks to the backing tracks. Those kicks were of what I played in the studio and recorded months before that. Totally crazy scenario and in normal circumstances, that should NEVER be allowed. It’s an insult to drummers that bust their asses day in and day out behind the kit. People that think that that’s okay are totally wrong. No questions asked, totally wrong.
I respect you for talking about this and you are right it should matter. Inspiration or feeling inspired by someone better than you is a human emotion that matters.
Thank you for all that you do. I back your opinions and stance on this. I can’t believe this is even a serious discussion. Less than a decade ago, TRIGGERS were cheating. What an unbelievable lowering of standards.
I get what you mean, I remember like in 08/09 everyone talking about triggers as this magic thing that made you instantly play like Dave Lombardo, obviously that’s not the case, if you have poor technique using kick drum triggers will only reveal how sloppy your fast double kicks are. But people being okay with faking it is just sad. People love mediocrity.
I started working at the Hydro arena in Glasgow over a year ago and honestly I was kind of taken aback by the nonsense of bigger productions. I'm a smaller gig lover, the sound and views are usually better, you usually get all of the "live feel" from the musicians and overall it's more human (depending on the band I suppose, Leprous keep it pretty tight with in-ear metronomes etc.). Almost every big act that has come through, metal or not, has made me shake my head in disappointment during soundcheck when I see what tracks are being played while I'm at FOH
Thanks for your insights Creg. I know it's not an argument for every genre and for everyone, but I feel like drummers should be more honest and just have a "live arrangement" if the album version is super produced. I'm totally fine for a stripped-down take of album tracks for live settings (and being honest). Gig can just be as fun.
I feel like before the advancement of recording techniques and proliferation of top notch home recording got us to where we are now, people who got into rock and metal did so because groups of people getting together in a room to make music to the best of their actual ability and not juice and fake their perfomances was a more “genuine” expression of emotion and art than what other genres offered. Now most recordings are digitally altered to be as precise and perfect as possible, or are a couple of real instruments and sound libraries, and for me that makes it all indistinguishable from the pop and hip hop shit I was unmoved by back when I got into rock, and down the line it will be indistinguishable to AI created music and all artistry will be gone from the mainstream and most successful arenas of music. I also feel that this is why you’re getting kids saying they don’t care if it’s on tracks or not, because all they know is sterile, digitally “perfected” music. These are all reasons I will spend my time re-listening to bands like Botch or Envy, whose recorded performances have imperfections, but are full of emotion and feeling and authenticity that none of the modern day music can give, and it’s why when I do like something modern it doesn’t have the same replay value to me. Fuck juicers.
One of the biggest ironies I've found in recent years is that hip-hop/rap is starting to move more towards 'live band' style productions with guitars and stuff like that, while rock and metal is becoming more and more like 2000s pop records in terms of production. I think this is partly because some old 'rock' dudes (e.g. Billy Martin from Good Charlotte) have started doing production gigs for rappers, and they're bringing they way they're used to doing things over into hip-hop. That, plus a lot of the newest generation of rappers are 'allowed' to like rock music and say that they like it. That's not a bad thing, obviously. I actually really like a lot of the super-produced metal stuff. The latest Bad Omens record is fucking amazing. I just find it really funny that things are going in completely opposite directions now to how they were about 20 years ago.
100% agree. The saddest part is people that there is even ONE person that doesn’t mind - it’s bullshit. May as well watch a DAW midi track scrolling on a projected screen in place of a skilled human on a stage.
Thanks Craig, its a relieve to hear that people do care. Glad that you mentioned Chris Turner, same goes for Alex Rudinger, love these dudes and I see all the hard work they put into their drumming, aspire to be like that one day (you are one inspiration as well)
Fully support this calling out from you Craig. As someone who plays in a tech death band, fully live without a click, this boils my piss. Can’t play it, don’t play it. Simple as.
In regards to dimmi, It could be , but I doubt it. That era dimmu I believe didn't play to click track. And tony lauraeno played/recorded with Nile previously and was hitting 270 then. Reno kiilerich played live with them very briefly in the early 2000s as well.
Don't shoot me for this question considering it's not about the issue being addressed, but Craig mentioning a Sleep Token soundcheck. I've always wondered if they are wearing hoods/mask while at venues or if they don't really care & it's more the fan base holding the anonymity dear?
exactly, you cannot compare autotune to backing track kicks, bcuz autotune can still correct to the wrong note if you are that off, but a bass drum backing track is more like lip-synching.
Absolutely BAFFLES me that people go to see bands live and it doesn't bother them that they're running more and more on backing track... Like why even bother going to see them live? The amount of time and effort musicians put into their craft and you have guys that are massive playing 70% of their set... Bad omens 100% have vocal assistance live, and it takes away from how good they actually are
I guess these people would be fine with paying full price, the band not showing up and just playing the album tracks with lights and smoke. I bet if it was a machine replacing the picking hand of a guitarist they'd be mad.
Glad someone is saying it!!! Too many bands out here running drum tracks and vocal tracks to literally carry their shows. I just can’t. Bring back bands that can actually perform their catalog.
I think there is a rule of honor that must have been forgotten… That’s kinda annoying because the lowerig of the bar should be an alarm sign for our category, thanks Craig for speaking about it
My buddy told me that the old drummer for 5 finger death punch used a tracked kick drum because he had some back problem and was in too much pain to play the kick anymore? Something like that, but they have that new drummer now for that reason I guess.
I couldn’t agree with you more on this. I love great drummers. I love when a drummer does something interesting or surprising. It’s just fun to watch someone talented play. I have no interest in watching someone pretend to play any instrument. Don’t even get me started on guitar techs/engineers controlling all the pedals back stage.
You don't need to control all that back stage cause you can have it run through your laptop and automatically perform the tone changes for you in sync with the backtracks
Craig makes a valid point, when i go to a show it's to see a live performance not a pre-recorded puppet show. I think that those who are OK with it are not playing any instruments as they do not know the commitment, effort. patience and passion that goes into learning an owning your skills on your instrument. On this, if a member of the band is injured or unable to perform due to medical emergency or illness, these track are okay in order to not cancel and put the band in a financial jeopardy.
The lack of live authenticity is getting kinda scary. If I wanna see a band live, I want to them see live, if I want a perfect sound I'll just listen on Spotify then, live energy is what makes music incredible (even in a studio recording). It reminds me of a clip of James Hetfield I saw on a short where the filmer was close enough to hear James digging into the strings and actually playing, and the first comment was "I personally can't stand the sound of the pick against the strings..." So there's a couple in every crowd, I guess
so i know that there used to be a big fuss about triggers and all or tracking your drums(the ladder being a f***in sin by all accounts) do you share the same negitiveish opinions on full electronic kits?
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Couple of months back i saw here on YT an amateur recording of a live Meshuggah-Show. It was not long in the show when they started playing the song "The Abysmal Eye" wich has arguably some fast kicks in it and they weren`t fucking tight at the beginning of the song. And i loved that. Because it showed me that a brilliant guy like Thomas Haake is what every musician is in the first place: a human being.
I saw in an interview with Thomas where he talked about that sort of thing. Cheers to people actually being human 😀
Tomas is the goat. Saw them in Houston and he was so solid. But HUMAN above all else.
I heard that he only even uses triggers for Bleed because with all the kick drums he can’t hit as hard. Everything that band does is 100% live and it’s insane
Tomas is the goat.
idk man, Thats cool and all but in the consumers eyes, they dont pay to watch you play your originals poorly and most dont give a shit. either way is fine but to say one is better than the other is arguable. Its still preference. f
It blows my mind that in today's landscape, "Live music should actually be played live" is somehow a controversial attitude
I think more inexperienced people legitimately can’t tell the difference between a drummer actually playing a song and a drum sample track
@@drummachine5787 if no one pointed it out, you wouldnt either in the right context lmao
As somebody else has pointed out, I think people were more angry that Craig called them dumb than about the fact that some of their favourite bands might be putting kick drums on the backing track either because 1. the drummer just isn't good enough to play those parts in time or 2. the drummer is injured and needs a bit of help to get through the show. We all know that people "cheat" live, and that there are some live shows where everything except the lead vocals is on a backing track either because of the nature of the music (e.g. something very electronic or industrial) requires it or because people are just flat-out cheating.
It's actually completely on par with today's hellscape.
There are actually some very creative ways that bands could incorporate backing tracksinto their live shows not to replace instruments in a lazy way but to enhance a bands sound, kinda like how Deftones has Frank Delgado. tbh I think artists started doing this because of fans complaining when a live show doesn't sound exactly like the records
If the ghost inside don't put kicks on track...what's your excuse aha
Literally, mans missing a limb and still sends it every night he plays
Well, that's it in a fucking nutshell, innit.
Yes!! Bang on, lad !
feel like everyone got so much more angry with you calling them dumb than the kick drum track callout LOL
yeah dumb people didnt like that
Exactly this
He wasn't lying tho
@@joyjoyz778 It has nothing to do with being dumb, why do you think they get away with it? Most people cant tell the difference, specially if theyre pissed drunk like many people are in concerts. Its only techs and other musicians who pointed it out in the first place. If you are a musician get off your high horse, not everyone is a conoisseur, if youre not you wouldnt even be talking here in the first place because you didnt know either.
In other news, I'll be driving the Indy 500 with a self-driving Tesla.
MY MAN!
Getting one of those things to consistently see corners and take them is more impressive than just driving it yourself
Well played, sir!
Well …. Played!
😂😂😂
Would love to see ola on the downbeat podcast and you two guys just going wild on those topics.
It’s kinda crazy first people go crazy over drummers using triggers and now people don’t even care if it’s even performed life.
Love it how you put it out with no filter! Much love!!!
I feel like it has to be the younger generation... i still see OG metal heads complaining about triggers but to not care about playing at all is crazy 💀
I think every time you put a statement out like that you're gonna get backlash. The best part about you (from a viewer like me) is that you're always you. We are here and we aren't leaving.
“Guys guys guys, I can stop sweating so much if we just put the kick on the track” - I said before I got kicked out of my band
People comparing studio techniques with live performances is just nuts. It’s sad how people justify mediocrity. At this rate they might as well just play their albums through the PA and be done with it.
@@matthewharrison7868 it is well known antd they are open about the fact that they have been doing that since Nolly left, but here are still 5 guys on stage ripping it up, so I guess it's forgivable
@@matthewharrison7868 apples and oranges my friend. There’s no one pretending to play the bass on stage and they are open about it.
Based comment and based Black Dahlia username
I've done multiple tours with bands that have entire instruments on the backing track while having someone "playing" that instrument on stage (but not having any of their actual live audio coming through the PA, they're literally just there for show). And if you know my history, it's surprisingly NOT who you think it is. Super frustrating that you can straight up Milli Vanilli an instrument and be popular when people like me practice their asses off to be tight live
Luckily I don't think we've had that experience (thankfully) but I don't doubt for a second there's plenty bands out there who do this and hope no-one finds out.
Lay it on me, Mike I would love to know the names of these lame bands. I hate liars fakers
I'm reading this as "and no guys, it was NOT ROS," lol. Also, you straight up rip Mike. All the hard work you have put in is appreciated. I know that probably doesn't mean much coming from a stranger. Cheers.
Oh you mean like born of Osiris?
so it's not lucas mann? now I'm curious who you're referring to
There's a popular french metalcore band that did this on their tour on a support slot once, the venue was small enough to where you could see the macbook with all the tracks and names on it
Betraying the Martyrs ?? That would really suck since Boris le Gal is a fucking monster
Was this betraying the martyrs? If so I would be incredibly bummed
@@stringjiggler Yup, I remember hearing about this regarding their old drummer and it really let me down.
Yeah betraying the Martyrs had some pretty insanely over edited drum play throughs back in the day 😂😂
@@TunnelJumper Good thing they now have a drummer who doesn't need any of that shit.
I think people are encouraged to simulate talent and musical ability because it lines the pockets of everyone involved.
There is also a trend to push metal drumming to extremes that aren’t possible for a human to play. What’s the point?
Metal Drumming reached a point where it slowly becomes a meme. If a certain speed is only reachable by some weird double stroke techniques and relying on triggers because of not being able to hit hard at that speed, I start to loose interest in the song rather quickly.
When a band like Archspire has a drummer, even if he isn’t machine clean, which he isn’t, I don’t think anyone should have the excuse unless there’s an injury of some kind. Granted, I’m not gonna act like my opinion is fact. Cheers
@@jerm2332 just saw archspire and he is superhuman. just saw btbam, and gojira. if these men played along with kick backing tracks the entire genre would fall apart! If thomas haake murders it every night, it shouldnt be taken lightly.
Playing in a band this size isn't lining anyone's pockets though.
Stay at home and watch music videos if you want to watch your favorite musicians pretend that they are playing their instrument.
this reminds me of 2005 when my friends lil sister saw Linkin Park live, they are so incredibly tight and meticulous with their live sound, lots of digital backing tracks too. but i dont think they were cheating on stage or anything, it was just really good! but anyway she complained that it was too close to sounding just like the album, back then i was like yeah its actually a feat to pull off, especially for top bands like Metallica, they sounded an order of magnitude better than Linkin Park that day, and it doesn't happen accidentally.
cheating w the kick diminishes all the hard work everyone puts in on a daily basis to engineer a great sound. Triggers I have no problem with, same with autotune and automated patch changes on stage via midi and axe fx etc.
You are completely correct. Thank you. Great channel.
You are my Hero Craig for shining light on this modern day drum issue. If I found out about bass drum tracks during a live performance I would actually go to the length of asking for a full refund.
And then you get drummers like Andrew Tkaczyk who can still absolutely crush it.
Why I like jazz and blues shows in small venues. Real musicians and time moving and breathing to fit the moment.
“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”
Keep up the good work brother….
I've never heard this before but its eerily spot on...I'm just applying it to different situations now in my head and its so freaking true!
My sloppy double kicks are for sure played live 😂
Same 😂
I just automated a pitch shifter on my laptop when I play guitar, so all I gotta do is just strum one note over and over again and i play flawlessly.
Some of my FAVOURITE moments from when I see live music is when someone fucks up. Not only because it humanises the whole situation, but seeing an actual pro recover flawlessly from a less than ideal situation really separates the seasoned musicians from the "put the square in the square hole" performers. Lost a stick mid fill? I'm waiting to experience a unique moment to that performance. If i wanted a 1:1 replication of the album I would have stayed home and chucked the record on.
Are your favorite moments when you eat out and they burn your food and give you the wrong order
@@ekatprankster109 Certified Dumbass Take.
The only way the tracks will stop, is if people are named.
Who is the RUclips drummer that got sacked??
Being a drummer myself, it's very disappointing to hear that some bands do this. It IS the equivalent of lip-synching. I have a feeling that the vast majority of people say that they don't care about this are not musicians. I've always looked at the live performance as the pinacle of a bands ability. For me, the best bands always sound the best live. It shows that they actually have the talent and not that it was over produced in a studio. "Can we pull it off live?" was always how we used to write songs when I was playing in a band, years ago. If we couldn't, then we would try something else or wait until we could.
I’ve been a drummer for as long as I can remember. Went to school for it. If you wanna wear some headphones and keep a click track on so the band doesn’t get separated from automated visuals, please be my guest. If you’re putting actual drum parts that you are capable of playing on a track, you need to be replaced.
I’ve used a snare reverb and impact on really heavy hitter sections but never a whole song 😂😂
I didn't realise this was definitely a thing, but I have always suspected it is given how easy it would be to do. I went to see Decapitated on their most recent tour and just couldn't believe how inhumanly tight James' feet were, so much so that I kept flitting back and forth in my head as to whether it was on the track or not. But when I got home I watched a bunch of videos of him and came to the conclusion that no, he just really is that fucking good. No sure whether that makes me dumb or not...
you do realize you can quantize kicks to be lined to the grid? fact of the matter is, as long as you don't stand next to a drummer in a room with no mics and you can be abslutely sure there is no work done to the audio signal, you can never be sure if it's really the drummer/musician you hear or some audio signal that's been fucked around with
Yes, that makes you really dumb. Now you know.
I tech for a very popular drummer, we do all the big fests with all the big bands, and I've never seen this before. That being said, I still 110% believe that tracked kick drum is a thing.
I've personally seen people mime other things, but I don't think I've ever seen kick drums be mimed. No way that it doesn't happen at least sometimes, though.
Thank you Craig, I have been in live, local, and regional touring bands for over 30years. I appreciate it when a band just bashes it out live. I wanna hear real folks. I want to hear how a band is in the moment.
There’s also a difference between doing THIS and using triggers with your kit, for those coming to this comment section that might not know that.
It does feel similar to what I experienced 10-15 years ago when a bunch of metalcore and death bands were using triggers. My friends would freak out like "holy shit listen to how tight the kicks are" and I'm like "yeah, it's triggered dude..." Like that's fine, I don't care, but don't pretend like he's got superhuman feet.
@@tuckerbrown9334 triggers are like lie detectors, if your technique is sloppy the trigger will only make that much more apparent than your typical mic’d kick drum.
@@tuckerbrown9334 triggers don't make you tight, Jesus Christ.
The thing is if you sloppy, triggered kicks will fuck you up. I've seen a good bunch of brutal death bands, some of them missing a single note on his kick, and the triggered kick couldn't help anything.
@@spaceriot23 yeah true, maybe tight was the wrong word. It's more the quantizing. Like ok you can keep the beat, but if one foot hits way harder than the other, triggers will fix it.
RUclips search "Mago de Oz Madrid Las Ventas Ancha es castilla En Vivo" It's an almost 4min video from a concert the band played in 2004. Pay close attention to the drummer right after he counts 4 to start the song.
I used to listen to that band when I was a kid. Just watched the video the dude doesn't even try to fake it :') it's so sad
dude has the most economical left foot kick technique I've ever seen, his feet are barely moving lol :)
That band always sucked to be honst.
Can anyone fill me in on what bands we might be hinting at here...? lol I'm so curious now
Funny I always said the Dimmu Borgir show I saw in 2003 looked like they just pressed the play button because it sounded soo perfect xD
@@Jordy666sic he wasn't in the band in 2003 neither
Was that with Barker? Because he could deffo do everything on record, live. Saw him a bunch of times from 1997 onward and he was a monster even then.
I remember reading this interview with a Power Metal band saying that, for their surprise, everytime they'd tour in Europe some soundguy would ask them "wich channel the kicks will go?" like it was the most normal thing. This was back in the 00's btw.
I’m a drummer myself and it blows my mind that they’re are bands that do this and probably have been doing this for years and no one’s ever caught it or at the very least noticed when a drummers legs aren’t moving in the slightest
that's a gorgeous set up
Ill say it here but i've been saying it my whole music playing life.... "If you can't do it live don't do it at all"
Seeing rings of saturn live instilled this in me at a pretty young age.
I had my suspicions about that back in 2012 at some shows already. It just seemed too tight to be real.
On the other hand, Dimmu Borgir in 2007 had Hellhammer on drums, who recorded In Sorte Diaboli with them, the track in question was The Chosen Legacy, going at 290 bpm. Hellhammer could play that, any of their later live drummers could not. They played 8th triplets on the kicks, instead of straight 16th.
Daray is also forced to put almost knee high boots, forcing him to play every set with full leg motion.. no wonder he had to pull back to 8th note triplet!
@@ciniclay I‘ve seen a video of him… Looks absolutely ridiculous and uncomfortable.
@@sillyness3456 giant hairy donkey balls on the man for pulling it off, that's for damn sure
Wow reading this comment I had to check out the song, that part is sick!
1,000% agreed, and I would take it a step further and condemn their use of studio magic; grid snapping and sampling.
The exception being triggered kicks. Mixes are muddy otherwise and it's good for making kicks audible at high speeds.
Im with you, i know a record is a bands product and they want it to be the best representation of their music, but there should be a line even in the studio. Be genuine, have some authenticity and pride for your musicianship and what your band ACTUALLY sounds like. If a band does push it and their record sounds too artificial, seeing them live should be a dead giveaway though, like when i saw Dragonforce in the early 2000s, absolute studio band.
It’s Hollywood Undead. I know that from seeing them live and it’s obvious of which band he is talking about after saying all the instruments but the rest of the drums are on the backing track.
Which bands though? Spill the tea!
When bands started putting bass in the backing tracks I groaned because I knew others would begin putting more instruments in the backing track
Yea i dont like that shit, even for bands i like, Periphery comes to mind, i know theyre transparent about it atleast, but part or me still feels like they should get a bass player or have no bass at all.
@@UroboricNate the reason they didn't replace nolly was money according to them. they were already running tracks that were keyboards since they first started so they didn't have to hire a 7th member, and now they don't have to hire a 6th member. they also 100% play their instruments live though. last time I saw them you could hear small mistakes occasionally
@@Chest3rTheSquirrel They also just straight up don't want another dude joining the band, for the sake of the dynamic of the band
LOVE that you called this out. As a fan, if I hear something on an album, I expect the band to be able to play it live or else I am extremely disappointed. What’s the point otherwise?? It’s just studio bullshit. It also doesn’t surprise me. I do want to know the band you are referencing though 😂
Totally agree, I would be so annoyed to watch a band not play live, what's the point in going. May as well just watch the music video. I love the fact you go out there and have good shows and bad shows and show us all the mistakes. Makes we want to see more Stray shows because you put it all out there
Why would you watch the Video of a fake band?
I can't imagine any reasonable drummer would stand for miming to a track they're bately on.
I am a drummer and I noticed this very thing happen at a show I went to and it was a huge bummer. They were what I would consider a major death/metalcore band too. They were the headliner. Of course any band or artist can do whatever they want to for their art, just don’t expect me to fully appreciate it.
Authenticity is hard to come by these days. Love this
You're the man Crag, you need to put more ads on these viral vids though, load it up and get paid for the backlash! ❤
Who’s the YT drummer that got fired on day one?!
i was wondering if it was a ref to luke holland and paramore lol...
same
I'd heard rumor a few times over the years of Ray from Fear Factory doing this never saw any footage that sounded like it though
I also think of autotune as an effect its totally different than faking a kick drum. You are right it is lip syncing
That very popular band from down under used to be natty live. Not so much now.
They sounded too perfect when I caught them live. At one point I even wondered if they were using instrument tracks. All of this a few years ago.
This is why we love you, Craig. Keeping it real! As if it’s not cheating, what is it? ‘Democratizing “talent”’? What would happen to these apologists if they bought a bottle of scotch that said ‘aged 18 years,’ only to find out it’s actually not? “Oh well, who cares? Got drunk anyway!” The mental gymnastics these keyboard warriors are capable of to excuse mediocrity. This is the ship you jump on when you know you can’t compete, but you just want a free trophy anyway.
For when you’re not sure if you want to see a band, a magician, or a pro-wrestling match.
imagine being def leppards drummer hearing about this and thinking he didnt have to re learn how to play the whole time. wouldnt be as admirable as he is without going through that hardship to get that great to relearn his instrument.
Same for Andrew from The Ghost Inside. Re-learnt how to play after losing a leg. As far as I can tell they ain't putting the kick on the track.
I am a drummer, and if I lost an arm, could still play drums, and use a leg to play pedals making sounds. Everyone makes out he’s amazing, but any drummer could do this.
The Ghost Inside however, very different. Respect to him, he really had to relearn how to play.
@@ednewmy There’s a podcast where he says he puts his kick on a trigger because he can’t always generate enough power in his amputated leg to get the crisp kick sound he could get before. Absolutely zero problem with that and it made me change my opinion on what drum triggers can be used for. Andrew is a fucking animal.
@@toyotaecw Agreed, generally I don't think triggers are too much of an issue (as long as they're mixed well) and especially not in this case. Definitely a very different kettle of fish to just putting the kick on track.
@@toyotaecw You still have to actually play if you use triggers.
Why can’t everyone just be Mario
because they're lazy and don't practice three hours a days, 5 days a week.
@@mattvdh the saddest part is that it isn’t even necessary to practice for hours, like seriously, half an hour of intense practice for endurance and such is enough.
@@GreatBurningNullifier I've found gains just doing 4-5 minutes 120bpm 16th note endurance with ankle weights
I ruptured my Achilles tendon a day before a showcase. I couldn’t get a replacement so we added kicks to the backing tracks. Those kicks were of what I played in the studio and recorded months before that.
Totally crazy scenario and in normal circumstances, that should NEVER be allowed. It’s an insult to drummers that bust their asses day in and day out behind the kit. People that think that that’s okay are totally wrong. No questions asked, totally wrong.
I love you man, parasocially, you are a true sane voice 🙏
so who is the band thats doing this for all instruments except the drum hands??
What bands do it?
If I'm paying money to see a band play live, then I want to see a band play live, warts and all.
I respect you for talking about this and you are right it should matter. Inspiration or feeling inspired by someone better than you is a human emotion that matters.
The band Orgy had tracks for all their instruments at Sick New World
Your replies were like reading through a reddit feed
I don’t want to hear anything coming from the stage that isn’t live.
Love these stream clips! Should do more
Thank you for all that you do. I back your opinions and stance on this. I can’t believe this is even a serious discussion. Less than a decade ago, TRIGGERS were cheating. What an unbelievable lowering of standards.
I get what you mean, I remember like in 08/09 everyone talking about triggers as this magic thing that made you instantly play like Dave Lombardo, obviously that’s not the case, if you have poor technique using kick drum triggers will only reveal how sloppy your fast double kicks are. But people being okay with faking it is just sad. People love mediocrity.
@@GreatBurningNullifier this "talking about triggers" has been going probably since 90s :D
Can anyone tell me who he is talking about?
5:35 who is this he’s talking about?
I started working at the Hydro arena in Glasgow over a year ago and honestly I was kind of taken aback by the nonsense of bigger productions. I'm a smaller gig lover, the sound and views are usually better, you usually get all of the "live feel" from the musicians and overall it's more human (depending on the band I suppose, Leprous keep it pretty tight with in-ear metronomes etc.). Almost every big act that has come through, metal or not, has made me shake my head in disappointment during soundcheck when I see what tracks are being played while I'm at FOH
Can we please start calling these bands out?
great topic! This needs to be talked about more.
Thanks for your insights Creg.
I know it's not an argument for every genre and for everyone, but I feel like drummers should be more honest and just have a "live arrangement" if the album version is super produced. I'm totally fine for a stripped-down take of album tracks for live settings (and being honest). Gig can just be as fun.
I feel like before the advancement of recording techniques and proliferation of top notch home recording got us to where we are now, people who got into rock and metal did so because groups of people getting together in a room to make music to the best of their actual ability and not juice and fake their perfomances was a more “genuine” expression of emotion and art than what other genres offered.
Now most recordings are digitally altered to be as precise and perfect as possible, or are a couple of real instruments and sound libraries, and for me that makes it all indistinguishable from the pop and hip hop shit I was unmoved by back when I got into rock, and down the line it will be indistinguishable to AI created music and all artistry will be gone from the mainstream and most successful arenas of music. I also feel that this is why you’re getting kids saying they don’t care if it’s on tracks or not, because all they know is sterile, digitally “perfected” music.
These are all reasons I will spend my time re-listening to bands like Botch or Envy, whose recorded performances have imperfections, but are full of emotion and feeling and authenticity that none of the modern day music can give, and it’s why when I do like something modern it doesn’t have the same replay value to me.
Fuck juicers.
One of the biggest ironies I've found in recent years is that hip-hop/rap is starting to move more towards 'live band' style productions with guitars and stuff like that, while rock and metal is becoming more and more like 2000s pop records in terms of production. I think this is partly because some old 'rock' dudes (e.g. Billy Martin from Good Charlotte) have started doing production gigs for rappers, and they're bringing they way they're used to doing things over into hip-hop. That, plus a lot of the newest generation of rappers are 'allowed' to like rock music and say that they like it.
That's not a bad thing, obviously. I actually really like a lot of the super-produced metal stuff. The latest Bad Omens record is fucking amazing. I just find it really funny that things are going in completely opposite directions now to how they were about 20 years ago.
100% agree. The saddest part is people that there is even ONE person that doesn’t mind - it’s bullshit. May as well watch a DAW midi track scrolling on a projected screen in place of a skilled human on a stage.
Which bands? I’ll be devastated if it’s one I love
Thanks Craig, its a relieve to hear that people do care.
Glad that you mentioned Chris Turner, same goes for Alex Rudinger, love these dudes and I see all the hard work they put into their drumming, aspire to be like that one day (you are one inspiration as well)
Your call-out was valid. It's unreal to think people would be ok with that.
I haven't seen this happen myself, but I don't doubt that it does happen. And what's the band???
Fully support this calling out from you Craig. As someone who plays in a tech death band, fully live without a click, this boils my piss. Can’t play it, don’t play it. Simple as.
Nickelback doesn't put their kicks on a backing track, makes you think 🤔
LOOK AT THIS BACKING TRACK
Nickelback is based.
To be fair, their drummer is actually really fucking sick.
That's because Nickelback's drummer is legit as fuck and started his professional career off playing jazz fusion. He rips, for real.
They can surely play but their music just sucks so bad.
In regards to dimmi, It could be , but I doubt it. That era dimmu I believe didn't play to click track. And tony lauraeno played/recorded with Nile previously and was hitting 270 then. Reno kiilerich played live with them very briefly in the early 2000s as well.
Any actual proofs on band names/drummers doing that?
Don't shoot me for this question considering it's not about the issue being addressed, but Craig mentioning a Sleep Token soundcheck. I've always wondered if they are wearing hoods/mask while at venues or if they don't really care & it's more the fan base holding the anonymity dear?
they were not wearing masks no
exactly, you cannot compare autotune to backing track kicks, bcuz autotune can still correct to the wrong note if you are that off, but a bass drum backing track is more like lip-synching.
BMTH? They sounded incredibly clinical at Download.
That's why I like local shows. The bands may be bad but at least it's them playing.
Absolutely BAFFLES me that people go to see bands live and it doesn't bother them that they're running more and more on backing track... Like why even bother going to see them live? The amount of time and effort musicians put into their craft and you have guys that are massive playing 70% of their set...
Bad omens 100% have vocal assistance live, and it takes away from how good they actually are
I guess these people would be fine with paying full price, the band not showing up and just playing the album tracks with lights and smoke.
I bet if it was a machine replacing the picking hand of a guitarist they'd be mad.
Glad someone is saying it!!! Too many bands out here running drum tracks and vocal tracks to literally carry their shows. I just can’t. Bring back bands that can actually perform their catalog.
I think there is a rule of honor that must have been forgotten… That’s kinda annoying because the lowerig of the bar should be an alarm sign for our category, thanks Craig for speaking about it
Truth always comes with disagreement
You're right. I should go practice
My buddy told me that the old drummer for 5 finger death punch used a tracked kick drum because he had some back problem and was in too much pain to play the kick anymore? Something like that, but they have that new drummer now for that reason I guess.
They have a new drummer cuz their old one was a cop that wanted to be a pig instead of pursuing art. If you can call wife punch “art”.
I couldn’t agree with you more on this. I love great drummers. I love when a drummer does something interesting or surprising. It’s just fun to watch someone talented play. I have no interest in watching someone pretend to play any instrument. Don’t even get me started on guitar techs/engineers controlling all the pedals back stage.
You don't need to control all that back stage cause you can have it run through your laptop and automatically perform the tone changes for you in sync with the backtracks
What's your problem with guitar techs switching sounds back stage?
@@clemensmoeller4549 I’m interested in watching the band play their instruments on stage.
Craig makes a valid point, when i go to a show it's to see a live performance not a pre-recorded puppet show. I think that those who are OK with it are not playing any instruments as they do not know the commitment, effort. patience and passion that goes into learning an owning your skills on your instrument. On this, if a member of the band is injured or unable to perform due to medical emergency or illness, these track are okay in order to not cancel and put the band in a financial jeopardy.
The lack of live authenticity is getting kinda scary. If I wanna see a band live, I want to them see live, if I want a perfect sound I'll just listen on Spotify then, live energy is what makes music incredible (even in a studio recording). It reminds me of a clip of James Hetfield I saw on a short where the filmer was close enough to hear James digging into the strings and actually playing, and the first comment was "I personally can't stand the sound of the pick against the strings..." So there's a couple in every crowd, I guess
What band is he talking about?
Stay away from social media when you're angry bro.
Lars always plays live ❤
For better or for worse, at least Metallica always keeps it real live. Not only do they not use backing tracks they don’t even play to a click
@@VikoTheBassist If there's any drummer who really needs a click, it's Lars lmao.
@@Spermwhales93 That's why I said for better or for worse lol
@@VikoTheBassist James is the click lol
so i know that there used to be a big fuss about triggers and all or tracking your drums(the ladder being a f***in sin by all accounts) do you share the same negitiveish opinions on full electronic kits?