I completely believe that Tui completely forgot what she did with Deathbringers age when writing assassin. The age gap was a complete accident and you cannot tell me that Tui seems like the type of person who would want to write a ship with an intended huge age gap in a romanticised fashion. We have Whirlpool to prove her view on such who is written as disgusting and unlikeable as possible.
There are even more instances of deathbringer being a lot younger, from him being described as only “a few years older” than winter and him not seeing battlewinner in his life Dunno why people take the word of a random winglet as fact
@@thenyan3095 I like following main books lore over side material mistakes happen all the time in warrior cats as an example. If Hidden Kingdom says he's a dragonet but the side material makes him an adult, then the main book is right.
@@thenyan3095 Well it makes sense to me, since this is specifically a winglet on Deathbringer's backstory and it gives a specific timeline and amount of years, while the other books don't give any specific numbers
As a writer myself, it can be EXTREMELY hard to remember every last detail in your stories, especially one this long and complex. Tui's tiny slip-up in keeping track of the details doesn't suddenly make the ship bad or her someone that supports/romanticizes grooming or P3dos. And as he points out, if we go by the accidental age gap, how the dragons deal with this kind of thing is very different than from what us humans experience. Dragon society is clearly in a stage similar to Medieval Europe (not a 1-1 example, but similar enough) where in human society, it was almost expected for young girls to be married off to much older men, and as we saw with Whirlpool (the creepy fuck that he was), this is something that is at least sometimes done in dragon society, as Tsunami's mother was even somewhat contemplating marrying off one of her daughters to him, a full grown adult that we never learned the age of. In our society now, we can largely agree (sadly there are still a few gross people out there that don't 😮💨) that this kind of thing is disgusting. We also have to look at the longevity of dragons in this series. Dragons, compared to humans, mature very quickly, reaching adulthood around 7-8 years old but then after a certain point, their aging slows down a LOT. Dragons can live to around 150 years old, maybe longer now that the younger generations are learning to live peacefully and we can expect inter-tribe marriages to be more common, which will definitely affect things long term. But this means that large age gaps will be relatively more common among dragons. Perspectively, IF we use canon age of Deathbringer, as accidental as it may be, the age gap is not as severe. This does not make it necessarily good, but to outright villainize people that may not have realized the age gap, either because they never read the winglets or the details simply went over their heads, is not ok. Now, if they specifically ship it BECAUSE of the age gap, THAT is a concern. As a writer, I stand by Tui's intentions, as mistakes can and will happen, but I acknowledge that people have valid concerns. Let's just not cause needless drama and target an innocent woman when there are actual people out there that are actually actively trying to hurt children. But as a disclaimer, I do not condone grooming or p3dos, please do not misinterpret anything because I would rather willingly suffer the fate of the Nightwing Volcano rather than support people that abuse children in any capacity.
I agree I mean why are people so hard on a poplar ship in the series when the real problem is adults hurting children and tui admits her mistake of the age so deathbringer is only 1 year older than her
You've hit the nail on the head, as far as I see it. Deathbringer's older than a dragonet, but that doesn't mean he's into his 30s by dragon standards. It's similar to the Celsius thing. Celsius starts below 0 for freezing on a Fahrenheit scale, but Fahrenheit is much higher than 100 for boiling. The numbers are not 1 to 1, nor were they ever supposed to be. Deathbringer is, and I think intended to be from the start, a young adult. Someone who's supposed to be a little older, and consequently a little more aware of the world, than Glory. But not radically so, as to be 'mature'. We see this in his attitudes, his actions, his humor. He's still quite immature, impulsive, and incautious, frankly all the way up to the Jade Winglet fare. This is because dragons do not age as humans do. He's still a goofball during that whole fiasco, same as he was here. Fundamentally, the issue at play is a flawed human-centric perspective. And frankly, a distinctly modern one at that. Might even say a western one, but, it's not like it's universally one set here, either. Regardless; we've the presumption of age as absolute, unbreakable, and essentially black and white. We assume the world functions according to our surroundings, universally. Whether with humans or dragons, we assume the same rules apply. I suppose it's dependant on what you see the point of fiction as, but as one who enjoys viewing new worlds, thoughts, and perspectives, I don't tend to fret about what appears to be a small age gap by dragon standards, nor do i care at all about the supposed real world effects of a fictional medium. Any more than I did when DnD was encouraging Satanism, or video games violence, for that matter.
WOAH I just realized something. According to the wof wiki, Darkstalker is approximately 2007 years old which means that he is about 7 since his slumber is said to be around 2000 years. That, in turn, means that his plan to literally eradicate all the icewings was made by the mind of a dragonet. Yooo ty all so much for the likes! I'm so grateful!
Leave it to JMA to make an entire analysis video on the WOF fandom’s most controversial heated topic (which is saying a LOT) and actually succeed in putting a positive outlook in viewers from both sides of the argument. Most would get torn to shreds by just setting foot in this debate, but this guy can potentially form a real truce with his notes and speeches.
It’s true! If I tried to talk to someone about this who hates Glorybringer, I could imagine getting yelled at. (Not that I know anyone who hates it but still)
It really is a masterfully made video. Not something I would have considered on my own for sure, I'd debated making a video on the topic, but it mostly would've just been a defense of my views, not an open "Let's bring ideas to the table and leave the viewer with the opportunity to think for themselves" There's a reason I'm always inspired to leave such lengthy comments. The videos are consistently just thought provoking and beautiful.
At 8:03 I really respect the fact that you went out and said to stop pretending it’s fine. I am a glorybringer shipper, and I needed to hear that as I did just that; pretending it’s fine. Thank you also for the second point, not demonizing people who hate it. I remember I posted a unpopular opinion on fandom that I liked the ship, and several people were very unkind. I wish I could show this video to them!
I'm glad it resonated with you! I was definitely inspired to make this video by a conversation I saw about this ship that was... less than respectful. It seemed like both perspectives brought important ideas to the table, but they were so busy claiming the other side were terrible people that they never considered them fully. As soon as people started getting attacked for their beliefs, everyone got defensive and all chance of having a useful conversation disappeared. So, I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope it doesn't again!
I also ship glorybringer and it's a great ship if tui fixed the ages and how they age and maybe she tells us the truth about deathbringers age some may complain still if deathy Boi is 13 and if it revealed that he's 7-9 years ppl would probs stop complaining so much
I think it's also worth mentioning that in 'Winter Turning' Deathbringer is explicitly stated to be only a few years older than Winter (who is 5 at the time, and Glory is 7 by that book, so it means at his oldest Deathbringer is only supposed to be a year or two older than her, they could actually be the same age based on that description) Assassin was published after that but since not everyone even reads the winglets and they don't have as big of an impact on the main story compared to like, the Legends books, it begs the question on weather or not a contradiction with the main books in a winglet story is legitimately the new canon just because it's more recent
When I read the main series books, it seemed like Deathbringer was younger than the Dragonets of Destiny. I also find determining character ages/maturity and establishing timelines in WoF very hard based on reading the books only, so I feel like Tui just didn't do any math when she wrote the series and that's what led to this shitstorm
Literally that's it. A mistake in math cause like me, I don't think Tui's mind grasps numbers. And the actual problematic issue is trying to tell my nephew's and niece that, no, your NOT suppose to try for romantic relationships at 7, they're DRAGONS, for Pete's sake. (I read these books to them and yeah, THAT was the issue that came up. I had to pull out of my ass that dragons in WoF age a little over twice as fast as humans. I just about failed even that bit of math.) GloryBringer is honestly, the least of my worries and I like the sass they threw at eachother.
When I read the book, I immedatly got the vibes "Deathbringer seems much older than Glory" But I just loved their dynamic so much, I let it slip by. Again, it's not to be ignored, but still.
This was really well thought out. Like you weren't biased towards one side or anything, but that you saw both sides of the ship. The side of Glorybringer where there wasn't exactly an age implied, and it was just dragons caring for each (which love should be), and the other side where Tui just made a mistake and now it's canon. Not only does considering the other perspective teach us to look out for one another and try to understand another's viewpoint, but it also teaches us in real life that problems don't always have a right or wrong solution to it. Oftentimes, solutions to a problem tend to be compromises taking both sides into considering.
Dang. True. That's such a good extension of the ideas in this video! Life is messy and complicated and sometimes the best we can do is find the middle point that's the least bad for everyone.
I personally think glorybringer is fine, I think the booklet scewed his age by accident, as he was described as you said to be a dragonet in the main books. I do think the age gap as the booklet can make it as a problem, but I kinda view it as an accident and "not canon" as in my eyes both ages can be considered canon as retconning his age makes problems not only for the age gap but the main plotline as well, and I really dont believe it was intended, itd be nice to have a correction in the prints some time so it does not make people, esp children think that shit is okay because uh NO. 🤢 ANYWAY thats my two cents on it.🤷♀️ I think everyone is entilted to thier opinon on this unless they want to normalize the age gap 🤢
I barely understood what people were talking about when first I saw mention of this subject being controversial. I got into the series recently and now the winglets are the only stories I haven't read yet. It's really something that has never crossed my mind in the series, simply because there isn't any palpable age difference at all in how they're written. There's _no_ elements in Deathbringer's introduction book that suggest it's a socially inappropriate relationship at all, so I really feel like it's not even "coded" as one. And I mean, it literally wasn't in The Hidden Kingdom. Deathbringer ALWAYS feels like a peer character to the other dragonets. (Maybe even contrast with say, Whirlpool, who IS written with a palpable age difference to certain characters and how in the narrative, Tsunami understands he's screwed up and a very slimy person, and in the end he gets what he deserves! I think the conversation would be a WAY more gray topic if there were actual narrative elements in the books that played into Deathbringer having a socially significant age difference.) I also do feel like the equivalency between dragon ages and human ages can't be perfectly linear or 'literal,' like sometimes you hear people talk about "dog years" in comparison to human years, but those aren't actual a good literal metric. The dragons ARE dragons so they ARE different in some ways and are allowed to have different social expectations and parameters(different tribes can even have slightly different age benchmarks for that can't they?) , but it's also true that they are meant to be mentally and psychologically relatable to the human condition, so it's also true that's not a full way to "handwave" every issue that can intersect with the subject. So this in and of itself also has somewhat of a gray area. It would be neat if the upcoming guidebook laid out a bit more concrete benchmarks on the subject to bring everyone to a more level understanding of the world, dragon physiology, and sociology. In the end, the intent that there was never SUPPOSED to be any taboo element to the interactions between Glory and Deathbringer, and that it was literally just an oversight in editing carries a LOT of weight for me. Of course it's fine for people to just not be that into it, even without the fumbled ages. I enjoyed their interactions in the books, but I'm not really inclined to put much creative expression into the 'ship,' as it were. For a lot of people, shipping is just a way to express their enjoyment of a series and its characters. Glory is a highly beloved character, and I think generally people enjoy Deathbringer as a character too? For a lot of people it really is just that simple. Especially since I'm sure lots of art, discussion, etc probably WAS made before the winglet story put a snag into things. Ultimately I do think it's one of those subjects where I just don't think it's really appropriate to tell other people that they're "not allowed" to enjoy the characters as a couple or concluding there's automatically really creepy implications for anyone liking how Glory and Deathbringer are written in The Hidden Kingdom. Closed online spaces can be so prone to catastrophizing and eliminating that other perspective. And there's so many worse stories in media out there that don't even have a clerical error to blame for ethically dubious relationships. That in general is definitely its own whole huge complicated topic so I'll stop now. This video did a really good job of explaining things without jumping to those kind of unhelpful blanket condemnations. I hope it helps people act a little bit less unhinged towards other human beings in discussion.
Very well said! Though I've never personally been a fan of the ship, it's always been really awful to see so many genuine Glorybringer fans being harassed and cancelled for enjoying it. Especially to someone who hasn't read Assassin and doesn't know of the canon age difference, it only causes confusion and anger to come from the situation on both sides. The ones who condemn Glorybringer shippers will do so with such malice and hatred, but those who do ship it based off of the canon story and don't know of the issue will see it as just a generic "I hate this ship so you can't like it" situation. I doubt it was ever Tui's intention for the ship to turn out the way it did; she is a children's author with children and a family of her own. However, it did come out this way, and it's something we can't ignore. But the fandom needs to adapt a different attitude of understanding about the situation, because if not then nothing will be resolved. I think this analysis was put together perfectly! I'm so glad someone finally came and spoke out about this topic while acknowledging both the good and the bad, whether by fan reception or by intent.
I hadn't even considered that a lot of people haven't read Assassin, but that's such a good point. The Winglets are probably the least read pieces of canon in the series and I imagine that that alone could cause a lot of misunderstandings between otherwise well-meaning fans.
Thanks for covering this! Glorybringer was my first and only OTP. I had a good ‘pen pal’ friend who was also a FanWing, and we ended every email with ‘Glorybringer forever!’ I was so conflicted and confused when I saw the age gap pointed out. It’s… so unfortunate. I wish it didn’t exist, because it’s the thing I think about every time the ship is brought up, whatever my opinions are on it at that moment, and all that childhood joy is tainted.
In my opinion, the thing that matters the most with this ship is Tui's intent. While it is important to acknowledge that this ship's age gap is NOT ok, it's just as important to acknowledge that this was not Tui's true intention. Yes, she screwed up real bad, but I don't think that it's worth harassing her or other people over. She's only human, just like all of us, and we all make mistakes. And at the end of the day, this is a FICTIONAL story about DRAGONS. For me, it's not worth getting worked up about something fictional, unless the person/people who made it intended to spread a bad message (or, in some cases, if they are too stupid to know that their message is harmful). If Glorybringer's age gap was something Tui intended from the very beginning, I would have dropkicked this series into the shadow realm, but since Tui admitted that it was a mistake, I'm a bit more forgiving of that. Again, it's important to address that the age gap is not ok at all (and it definitely shouldn't be supported, especially when it pertains to real life) but people should know and accept that Tui's real intent was never out of any malice and real supporters of this ship shouldn't be harassed. Besides, there's other MUCH better ships to think about (cough Qinter cough), so I think it's not worth stressing out about Glorybringer. Personally, I don't hate this ship, but it's definitely not one that I like very much either. This ship used to be my favourite, way back before the release of Assassins and the start of the 2nd Arc. And then after reading Assassins, the ship made me uncomfortable. Add to that, I didn't really like Glorybringer's dynamic when they made appearances in the 2nd arc (mostly because Deathbringer's personality seemed to have gotten downgraded). I really like that you acknowledged both the good and bad aspects of this ship, which is something I almost never see in these discussions. I also like how you made great points for both sides. Overall, excellent video, JMA!
I really like how you put in the matter-of-opinion thing in the discussion. I recently just read Jane Austen's "Northanger Abbey" and the main paring is really just Glorybringer. Catherine is a 17-18 y o protagonist and in the end she gets married to Mr. Tilney, who is 26 by the time they get married. But I honestly don't feel like it was portraited by Austen as wrong, I mostly think because of the English society back then in the early 1800s, and nor as controversial, but rather as a genuine fall from Catherine and in the end from Tilney too. And to Glorybringer, I know this controversial age gap wasn't meant by Tui, but as this what we ended up getting, it is what it is. I personally don't hate it, neither is my favourite, it's just "ok tier". Mostly because of the age gap, because it was never portraited as toxic, or Deathbringer taking advantage of Glory 'cause she was young or anything like that. He was probably just a little overprotective, but again, she was queen and I think it's really just coming from the incident in his winglet. Like, good, but there are better. Have a good time reading this paragraph and remember this is just my opinion. XD
I couldn’t agree more! It’s not like their relationship is portrayed in the cliche toxic relationship that many books/media’s do, they actually cared about one another and the books did a good job at writing that. Authors like Erin Hunter and many others mix up ages A LOT in their books, so this happening here isn’t to surprising, it’s hard to keep up with every little thing in stories after a while. Is it a perfect ship, no, but the worse a person could do is harass others for having a different preference than they do. If the ship itself isn’t necessarily bad or hurting anyone then it’s fine by me. Plus if it makes you feel better, I liked reading the comment, it’s a good way to see the topic ^^
I'm a quiet Glorybringer enjoyer, and I like to keep it that way. The ages are messed up, yes. I can't pretend that having it in a fictional society with fictional rules doesn't reflect into the real world. There's some awful people out there, but I truly see this whole ordeal as a writing mistake with no fix. How else can the plot of the Winglets work? It was a mistake, but no effort was made to change it because that would require a whole rewriting of a story. Can we take that particular Winglet out of Canon? No, it's there. To quote Lady Macbeth "What's done cannot be undone." But this whole controversy came to me as a surprise because I hadn't read the Winglet books so I had no idea what was going on. In fact I still haven't read them. The age thing is not okay, and yes while I can technically "suspend belief" and enjoy the "fictional world" created, this fandom kind of ruined it for me; especially since I didn't even read it and then someone smacked with it when I accidently got caught in an argument about it. I truly am on both sides of the discussion, being that I am a full supporter against grooming and the hell that goes on in our world, but only having that blind view before still allows me to enjoy it for what it was meant to stand for and not what actially happened. There's a saying I use for this discussion, and that's "Suspend belief with a grain of salt." If anyone has a better saying, then feel free to speak it.
There are actually points in the book where Deathbringer is stated to be around 7 years old, such as in Winter Turning or The Dark Secret, so Deathbringer’s canon age is actually inconsistent, while his intended age remains the same, which is 7 years old.
Recently finished reading Dark Secret and, based on Deathbringer's character there, maybe his age is ambiguous on purpose. Everything else about his character is MEANT to be ambiguous (Is he on Starflight's side? Was he the assasin who killed all the famous generals? Does he believe in Fatespeakers visions, or is he being polite and playing along?) so my personal head-cannon is that: 1) because he's been places, seen faces all over Pyrrhia, Deathbringer naturally acts a little older than his age 2) with most of the other dragons who DO know how old he is either dead or not interested, the only one to know Deathbringer's true age is... well... Deathbringer, and 3) Deathbringer probably wants to keep it that way because, besides charm and wit, ambiguity is his main defence when the proverbial hits the fan.
Honestly, I loved Tui as an author before but damn, this is actually the first I've heard of this (I'm big into the books but haven't really interacted with the fandom at all) and my heart goes out because this is literally my worst fear as a writer. I don't like to write exact ages for characters, I don't know why, I've just always gone by categories like "adult, young adult, teenager, child, baby, elder etc" and so I am lowkey terrified that if I ever have to put an exact number in one of my stories, I will have 100% pulled it out of my ass and it is GOING to come back to bite me in it later. I think also does get worse when you as a writer have been out of school for a bit AND aren't writing human characters. There is a world of difference even just between what a 16 year old human and an 18 year old human are doing and experiencing in school and life but with animals or fiction it's a lot more freeform just "idk, they doin teenager stuff probably" Just aww man, this is so concerning, especially considering I also 100% would not have put those peices together on my own either to even figure out Deathbringer's age, I was straight up not paying attention XD
I personally am a big glorybringer fan. I really like both glory in her very adult type and deathbringers great sarcasm which always brings me joy. I like the interactions between the two a lot, and so, I was kind of sad when the age gap came to be. I just decided on a simple solution however: I ignore it, like a kid playing hide and seek, looking at a corner with the argument ‘if I cant see you, you don’t exist and cant see me’. It works great! (tho this doesn’t mean I support age gaps like these if they lead unhealthy relationships, this comment is purely headcannon) I do however feel like there interactions in the books are a little too much playing around and too little serious love feelings, bit again, I just ignore it and enjoy the ship. On a more serious note tho, this ship might me justifiable if you take into account the fact that these are dragons who, from the age of being kids to young adult, have experienced things that in our world could lead to traumas and unhealthy environments for growing up. This might have stunned there growth a little, and thus make there mental age a little bit closer together. …maybe, this is just a thought to bring up to discussion because I feel like it might bring up some interesting points and perspectives.
Wonderful analysis! Despite the fact that this is the fandom’s most debated topic, I’ve only seen two videos that actually hit the nail on the head with addressing the issue respectfully and appropriately. One of the videos being this one, and another one done by Numeraya. I especially love how you treat each side equally, as they both have merits and flaws to them. We shouldn’t treat this ship like it deserves vitriolic hatred, but we also need to keep in mind that it’s not all okay. Even if the situation was an accident it has impact, and doesn’t exist purely within the story. You praise WoF a lot and emphasize how much it’s impacted you, and I’m very glad to see you acknowledge that the bad things have impact as well. Personally I’m not a fan of the ship as I find Deathbringer kind of annoying and pretentious, and I think it’s out of character for Glory to have had an immediate crush on him. I think it could’ve worked a lot better for me if it took time for them to develop feelings (in general Tui’s “love at first sight” gets old really fast), and if Deathbringer was a lot more sheepish about it. Charismatic character is flustered by someone else is a trope that I’m a big fan of. Although I think at the end of the day I would’ve preferred Glory stay single or get a gf lol, she’s very sapphic coded to me. In the past I was extremely against anyone who liked the ship and denounced it entirely as pedophilia. I’ve definitely learned to take more things into perspective since then, and to not waste so much energy over ship wars on the internet. Had I still possessed this mindset today and watched your video, I think it really would’ve made me rethink my actions. Overall though, a great video, and a fantastic resource to stop discussions getting overly heated lol.
"Even if the situation was an accident it has impact." That's such a good line and I think it captures so well what many have ignored or overlooked. I'm glad to hear that not only have you grown in you beliefs but also that you're able to recognize that growth in yourself! That is both important and impressive to be able to do. Also, I totally agree that Tui's "love at first sight" trope is heavily overused hahaha.
“Next time you find yourself in a discussion about GloryBringer” Assuming I ever talk to anyone about this book series. ;~; This series is literally my guilty pleasure. No one in my family has read it or intends to so I’m left to this channel. Thanks JMA. :P Edit: rereading this comment makes me nervous is could be perceived as possibly kinda maybe implying sarcasm. It is not supposed to. I’m probably overthinking it but actually thank you JMA, this channel is amazing!
thanks for including my art with credit! When i drew that, I had absolutely no idea the ship had such a large age gap due to the fact I hadn't read ANY of the winglets, and also because I believe Tui really should have considered her aging system a bit more carefully as it causes problems all the time. Really good analysis on why the ship is an issue, but also acknowledging author intent vs what was written
I've been hearing around a lot that Tui has said it was a mistake and I searched for the source on that for literal hours but I couldn't find it anywhere! At this point, I'm more curious than anything where in the world it came from.
Man this video really opens this Ship for me in a whole new light Great Job JMA! You’ve hit us with another great video and have probably covered the most biggest argument this fandom has ever had with both sides heard
YES YES YES YES! You did this perfectly, and I do ship Glorybringer, and I agree. We can't pretend its fine, especially because of the world we live in.
This is really cool! I always liked this ship but the age difference did sort of bother me. You achieved making everyone understand and and look at it in a different and better way! Thank you so much for going so deep into it, no one else has before!
I’m an ‘older’ fan in the series and I can clearly enough remember my first impression of the ship when I was younger. Even after reading assassin not to long after it was initially released. I remember thinking “huh he’s a tad older then I thought” and not much more into it. Realistically the dragons in WoF operate on a drastically different world from us. Not only societally. They mature at ~7 and can theoretically live to 100+ with that much of an age expectancy you are going to have moments or couples that their age spans potentially decades and both are well and truly adults. To be fair, you did bring a point that it has a potential to normalize something that’s not okay. And while yes that could be problematic. You are 100% correct that their age difference isn’t depicted as all great
There's some really confusing stuff In WT, Deathbringer is described as as 'a few years older than winter' which I'd assume is 8 or 9 In Assassin tho it's a whole new story I agree with every part from 8:00 - 9:10
First off: Thank you, as always, for the wonderful video! This is by far and away the best breakdown of this controversial subject matter I've seen, and I'm really grateful that you've gone through the trouble of making it. It's kind of sad that a simple mistake by an author--one that she admitted to openly--can cause so much division between fans. I'm honestly really happy that I read the Winglet short stories dead last when reading all of the books (My reading order was: 1-8, Darkstalker, 9-10, Dragonslayer, 11-15, Winglet Quartet). This meant that I was able to enjoy the entire story series for what it was *intended* to be *before* being introduced to the subject of this controversy in a way that could have impacted my appreciation for it. This is because, in my head, the entire time I read the main books, Deathbringer was the same age range as Glory--since, as you pointed out, during his first introduction in book 3, he was described as a "dragonet", which to me locked him in as the same approximate age--canonically--as the Dragonets of Destiny. So that really is what it comes down to, I guess: Which do you consider canon? Deathbringer's description as a "Dragonet" in Book 3? Or the numerical values mistakenly assigned in the "Assassin" winglet after the fact? After all, both can't be true simultaneously. It's just a straight-up continuity error (which is something that, as something of a Star Trek fan, I've been exposed to so often that it's kinda easy for me to overlook). For me, since I read Book 3 first, and it's what was WRITTEN first, *that* is what is canon for me, and I will consider to be true. Personally, for a new reader, the aforementioned reading order is what I will continue to recommend for people, because I think it makes the most sense and maximizes the enjoyment of the story as intended, and allows for a little final throwback to the characters of the first and second arcs as an "epilogue" to the whole adventure.
Personally, those two are perfect for each other, they have so much chemistry, and they have similar personalities, and they love and respect each other, and they're both good dragons, and they would never hurt each other. Although their second and third meeting was not under better circumstances, but now they both protect each other.
I never liked Glorybringer honestly, even before I found out about the age gap. It just wasn’t something that I found interesting or liked much. But then again, I never really disliked the people who did enjoy the ship, because I know that they have different opinions than me, and you know what? That’s totally okay.
I remember being a big fan of this ship when I first read the 4th book. Defiantly one of my favorites until they released the winglet book and confirmed his age to be way older. I still have a soft spot for aspects in the ship before confirmation, but since then I just can't support the existence of it anymore.
If u was a dragon in this book it would be likley ok but since we are humans in this world you mind unjustifies it no matter what the intent was, sure it isn’t right for such an age different, but it wasn’t glorified third you taking dragon relationships too seriously, u act like it was a 4 year old and 15 year old and tui was like, amazing age and had no regret with the ages
Honestly as somebody who doesn't like Glorybringer just bc it's not rly my type of ship, watching people scream their hearts out about it is why I largely stay out of the shipping side of the fandom
This has always been my mindset on the relationship, and I’m really glad someone more eloquent spoke on it. You did a very good job not sneaking in bias or trying to make either side look bad. It is a harmful ship because of the canon and it’s representation, but it wasn’t originally harmful, or had any intention of glorifying p*dophilia, and until we get the author to either make a *real* canon dragon age calcular, or make a lot of retcons about her own miscalculation, it will continue be a controversy, but definitely not one that we should identify the fanbase with.
To me the ship felt a lot less fluffy than most of the others and more.. uncomfortable in a way. Maybe it's age, maybe their dynamic, but it never felt quite right to me. If you like the ship, that's chill. But still it felt a little off to me?
Relationships in which the characters’ main interaction is constant bickering are never healthy. Because the reader is always left wondering if it really is just all in fun, or if the characters don’t actually respect each other. In arc 2 especially, the way Glory always dismisses Deathbringer and his concerns for her safety almost makes it seem like she doesn’t value his opinion. Additionally, Deathbringer always being up her ass makes him seem clingy and obnoxious. They’re just not a healthy couple regardless of age
I'm glad somebody finally said something. I had been in a dilemma between these two perspectives so I'm glad you said something like this to stop me from drowning myself in these two perspectives I now respect you even more
People are all talking about the age gap of glorybringer (which I personally think was not intended by Tui), but…. Can we talk about the fact that coral was going to make her 2 year old (dragon years) to marry like a 30 year old disgusting dragon named whirlpool? Just saying XD
Tui is human, she made a mistake with the age gap. Deathbringer is only a year older than glory, in arc 2 winter states that deathbringer is around three years older than him and winter is 5 and 5+3= 8 now obviously deathbringer could be a maybe a few weeks or months or so older or younger but deathbringer is NOT 12 or 13. I hope i made my point clear.
Whenever I saw people talk about this topic, they almost always lean very heavily into one side or the other, so I had a tendancy to steer clear of the GloryBringer ship in order to avoid having to "chose a side" so to speak. I think coming into the fandom much later than a huge portion of people (end of 2020), and having highly debated topics such as this one already being thrown around everywhere made my opinion of the ship completely neutral, neither being supportive of it or outright hating it. The way you talked about the different perspectives was very clear and easy to understand, and I think it's exactly what this fandom needs in order to, at the very least, cool off a little in the comments of artwork, videos and posts including the topic. I'd still say I'd have a neutral perspective because of the wide berth I've given this topic, but at least learning the difference between what was canon and what was intended can help me to enjoy the characters despite the fandom drama.
This video definitely put me in a slightly different perspective. I’ve liked Glorybringer since the start, truly, but I understand why people also don’t like it. This helped me understand that even more though. Amazing video!!
Ok, but I really like this video, regardless of if I support Glorybringer or not because of how much time and effort JMA put into this while still acting casual. I think this is going to go really far, probably because of the controversy of the ship, but also so it can reach others and show them what we should accept or recognize instead of neglect and forget. This is just a really great video, again, and I hope other creators can see that as well and spread the word.
Still can't get over an issue with the age, the age is sped up for a moment then goes on as normal? It doesn't make sense, humans live to what, eighty years? But the draconic lifespan is a hundred and fifty years, I respect others veiws on the topic, but me personally, will go through and adjust the ages to actually fit a human lifespan, which let me just say, does not put deathbringer at almost thirty years old. I do also want to point out no stereotypes work perfectly irl either, yes grooming exists, yes, it horrid, but actual, healthy and genuine relationships come from woke age gaps as well, I'm a product of one such, it's another thing people don't take into account, everyone is different, right down to the core, my mom and dad are awesome, flawed sure, we all are, but they are both great people, and if anyone tried to tell me that the relationship is horrible becuse of the aged they met at, I'd pu them in the ICU, becuse they couldn't be more wrong. Enough of me rambling though, great vid man, and really glad one of me favorite wof creators touched on this subject without being in orbit.
Good points! It really is something that has to be considered holistically and any blanket statements on the topic are going to be wrong, just by the very nature of human interactions.
The only blanket statement I've found to be true, is the one that states blanket statements are almost always wrong, people are different, and have different beliefs, some will align with our own, and some won't, it's part of a social environment, one must acknowledge all sides of a story before making a judgement call, or, even better, don't make a judgement call, judging others, especially on their beliefs, narrows our veiw on the world.
Yes, like I've said before, if dragons can live to be 150, and reach maturity at 7, that means the aging process must slow A LOT. Which would make Glory and Deathbringer much closer in age. He's in his early 20's at most if you look at the whole "aging slows down" thing. My estimate is dragons age about .5 to .75 a human year after 7 years of age. Probably not the most accurate measurement, but it's what I've got. Edit: I looked it up how reptiles age compared to humans, and apparently what you do is divide the reptile's average lifespan by the lifespan of a human, so 80/150 is about .53. If we do .53x6 we get 3.18, which would make Deathbringer more like 19-21 in human years. Again, I might not be 100% right, it's just what my math showed.
@@morningrosie3684 just spent two weeks trying to fact check that on and off, don't ask why, and your 100 percent correct, which is really funny, honestly i think some people in the wof fandom just want a problem at this point lol.
In the new book 6 graphic novel ( and possibly the original ) it is shown that they have a dragonet called " Firefly " . She is shown in the graphic novel with other dragonets ( possibly or certainly the dragonets of destiny's children ) with Nightwing features. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gurantee the ship is canon!
My perspective of the age gap is when it takes place. You see, a long time ago (maybe in the 1800’s-1900’s) it was common for old people and young people to marry. You could be a 16 year old girl with a 43 year old man. It really depends on the time in this scenario in the real world. It seems wrong now but maybe if it was long ago people would think differently
People who don't like Glorybringer because of the age gap:😀 People who like Glorybringer because they can look past the age gap:😀 People who like Glorybringer because they find the age gap relatable:👹
I needed to hear this. Almost every platform that I join that is related to Wings of Fire, Glorybringer is either limited or banned entirely. I like the ship and believe that Tui didn't put into thought about Deathbringer when she made the Winglet; Assassin. I wish people would find this video and thinking about what this video explains because it certainly seems like people only see the problem is the age/age gap which is deemed wrong in real life, yet this is just a book series that wasn't intended to have a ship that was intended to be grooming or pedophiliac. If I ever meet Tui, I would love to get some answers about this ship and everything.
Thank you for making this video. I have always been a Glorybringer lover and that isn’t going to stop for me. While I was aware of the age gap I could see as an aspirating author myself that it was a pure mistake. In real life this wouldn’t be okay but you have to understand this is a fictional setting that the author has created, this relationship isn’t real at all. I would feel terrible if a relationship I created had a fault I had overlooked and everyone hated it, that’s one of my worst fears as an author, but as an author I also took the time to read and pay extra close attention to how they interacted. I realized that they both fit each other extremely well and the way the author wrote their interactions made it seem like she did too. We shouldn’t dwell on mistakes like this an author makes especially one that is clear. In reality this would be harmful but it was a mistake, I’m sure Tui never intended for the age gap to be that much. I encourage everyone to take a step back, read it again, push the mistake out of your minds, and read. Then and only then will you find the beauty in this relationship.
Deathbringer's canon age should be considered disputed - the first arc has text that says he's under ten. The winglet is still valid, of course, but it adds another layer of nuance to the discussion in that canon has precedent for both perspectives. "“No, no, [...] Three moons, no. No one sees the queen. Not for the last nine years or so. She’s very private.”" (TDS, page 68, said by Mastermind) "He tilted his head at [Fatespeaker]. “No, not face-to-face, of course. [Battlewinner] watches us through screens and speaks through her daughter, Greatness. It’s been like that as long as I’ve been alive anyway.”" (TDS, page 132, said by Deathbringer) ^ two quotes which, when combined, tell us Deathbringer can't be older than nine in TDS. which would make him no older than 10 in the latest book. He's also described as being a few years older than Winter (who is five) in Winter Turning (page 77), which wouldn't really make sense if he was 13 because that would make him almost three times WInter's age. Also, side note, your quote where he is called a dragonet is most likely referring to Starflight - Vengeance was the one who dragged Deathbringer onto the outcropping, and it would make sense that Deathbringer was trying to get away from him. All things considered, I think we can say Deathbringer is, in the main series, somewhere around 7 or 8 during the events of the first arc. He's not a dragonet, but he's under ten, and he's fairly close in age to Winter. Any younger, and he would be called a dragonet. Any older, and he becomes twice the age of Winter. It is therefore wrong to categorize the argument as "Canon vs Intended" because canon itself is split. I really don't know how it should be categorized, actually.
Interesting quotes and I like the combination of them to place Deathbringer's age at under 9! I think it's important to frame the argument as canon vs intended however, at least in the context of making an argument that people can connect to, because whether it's correct or not it's the one that the fandom takes.
Thank you so much for covering a way of relating to discourse that just isn't talked about enough. I appreciate the maturity and thought put into the script of this video, and I thoroughly believe that the world would be better off if more people could handle debate like this.
I've always been wary and confused about this ship, seeing as I'm somewhat new to the WoF community, but you put it in a light that I now understand. Thank you.
DEATHBRINGER DEFINITELY KNEW GLORY WASNT AN ICEWING he’s been all over the continent also the night wings have their own hide to the dragons of phryia so he definitely knew they have darker full eyes and spikes instead of frills I think he was playing a game of letting them think they were ahead but being taken aback when realizing that this stunning dragon who was playing hard to get was also a worthy adversary
If you look in the wof wiki, Glory and Deathbringer did have a dragonet who is in book 6 the graphic novel when moon has a vision at the end. She is the purple and orange RainWing. She is named Firefly
Yes, it’s not entirely fine, but I tend to take the intended perspective, as I put everything on different levels of cannon. If it’s higher on the list, it takes priority incase of a contradiction between sources. 1: The Main series Books, Newer Ones Over Older Ones 2: The Legends Books 3: Word of the Author 4: The tv show if/when it comes out 5: The Winglets So, if a character was colored green in the tv show when the books said they were colored Blue, then the character is colored blue in my head cannon. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the books don’t say anything about Deathbringer’s age, even acting as though he is a dragonet during the 3rd and 4th book. The winglets tell us his age, but contradicts the books so I take the version presented in the main series books. Personally, I ship them but I can see why others wouldn’t.
I’ve always loved glorybringer! I never thought of deathbringer as much older and they’re for a bad relationship. I loved the dynamic and the way they care for each other. I understand why others don’t like it but I genuinely think if they where closer in age canonically that they’re wouldn’t be a problem. But that’s my opinion and I respect all the other so if you like it or not it’s valid.
Glorybringer is my favorite ship in the entire series. Also, in book six, Moon has A vision with A dragonet's named Firefly that could possibly be their canon daughter.
Well said, sir! I think we can all learn something from this video, no matter which side of the debate we're on. For me, if Glory is the mature and responsible 16-17 yr-old, I always read Deathbringer as a suave and enigmatic 19-20 yr-old trying to act older. It's still strictly speaking 'not OK' by our standards, but it's not so different from how age gap pairings used to be not so very long ago (and likely still are). I think this highlights an interesting grey area in our conception of how age works. Say two teenagers start a relationship with a 2 year age gap. If you remove the context of semi-segregated yeargroups (eg in a school), there's nothing necessarily wrong with that relationship at, say, 15 and 17 (numerically speaking, anyway), same as there's nothing wrong with it at 21 and 23. But because our society demands we put the line between 'child' and 'adult' somewhere, things get awkward when the older of the pair turns 18 while the younger is still 16 (or will only turn 16 in the coming months). What do they do? Stay 'together'? Or temporarily split up until both are 'adult'? While the official canon age gap of Glorybringer is not OK, as TJMA said, I think another angle worth considering is WHY age is interpreted the way it is, both in our world and in the world of the novels. We find it weird when a 13 yr-old is in a teenage romance with a 17 yr-old, but it's less socially unacceptable when there are 5-7 years separating a couple in their 40s/50s. To re-itterate, where they are at the moment, Glorybringer's canon age gap is... not great, shall we say, but I just want to raise this question: once they've both reached, say, their first or second decade, will the age gap still be an issue by our standards or even their own?
I think Tui Really messed up on the GLORYBRINGER ship It's my second favorite ship But the giant Age gap was confusing because there's like a four year old who likes a 42 year old. Even Tui Told all of her fans that it was a complete accident that she wasn't trying to make a questionable age gap relationship.
if you want canon, here: in book four it is said that Nightwings aren't allowed to leave the island before the age of 10 and that "that assasin" is an expetion, meaning that he is cannonicly under 10.
I headcannon Deathbringer's age when i read so i can ship them. It is one of my favorite ships (Qinter being number 1) and im not about to let a lousy plot hole ruin that for me.
I honestly agree with most of the video, it actually helped me view things from the other perspective, however I do bealive there was a mixup beacuse according to the books it says that a dragon grows very rapidly until like 6 or 7 and that after that they grow very slowly, so i bealive that glory could be around 18 and deathbringer around 22 or 23 wich is still a kind of big age gape of four years but not so exaggerated , other than that i still agree with this video, great job ;D
I think GloryBringer is one of the most loved ship in Wings Of Fire. This is so amazing, thank you so much for all your videos. Also, when are you going to do the fan art video? Just wondering.
This is amazingly well said, I agree with you on every level, and I appreciate you for finally brining up this topic, and explaining the INTENDED perspective AND the CANON! This is so so so so good, and I think that now, this war between everyone who is fighting verbally on both sides, is now safe to say, it has ended. So, thanks to summarize this :)
:) your also pretty convincing, if everyone in that war thingy watched this, they'd probably agree. Its funny that this is one of the most fought about ships in the whole fandom (also Qinter...) I'd think something like, sunny flight maybe. I have a feeling that sunny flight is also pretty fought about a lot, but glory bringer is fought about WAAAAY more. But ummm thanks :)
When I first read Assassin, I noticed this. I believe that Tui did forget it. I notice lots of mistakes in books and this is one that we look at and we think, this isn’t OK, and it isn’t. I love how you said that both perspectives are correct. They are. You never try to put people down which is why I watch every new Video that comes out from you.
Thank you for addressing this controversy JMA. I for one have arguments for both sides but lean towards the more accepting side of the ship. Other than the age problem it is a great ship between two very well written characters. Good job on the video as always JMA and hopefully this will stop wars within the community because of an otherwise great ship.
I never read that extra book, so I was completely lost about the whole age gap until you mentioned that it was hinted at in in Assassin. I was sitting here wondering why people were so upset about what was clearly an adorable combative romantic relationship.
I personally enjoyed the ship when I first read the series. Heck, when I first read the series, I never even read the Assassin winglet, so I was never in the loop about the controversy. Though, when I was able to finally read it and I took into account that the age gap was a mistake, that didn’t stop me from liking it. To me, it’s a funny ship of a dork who tries to make his partner happy, and the other who is trying very hard to hide she likes him. And that’s what I like a bout it: Deathbringer is a goofy dragon that cares for Glory, while Glory is effectively a tsundere, which I absolutely adore! Apologies if any of my information doesn’t have any canon basis, I guess this is what not rereading a series can to to you.
It'd be really nice to have a definite age system for the dragons, cause even excluding this debacle there's many other dragons that do not behave their age. Also, I feel the TV show would've been a great place to fix this age issue, but alas.
This is a very well done video. I like Glorybringer but can see its serious issues. Deathbringer's age is very inconsistent and his oldest age could be concerning in light of real world issues. However it is painful for me to see people being extremely toxic about the age gap. They are trying to fight against real issues, but catching well meaning people in the flames. That being said, it is important to acknowledge these issues. Yes these are dragons, but they are also anthropomorphised role models.
You mentioned in the video that all dragons get bigger as they age. However from what I’ve gathered it seems that’s only true for Nightwings, at least in terms of how they’re shown in the comics. Granted some things in the comics have changed for sake of clarity but I doubt they made any changes to the sizes for that reason.
just to again show how messy ages are in these books: in winter turning Winter observes that is Deathbringer is I think he said "around one year older than Glory" (sorry if the wording is off, I read the german version of the book). Since Glory is 7 in that book that would make him around 8 there, which does make sense to me. Yes, it is only Winter's perception of his age, but he did not grow up under a rock like the dods, so I don't think he would be off by 4 years...
I agree that the age gap was most likely an accident, wof aging is very complex after all and it's not directly spelled out for us in the books so we just speculate a lot on how old and large these dragons are. Plus glory is definitely mentally mature enough to handle herself, she is leading two whole tribes on her own after all, if that's not proof enough for people then I dunno what is. Tui is human so of course she'll forget things, these books have many different details in them and it's reasonable to assume she will forget about some things, we can't blame her for what was an honest mistake. Yeah the cannon ages aren't good we can't just let that slide but at the same time if we put aside the ages I think the ship is honestly very good, both seem to really care for one another and have each other's back, so if you don't like the ship that's fine that's your choice but if you do then that's also fine and also your choice
yeah but we don’t talk about how clay is dating a student who is older then him?? Like, everyone makes a HUGE deal about like, a few years. I’ve always loved glory (my 2nd fave) and deathbringer (such a good dude, would be m friend :) ) I mean… I don’t get it- it’s a d r a g o n and it’s comparing them to *humans.* a completely different society. Also, they love each other so I fully support this ship. No changing my mind.
I hate the idea of outlawing the enjoyment of this ship and Im glad that was brought up. Because the reason ped* crap is wrong isn’t because the difference between the amount of time two have spent on the earth is too great, it’s because of what the age gap means for us as humans at that age with that difference is objectively disgustingly predatory: it’s because children can’t consent and don’t have the brain development to be able to have a chance to defend themselves to something they don’t want that is wrong- something that even many adults aren’t able to do properly, some of them because when they were vulnerable as children they weren’t protected. Glory is not vulnerable to death bringer in this way anymore than he is vulnerable to her in this way based on how they act in the books, he clearly isn’t mentally older than her, and we know this is true because tui very simply made a mistake. Additionally, you wouldn’t even realize how severe the gap is unless you’ve both read assassin and do the math unless you hear it from the fandom. However, these dragons are humanized enough that we can relate to them, so we must recognize that in human years with human minds, this is not ok. Personally, this is the original dod ship I find I care about most because it by far gets the most screen time, and in general it is my favorite wof ship, so I would very much like to make content around it that isn’t labeled.
I definitely agree with everything you said I never have ever been a big fan of the ship to begin with. Deathbringer just seemed to be there for glory’s love interest but I do enjoy he’s personality. I always felt like the dragonets didn’t need ships or love interest in there arcs but they all kinda got one really minus clay kinda. I was okay with Glorybringer before I read dragon slayer and assassin which is when I found about the age gap on what they had it wasn’t really pleasant to find out about. Even if it’s not real we still shouldn’t say it’s fine cause these things aren’t okay in real life at all there are kids who have these types of relationships with adults and think it’s fine when it isn’t. Which is why I don’t really like the ships as much anymore. And I do agree we shouldn’t bash or hate someone for liking the ship still they can like whatever ship they want to it’s not our job to enforce them to change ships but rather speak about the things that aren’t good about the ship and explain why the ships isn’t entirely fine. But I’m glad you did this video jade amazing as always!
I thought Glory was like 18 in human years, so if I was right about that (which I'm apparently not) I would honestly see no problem with Deathbringer being 27-28 since my parents have an 11 year age gap lol (To be fair they met when my dad was in his 30s and my mum was in her 20s, so it's probably different than an 18 and 29 year old dating) Maybe dragon rules are different tho idk Edit : I want people to bare in mind that I wrote this at the start of the video after I discovered the dragons human ages
During the crown when aNe Charles sister was talking to the queen about their marriage she ranted about why they weren’t happy and said something along the lines of that Charles is already a lot older than Diana and Diana acts young for her age and Charles acts older for his age “making their age gap and age cavern” Charles was 32 when he married Diana and she was 20 a full 12 years younger than him. If glory is 17 and deathbringer is 27 then the age gap is still less then their by one two years NOTE : I am not condoning the fact she is a minor and he isn’t. But I think Diana and Charles realation ship gap is the exact same as glory and death-bringers when reversed. Glory acts older for her age and death bringer acts younger for his age making their age gape a bit smaller I do want to say tho that I don’t condone anything like that and the difference is that Diana wasn’t a minor. And the last thing I want any one to think is that a 27 year old dating a 16 or 17 year old is ok
Just 300 years ago people would marry young and with large age gaps to keep their race alive as their lifespan was so short. I can see how the same thing might be applied here but dragons still lived to be over 100. Another thing to consider is that this is a completely different universe and as the books illustrate maturity is reached a lot faster for this race. So it is Ok in their world but it would be very unusual in ours.
I am a believer that the author’ intent going into a story usually does not matter because it may come out differently and people are going to take away different things about their media. HOWEVER when it comes to a simple timeline mistake I think there’s no canon vs intent argument. It’s just a simple mistake (something many have pointing out she’s prone to. Like eye mistakes in warriors, Tsunami’s “blue” blood, etc. I’m positive if Tui could go back and edit all the published books of Assassin, she would just go back and make it so this happened after the Brightest Night instead of years prior. Besides, since the Winglets aren’t fully required reading and don’t add too much to the story (except for Runaway imo) Deathbringer is still describe to be around the same age as the dragonets of destiny. To me it seems like an open and shut case. But I know people differ on that.
I know I’m late but even though it was probably a slip up, but the age gap is still canon so I still don’t support it and feel it’s on the same level of Anemone X Whirlpool
Glorybringer also brings forced peace between nightwings and rainwings because if Glory marries deathbringer deathbringer becomes king so both tribes would have one Royal which would force peace between them because the royals are married and they're from different tribes so that's my perspective and thoughts on glorybringer
When i first read the book i thought deathbringer was 8-9 years old, and it stayed that way in my head because he acts like it. I don't agree with the cannon age (though deathbringers might've been accidental) i still like the ship
![What If Starflight Could Read Minds and See the Future? [Se1Ep9]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gJbHdBKNLAI/mqdefault.jpg)
I completely believe that Tui completely forgot what she did with Deathbringers age when writing assassin. The age gap was a complete accident and you cannot tell me that Tui seems like the type of person who would want to write a ship with an intended huge age gap in a romanticised fashion. We have Whirlpool to prove her view on such who is written as disgusting and unlikeable as possible.
There are even more instances of deathbringer being a lot younger, from him being described as only “a few years older” than winter and him not seeing battlewinner in his life
Dunno why people take the word of a random winglet as fact
@@thenyan3095 I like following main books lore over side material mistakes happen all the time in warrior cats as an example. If Hidden Kingdom says he's a dragonet but the side material makes him an adult, then the main book is right.
@@thenyan3095 Well it makes sense to me, since this is specifically a winglet on Deathbringer's backstory and it gives a specific timeline and amount of years, while the other books don't give any specific numbers
If the show wasent cancelled I would bet money that they were gonna change his age in the show so it made more sense
@@edsweet2858 how would you even know though they wouldn't say his age and he is the same size as some of the DOD so you would never know
As a writer myself, it can be EXTREMELY hard to remember every last detail in your stories, especially one this long and complex. Tui's tiny slip-up in keeping track of the details doesn't suddenly make the ship bad or her someone that supports/romanticizes grooming or P3dos.
And as he points out, if we go by the accidental age gap, how the dragons deal with this kind of thing is very different than from what us humans experience. Dragon society is clearly in a stage similar to Medieval Europe (not a 1-1 example, but similar enough) where in human society, it was almost expected for young girls to be married off to much older men, and as we saw with Whirlpool (the creepy fuck that he was), this is something that is at least sometimes done in dragon society, as Tsunami's mother was even somewhat contemplating marrying off one of her daughters to him, a full grown adult that we never learned the age of. In our society now, we can largely agree (sadly there are still a few gross people out there that don't 😮💨) that this kind of thing is disgusting.
We also have to look at the longevity of dragons in this series. Dragons, compared to humans, mature very quickly, reaching adulthood around 7-8 years old but then after a certain point, their aging slows down a LOT. Dragons can live to around 150 years old, maybe longer now that the younger generations are learning to live peacefully and we can expect inter-tribe marriages to be more common, which will definitely affect things long term. But this means that large age gaps will be relatively more common among dragons.
Perspectively, IF we use canon age of Deathbringer, as accidental as it may be, the age gap is not as severe. This does not make it necessarily good, but to outright villainize people that may not have realized the age gap, either because they never read the winglets or the details simply went over their heads, is not ok. Now, if they specifically ship it BECAUSE of the age gap, THAT is a concern.
As a writer, I stand by Tui's intentions, as mistakes can and will happen, but I acknowledge that people have valid concerns. Let's just not cause needless drama and target an innocent woman when there are actual people out there that are actually actively trying to hurt children.
But as a disclaimer, I do not condone grooming or p3dos, please do not misinterpret anything because I would rather willingly suffer the fate of the Nightwing Volcano rather than support people that abuse children in any capacity.
Wonderfully stated.
THANK YOU
I agree I mean why are people so hard on a poplar ship in the series when the real problem is adults hurting children and tui admits her mistake of the age so deathbringer is only 1 year older than her
You've hit the nail on the head, as far as I see it.
Deathbringer's older than a dragonet, but that doesn't mean he's into his 30s by dragon standards.
It's similar to the Celsius thing. Celsius starts below 0 for freezing on a Fahrenheit scale, but Fahrenheit is much higher than 100 for boiling.
The numbers are not 1 to 1, nor were they ever supposed to be.
Deathbringer is, and I think intended to be from the start, a young adult. Someone who's supposed to be a little older, and consequently a little more aware of the world, than Glory. But not radically so, as to be 'mature'.
We see this in his attitudes, his actions, his humor. He's still quite immature, impulsive, and incautious, frankly all the way up to the Jade Winglet fare.
This is because dragons do not age as humans do. He's still a goofball during that whole fiasco, same as he was here.
Fundamentally, the issue at play is a flawed human-centric perspective. And frankly, a distinctly modern one at that. Might even say a western one, but, it's not like it's universally one set here, either.
Regardless; we've the presumption of age as absolute, unbreakable, and essentially black and white.
We assume the world functions according to our surroundings, universally. Whether with humans or dragons, we assume the same rules apply.
I suppose it's dependant on what you see the point of fiction as, but as one who enjoys viewing new worlds, thoughts, and perspectives, I don't tend to fret about what appears to be a small age gap by dragon standards, nor do i care at all about the supposed real world effects of a fictional medium. Any more than I did when DnD was encouraging Satanism, or video games violence, for that matter.
so many paragraphs o_o
WOAH I just realized something. According to the wof wiki, Darkstalker is approximately 2007 years old which means that he is about 7 since his slumber is said to be around 2000 years. That, in turn, means that his plan to literally eradicate all the icewings was made by the mind of a dragonet.
Yooo ty all so much for the likes! I'm so grateful!
True! I think his canon age was 6 when he went to sleep. Crazy stuff right there.
Yep. Rereading Darkstalker and yes he was 6
And Clearsight was 6 and Fathom was 8, just wow
No wonder he was so angsty. /hj
@@Starricane yeah I know.
Leave it to JMA to make an entire analysis video on the WOF fandom’s most controversial heated topic (which is saying a LOT) and actually succeed in putting a positive outlook in viewers from both sides of the argument.
Most would get torn to shreds by just setting foot in this debate, but this guy can potentially form a real truce with his notes and speeches.
That's high praise indeed, especially coming from you!
It’s true! If I tried to talk to someone about this who hates Glorybringer, I could imagine getting yelled at. (Not that I know anyone who hates it but still)
It really is a masterfully made video. Not something I would have considered on my own for sure, I'd debated making a video on the topic, but it mostly would've just been a defense of my views, not an open "Let's bring ideas to the table and leave the viewer with the opportunity to think for themselves"
There's a reason I'm always inspired to leave such lengthy comments. The videos are consistently just thought provoking and beautiful.
Dam right
Ya this is a awesome video!
At 8:03 I really respect the fact that you went out and said to stop pretending it’s fine. I am a glorybringer shipper, and I needed to hear that as I did just that; pretending it’s fine. Thank you also for the second point, not demonizing people who hate it. I remember I posted a unpopular opinion on fandom that I liked the ship, and several people were very unkind. I wish I could show this video to them!
I'm glad it resonated with you! I was definitely inspired to make this video by a conversation I saw about this ship that was... less than respectful. It seemed like both perspectives brought important ideas to the table, but they were so busy claiming the other side were terrible people that they never considered them fully. As soon as people started getting attacked for their beliefs, everyone got defensive and all chance of having a useful conversation disappeared. So, I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope it doesn't again!
I also ship glorybringer and it's a great ship if tui fixed the ages and how they age and maybe she tells us the truth about deathbringers age some may complain still if deathy Boi is 13 and if it revealed that he's 7-9 years ppl would probs stop complaining so much
I think it's also worth mentioning that in 'Winter Turning' Deathbringer is explicitly stated to be only a few years older than Winter (who is 5 at the time, and Glory is 7 by that book, so it means at his oldest Deathbringer is only supposed to be a year or two older than her, they could actually be the same age based on that description) Assassin was published after that but since not everyone even reads the winglets and they don't have as big of an impact on the main story compared to like, the Legends books, it begs the question on weather or not a contradiction with the main books in a winglet story is legitimately the new canon just because it's more recent
true, to me the winglets kinda seem like someones fanfic lmao
When I read the main series books, it seemed like Deathbringer was younger than the Dragonets of Destiny. I also find determining character ages/maturity and establishing timelines in WoF very hard based on reading the books only, so I feel like Tui just didn't do any math when she wrote the series and that's what led to this shitstorm
Literally that's it. A mistake in math cause like me, I don't think Tui's mind grasps numbers.
And the actual problematic issue is trying to tell my nephew's and niece that, no, your NOT suppose to try for romantic relationships at 7, they're DRAGONS, for Pete's sake. (I read these books to them and yeah, THAT was the issue that came up. I had to pull out of my ass that dragons in WoF age a little over twice as fast as humans. I just about failed even that bit of math.) GloryBringer is honestly, the least of my worries and I like the sass they threw at eachother.
When I read the book, I immedatly got the vibes
"Deathbringer seems much older than Glory"
But I just loved their dynamic so much, I let it slip by. Again, it's not to be ignored, but still.
My parent’s age gap is 10 years and they get along perfectly! One of my parents is 50 and the other one is 40. there’s nothing wrong with that!
@@raneestewart8387 When did they meet?
This was really well thought out. Like you weren't biased towards one side or anything, but that you saw both sides of the ship. The side of Glorybringer where there wasn't exactly an age implied, and it was just dragons caring for each (which love should be), and the other side where Tui just made a mistake and now it's canon. Not only does considering the other perspective teach us to look out for one another and try to understand another's viewpoint, but it also teaches us in real life that problems don't always have a right or wrong solution to it. Oftentimes, solutions to a problem tend to be compromises taking both sides into considering.
Dang. True. That's such a good extension of the ideas in this video! Life is messy and complicated and sometimes the best we can do is find the middle point that's the least bad for everyone.
I personally think glorybringer is fine, I think the booklet scewed his age by accident, as he was described as you said to be a dragonet in the main books. I do think the age gap as the booklet can make it as a problem, but I kinda view it as an accident and "not canon" as in my eyes both ages can be considered canon as retconning his age makes problems not only for the age gap but the main plotline as well, and I really dont believe it was intended, itd be nice to have a correction in the prints some time so it does not make people, esp children think that shit is okay because uh NO. 🤢
ANYWAY thats my two cents on it.🤷♀️ I think everyone is entilted to thier opinon on this unless they want to normalize the age gap 🤢
I barely understood what people were talking about when first I saw mention of this subject being controversial. I got into the series recently and now the winglets are the only stories I haven't read yet. It's really something that has never crossed my mind in the series, simply because there isn't any palpable age difference at all in how they're written. There's _no_ elements in Deathbringer's introduction book that suggest it's a socially inappropriate relationship at all, so I really feel like it's not even "coded" as one. And I mean, it literally wasn't in The Hidden Kingdom. Deathbringer ALWAYS feels like a peer character to the other dragonets. (Maybe even contrast with say, Whirlpool, who IS written with a palpable age difference to certain characters and how in the narrative, Tsunami understands he's screwed up and a very slimy person, and in the end he gets what he deserves! I think the conversation would be a WAY more gray topic if there were actual narrative elements in the books that played into Deathbringer having a socially significant age difference.)
I also do feel like the equivalency between dragon ages and human ages can't be perfectly linear or 'literal,' like sometimes you hear people talk about "dog years" in comparison to human years, but those aren't actual a good literal metric. The dragons ARE dragons so they ARE different in some ways and are allowed to have different social expectations and parameters(different tribes can even have slightly different age benchmarks for that can't they?) , but it's also true that they are meant to be mentally and psychologically relatable to the human condition, so it's also true that's not a full way to "handwave" every issue that can intersect with the subject. So this in and of itself also has somewhat of a gray area. It would be neat if the upcoming guidebook laid out a bit more concrete benchmarks on the subject to bring everyone to a more level understanding of the world, dragon physiology, and sociology.
In the end, the intent that there was never SUPPOSED to be any taboo element to the interactions between Glory and Deathbringer, and that it was literally just an oversight in editing carries a LOT of weight for me. Of course it's fine for people to just not be that into it, even without the fumbled ages. I enjoyed their interactions in the books, but I'm not really inclined to put much creative expression into the 'ship,' as it were. For a lot of people, shipping is just a way to express their enjoyment of a series and its characters. Glory is a highly beloved character, and I think generally people enjoy Deathbringer as a character too? For a lot of people it really is just that simple. Especially since I'm sure lots of art, discussion, etc probably WAS made before the winglet story put a snag into things.
Ultimately I do think it's one of those subjects where I just don't think it's really appropriate to tell other people that they're "not allowed" to enjoy the characters as a couple or concluding there's automatically really creepy implications for anyone liking how Glory and Deathbringer are written in The Hidden Kingdom. Closed online spaces can be so prone to catastrophizing and eliminating that other perspective. And there's so many worse stories in media out there that don't even have a clerical error to blame for ethically dubious relationships. That in general is definitely its own whole huge complicated topic so I'll stop now.
This video did a really good job of explaining things without jumping to those kind of unhelpful blanket condemnations. I hope it helps people act a little bit less unhinged towards other human beings in discussion.
Hahaha, you raise good points. Blanket condemnations are indeed unhelpful and online spaces do tend to overemphasize the disastrousness of problems.
Very well said! Though I've never personally been a fan of the ship, it's always been really awful to see so many genuine Glorybringer fans being harassed and cancelled for enjoying it. Especially to someone who hasn't read Assassin and doesn't know of the canon age difference, it only causes confusion and anger to come from the situation on both sides. The ones who condemn Glorybringer shippers will do so with such malice and hatred, but those who do ship it based off of the canon story and don't know of the issue will see it as just a generic "I hate this ship so you can't like it" situation. I doubt it was ever Tui's intention for the ship to turn out the way it did; she is a children's author with children and a family of her own. However, it did come out this way, and it's something we can't ignore. But the fandom needs to adapt a different attitude of understanding about the situation, because if not then nothing will be resolved.
I think this analysis was put together perfectly! I'm so glad someone finally came and spoke out about this topic while acknowledging both the good and the bad, whether by fan reception or by intent.
I hadn't even considered that a lot of people haven't read Assassin, but that's such a good point. The Winglets are probably the least read pieces of canon in the series and I imagine that that alone could cause a lot of misunderstandings between otherwise well-meaning fans.
Ah a wild moon
I never read Assassin so I didn’t even think about there being a big age gap between the two. I always thought Deathbringer was around Riptide’s age
Thanks for covering this!
Glorybringer was my first and only OTP. I had a good ‘pen pal’ friend who was also a FanWing, and we ended every email with ‘Glorybringer forever!’
I was so conflicted and confused when I saw the age gap pointed out. It’s… so unfortunate. I wish it didn’t exist, because it’s the thing I think about every time the ship is brought up, whatever my opinions are on it at that moment, and all that childhood joy is tainted.
In my opinion, the thing that matters the most with this ship is Tui's intent. While it is important to acknowledge that this ship's age gap is NOT ok, it's just as important to acknowledge that this was not Tui's true intention. Yes, she screwed up real bad, but I don't think that it's worth harassing her or other people over. She's only human, just like all of us, and we all make mistakes. And at the end of the day, this is a FICTIONAL story about DRAGONS. For me, it's not worth getting worked up about something fictional, unless the person/people who made it intended to spread a bad message (or, in some cases, if they are too stupid to know that their message is harmful). If Glorybringer's age gap was something Tui intended from the very beginning, I would have dropkicked this series into the shadow realm, but since Tui admitted that it was a mistake, I'm a bit more forgiving of that. Again, it's important to address that the age gap is not ok at all (and it definitely shouldn't be supported, especially when it pertains to real life) but people should know and accept that Tui's real intent was never out of any malice and real supporters of this ship shouldn't be harassed. Besides, there's other MUCH better ships to think about (cough Qinter cough), so I think it's not worth stressing out about Glorybringer. Personally, I don't hate this ship, but it's definitely not one that I like very much either. This ship used to be my favourite, way back before the release of Assassins and the start of the 2nd Arc. And then after reading Assassins, the ship made me uncomfortable. Add to that, I didn't really like Glorybringer's dynamic when they made appearances in the 2nd arc (mostly because Deathbringer's personality seemed to have gotten downgraded).
I really like that you acknowledged both the good and bad aspects of this ship, which is something I almost never see in these discussions. I also like how you made great points for both sides. Overall, excellent video, JMA!
It’s a fucking STORY.
Hehehe I found a fellow Qinter shipper
THANK YOU FOR SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS
@@abandoningbeforeban it doesn't matter as fiction can affect reality
I really like how you put in the matter-of-opinion thing in the discussion.
I recently just read Jane Austen's "Northanger Abbey" and the main paring is really just Glorybringer. Catherine is a 17-18 y o protagonist and in the end she gets married to Mr. Tilney, who is 26 by the time they get married. But I honestly don't feel like it was portraited by Austen as wrong, I mostly think because of the English society back then in the early 1800s, and nor as controversial, but rather as a genuine fall from Catherine and in the end from Tilney too.
And to Glorybringer, I know this controversial age gap wasn't meant by Tui, but as this what we ended up getting, it is what it is. I personally don't hate it, neither is my favourite, it's just "ok tier". Mostly because of the age gap, because it was never portraited as toxic, or Deathbringer taking advantage of Glory 'cause she was young or anything like that. He was probably just a little overprotective, but again, she was queen and I think it's really just coming from the incident in his winglet. Like, good, but there are better.
Have a good time reading this paragraph and remember this is just my opinion. XD
I couldn’t agree more! It’s not like their relationship is portrayed in the cliche toxic relationship that many books/media’s do, they actually cared about one another and the books did a good job at writing that. Authors like Erin Hunter and many others mix up ages A LOT in their books, so this happening here isn’t to surprising, it’s hard to keep up with every little thing in stories after a while. Is it a perfect ship, no, but the worse a person could do is harass others for having a different preference than they do. If the ship itself isn’t necessarily bad or hurting anyone then it’s fine by me. Plus if it makes you feel better, I liked reading the comment, it’s a good way to see the topic ^^
@@screamingbean7509 Wonderful additions to the analysis, both of these!
Can we take a moment to appreciate the absolutely GORGEOUS THUMBNAIL ART?!
Drawn by Biohazardia!
I'm a quiet Glorybringer enjoyer, and I like to keep it that way. The ages are messed up, yes. I can't pretend that having it in a fictional society with fictional rules doesn't reflect into the real world. There's some awful people out there, but I truly see this whole ordeal as a writing mistake with no fix. How else can the plot of the Winglets work? It was a mistake, but no effort was made to change it because that would require a whole rewriting of a story. Can we take that particular Winglet out of Canon? No, it's there. To quote Lady Macbeth "What's done cannot be undone." But this whole controversy came to me as a surprise because I hadn't read the Winglet books so I had no idea what was going on. In fact I still haven't read them. The age thing is not okay, and yes while I can technically "suspend belief" and enjoy the "fictional world" created, this fandom kind of ruined it for me; especially since I didn't even read it and then someone smacked with it when I accidently got caught in an argument about it. I truly am on both sides of the discussion, being that I am a full supporter against grooming and the hell that goes on in our world, but only having that blind view before still allows me to enjoy it for what it was meant to stand for and not what actially happened. There's a saying I use for this discussion, and that's "Suspend belief with a grain of salt." If anyone has a better saying, then feel free to speak it.
I love the Macbeth quote and the concluding quote! Both, I feel, apply really well to this topic.
@@JadeMountainArchive Thank you.
There are actually points in the book where Deathbringer is stated to be around 7 years old, such as in Winter Turning or The Dark Secret, so Deathbringer’s canon age is actually inconsistent, while his intended age remains the same, which is 7 years old.
Recently finished reading Dark Secret and, based on Deathbringer's character there, maybe his age is ambiguous on purpose. Everything else about his character is MEANT to be ambiguous (Is he on Starflight's side? Was he the assasin who killed all the famous generals? Does he believe in Fatespeakers visions, or is he being polite and playing along?) so my personal head-cannon is that:
1) because he's been places, seen faces all over Pyrrhia, Deathbringer naturally acts a little older than his age
2) with most of the other dragons who DO know how old he is either dead or not interested, the only one to know Deathbringer's true age is... well... Deathbringer, and
3) Deathbringer probably wants to keep it that way because, besides charm and wit, ambiguity is his main defence when the proverbial hits the fan.
Honestly, I loved Tui as an author before but damn, this is actually the first I've heard of this (I'm big into the books but haven't really interacted with the fandom at all) and my heart goes out because this is literally my worst fear as a writer. I don't like to write exact ages for characters, I don't know why, I've just always gone by categories like "adult, young adult, teenager, child, baby, elder etc" and so I am lowkey terrified that if I ever have to put an exact number in one of my stories, I will have 100% pulled it out of my ass and it is GOING to come back to bite me in it later. I think also does get worse when you as a writer have been out of school for a bit AND aren't writing human characters. There is a world of difference even just between what a 16 year old human and an 18 year old human are doing and experiencing in school and life but with animals or fiction it's a lot more freeform just "idk, they doin teenager stuff probably" Just aww man, this is so concerning, especially considering I also 100% would not have put those peices together on my own either to even figure out Deathbringer's age, I was straight up not paying attention XD
0:17 I’m really gonna enjoy seeing the JMA OC mascot being implemented into funny bits for these videos lol
Every time I see that pfp I think it’s a bat but it’s a dog
@@Snsidbbfjd Batdog! That’s ingenious!!!
I am really grateful that more people are getting the hang of this ship...
I love your pfp
@@cinderpeltisdabest1003 I love the fact that warrior cats peeps are getting into wof too lol
I personally am a big glorybringer fan. I really like both glory in her very adult type and deathbringers great sarcasm which always brings me joy. I like the interactions between the two a lot, and so, I was kind of sad when the age gap came to be.
I just decided on a simple solution however: I ignore it, like a kid playing hide and seek, looking at a corner with the argument ‘if I cant see you, you don’t exist and cant see me’. It works great! (tho this doesn’t mean I support age gaps like these if they lead unhealthy relationships, this comment is purely headcannon)
I do however feel like there interactions in the books are a little too much playing around and too little serious love feelings, bit again, I just ignore it and enjoy the ship.
On a more serious note tho, this ship might me justifiable if you take into account the fact that these are dragons who, from the age of being kids to young adult, have experienced things that in our world could lead to traumas and unhealthy environments for growing up. This might have stunned there growth a little, and thus make there mental age a little bit closer together.
…maybe, this is just a thought to bring up to discussion because I feel like it might bring up some interesting points and perspectives.
Wonderful analysis! Despite the fact that this is the fandom’s most debated topic, I’ve only seen two videos that actually hit the nail on the head with addressing the issue respectfully and appropriately. One of the videos being this one, and another one done by Numeraya. I especially love how you treat each side equally, as they both have merits and flaws to them. We shouldn’t treat this ship like it deserves vitriolic hatred, but we also need to keep in mind that it’s not all okay. Even if the situation was an accident it has impact, and doesn’t exist purely within the story. You praise WoF a lot and emphasize how much it’s impacted you, and I’m very glad to see you acknowledge that the bad things have impact as well. Personally I’m not a fan of the ship as I find Deathbringer kind of annoying and pretentious, and I think it’s out of character for Glory to have had an immediate crush on him. I think it could’ve worked a lot better for me if it took time for them to develop feelings (in general Tui’s “love at first sight” gets old really fast), and if Deathbringer was a lot more sheepish about it. Charismatic character is flustered by someone else is a trope that I’m a big fan of. Although I think at the end of the day I would’ve preferred Glory stay single or get a gf lol, she’s very sapphic coded to me. In the past I was extremely against anyone who liked the ship and denounced it entirely as pedophilia. I’ve definitely learned to take more things into perspective since then, and to not waste so much energy over ship wars on the internet. Had I still possessed this mindset today and watched your video, I think it really would’ve made me rethink my actions. Overall though, a great video, and a fantastic resource to stop discussions getting overly heated lol.
"Even if the situation was an accident it has impact." That's such a good line and I think it captures so well what many have ignored or overlooked. I'm glad to hear that not only have you grown in you beliefs but also that you're able to recognize that growth in yourself! That is both important and impressive to be able to do. Also, I totally agree that Tui's "love at first sight" trope is heavily overused hahaha.
“Next time you find yourself in a discussion about GloryBringer”
Assuming I ever talk to anyone about this book series. ;~;
This series is literally my guilty pleasure. No one in my family has read it or intends to so I’m left to this channel. Thanks JMA. :P
Edit: rereading this comment makes me nervous is could be perceived as possibly kinda maybe implying sarcasm. It is not supposed to. I’m probably overthinking it but actually thank you JMA, this channel is amazing!
Hahahaha, very understandable.
I also am the only one in my family who reads the series! And your comment doesn’t come off as sarcastic to me don’t worry!
You are just like me, but more, uh, hm, excusitive?
I don't think you understand what guilty pleasure means.
thanks for including my art with credit!
When i drew that, I had absolutely no idea the ship had such a large age gap due to the fact I hadn't read ANY of the winglets, and also because I believe Tui really should have considered her aging system a bit more carefully as it causes problems all the time. Really good analysis on why the ship is an issue, but also acknowledging author intent vs what was written
"It was never a confirmed writing mistake."-probably someone
I've been hearing around a lot that Tui has said it was a mistake and I searched for the source on that for literal hours but I couldn't find it anywhere! At this point, I'm more curious than anything where in the world it came from.
Man this video really opens this Ship for me in a whole new light
Great Job JMA!
You’ve hit us with another great video and have probably covered the most biggest argument this fandom has ever had with both sides heard
While their age difference is strange, keep in mind dragons live a long time. Their age and aging process is different than ours.
YES YES YES YES! You did this perfectly, and I do ship Glorybringer, and I agree. We can't pretend its fine, especially because of the world we live in.
This is really cool! I always liked this ship but the age difference did sort of bother me. You achieved making everyone understand and and look at it in a different and better way! Thank you so much for going so deep into it, no one else has before!
I'm glad you liked the analysis! Though I'm sure I'm not the first person to outline these points :)
@@JadeMountainArchive oh, well I haven’t seen any others lol
I’m an ‘older’ fan in the series and I can clearly enough remember my first impression of the ship when I was younger. Even after reading assassin not to long after it was initially released. I remember thinking “huh he’s a tad older then I thought” and not much more into it.
Realistically the dragons in WoF operate on a drastically different world from us. Not only societally. They mature at ~7 and can theoretically live to 100+ with that much of an age expectancy you are going to have moments or couples that their age spans potentially decades and both are well and truly adults.
To be fair, you did bring a point that it has a potential to normalize something that’s not okay. And while yes that could be problematic. You are 100% correct that their age difference isn’t depicted as all great
There's some really confusing stuff
In WT, Deathbringer is described as as 'a few years older than winter' which I'd assume is 8 or 9
In Assassin tho it's a whole new story
I agree with every part from 8:00 - 9:10
First off: Thank you, as always, for the wonderful video! This is by far and away the best breakdown of this controversial subject matter I've seen, and I'm really grateful that you've gone through the trouble of making it. It's kind of sad that a simple mistake by an author--one that she admitted to openly--can cause so much division between fans.
I'm honestly really happy that I read the Winglet short stories dead last when reading all of the books (My reading order was: 1-8, Darkstalker, 9-10, Dragonslayer, 11-15, Winglet Quartet). This meant that I was able to enjoy the entire story series for what it was *intended* to be *before* being introduced to the subject of this controversy in a way that could have impacted my appreciation for it. This is because, in my head, the entire time I read the main books, Deathbringer was the same age range as Glory--since, as you pointed out, during his first introduction in book 3, he was described as a "dragonet", which to me locked him in as the same approximate age--canonically--as the Dragonets of Destiny.
So that really is what it comes down to, I guess: Which do you consider canon? Deathbringer's description as a "Dragonet" in Book 3? Or the numerical values mistakenly assigned in the "Assassin" winglet after the fact? After all, both can't be true simultaneously. It's just a straight-up continuity error (which is something that, as something of a Star Trek fan, I've been exposed to so often that it's kinda easy for me to overlook). For me, since I read Book 3 first, and it's what was WRITTEN first, *that* is what is canon for me, and I will consider to be true.
Personally, for a new reader, the aforementioned reading order is what I will continue to recommend for people, because I think it makes the most sense and maximizes the enjoyment of the story as intended, and allows for a little final throwback to the characters of the first and second arcs as an "epilogue" to the whole adventure.
Personally, those two are perfect for each other, they have so much chemistry, and they have similar personalities, and they love and respect each other, and they're both good dragons, and they would never hurt each other. Although their second and third meeting was not under better circumstances, but now they both protect each other.
PLEASE KEEP POSTING!!! can’t go this long without a post bruh
These videos take a lot of time to make! I'm going as fast as I can :D
I don't think the age matters anyway... cuz my Dad is 14 years older than my Mom so...
GloryBringer is still the best ship in Wings of Fire.
I never liked Glorybringer honestly, even before I found out about the age gap. It just wasn’t something that I found interesting or liked much. But then again, I never really disliked the people who did enjoy the ship, because I know that they have different opinions than me, and you know what? That’s totally okay.
Indeed :)
I remember being a big fan of this ship when I first read the 4th book. Defiantly one of my favorites until they released the winglet book and confirmed his age to be way older. I still have a soft spot for aspects in the ship before confirmation, but since then I just can't support the existence of it anymore.
That's a fair view to hold
If u was a dragon in this book it would be likley ok but since we are humans in this world you mind unjustifies it no matter what the intent was, sure it isn’t right for such an age different, but it wasn’t glorified third you taking dragon relationships too seriously, u act like it was a 4 year old and 15 year old and tui was like, amazing age and had no regret with the ages
Honestly as somebody who doesn't like Glorybringer just bc it's not rly my type of ship, watching people scream their hearts out about it is why I largely stay out of the shipping side of the fandom
That's very smart I think hahaha
This has always been my mindset on the relationship, and I’m really glad someone more eloquent spoke on it. You did a very good job not sneaking in bias or trying to make either side look bad. It is a harmful ship because of the canon and it’s representation, but it wasn’t originally harmful, or had any intention of glorifying p*dophilia, and until we get the author to either make a *real* canon dragon age calcular, or make a lot of retcons about her own miscalculation, it will continue be a controversy, but definitely not one that we should identify the fanbase with.
To me the ship felt a lot less fluffy than most of the others and more.. uncomfortable in a way. Maybe it's age, maybe their dynamic, but it never felt quite right to me. If you like the ship, that's chill. But still it felt a little off to me?
That's totally fair.
Relationships in which the characters’ main interaction is constant bickering are never healthy. Because the reader is always left wondering if it really is just all in fun, or if the characters don’t actually respect each other. In arc 2 especially, the way Glory always dismisses Deathbringer and his concerns for her safety almost makes it seem like she doesn’t value his opinion. Additionally, Deathbringer always being up her ass makes him seem clingy and obnoxious. They’re just not a healthy couple regardless of age
I'm glad somebody finally said something. I had been in a dilemma between these two perspectives so I'm glad you said something like this to stop me from drowning myself in these two perspectives I now respect you even more
People are all talking about the age gap of glorybringer (which I personally think was not intended by Tui), but…. Can we talk about the fact that coral was going to make her 2 year old (dragon years) to marry like a 30 year old disgusting dragon named whirlpool? Just saying XD
ikr?! but i understand how Tui made an impact on it. whirlpool and anemone were NOT meant to be a cute lil ship, but glory and deathrbinger was
glory and bringer are the best together like there so sweet to each other
Oohhoh I clicked so fast
Your pfp makes it even funnier😂
The video DEFINITELY has a very eye-catching title. Props to JMA for coming up with it to hook viewers in so well!
So did i
Same
THANK YOU!!! I'VE BEEN TRYING TO GET THIS MESSAGE TO PEOPLE SINCE THE TIME OF DARKSTALKER!!!
The age gap… I’m crying
Tui is human, she made a mistake with the age gap. Deathbringer is only a year older than glory, in arc 2 winter states that deathbringer is around three years older than him and winter is 5 and 5+3= 8 now obviously deathbringer could be a maybe a few weeks or months or so older or younger but deathbringer is NOT 12 or 13. I hope i made my point clear.
Whenever I saw people talk about this topic, they almost always lean very heavily into one side or the other, so I had a tendancy to steer clear of the GloryBringer ship in order to avoid having to "chose a side" so to speak. I think coming into the fandom much later than a huge portion of people (end of 2020), and having highly debated topics such as this one already being thrown around everywhere made my opinion of the ship completely neutral, neither being supportive of it or outright hating it.
The way you talked about the different perspectives was very clear and easy to understand, and I think it's exactly what this fandom needs in order to, at the very least, cool off a little in the comments of artwork, videos and posts including the topic. I'd still say I'd have a neutral perspective because of the wide berth I've given this topic, but at least learning the difference between what was canon and what was intended can help me to enjoy the characters despite the fandom drama.
Hahaha, staying clear of it all is probably a good idea :P
This video definitely put me in a slightly different perspective. I’ve liked Glorybringer since the start, truly, but I understand why people also don’t like it. This helped me understand that even more though.
Amazing video!!
Ok, but I really like this video, regardless of if I support Glorybringer or not because of how much time and effort JMA put into this while still acting casual. I think this is going to go really far, probably because of the controversy of the ship, but also so it can reach others and show them what we should accept or recognize instead of neglect and forget. This is just a really great video, again, and I hope other creators can see that as well and spread the word.
nice pfp
@@LookinkYTP same goes for you
That acutely makes sense. Even from me some one who has never heard of Glorybringer
In our world this relationship is not okay, but in the dragon world this may be seen as a fine relationship.
Still can't get over an issue with the age, the age is sped up for a moment then goes on as normal? It doesn't make sense, humans live to what, eighty years? But the draconic lifespan is a hundred and fifty years, I respect others veiws on the topic, but me personally, will go through and adjust the ages to actually fit a human lifespan, which let me just say, does not put deathbringer at almost thirty years old.
I do also want to point out no stereotypes work perfectly irl either, yes grooming exists, yes, it horrid, but actual, healthy and genuine relationships come from woke age gaps as well, I'm a product of one such, it's another thing people don't take into account, everyone is different, right down to the core, my mom and dad are awesome, flawed sure, we all are, but they are both great people, and if anyone tried to tell me that the relationship is horrible becuse of the aged they met at, I'd pu them in the ICU, becuse they couldn't be more wrong.
Enough of me rambling though, great vid man, and really glad one of me favorite wof creators touched on this subject without being in orbit.
Good points! It really is something that has to be considered holistically and any blanket statements on the topic are going to be wrong, just by the very nature of human interactions.
The only blanket statement I've found to be true, is the one that states blanket statements are almost always wrong, people are different, and have different beliefs, some will align with our own, and some won't, it's part of a social environment, one must acknowledge all sides of a story before making a judgement call, or, even better, don't make a judgement call, judging others, especially on their beliefs, narrows our veiw on the world.
Yes, like I've said before, if dragons can live to be 150, and reach maturity at 7, that means the aging process must slow A LOT. Which would make Glory and Deathbringer much closer in age. He's in his early 20's at most if you look at the whole "aging slows down" thing. My estimate is dragons age about .5 to .75 a human year after 7 years of age. Probably not the most accurate measurement, but it's what I've got.
Edit: I looked it up how reptiles age compared to humans, and apparently what you do is divide the reptile's average lifespan by the lifespan of a human, so 80/150 is about .53. If we do .53x6 we get 3.18, which would make Deathbringer more like 19-21 in human years.
Again, I might not be 100% right, it's just what my math showed.
@@morningrosie3684 just spent two weeks trying to fact check that on and off, don't ask why, and your 100 percent correct, which is really funny, honestly i think some people in the wof fandom just want a problem at this point lol.
In the new book 6 graphic novel ( and possibly the original ) it is shown that they have a dragonet called " Firefly " . She is shown in the graphic novel with other dragonets ( possibly or certainly the dragonets of destiny's children ) with Nightwing features. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I gurantee the ship is canon!
My perspective of the age gap is when it takes place. You see, a long time ago (maybe in the 1800’s-1900’s) it was common for old people and young people to marry. You could be a 16 year old girl with a 43 year old man. It really depends on the time in this scenario in the real world. It seems wrong now but maybe if it was long ago people would think differently
People who don't like Glorybringer because of the age gap:😀
People who like Glorybringer because they can look past the age gap:😀
People who like Glorybringer because they find the age gap relatable:👹
I needed to hear this. Almost every platform that I join that is related to Wings of Fire, Glorybringer is either limited or banned entirely. I like the ship and believe that Tui didn't put into thought about Deathbringer when she made the Winglet; Assassin. I wish people would find this video and thinking about what this video explains because it certainly seems like people only see the problem is the age/age gap which is deemed wrong in real life, yet this is just a book series that wasn't intended to have a ship that was intended to be grooming or pedophiliac.
If I ever meet Tui, I would love to get some answers about this ship and everything.
Thank you for making this video. I have always been a Glorybringer lover and that isn’t going to stop for me. While I was aware of the age gap I could see as an aspirating author myself that it was a pure mistake. In real life this wouldn’t be okay but you have to understand this is a fictional setting that the author has created, this relationship isn’t real at all. I would feel terrible if a relationship I created had a fault I had overlooked and everyone hated it, that’s one of my worst fears as an author, but as an author I also took the time to read and pay extra close attention to how they interacted. I realized that they both fit each other extremely well and the way the author wrote their interactions made it seem like she did too. We shouldn’t dwell on mistakes like this an author makes especially one that is clear. In reality this would be harmful but it was a mistake, I’m sure Tui never intended for the age gap to be that much. I encourage everyone to take a step back, read it again, push the mistake out of your minds, and read. Then and only then will you find the beauty in this relationship.
Deathbringer's canon age should be considered disputed - the first arc has text that says he's under ten. The winglet is still valid, of course, but it adds another layer of nuance to the discussion in that canon has precedent for both perspectives.
"“No, no, [...] Three moons, no. No one sees the queen. Not for the last nine years or so. She’s very private.”" (TDS, page 68, said by Mastermind)
"He tilted his head at [Fatespeaker]. “No, not face-to-face, of course. [Battlewinner] watches us through screens and speaks through her daughter, Greatness. It’s been like that as long as I’ve been alive anyway.”" (TDS, page 132, said by Deathbringer)
^ two quotes which, when combined, tell us Deathbringer can't be older than nine in TDS. which would make him no older than 10 in the latest book.
He's also described as being a few years older than Winter (who is five) in Winter Turning (page 77), which wouldn't really make sense if he was 13 because that would make him almost three times WInter's age.
Also, side note, your quote where he is called a dragonet is most likely referring to Starflight - Vengeance was the one who dragged Deathbringer onto the outcropping, and it would make sense that Deathbringer was trying to get away from him.
All things considered, I think we can say Deathbringer is, in the main series, somewhere around 7 or 8 during the events of the first arc. He's not a dragonet, but he's under ten, and he's fairly close in age to Winter. Any younger, and he would be called a dragonet. Any older, and he becomes twice the age of Winter.
It is therefore wrong to categorize the argument as "Canon vs Intended" because canon itself is split. I really don't know how it should be categorized, actually.
Interesting quotes and I like the combination of them to place Deathbringer's age at under 9! I think it's important to frame the argument as canon vs intended however, at least in the context of making an argument that people can connect to, because whether it's correct or not it's the one that the fandom takes.
5:55 "Starflight is probably the smallest"
Sunny: 👁👄👁
Hence the bottom right text
Yeah haha, I did some more researching on that point after I recorded the script so I ended up including the text to correct it.
Thank you so much for covering a way of relating to discourse that just isn't talked about enough. I appreciate the maturity and thought put into the script of this video, and I thoroughly believe that the world would be better off if more people could handle debate like this.
I've always been wary and confused about this ship, seeing as I'm somewhat new to the WoF community, but you put it in a light that I now understand. Thank you.
DEATHBRINGER DEFINITELY KNEW GLORY WASNT AN ICEWING he’s been all over the continent also the night wings have their own hide to the dragons of phryia so he definitely knew they have darker full eyes and spikes instead of frills I think he was playing a game of letting them think they were ahead but being taken aback when realizing that this stunning dragon who was playing hard to get was also a worthy adversary
If you look in the wof wiki, Glory and Deathbringer did have a dragonet who is in book 6 the graphic novel when moon has a vision at the end. She is the purple and orange RainWing. She is named Firefly
Yes, it’s not entirely fine, but I tend to take the intended perspective, as I put everything on different levels of cannon. If it’s higher on the list, it takes priority incase of a contradiction between sources.
1: The Main series Books, Newer Ones Over Older Ones
2: The Legends Books
3: Word of the Author
4: The tv show if/when it comes out
5: The Winglets
So, if a character was colored green in the tv show when the books said they were colored Blue, then the character is colored blue in my head cannon.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the books don’t say anything about Deathbringer’s age, even acting as though he is a dragonet during the 3rd and 4th book. The winglets tell us his age, but contradicts the books so I take the version presented in the main series books.
Personally, I ship them but I can see why others wouldn’t.
And yet people are saying glory doesn’t love deathbringer... just tolerates him
I’ve always loved glorybringer! I never thought of deathbringer as much older and they’re for a bad relationship. I loved the dynamic and the way they care for each other. I understand why others don’t like it but I genuinely think if they where closer in age canonically that they’re wouldn’t be a problem. But that’s my opinion and I respect all the other so if you like it or not it’s valid.
Glorybringer is my favorite ship in the entire series. Also, in book six, Moon has A vision with A dragonet's named Firefly that could possibly be their canon daughter.
Well said, sir! I think we can all learn something from this video, no matter which side of the debate we're on.
For me, if Glory is the mature and responsible 16-17 yr-old, I always read Deathbringer as a suave and enigmatic 19-20 yr-old trying to act older. It's still strictly speaking 'not OK' by our standards, but it's not so different from how age gap pairings used to be not so very long ago (and likely still are).
I think this highlights an interesting grey area in our conception of how age works. Say two teenagers start a relationship with a 2 year age gap. If you remove the context of semi-segregated yeargroups (eg in a school), there's nothing necessarily wrong with that relationship at, say, 15 and 17 (numerically speaking, anyway), same as there's nothing wrong with it at 21 and 23. But because our society demands we put the line between 'child' and 'adult' somewhere, things get awkward when the older of the pair turns 18 while the younger is still 16 (or will only turn 16 in the coming months). What do they do? Stay 'together'? Or temporarily split up until both are 'adult'?
While the official canon age gap of Glorybringer is not OK, as TJMA said, I think another angle worth considering is WHY age is interpreted the way it is, both in our world and in the world of the novels. We find it weird when a 13 yr-old is in a teenage romance with a 17 yr-old, but it's less socially unacceptable when there are 5-7 years separating a couple in their 40s/50s.
To re-itterate, where they are at the moment, Glorybringer's canon age gap is... not great, shall we say, but I just want to raise this question: once they've both reached, say, their first or second decade, will the age gap still be an issue by our standards or even their own?
Personaly, i fricking love glory bringer
I think Tui Really messed up on the GLORYBRINGER ship It's my second favorite ship But the giant Age gap was confusing because there's like a four year old who likes a 42 year old. Even Tui Told all of her fans that it was a complete accident that she wasn't trying to make a questionable age gap relationship.
if you want canon, here: in book four it is said that Nightwings aren't allowed to leave the island before the age of 10 and that "that assasin" is an expetion, meaning that he is cannonicly under 10.
I headcannon Deathbringer's age when i read so i can ship them. It is one of my favorite ships (Qinter being number 1) and im not about to let a lousy plot hole ruin that for me.
I honestly agree with most of the video, it actually helped me view things from the other perspective, however I do bealive there was a mixup beacuse according to the books it says that a dragon grows very rapidly until like 6 or 7 and that after that they grow very slowly, so i bealive that glory could be around 18 and deathbringer around 22 or 23 wich is still a kind of big age gape of four years but not so exaggerated , other than that i still agree with this video, great job ;D
I think GloryBringer is one of the most loved ship in Wings Of Fire. This is so amazing, thank you so much for all your videos. Also, when are you going to do the fan art video? Just wondering.
As fast as I possibly can! I'm hoping tomorrow but it might not be until later. There's so much editing!!!
Ok! Thanks for letting me know, I am really excited to see all the can art! (And hopefully, just maybe mine)
This is amazingly well said, I agree with you on every level, and I appreciate you for finally brining up this topic, and explaining the INTENDED perspective AND the CANON! This is so so so so good, and I think that now, this war between everyone who is fighting verbally on both sides, is now safe to say, it has ended. So, thanks to summarize this
:)
Hahaha, ended might be a bit strong of a description but I hope it helps.
:) your also pretty convincing, if everyone in that war thingy watched this, they'd probably agree. Its funny that this is one of the most fought about ships in the whole fandom (also Qinter...) I'd think something like, sunny flight maybe. I have a feeling that sunny flight is also pretty fought about a lot, but glory bringer is fought about WAAAAY more. But ummm thanks :)
When I first read Assassin, I noticed this. I believe that Tui did forget it. I notice lots of mistakes in books and this is one that we look at and we think, this isn’t OK, and it isn’t. I love how you said that both perspectives are correct. They are. You never try to put people down which is why I watch every new Video that comes out from you.
It's strange that he was sent to kill glory but now deathbringer would tear apart limb from limb any one who touches a single one of her scales
Thank you for addressing this controversy JMA. I for one have arguments for both sides but lean towards the more accepting side of the ship. Other than the age problem it is a great ship between two very well written characters. Good job on the video as always JMA and hopefully this will stop wars within the community because of an otherwise great ship.
I never read that extra book, so I was completely lost about the whole age gap until you mentioned that it was hinted at in in Assassin.
I was sitting here wondering why people were so upset about what was clearly an adorable combative romantic relationship.
I personally enjoyed the ship when I first read the series. Heck, when I first read the series, I never even read the Assassin winglet, so I was never in the loop about the controversy. Though, when I was able to finally read it and I took into account that the age gap was a mistake, that didn’t stop me from liking it. To me, it’s a funny ship of a dork who tries to make his partner happy, and the other who is trying very hard to hide she likes him. And that’s what I like a bout it: Deathbringer is a goofy dragon that cares for Glory, while Glory is effectively a tsundere, which I absolutely adore! Apologies if any of my information doesn’t have any canon basis, I guess this is what not rereading a series can to to you.
I'm fine with ships if they are canon I mainly hate fanon or non-canon ships due to that they sometimes are confusing.
It'd be really nice to have a definite age system for the dragons, cause even excluding this debacle there's many other dragons that do not behave their age.
Also, I feel the TV show would've been a great place to fix this age issue, but alas.
This is a very well done video. I like Glorybringer but can see its serious issues. Deathbringer's age is very inconsistent and his oldest age could be concerning in light of real world issues. However it is painful for me to see people being extremely toxic about the age gap. They are trying to fight against real issues, but catching well meaning people in the flames. That being said, it is important to acknowledge these issues. Yes these are dragons, but they are also anthropomorphised role models.
You mentioned in the video that all dragons get bigger as they age. However from what I’ve gathered it seems that’s only true for Nightwings, at least in terms of how they’re shown in the comics. Granted some things in the comics have changed for sake of clarity but I doubt they made any changes to the sizes for that reason.
I thought that was stated as a fact somewhere in the series, but I could be wrong.
just to again show how messy ages are in these books: in winter turning Winter observes that is Deathbringer is I think he said "around one year older than Glory" (sorry if the wording is off, I read the german version of the book). Since Glory is 7 in that book that would make him around 8 there, which does make sense to me.
Yes, it is only Winter's perception of his age, but he did not grow up under a rock like the dods, so I don't think he would be off by 4 years...
I agree that the age gap was most likely an accident, wof aging is very complex after all and it's not directly spelled out for us in the books so we just speculate a lot on how old and large these dragons are. Plus glory is definitely mentally mature enough to handle herself, she is leading two whole tribes on her own after all, if that's not proof enough for people then I dunno what is. Tui is human so of course she'll forget things, these books have many different details in them and it's reasonable to assume she will forget about some things, we can't blame her for what was an honest mistake. Yeah the cannon ages aren't good we can't just let that slide but at the same time if we put aside the ages I think the ship is honestly very good, both seem to really care for one another and have each other's back, so if you don't like the ship that's fine that's your choice but if you do then that's also fine and also your choice
yeah but we don’t talk about how clay is dating a student who is older then him?? Like, everyone makes a HUGE deal about like, a few years. I’ve always loved glory (my 2nd fave) and deathbringer (such a good dude, would be m friend :) ) I mean… I don’t get it- it’s a d r a g o n and it’s comparing them to *humans.* a completely different society. Also, they love each other so I fully support this ship. No changing my mind.
I hate the idea of outlawing the enjoyment of this ship and Im glad that was brought up. Because the reason ped* crap is wrong isn’t because the difference between the amount of time two have spent on the earth is too great, it’s because of what the age gap means for us as humans at that age with that difference is objectively disgustingly predatory: it’s because children can’t consent and don’t have the brain development to be able to have a chance to defend themselves to something they don’t want that is wrong- something that even many adults aren’t able to do properly, some of them because when they were vulnerable as children they weren’t protected. Glory is not vulnerable to death bringer in this way anymore than he is vulnerable to her in this way based on how they act in the books, he clearly isn’t mentally older than her, and we know this is true because tui very simply made a mistake. Additionally, you wouldn’t even realize how severe the gap is unless you’ve both read assassin and do the math unless you hear it from the fandom. However, these dragons are humanized enough that we can relate to them, so we must recognize that in human years with human minds, this is not ok. Personally, this is the original dod ship I find I care about most because it by far gets the most screen time, and in general it is my favorite wof ship, so I would very much like to make content around it that isn’t labeled.
I definitely agree with everything you said I never have ever been a big fan of the ship to begin with. Deathbringer just seemed to be there for glory’s love interest but I do enjoy he’s personality. I always felt like the dragonets didn’t need ships or love interest in there arcs but they all kinda got one really minus clay kinda. I was okay with Glorybringer before I read dragon slayer and assassin which is when I found about the age gap on what they had it wasn’t really pleasant to find out about. Even if it’s not real we still shouldn’t say it’s fine cause these things aren’t okay in real life at all there are kids who have these types of relationships with adults and think it’s fine when it isn’t. Which is why I don’t really like the ships as much anymore. And I do agree we shouldn’t bash or hate someone for liking the ship still they can like whatever ship they want to it’s not our job to enforce them to change ships but rather speak about the things that aren’t good about the ship and explain why the ships isn’t entirely fine. But I’m glad you did this video jade amazing as always!
I thought Glory was like 18 in human years, so if I was right about that (which I'm apparently not) I would honestly see no problem with Deathbringer being 27-28 since my parents have an 11 year age gap lol
(To be fair they met when my dad was in his 30s and my mum was in her 20s, so it's probably different than an 18 and 29 year old dating)
Maybe dragon rules are different tho idk
Edit : I want people to bare in mind that I wrote this at the start of the video after I discovered the dragons human ages
People seem to forget that Peril was an adult when she became *obsessed* with Clay, who was still a dragonet just like glory.
During the crown when aNe Charles sister was talking to the queen about their marriage she ranted about why they weren’t happy and said something along the lines of that Charles is already a lot older than Diana and Diana acts young for her age and Charles acts older for his age “making their age gap and age cavern” Charles was 32 when he married Diana and she was 20 a full 12 years younger than him. If glory is 17 and deathbringer is 27 then the age gap is still less then their by one two years NOTE : I am not condoning the fact she is a minor and he isn’t. But I think Diana and Charles realation ship gap is the exact same as glory and death-bringers when reversed. Glory acts older for her age and death bringer acts younger for his age making their age gape a bit smaller I do want to say tho that I don’t condone anything like that and the difference is that Diana wasn’t a minor. And the last thing I want any one to think is that a 27 year old dating a 16 or 17 year old is ok
Just 300 years ago people would marry young and with large age gaps to keep their race alive as their lifespan was so short. I can see how the same thing might be applied here but dragons still lived to be over 100. Another thing to consider is that this is a completely different universe and as the books illustrate maturity is reached a lot faster for this race. So it is Ok in their world but it would be very unusual in ours.
love how jma can talk about a controversy without making anybody mad
I am a believer that the author’ intent going into a story usually does not matter because it may come out differently and people are going to take away different things about their media. HOWEVER when it comes to a simple timeline mistake I think there’s no canon vs intent argument. It’s just a simple mistake (something many have pointing out she’s prone to. Like eye mistakes in warriors, Tsunami’s “blue” blood, etc.
I’m positive if Tui could go back and edit all the published books of Assassin, she would just go back and make it so this happened after the Brightest Night instead of years prior. Besides, since the Winglets aren’t fully required reading and don’t add too much to the story (except for Runaway imo) Deathbringer is still describe to be around the same age as the dragonets of destiny.
To me it seems like an open and shut case. But I know people differ on that.
Finally a Deathbringer video that isn’t demonizing the ship or flinging accusations of p’dophilia.
I know I’m late but even though it was probably a slip up, but the age gap is still canon so I still don’t support it and feel it’s on the same level of Anemone X Whirlpool
Glorybringer also brings forced peace between nightwings and rainwings because if Glory marries deathbringer deathbringer becomes king so both tribes would have one Royal which would force peace between them because the royals are married and they're from different tribes so that's my perspective and thoughts on glorybringer
When i first read the book i thought deathbringer was 8-9 years old, and it stayed that way in my head because he acts like it.
I don't agree with the cannon age (though deathbringers might've been accidental) i still like the ship