I HAVE THE SAME FRICKING QUESTION! I JUST WANT TO HAVE SOME FUN! AND THEN THEY BLAME THE VIDEO GAMES FOR TAKING AWAY THE YOUNG AUDIENCE. WHEN WILL THEIR AUDACITY END!
When I was a kid my dad took my brother and I to the local train show every year outside of Seattle. It was maybe $5 for most pre owned cars, $20-30 for locos. I went to the train show this year for old times sake with my younger cousin after we hadn't gone for probably ten years, and for those same pre owned cars it was over $25-30 and each loco was at least $100. The cheapest I saw was a boring grey Sealand container, just one, for $20! It's sad because model railroading is a good hobby but the price is killing it. For new kits though I think it's the same price as when I was younger. I've always been fascinated with Euro high speed rail and Kato's new TGV duplex set with ten cars is about $300. Really enjoy it but I wish it were easier to find new British and ICE sets.
We have two 3D printers and have just launches a small range of 009 rolling stock and loco bodies with more models planned in. OO , HO and N, so you are right there
The model train Hobby was always very expensive. They push their product as a Christmas ,birthday high end gift. Its said the Hobby is dying ,and that's been so since the 1950s ! No wonder, people who do buy them, lose interest, as they can't afford the accessories. This is an absurd world wide of phenomenon. Wonderful Marklin , so high. Price so high ,you dont make a profit because you SELL less. They should have loss leaders ,and older molds to get people in . Or if the trains are high, the accessories should be cheap....plus build pre made platforms. So many, single mothers etc ,dont have the ability to go make one ....in this day & age absurd!
Totally agree, Im 28 and 90% of my layout and locos are second hand, I simply cant afford to buy brand new directly from hornby Its simply too expensive.
We have far too many locos! But all but two of them were bought second hand, most for approx £20/25, like you I simple couldn't afford that many locos new. Mind you second hand prices have shot up
Every year there is a model railway exhibition right next to my house and the vast majority of them were bought from there, I often buy broken ones and fix them to save money but even the broken ones are becoming expensive. :(
I've noticed when I go into the local shops everyone, including myself, is at least 55 years old or older. And the one shop is really only interested in selling the most expensive models, so I almost never go there.
Absolutely agree. I'm 50, live in Australia and was looking to get back into the hobby - but the prices are outrageously high with a nasty markup even after the exchange rate conversation. The weather is fantastic here for garden railways, not to mention huge gardens but it's just too expensive - and I'm in a very well paid job.
Makes me cringe watching videos on RUclips and who ever it is says "I bought this loco for £100, which i think is great value" what? Really? And then they go and get the DCC chip at £30 or what ever they are! It's unreal, yes some of the newest stuff is super detailed and run beautifully but as you say, surely they don't need to be that expensive. This is also another reason why I refuse to sell any of my railway models because when I eventually have the room to make a decent layout I'll have the stuff ready and waiting because no way would I buy brand new starter kits or locos/rolling stock! Your right a rant is good 😂👍
It's all relative - £100+ for a super-detailed locomotive that looks AMAZING and has DCC fitted is a great bargain. BUT, not everyone wants that. To bring people into the hobby, the basic stuff is perfect - and giving people options for those are definitely what is needed. For me, there's some mid-tier stuff, locos that would've been £150-200 five years ago that are now sneaking down below £100 - I am happy with those. If they were available as their own range, that'd be so useful. And the Railroad locos would sell like hot cakes if they were priced accurately - not only will beginners/newbies to the hobby buy things like the £30 Class 33, but others will buy them to use as kitbashing parts or a nice project to add detailing parts, weathering etc.
True, the problem is that not many people have £500 and the real issue is not high prices where it might be justified but the lack of a cheaper option to bring people in
Definitely agree, cost is putting people off starting in the hobby - I always buy second hand now, locos for about £30 etc - something with some play value that doesn't really matter if it gets a bit damaged. But these new locos at £130+ is something I just cant justify buying at this time. Seeing as PS4 and XBoxes are all about the same price now . . .its easy to see which one parents are more likely to go for. When I had space for railways, I was always making stuff out of recycling as I just couldnt afford to buy model kits (some buildings are so expensive!)
Interesting reading the comments, I have built model railways for over 50 years and the price was always eye watering. I am also a mould toolmaker who has had the pleasure of making tools for Hornby and some of comments about tooling are somewhat inaccurate especially when it comes to CAD, CNC and price ... I remember when calculators came out, as soon as everyone was able to afford one the sums set at school became far more difficult, OK if you had a calculator, a bit unfair if you couldn't afford one. As with calculators CAD/CAM allows today's models to be far more detailed than yesteryear and to be honest the plastic parts are probably not that expensive, but putting them together and finishing them with high quality paintwork is expensive, modelers are very fussy and demand more, hence the price. Many years ago I bought Thomas and Percy for my kids, the mouldings were simple, they were moulded in the colour to be used, very little fitting or painting involved, this reflected in their reasonable price. To be fair to Hornby, I have seen the Lima based Deltic for sale at £60 new, whilst the Bachmann offering is twice the price, I have both and put next to each other the Bachmann version is far better. Hornby's railroad range using old or ex Lima moulds is a sensible way to help youngsters into the hobby. Prices are often half the premium version of the products and being less complicated tend to last well. The Bargain sections of most main online retailers offer some really good deals on new locomotives and rolling stock. "Budget Model Railways" does a good job, showing inexpensive ways to enter the hobby, maybe linking up with Hattons, Kernow and other retailers to promote the best new bargains is a good way forward, there is no need to pay the often quoted prices of over £150 for a locomotive, £50 - £60 allows a reasonable choice. Model railway shows, Ebay, car boot sales and the second hand section of retailers offer a great choice for used rolling stock for as little as a fiver. Model railway manufacturers are finding life tough at the moment, many have gone bust, it is only natural that they will try to capitalize on limited quantity high quality models, but please remember younger modelers are catered for by Hornby's Railroad range. There are plenty of card models for buildings available, modelling materials are not that expensive and PVA glue from a cheap store is as good as the expensive stuff. When I started my first railway, the choice was Wren, Trix or Triang Hornby, I bought Triang Hornby because that is what my pocket money would stretch to, even though I really wanted the Wren version Budget Model Railways are doing a great job showing that the hobby can be enjoyed on a limited budget, but we must remember we are not being fair to the industry by only quoting the price of top end models, after all my first car was a second hand Vauxhall Viva, because I couldn't afford a Jaguar XJS. Keep up the good work "Budget Model Railways" and it would be nice to think the manufacturers read these comments, because there is a lot they could learn.
Hi and many thanks for such a full and informed comment, I appreciate you taking the effort. We probably agree on most points, I would just like to see more of the range released and at a slightly lower price. I still struggle to see how the four wheeler coach can be £17 given that the wagon on the same chassis is only £10, I suspect the cheaper models are being used to subsidise the high end ones. My main concern is that the hobby seems to be only catering for the richer older enthusiast, even the model press seems that way, but as you say we are doing our best to solve that. We know that many people have taken up the hobby from seeing our videos and our layout at exhibitions, just imagine what could happen if the press and suppliers tried the same instead of just preaching to the converted. Thanks again for your comment and support
Hi, I agree with you £17 is too expensive for the 4 wheeled coach, I've just looked on Hattons website where it is listed at £13.88p new. I have one left over from my kids Thomas the Tank engine days, It consists of 3 main mouldings (Chassis, Body, Roof), plus window mouldings, 2 axles with wheels and a coupling at each end. The body is painted with lining pad printed. There is more work in producing a carriage than a wagon that consists of just two main mouldings. The factory probably charges around £5 at the gate, there is import duty, shipping and VAT to be added, raising the price to around £8, then the shop marks it up by between 30 and 60% to cover the cost of premises, staff, NIC contribution, pension contribution etc giving a price in the shop of around £12, so £13.88 is not too far wide of the mark. As you can see there is a big difference in price between the factory and the shop, for which Hornby is not responsible. The price could be reduced in a number of ways ... selling direct ... selling higher numbers or more competition between shops (Budget Model Railways could play a part here by advertising the shop offering the best deal) I could not find it on the internet cheaper than Hattons, who also have lots of second hand ones for sale at around £7. Even 50 or more years ago the railway modeler magazines were aimed at older people with a section for younger readers. Thomas the Tank has done more than anything else to bring the young into the hobby. It is time for the manufacturer to produce their own high quality children's videos featuring a new range of character engines in much the same way the Rev Awdry did with Thomas. Re-invention is the way to survive and prosper. In the meantime BMR can and does play its part by advising where viewers can get the best bargains.
I agree with your opinion 100%, we live in a culture where we (the consumer) think more expensive means better quality. This is achieved by the retail market industry feeding us advertising and marketing to convince us of this. I've been in manufacturing for decades and know once R&D and the tools is complete, its all pure profit after that. Many of the model train tooling dies are probably years old, and have long ago made their money back for the R&D and tooling. Take it there is a collector market that these model train manufacturers may be appealing to, but that is a also an expendable money market too. The model train market can be an expanding market if the manufacturers keep prices in the range of the beholder. Good rant...BTW. lets see if this comes to fruition? Probably not.. I enjoy your channel and glad to see the your channel is gaining viewers. Keep up the great work. Skol! Ron//
I'd also like to point out that the capabilities of CNC mills and EDM machines designed specifically for tool making has really sped up and automated processes. For example the surface finish a high-end CNC mill can achieve makes the need for manual polishing obsolete or highly reduced. Electrodes for EDM can be machined overnight in batches autonomously and to a high degree of accuracy. It's one reason there are fewer tool makers than there used to be.
I teach machine trades on the college level. I have over 55 years in the trabe and teaching,( I started in 1968). There is only one reason why... greed. These train parts can be manufactured at , and sold for 90% of the cost now charged.
As someone from a younger demographic (28 y/o), I look at these prices - for example, that train consist being north of £300 - and I just think, "christ, my car is worth less than that". And I instantly go back to cheaper hobbies. Younger people have less money and less space. And, as pointed out, a lot of the lower end models are easily in the range of £5-15 in terms of a sensible retail cost (depending on the item) - but they're simply not going for it. It's bad business. They seem to be set in a way of doing things, and don't look at the possibility of opening up the market by charging less, but getting more, because more people are buying (which also gives you larger scales of economy). A good example of counter-intuitive pricing being good is with PC games on Steam, where they make their most money during the twice annual sales - a time when games have huge discounts, anything from 30% to 90%. Although, coincidentally, I think the computerised train sim community suffers the same conservatively minded business model, too. They seem to overcharge for the sort of content other games can produce, even with the smaller potential market, which in my mind is definitely wasting the hobby's potential there, too.
You are absolutely right. Though the age issue is not limited to younger people, the pricing has stopped me taking the hobby up in my 30s,40s and now in my 50s. I had a setup when I was a child and have always wanted to do it again. As a keen modeller my young daughter also wanted us to set up a layout. But the prices are just insane and we never will at current prices. It's a shame and people with layouts are far rarer than when I was growing up as a result. I recall 2 of my teachers had model railways and about 5 of my mates did. Now I know only 1 person with one... which speaks volumes.
"Nellie", "Polly" and "Connie" 0-4-0s once retailed at 33 shillings and sixpence. Basically regarding Hornby it is greed, there's no two ways about it!
absolutely agree. not all of us have wages or pensions. it's just to expensive. then adults are wondering "why are young people not into the hobby these days?". I get 10 euros pocket money each week. How am I supposed to be able to buy a train that costs upwards of €100??? It's ridiculous
@@pedanticmongrel Yes, but then there are other expenses that come with the hobby (obviously I'm not suggesting that everything should be free, but it's not cheap either) My recent trip to the arts and craft shop: 2 sheets of mounting board -7 euros Paint brushes- 5 euros Brick paper - 7 euros Plumbers hemp - 5 euros Paint - 5 euros Nearly 30 euros gone for some materials for scratch building projects. As I said, I'm not expecting things to be free, but I dont want to spend 10 weeks modelling nothing saving up for a train as I'd have no funds for anything else! Anyway I feel that I'm complaining way too much here as this hobby is still very fun and rewarding!
@@jonathankelly7430 i get €10 each MONTH that makes it impossible for me to even buy a locomotive from märklin, i think all trains are overpriced. like €309 for ONE locomotive and €79 for ONE wagon. my dad dosn't let me buy anything over €50 so i just quitted with this hobby :(
I came into this hobby 3 years ago (I retire in a months time)I fancied doing a train layout for my own amusement. I looked in the window of our local shop and nearly had a heart attack at the prices. I binned the idea for some weeks and then I was delivering stuff to local charity shop and saw a Gt Western set for £15 along with another box of track and stuff for a £10. Bought it and my son sponsored my layout board and foam base. Thats how i got started, went on eBay and bought old buildings and accessories 2nd hand. Repainted all the engines and coaches to German colours and restencilled as DB German Federal Railways. My layout is an imaginery german town and I love it, It is now being redesigned incorporated a sawmill and some extra sidings. All. in DC because DCC is far too expensive and causes too much trouble
Well, I agree. :-) I find it's cheaper to build model railways, than it is to buy the trains. I do love the modelling side above all else, but I still haven't bought any trains for some years now. Hopefully the future will be different.
I've tried to make 3d printed ho scale model trains before, I started really simple with some basic 4 wheel chassis, a "universal chassis" that I could attach various 3d printed bodies to, and after some experimentation, I discovered that the biggest issue is the wheels, it is really hard to print wheels that are reasonably round, and the axles are really fragile, that said it was just a M3d I got from a christmas sale, not some extremely proffesional rig. Higher end machines might have better results.
Have a look on ebay. I've purchased bags of wheel sets (up to 100) from China, for scratchbuilding and kitbashing models. Quite cheap and not much cost to post. All metal wheels, metal axles, fine scale treads and flanges too. There is the odd dud which is buckled. Goes on display on the scrap pile at the workshops. The only thing I wish would be mentioned in ads is the axle length.
Mate I hate to break it to you, but in the states it's getting just as obnoxious price wise. You are absolutely right about the hobby getting overpriced. I just bought a Bachmann N Scale set for my son and it set me back nearly 120 dollars US. The nearly identical set 10 years ago was 54 dollars US. I thinks it's honestly gouging and greed, the industry knows kids are flocking to the latest XBOX or Playstation and are making hobbies in general a "niche" market with prices to match. It's a damn shame because so many fathers, older men and kids love to hand down this hobby and it's being priced by shills and "limited production". That's my rant.
This is pretty much the main reason I stopped railway modelling years ago. I can remember as a teenager in the early 2000s, being able to purchase a Hornby 14XX for £31.50. Okay the tooling was ex-Dapol and is now looking quite dated, but within a few years, locos of similar size were passing £40 at the cheapest retailers. Now I'm indulged in filmmaking full-time, I'm unable to spare anything even on a budget. Only Rapido's recent announcement of a Titfield Thunderbolt train pack will encourage me to invest, but even that will have to result in a few sacrifices. Thank you for covering this issue. Keep up the good work.
I think part of the problem is that not as many kids want to get into the hobby anyway nowadays, meaning that they need to make higher prices in order to make the same amount of money as they did years ago.
Interesting video.......I model in n gauge,and if you look at some of the new prices of models,such as a dcc 2 6 4 Pacific up around £270 your eyes begin to water!!.....I spent all of my working life in retail, and sometimes a company like Hornsby,that specialises in a specific range/ line can find,as popularity declines, that to remain afloat,pay shareholders, introduce new lines and stock,that ,after reducing every cost they can( redundancies etc) the only way to survive is to push up prices until sales start to slow ,then the price remains at that level.........as to the China end totally agree....a pair of tourmaline earrings in 9 carat gold were sent ,free delivery, to me just before Christmas for £4.99!!.....keep up the good work!
I'm Australian in the 50+ age group, it was always an expensive hobby here. I think that what has changed is people's expectations as to how well a locomotive should run, thanks to RUclips. Thus entry level locomotives by Hornby may look pretty, but are terrible to control (I'm looking at you Mr Pug and your 0-4-0 mates). This is ridiculous in 2017. Then you find that your upgrade locomotives are a hit and miss affair, and each miss being a $$$$ loss, and frustration. Sorry, i'm not in the hobby to increase frustration. One gets wary and keeps one's wallet in one's pocket. Where I think Rovex/Triang/Hornby shot themselves in the foot was not switching to HO. I understand they were unable to make their motors small enough to fit the smaller scale, but when that was no longer an issue, they should have swapped. Their production market is now curtailed to us British outline modlers, they have a limited, finite and dwindling world wide market. And since i'm on a rant, the price of rolling stock is prohibitive (flabbergastingly, eye wateringly, extortionate) But I guess this is the steady income stream that keeps the manufacturers afloat whilst they wait for the large bubbles of income that arise each time a new expensive tooling of locomotives hits the shelves. I wonder if going back to good basics would sustain the hobby, or if that simpler take on the hobby is a thing of a simpler past. Maybe my basics are too basic for tomorrow's modeler. Too many board execs and not enough enthusiasts at the control panel. They are neglecting to bring to market fun. Check out "Sort of Interesting Trains" on RUclips for his video "you spent how much" Makes me sad. Fun guy btw :)
I'm late to the table here but better late than never right. I've just recently been able to bring out of storage a Lima set my grandfather gave me when I was 5 (I'm early 40's). Here in Australia it's a ridiculous priced hobby to be considering. Surely they can re-release some models using old tooling at a cheaper price than the newer models, further more having big runs of a single model make it cheaper per piece, more people able to afford an item can increase the fan base, pick a couple models to start and they'll know if it works. Even I've seen the increase in 'limited runs' being used more and more to control the price versus effort/outlay, and certainly not just this hobby. The costs involved have me looking at well used second hand and how much I can make/repair myself with everyday items, this will give the manufacturers virtually no income from me, and everyone else in my shoes. Surely some of them see this happening.
I can agree with pretty much all your rant :) I started with hornby sets that were bought by my parents for Christmas, later in life I moved onto 16mm:1" scale, four times larger than hornby and running in the garden, the staggering thing that you pointed out about the G Scale been nearly the same price as one loco and four coaches is that a live steam (not electric) loco can be bought from suppliers such as accucraft or roundhouse engineering for a little over £500 for an entry level loco into proper live steam running trains. What's more the track the locos run on been 32mm gauge in my case is around £90 for 12yards of track. For around the same length of hornby track your looking at £40 only half the price not a quarter as you would expect if price was proportionate to size.......and don't even get me started on N gauge lol. My point is that there is a need for prices to reduce for OO to maintain been a hobby that entices people. I suspect and have seen over the last 5-10years the 16mm scale really becoming popular, and I expect that will continue, there are companies that supply coaches to 16mm scale size for £30-50 for a four wheel coach, a bogie coach been around £60-70. All food for thought. Not to.distract too much from OO or the work you two do making these videos, but you have a real valid point that really need to be addressed before the big players in the hobby bow out due to their customer base diminishing.
Can’t agree more with anything that is said throughout. I’m kicking the backside of 50, looking at this hobby to help my mental health after a stroke. Wish companies would see they’re missing a trick. Keep the good work and ideas going sirs loving these!!!.
Good luck with it. Model railways are very beneficial for mental health , I even made a video on this a little while back. Build cheap, buy second hand, build and run whatever you like and have fun!
Coming from an overseas South American modeler where anything and everything MUST be imported, I´ve known nothing but clear disadvantages of dedicating myself to this hobby. I walked into it for the first time when I lived in the US back during my teens and reassumed the hobby in 2011. Since reassuming, I had to buy everything from scratch. The local model hobby stores didn´t know a single thing about DCC, (which was the way I prefered to go this time). Only through some very small and limited retailers could I get my hands on such things locally, the rest was just importation (and the fees that come with it). Track, rolling stock and scenery was relatively easy to come by in the stores but accessibility didn´t necessarily translate to inesxpensive. Then it hit me to go check the youtube and the MRR channels and boy was I in for a treat! My most important overseas purchase (to me at least) would definitely be the precision tools (of which I purchased a very large selection through Micro Mark). These represent my possibility to tackle this hobby fairly on my own. In the end , places like the US and UK (to mention a few) do have a very strong MRR industry and that is shown through the travelling expos and shows, not to mention the countless MRR associations (many usually close to peoples homes where they can sort out all kinds of doubts and issues with fellow members in no time). Luxury i can't afford in these latitudes because of lack of such associations. I believe that 3D printing has come for many modelers as a real solution to their problems and certain prototypical etching that just can't be bought through the established market. New techniques of modeling shared unselfishly through extensive and dedicated youtube tutorials paved the way instead of having to buy specific MRR magazines in the past that might not have even addressed the issue or solved ones specific problem that today is solved by posting a message to the generous youtube modeler in his channel (and receiving a reply!). Bottom line, costs are relative to the effort we (as a group are willing to pay) and in exchange go about the extra mile as to come up with convincing and innovative solutions that are downright inexpensive, ingenious and can help make you build prototypical representations regardless of your geographic location. In my case all my purchased scenery kits do need a certain degree of kitbashing, not to mention that all need new signs because they all come in English. I believe we are in an era as to not sacrifice our hard earned money on the thing we can model for ourselves convincingly and purchase those we simply can´t. My two cents.....
Hoping people obtain a little more insight regarding others experience rather than addressing the length, style, grammar, etc. It’s sad that people will still criticize ANY aspect of a post and not the content.
I used to be a member of a model railway club,but left because I was starting to loose interest. I’m thinking about coming back to the hobby but the prices are just too high and can’t justify paying the price of the newer models.
You are correct about everything you said here. In 1969 when I first started collecting "N" Scale trains, you could get an engine for about $10.00 and a freight car costs about $2.00. TODAY, an engine costs about $150.00 and any kind of "reasonable" freight car costs about $20 or $30 or $40.00 and up! As you pointed out, they are all made in China and they probably costs no more than a dollar or two to make. It is a big rip off. Just wanted to point out that here in the states, it is the same thing. Train cars are very expensive. Also, those fancy German plastic building kits are extremely expensive. An average building kit costs about $50.00 (for a small one) to over $175.00 for something bigger. Recently, I noticed a building kit for a European style Monastery building kit. It is a very large kit and I was curious as to what it costs. I found it and the price was almost $500.00 for it! I had no intention of buying it anyway but was curious as to what it cost. I find that just about every single time I see a kit, it costs about $50.00 or $100.00 per kit but if I scratch build it myself, MY cost is about $5.00 or so. The hobby is getting outrageously expensive. -Regards, Ron
Insane prices, I find train videos relaxing, but I don't want one, I'm just here watching yours and other channels for the dioramas! Hornby are cheeky effers! Perhaps if they were very cheap I would get one tbf, but I've always been aware of the prices in the back of my mind after being into dollhouse minatures years ago! Lol I'm a 25 year old female hahaha I am the opposite demographic XD
A well presented fair and informative video. My dear wife bought me a train set for Xmas which really was a pleasant surprise. The next suprise though was not at all. I really was staggered at the prices of additional trains and carriages and this will now limit how far I go with the hobby. I am learning how to go cheaper and see that buying brand new will be a very limited option. Thanks for the video really well explained.
I agree. I've recently got back into the hobby in my early 40's and if it wasn't for ebay and hunting around for ex-collector stock I would't have bothered. I don't understand why Hornby and the rest are so expensive, they are shooting themselves in the foot really. I never buy from a Hornby shop, the prices are ridiculous.
When Irv Athearn first started producing his ho scale f7, the price was $7.00 usd. Car kits were priced at $2.50 and $3.50 usd. well into the 1960's. The prices today are insane and the product isn't 3ven produced domestically.
But in 60's I earned maybe $2/hr two years ago when I retired $42/hr so that engine at 3 1/2 hrs wage $100 + and not great quality compared to today, all relative
In the UK wages have not gone up for ten years yet prices have gone up 20%+ , I'm earning exactly the same as I did in 2007 yet everything I buy has gone up, some model railway items have gone up nearly 40% in that time.
Wonderful analytical video. 8-) You're doing great work for promoting a healthier approach to the entire hobby. Keep up the good work ! As someone looking into getting into the hobby (but only slightly, I prefer home-made scenery/terrain, only need the rails, locos and some cars), I've always been dismayed at all the absurd prices. Even a decade and more ago, the situation was exactly the same, sadly. An acquaintance of mine even wrote a series of blog articles, at that time, on how he's become very passionate at promoting a home-brewn approach to the hobby, precisely because of all the constant overpricing. When even tiny accessories for typical H0 railways cost some 20-30 euros or pounds on average, and even the cheapest locomotives are barely under 50 euros or pounds, that's outright shameful. I don't mind overpriced high-end stuff for the details-obsessed pros, but not even starter kits have decent pricing these days.
You are absolutely right. I used to do model trains with my dad and whilst he funded it it was fine, I moved out got my own job etc but can't imagine starting out on my own for my own models and trains, I just don't have the disposable income!
That's what a lot of people are telling us, especially your age group which in My view is the market they should be aiming at. Mind you take a look at second hand it brings the prices right down.
Harley Davidson here in the states is going through the exact same thing. Their buyers keep getting older and older (for the same basic reasons) and while they are doing OK now they can already see the writimg on the wall. Harley is desperately marketing toward younger people now. Hopefully model rr companies will get the same clue at some point.
Harley Davidson has ran for years on the "outlaw biker" image and history of there bikes. Since the 80's there been behind in tech in other bikes, often there keep stuck in the past by said history.
Nearly three years late to the game here, but since lockdown and getting back into the model trains I've come across your channel and it is genius. Scatter on a corduroy swatch for a veg patch, roofing felt for ballast, black sandpaper and strips of a white sticky label for road. We sold off the large majority of our locos, rolling stock, and buildings two years ago, it had just been sitting boxed away for a few years before that, and kept what is still a good amount for when the nephews/grandkids are old enough. As I've said to my Dad many times in the last two or three months, you really wouldn't want to be starting out or getting into trains in 2020 with the price of it these days.
What a well thought out video. As said elsewhere I model in N Gauge for space reasons, and fined the costs somewhat expensive in today's market. When I started the models were very limited and basic, yet reasonably priced. If you acquired models on ebay you were buying from sellers that were selling dads old models, and you bid accordingly. Now ebay are mostly shops with there buy it now prices, I have even seen second hand priced as new. Even the swap meets are asking high prices for tat. I envisage a day when the model rail industry will price itself out of business unless it wakes up to reality. Keep up the good work guy's
Great comments great vid ...the only thing I would say there are lot of people who actually buy at inflated prices... myself I try all avenues to buy stuff occasionally a new one ....yep I’m one of the oldies nearly 70 ....but came to hobby late and although retired still do not have a huge disposable income but you are right we need new blood in the hobby .....it was a good rant ....regards Fred
That's the problem , the price of any product is what people are prepared to pay, not its actual cost. All the time three are enough people prepared to pay high prices( just 500 on limited runs) then the prices will remain high.
It’s basically the same here in the US especially with Lionel O gauge starter sets now costing anywhere between $175-$300 USD. My first starter set from them was $190 USD which was several years before Lionel added LionChief BlueTooth R/C technology in recent years. I do agree that this hobby is aimed towards the older/elderly demographic and less on kids. This is also why they make mostly 1950’s era buildings and trains more, but have some attention to modern era stuff. I just hope one day all of the world’s model train companies get to know the younger demographic better and start catering to them more since this isn’t the 50s anymore and the previous generations aren’t around any longer. This is also why the younger generations are mostly into gaming and apps more. I remember when Leokimvideo said that in a video he filmed at a model railway exhibition a year ago. He also explained about how train shows/exhibitions drive kids away from the hobby instead of towards it. I’m not sure if you saw that or not, but I just think kids who are interested in trains are going to spend more time on train simulators instead of building actual layouts. The train simulator downloable content can either be free or be payware which are far cheaper than actual models since I bought some myself. Once someone buys a simulator game, their virtual train collection would grow larger in less time than it would take for someone who collects actual model trains. I can see why the gaming industry is doing well when it comes to virtual trains.
My son Doug is always very popular when we exhibit because he is usually the only exhibitor under 50. The hobby esp in the UK is obsessed with the steam era which holds limited interest to younger modellers or even late entries like me who have no memory of steam, so I agree with you.
Some well made points. I'm considering coming back into the hobby modelling 0-16.5, but I am thinking twice because I'm gobsmacked at the prices. My interest was re-kindled when I had a recent clear out and found some old OO9 stock that I sold on eBay to help fund another hobby. I thought I'd be lucky to get more than £100 for the 30+ year old locos and wagons, most of which had faults. I described them honestly and was amazed when I cleared £400 for them! That should have rung some warning bells as to new prices, because high new prices drive up 2nd hand prices. So am I coming back into the hobby? Still haven't decided. And the *only* reason I'm undecided is cost.
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!!! I have been saying this for ages to any of friends who will listen, the cost is simply absurd, its putting me off getting into the hobby and I'm 26! Yes I have a 40 hour week in my job but they need to re-examine their pricing and as soon as possible, Hornby need to sort themselves out, the prices they expect for starter locos kit and everything is mental, very well explained video, you have yourself a new subscriber my good sir!
This is litteraly the only reason i haven't been able to get into model railroads. I don't want to spends 100-200 euro's on a loop with a single switch that'll likely only be entertaining for 3 hours. This is the reason i have gotten into Bluebrixx: a lego alternative that sells pretty cheap, high quality loco's and wagons.
if i had children and wanted them to get into model railroading i would rather teach them to build models buildings tracks electronics etc themselves. it cuts costs and keeps them usefully occupied while they learn. because just running a train on a circle will make them bored quickly. rather go out into nature and collect stuff which you can use nicely on your layout. make buildings yourself from cardboard paint them weather them etc... for my first layout i used big matchboxes as tunnels on a table. i was very young and just happy to use all kinds if stuff which was not made for model trains to enhance it. :-) those were matchboxes with mountains printed on them. it was enough to get the mind of a young kid engaged for a while...
just like in America, auto manufacturers are charging outrageous prices for autos/trucks..for instance, $72k for fully loaded ford truck..not many will buy because they don't have the money and do not have the jobs..and companies will end up like sears, penneys, and macys going broke or maybe go to a mexico for cheaper labor but will still have to pay higher import prices back into the US..everything is a chain reaction and model railroad is not different..common people will not buy because of the high price..
"$72k for fully loaded ford truck" Does it have to be fully loaded? I agree that prices are ridiculous to what you're getting but a $72k truck isn't exactly a mass-market model. At that price point you're starting to get into premium luxury and/or high-performance models. Besides, a Raptor is the _last_ thing you want for a work truck, the suspension is just too soft for hauling.
There's something unique about trains, big or small, in the UK where there is a perfect storm of middle class disposible income and manufacturer greed. My son has enough Tomy train track, engines and rolling stock to fill the entire downstairs of our house, all bought for pennies from eBay. Even the new stuff, in toy shops, costs barely a tenner per loco, with detail levels approaching that of Hornby. And the reason it's cheap? Because it's a child's toy. Suddenly, when it's grown up men buying, essentially, the same products (molded plastic around a firm chassis and electric motor) - it can cost literally 100 times as much. It's like there's a pride in exclusivity, fuelled in a bit of an echo chamber between the richest buyers and the greediest manufacturers. You're quite right about some of those molds being around for decades - I have dozens of those 4 wheeled carriages, most of which I acquired secondhand in the early 1980s. Some are so old they have "Triang Hornby" embossed on them - placing them in the very early 1970s. All of the other of those entry models date at least to the 1980s. As you say, there is no way all the costs haven't been recouped yet. This is one of the reasons why for the last decade, I have modelled exclusively in the digital arena. If I want 5 Big Boys pulling quarter mile trains on my 100 mile layout, I don't have to pay a penny more than if it's a GWR pannier and autocoach on 3 foot of line in a loft.
After your unfortunate 3 in 1 and WD40 utube, I have to say I totally agree with you on this one. I think all your arguments hold water and are clearly and well made. I am utterly amazed that nobody has tried to capitalise any more than they seem to have, on what must be a good market out there. My children had model trains and now my grand children are ready for them. Every year I go to the Warley annual show and it is absolutely crowded out for two days. Never mind all the individuals and clubs all over the UK and abroad, the attendance at the Warley show would in itself keep the industry in mink coats. But a message to Bachmann, Hornby, et al, although I can afford it, I don't buy anything unless it is on offer or is second hand. Precisely for the reasons concerning the lack of fairness to others who should be encouraged to take up the hobby, but also because it simply smacks of taking the piss!
am an old train enthusiast myself, when I was part of train spotter club in the uk in my teens, I had an old hornby set long time ago, Rocky Mountain Express, came complete with layout already pre=assembled, good set, and looking at prices today, really do agree that prices shouldnt be so expensive for young ones coming into the hobby.....and for people like myself and older generation, that the cost of the sets and or locomotives and coaches, shouldn't be so expensive....I would like to start another set from scratch, but the cost, is one thing that is putting me off starting, Might just start with a set and totally familar with here in Australia....and start up from there, and most probably extend when I get the place of my own, but would have the sets in storage...until that day happens.
Some of the models shown I remember from the 1970's. The costs of them would be well and truly paid for by now. I model Victorian Railways Australia - blue and gold diesel era. I haven't purchased a new loco in 10 years. The ones I have: VR Bo Bo branchliners I bought for about AUSD $300 each, a decade ago, which were stored and just got out last year and now running on a layout. I accept the price for the models as the market for my interest is very small, and up to 10 years ago were only available in brass - at over $1000 AUS each. They are well detailed with lots of separate parts: handrails, chains, brake cylinders. The recent Chinese production of Victorian Railways has resulted in almost every wagon and carriage now available 'ready to run'. A four wheel wagon is about AUSD40. I have bought a few and the detail on the models is superb: all chassis running and braking gear, see through mesh shunter's steps. It would be interesting to know what sort of effect this production has had on the extensive cottage industry of model kits, which up to recently was just about the only way to model my home state's railways. I have scratch built a few wagons, which is a very cheap way make up a train - but time consuming.
My point of view as a miniature model painter is to get crafty. I am very lucky to have artistic skills. My wife is forever mocking me when I see an ideal stone or twig or a piece of discarded rubbish I can immediately imagine changing, painting cutting or glueing to create something great and custom. Scale measurement can be tricky but the effect is amazing. This is done very cheaply and I'd be spared the funny looks in the park when I'm pocketing twigs or scooping a cup full of soil from the garden to use in the layout if prices were lower for premade scenery and loco's. Being 34 and in a decent job I still refuse to pay full whack and repair and upgrade my trains myself 2nd hand. Inreally advise everyone to look around at what we have available to use, thus channel is brilliant. Goood example was the cardboard platforms, free materials and a great finish. The hobby may die out but hopefully this channel keeps on going.
Hi David, sounds like me lol. I found some grit in an aquarium shop to use as ballast at about 10% of the cost of model railway ballast. With the squeeze on the cost of living I suspect our approach will increase in popularity
I have a similar problem, albeit not with train sets. I'm into Tamiya Mini 4wd. Depending on where you shop, the cars can cost between £5-10 and again for upgrade parts any where other than direct from japan can be upto double the cost. But that's not the big problem. The issue is the track cost, sure you can always build your own if you have both the skills and tools, but to get an entry track (simple 2 lane oval) can cost around £150-£200 whilst the same simple oval 3 lane can cost around £350-£450. Extra track sections can cost anywhere between £100-£250. This is factoring in the shipping and import/customs/tax. In japan and america, they retail at about £150 for the 3 lane, £50 for the 2 lane. We have over the top costs for everything, it's hard to get into any kind of hobby other than gaming (pc/console) without stupidly excessive costs. I miss living over seas down in SE Asia. I have a saying "The UK is where 'fun' comes to die.".
4 years later and man things seemed to have gotten worse. When I first moved into my house some 20+ years ago, I bought a cheap Bachmann set at Toys'r'us as something to go around the Christmas tree one year, it had a diesel engine, a number of rolling stock pieces, an oval of 'easy snap' track (whatever it was called at the time) and a controller to run it, I think I paid $40, now I don't remember the exact set but adjusting for inflation since then it should cost $65. Now I get it things end up costing more, but looking at sets similar to what I got now sold at Bachmann they're over $300 each, or more than 5x the cost of inflation. Now I get it inflation is a poor predictor of price, and direct from Bachmann is not going to be any sale price but damn if even the "entry" is out of touch with reality. And these are not high quality sets either, wheels are plastic on the rolling stock, everything is molded plastic (hell looks identical to what I still have!) and the trains are most definitely the lowest quality diesel trains they make, so yeah the pricing is just unbelievable. Fast forward to today and a friend was giving away all his HO scale trains, and I managed to snatch them up for my kid. It had a number of diesels of varying quality (mostly on the lower end, but 1 nice one with metal railing,etc) and figure "yanno he likes steam engines, a cheap steam engine would be good" look online what a new one costs (no DCC either) and holy crap! NOPE! So yeah I'll be keeping an eye out on garage sales and so forth, just can't justify doing much in this hobby the way things are.
Morning Mike and Doug as a subscriber to budget model railways but also a beginner to the hobby I do watch your videos quite a lot and I listen to your advice in regards to going to my local model railway shop and purchasing pre owned which I’m quite happy to do ? So yesterday of I go into bolton hoping to buy some hornby track , Peco points, red brick paper, blue brick , and grey slate as I want to do some scratch built small buildings , and was prepared to buy all they had , when i got there I was told sorry Paul the pre owned is not as easily available as it use to be as people are not bringing into the modelling shops any more there putting it straight onto eBay because they know they can fetch a much higher price which did rather disappoint me because as we all know some of the prices on eBay are ridiculous I’ve even checked out quite a few Lima industrial shunters which I know you are quite a fan and even these have gone up in price , I’m keen to start my industrial shunting layout I’ve even started to put together the tools I will need to do it I’ve even been to screw fix and bought the PVA but Mike I refuse to go out there and buy all new locomotives , track and points and be throwing money at it 🤔 So it looks like I will have to keep going to the toy and model railway fairs up here in the north west and see what I can pick up , I was prepared to buy a full layout at the right price but I just can’t see this happening 🤷🏻but I will continue to watch budget model railways which is my favourite Chanel Paul No 1 fan 👍
Second hand prices both retail and online have gone bonkers, and much of it is rubbish. Classic Rail online is worth a look. To be honest the reason I have taken up freelance N gauge is the cheap Kato Pocket line range. Utterly reliable new locos for less than half the price of second hand UK outline. Peco wagon kits for £9 each and the excellent Gaugemaster/kestrel buildings cheap even new. I've even been picking up second hand Kato Japanese outline locos for £50, half the UK outline prices. If I was starting now I simply could not afford to do UK outline OO. The Piko HO Hobby range is also much better quality and cheaper than the equivalent Hornby, and they do a good range of buildings at sensible prices. HO second hand prices are much cheaper than OO as well.
Couldn't agree more. Also it should be said that the quality of the items has not improved as quickly as the price has risen. Recently bought a brand new Hornby set. quality of all the parts was well below par for the price. If you have a look inside the flagship DCC controller you will see the components are the cheapest on the market. That together with low quality plastic mouldings that where already worn inside the box really isn't good enough. I work in the electronics industry and have to say if I put out work of such low quality it would be returned. I was forced to open the the DCC controller up to fix the keypad straight out of the box brand new. Was very sad to see how shoddy the product was, Hornby isn't what it used to be. Clearly no quality control in their screw driver plants and no pride in the products. How else do they explain an expensive DCC controller getting past QC with keys not working ? Wouldn't happen where I work.
Totally agree with ALL your comments in the video. People have commented here that ebay is a cheap way of getting into the hobby- I would have agreed 6 years ago (when I first got into the hobby) but not now! What new people to the hobby don't seem to realise is that they are artificially forcing the prices up- not just on ebay. I bought a Pullman Observation Coach in 'like new' condition for £38 only 3 years ago on there, I've just seen one sell for £91!!! I do believe that people bid stupidly and if they held back and 'await the next one' prices will fall back to what they once were. The reason I said ‘not just on ebay’ is that people seem to forget that ebay is available to everyone 24/7 and when I attended a local Model Rail Exhibition recently the prices had gone through the roof there too- a seller behind a stall said “that’s what they’re goin for on ebay- so I match the price!” (FYI- Model Fairs used to offer discounted products at ‘trade stalls’). Hornby are also watching ebay (of course) and are responding by re-releasing those popular items at an inflated cost- doh! "Supply and demand" as they say.
You raise some valid points about the cost of new model railway equipment and the detrimental effect it must be having attracting new younger people into the hobby. I'd like to add a point about buying second hand, especially on auction sites - this has become expensive too, as prices have become inflated by "collectors" who are mostly older people, usually men, who collect not because second-hand plastic toys really have any intrinsic collectable value but because they remind them, nostalgically, of their childhood (this is certainly the case for me). But what us older enthusiasts tend to forget is that as our generation diminishes and eventually disappears, the market for second-hand plastic trains will also diminish and prices will hopefully return to a more realistic level because there will be fewer nostalgic, relatively wealthy retired old men to pay inflated prices for them.
You hear often that here in the states “if this item was not made in China the cost would go up a great deal for the consumer if made in the USA”. So that tells me that this H O scale ______________. (Insert brand name here) engine that currently costs retail $299.99 made in China would go to $499.00?? $399.00?? This little plastic bodied train with plastic parts for detail, a running electric engine, a tiny light or 2 and a tiny amount of metal could cost me as much as $500.00 pre tax, shipping, handling... ? I just do not buy that concept... I think it’s a little known secret that suppliers use to justify their prices. They are SAVING us money to have it made in China... um okay.. I would love to know how much money it takes to ship thousands of items from that China factory to the port, man power to load it on a cargo ship, shipping cost for that huge cargo ship to travel 100’s - 1000’s (?) of miles, man power to offload on arrival, any and all import fees and shipping to that local hobby store. Why? just to compare to having it made in the USA cutting out all that shipping costs across the oceans but made in a plant then shipped out to the retailers. I am not saying one is cheaper than the other because I honestly do not know. However, there is a lot of steps, time, people, fees involved in my first scenario. My best comparison is to go buy that model car for $15 - $25. The car once built has opening doors, hood, detailed engine, rubber tires, chrome plastic rims - parts, clear windows, detailed underneath, detailed interior, colored headlights and tail lights, some have decals etc.. then let’s buy that H O scale train building that’s a complete shell, a few details for the exterior and ummm hmm maybe a roof texture (?) for $65.00... wait what!?!? That doesn’t make much sense does it? I agree with everything you are saying and it boils down to the suppliers are killing the hobby. How they can’t see this I am not sure but it’s happening before our very eyes. Everything is going up in price for this reason or that reason except people’s income. That ends very badly if it continues. Any hobby for the most part is a luxury in life. The first thing to go in life when money gets tight is luxuries. Suppliers needs to realize this to save themselves and the hobby. The hobby could very well carry on for decades without suppliers. The market is full of train items and there are always estates, attic finds, long time collectors pass away daily etc.. eBay stays full of 1000’s upon 1000’s of items new and old. With that said the hobby may not need suppliers to survive so maybe they need to realize that too. When all of the big names go down some smaller name may rise that offers more fair pricing. Who knows but many scenarios could emerge when you think about it.
as an importer I can tell you that first Chinese factories work on much lower margins than USA / Europe do. Shipping costs run about 10 -15 % depending on duties. a 20 foot container cots $ 1200 to California or $ 2,000 to chicago , nyc. it can fits easily 10,000 box cars . .. Chinese labour is 1/30th USA unskilled costs.
I totally agree with you. I live in Denmark where model railways is even more pricier than in the UK, and as a guy aged 22, and this high pricing of locos and wagons is resulting in me (and other Danes) thinking of leaving this hobby. An example from Denmark is Heljan's model of the DSB MX loco, which they are now making a fourth run of, and they are still selling them at a high price (2399 DKK or 289 pounds for the cheapest model and it is with both DCC and sounds) as the last couple runs. When I bought my model or it (third run), it was when a retailer had bought all of the unsold models from Heljan at slightly more than the manufacturing cost and then sold them at 875 DKK or 105 pounds for a base model (DC).
I‘d suggest you to try out the german manufacturer PIKO. Sometimes they have very high quality stuff for an affordable price. In their stores they sometimes sell for example locos in a damaged box, so it’s 30€ cheaper but still brand new and functional ;)
I have a question : Is it me or have Hornby products got really cheap looking and seem really rather flimsy...As a kid I'm sure Hornby was way better made....
I would buy a Deltic for 50£, even if it's not the era i'm interested. I really like this video, i totally agree! Some coaches are just made of plastic and the prices are ridiculous. Even my father was shocked when hearing that the coaches and locos are not even metal, too expensive! (he remembers the old Marklin trains, which were metal) Living in Italy makes things a bit more expensive, so i always look for second hand like at Hatton's, which is where i go the most, or Ebay. I got plenty of locos and coaches there at half the prices or less!
As a 22 year old just barely getting into this hobby, all of my Locos are in the sub $60USD range (45 ish GBP), and what little rolling stock I have are all pre-owned or dirt cheap wagons. The prices are absolutely absurd, and I sincerely hope these companies get smacked real dang hard on that bottom line real dang soon so they snap out of this absurd price model.
I totally agree with your opinion . I got back into the hobby in 2008 , after retirement and limit myself to second hand items . Being of engineering background I repair most of what I buy , because of cost . Commerce is the God of society and companies do not care much about children , as they target parents and grandparents . That is where they sell there products as children do not usually have income . Will it ever change ? I do hope so , because as a child in England in the 50's , there were things like this beyond my reach , and my parents reach . My latest beef is about shipping costs that have become out of control , and stop me purchasing from the U.K. now . Only recently has this happened and the excuse seems to be covid , the now universal excuse for all price increases .Keep up the good work and keep safe . Chris J .
Sadly we also have European suppliers claiming various Brexit costs! And Hornby have put some prices up by 30%+ in two years for no obvious reasons when inflation is 2-4%
I think the problem is two fold. A massively overcomplicated product range coupled with a small, saturated market. Years ago when the range was smaller, Hornby would have been able to sell larger numbers of the same model. This meant larger batches and a lower cost per model. Fast forward to now and the range is too big for the size of the market. Each item is being made in much smaller batches pushing up production costs and the price per unit. This, coupled with a massive used market restricting demand for new stock from casual hobbyists, is forcing Hornby and other manufacturers into a downward spiral of rising prices to counter a shrinking customer base. To solve the problem, it could be argued that Hornby need to just shrink the range down to the size it was in the mid 80's, increase production of those core models to bring down the price and this would expand the market. It might do, except that I think Hornby would need to change the range annually to ensure the market for particular lines doesn't become saturated. It may also lose its wealthy enthusiast market, which currently seems to be the company's target market. To counter this, Hornby could produce small limited edition batches for pre order for enthusiasts. This essentially ensures there is an affordable mass market range and an expensive, collectors range, keeping everyone happy. As for the 0-4-0 and four wheel carriage prices. I'm pretty sure the prices are inflated to keep them in line with Hornby's overall pricing strategy. Sell those too cheap and it undermines the brand and the price being asked for the more expensive models. Just to say that all this is just my own personal opinion on what is going on.
Budget Model Railways If Hornby reintroduced the Tri-ang brand or launched a new brand for its budget ranges, it could do that without if having such a large effect on the prestige of the Hornby brand. They are highly unlikely to do that though as it would involve the cost of launching a new brand, selling existing models for a lower price and then hoping that translates to higher sales. It's a risk and Hornby's track record is that it is highly risk adverse.
Sadly I agree, it's a shame as looking at our response there are a lot if people who would buy a budget range. They already have all the mounds and tooling so,it wouldn't cost them much
Budget Model Railways Sadly I think we are more likely to see a chinese company doing this rather than Hornby. Then we will all watch as Hornby slowly goes out of business as they lose market share.
The only Chinese company I know of only makes high end locos, which while much cheaper than Hornby and Bachmann are still expensive. What annoys me is that Hornby have the old tooling and mounds and could do this Tommorow with little cost or risk.
Used to always buy Model Stuff New. Prices Rose. Now I buy half my stuff Second Hand. Bought a brand new Bachmann coach the other day £39.99. A week later, at a model railway show, old Lima Class 20 Br Green, £35. Runs Great. What's that say about prices?
Right ON. I have been sidelined for 14 yrs. Pulled out my stock and started back up. If I didn't have the loco's, cars, and DCC already in place, it would be impossible financially. Prices are crazy. 10 loco's, a 100 cars, DCC system and you have $5,000 spent.
The model shop in Eastbourne is a brilliant place, I spent hours in there looking at all the second-hand models. I stopped buying new 00-gauge models to keep (By the odd few for filming or reviews then sell them on) I found Hornby Dublo which even though if your not careful it can be expensive, I have picked up some good deals on ebay and know have a sizable collection for the price of two or three new Hornby locos over the last decade.
The technical side wasn't all that to be honest but with proper maintenance and attention its still fine. I run locomotives in N scale that are older than I am.
I started off buying wagons and locos etc a few years before building a layout but nearly all my items were bought in sales or second hand or even damaged and they are euro trains made in the e.u the prices are quite expensive but the quality is very good. Some of the Hornby tooling is over 40 years old ... Hornby still sell some of these items today...it's just pure greed...
I remember for years asking for a train set but we didn’t have any room in our old early 80’s semi d. Got one at 13 but because of school its taken me 4 years to actually have the time and motivation. Doing LCA course and doing the groundwork of masking and painting trackbed,relaying the track, wiring, ballasting with sheet for my practical achievement task. I have also gone into wristwatch collecting
I’m 16 years old and living in Australia, so seeing those 4 wheel coaches at $30+ each is quite depressing, especially when I’m beginning a fairly large layout that is going to take a fair bit of cash out of my pocket for track, scenery and rolling stock in particular
I have a union Pacific 416 diesel model, its old, but full metal chassis, some nutcase would probably ask 100 dollars for it, I would ask Mabey 12 dollors (It was my dad's, I'm not selling it)
High prices have a really big impact on what hobbies the young people choose to go into, there are also other factors too. In highschool I pursued model planes as a hobby because my family gave me lots of model air crafts, my friends were also interested in aircrafts, and the price was pretty reasonable. The air crafts were also very easy to buy in my community. Model railroads were not offered in the community.
I got out of the model Railway world and purchasing Items from hornby and other producers. The reason i did this was that it is much cheaper to make your own models. If you are going to get into model railways Learn to build your own. Cheaper and you learn a new skill. me and my dad used to club together to buy a loco now and then... But the prices were around 60 - 100 pounds for a Bachman locomotive. Now those same locomotives are produced in China for alot cheaper and the prices are around the 100 - 130 mark. (reduced costs but increased shipping? ) The biggest problem now is that most of their stock sits on a shelf somewhere for 10 years before someone buys it. Basically they model railway business took off again and they reverted back into the 1970's pricing game that killed the industry of model railways back then. The computer industry did the same thing, they were expensive. Now you can build a PC for less than you can buy some train sets for. It is completely insane.
Trust me, it's expensive in the US too. Spent $500 for a starter digital set for newphew. Took him back to store yesterday, some figurines, a pack of two trees and one O-guage flat-car was $150. Low volumn and long time sitting on shelves may factor in here. I rememeber in college they said groceries have a very low markup as it moves so quickly, while clothing doubled every time it changed hands because it took a relatively long time to sell it. Maybe the jacked-up price is to give retailers a goodly profit assuming low-volume. It's VERY HARD to get kids off computers these days. Watch videos on Roblox and realize that that overly-simplisitc very bad game that makes Space Invaders look sophisticated TODAY is huge with kids. And it's horrible. But it's on the computer.
Market Secret Why Are Model Railways So Expensive? Retail markup and tax add 200 -300% to the price that the shops buy from the suppliers. Also, Returns and repairs are to costly in the modern market. It is far cheaper in product and employee time, just to send out a brand new product as a replacement.
I agree I was just looking for a railway foot bridge and one (the one I quite liked) was out of stock and the over one was £35.72!!!!!! I know that is crazy. The bridge I liked was £17.50 it should only be around £9.00. A station platform (one piece) was £7.50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These prices are better I saw a tendered locomotive for £45 bargain! Oh it was an LMS! So I am pretty fed up. Last night I was even thinking about stopping the hobby. Thank you for reading (if u are still reading). Thx :)
Hi I agree with you on almost all points. As someone who is only part time in work and marring that up with college this hobby can seem to be against you. However new releases should be DCC ready in my opinion as it is the way the hobby will develop in my opinion, look at scalextric they have modernised all releases (to my knowledge) as it is the way that hobby seems to be moving, but in the railway world I believe it will allow more choice too. The older items (such as the 0-4-0) shouldn't be as that will only increase the price. Is it time for a modelling revolution? I think so Olly
But even DCC fitted adds £50, just for a small bit of electronics? I agree add it, I can see it provides more options etc, but it should not attract such a premium on price.
I get where you are coming from, but it's the way the hobby is heading in one form or another. Also how long has DCC ready been fitted to modern, new releases loco's? 10 years for Bachmann I believe, similar for Hornby too so the 'stock' DCC ready should begin to drop in price. Notice I said should rather than will as there's a chance they won't, and I shall be made out to be but a fool Has made me think though..... OR
You’ll hate the prices of models here in NZ. If they were a direct comparison between the British Pound and the Kiwi $ I wouldn’t mind, but they aren’t. Your 50 pound loco in the UK will be around $150-200 here. Makes your channel a breath of fresh air! Keep up the good work!
Hi yes, I was given the wrong info by a few commentators and it would appear to be a problem for your side of the pond. As you probably know, Tommy comes from a Rudyard Kipling Poem about the British soldier caller "Tommy Atkins", not so sure where Yank came from if anyone knows?
100 pound for a loco is a price i want so see here in germany .. new locos do not get much cheaper than 150 pound .. ok a admit they are made in germany (99% of them at least) and they are well researched and highly detailed but there are no entry lvl locos or sets .. the cheapest starter set i found was around 150€ with a single loop, DC Controller (very very cheap made DC controller ) and a DB or OBB Diesel Loco with 1 or 2 coaches .. at least Märklin came out with a Trainset in H0 made from "lego" Bricks :D .. that is awesome .. but this one is also priced with 122,99€ ... even at my local 2. hand store, you pay around 30-40€ for a pretty beaten up loco which does not even run smooth .. prices are way too high .. :(
I was into the hobby back in the 60's and 70's and had quite a collection of trains, including a Japanese Bullet train I got in Yokosuka Japan and Yokohama. Those days the train cars for the bullet were $25 each and the engine was $30, unfortunately could never run on american tracks as the wheel base for the tracks were different sizes. Later gave all my trains when the home I stayed in ended up being sold and my family wanted there share of the money. Back then a Bachmann diesel depending on type was $25 and some of the cars which were kit were $6..you could basically have about 60 dollars of trains and run on a decent system. But when I looked at the same style now costing around $250 to 300 made me wonder what the heck. I am a Ham radio operator and the most expensive HF(high frequency radio) costing $12,500 and the least expensive is $685 makes me find my ham hobby less expensive. When I follow the train shows I ask myself when a train is running how much is wrapped up in the 50 car group..must be more than $550
(from upstate NY, USA) I recently got back into the hobby after a fifty four year absence thinking to restore my old HO equipment and then build a DCC layout with new power, additional rolling stock, new track and turnouts, etc. etc. When I looked at the prices I was shocked! At the moment, I simply can't afford it. I've also noticed that some models are cast from the same molds that were used in the sixties but are being sold for thirty to forty five dollars RTR. a tenfold increase. On sale they are over twenty dollars, a four hundred percent increase including shipping. The hobby is now so expensive that I may not build a modern layout at all. I'll refurbish and detail what I have and decide about building a small layout later. Right now I've set up a temporary test track to run DC locomotives pulling refurbished and semi refurbished rolling stock. Two nearby train oriented hobby shops, both run by elderly gentleman, have recently closed and I overheard the elderly owner of one of the last and maybe best shop in the area talking about closing the business. That would leave two small and struggling shops left. Both are run by elderly gentlemen and one is only open a few afternoons a week. I expect they will be closing soon too. High prices and the distractions/activities available these days make attracting youth into the hobby nearly impossible. Unless young people in large numbers enter it and prices come down significantly, it's probably doomed to at least near extinction. Just FYI, there are lots of ONS Branchine Blueprint kits available now on eBay. I purchased three for about five dollars each. Although somewhat tricky to build, the results are well worth the time and effort. As people discover these gems, prices are going up. The retirement dates for the prototype cars range from the mid seventies for some cars to the mid eighties for others. If they fit the era you are modeling, I'd stock up :) I get most of my parts from eBay, primarily NOS. The prices are good but often the shipping is more than the actual part and one vendor generally doesn't have all of what is needed so bundling is difficult. I'd rather buy from my LHS if they had the parts and save the shipping cost. I've documented nearly all of my restoration and upgrade efforts on video which will be posted to youtube in the near future. - dave
Additionall info to my previous comment: Many large model railway producers were going bankrupty during the last decades. Hornby from England at several times too. Other companies are Märklin, Trix, Fleischmann, LGB, and Arnold from Germany, Liliput and Roco from Austria, Lima and Rivarossi from Italy, Jouef from France. Hornby brand is owned by the British Phoenix Asset Management (the Hornby Group) today. They are additionally owners of the brands Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold, and Electrotren from Spain. Several Hornby locos have the bodies of previous Lima models e.g. the new Hymek Class 31 with sound. The new German owners (investors) of the Märklin brand are additionally owners of Trix and LGB. Fleischmann is together with Roco part of a German-Austrian holding company today. Liliput is part of the British Bachmann Group today. A huge profit is the only interest of the new investors who are often no real model train enthusiasts so as the founders.
Budget Model Railways - in the long run that strategy prices people out of the market and they end up with no sales at all. What are they going to do then? You can't make money if you're not selling product.
You have forgot ETS Train from Czech Republic, Tillig from Germany, Maloserijovky, from CZ, Merkur Toys, Igra Model... and plenty of other, it will depend on scale, but you perhaps could find some suitable budget models.
I have looked online for even starter sets in Canada and it is really pricey just for a small set with around 2-3 wagons and a small little loco and a small round track layout it costs around $200 Canadian and then an extra loco even a small shunting size loco is around $100-$200 Canadian it's just crazy if prices where lower it would possibly attract a lot more age groups in to the hobby .
Been saying this since Hornby/ Bachmann / retail started the pre order came into being. Totally agree ..it is definitely putting off newcomers ...glad I am not alone...well said sir!
how do these firms expect to get youngsters into this great hobby when the items are so expensive?
Exactly im 12 and im a trainspotter and I would like to have a train set but that price though!
@THECOMMENTMASTER 7 very good points well made, thanks
I would say the same I myself am a younger person who wants to be a modeller but cannot afford to buy more than two things per year
Sadly thats so true, even second hand is very pricey
I HAVE THE SAME FRICKING QUESTION! I JUST WANT TO HAVE SOME FUN! AND THEN THEY BLAME THE VIDEO GAMES FOR TAKING AWAY THE YOUNG AUDIENCE. WHEN WILL THEIR AUDACITY END!
When I was a kid my dad took my brother and I to the local train show every year outside of Seattle. It was maybe $5 for most pre owned cars, $20-30 for locos. I went to the train show this year for old times sake with my younger cousin after we hadn't gone for probably ten years, and for those same pre owned cars it was over $25-30 and each loco was at least $100. The cheapest I saw was a boring grey Sealand container, just one, for $20! It's sad because model railroading is a good hobby but the price is killing it.
For new kits though I think it's the same price as when I was younger. I've always been fascinated with Euro high speed rail and Kato's new TGV duplex set with ten cars is about $300. Really enjoy it but I wish it were easier to find new British and ICE sets.
As 3D printers get cheaper, I think we'll see more people using 3D printing technology to participate in the hobby on the cheap.
We have two 3D printers and have just launches a small range of 009 rolling stock and loco bodies with more models planned in. OO , HO and N, so you are right there
@@BudgetModelRailways American model trains are worse
I've already started 3D printing !!
Good luck with it
The model train Hobby was always very expensive. They push their product as a Christmas ,birthday high end gift. Its said the Hobby is dying ,and that's been so since the 1950s ! No wonder, people who do buy them, lose interest, as they can't afford the accessories. This is an absurd world wide of phenomenon. Wonderful Marklin , so high. Price so high ,you dont make a profit because you SELL less. They should have loss leaders ,and older molds to get people in . Or if the trains are high, the accessories should be cheap....plus build pre made platforms. So many, single mothers etc ,dont have the ability to go make one ....in this day & age absurd!
Totally agree, Im 28 and 90% of my layout and locos are second hand, I simply cant afford to buy brand new directly from hornby Its simply too expensive.
We have far too many locos! But all but two of them were bought second hand, most for approx £20/25, like you I simple couldn't afford that many locos new. Mind you second hand prices have shot up
Every year there is a model railway exhibition right next to my house and the vast majority of them were bought from there, I often buy broken ones and fix them to save money but even the broken ones are becoming expensive. :(
Try non runners
I've noticed when I go into the local shops everyone, including myself, is at least 55 years old or older. And the one shop is really only interested in selling the most expensive models, so I almost never go there.
Exactly, take look at our other video on model railways and young people for more on the age topic
Absolutely agree. I'm 50, live in Australia and was looking to get back into the hobby - but the prices are outrageously high with a nasty markup even after the exchange rate conversation. The weather is fantastic here for garden railways, not to mention huge gardens but it's just too expensive - and I'm in a very well paid job.
Makes me cringe watching videos on RUclips and who ever it is says "I bought this loco for £100, which i think is great value" what? Really? And then they go and get the DCC chip at £30 or what ever they are! It's unreal, yes some of the newest stuff is super detailed and run beautifully but as you say, surely they don't need to be that expensive. This is also another reason why I refuse to sell any of my railway models because when I eventually have the room to make a decent layout I'll have the stuff ready and waiting because no way would I buy brand new starter kits or locos/rolling stock!
Your right a rant is good 😂👍
Like you I can't believe that some people think £100+ for a loco is a bargain!
Well in some cases it is! Some brass loco's cost nearly £500 each
It's all relative - £100+ for a super-detailed locomotive that looks AMAZING and has DCC fitted is a great bargain. BUT, not everyone wants that. To bring people into the hobby, the basic stuff is perfect - and giving people options for those are definitely what is needed. For me, there's some mid-tier stuff, locos that would've been £150-200 five years ago that are now sneaking down below £100 - I am happy with those. If they were available as their own range, that'd be so useful. And the Railroad locos would sell like hot cakes if they were priced accurately - not only will beginners/newbies to the hobby buy things like the £30 Class 33, but others will buy them to use as kitbashing parts or a nice project to add detailing parts, weathering etc.
Exactly, it's not the high prices as such it's the lack of a cheaper option.
True, the problem is that not many people have £500 and the real issue is not high prices where it might be justified but the lack of a cheaper option to bring people in
Definitely agree, cost is putting people off starting in the hobby - I always buy second hand now, locos for about £30 etc - something with some play value that doesn't really matter if it gets a bit damaged. But these new locos at £130+ is something I just cant justify buying at this time.
Seeing as PS4 and XBoxes are all about the same price now . . .its easy to see which one parents are more likely to go for.
When I had space for railways, I was always making stuff out of recycling as I just couldnt afford to buy model kits (some buildings are so expensive!)
Interesting reading the comments, I have built model railways for over 50 years and the price was always eye watering. I am also a mould toolmaker who has had the pleasure of making tools for Hornby and some of comments about tooling are somewhat inaccurate especially when it comes to CAD, CNC and price ... I remember when calculators came out, as soon as everyone was able to afford one the sums set at school became far more difficult, OK if you had a calculator, a bit unfair if you couldn't afford one.
As with calculators CAD/CAM allows today's models to be far more detailed than yesteryear and to be honest the plastic parts are probably not that expensive, but putting them together and finishing them with high quality paintwork is expensive, modelers are very fussy and demand more, hence the price.
Many years ago I bought Thomas and Percy for my kids, the mouldings were simple, they were moulded in the colour to be used, very little fitting or painting involved, this reflected in their reasonable price.
To be fair to Hornby, I have seen the Lima based Deltic for sale at £60 new, whilst the Bachmann offering is twice the price, I have both and put next to each other the Bachmann version is far better. Hornby's railroad range using old or ex Lima moulds is a sensible way to help youngsters into the hobby. Prices are often half the premium version of the products and being less complicated tend to last well. The Bargain sections of most main online retailers offer some really good deals on new locomotives and rolling stock.
"Budget Model Railways" does a good job, showing inexpensive ways to enter the hobby, maybe linking up with Hattons, Kernow and other retailers to promote the best new bargains is a good way forward, there is no need to pay the often quoted prices of over £150 for a locomotive, £50 - £60 allows a reasonable choice. Model railway shows, Ebay, car boot sales and the second hand section of retailers offer a great choice for used rolling stock for as little as a fiver.
Model railway manufacturers are finding life tough at the moment, many have gone bust, it is only natural that they will try to capitalize on limited quantity high quality models, but please remember younger modelers are catered for by Hornby's Railroad range. There are plenty of card models for buildings available, modelling materials are not that expensive and PVA glue from a cheap store is as good as the expensive stuff.
When I started my first railway, the choice was Wren, Trix or Triang Hornby, I bought Triang Hornby because that is what my pocket money would stretch to, even though I really wanted the Wren version
Budget Model Railways are doing a great job showing that the hobby can be enjoyed on a limited budget, but we must remember we are not being fair to the industry by only quoting the price of top end models, after all my first car was a second hand Vauxhall Viva, because I couldn't afford a Jaguar XJS.
Keep up the good work "Budget Model Railways" and it would be nice to think the manufacturers read these comments, because there is a lot they could learn.
Hi and many thanks for such a full and informed comment, I appreciate you taking the effort. We probably agree on most points, I would just like to see more of the range released and at a slightly lower price. I still struggle to see how the four wheeler coach can be £17 given that the wagon on the same chassis is only £10, I suspect the cheaper models are being used to subsidise the high end ones. My main concern is that the hobby seems to be only catering for the richer older enthusiast, even the model press seems that way, but as you say we are doing our best to solve that. We know that many people have taken up the hobby from seeing our videos and our layout at exhibitions, just imagine what could happen if the press and suppliers tried the same instead of just preaching to the converted. Thanks again for your comment and support
Hi, I agree with you £17 is too expensive for the 4 wheeled coach, I've just looked on Hattons website where it is listed at £13.88p new. I have one left over from my kids Thomas the Tank engine days, It consists of 3 main mouldings (Chassis, Body, Roof), plus window mouldings, 2 axles with wheels and a coupling at each end. The body is painted with lining pad printed. There is more work in producing a carriage than a wagon that consists of just two main mouldings. The factory probably charges around £5 at the gate, there is import duty, shipping and VAT to be added, raising the price to around £8, then the shop marks it up by between 30 and 60% to cover the cost of premises, staff, NIC contribution, pension contribution etc giving a price in the shop of around £12, so £13.88 is not too far wide of the mark. As you can see there is a big difference in price between the factory and the shop, for which Hornby is not responsible.
The price could be reduced in a number of ways ... selling direct ... selling higher numbers or more competition between shops (Budget Model Railways could play a part here by advertising the shop offering the best deal)
I could not find it on the internet cheaper than Hattons, who also have lots of second hand ones for sale at around £7.
Even 50 or more years ago the railway modeler magazines were aimed at older people with a section for younger readers. Thomas the Tank has done more than anything else to bring the young into the hobby. It is time for the manufacturer to produce their own high quality children's videos featuring a new range of character engines in much the same way the Rev Awdry did with Thomas. Re-invention is the way to survive and prosper.
In the meantime BMR can and does play its part by advising where viewers can get the best bargains.
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Hi Tim,, Excellent!! John
One of the worst thing about living in Australia is how expensive model trains are
Same with România
I agree with your opinion 100%, we live in a culture where we (the consumer) think more expensive means better quality. This is achieved by the retail market industry feeding us advertising and marketing to convince us of this. I've been in manufacturing for decades and know once R&D and the tools is complete, its all pure profit after that. Many of the model train tooling dies are probably years old, and have long ago made their money back for the R&D and tooling. Take it there is a collector market that these model train manufacturers may be appealing to, but that is a also an expendable money market too. The model train market can be an expanding market if the manufacturers keep prices in the range of the beholder. Good rant...BTW. lets see if this comes to fruition? Probably not.. I enjoy your channel and glad to see the your channel is gaining viewers. Keep up the great work. Skol! Ron//
I'd also like to point out that the capabilities of CNC mills and EDM machines designed specifically for tool making has really sped up and automated processes. For example the surface finish a high-end CNC mill can achieve makes the need for manual polishing obsolete or highly reduced. Electrodes for EDM can be machined overnight in batches autonomously and to a high degree of accuracy. It's one reason there are fewer tool makers than there used to be.
I teach machine trades on the college level. I have over 55 years in the trabe and teaching,( I started in 1968). There is only one reason why... greed. These train parts can be manufactured at , and sold for 90% of the cost now charged.
Thanks for the confirmation. The basic Hornby loco has gone up from £34 to £51 in two years using the same 30 year old moulds
As someone from a younger demographic (28 y/o), I look at these prices - for example, that train consist being north of £300 - and I just think, "christ, my car is worth less than that". And I instantly go back to cheaper hobbies.
Younger people have less money and less space. And, as pointed out, a lot of the lower end models are easily in the range of £5-15 in terms of a sensible retail cost (depending on the item) - but they're simply not going for it. It's bad business. They seem to be set in a way of doing things, and don't look at the possibility of opening up the market by charging less, but getting more, because more people are buying (which also gives you larger scales of economy).
A good example of counter-intuitive pricing being good is with PC games on Steam, where they make their most money during the twice annual sales - a time when games have huge discounts, anything from 30% to 90%. Although, coincidentally, I think the computerised train sim community suffers the same conservatively minded business model, too. They seem to overcharge for the sort of content other games can produce, even with the smaller potential market, which in my mind is definitely wasting the hobby's potential there, too.
Thanks Jo, some great points
You are absolutely right. Though the age issue is not limited to younger people, the pricing has stopped me taking the hobby up in my 30s,40s and now in my 50s. I had a setup when I was a child and have always wanted to do it again. As a keen modeller my young daughter also wanted us to set up a layout. But the prices are just insane and we never will at current prices. It's a shame and people with layouts are far rarer than when I was growing up as a result. I recall 2 of my teachers had model railways and about 5 of my mates did. Now I know only 1 person with one... which speaks volumes.
"That's my son saying hello. He doesn't know I'm changing the locks when I'm 18"
1. Omg I'm dying lmao
2. Great vid
3. Should've changed them at 12
"Nellie", "Polly" and "Connie" 0-4-0s once retailed at 33 shillings and sixpence. Basically regarding Hornby it is greed, there's no two ways about it!
absolutely agree. not all of us have wages or pensions. it's just to expensive. then adults are wondering "why are young people not into the hobby these days?". I get 10 euros pocket money each week. How am I supposed to be able to buy a train that costs upwards of €100??? It's ridiculous
I couldn''t afford them on my pocket money as a kid in the 1960s either, not much has changed :(
you wait 10+ plus weeks?
@@pedanticmongrel Yes, but then there are other expenses that come with the hobby (obviously I'm not suggesting that everything should be free, but it's not cheap either)
My recent trip to the arts and craft shop:
2 sheets of mounting board -7 euros
Paint brushes- 5 euros
Brick paper - 7 euros
Plumbers hemp - 5 euros
Paint - 5 euros
Nearly 30 euros gone for some materials for scratch building projects. As I said, I'm not expecting things to be free, but I dont want to spend 10 weeks modelling nothing saving up for a train as I'd have no funds for anything else!
Anyway I feel that I'm complaining way too much here as this hobby is still very fun and rewarding!
@@jonathankelly7430 i get €10 each MONTH that makes it impossible for me to even buy a locomotive from märklin, i think all trains are overpriced. like €309 for ONE locomotive and €79 for ONE wagon. my dad dosn't let me buy anything over €50 so i just quitted with this hobby :(
I came into this hobby 3 years ago (I retire in a months time)I fancied doing a train layout for my own amusement. I looked in the window of our local shop and nearly had a heart attack at the prices. I binned the idea for some weeks and then I was delivering stuff to local charity shop and saw a Gt Western set for £15 along with another box of track and stuff for a £10. Bought it and my son sponsored my layout board and foam base. Thats how i got started, went on eBay and bought old buildings and accessories 2nd hand. Repainted all the engines and coaches to German colours and restencilled as DB German Federal Railways. My layout is an imaginery german town and I love it, It is now being redesigned incorporated a sawmill and some extra sidings. All. in DC because DCC is far too expensive and causes too much trouble
Sounds fantastic Thanks for supporting us
Well, I agree. :-)
I find it's cheaper to build model railways, than it is to buy the trains. I do love the modelling side above all else, but I still haven't bought any trains for some years now.
Hopefully the future will be different.
Sammy B Videography yeah, especially considering 3D printing is getting cheaper every year
I've tried to make 3d printed ho scale model trains before, I started really simple with some basic 4 wheel chassis, a "universal chassis" that I could attach various 3d printed bodies to, and after some experimentation, I discovered that the biggest issue is the wheels, it is really hard to print wheels that are reasonably round, and the axles are really fragile, that said it was just a M3d I got from a christmas sale, not some extremely proffesional rig. Higher end machines might have better results.
Have a look on ebay. I've purchased bags of wheel sets (up to 100) from China, for scratchbuilding and kitbashing models. Quite cheap and not much cost to post. All metal wheels, metal axles, fine scale treads and flanges too. There is the odd dud which is buckled. Goes on display on the scrap pile at the workshops. The only thing I wish would be mentioned in ads is the axle length.
Mate I hate to break it to you, but in the states it's getting just as obnoxious price wise. You are absolutely right about the hobby getting overpriced. I just bought a Bachmann N Scale set for my son and it set me back nearly 120 dollars US. The nearly identical set 10 years ago was 54 dollars US. I thinks it's honestly gouging and greed, the industry knows kids are flocking to the latest XBOX or Playstation and are making hobbies in general a "niche" market with prices to match. It's a damn shame because so many fathers, older men and kids love to hand down this hobby and it's being priced by shills and "limited production". That's my rant.
Couldn't agree more
This is pretty much the main reason I stopped railway modelling years ago.
I can remember as a teenager in the early 2000s, being able to purchase a Hornby 14XX for £31.50. Okay the tooling was ex-Dapol and is now looking quite dated, but within a few years, locos of similar size were passing £40 at the cheapest retailers.
Now I'm indulged in filmmaking full-time, I'm unable to spare anything even on a budget. Only Rapido's recent announcement of a Titfield Thunderbolt train pack will encourage me to invest, but even that will have to result in a few sacrifices.
Thank you for covering this issue. Keep up the good work.
I agree where did this price hike come from.
I think part of the problem is that not as many kids want to get into the hobby anyway nowadays, meaning that they need to make higher prices in order to make the same amount of money as they did years ago.
Interesting video.......I model in n gauge,and if you look at some of the new prices of models,such as a dcc 2 6 4 Pacific up around £270 your eyes begin to water!!.....I spent all of my working life in retail, and sometimes a company like Hornsby,that specialises in a specific range/ line can find,as popularity declines, that to remain afloat,pay shareholders, introduce new lines and stock,that ,after reducing every cost they can( redundancies etc) the only way to survive is to push up prices until sales start to slow ,then the price remains at that level.........as to the China end totally agree....a pair of tourmaline earrings in 9 carat gold were sent ,free delivery, to me just before Christmas for £4.99!!.....keep up the good work!
I'm Australian in the 50+ age group, it was always an expensive hobby here. I think that what has changed is people's expectations as to how well a locomotive should run, thanks to RUclips. Thus entry level locomotives by Hornby may look pretty, but are terrible to control (I'm looking at you Mr Pug and your 0-4-0 mates). This is ridiculous in 2017. Then you find that your upgrade locomotives are a hit and miss affair, and each miss being a $$$$ loss, and frustration. Sorry, i'm not in the hobby to increase frustration. One gets wary and keeps one's wallet in one's pocket.
Where I think Rovex/Triang/Hornby shot themselves in the foot was not switching to HO. I understand they were unable to make their motors small enough to fit the smaller scale, but when that was no longer an issue, they should have swapped. Their production market is now curtailed to us British outline modlers, they have a limited, finite and dwindling world wide market.
And since i'm on a rant, the price of rolling stock is prohibitive (flabbergastingly, eye wateringly, extortionate) But I guess this is the steady income stream that keeps the manufacturers afloat whilst they wait for the large bubbles of income that arise each time a new expensive tooling of locomotives hits the shelves. I wonder if going back to good basics would sustain the hobby, or if that simpler take on the hobby is a thing of a simpler past. Maybe my basics are too basic for tomorrow's modeler.
Too many board execs and not enough enthusiasts at the control panel. They are neglecting to bring to market fun.
Check out "Sort of Interesting Trains" on RUclips for his video "you spent how much" Makes me sad. Fun guy btw :)
Both Lima and Jouef and one other tried HO outline and none of them could make it work
I'm late to the table here but better late than never right.
I've just recently been able to bring out of storage a Lima set my grandfather gave me when I was 5 (I'm early 40's).
Here in Australia it's a ridiculous priced hobby to be considering.
Surely they can re-release some models using old tooling at a cheaper price than the newer models, further more having big runs of a single model make it cheaper per piece, more people able to afford an item can increase the fan base, pick a couple models to start and they'll know if it works. Even I've seen the increase in 'limited runs' being used more and more to control the price versus effort/outlay, and certainly not just this hobby.
The costs involved have me looking at well used second hand and how much I can make/repair myself with everyday items, this will give the manufacturers virtually no income from me, and everyone else in my shoes.
Surely some of them see this happening.
I can agree with pretty much all your rant :) I started with hornby sets that were bought by my parents for Christmas, later in life I moved onto 16mm:1" scale, four times larger than hornby and running in the garden, the staggering thing that you pointed out about the G Scale been nearly the same price as one loco and four coaches is that a live steam (not electric) loco can be bought from suppliers such as accucraft or roundhouse engineering for a little over £500 for an entry level loco into proper live steam running trains. What's more the track the locos run on been 32mm gauge in my case is around £90 for 12yards of track. For around the same length of hornby track your looking at £40 only half the price not a quarter as you would expect if price was proportionate to size.......and don't even get me started on N gauge lol.
My point is that there is a need for prices to reduce for OO to maintain been a hobby that entices people. I suspect and have seen over the last 5-10years the 16mm scale really becoming popular, and I expect that will continue, there are companies that supply coaches to 16mm scale size for £30-50 for a four wheel coach, a bogie coach been around £60-70. All food for thought. Not to.distract too much from OO or the work you two do making these videos, but you have a real valid point that really need to be addressed before the big players in the hobby bow out due to their customer base diminishing.
Can’t agree more with anything that is said throughout. I’m kicking the backside of 50, looking at this hobby to help my mental health after a stroke. Wish companies would see they’re missing a trick. Keep the good work and ideas going sirs loving these!!!.
Good luck with it. Model railways are very beneficial for mental health , I even made a video on this a little while back. Build cheap, buy second hand, build and run whatever you like and have fun!
Coming from an overseas South American modeler where anything and everything MUST be imported, I´ve known nothing but clear disadvantages of dedicating myself to this hobby. I walked into it for the first time when I lived in the US back during my teens and reassumed the hobby in 2011. Since reassuming, I had to buy everything from scratch. The local model hobby stores didn´t know a single thing about DCC, (which was the way I prefered to go this time). Only through some very small and limited retailers could I get my hands on such things locally, the rest was just importation (and the fees that come with it). Track, rolling stock and scenery was relatively easy to come by in the stores but accessibility didn´t necessarily translate to inesxpensive. Then it hit me to go check the youtube and the MRR channels and boy was I in for a treat! My most important overseas purchase (to me at least) would definitely be the precision tools (of which I purchased a very large selection through Micro Mark). These represent my possibility to tackle this hobby fairly on my own. In the end , places like the US and UK (to mention a few) do have a very strong MRR industry and that is shown through the travelling expos and shows, not to mention the countless MRR associations (many usually close to peoples homes where they can sort out all kinds of doubts and issues with fellow members in no time). Luxury i can't afford in these latitudes because of lack of such associations. I believe that 3D printing has come for many modelers as a real solution to their problems and certain prototypical etching that just can't be bought through the established market. New techniques of modeling shared unselfishly through extensive and dedicated youtube tutorials paved the way instead of having to buy specific MRR magazines in the past that might not have even addressed the issue or solved ones specific problem that today is solved by posting a message to the generous youtube modeler in his channel (and receiving a reply!). Bottom line, costs are relative to the effort we (as a group are willing to pay) and in exchange go about the extra mile as to come up with convincing and innovative solutions that are downright inexpensive, ingenious and can help make you build prototypical representations regardless of your geographic location. In my case all my purchased scenery kits do need a certain degree of kitbashing, not to mention that all need new signs because they all come in English. I believe we are in an era as to not sacrifice our hard earned money on the thing we can model for ourselves convincingly and purchase those we simply can´t. My two cents.....
Is this a high school essay
Hoping people obtain a little more insight regarding others experience rather than addressing the length, style, grammar, etc. It’s sad that people will still criticize ANY aspect of a post and not the content.
I used to be a member of a model railway club,but left because I was starting to loose interest. I’m thinking about coming back to the hobby but the prices are just too high and can’t justify paying the price of the newer models.
Take a look at second hand and eBay , it's where we get all our track, locos and rolling stock
You are correct about everything you said here. In 1969 when I first started collecting "N" Scale trains, you could get an engine for about $10.00 and a freight car costs about $2.00. TODAY, an engine costs about $150.00 and any kind of "reasonable" freight car costs about $20 or $30 or $40.00 and up!
As you pointed out, they are all made in China and they probably costs no more than a dollar or two to make. It is a big rip off.
Just wanted to point out that here in the states, it is the same thing. Train cars are very expensive.
Also, those fancy German plastic building kits are extremely expensive. An average building kit costs about $50.00 (for a small one) to over $175.00 for something bigger. Recently, I noticed a building kit for a European style Monastery building kit. It is a very large kit and I was curious as to what it costs. I found it and the price was almost $500.00 for it! I had no intention of buying it anyway but was curious as to what it cost.
I find that just about every single time I see a kit, it costs about $50.00 or $100.00 per kit but if I scratch build it myself, MY cost is about $5.00 or so. The hobby is getting outrageously expensive.
-Regards, Ron
Insane prices, I find train videos relaxing, but I don't want one, I'm just here watching yours and other channels for the dioramas! Hornby are cheeky effers! Perhaps if they were very cheap I would get one tbf, but I've always been aware of the prices in the back of my mind after being into dollhouse minatures years ago! Lol I'm a 25 year old female hahaha I am the opposite demographic XD
We have a diorama video coming up, and a street scene being made in my layout. It's a great hobby if you do it with second hand items
Will you marry me? ;))
A well presented fair and informative video. My dear wife bought me a train set for Xmas which really was a pleasant surprise. The next suprise though was not at all. I really was staggered at the prices of additional trains and carriages and this will now limit how far I go with the hobby. I am learning how to go cheaper and see that buying brand new will be a very limited option. Thanks for the video really well explained.
I agree. I've recently got back into the hobby in my early 40's and if it wasn't for ebay and hunting around for ex-collector stock I would't have bothered. I don't understand why Hornby and the rest are so expensive, they are shooting themselves in the foot really. I never buy from a Hornby shop, the prices are ridiculous.
When Irv Athearn first started producing his ho scale f7, the price was $7.00 usd. Car kits were priced at $2.50 and $3.50 usd. well into the 1960's. The prices today are insane and the product isn't 3ven produced domestically.
But in 60's I earned maybe $2/hr two years ago when I retired $42/hr so that engine at 3 1/2 hrs wage $100 + and not great quality compared to today, all relative
In the UK wages have not gone up for ten years yet prices have gone up 20%+ , I'm earning exactly the same as I did in 2007 yet everything I buy has gone up, some model railway items have gone up nearly 40% in that time.
This the reason why we only see old mans with big layouts! You need more than 10 years to buy everything for your dream layout!
I won't live that long . . .
@@jimbaritone6429 retirement fund lol
Its even worse in the USA. Coaches regularly $80-$100 and large steam engines typically over $500 unless you buy the really cheap stuff
Wonderful analytical video. 8-) You're doing great work for promoting a healthier approach to the entire hobby. Keep up the good work !
As someone looking into getting into the hobby (but only slightly, I prefer home-made scenery/terrain, only need the rails, locos and some cars), I've always been dismayed at all the absurd prices. Even a decade and more ago, the situation was exactly the same, sadly. An acquaintance of mine even wrote a series of blog articles, at that time, on how he's become very passionate at promoting a home-brewn approach to the hobby, precisely because of all the constant overpricing. When even tiny accessories for typical H0 railways cost some 20-30 euros or pounds on average, and even the cheapest locomotives are barely under 50 euros or pounds, that's outright shameful. I don't mind overpriced high-end stuff for the details-obsessed pros, but not even starter kits have decent pricing these days.
You are absolutely right. I used to do model trains with my dad and whilst he funded it it was fine, I moved out got my own job etc but can't imagine starting out on my own for my own models and trains, I just don't have the disposable income!
That's what a lot of people are telling us, especially your age group which in My view is the market they should be aiming at. Mind you take a look at second hand it brings the prices right down.
Harley Davidson here in the states is going through the exact same thing. Their buyers keep getting older and older (for the same basic reasons) and while they are doing OK now they can already see the writimg on the wall. Harley is desperately marketing toward younger people now. Hopefully model rr companies will get the same clue at some point.
Harley Davidson has ran for years on the "outlaw biker" image and history of there bikes.
Since the 80's there been behind in tech in other bikes, often there keep stuck in the past by said history.
about time you changed your name from Budget Model Railways to Common Sense Railways
That's very kind, thanks
Nearly three years late to the game here, but since lockdown and getting back into the model trains I've come across your channel and it is genius. Scatter on a corduroy swatch for a veg patch, roofing felt for ballast, black sandpaper and strips of a white sticky label for road. We sold off the large majority of our locos, rolling stock, and buildings two years ago, it had just been sitting boxed away for a few years before that, and kept what is still a good amount for when the nephews/grandkids are old enough. As I've said to my Dad many times in the last two or three months, you really wouldn't want to be starting out or getting into trains in 2020 with the price of it these days.
Glad we could help. New prices especially for buildings and infrastructure are silly and second hand especially locos is not much better
What a well thought out video. As said elsewhere I model in N Gauge for space reasons, and fined the costs somewhat expensive in today's market. When I started the models were very limited and basic, yet reasonably priced. If you acquired models on ebay you were buying from sellers that were selling dads old models, and you bid accordingly. Now ebay are mostly shops with there buy it now prices, I have even seen second hand priced as new. Even the swap meets are asking high prices for tat. I envisage a day when the model rail industry will price itself out of business unless it wakes up to reality. Keep up the good work guy's
Thanks, second had prices are silly now in some places
Great comments great vid ...the only thing I would say there are lot of people who actually buy at inflated prices... myself I try all avenues to buy stuff occasionally a new one ....yep I’m one of the oldies nearly 70 ....but came to hobby late and although retired still do not have a huge disposable income but you are right we need new blood in the hobby .....it was a good rant ....regards Fred
That's the problem , the price of any product is what people are prepared to pay, not its actual cost. All the time three are enough people prepared to pay high prices( just 500 on limited runs) then the prices will remain high.
Hi Fred,
I am an active 71 year old!! Take a look at my entry above, signed by John. Have fun, enjoy the hobby. John
It’s basically the same here in the US especially with Lionel O gauge starter sets now costing anywhere between $175-$300 USD. My first starter set from them was $190 USD which was several years before Lionel added LionChief BlueTooth R/C technology in recent years. I do agree that this hobby is aimed towards the older/elderly demographic and less on kids. This is also why they make mostly 1950’s era buildings and trains more, but have some attention to modern era stuff. I just hope one day all of the world’s model train companies get to know the younger demographic better and start catering to them more since this isn’t the 50s anymore and the previous generations aren’t around any longer.
This is also why the younger generations are mostly into gaming and apps more. I remember when Leokimvideo said that in a video he filmed at a model railway exhibition a year ago. He also explained about how train shows/exhibitions drive kids away from the hobby instead of towards it. I’m not sure if you saw that or not, but I just think kids who are interested in trains are going to spend more time on train simulators instead of building actual layouts. The train simulator downloable content can either be free or be payware which are far cheaper than actual models since I bought some myself. Once someone buys a simulator game, their virtual train collection would grow larger in less time than it would take for someone who collects actual model trains. I can see why the gaming industry is doing well when it comes to virtual trains.
My son Doug is always very popular when we exhibit because he is usually the only exhibitor under 50. The hobby esp in the UK is obsessed with the steam era which holds limited interest to younger modellers or even late entries like me who have no memory of steam, so I agree with you.
I get mines free cause Santa 🎅🏻
Some well made points.
I'm considering coming back into the hobby modelling 0-16.5, but I am thinking twice because I'm gobsmacked at the prices.
My interest was re-kindled when I had a recent clear out and found some old OO9 stock that I sold on eBay to help fund another hobby. I thought I'd be lucky to get more than £100 for the 30+ year old locos and wagons, most of which had faults. I described them honestly and was amazed when I cleared £400 for them! That should have rung some warning bells as to new prices, because high new prices drive up 2nd hand prices.
So am I coming back into the hobby? Still haven't decided. And the *only* reason I'm undecided is cost.
Mehano is much cheaper ......
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!!! I have been saying this for ages to any of friends who will listen, the cost is simply absurd, its putting me off getting into the hobby and I'm 26! Yes I have a 40 hour week in my job but they need to re-examine their pricing and as soon as possible, Hornby need to sort themselves out, the prices they expect for starter locos kit and everything is mental, very well explained video, you have yourself a new subscriber my good sir!
Thanks for your support
This is litteraly the only reason i haven't been able to get into model railroads. I don't want to spends 100-200 euro's on a loop with a single switch that'll likely only be entertaining for 3 hours. This is the reason i have gotten into Bluebrixx: a lego alternative that sells pretty cheap, high quality loco's and wagons.
if i had children and wanted them to get into model railroading i would rather teach them to build models buildings tracks electronics etc themselves. it cuts costs and keeps them usefully occupied while they learn. because just running a train on a circle will make them bored quickly. rather go out into nature and collect stuff which you can use nicely on your layout. make buildings yourself from cardboard paint them weather them etc...
for my first layout i used big matchboxes as tunnels on a table. i was very young and just happy to use all kinds if stuff which was not made for model trains to enhance it. :-)
those were matchboxes with mountains printed on them. it was enough to get the mind of a young kid engaged for a while...
Very well said
just like in America, auto manufacturers are charging outrageous prices for autos/trucks..for instance, $72k for fully loaded ford truck..not many will buy because they don't have the money and do not have the jobs..and companies will end up like sears, penneys, and macys going broke or maybe go to a mexico for cheaper labor but will still have to pay higher import prices back into the US..everything is a chain reaction and model railroad is not different..common people will not buy because of the high price..
"$72k for fully loaded ford truck"
Does it have to be fully loaded? I agree that prices are ridiculous to what you're getting but a $72k truck isn't exactly a mass-market model. At that price point you're starting to get into premium luxury and/or high-performance models. Besides, a Raptor is the _last_ thing you want for a work truck, the suspension is just too soft for hauling.
This vid was obviously made 4 years ago, but I wish Birdcage coaches were £30 now! They are currently £76 on Model Railways Direct website!
There's something unique about trains, big or small, in the UK where there is a perfect storm of middle class disposible income and manufacturer greed.
My son has enough Tomy train track, engines and rolling stock to fill the entire downstairs of our house, all bought for pennies from eBay. Even the new stuff, in toy shops, costs barely a tenner per loco, with detail levels approaching that of Hornby. And the reason it's cheap? Because it's a child's toy.
Suddenly, when it's grown up men buying, essentially, the same products (molded plastic around a firm chassis and electric motor) - it can cost literally 100 times as much. It's like there's a pride in exclusivity, fuelled in a bit of an echo chamber between the richest buyers and the greediest manufacturers.
You're quite right about some of those molds being around for decades - I have dozens of those 4 wheeled carriages, most of which I acquired secondhand in the early 1980s. Some are so old they have "Triang Hornby" embossed on them - placing them in the very early 1970s. All of the other of those entry models date at least to the 1980s. As you say, there is no way all the costs haven't been recouped yet.
This is one of the reasons why for the last decade, I have modelled exclusively in the digital arena. If I want 5 Big Boys pulling quarter mile trains on my 100 mile layout, I don't have to pay a penny more than if it's a GWR pannier and autocoach on 3 foot of line in a loft.
Great that you talk about this.lets hope the word reaches the right ears
After your unfortunate 3 in 1 and WD40 utube, I have to say I totally agree with you on this one. I think all your arguments hold water and are clearly and well made. I am utterly amazed that nobody has tried to capitalise any more than they seem to have, on what must be a good market out there. My children had model trains and now my grand children are ready for them. Every year I go to the Warley annual show and it is absolutely crowded out for two days. Never mind all the individuals and clubs all over the UK and abroad, the attendance at the Warley show would in itself keep the industry in mink coats.
But a message to Bachmann, Hornby, et al, although I can afford it, I don't buy anything unless it is on offer or is second hand. Precisely for the reasons concerning the lack of fairness to others who should be encouraged to take up the hobby, but also because it simply smacks of taking the piss!
Hi Tom , thanks for your comment, you might also enjoy a similar video we did on the future of model railways
am an old train enthusiast myself, when I was part of train spotter club in the uk in my teens, I had an old hornby set long time ago, Rocky Mountain Express, came complete with layout already pre=assembled, good set, and looking at prices today, really do agree that prices shouldnt be so expensive for young ones coming into the hobby.....and for people like myself and older generation, that the cost of the sets and or locomotives and coaches, shouldn't be so expensive....I would like to start another set from scratch, but the cost, is one thing that is putting me off starting,
Might just start with a set and totally familar with here in Australia....and start up from there, and most probably extend when I get the place of my own, but would have the sets in storage...until that day happens.
Good luck with it thanks for commenting
Good luck I used cereal box card to back up my scale scenes coal office
Some of the models shown I remember from the 1970's. The costs of them would be well and truly paid for by now.
I model Victorian Railways Australia - blue and gold diesel era. I haven't purchased a new loco in 10 years. The ones I have: VR Bo Bo branchliners I bought for about AUSD $300 each, a decade ago, which were stored and just got out last year and now running on a layout. I accept the price for the models as the market for my interest is very small, and up to 10 years ago were only available in brass - at over $1000 AUS each. They are well detailed with lots of separate parts: handrails, chains, brake cylinders.
The recent Chinese production of Victorian Railways has resulted in almost every wagon and carriage now available 'ready to run'. A four wheel wagon is about AUSD40. I have bought a few and the detail on the models is superb: all chassis running and braking gear, see through mesh shunter's steps. It would be interesting to know what sort of effect this production has had on the extensive cottage industry of model kits, which up to recently was just about the only way to model my home state's railways. I have scratch built a few wagons, which is a very cheap way make up a train - but time consuming.
My point of view as a miniature model painter is to get crafty. I am very lucky to have artistic skills. My wife is forever mocking me when I see an ideal stone or twig or a piece of discarded rubbish I can immediately imagine changing, painting cutting or glueing to create something great and custom. Scale measurement can be tricky but the effect is amazing. This is done very cheaply and I'd be spared the funny looks in the park when I'm pocketing twigs or scooping a cup full of soil from the garden to use in the layout if prices were lower for premade scenery and loco's.
Being 34 and in a decent job I still refuse to pay full whack and repair and upgrade my trains myself 2nd hand.
Inreally advise everyone to look around at what we have available to use, thus channel is brilliant. Goood example was the cardboard platforms, free materials and a great finish. The hobby may die out but hopefully this channel keeps on going.
Hi David, sounds like me lol. I found some grit in an aquarium shop to use as ballast at about 10% of the cost of model railway ballast. With the squeeze on the cost of living I suspect our approach will increase in popularity
unbelievably expensive
I have a similar problem, albeit not with train sets. I'm into Tamiya Mini 4wd. Depending on where you shop, the cars can cost between £5-10 and again for upgrade parts any where other than direct from japan can be upto double the cost. But that's not the big problem. The issue is the track cost, sure you can always build your own if you have both the skills and tools, but to get an entry track (simple 2 lane oval) can cost around £150-£200 whilst the same simple oval 3 lane can cost around £350-£450. Extra track sections can cost anywhere between £100-£250. This is factoring in the shipping and import/customs/tax. In japan and america, they retail at about £150 for the 3 lane, £50 for the 2 lane. We have over the top costs for everything, it's hard to get into any kind of hobby other than gaming (pc/console) without stupidly excessive costs. I miss living over seas down in SE Asia.
I have a saying "The UK is where 'fun' comes to die.".
I might use that !
4 years later and man things seemed to have gotten worse. When I first moved into my house some 20+ years ago, I bought a cheap Bachmann set at Toys'r'us as something to go around the Christmas tree one year, it had a diesel engine, a number of rolling stock pieces, an oval of 'easy snap' track (whatever it was called at the time) and a controller to run it, I think I paid $40, now I don't remember the exact set but adjusting for inflation since then it should cost $65. Now I get it things end up costing more, but looking at sets similar to what I got now sold at Bachmann they're over $300 each, or more than 5x the cost of inflation. Now I get it inflation is a poor predictor of price, and direct from Bachmann is not going to be any sale price but damn if even the "entry" is out of touch with reality. And these are not high quality sets either, wheels are plastic on the rolling stock, everything is molded plastic (hell looks identical to what I still have!) and the trains are most definitely the lowest quality diesel trains they make, so yeah the pricing is just unbelievable.
Fast forward to today and a friend was giving away all his HO scale trains, and I managed to snatch them up for my kid. It had a number of diesels of varying quality (mostly on the lower end, but 1 nice one with metal railing,etc) and figure "yanno he likes steam engines, a cheap steam engine would be good" look online what a new one costs (no DCC either) and holy crap! NOPE! So yeah I'll be keeping an eye out on garage sales and so forth, just can't justify doing much in this hobby the way things are.
Morning Mike and Doug as a subscriber to budget model railways but also a beginner to the hobby I do watch your videos quite a lot and I listen to your advice in regards to going to my local model railway shop and purchasing pre owned which I’m quite happy to do ? So yesterday of I go into bolton hoping to buy some hornby track , Peco points, red brick paper, blue brick , and grey slate as I want to do some scratch built small buildings , and was prepared to buy all they had , when i got there I was told sorry Paul the pre owned is not as easily available as it use to be as people are not bringing into the modelling shops any more there putting it straight onto eBay because they know they can fetch a much higher price which did rather disappoint me because as we all know some of the prices on eBay are ridiculous I’ve even checked out quite a few Lima industrial shunters which I know you are quite a fan and even these have gone up in price , I’m keen to start my industrial shunting layout I’ve even started to put together the tools I will need to do it I’ve even been to screw fix and bought the PVA but Mike I refuse to go out there and buy all new locomotives , track and points and be throwing money at it 🤔
So it looks like I will have to keep going to the toy and model railway fairs up here in the north west and see what I can pick up , I was prepared to buy a full layout at the right price but I just can’t see this happening 🤷🏻but I will continue to watch budget model railways which is my favourite Chanel
Paul No 1 fan 👍
Second hand prices both retail and online have gone bonkers, and much of it is rubbish. Classic Rail online is worth a look. To be honest the reason I have taken up freelance N gauge is the cheap Kato Pocket line range. Utterly reliable new locos for less than half the price of second hand UK outline. Peco wagon kits for £9 each and the excellent Gaugemaster/kestrel buildings cheap even new. I've even been picking up second hand Kato Japanese outline locos for £50, half the UK outline prices. If I was starting now I simply could not afford to do UK outline OO. The Piko HO Hobby range is also much better quality and cheaper than the equivalent Hornby, and they do a good range of buildings at sensible prices. HO second hand prices are much cheaper than OO as well.
Couldn't agree more. Also it should be said that the quality of the items has not improved as quickly as the price has risen. Recently bought a brand new Hornby set. quality of all the parts was well below par for the price. If you have a look inside the flagship DCC controller you will see the components are the cheapest on the market. That together with low quality plastic mouldings that where already worn inside the box really isn't good enough. I work in the electronics industry and have to say if I put out work of such low quality it would be returned. I was forced to open the the DCC controller up to fix the keypad straight out of the box brand new. Was very sad to see how shoddy the product was, Hornby isn't what it used to be. Clearly no quality control in their screw driver plants and no pride in the products. How else do they explain an expensive DCC controller getting past QC with keys not working ? Wouldn't happen where I work.
Thanks for the insight. Their basic DC controller is a pile of crap compared to the older ones, and yet it's £20+!!
I use ebay if you wait and look for bargains you can cut down in costs also i bought an mpv recently for £60 and it costs around £100-140
Patience is the key with ebay
Some of the prices these days really take the piss. Thank goodness for retailers like Hattons who give you the odd bargain.
Totally agree with ALL your comments in the video. People have commented here that ebay is a cheap way of getting into the hobby- I would have agreed 6 years ago (when I first got into the hobby) but not now! What new people to the hobby don't seem to realise is that they are artificially forcing the prices up- not just on ebay. I bought a Pullman Observation Coach in 'like new' condition for £38 only 3 years ago on there, I've just seen one sell for £91!!! I do believe that people bid stupidly and if they held back and 'await the next one' prices will fall back to what they once were. The reason I said ‘not just on ebay’ is that people seem to forget that ebay is available to everyone 24/7 and when I attended a local Model Rail Exhibition recently the prices had gone through the roof there too- a seller behind a stall said “that’s what they’re goin for on ebay- so I match the price!” (FYI- Model Fairs used to offer discounted products at ‘trade stalls’). Hornby are also watching ebay (of course) and are responding by re-releasing those popular items at an inflated cost- doh! "Supply and demand" as they say.
Just returned from an exhibition and as you say some of the traders were in cloud cuckoo land, second hand fir almost the same as new!
You raise some valid points about the cost of new model railway equipment and the detrimental effect it must be having attracting new younger people into the hobby. I'd like to add a point about buying second hand, especially on auction sites - this has become expensive too, as prices have become inflated by "collectors" who are mostly older people, usually men, who collect not because second-hand plastic toys really have any intrinsic collectable value but because they remind them, nostalgically, of their childhood (this is certainly the case for me). But what us older enthusiasts tend to forget is that as our generation diminishes and eventually disappears, the market for second-hand plastic trains will also diminish and prices will hopefully return to a more realistic level because there will be fewer nostalgic, relatively wealthy retired old men to pay inflated prices for them.
Let's all look back to the time when a brand new bachmann class 47 was no more than £50...
These sort of price hikes are typical of a panicking industry with high overheads
You hear often that here in the states “if this item was not made in China the cost would go up a great deal for the consumer if made in the USA”. So that tells me that this H O scale ______________. (Insert brand name here) engine that currently costs retail $299.99 made in China would go to $499.00?? $399.00?? This little plastic bodied train with plastic parts for detail, a running electric engine, a tiny light or 2 and a tiny amount of metal could cost me as much as $500.00 pre tax, shipping, handling... ? I just do not buy that concept... I think it’s a little known secret that suppliers use to justify their prices. They are SAVING us money to have it made in China... um okay.. I would love to know how much money it takes to ship thousands of items from that China factory to the port, man power to load it on a cargo ship, shipping cost for that huge cargo ship to travel 100’s - 1000’s (?) of miles, man power to offload on arrival, any and all import fees and shipping to that local hobby store. Why? just to compare to having it made in the USA cutting out all that shipping costs across the oceans but made in a plant then shipped out to the retailers. I am not saying one is cheaper than the other because I honestly do not know. However, there is a lot of steps, time, people, fees involved in my first scenario. My best comparison is to go buy that model car for $15 - $25. The car once built has opening doors, hood, detailed engine, rubber tires, chrome plastic rims - parts, clear windows, detailed underneath, detailed interior, colored headlights and tail lights, some have decals etc.. then let’s buy that H O scale train building that’s a complete shell, a few details for the exterior and ummm hmm maybe a roof texture (?) for $65.00... wait what!?!? That doesn’t make much sense does it?
I agree with everything you are saying and it boils down to the suppliers are killing the hobby. How they can’t see this I am not sure but it’s happening before our very eyes. Everything is going up in price for this reason or that reason except people’s income. That ends very badly if it continues. Any hobby for the most part is a luxury in life. The first thing to go in life when money gets tight is luxuries. Suppliers needs to realize this to save themselves and the hobby. The hobby could very well carry on for decades without suppliers. The market is full of train items and there are always estates, attic finds, long time collectors pass away daily etc.. eBay stays full of 1000’s upon 1000’s of items new and old. With that said the hobby may not need suppliers to survive so maybe they need to realize that too. When all of the big names go down some smaller name may rise that offers more fair pricing. Who knows but many scenarios could emerge when you think about it.
All very well said
as an importer I can tell you that first Chinese factories work on much lower margins than USA / Europe do. Shipping costs run about 10 -15 % depending on duties. a 20 foot container cots $ 1200 to California or $ 2,000 to chicago , nyc. it can fits easily 10,000 box cars . .. Chinese labour is 1/30th USA unskilled costs.
I totally agree with you. I live in Denmark where model railways is even more pricier than in the UK, and as a guy aged 22, and this high pricing of locos and wagons is resulting in me (and other Danes) thinking of leaving this hobby. An example from Denmark is Heljan's model of the DSB MX loco, which they are now making a fourth run of, and they are still selling them at a high price (2399 DKK or 289 pounds for the cheapest model and it is with both DCC and sounds) as the last couple runs. When I bought my model or it (third run), it was when a retailer had bought all of the unsold models from Heljan at slightly more than the manufacturing cost and then sold them at 875 DKK or 105 pounds for a base model (DC).
Sadly it seems the same the world over
Very true but for me when I get something new it’s a treat as it’s so expensive
I‘d suggest you to try out the german manufacturer PIKO. Sometimes they have very high quality stuff for an affordable price. In their stores they sometimes sell for example locos in a damaged box, so it’s 30€ cheaper but still brand new and functional ;)
Thanks for the heads up
I have a question : Is it me or have Hornby products got really cheap looking and seem really rather flimsy...As a kid I'm sure Hornby was way better made....
I would buy a Deltic for 50£, even if it's not the era i'm interested.
I really like this video, i totally agree! Some coaches are just made of plastic and the prices are ridiculous. Even my father was shocked when hearing that the coaches and locos are not even metal, too expensive! (he remembers the old Marklin trains, which were metal)
Living in Italy makes things a bit more expensive, so i always look for second hand like at Hatton's, which is where i go the most, or Ebay. I got plenty of locos and coaches there at half the prices or less!
As a 22 year old just barely getting into this hobby, all of my Locos are in the sub $60USD range (45 ish GBP), and what little rolling stock I have are all pre-owned or dirt cheap wagons. The prices are absolutely absurd, and I sincerely hope these companies get smacked real dang hard on that bottom line real dang soon so they snap out of this absurd price model.
I totally agree with your opinion . I got back into the hobby in 2008 , after retirement and limit myself to second hand items . Being of engineering background I repair most of what I buy , because of cost . Commerce is the God of society and companies do not care much about children , as they target parents and grandparents . That is where they sell there products as children do not usually have income . Will it ever change ? I do hope so , because as a child in England in the 50's , there were things like this beyond my reach , and my parents reach . My latest beef is about shipping costs that have become out of control , and stop me purchasing from the U.K. now . Only recently has this happened and the excuse seems to be covid , the now universal excuse for all price increases .Keep up the good work and keep safe . Chris J .
Sadly we also have European suppliers claiming various Brexit costs! And Hornby have put some prices up by 30%+ in two years for no obvious reasons when inflation is 2-4%
US model trains usually start at or near 150 dollars if you want a good quality model which is 108.66 pounds.
That's the starting price for a very basic loco in the UK
I think the problem is two fold. A massively overcomplicated product range coupled with a small, saturated market. Years ago when the range was smaller, Hornby would have been able to sell larger numbers of the same model. This meant larger batches and a lower cost per model. Fast forward to now and the range is too big for the size of the market. Each item is being made in much smaller batches pushing up production costs and the price per unit. This, coupled with a massive used market restricting demand for new stock from casual hobbyists, is forcing Hornby and other manufacturers into a downward spiral of rising prices to counter a shrinking customer base.
To solve the problem, it could be argued that Hornby need to just shrink the range down to the size it was in the mid 80's, increase production of those core models to bring down the price and this would expand the market. It might do, except that I think Hornby would need to change the range annually to ensure the market for particular lines doesn't become saturated. It may also lose its wealthy enthusiast market, which currently seems to be the company's target market. To counter this, Hornby could produce small limited edition batches for pre order for enthusiasts. This essentially ensures there is an affordable mass market range and an expensive, collectors range, keeping everyone happy.
As for the 0-4-0 and four wheel carriage prices. I'm pretty sure the prices are inflated to keep them in line with Hornby's overall pricing strategy. Sell those too cheap and it undermines the brand and the price being asked for the more expensive models.
Just to say that all this is just my own personal opinion on what is going on.
I'm sure you are right, I just don't agree that the budget range needs to be the prices they are
Budget Model Railways If Hornby reintroduced the Tri-ang brand or launched a new brand for its budget ranges, it could do that without if having such a large effect on the prestige of the Hornby brand. They are highly unlikely to do that though as it would involve the cost of launching a new brand, selling existing models for a lower price and then hoping that translates to higher sales. It's a risk and Hornby's track record is that it is highly risk adverse.
Sadly I agree, it's a shame as looking at our response there are a lot if people who would buy a budget range. They already have all the mounds and tooling so,it wouldn't cost them much
Budget Model Railways Sadly I think we are more likely to see a chinese company doing this rather than Hornby. Then we will all watch as Hornby slowly goes out of business as they lose market share.
The only Chinese company I know of only makes high end locos, which while much cheaper than Hornby and Bachmann are still expensive. What annoys me is that Hornby have the old tooling and mounds and could do this Tommorow with little cost or risk.
Used to always buy Model Stuff New. Prices Rose. Now I buy half my stuff Second Hand. Bought a brand new Bachmann coach the other day £39.99. A week later, at a model railway show, old Lima Class 20 Br Green, £35. Runs Great. What's that say about prices?
Right ON. I have been sidelined for 14 yrs. Pulled out my stock and started back up. If I didn't have the loco's, cars, and DCC already in place, it would be impossible financially. Prices are crazy. 10 loco's, a 100 cars, DCC system and you have $5,000 spent.
The model shop in Eastbourne is a brilliant place, I spent hours in there looking at all the second-hand models. I stopped buying new 00-gauge models to keep (By the odd few for filming or reviews then sell them on)
I found Hornby Dublo which even though if your not careful it can be expensive, I have picked up some good deals on ebay and know have a sizable collection for the price of two or three new Hornby locos over the last decade.
Classic Rail in Ticehurst is worth a look he is very good on price and usually has shed loads of second hand
Not like the 80's and 90's when things were affordable :/
The technical side wasn't all that to be honest but with proper maintenance and attention its still fine.
I run locomotives in N scale that are older than I am.
I 'll go you one even better than that, the 60s and the 70s!!
I started off buying wagons and locos etc a few years before building a layout but nearly all my items were bought in sales or second hand or even damaged and they are euro trains made in the e.u the prices are quite expensive but the quality is very good. Some of the Hornby tooling is over 40 years old ... Hornby still sell some of these items today...it's just pure greed...
The Hornby Class 37 is a ridiculous joke, isn't it? I'm surprised that people still but them.
I remember for years asking for a train set but we didn’t have any room in our old early 80’s semi d. Got one at 13 but because of school its taken me 4 years to actually have the time and motivation. Doing LCA course and doing the groundwork of masking and painting trackbed,relaying the track, wiring, ballasting with sheet for my practical achievement task. I have also gone into wristwatch collecting
I’m 16 years old and living in Australia, so seeing those 4 wheel coaches at $30+ each is quite depressing, especially when I’m beginning a fairly large layout that is going to take a fair bit of cash out of my pocket for track, scenery and rolling stock in particular
N gauge seems to be worst. It's like smaller is more expensive.
That's why I gave up on n
A N scale loco is almost as complicated as an HO one, but the market is much smaller. That smaller market means higher costs per unit.
I have a union Pacific 416 diesel model, its old, but full metal chassis, some nutcase would probably ask 100 dollars for it, I would ask Mabey 12 dollors
(It was my dad's, I'm not selling it)
High prices have a really big impact on what hobbies the young people choose to go into, there are also other factors too. In highschool I pursued model planes as a hobby because my family gave me lots of model air crafts, my friends were also interested in aircrafts, and the price was pretty reasonable. The air crafts were also very easy to buy in my community. Model railroads were not offered in the community.
Which part of the world are you in?
Budget Model Railways
West coast US
I got out of the model Railway world and purchasing Items from hornby and other producers. The reason i did this was that it is much cheaper to make your own models. If you are going to get into model railways Learn to build your own. Cheaper and you learn a new skill.
me and my dad used to club together to buy a loco now and then... But the prices were around 60 - 100 pounds for a Bachman locomotive. Now those same locomotives are produced in China for alot cheaper and the prices are around the 100 - 130 mark. (reduced costs but increased shipping? ) The biggest problem now is that most of their stock sits on a shelf somewhere for 10 years before someone buys it.
Basically they model railway business took off again and they reverted back into the 1970's pricing game that killed the industry of model railways back then.
The computer industry did the same thing, they were expensive. Now you can build a PC for less than you can buy some train sets for. It is completely insane.
Trust me, it's expensive in the US too. Spent $500 for a starter digital set for newphew. Took him back to store yesterday, some figurines, a pack of two trees and one O-guage flat-car was $150. Low volumn and long time sitting on shelves may factor in here. I rememeber in college they said groceries have a very low markup as it moves so quickly, while clothing doubled every time it changed hands because it took a relatively long time to sell it. Maybe the jacked-up price is to give retailers a goodly profit assuming low-volume. It's VERY HARD to get kids off computers these days. Watch videos on Roblox and realize that that overly-simplisitc very bad game that makes Space Invaders look sophisticated TODAY is huge with kids. And it's horrible. But it's on the computer.
Perhaps the ultimate irony is that you can find high end kitbuilt locos (whitemetal and brass) on Ebay for less than the price of RTR.
Market Secret
Why Are Model Railways So Expensive?
Retail markup and tax add 200 -300% to the price that the shops buy from the suppliers.
Also, Returns and repairs are to costly in the modern market. It is far cheaper in product and employee time, just to send out a brand new product as a replacement.
200 to 300% markup on wholesale? How do you arrive at that figure? Show me the data.
I agree I was just looking for a railway foot bridge and one (the one I quite liked) was out of stock and the over one was £35.72!!!!!! I know that is crazy. The bridge I liked was £17.50 it should only be around £9.00. A station platform (one piece) was £7.50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These prices are better I saw a tendered locomotive for £45 bargain! Oh it was an LMS! So I am pretty fed up. Last night I was even thinking about stopping the hobby. Thank you for reading (if u are still reading). Thx :)
The prices certainly put you off, without second hand we would never have been able to do model railways
Hi
I agree with you on almost all points. As someone who is only part time in work and marring that up with college this hobby can seem to be against you. However new releases should be DCC ready in my opinion as it is the way the hobby will develop in my opinion, look at scalextric they have modernised all releases (to my knowledge) as it is the way that hobby seems to be moving, but in the railway world I believe it will allow more choice too. The older items (such as the 0-4-0) shouldn't be as that will only increase the price.
Is it time for a modelling revolution? I think so
Olly
I agree, But ask yourself why a relatively limited function chip should add £80-100 to a model? Or DCC ready should add £50?
My suggestion would be to make it them DCC ready, not fitted
Again it make allows more freedom and choice
Olly
But even DCC fitted adds £50, just for a small bit of electronics? I agree add it, I can see it provides more options etc, but it should not attract such a premium on price.
I get where you are coming from, but it's the way the hobby is heading in one form or another. Also how long has DCC ready been fitted to modern, new releases loco's? 10 years for Bachmann I believe, similar for Hornby too so the 'stock' DCC ready should begin to drop in price.
Notice I said should rather than will as there's a chance they won't, and I shall be made out to be but a fool
Has made me think though.....
OR
DCC has been around since 1992.
You’ll hate the prices of models here in NZ. If they were a direct comparison between the British Pound and the Kiwi $ I wouldn’t mind, but they aren’t. Your 50 pound loco in the UK will be around $150-200 here. Makes your channel a breath of fresh air! Keep up the good work!
I was a model rail enthusiast from childhood, I'm now 73. Not any more, too expensive!
its pretty darn expensive over here across the pond too Tommy
Hi yes, I was given the wrong info by a few commentators and it would appear to be a problem for your side of the pond. As you probably know, Tommy comes from a Rudyard Kipling Poem about the British soldier caller "Tommy Atkins", not so sure where Yank came from if anyone knows?
100 pound for a loco is a price i want so see here in germany .. new locos do not get much cheaper than 150 pound .. ok a admit they are made in germany (99% of them at least) and they are well researched and highly detailed but there are no entry lvl locos or sets .. the cheapest starter set i found was around 150€ with a single loop, DC Controller (very very cheap made DC controller ) and a DB or OBB Diesel Loco with 1 or 2 coaches .. at least Märklin came out with a Trainset in H0 made from "lego" Bricks :D .. that is awesome .. but this one is also priced with 122,99€ ... even at my local 2. hand store, you pay around 30-40€ for a pretty beaten up loco which does not even run smooth .. prices are way too high .. :(
I was into the hobby back in the 60's and 70's and had quite a collection of trains, including a Japanese Bullet train I got in Yokosuka Japan and Yokohama. Those days the train cars for the bullet were $25 each and the engine was $30, unfortunately could never run on american tracks as the wheel base for the tracks were different sizes. Later gave all my trains when the home I stayed in ended up being sold and my family wanted there share of the money. Back then a Bachmann diesel depending on type was $25 and some of the cars which were kit were $6..you could basically have about 60 dollars of trains and run on a decent system. But when I looked at the same style now costing around $250 to 300 made me wonder what the heck. I am a Ham radio operator and the most expensive HF(high frequency radio) costing $12,500 and the least expensive is $685 makes me find my ham hobby less expensive. When I follow the train shows I ask myself when a train is running how much is wrapped up in the 50 car group..must be more than $550
(from upstate NY, USA) I recently got back into the hobby after a fifty four year absence thinking to restore my old HO equipment and then build a DCC layout with new power, additional rolling stock, new track and turnouts, etc. etc. When I looked at the prices I was shocked! At the moment, I simply can't afford it.
I've also noticed that some models are cast from the same molds that were used in the sixties but are being sold for thirty to forty five dollars RTR. a tenfold increase. On sale they are over twenty dollars, a four hundred percent increase including shipping.
The hobby is now so expensive that I may not build a modern layout at all. I'll refurbish and detail what I have and decide about building a small layout later. Right now I've set up a temporary test track to run DC locomotives pulling refurbished and semi refurbished rolling stock.
Two nearby train oriented hobby shops, both run by elderly gentleman, have recently closed and I overheard the elderly owner of one of the last and maybe best shop in the area talking about closing the business. That would leave two small and struggling shops left. Both are run by elderly gentlemen and one is only open a few afternoons a week. I expect they will be closing soon too.
High prices and the distractions/activities available these days make attracting youth into the hobby nearly impossible.
Unless young people in large numbers enter it and prices come down significantly, it's probably doomed to at least near extinction.
Just FYI, there are lots of ONS Branchine Blueprint kits available now on eBay. I purchased three for about five dollars each. Although somewhat tricky to build, the results are well worth the time and effort. As people discover these gems, prices are going up. The retirement dates for the prototype cars range from the mid seventies for some cars to the mid eighties for others. If they fit the era you are modeling, I'd stock up :)
I get most of my parts from eBay, primarily NOS. The prices are good but often the shipping is more than the actual part and one vendor generally doesn't have all of what is needed so bundling is difficult. I'd rather buy from my LHS if they had the parts and save the shipping cost.
I've documented nearly all of my restoration and upgrade efforts on video which will be posted to youtube in the near future.
- dave
Additionall info to my previous comment:
Many large model railway producers were going bankrupty during the last decades. Hornby from England at several times too.
Other companies are Märklin, Trix, Fleischmann, LGB, and Arnold from Germany, Liliput and Roco from Austria, Lima and Rivarossi from Italy, Jouef from France.
Hornby brand is owned by the British Phoenix Asset Management (the Hornby Group) today. They are additionally owners of the brands Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold, and Electrotren from Spain. Several Hornby locos have the bodies of previous Lima models e.g. the new Hymek Class 31 with sound.
The new German owners (investors) of the Märklin brand are additionally owners of Trix and LGB.
Fleischmann is together with Roco part of a German-Austrian holding company today.
Liliput is part of the British Bachmann Group today.
A huge profit is the only interest of the new investors who are often no real model train enthusiasts so as the founders.
As with so many things , it's all about the investors making money and bugger the consumer.
Budget Model Railways - in the long run that strategy prices people out of the market and they end up with no sales at all. What are they going to do then? You can't make money if you're not selling product.
Even the biggest one in Europe : Marklin.
What Budget Model Railways said above sums it up succinctly :)
You have forgot ETS Train from Czech Republic, Tillig from Germany, Maloserijovky, from CZ, Merkur Toys, Igra Model... and plenty of other, it will depend on scale, but you perhaps could find some suitable budget models.
I totally agree with everything you have said, I am also disappointed with the quality of items, at the inflated costs...Simon
I have looked online for even starter sets in Canada and it is really pricey just for a small set with around 2-3 wagons and a small little loco and a small round track layout it costs around $200 Canadian and then an extra loco even a small shunting size loco is around $100-$200 Canadian it's just crazy if prices where lower it would possibly attract a lot more age groups in to the hobby
.
Been saying this since Hornby/ Bachmann / retail started the pre order came into being. Totally agree ..it is definitely putting off newcomers ...glad I am not alone...well said sir!
Very kind, thanks,and it's only got worse in the years since I made this video