High Prices are Threatening the Future of Model Railways
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2024
- A look at how the model railway hobby could survive in the future, possibly without retailers?
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0:00 Intro
0:24 High prices
2:29 Pros of having retailers
4:20 Model pricing
5:19 Cutting out retailers
10:18 Retailer's options
12:40 The future 
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I think the price of model's nowadays is mental - the hobby really is just not budget friendly nowadays - very informative video sam!
Sam pls review cavalex class 56 😊
YEP ITS DEFINITELY NOT BUDGET FREINDLEY
Thanks Jack - yeah some of them are getting silly - and the reasonably priced models we see prove that they're not necessary!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Brand new models, maybe, second hand however…
*Obvious bias*
Idea: let us buy your b1 premade
The amount of model trains and track I see both on Facebook marketplace and at various auctions, usually when someone has died, and the house contents go to auction. You really don’t need the latest shiny super duper super detailed item to enjoy a hobby. I buy old Airfix kits, the vintage range, cheap and cheerful. But good enough for me to enjoy building and painting.
But even secondhand stuff is going now at stupidly high prices. All wrong.
Indeed. Because of High prices, People like me, who want to start modeling in the future, might not be able to.
There's always second-hand, which can be a great way to start out before buying new, just saying.
Either way, it's still a brilliant hobby to get into, with a ton of advice out there, not to forget really helpful YT videos such as Sam's and others to help you along the way.
Enjoy the hobby Grasshopper!
@@calibrais second hand is okay, unless everyone else wants the S/H stuff, in which instance, the demand gets intensive and the price goes up.
The hobby's problem is a rise in the pay level of the labour market in the Far East, the demand from some customers for better quality & perfect models, plus the companies still want a high profit margin to keep their shareholders in clover...
Yeah second hand is better - but the prices aren't much better, and you open yourself up to other potential issues!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
No, 2nd hand is no longer 'cheap'. Unless modellers perception of cheap has changed. With about 2 years worth of 2nd hand eBay buying, I can tell you that the prices of things have almost doubled in that time. I've checked going back to old purchases and looking for the same. I do feel I've been incredibly lucky to have picked up lots during a cheaper time, I mean max I paid was £80 for 3 non runners which I then fixed, and I did get maybe 1 or 2 mazac grenades that I fell for, but majority wouldn't cost more than £30, few upto £50... 1 that I got pd off and caught in a bidding war and paid £60 for a black 5... 😂
Andrew Phibbs then they should become a private limited company
Even so called pre owned for sale at the big model retailers are ridiculously expensive . No wonder some shops are closing .
I think it’s crazy, I bought some LNER suburban for £30 8yrs ago, Hattons had them pre-owned for £109 each… I’d of been tempted to cash in if the rake wasn’t hard to reassemble now
That's right - some crazily damaged models even for sale for insane amounts... can't understand that!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Agreed. Second-hand prices are ridiculous, especially when the retailer admits a loco is a 'poor runner'. What's the point of buying at problem loco at any price?
@@robmckenzie2538 And thats why Hattons failed, all they had was overpriced second hand junk. It used to make me laugh when i would receive an email about a sale at Hattons and the only things on "sale" were the damaged junk they couldnt get rid of and even at the sale price it was still double what it was actually worth.
@@toekneekerching9543 Not only Hattons. I know a retailer which offers really ancient second-hand stuff probably purchased for peanuts at "ambitious" prices. To be fair, Hattons always served me excellently as an on-line customer for new gear. Likely that multiple factors, including falling out with Bachmann plus Hornby's odious '3-tier' system, squeezed them financially.
I used to visit the model shop in my town when I went to the Dentist for a checkup because the model shop was a short distance down the road! But my model shop closed in July 2023. The man in the model shop told me that the markup on many things was very high - 90% on some locos. The markup is rarely below 40% on most locos. I used to look forward to visiting the model shop when I visited the Dentist and coming out with something. The visit to the model shop made it a happy day for me. But in its last days, the prices in the model shop became ridiculous - £100 more than at Hattons. I could only come out of the model shop with a few tins of Humbrol! Thanks for uploading.
Thanks for sharing Allen - such a pity when model shops end up closing. And losing them is so hard for locals... so sad!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Made the dentist look cheap….
Hi there. I think one needs to be careful here. Markup is not profit and I doubt most high street one man bands even turn over enough to pay themselves a minimum wage.
Remember that the price that retailers have to charge includes shop rent: £2,000 pcm, heating, lighting, internet, phones, accountants fees, insurance, business rates, at least £2,000 per month. Staff: one person at the counter, one behind, pensions, NI, at least £4,000.
In other words even if they markup £50 per loco (unlikely) , they would need to sell 160 locos a month. The total profit on other items is inconsequential compared to locos, so doesn't really come into things.
So, a medium sized town of 50,000 people, even with a large hinterland is unlikely to be viable. They simply cannot survive unless the main manufacturers can churn out good quality but modestly priced locos that allow retailers to make around £8k a month.
There's your problem right there.
@@Andrew-vq9kg The model shop I used to go to was a one-man business. He owned the premises and didn't pay rent. He was not on the internet and only had a phone! The shop was often very busy when I went in there with parents with children. He sold mostly train sets. He only sold one or two expensive locos a week. If you wanted something such as a point motor or a tin of Humbrol, then he would have it. So going to the shop was happy days. However, the last time I went, he was listening to radio, and told me he hadn't had a single customer all day! I bought my first train from this shop - it was a Eurostar train set which formed the basis of my layout. I can't remember exactly what the price was, but I think I only paid about £65 for it.
Local shops closing isn't limited to model railways. Look at any high street. It's not Hornby that's causing it's us, the customers, buying more online. And online retailers have way lower overheads than brick and mortar stores.
Personally I love the convenience of everything delivered to my door and the way you can hunt down a bargain online.
The second hand market is getting out of control as well. Especially on eBay. I've seen sellers wanting $125-$150 for used DC N scale locomotives. DC!!! Not even DCC equipped!! And these are models from Atlas or Kato that could be a decade old already. And on the retail side prices are higher than giraffe booty! Obviously for reasons stated but that doesn't change the fact that wages have not gone up to come anywhere near to compensating for the massive inflation. My own model railroad purchases are going to be slowing down immensely because of it.
I think greedy dealers on ebay especially, are charging far too much for used wagons and carriages as well as locos, since Covid, prices have shot up beyond all reason, I'm just glad I spent hundreds on used locos and rolling stock over the past 4 years, before I finished building my N Gauge layout, but still it's cost me £15,000 plus and it's still not quite completer but I have all track needed, and I just need some more wagons, but I will be much more inclined to go without, rather than pay too much, as I am now a pensioner.
What I’ve noticed,when manufacturers increase their prices this is then reflected on eBay an example is Irish RTR OO gauge Murphy Models Irish Class 071/111 'Great Northern' locomotive-MM0111 asking £495 + £9.95 postage. When this loco was released a number of years ago it was selling for £135. Similarly its sister loco OO gauge Murphy Models Irish Class 071/112 sold for over £500. Second hand prices for Irish OO RTR is absolutely ridiculous. From what I can understand MM is re-releasing these models in limited numbers along with three variants of the Irish Rail 201 class.
I agree . I am a N scale collector from the states. The prices are ridiculous at the moment for used and old stock that is dc. The prices just 5 to 6 years ago were 1/3 of them now. It is pricing people out of the buy. Also on the sales side , eBay's rates are insane on each item to try and make money now.
Most stuff on eBay is higher than if you get it at a store or from another online store.
Absolutely right. People are paying good money for junk. Insane.
How I see it. Premium models are premium and they should be worth more.
What is killing the hobby is having basic models sold at a premium price, and kids, parents of said kids, teenage and adult modellers on a budget are put off by having what should be cheap models sold at such a high price. I for one would not pay 50£ for a basic 0-4-0 when 5 years ago they cost around 30. I know inflation has to be accounted for but selling railroad models around the 60-70£ mark would fill that gap in the market that right now does not really exist anymore...
Yeah I'd absolutely agree with that - there's clearly a market for the premium stuff, and much of it is amazing and worth the money. Many of the manufacturers don't produce simpler and more affordable models, and those that do, like Hornby, make them cost way more than they should. A lot of the Railroad models are ancient now, and yet they still command relatively high prices for what they are!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrainsnew Class 47 with HM7000 DCC sound fitted for £108 retail preorder.
Total bargain and hats off to Hornby.
No other manufacturer offers anything similar.
So true sam, its a shame. I got massively into OO at the start of lockdown, my first super high detailed steam loco was about 100 quid. Same thing now has nearly doubled. But i recently decided to get into rc flight, and 100 quid got me a 4 channel, brushless motored, ready to fly trainer plane. Its rediculous
Yeah that's right - £100 was about what I paid for my first really decent locos! Yeah that's it - and plenty of beginners would probably prefer the plane as it probably seems more fun!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@anorak1 yeh the prices have gone silly now, and it's just greed imo. It's all made in China regardless, so I can only assume the railways manufacturers are just ripping us off.
I have largely moved from model railways to RC planes lots more model for the money
But wages have gone up significantly in China.
@@MrHipwell1989Well they are not, as Hornby demonstrate with their struggle for profitability, whikst some of this struggle is down to commercial incompetence but much is down to declining value of the £, rising factory prices in China and increased shipping costs. Remember that all those separately fitted parts we want on our models need to be fitted by someone and that person deserves a living wage to do so.
100% correct, i remember Hornby going to China to produce them cheaper.. now look! I purchase plastic kits direct from China and still get them cheaper
Yeah - China isn't as cheap as it used to be... though some manufacturers seem to do better than others on price!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I am in my late 50s and my parents were working class. I was able to buy a Lima HO or OO locomotive in the late 70s/early 80s with a month of saved pocket money. Which was like 10 pounds (45 to 50 euros in today's money) per loco then.
The profit margins of these zinc-pest saturated, delicate and easily broken models made by children in China is massive compared to when they were made by adults in Europe and North America.
and guess what, the same Lima models are running on my layout today.
I may be a mid-20s man of Chinese ancestry, but I absolutely agree with you. That's why all my locos are 2nd hand!
Oh course I am not besmirching Chinese
workers. They have to live too. @@jmwoods190
Yep - even in the last few years it's become way harder to afford them - partly due to cost of living etc but also due to the cost of the models - a real shame :(
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Your comment is good apart from your racist bigoted outlook where you obviously haven't watched any videos of factory manufacturing and just parroted the usual xenophobic bigoted diatribe
Almost £2 a day pocket money would be wildly high today, but back then that was not unusual as people earnt on average a lot more than today.
I got out of High Street retail (not modelling) just over 15 years ago.
The rent & rates were crippling & not the only costs by any means.
We just couldn’t compete with online suppliers with minimal overheads.
All we seemed to do in the end was demonstrate product & answer questions to people who
had no intention of buying from us.
Frankly I’m surprised that so many Bricks & Mortar Railway model shops are still about but this doesn’t mean we’re doomed!
Businesses need to evolve,specialise,go online,social media & er yes RUclips coverage!
Thanks Sam
I'm a Retired retailer too and you hit the right nails firmly on the head!
The outrage at a 70 to 90% margin makes me laugh....
thing is not everyone is online, though many assume they are, they shouldnt
@@andygozzo72 I know that but what’s your solution & who’s going to pay?
The internet has completely changed the high street & not in a good way.
@@ianbusby2845 i know it hasnt, and i doubt theres any viable solution....rents/rates will continue to rocket unless laws are brought in to cap them...
I was in high street bricks and mortar retailing too, for 27 years. Second covid lockdown finished us off and we shut shop. In hindsight it did us a favour. spent many years demonstrating pretty expensive items only for people to go and buy them online from elsewhere, even at the same price. Jeff Bezos has not only played a huge part in shutting high street shops but has also managed to fill amazon with dangerous fake chinese rubbish, the ongoing enshittification of the internet and how we live.
With Bachmann's Prices. They are the same way here in the states.
Ill give a example with the N-Scale Norfolk and Western J-class.
The models a few years ago were around $140 USD for a Non DCC version of the model. and the Sound fitted versions were around $200
NOW the SAME model, which was introduced as a Spectrum model way back in 2006! and is now under their Sound value line since the Spectrum line was Discontinued, with DCC sound (And cheap DCC at that) is Nearly $500. At a $479 USD MSRP.
Bachmann is nuts with their prices in the US. They really drive me crazy with their HO Scale train sets. The retail price is very high and they are still using plastic wheel sets and the old steel track with black roadbed. SMH
Here in Canada Bachmann’s USRA 0-6-0 retails for well over $100, which is insane given that the tooling for the model dates back to I believe the 70’s, albeit with some changes to the chassis over the years. Diesel’s aren’t much better either with entry level models going for $90-$100. I really don’t know how they expect people to get into the hobby when even the most basic locomotives cost almost as much as a car payment.
Yeah their full prices are crazy - I just can't afford them at all until they come on special!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@tempertantrum6464 really? For me (in Canada, at retailers) a Bachmann diesel is about $150 and the USRA 0-6-0 is close to $200! What store do you order from, those prices sound better at least than where I’m buying from.
@@ModelRailwayFan38 Walthers has an EMD GP15 on Amazon for $95, and a GP9 for $109. I buy pre-owned usually, so I don’t really know if that’s a great deal or not, or what actual model train retailers offer.
Here's how you know it's in trouble... I CAN afford it, and I noped out. I'm 53, empty nest, mortgage paid off, looking at retirement in the not too distant future, plenty of room in the basement to play, and was thinking about rekindling the model railroading I used to do with my dad. Been doing some research as of late, even downloaded AnyRail to start playing, but as soon as I started totaling up what I was thinking even for a moderate layout... no freakin' way. I'll just enjoy this one vicariously through other's videos.
Yep similar....s'pose always E bay second hand
@@daveco4645 Even second hand is silly money now, I just can't justify paying the kind of money being asked even though i can afford it.
Yeah, this. I'm lucky enough to have reasonable disposable income, but I can't bring myself to blow thousands of pounds on, well, toys. I'm building a very modest layout and carefully buying a few secondhand items from Ebay and fairs.
Very true - I'm retired and my wife & I came to the UK from Canada last year. My wife gave me a OO loco for Christmas (I used to have Hornby 3-rail back in the day). I've started to buy rail etc to create a layout but at these prices I may just buy a case for the loco and leave it on the mantle piece :(
It’s true. A £10 loco in 1975, would cost £75 in today’s money. Now I know the product has improved, but production costs have applied new technology to reduce costs. While logistics costs with production now in the far east adds a bit. A top price product should be around £100 not £200/250.
As someone who returned to the hobby as a result of the Covid lockdowns. I have built a fleet of locos and rolling stock mainly using EBay, and retailers bargain buys. Yes you might have to do a service and a bit of fettling, but (that to my mind) is itself a fun part of the hobby.
Physical retailers are so thin on the ground most of us have no choice but to buy online.
Yeah absolutely - those 1975 locos were at the cutting edge of the technology of the time... just like today's models are! They weren't designed on computers, and I assume the level of mechanization was lower back then too!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
It's not just the loco's and rolling stock that the retailers sell, it's all the other stuff you need for your model railway, (scenery, buildings, signals, kits, paints, tools and lots more stuff that you can buy in small quantities which is less hassle than buying online, so if we loose the retailers then all of the bits and bobs you need will go as well. You can just pop to your nearest model shop if you need something quick, so I say we should support our retailers.
As someone who has grown up with (and still models primarily) 0 scale, the price increases in that segment are similarly crazy in recent years. $1500-2500 steam locomotives used to be the exclusive purview of brass manufacturers like Sunset but are now common even with Lionel. I do genuinely think that, regardless of scale, eliminating the retailers is a colossal mistake for the hobby’s survival. Unless one has a family member already into model trains, the retailers are one of the only methods to really draw in new blood.
There's only one manufacturer selling locomotives with an MRP below £100 (unless you want something with a smiling face on the smokebox door) and that's Hornby, indeed they do models under £50 and full train sets for under £80. The rest, their loco prices kick in from around £120 to bonkers. Without Hornby, the entry point would be Peco track, basic Gaugemaster controller and say an 0-4-0 and three wagons. Better quality sure but no change from £300.
I’m with you on that. I can moan about a few things Hornby do, but they are the only ones who offer a simple and affordable starter set.
Hattons is the exception rather than the rule, they went into decline because of 2 major factors. They didnt sell either hornby or Bachmann and their shop had become a junk shop for over priced and often damaged ,second hand rubbish and on top of that they never had anything in stock! I used to use Hattons over other retailers without question but i havent used them for at least 5 years. Basically they never had anything i wanted.
I had a quote off Hutton’s to buy all my locos. 27 engines of which all but one were setup with Zen sound decoders. They offered me £680 for over £3500 worth of locos. Totally lost faith in them after that.
.
I feel the same, they never had anything I wanted in stock! so I never ordered anything from them in the last 5 years either.@@mikejj101
@@mikejj101 To be fair, you can't expect to get the full value of your collection if you are hoping a retailer to buy it from you. They are buying it to resell it themselves, not to purchase for their own collection. They have to make a profit and the lower price ensures they profit while on the other hand you are essentially paying them to take the risk and hassle of reselling your items off your hands. Not saying you have to take their offer, but that is what to expect when selling to retailers. If you want full value then you got to put the work in yourself and sell directly on eBay or other avenues. That or go consignment or find an auction house that specializes in selling trains.
In my opinion, it started about 25 years ago when "super detailed" models started being released by manufacturers for an, understandably, much inflated price to cover the cost of development. Fine, your wealthy retired civil servant could afford to add these marvels to his collection, while the rest of us were still happy with all our rebranded Triang stuff.
But then manufacturers enjoyed the sniff of extra money - and within a decade, all the budget models disappeared, replaced ultra-super-retooled-extra-thingy versions, priced now exclusively in that higher bracket. The hobby became about limited editions and keep the riff-raff out pricing, instead of fathers and sons playing with a train set.
Well look where we are now. Twenty years of this type of operation has led to pretty much all casual interest in the hobby disappearing. Toys'r'Us and Smiths used to stock Hornby train sets, but they disappeared from the shelves about 15 years ago due to lack of sales.
The hobby will continue to decline in popularity whilst manufacturers remain fixated with producing expensive perfect models that take years to develop, instead of also producing a line of solid, budget "good enough" trains. It's quite telling that every loco me and my son own are either original 70s/80s/90s models, or more recent reuses of those old toolings.
With one exception - I treated myself to a Bachmann O4 about 6 years ago for about £160 from Hatton's and whilst it looks pretty, as a working model it's just pretty awful - I've since seen your review of this model and agree whole heartedly about just how bad it is on a mechanism level. To lay out the equivalent of a month's food shop for a model that doesn't really even work is a kind of lunacy I'm not prepared to go through again.
Sam. Great video. Its not just prices that are high, the QC is terrible. In the last month alone i have had to return and get a refund for my Accurascale 92. The pantograph servo’s packed up, and this was the 2nd loco after having the same problem with my original model. My Rapido 15xx had an awful stalling problem, again swapped for another and the problem still persisted. Both brand new models, both gone for refund. Reliability is appalling poor for expensive good looking locos.
My grandchildren have all now grow up and no longer have interest in our hobby so last year I took one of the hardest decisions and dismantled my large layout and sold it off. …. I now feel I did the right thing (sadly) at the right time 😢
Price fixing is rife across all industries even though it's illegal. The retailers are told "don't discount this" or "these are the rules follow them". There is never anything in writing because it's illegal. The retailers are kept in line by the manufacturers by either cancelling their preorders, by refusing to sell to the retailer or cutting the quantity the retailer can order. If any one complains, it's "market conditions". Without a supply of products or a very much reduced one, retailers struggle to stay in business.
Yeah I've heard the same thing from retailers too - pretty sure it's happening but can't show a document proving it
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Speculation hearsay@@SamsTrains
Rules are only as good as thier inforcement. Which in cases like this, is woefully inadequate...
absolutely right
6 or 7 years ago (don't remember exact year but Fleischmann still manufactured HO products at that time) one well-known German shop made an announcement that they reduce price on all Fleischmann and Roco stuff to 20% or so (there was some really generous reduction). But the next day they made an announcement "We are sorry, but we have to cancel this reduction because it's against the rules".
It used to be stack them high sell them cheap. Now it's stack Beatles special addition models high, have low stock of everything else, with high prices, panic when nobody buys them, and make the next product even more expensive to cover the losses.
Hey Sam. I live in Europe and grew up with Märklin. Now, I sold everything except three locos as memory. With the new money, I bought from Hattons. British stuff is far less expensive than European stock. That and the colorful liveries made me collect British models. But ever since Covid, the prices are absolutely ridiculous in some cases. The Hornby 8F, an ancient tooling, costs almost the same as the brand new P2 which is objectively superior in every way. I still like to drive to the model shop, even though it's 40 minutes away. I grew up with that shop. The owner knew me since I was 8 and he's a really nice guy. Now he moved because he expanded the shop. While he isn't too fond of Hornby or OO, because here HO Gauge rules, he still says he tries and encourage people around my age or younger to join the hobby and gives me advice on modelling. However, the fact is that even the most basic 0-6-0 tank engine, the German BR 89, with tooling which dates back to the 60s, is being sold at 110€. Granted, it's DCC fitted and 80% of all European stock is. With sound and all. This is bad because I run on an analogue controller, making most of these flashy features inaccessible or very limited for me. So when I first got onto Hattons thanks to you, I immediately got started to build my collection. About 1200£ and countless orders later, I am here today. Some of the best deals were from Hattons. The Smokey Joe train set with onr wagon missing it's wheels and the trackmat I won for 26£ on the marketplace or a Wrenn 4MT for 28. Thier kind service helped me stay with the retailer, even though it's a long distance internet purchase. Because my model shops and the big distributor won't stock British stock, I have no choice but to order online or once a year when I visit the UK I go into model shops. Last year I visited Junction 20 in King's Langley and the owner was really cool. He admired my interest in trains and had good prices. I bought 100£ worth of stuff, including third radius curves, a Railroad Evening Star and a lot of wagons. Its still one of the best runners today. So while I order online, I do so at retailers. But in the end, the ridiculous prices for the railroad Jinty, J83 or the little 0-4-0 is driving young people away from the hobby. My entire collection consists of pre-owned models. Some didn't run but I fixed them all myself. I enjoyed that a lot. But of course, a newcomer won't buy an old 1950 Princess from Tri-ang, they will buy a new starter set, probably with an 0-4-0 which is quite expensive nowadays. Then it's quite difficult for them to afford a larger loco like a Black 5, Class 37 or others. I mean, yes, the Railroad and Railroad Plus range are here, but even the 14xx which I will buy costs quite a lot for a nearly 50-year-old tooling. It's still nowhere near as bad as in Europe, though. So even with the price increases, it's just about bearable for me. But if it continues in the next year or so, even will have to throw the towel and simply won't buy new stock. But yeah, great video explaining the retailers. I think this hobby will not survive for a long time without them. The advice, overall experience the fact that you can look at the model in person is invaluable for me. But let's hope that Accurascale and Dapol will make it so that other brands slow down with the prices, because value for money gets more and more important nowadays. A pretty serious video, but I'm glad you have brought it up. Let's all hope for better times.
How does the European model railway market work? The prices are ridiculous but they still seem to be doing quite well.
@@azuma892 I think it's mostly catering towards people with deep wallets and overall older people who can afford such prices. If it wasn't for the dad buying his son a starter set, I don't see anyone below the age of 30 most of the time. Like how the Trix Flying Scotsman costs over 500£ if I'm not mistaking. They sold out before they got to the retailers. But for me who is a casual enthusiast who can't shell out 400€ for a locomotive, British stock is the only thing left. However, I enjoy them a lot more. Simpler models, much more liveries (because 90% of German steam locos are all black and red), the play features and the price made me stick to British Railways. You can't buy something as detailed as a Rapido Iron Mink for 30€ here. The budget range from Märklin my World/Start up is decent, but they recycle the same old tooling again and again without anything exciting like a big pacific or something. That, the lack of variety and mostly boring livery (opinion) and finally the high prices made me sell almost everything I had for Hornby, Tri-ang and Mainline stuff.
Yah I agree. German trains are sooo boring, most steam locos are black with red wheels, modern stuff is mainly comprised of white InterCity and red regional stock. I don't get why they have a huge following, even in overseas market. Where I'm from retailers who stock foreign models mainly sell European outline with occasional American stuff. Aren't British prototypes more aesthetically pleasing? That said, I'm lucky enough to pick up the Trix Scotsman at a much lower price, it is fully die-cast and have nice DCC features. Maybe European modellers prefer to have more DCC functions to play with, so they are willing to sacrifice looks and value for that?
@@azuma892 I think the reason why the European models are popular is because of the daily interactions some have. Some, like my friend, collects swiss locomotives because he likes the swiss railways and the daily drive to work. How many swiss engines do I have? One. But yeah, that's more less if you ask a German modeller, most likely it's all DB but for me, British, Japanese and the occasional American models are my favourite. Recently I got excited for DCC Sound and I have an ESU Sound decoder for Flying Scotsman underway. I have the Dublo USA Tour model which is absolutely beautiful, the one version I have always wanted and soon, it will come to life with new sound. But in Europe, most engines come pre-fitted with sound. I like to buy analogue and see how the model is like. If I love it a lot, I will upgrade it to DCC sound. That's part of the reason why I got an Evening Star for 85£ last year (the Railroad one) which I think is a brilliant deal considering how large the 9F is. For the same money you're lucky if you find a BR89 which is absolutely tiny in comparison in Europe. Most people I have talked to despise British models, especially Hornby, because of their "lack of quality and cheap build". While some are guilty of this (P2, 4F, 2P or 72xx), some are brilliant like the King Class, Class 60 Diesel or others. I mean, let's put it like this: I'd rather pay 150£ for the J36 I pre-ordred, get a diecast locomotive and be happy about it. Sure, there is a chance for sloppy decoration or the odd glue mark (my Dublo Scotsman has glue marks, fingerprints and messy boiler banding which sucks, but since they sold out so fast getting a replacement would be too tough), but if it's nothing mechanical, I am happy to live with it. Because while having perfection is great, I won't pay 3-4 times that amount for a perfect example.
I would highly recommended someone starting out in the hobby to start and stay (for a while) in the 2d hand market. Loads of bargains out there, even complete existing layouts.
This! My last few model loco purchases have been second hand - one being sold by a modeller on Tiktok, and the other an eBay purchase. Both were DCC sound fitted locos that were significently cheaper than buying either model brand new DCC ready, and the thing is, as much as brand new models have amazing levels of detail, lots of models in the past decade are already super high quality anyway, so you aren't really losing much out for buying a slightly older model? the loco I got on eBay was a Bachmann Class 37/4, from about 2015 I think, and the model is excellent - I'm sure if you put it side by side with the brand new Accurascale model it'd start to show a bit of age, but on its own it's a fantastic model regardless. And given how much cheaper it was for me to buy versus buying a brand new Accurascale 37 (or even the retooled Bachmann one, yikes!), it was a no brainer.
Hattoons were selling dodgy stuff at crazy prices since covid. But at least the boxes were described as nice.
I think there are a lot of social changes too and unfortunately trainset are just not the "thing" anymore. I'm a father to a 5 year old and he doesn't have the same exposure to trainset than i had growing up. Gone of the days where toy shops regularly stored starter bundles for Hornby, Scalextric, Meccano and to a lesser extent Airfix. Without that inroad then the pool of potential hobbyist is shrinking.
Then you add to that my generation often do not have fond memories of Railways growing up they were crowded, expensive, late, dirty etc.... then why would i want to model that in a spare room?
The list or challenges is very long and we haven't touch on other impacts of 3D printing on retailers, recovery from covid (read into the struggles of the Cycling industry for that impact) the average age demographic of the hobbyist.... All these challenges are soo open to "whataboutism" and granted there options and these are the things that need to be championed. things like
Clubs,
Heritage lines
Events (local and national)
Secondhand market
budget options.
Etc and maybe the hobby can change, it might not be how we know it today. Yet there is one thing we are and that is passionate.
I don’t have memories of dirty trains but plenty of memories of dirty PEOPLE using them
Nice comment Peter. Your right with many of your points; no entry for children into the hobby, very few clubs, even fewer clubs focused on children, exposure of the hobby to coming ages not apparent.
My local model shop has just recently found a Hornby catalogue from 1975 and has compared the prices and average wages with today's prices and wages and there is very little difference in cost , but you compare the poor moulding quality of a loco and unrealistic detail of a 1975 loco with today's models are far superior. As regards model shops mine is bucking the trend and has moved to larger premises, it's always busy and at the moment organises small in house model shows , he also has a loyalty card system with which gives a generous discount.
You tease up what's it called.
Malcs models of Ilkeston
I find myself buying from the second hand section of my local model railway shop, whenever they receive a loco, be it through donation or trade in, it gets a full service, motor check, lubrication the works before its put out on display. And despite the age the loco runs as if brand new.
Im lucky to be in a financially set job but even then i cant always justify the cost of spending that much of my wages in one go for brand new models.
Just about every item on my layout has come from Hattons preowned, now I am bombarded with emails offers of rolling stock at a simply unaffordable rate so glad I went back to the hobby several years ago rather than now
Yeah second hand stuff is super expensive now too - I personally wouldn't pay that much for used models!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I had a 00 railway layout when I was younger and I am in my fifties now and wanted to get back into the hobby but the price of trains is way beyond my pocket.
Great analysis, Sam. Railway modelling has served me well for at least five decades, and it must be worrying that people like myself are taking an extended break from it. Prices are simply unaffordable. That's both new and second-hand, and includes all ancillaries, so even concentrating on e.g. scenery is not an option. But there are other issues. Since manufacturing moved to China and the main suppliers expanded their ranges beyond railway modelling, customer service and thoughts of listening to user feedback have been totally abandoned. Who has ever asked us what we would like to see produced? I have never managed to recreate a realistic LMS or LM Region express passenger train, for example,. True, Hornby's Coronation coaches are superb, but why no Stanier composite coaches etc.? Instead we now have Victoriana and toys. Choices of liveries produced are similarly bizarre. So, the choice of retailer or direct makes little difference. What's needed is a business which understands customer service and that, of course, includes sensible pricing.
As Norway's largest model railroad influencer we just started a new project. For that I had buy some tracks, when i went picking them at my dealer, I had a shock. On our main layout we completed track work in 2019, so I hadn't bought anything in over 4 years. Inflation and bad exchange rate, made that I paid over 30% more than I used to.
Got a special a deal because I'm very good customer and had to put a sponsoring deal on the top.
Unfortunately it threatens everyone’s hobbies across the board old bean - Every avenue of recreational life is getting squeezed tighter and tighter, though we allow ourselves to be treated like idiots in this country and I’ve always had the feeling that model railway stuff, in comparison to other live models, has always taken the James Rydell somewhat, what? I do feel for the folks who’ve been squeezed out of whatever recreational hobby they had because there’s just no financial room to manoeuvre… That way madness lies I reckon.
Thanks for sharing John - I think it really shows when some manufacturers do their best to bring us models at a good price - Accurascale are great for that!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I don’t hate Accurascale, but I think we need more companies offering budget models, and less companies pulling out as detailed models as possible. Let the modellers do their own “detailing”, or have them build kits if it bothers them that every detail is not present…
That's a darn helpful material for modellers starting their journey and the experienced ones. We need to try our best to keep the hobby spinning. In my opinion various reatilers are essential for people outside of the UK. Not everyone provides international shipping, we need to keep that in mind! Great video, have a great day Sam :)
A close friend owns one of the new manufacturers on the block. Their locos are very sought after but it is their customer service that keeps customers coming back for more. They don't just build locos - they build relationships. They only sell their products direct - simply because larger retailers, like Hattons, would inevitably try to undercut the price. It is precisely that practice that put many of the smaller "bricks n mortar" model shops out of business. There are a lot of people who are not sorry to see Hattons fall.
Thank you Sam for Covering this! I am sick of hearing the "its because of age" thing over and over. Thank you so much
Thanks for exposing these things, Sam,
I've been saying the hobby is in transition for a while and hardly anyone has taken any notice or even said there's no problems or even been happy about it.
The 'see no evil, carry on regardless' are enabling the manufacturers (of whom there too many of for the hobby to support) to alienate the less affluent of enthusiasts who will find other things to do and leave the retired or highly-paid with large disposable incomes admiring their over detailed, over digitised 'gin-palace' rolling stock.
However, I couldn't care less about the box shifters who are part of the problem that has built up over some time, I care about small retailers who, as you pointed out, are a face to face service with advice.
Hi Sam. I live in Australia and the MASSIVE problem we have is postage. It cost almost as much as the model sometimes. I believe we need hobby shops, however I totally understand that they just can’t afford the overheads.
yep freight has gone from 100USD to 300USD. even a Blueami card cost 700AUD delivered for the 4408
Freight from the UK too. The UK used to be one of the cheapest countries to buy model supplies, trains, etc from due to decent prices and low shipping. While it hasn't quite crept to the insane US levels (or our own shipping outward) it is getting closer very quickly.
I model in Japanese N and to make the shipping cost worth it I typically have to buy in lots that fill out a specific package volume that ends up coming up to approx $300-$500 per shipment. Can't just get a random catalogue or single item or it'll cost several times more in shipping, and the local retail selection of Kato is just straight up double the price of imports.
Sam just want to say , I thought your comments were very well considered and constructive . I would be happy with top quality motors ,and most detail in a packet , if the perfectionist wish to add them later , eg sprung buffers or a sliding air vent in the roof have never added much to the enjoyment of my hobby.
Very well presented and stated Sam, great stuff. You really know the model railway world well!
A few thoughts Sam. First of all, we really do think that the British model train scene has been spoilt for decades in a sense that too much has been expected at a super-low price. It's just totally unrealistic and was evidently to change or go under (Hornby). China has been on an economic ride up of ~9% annually. In 2015, signs already showed that it soon would no longer be the place for cheap low quality products. China goes blitzing fast by nature.
Then there is the OO market which is too small (isolated) for such an enormous load of brands. Hattons for example aren't closing; they are moving to the US under an existing US name bought by the owners because of the big H0 market over there.
Another big issue is that, having seen some British factories and offices, they most often seriously lack modern automated processes essentially driving up cost substantially. They just hardly invest rationally on future cost awareness. Just take a look at factories from PIKO, Märklin and see the high-tech automated processes all over the place. They just keep investing for the future. Then have a look at totally archaic and face-palming practices in the factories of Hornby, Rapido...
In Germany, the model companies work together instead of fighting each other. E.g., Märklin and PIKO are doing some joined developments, also worked with Hornby. Their reasoning: "It's the rational thing to do". PIKO therefore can still offer excellent value for money at ~100 Euros and less for their basic models (still very good looking) of steamers and bobo diesels...
Investment, investment, investment, rational smart long-term focus business practices, not clinging on to the past but be constantly progressive and move on fast all the time...
The German model rail manufacturers have figured the bigger picture out that the other stuff hobbies is competition for them too and therefore decided to work together or they as separate bankrupty cause of their arrogantly. As I pointed out in a thread we gotten so much now to go for our money nowadays vs like not even that long ago like 2 decades ago we didn't have as much. Model rail manufacturers should adapt or they be force to bankruptcy.
Hattons owned a shop called model rail stuff here in the States and that has ceased trading ad well
@@suninn22 They ceased their businesses by the names of Hattons and Model Rail Stuff..., but kept the rights of M.B. Klein's Inc name in the US with their November acquisition last year. Doing a major acquisition overseas and then reviewing the books for pulling out completely within just two months is of course not what any business would do. Instead, a plan for the future would evidently be developed under the table..., since one want to get rid of staff, unwanted assets, creditors and taxation, etc... Lots of legal stuff to consider which can not be shared openly...
@@lindaoffenbach They have shut down MB Klein's as well. They're completely pulling out of the game.
@@lindaoffenbach Hattons wanted more into US. The timing and the fact they wasn't healthy themselves led to them going out as well.
I can remember taking a plunge into the hobby around 2006/07 after a gap of 30yrs.
Back then, I could get a nice Hornby 7MT "Britannia class" loco for a discounted £79" from Hattons. You'll struggle to find a used one for less than £120 now. Obviously the labour cost has inflated, but then everything seems to have increased, unlike people's wages!
Yeah absolutely - I remember seeing those prices too. Oh yeah, easily over £120 for a used Britannia now for sure!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
See it the other way around: They were just way too cheap back then..
@@macnavi but they weren't as the companies were in better fianical positions than they are today
@@Alex-cw3rz How do we know if that was so and why? We can only guess? Maybe it was much cheaper to manufacture. The models were simpler. The customers didn't demand the same quality then as they do now. They even could get away with simple models and there was no RUclips to do what Sam does, showing the perceived flaws. For years British models were inferior to European made models and they were already more expensive then as British models are now. Current UK prices are still cheap from a European point of view.
Chinese wages have increased dramatically in that time period.
They are still around 1/4 of our minimum wage (U.K.) though.
Great video as always Sam really enjoy your videos. The hobby has definitely got to pricey so I won’t be able to by many locos this year only new ones I will get will be the port of par twins I preordered
Excellent video Sam!
This was a informative video. I keep my outgoings down by purchasing second hand at shows and toy fairs. Some stallholders are open to reasonable offers and can give advice. The downside is that you cannot get the most up to date models. The well known auction site is not good for prices however!
the well known auction site has got worse lately price wise
hi sam im from ireland and theres a new irish train coming out the 181/141 class I would like to see you review it if you want
Great channel sam thanks for your time and effort 👍happy modelling
Old boy 😊
Brilliant, mature observation, of a hobby in difficulty.
We have to budget, look after our stock, and count our blessings. Thanks Sam.
Here in the US we lost many of our local hobby shops during the post 2008 recession. There is at least one nationwide chain (HobbyTown) and a few local shops but most sales are via internet vendors. I personally have not been to or made a purchase at a local hobby shop (except the chain) in over a decade and buy 99% of my hobby products via the internet. So gird your loins and get ready to see your local shops bite the dust. I suspect some such as Rails will soldier on a while due to their extensive internet sales operation, but then I would also have said that about Hatton’s.
PS-you might want to consider a new career direction.
Sad but true. Recently, the last hobby shop in New York's Capital Region (population 800,000 plus) closed its doors. It's the internet, large train shows such as Springfield, Mass and EBay. The lack of local expertise is an unfortunate loss.
Ahh that's sad to hear - there does seem to be a big shift towards online sales. Yeah I think those retailers with a decent online presence hopefully have a future!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I need to step in where I can sell more affordable models like what you are for oo scale Sam. People like you and me can make more affordable models so we can keep the hobby thriving as a community.
The retail market place has changed - we now watch youtube for reviews and advice on new products increasing the confidence of simply purchasing online be it direct or not. What the retailers offer me as an overseas customer is consolidation of different items from different manufacturers into a single shipment, correct handling of VAT and prompt friendly remote service. I share the price concerns but the hobby is still thriving and as I have never visited a UK retailer in the last 10 years I spread my orders around different retailers... keep up the great videos that promote the hobby
When ever I can I much rather go to a shop, where I can see the item(s) and ask questions if I feel I need more advice, say for recomending a DCC decoder. Sometimes you can see second-hand (pre owned) products, and therefore see the candition of the model for yourself, rather then just seeing photos. In some shops they can offer to test run a loco for you. I would usually do this if buying a second-hand loco. It's more or less the same for everyday shopping, I don't order my food shopping online, I go to the local shop, where I can pick the best quality items.
It's been years since I bought a new train, simply because I can't believe how much my local hobby shops are charging for them. On the other hand I've managed to score several eBay bargains over the last couple of years - barely run like-new trains, but from a few years ago.
Hornby is suffering from no real entry range anymore - Railroad used to be entry level more basic models and prices as such... Buy they've kept inflating the prices.
Hello Sam, very interesting video...I am from Germany and in this hobby since 1970, as a kid I could only afford me brands like Lima and Jouef..now again it is the same problem: märklin, piko and roco do make beautiful models in HO, but specially steamengines do costs 350 at the least, with digital sounds 450 euros or even more. I allways wonder why you are " unhappy" about hornby loco-prices...200 pound seemes ok. for me...still then I agree with you about retailers going out of Business. I have to drive at least 150 kilometres to find a good retailer...so I buy nowadays secondhand stuff at ebay...thats what I can afford: 30 euros locos, or a vew waggons for 10 euros.
Keep up the good work, sincerely
Bob
I agree. I think UK models used to be extraordinarily cheaper than continental models. Now they are just a bit cheaper! But the quality has also krept towards that of continental models.
I gave up buying new a few years ago, and pre owned from big retailers are just too expensive as well, instead I go to 'toy fairs' which happen practically every weekend around the country. (eg Doncaster on Feb 18 ) There I can find excellent ( you can take a good look at them) pre owned, sometimes unused train items at much lower prices. If I buy from a regular stallholder , I know I can take it back if there is an issue.
I forgot to add, I live in Australia, and we don't have garden railway shops. So the British shops are the only way to find out what's available.
My thinking is that the prices have gone up but so has the detail in the models. I've been collecting N gauge locos for 50 years and some of the older ones are very simple. The modern ones are dripping with fine detail. If that high level of detail is putting the price up then maybe there's an opportunity to sell models in two tiers - cheaper, with minimal detail, or expensive with super-realistic detail. 9 year-olds entering the hobby don't usually count rivets!
Some people want to "play trains" and the level of detail is not important, others want hyper-realistic dioramas and "need" the detail.
There is also the thinking that "we can jack up the prices, sell fewer products and still make the same overall profit" - that is a well-know slippery slope to disaster.
You are spot on Sam, high prices are killing our hobby. What a refreshing change to hear someone telling it as it is. More closures of both manufacturers and model shops are inevitable.
Thanks Howard!
What really worries me is that so many in the model railway community are in denial and refuse to acknowledge that their hobby faces an existential threat.
The industry needs to think. Most of the purchases I make are paint, odd bits of track, replacement wheels, scenery. I go into a shop (usually rails). The big manufacturers will loose badly if the retailers not there to supply all the other things you want in the hobby.
Thank You for sharing this very informative video with us.
There is another factor, and that is the level of detail and features on modern models. Back in the 1960s I had Tri-ang and Tri-ang Hornby stuff and it was well made and lasted long enough that I still have some of the trains in working order. They're nowhere near as sophisticated as modern offerings, with moulded handrails, simplified valve gear, far fewer separate fitted parts etc, but crucially they look like models and not toys - and certainly not babyish like Hornby's Playtrains. My grandchildren, ranging from three to ten years old, are perfectly happy to spend the day playing with them without feeling insulted. I know Hornby Railroad is supposed to fill that gap but it's still too expensive. Yes, we've had inflation, but I bought my Tri-ang Hornby Britannia new for under a fiver. There's definitely a market for top notch models, but they're too delicate for kids as well as being way, way too expensive for them. If you really want to kill something, make sure that new generations of customers are pushed out of the picture. And in answer to anyone who says that kids are only interested in video games, I have found the exact opposite in that they really appreciate playing with something that is real.
That's true - models are more complex than before, so it makes sense that the prices are higher. But this has knock-on effects, and one of them is that many cant afford new models any more!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
This is the key factor. We used to buy kits or RTR and add the details ourselves. To me that's the hobby. Now all the detail, DCC and sound have made models inaccessible for many. They are certainly not toys anymore! And the kit manufacturers are mostly gone.
Stick with TRI-ANG built to last and can be refurbished will run on code 100 and will convert to DCC if required. But DC is still fun. Plus that extra level of satisfaction bringing old loco or rolling stock back to life.
Trouble is most releases today are what once upon a time would have been called " LIMITED EDITION ".
Hi Sam, one other thing with Accurascale if you buy two or more of a particular product you get a 10% discount when buy direct for Accurascale and they also offer free postage on any of their items even if it just a pack of buffers
Regards
Andy
Brilliant stuff Sam - many thanks. It's time someone bit the bullet regarding prices and started to ask questions. One reason may be (and this is a guess on my part) that manufacturers regard their core market as the old retired person with money in the bank who has cash spare for pricey models. However, that's storing up certain disaster for the future as those of us who are older die off and there's no equivalent next generation to pass the torch on to. Notice the sea of grey and white heads that you see at model railway exhibitions (and I'm one of them at 72). Who will continue the hobby after we're all gone?
This is a truly fantastic video, and there is no way anyone who has watched this can defend the high prices (Hornby!) Now! Re buying from Manufacturers, I have bought my Accura stuff direct - for the points, admittedly, and the fact my order will definitely be honoured. That said, for other manufacturer's bits I always buy from a shop, as lower prices and great to show them some support!
Thank you so much! Yeah don't think there's anything wrong with that - and that's true, when you buy direct your order can feel more secure!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
They don't have to defend their high prices. They can set what ever price they want and if it sells, they've done well. They are not a charity.
Of course they have to defend them - if you want people to part with vast sums of money, the product needs to reflect that. Production quantities are getting smaller as time goes on... so much so that it's quite tricky to get hold of some models, and some retailers only receive a handful of each. This wouldn't be the case if they were selling well! Look at the expensive exclusives by Rails... many of them now with their prices slashed!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
High prices of staples like food, is making model trains rather secondary. Everything points to WWIII.
Very good video Sam, one of your best ones and most important. Firstly we need to support the retailers for reasons mentioned. Regarding the hobby my fear is that with technological advances it has shifted from 'toys to moddeling', great for 50 yr old like me with tad of disposable income but it leaves a gap for younger generation. There has to be a cheaper (but good value) range for children. Hornby use to be good at this but now trying to compete on high end with little distinction what is a 'toy' and 'serious' model.
I work in the Port wine business and occasioanly we have to work together with fellow producers to promote our drink, the railway model industry has to do the same (to promote the hobby), it is for everyone's benefit. Here, more than ever the retailers need our support.
You're on the money there Sam! Completely agree. I personally like to spread the love. I've bought a fair few locos track, cork bedding etc from my local Casula Hobbies in south Sydney. I have bought many locos etc from 3 of the other big model retailers in Sydney too and 1 further south. I've supported Hatton's, Kernow, TMC, Rails and AMJ in the UK as well.
Only once have I purchased from the manufacturer (Hornby) and omg was it just painful!
Just support the little guys. As you said, your supporting jobs, a business you can trust for advice, quite often get a discount and multi brand selections!
No brainer really.
Great video and well resourced and presented.
This is a very in topic Sam, let's just hope that nothing will bad happen to this hobby in the future.
Cheers Jasper & Willow
An interesting video here Sam, Im lucky to be able to buy some of the models but that is because I have a good well paid job and I choose what I really want to have in my collection.
same
Seems a miss match here between Railway Modellers and Model Railway Collector's. If your a Collector, then maybe it's impossible to to have too many loco's.
On the other hand a Modeller might say that you only need enough stock to run the layout with only a token stock surplus.
There are a few Model Railway empires out there but overwhelmingly the average layout only needs a few shunters/light duty types, some medium power types for freight & passenger & couple of main line types. In my own experience having too many loco's can be a disadvantage. There is a tendency to sideline faulty loco's and replace them with another from stock. Eventually a large collection mounts up of loco's that need some attention and because there is such a surplus you never get round to repairing anything. If a more moderate collection is maintained its more likely stock gets maintained properly because its actually needed to run the layout, and ultimately greater satisfaction is achieved from the hobby.
The reality is that Hatton’s were not really a retailer in the “local high street shop” sense. Yes you could go to their display room, but there were not shelves full of boxes to browse through and pickup. Their business model was no longer working due to the manufacturers not doing massive product runs and relying on the likes of Hatton’s to pick up the slack and take the risk. The flip side is there are some some local retailers who try to sell at full “rrp” and complain bitterly that no one buys the product. I went into a small shop in the south and got very dirty looks from the shop keeper when I told my son that I was not paying full retail for anything! But then there was no interaction with the shop keeper to convince me to buy anything either. It’s swings and roundabouts.
Good video mate. I've only bought 1 loco in the last 12 months, compared to the many I used to previously buy, and that one loco I bought was 2nd hand.
My purchasing habits have changed to exclusively buying from my local 2nd hand model train shop as a result of the prices.
I was actually wondering how much more expensive model railways has become relative to inflation. In the early 90s I remember an oo gauge steam loco in model shops being £70-£80 and a diesel & electric being £30-40. On the Bank of England website is an inflation calculator and £75 in 1992 equates to £158 nowadays. But these models were inferior to even railroad locos of today. In relative terms the hobby has not got that more expensive and I certainly wouldn't want to go back the standard of models of the 80s and 90s, but I still got shocked by the prices. Incidentally £200 in 2021 is equivalent to £237 now with average inflation of 8.9% in the UK. 😬 The trouble is average wages has not kept up. I fear prices will go up even more as the demographic of the hobby ages, and fewer younger people take up the hobby from those dying.
Manufacturing techniques and materials have improved considerably since the early 90's and I would argue that today's high detail models actually cost less to manufacture in real terms. When DCC controllers that cost less than £3 to manufacture are being sold for £30 something is badly wrong and there is no way a model is costing more than £50 to manufacture in China and ship to the UK.
@@schrodingerscat1863 And yet some companies like Hornby really struggle to make a profit. We live in a world with a weaker pound and manufacturing in India and China does not save the money it used to. Then again other smaller companies like Accurascale make superior models and sell them at a reasonable price so it can be done.
@@Degsie1975 China may be more expensive than it was but it is still vastly less costly than prices suggest. It also doesn't follow that development costs are higher as new technologies should have vastly reduced the cost and turn around time to generate new tooling. Speaking as an engineer, none of these price rises make sense and it all points to price gouging and bad management. If Accurascale can do it they all can. My feeling is that £150 for a high end model would be acceptable to the market and should also provide sufficient profit to make it worthwhile. If manufactures embrace new technologies and get the manufacturing and development processes sorted out it should be possible to get even cheaper than that.
You only need a few locos to operate a model railway. Fifty years ago, models were much simpler, with just four power pick-ups and no separate handrails, no digital sound, etc etc. The current situation means that the future of the manufacturers isn't looking great, but the hobby itself will be fine. There's enough second-hand stuff to last for decades.
Hornby , Bachman etc. are NOT manufacturers . they wholesale products made by CHINESE labor
Great summary Sam and I like the Accurascale direct for exclusives and retail option for the others. Cavalex are good to in that they support the retailers and are not selling direct at the moment.
What we want is healthy competition with new thinking that challenges price, quality and service
Excellent video!
It's even worse in the US, a decent steam loco will cost $500-800 new, and the going rate for new freight cars with acceptable detail is $55. Although, the hobby started with people who built the models they wanted, and if it has to return to that, then it will.
Especially with 3D printing.
@@OlivierGabin well, yes, but it's always gonna be more rewarding to build than it is to print
@@jamesm6638 Not everybody can master the assembly of brass models from scratch... And the engine I imagine to 3D print by myself are always in several parts that had to be joined together to form an engine.
3D printing is more beginner-friendly than ordinary methods of modelling except, in my opinion, cardboard manufacturing buildings or rolling stock. and can lead to people doing more complicated modelling (brass models from scratch as an example).
What about the other option, get more customers?
I've always found it strange that you can't find at least train sets in the big retail stores where everyone gets their normal shopping from (ASDA, Tescos etc), these stores get thousands of customers per week, far more than the throughput of model stores, true they'd not have the in-depth knowledge of such and such loco, but for the general public, they don't need that level of knowledge to get into the hobby.
With the larger potential customer base the prices could (depending on manufacturer preference) start to decrease as instead of producing 500 of X model which is likely to sell out, you could make 1000 or more.
Use these types of stores to draw in new customers while the model shops can provide for them once they get hooked.
Quite sure they did use to sell train sets in the normal bug retail stores years ago, but it's just the thoughts of "If you want more fish, cast a bigger net"... or something like that anyway!
Yeah true - though some supermarkets have stocked Hornby sets in the past - pretty sure I bought a set from Asda once!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I don't think this is going to change much, live has become very expensive to start with, a lot of people are happy now if they can afford their daily shopping.
And youngster is what you need, but ask the average youngster, the xbox or a game for it , or a model train set, and I think we all know what they choose.
And if you have several children, I think the Xbox is the cheapest choice, unfortunately.
Yes sir... I'm quite happy picking up older models second-hand or in sales as by then the reviews are in and you know what you're getting. Can't see myself ever paying over 200 quid for a model.
Nice one Sam.
You’ve hit the nail preciously on the head. The internet!
It’s your access to hundreds of retailers to find what you’re looking for at the most competitive price. And who wouldn’t want to get a “bargain”?
Yes, I am of an age demographic that blends in at any model railway exhibition.
Growing up in the pre internet era, if you wanted to buy model trains, you went to your local model shop. Nine times out of ten the price you paid was the same as in the manufacturers catalogue. Being a retailer especially the local small model shop is not for the feint hearted. Business rates, property rental, and all the other overheads come at a cost which has to come from the profit on each model. Just ask yourself how many items you’d have to sell each and every day to cover expenses, let alone receive an income?
Now, to give the game away, at the age of eight, I saved for over a year to purchase a Triang Fowler 4F 0-6-0 tender locomotive. Not a patch on the detail found on todays models but par for the course at the time. In 1964 this locomotive cost 29/6. For the uninitiated that’s £1:47 1/2p. Peanuts by today’s standard but in 1964 that was pretty close to a days wage for most. Now lets take a look at a model produced today. You only have to look in the paperwork of some models to find the “spares” components list. This often runs into a hundred plus parts. All of which have to be made, painted / printed and assembled. For those who have ever built a plastic kit of any size, they know how much of a challenge it can be. With the amount of detail built into today’s models (which we are all coming to expect), it’s hardly surprising the “RRP” can be £150 plus for the DCC ready version.
True, there are more manufacturers today and you may ask, do we need them? Well, yes, to be honest. It provides more competition within the market place and scope for other avenues and innovation yet to be explored. Lets not forget, if they didn’t think there was a market for their products they would not go into business in the first place. So, is the hobby alive and kicking? Pretty much so. It’s never really been cheap and the latest rise in the cost of living is bound to have some effect. It survived in the past when mortgage rates hit 15.4 percent and will this time. Maybe not in the form we’ve come to expect but our lifestyles are not the same as they used to be either. Time will tell!
I will miss Hattons. I hope this hobby doesn’t go down. I still wanna model Sodor and many preserved places.
Got into the hobby in Summer 2021. As a Texan who decided to collect OO, this hobby was always gonna be brutally expensive on shipping costs alone.
But now that new models cost as much as a car payment here in the States, Hattons' Trunk Service is gone w/ no successor in sight, and the pre-owned market isn't doing much better than the brand new stuff, I've been absolutely priced out.
(Here's the part where the Texan brings up firearms)
It's literally cheaper for me to buy 800 rounds of 9mm than it is to buy a new Hornby 2MT (Shipping & Taxes (theft) aside).
Please don't walk into a train hobby store and go Hatton trunk "postal" 😂
@@vincebagusauskas278 I'm a Texan, not a psychopath xD
Even collecting firearms is being squeezed. It’s always been an expensive hobby, but several pieces I acquired close to ten years ago are things now I would have to spend at least double today to purchase one in vaguely similar condition (1890s to pre-First World War Imperial German equipment has skyrocketed in cost).
@@oriontaylor That might be fair as rarity has to be increasing and nobody is making new 1890s firearms. Or shouldn't be. That doesn't apply to models as they are new items.
Loved your presentation. I gleaned from two retailers they are required to stick to a six month no competitive price structure, otherwise they will lose their supply of product. I obtained this information when I asked for some discount due to my level of purchases. Both provided a good level of discount, but I must not pass on their names to anyone. My silence has been rewarded. Only last year a trader and a railway preservation line were offering amazing prices and asked how they could do it. They six months price control was well past and they could charge whatever price they wanted. To give an example on the trader, I obtained a Bachmann Class 47 with sound, sixty pounds, yes sixty pounds below other traders. It was less than £200. The preservation line regularly has great sales and I like to help them out.
Sam, I live in the US and we have a similar problem here with local hobby shops going out of business for one reason or another. I believe the local hobby shop is good for the hobby long term because it helps mentor newcomers and experienced hobbyists alike, not just on which model to buy, but also other subjects like scenery or layout building. There is usually someone behind the counter that is an experienced hobbyist and can offer this kind of advice. In my own pursuit, some of my best friends have been hobby shop owners. The intangible rewards, while they don't pay the bills, are still valuable.
The British market could really do with a new tooled entry range like Walthers Mainline.
As ideal as that would be, it makes no financial sense to sink huge amounts of money to a completely newly tooled range if youre already struggling to make the ends meet as a company. I'm honestly surprised that Hornby took on the challenge to relaunch TT:120 and wonder if that has only made their pricing even worse due to having to make up the tooling costs.
Also people need to get more confortable with doing shunting/shelf layouts rather than big runaround loops, young people joining the hobby lack the space needed to build these mammoth loops and you also dont need as many expensive locos or rolling stock to run a shunting/shelf layout.
One last thing I want to add is that the continental (German, Swiss, even American) modeling scene is doing just fine despite having locomotives that can easily cost from 300 to 500 EUR or even more. The only difference I can see is that the German manufacturers actually make working and highly detailed models for that price unlike many British manufacturers (*cough cough* Hornby, Bachmann).
Or Hornby could just price their Railroad range at sensible prices. Like they used to.
@@harrytodhunter5078 Completely misses the point of them clearly not being able to make the ends meet. As Sam said, this seems more like a last chance struggle to turn a profit more than anything .
@@kettusnuhveli341 Agreed. When you pay a Piko/Roco/Trix engine at those levels, you can see where your money is going. I am buying both, I can directly make the comparison and, honestly, hem... Cannot prove you wrong on this topic.
If I had not started 15 years ago with UK models, honestly, I would certainly discard the idea of doing this today if I had to start from scratch.
I think so! Not necessarily in the form of a new range, but just in making slight cutbacks in model complexity to pull the prices down a touch - it's not really been tried properly! The Railroad range is too basic, and their "design-clever" models still seemed way too expensive!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam I'm a big fan of yours, but I do think you might be part of the problem?
In your excellent reviews you often downgrade models for not having ultra high quality features, which is fine if you are willing to pay for those features. I would much rather spend less than £100 for an old fashioned model with no bells and whistles (or sprung buffers) because I just like watching them go round the track. Whenever you turn a wagon over to marvel at the brake rigging I chuckle a little.
I know which side of the argument I'm on. My most expensive loco purchase ever was a second hand ViTrains Class 37 which I spent £80 on about 8 years ago. My most recent full price purchase was a Hornby Railroad Class 31 which was £60. All my locos I always buy from Great Eastern in Norwich, but I do get scenic supplies from online shops.
The answer for me is much less investment to keep rivet counters happy, and more focus on massively more affordable, durable and reliable locos, so kids can be more involved.
Yeah, I agree with this. Sam does seem to increasingly criticise models, some of which that he's reviewed I own personally and love dearly, I never check reviews to see if a model is good, I go to the actual model shop and usually judge that for myself, or Google if there's any common issues with a product, like the Bachmann LMS Ivatt Class 2
I believe the future of this hobby is with younger generations, those who will grow into it over many years. Yet all I can observe it a clear exclusion.
It doesn't need new models, super digital features like DCC flashing lights and 5.1 surround sound built in speakers in every model. It requires a framework to sustain the hobbyist demand and enthusiasm for model trains, not just railway modelling (since some people may not be interested in modelling and will be happy to running models)
+ Local 'Second hand' model shops (that stop selling new releases)
+ Manufacturers sell new models direct to customers
+ Local modelling clubs (more of, better supported financially / ethically for the social benefits they provide)
+ Local modelling clubs specifically setup sub-clubs for children
+ Local modelling events supported by regional clubs and shops as well as national manufacturers (through participation and grant funding)
+ People who inherit or no longer want model railway items to consider donating some of it/all of it to local second hand shops and modelling clubs who have a children's club provision (where items could be given to children to take home and start their own collection).
I know this is generally bonkers ideas. But I feel the industry needs to create a sustainable flow of new modellers or you may as well keep all your model railway until your family inherit it and take it to a recycling centre, because there won't be anyone wanting to buy it if the younger generation are not captivated.
Anyway, all IMO. Thanks Sam for the enticing video
I agree. I just ordered the Western Rambler as a start to getting back in the hobby after getting rid of my OO layout a few years ago. I ordered it from Model Railways Direct which seem slightly cheaper than other sites.
Awesome video Sam's trains
As far as increasing manufacturing costs, which affects more than just our model train hobby, it will be interesting to see in the coming years whether there is an exodus of Western companies departing China for either elsewhere in the Orient or somewhere new entirely. Red China is not the cheap place to build and operate a factory that it was 25 years ago.
Hi Sam. Another great informative video. The High Street needs all the retail outlets it can get. Really sad to hear about Hattons. A really great place to shop. I’m hopeful that in the future, they may reopen under a new name.
The hobby is incredibly expensive and there’s a lot to be said for a second hand purchase.
Let’s hope the manufacturers get their acts together (for a change), support the retailer and appreciate them if you still have one in your local town.
Very good video and a useful presentation of the real issue too, obviously with many item. Well I have recently started the hobby in my retirement but now finding it very difficult to buy newer model so don't tend to buy many new model so I just check out used models first if I can find any that I like. Don't won't to give up before I have even started but want to enjoy the hobby so I can pass it ON to my grand kids, I hope.
There is a few elements to Hattons closure which are unique to Hattons. You mention one of the advantages of a retailer is all brands under one roof, and for me it was when Hatton's were no longer able to offer that things started to go wrong. Bachmann publicly pulled the plug on them, and then Hornby started restricting stock to them through the tier system. In a competitive environment as you mention this was enough to see many (including me if I'm honest) turning their back on Hattons and looking elsewhere. In truth the big two didn't like what Hattons were doing and ultimately that killed them IMHO. Hattons were also a pioneer which can often lead to problems down the line - for many years they offered a simply unbeatable online mail order service - but now many others offer just as good a service and people naturally shop around.
It's true as well that the market is slightly flooded these days. The sad reality is some manufacturers won't last the course, and even though the smaller manufacturers are in many cases challenging the status quo and producing better products, they are the most at risk.
Yeah true - no doubt they took a hit for that - and it sure does make you wonder whether that was the intention! Yep - there's definitely a huge amount of product available at the moment... many of them in small quantities too!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I think it comes down to pure greed at the end of the day, hornby could discount their products heavily, take a small hit on profit, bring in new people and profit will start showing again with sales, but when smokey joe a 40 year old locomotive thats supposed to be "budget" is 49.49 on hornbys website, they really show that they arent thinking long term
How much profit are they actually making? What is their margin per item please? Some facts required.
@@vizmortlock£5.2 million loss last year
@@vizmortlock I haven't got exact figures but when they put their prices up but are still losing customers, it doesn't take a genius to work out why
And again, what percentage of customers are they 'losing' , facts better than speculation. I agree that prices from all manufacturers are high but not necessarily too high or too low for that matter. Without facts it's speculation and bandwagon gossip.
@@vizmortlock the ones that obviously unlike you don't have the money to spend on models and have spend it on other more important things like eating
A great video explaining the problems within the hobby. I don't have any model shops near me, so I have to get everything online or wait until I go to exhibitions. Even then you still have to watch the prices. I can afford these expensive models, but they are getting silly prices, so will be cutting back. Keep up the videos please.
Really thought provoking video Sam, great stuff. There is one major thing regarding high prices that you failed to mention and that is a certain percentage of modellers who have retired from their jobs making idiotic demands for detail that doesn't even matter especially when all it brings about is extortionate prices. Best regards Gary.
A giant like Hattons must have squeezed out a lot of the local retailers.
Maybe they did - I guess that's what happens when you innovate and do well - they started out small just like the rest!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Widnes model center is still there and doing great only a few miles away. Also a shop doing fine in warrington not far away.
I couldn’t agree more. We the public are falling behind thanks to mandated high prices for not just model trains. Wages aren’t keeping up with the pace of inflation. Supply issues create more demand with less supply. Thus, well you guessed what happens.
Good summary Sam. Thank you.
There is probably one way to both cut out the middleman and have everything in one place. A marketplace website. Not a retailer/middleman, just all of the manufacturers in one place.
Maybe a consolidation will happen and some manufacturers will join together. This can cut down some of the costs like accounting or marketing.