This StarCraft Reddit situation is CRAZY
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
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Props to the guy for taking up Harstem on the challenge instead of just being all talk.
Not only that, he proved his point. He was able to win a map.
Thanks! It indeed felt great!
@@davidm2031 and the second game was really really close too! I started rooting for the guy haha
I think he already had the strat ready when he posted, but yeah, homie got balls.
@@darealrulezbreaker9493 I tried hard and lost due to my 3K scouting and multitasking. What if I had 3.3K scouting and mutlitasking T_T.
The look on your face when those first voids came in cracked me up, haha.
Makes sense, their main downside these days is that they are really expensive. Remove that, and you get yourself some tough units.
Pure gold
You could tell he was not prepared to actually face a challenge, but enjoyed it immensely.
He was so honest in his response and had no qualms with sending kudos to them, love it.
Went back to watch that part. Totally worth it! Haha
"this guy doesn't know how to macro" - proceeds to get supply blocked for eternity.
Dude, the pure fear in your voice when you saw those three void rays in the first match is absolutely priceless.
Bruh spoilers
@@redcollard3586 why do you read the comments before watching the video thou? xD
"fear"
Every assimilator is also 3 probes. So for every assimilator that you would normally take, you need to build 3 less probes. I suspect that's a large part of it, because that's a significant part of expanding that you don't need to do anymore.
He saves himself 450 minerals off the bat by not needing assimilators, which saves time and equals 3 easy Stargates and 3 voidrays really fast.
450 minerals saved per expansion!
@@52flyingbicycles I think the time it takes to build those workers is a much larger impact. If he wants to expand, it doesn't take as long to saturate the minerals. If he doesn't, he can stop building workers way faster. But the mineral savings are big, too.
@nibs1989 Yeah, the *immediate* boost of the savings turns into maxing out on mineral workers faster, which translates into making those Stargates faster. Streamrolling speed bonuses left and right.
I don't understand this conversation. That's not a large part of it, that's ALL of it. You can't buy anything with gas only. So.... the advantage is you have more probes mining minerals.
"Also?" No. Only.
I find it funny that Harstem is surprised at the early scouting when his opponent knows that he's facing the cheesiest man alive
Unlike what many people are saying, I did not gamble, tried to scout to the best of my ability, and had a response plan for most scenarios I can think of.
Because it really doesn't make any sense to scout at that timing.
When you play against a proxy 3 or 4 gate the gas doesn't matter as much as micro does. So making sure you aren't rushed and can actually use your gas advantage is important. The timing is slightly off because they aren't a pro player.
Mass sentries sounds like a legit strat with this challenge. They cost 50 minerals, and they do quite well against gateway units and can probably drag the game out long enough until you get enough gateways and templar archive for mass 100 mineral archons.
Was my plan for G4. But Harstem's first Stalkers were faster than in my practice games so I was forced to build more Stalkers than Sentries which delayed everything.
Yea, these voidrays scared the hell out of me
I’m watching the second game and thinking: “reapers for 50 minerals - TAKE MY MONEY”
You need micro for Reapers to pay for themselves. In my hand, Reapers are worse than unstimmed Marines...
i was thinking mass raven and auto turret spam
@@gagaronpew4382 I could have try next time!
@@shen_zhuoran they have better stats still, so how are they worse even if you a move them
@@Leo.23232 They have lower DPS against units with base armor, which is basically anything Protoss, except Probes.
Super fast scout makes sense: gotta make sure the pro doesn't try to just win with cheese before the gas ever comes into play. Don't know if it's optimal but it's what I'd be paranoid about in his shoes.
I was specifically checking for proxy gates or cannon rush. Anything from his base would not hit earlier than my Voids.
@@shen_zhuoran You don't need to scout this early for proxygates and a cannonrush only blindcounters himself. Because no matter what you do, a tech rush, either robo or stargate is a win.
I love that harstem completely misjudged how disgusting this is
For instance, on 1 base, 16 workers mining aka 16minerals per second, warp gate warping in high templars have 32s cooldown, at 50 minerals each, we have
16/(50/32) =10.24 warp gates on cooldown permanents.
You can support 10 gateways on 1 base, making 5 archons on 1 base every 30 seconds.
This is unbelievably broken
In fairness, pro players have done some pretty ridiculous challenges - uThermal has won a 6v1 before for instance (granted, that was against bronze/silver players and he didn't do it on the first attempt.. but still, winning a 6v1 at all is a way bigger handicap than winning a 1v1 against an opponent with infinite gas). If it reaches the lategame, a pro player will still destroy a lower ranked player even with infinite gas - but there might be some cheeses that hit way earlier than they normally would that a low ranked player could execute that could beat a pro player.
@@asdfqwerty14587 uThermal would have never won that game against coordinated bronze players where 1-2 people just worker rush him. Doing that would ofc be boring, so it wasn't done.
And here it is similar in that the pro has the best chance winning by just rushing before gas can make a difference.
You can build t2 & t3 units way earlier with unlimited gas. And so pros won't really hit lategame ever. You just need to pick gas heavy units, not units like stalkers or vikings.
Well pro's will just rush you early game, before any gas can make a difference
I would just spam spine crawlers and queens while rushing mutalisk, don't do 1 base all in, but open up with a second base right away, not even a pro will be able to stop two base zerg with lots of early spines and queens against early harass then two base minerals only muta rush, unstoppable
oh hey its the legend himself, Flash
Instant chills!
This isn't the SC2 name tier list I was promised my man
Preach!
Right? We're waiting, Captain!
the voidray jumpscare
WAS THAT THE VOID OF 87?!?
Haters gonna say: "this wasn't the real Flash"
Flash only plays remastered
If it's real Flash then even Serral/Clem/herO would have died 100% of the times.
Shocked there's no infinity-baneling strat so far 😂😂
Infinity baneling means infinity zergling which means infinity larvae.......
Mutas would be better, spam a couple spines and queens and not even pro micro will do any early dmg, then good luck stopping muta spam on two base zerg with infinite gas
@@mcmarkmarkson7115 I thought that's what I did in G3...
@@shen_zhuoran you had no static defenses
Corrupters were a mistake as well, should have spammed only mutas, they are the price of zealots! + don't cheap out on upgrades, they are a huge advantage and cost you only minerals
And third base was a mistake, slowing your muta rush down
And worst mistake, don't trade units against his economy, trade units for units when you already have such a giant economy advantage
@@shen_zhuoran think G3 felt more like a corruptor denying nexus strat though. Probably an adjustment I can see is, walling off the natural, building spores in mineral line, and macro hatches in main instead of expanding. I do think the mass mutas would lose against phoenixes though.
We all know the answer to starting with infinite minerals: 12 proxy rax marine all in
That's less fun. I'd build a full wall of cannons fully surrounding their main.
@@berndarndt9924 reapers can beat 12 barracks production worth of marines? You don’t even need your home base especially because you pulled the boys to build all the proxy barracks! Worst case scenario it’s a base trade, can you kill the main, a bunch of barracks, and their nearby supply depots before 12 barracks worth of constant marine production overwhelm you? Not with a couple reapers you can’t
The second game he literally had you on the ropes if he checked the bases naxt to your main - you couldnt fight the army on the ground, if he didnt retreat, he could trade half of the army for the win - that is with him losing viking war and everything, all he needed was the courage to check the bases next to your main with one of them already being destroyed and know that it is not it. He wouldnt kill you outright of course since you had air supremacy and your buildings could fly but then you would definitely be on a timer which I think even gold league player should be able to exploit.
For the fourth game I thought he will rush high templars into archons which would cost basically nothing with the gas cost being 0 but stalkers? Madman.
I mean, do warpgate and sentries. At 50 minerals and 2x damage on shields sentries are badass units.
Contain with sentries, tech to archons.
@@adamnevraumont4027 You literally saw how containing with sentries plays out.
He'd be able to just float his OCs, he had plenty of SCVs left still and with MULEs he'd have a higher mineral economy.
He couldn't really do much once he lost air superiority and Libs came out.
Going all-in and trying to kill all the production and main was the best bet. He just needed 1 Viking at home to defend the Lib harass so he could continue production and reclaim air superiority. Or honestly cut 1 Viking and get an armory so he can mix in thors so he doesn't even need air superiority vs Libs.
surprised he didn't went mass DT, since with infinite gas, DT is like the cost of a zealot each.
I’m unironically so shocked that he won game 1 lol
tbh the triple void ray at 3:30 is something else
There's a reason he does this with Protoss and not Terran or Zerg
@@quineloe wait till u see game 2 lol
It's definitely more a surprise factor than anything. If Harstem had actually scouted it, he'd probably be able to mount a defense, or make a call to abandon the main sooner, and yes, Harstem was also thinking too little about the infinite gas and playing as if it were a normal game. That said, good on him for exploiting the map. I'm surprised he didn't bring out his infamous '8 archons and 5 sentries' build that he kept bragging about on reddit; probably because when he actually played he realised that buildings actually take a whole lot of time to make.
@@hetaresgaming7771 But really, rushing voidrays and then going archon/carrier after it is probably going to kill everyone. Because you get 50 mineral archons, cheaper carriers and cheaper buildings to get to carriers, meaning you can speed it all up. You need minerals for all of that, but the cheap archons will get you safety enough, I think.
So, as long as you can survive any early cheeses or attacks while you are doing the voids, even if someone does defend the voids, the follow up is just too good.
As for the second game, I dont think infinity reapers are beatable. Reapers cannot be masses in a regular game because they cost gas that you need for tanks instead. Now, you dont need to care about that, you can use reapers instead of marines. That is just insane, especially if the enemy does not reaper wall like Harstem did not.
@@CZProtton But that's the point; as long as you can survive, which a plat player definitely would not. Not against a 'top class pro player like Maru or Serral', as claimed by OP in his original reddit post, and as we all know Harstem isn't even near their level, and once he what his opponent was going for, he handled it relatively well even with big mistakes like forgetting to wall, gettign supply blocked. or not paying attention to the ramp during a contain.
personally lightmode is even crazier
What's lightmode?
@@shen_zhuoran opposite of dark mode where instead of having your web browser being dark its flashbang white like what harstem has currently
@@shen_zhuoran white background with dark text (in this case on reddit in the browser, nothing to do with starcraft itself). A lot of apps and websites have an option for dark mode where you have dark background and white text instead. A lot of people find it easier on the eyes. There's also a browser extension Dark Reader to force dark mode on sites that don't provide the option.
Damn, my country Bulgaria is really quite active in the SC2 tournaments. Uthermal mentioned it at least twice and now Harstem
They have the distinction of being the only major tournament played after the WTL. After this we're all sort of walking into the unknown: no one has announced that they're picking up SC2 for major/premier tournaments next year, and, rather than saving Starcraft, Microsoft seems to have cut Blizzard's staff even further, so we don't know if anyone there is even courting the esports world to pick up SC2 for another year (although you can damn well bet that they're keeping the licensing fees in place!), or if anyone is even taking the Balance Council's calls anymore.
Why is Bulgaria breaking into SC2 space?
zero gas banelings sounds really hard to beat
Templar archive. 100 minerals for every archon
@raymondsjursen4470 takes to long to get online
@@raymondsjursen4470 It would probably be too slow. You can only really win with fast all-ins because, as soon as you give time for a pro to build up and get more tools, he will out micro you.
^
@@Ghi102 I think BCs would work despite being slow, since they fly and have enough effective hp. Also Yamato on shots pretty much everything the pro can build.
This is the Starcraft II equivalent of giving your opponent a Queen head start in chess.
I laughed out loud for a minute straight when the void rays came in, hahahaha great video
I bet a player who's moderately skilled that goes for some kind of reaper cheese could beat a top pro player - there must be some kind of reaper cheese that's just impossible to defend against when the reapers cost no gas, though I don't really know what the best way to do it would be.
I dont think it matters, proxy 2 rax reaper I think will not be stoppable just because of a sheer number of reapers you can send. Reapers are buildable with a reactor too, its just too many reapers that kill buildings way too fast, you would do the adept glaive rush but with reapers, jumping between nat and main and just rallying more and more into the oponents base.
Yeah, if only I had any micro...
just keep adding barracks supply depots and mules while spam flooding reapers lol. no refinery, no tech lab, just spam barracks reapers depots and mules
I wouldn't count on it. Reapers look good when good players use them - they die incredibly inefficiently when they get outplayed, and, like harstem demonstrated twice, the pro player can defend while killing your economy.
@@Tmoy1124 You should add reactors since they build faster than barracks and cost less minerals.
Could you bounce a viking down into those clustered tanks to get the friendly fire to do the damage for you? Could you get the viking out unscathed?
Infinite vespene from the start of the game is HUGE. That's hundreds of minerals of advantage in the early game and hundreds more as time goes on. Banelings in particular become super scary as they are now only 50 minerals each, and then mutalisks would also be crazy since they could be spammed en-mass even off of one-base. But then again Void Rays have an even higher gas ratio than banelings, and also require gas for their production facilities, so they are also seemingly super scary. And if the void rays somehow doesn't kill them, mass archon spam will, with each archon only costing the price of a zealot.
Against terran this sounds maybe the most possible to beat, but still super scary.
This was one of your most fun content lately, this was a blast to watch!
I think the key insight is that having free gas isn't just about how quickly you tech up or whatever, it also, or even primarily, functionally halves the cost of units, *while* doubling how many workers are active early.
It's twofold actually. First you save the minerals on the assimilator but then you have a bigger boost. Every probe is going into mining minerals right then. That's going to add up too.
"I've checked pretty much everything on my side of the map", nope.
I was expecting archons. Free gas means they're basically fancy zealots.
They just take too long to tech into.
Harstem not stealing gas is a missed opportunity
What a coincidental topic, Day9 also posted a video the other day about "what if one player started with 100 more minerals" and talked about compounding advantages. Meanwhile here it's cranked up to 11 with infinite gas.
For ZvP, banelings were the obvious play, you can pump out so many lings and the only limiting factor on banelings is gas.
Banelings cost 50/25, that is the easiest freewin for Harstem.
Yeah, basically this guy was way overestimating himself. Like I posted, I'm pretty sure bonaan or printf would beat him with a cannon rush before his cyber core finishes making, so his infinite gas would be useless. He also keeps saying 'I can hold off anything with 8 archons and a few sentries' without figuring build time of both buildings and units into his calculations, nor a contain situation.
Yea, against printf this would probably be over before gas ever becomes relevant.
I'm actually curious to try. Is it theoretically possible to cannon rush up a ramp against an earlier Forge?
@@shen_zhuoran A counter forge is one of the counters to the cannon rush. However, lower level players (even grandmasters) would not be able to successfully hold off bonaan or printf, as they only-cannon rush users; they do not play the game properly. They do not learn to make armies, they aim to kill you with the cannon rush there and then, or by a follow up.
I would reccomend you looking at Harstem's practice with both printf and bonaan on his channel in regards to both holding a cannon rush and executing a cannon rush. It can be incredible knowing how crazy and specific their cannon rush is.
@@hetaresgaming7771 I watched quite some printf games. When his opponent blind counters him, he does not try to kill with cannon rush. Instead he makes a cannon containment and then attacks with a follow-up. With infinite gas, the cannon containment would not work in his favor, as basic units and cannons cannot break the main ramp and his tech would be massively behind.
Yea the guy didn't really think this through. He could have played very defensive and spammed spine crawler or cannons in his base, then micro would play no role as even a pro couldn't break early turtling with any kind of cheese
I'm sitting here waiting for 5 minute Archons and battlecruisers
As another streamer said this week "Harstem is a very, very, very high-level content creator" 🤣
To this guys credit, playing a 1v1 against a pro player is kinda like a jam session with a pro musician, and he made it happen.
i was expecting mass archon/high templar as they are essentially free
Didn't work in practice games due to the late timing, clunky units, and poor micro.
Bro how much time do you need to rush a templar archives with 2 bases? you need to learn to create more workers and just use static defenses to prevent harass
@@KradDrows Templar Archive could be quick, but 4-gate Archon is not strong. Building 8 Gates on 1 base or 16 Gates on 2 would take a long time.
@@KradDrows At a certain point, if your answer is "play better", I feel like you're kinda missing the point of the challenge?
I think you severely underestimated the economic impact. 6 probes less for full saturation, 3 probes per gas collecting minerals every second they would have been mining gas, as well as +150 minerals saved off assimilator costs.
What fascinates me is that in this entire video, upgrade expenses were not mentioned once.
Haha great stuff! Would watch another one!
I can beat harstem with infinite minerals, as protoss, probably.
Infinite minerals is no contest, you just walk into the enemy base with your 12 probes, build a bunch of pylons, and then 30 cannons
500 zealots
@@quineloe LOL some Reddit trolls said a 3K player can't beat a pro even with infinite minerals.
100 sentries. Hallucinate 100 sentries.
That would be an interesting strat, considering harstem didn't build splash
A Banshee in the second game would be so great for Harstem
I bet that guy was so happy after that first game
Yes I was.😆
@@shen_zhuoran Duuuuuude just imagine if you ended game 2, you would be playing up against Harstem's buddies next. You could of been going places with this man
Of course it is void ray .. void ray is the definition of 3K protoss
this is a great series to continue imo
+500 minerals per base and several minutes worth of gas mining worth of stuff is a crazy lead. Not to mention it simplifies macro and mental stack by a fair bit.
Honestly impressive showing by our fake Flash here. Would've loved to see a redo of that first game, though. Like, is there actually good counter to gasless proxy void rays? Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks for seeing this through!!!
I think you need to exploit the speed advantage in tech, like he did with voidray. Perhaps ravager for zerg, mass reaper or bc for terran? Id love to see a mass dt build, archons and dts would be very cheap.
A 4K Protoss could probably pull off a mass DT build. Not me due to micro issues.
At +4 gas for each harvester trip per gas, mathematically you'll never win no matter how good you are.
[1] When you counted the Vikings for the Viking wars, did you also consider it is not only numbers but also upgrades, since he can out-upgrade you very fast?
[2] Chasing drones and workers is in his advantage, not yours, given that you need your workers harder than he needs his. So a 1 to 1 worker trade benefits him.
[3] The opposite of a banger is a whimper.
He can absolutely not outupgrade with 1base mineral income. Making an armory at all would be a mistake. And losing workers clearly lost him the game lol.
LOL 3k player, his name is Flash. LOL
Harstem sees triple VR, PANIC TIME
I mean, you're basically removing one of the rarer resources in a game all about timings. You're essentially giving your workers and production a straight up buff. Same would be true for the inverse (minerals).
After 2 minutes I’m already two minutes in.
Crayzy
A canon rush would have been so freaking funny
Okay, now Grubby needs to do this challenge, where his opponent has infinite wood.
EDIT: Lumber, I mean lumber!
I guess it's Stronghold Crusader time.
Wood needed!
He has a defacto worker advantage on minerals too which is nice
Unlimited gas seems kinda broken with Protoss. Why not just make 100 archons?
As Zerg I could have two bases and maybe 30 banes by 3 mins so I think this would not be stoppable
He "had a plan" but didn't do it properly. Tank viking is fine, but you need a good micro. Zerg just go hydra roach. Toss anything but gateway units. Though air is preferable.
As someone who's probably about Gold, my choice of strategy per race would be:
Protoss: Dark Templar opening followed by High Templar spam for Archons
Terran: Reaper spam into Ghost spam
Zerg: No idea how to win as Zerg. Would be in a unrecoverable position by the time I'm really using the Vespene.
Reaper spam opener feels the most unbeatable, yet simple enough for even a noob like me to pull off.
Against a pro I would just spam cannons/spine crawlers, I would be too afraid to be outplayed at the start of the game before I get any tech online
Should be impossible even for a pro to beat early defense spam, you just need to survive till your tech opens up.
Ur T and P builds both don't work. I tried Archon spam, which is too late and too clunky, being kited out by long-range units like Stalkers, Collosi, or Disruptors. Reapers need 5 raxes + Reactors, which also means late timing.
How to become #1 at StarCraft: eat copious amounts of beans
Really working the algorithm with that video title
33:32 "I knew you were trouble when you *warped* in" Theres actually a version like that haha
I don't think I could win with infinite gas, minerals and and unlimited energy on all units lol
he definately should've made more ravens in that second game
This was stupid from the start but then you loaded up SC2 and I died laughing.
I wish the event was in Plovidv so I could have come, with work and other engagements I couldn't come to Stara Zagora to see you guys play. Hope you enjoyed your tiem in BG
what i learned, i dont suck playing Starcraft 2, i just need more gas XD
I wonder if the Zerg game would have worked on maybe 2 base and with a hidden spire with an overlord. maybe throw in a fake tech building. idk.
He should have built mass ravager vs Harstem. Build 20 roaches morf them into ravegers without speed and get free win. Easiest 60 supply army. Imagine how fast can you build roaches without gas! You need 3 gas to build toaches this is 12 workers lost for mining.
He should have done a mass sentry all in with unlimited gas.
Harstem forgot rule #1 of competition in game 1... Never underestimate your opponent hehe
In the last game, couldn't he go for sentries instead? They are quite strong and cost almost no minerals, so it should be possible to go even something crazy like 6-8 gate sentry rush...
Ok but between two equally skilled opponents, what is better infinite gas or double minerals?
I love how he said I need to win on macro cause opponent has no macro skills just before being supply blocked:)
i may be mistaken, but wouldnt zerg be the best in this scenario? the game is going to be decided by an early-midgame all-in because they have the knowledge of their opponent having infinite gas and the challenger knows that no resource advantage can compensate for the difference in micro. zerg has access to the ravager as a strong, low-tech unit that is capable of breaking walls and static defense. reapers for terran are too micro intensive and toss is limited by the time needed to build their tech
Watching this guy type gas10000000 into the wrong chat channel over and over instead of gas99999999 just hurts my soul to see. But he put up a good fight and a great show of it. Fun to watch.
Bump for when Harstem hummed T Swift LMAOOO
This guy feels like an aoe2 phosphoru type, if that reference rings any bells
Infinite gas? Proxy gate sentry rush.
Need to micro
@@raymondsjursen4470 not a ton though, even without using the barrier spell you can just mob up with illusions and cas shields. They hit ground and air and the illusions can give vision. Not bad for 50 minerals a pop. 1/2 the cost of a zealot.
@@bilabrin Sentries are too cheap, so you'll need to build 10 Gates per base to use your minerals, which is expensive on their own.
Would've been amazing if the challenge was infinite gas and he just cannon rushed.
I wanted to see a mass Templar/Archon build
I think just playing like printf would probably make this advantage pretty low, that said I think a diamond 1 or a masters 3 would win in a preparation match, it's very strong to not have to build gas and have additional workers mining it and being able to tech instantly, playing PvP with basically having an archon instead of a zealot would be insane
I would love to see Harstem go up against like Raynor, Clem, Serral or like some of the other really top players with infinite gas. I know it isn't as much of a skill gap, but I wanna see if like Serral can swat down a fellow pro with infinite gas.
17:00 It's like a boss fight. Endboss Harstem.
Any cheese builds has a small chance of beating a GM, I've seen it several times. Infinite gas only accelerated it.
Without any advantages cheese builds executed by a platinum, no absolutely not.
i think like maru would probably do ok since he could reaper harass him early.
I'm sorry. But a mass gate templar archive has to be unbeatable.
Great content - really enjoyable, immediately gets me thinking what I would do :) Thanks to you and Flash
Man that second game was INTENSE
TBH I think in Protoss vs Protoss the way is some sort of Archon rush. Archons is gas heavy units and archon deathball kinda nuts
Fusing Archons is micro intensive, which benefits experts the longer the game lasts.
That ‘I lost’ was so sad lol
There's nothing peaceful about Harstem on the toilet. 😂
I thought the crazy reddit situation would be the balance threads by people that obviously have zero understanding of how the game works.
i'm writing this before watching the game. i feel like the ability to make 50 archons on 1 base is too much to handle for any one so i'm betting on the infinite gas guy.
muta build could be 2x stronger if you mine minerals. double spire build is probably unbeatable if you saturate 2 bases