Smash Ultimate's Ex Top Tiers - Why They Fell Off
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Smash Ultimate's top tier lineup is greatly different than what it used to be back in 2019/2020. Today we'll be discussing their ex top tiers and what caused their fall from grace.
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#SSBU #Characters #SmashUltimate
It's interesting how the meta shifted so much even after the balance changes stopped. This game might be the second eternal-lasting game in the Smash series after all.
f
@@flyforce16 f
Congratulations, you're legitimately the first comment, and I have the screenshot to prove it.
Until the new smash drops
I think the longevity and the life span of ultimate sets it apart majorly from brawl and smash4
I feel like Protobanham's hiates and eventual retirement hurt the character far more than people realize.
Even with his Min Min, his Lucina was extremely strong with very little holes in his game plan, and edge guarding arguably better than someone like Sonix. Watching him against Light, Riddles's Terry, Tweek, and more made the character look an entire tier higher than she was.
It helps that since Min Min covered a lot, his Lucina was mainly used in situations where it was most beneficial to do so. This was more common than one would expect though, since Min Min is such a volatile character.
Even if we don't count his Min Min, no Lucina has come anywhere remotely close to Protobanham. Even the best Lucina we have in Mr. E pales in comparison.
Lucina was hurt by all the factors mentioned badly, but I feel like losing Protobanham and not having any equivalent rep for her hurt arguably more.
Proto also carried the Min Min meta until his hiatus, but at least that character had Doramigi emerge and pick up the slack afterwards. Lucina doesn't really have any equivalent and likely never will.
And even him knows Lucina reached what it could be done about her , now he uses Steve instead of Lucina
Leon in France, too
It amazes me that everybody had a pocket Wolf whenever the game first came out
Joker didn't really fall off. He just got naturally mellowed out/balanced as everybody else started figuring out what their characters can do punish wise.
Which was dramatically helped by the nerfs he got, which made holding on to Arsenne way harder against the onslaught of perfect punish games that'll either chew threw his meter or edgeguard Joker.
Joker went from Top 2 right behind Palutena to arguably a top 15 character. With the nerfs that he's gotten and when everyone started to figure the character out, he went from being one of the most feared characters in the entire game to a rather niche pick due to his high skill floor especially when other top tiers are much easier to play than Joker.
@@Gurkan790 He's actually one of the most well represented characters at top level. Not as "niché" as you think. He was the best pre-quarantine and he's probably t10-15 now.
The nerfs were a slap on the wrist at most (they were needed). It's mainly just meta shift. Still a superb character with all the tools needed to succeed.
@@Gurkan790nah he was better than palutena. He honestly didn’t have any losing matchups at release.
Nah the pandemic murdered him. He wasn’t that good online so leo basically dropped him for Byleth, and he’s never been able to return to his original peaks since then
Video Idea: Why Everyone/No One Plays: Captain Falcon
W video idea
I feel like this is too accurate lmao. Like everyone plays Captain Falcon casually but no one plays him competitively
- Cool and Hype in casual
- Doesn't have anything to set him apart in competitive
Captain Falcon definetely is in a unique situation.
Reason
Bad dash dance and bad recovery.
W
For Roy, the big reason is because meta shifts. The waves of DLC gave him four new bad matchups (Joker, Aegis, Steve, and Kazuya), and not only did many of those characters become meta, but many of the meta characters that Roy did well against (Palu, Wolf, ZSS, Lucina, Young Link, Wario, etc), even though they're still solid, aren't anywhere close to as prominent. Roy's good matchups became less prominent in the meta while his bad matchups became more prominent in the meta
so many top players also got shadow banned during the pandemic, a lot of them being character specialists. we just don’t have the same players/ characters competing anymore. kinda crazy
As a Lucina main, yeah thats the story. Great in the first meta in which most swordies were bad (Cloud, Corrin, Marth, Pit) or were different in their gameplan (Roy and Shulk). Ike was the closest to her but she had better mobility and recovery. However, one more swordies were buffed and added Lucina became an alternative and her lack of an X factor really hurt her in the meta. She needs to win neutral everytime to win, if she cannot do that, then she loses.
I love seeing that Shuton Myran clip (Shuton down-airs a pikminto recover 1:06), thanks for putting it in and reminding me it exists
Still wish the game had gotten more balance patches
Pika did NOT fall off btw. The DLC just joined him. He's arguably getting more popular because of ShinyMark. The fact he's still argued for top 5 shows how lucky we are people didn't pick him up earlier. Imagine if shinymark was playing like this a year after the game came out. Lmao
Ppl always talk about dlc 2 creep but it's rly just steve aegis and kazuya who are top tiers. Min min got balanced + figured out and the rest are balanced characters
Yeah he still does really well against most of the dlc if anything
People have been saying this about Pikachu even before FP 1 was fully out.
What about zss? She was quite literally considered top tier back in 2019/early 2020 and has now fallen so low she’s barely within to top 30 of the lastest tier list
It really is the nerfs she got coupled with many of her hitboxes just not working properly. Even though Marrs competes with her to this day, occasionally, I cant even count how many times someone has fallen out of her up smash in a last stock last hit game 5 scenerio
She got nerfed very hard. The up b nerf made a once always consistent reaction one of the most comital, risky moves in the game and to top it all off, characters fall out of it. Oh and now it has a slower start up time. So even though flip jump is a good move it’s no substitute for a proper punish out of shield.
They literally nerfed the fun right out of the character and it took a long time for ultimate players to admit that maybe it was a touch too much. Lots of visceral hatred against the character because, let’s be honest, she was good.
Her neutral is slightly worse because of nair nerfs. The only nerf that felt necessary was the bury mechanic.
Idk, it always felt unwarranted to me considering some of the players complaining already piloted very good characters like aegis, olimar, Steve g&w etc.
When you lose your top 10 representative, of course people will think your character has fallen off.
yup. that's pretty much all it is.
Since Joker is still very good, I wish you'd covered Palutena instead. This character is still very good, too, but nowhere near the heights that Joker has reached even recently.
A video on the rise of Diddy Kong from mid-tier to top tier would be cool
Edit : add the rise of Yoshi or Fox
What happens with these ""ex top tiers"" is the best rep retires/stops playing and people just start saying stuff. And it's the ones who were going to complain about the character regardless.
Lucina and Wolf are still very good imo. Especially Wolf. But until they see a top 8 Ik ppl won't be convinced.
In those 2 examples who do you consider the best representative because I only see a character who most people stopped playing him and barely hanging in there thanks to jakal and another who their best representative realized the limits of the character and even if he could comeback , he instead would be a Steve/min min dual main , also just making top 8 one time it’s not gonna cut it anymore , the player has to make a name for themselves specially when most characters in ultimate have managed to top 8 at majors and the best way to represent a character strength it’s being top 50 at least multiple seasons i feel
@@sa-x4213 Ouch/Jakal, and Proto.
Y'all have such strange and arbitrary standards for what determines a character's strength lol.
@@lokks2130the moment people stop seeing a character at their peak people are gonna say they fell off
@@lokks2130 i mean , Isnt that how you filter out gimmicks vs true strength ? Like I’m not saying these characters are gimmicks but you just need to look around you and the volatile meta of ultimate mus , also there’s a lot of characters who have different stories during the game and it’s far from solved but I’m saying what I said because these were popular and popular = can potentially reach their peaks faster / have a fan base that can adapt and discuss changes in the meta / counter play , of course im gonna question these characters who were prevalent before because of these reasons and also I got a different opinion , it’s not because they have fallen off the only reason , so we are just here to discuss views like any other site
@@lokks2130 and like i said ouch it’s really good but it’s not part of the current top heavy level and jakal is but it’s also hanging in there as the most relevant representation, proto now mains Steve / min min
Without having watched the video yet here’s my guess as to the answer.
“They were maimed by someone who was built different and who single-handedly made them top tier so when that person swapped or dropped off the whole character fell off”
And
“They were easy to master quickly or had fundamentals that transferred over from other games people had skill in, but weren’t necessarily the best characters outside that and when everyone had time to master the weirder characters they became less comparatively broken.”
I said lucina was overrated almost day one of ultimate. The character has a few glaring weaknesses and no x factor that even most mid and low tiers have. People used to say my opinion was crazy but here we are.
most lucina players did, but they kinda got drowned out because leo picked up the char
@@genki3466 didn't leo say lucina was a bit overrated and flawed some 5 years ago?
For real tho Lucina is still better than people give her credit for
facts
This video is heartbreaking as a Roy, Pokémon trainer and wolf main
Could you also make a video looking at the opposite? I remember when everyone said Diddy Kong was bad in Ultimate during the early days, including *REDACTED*, the top Diddy Kong player in Smash 4, but now he's considered top 10.
That's mainly because Diddy was actually not that good in early Ult, especially his recovery. He got many buffs throughout the game's lifespan to allow him to become as good as he is today
@@benji6325 Still a case of a character rising up the tier list. Also what about Steve?
@@TheLobsterCopter5000 Steve's rise would for sure be an interesting video
You could just not mention the person if you don’t want to use their name. It’s kind of dumb to reference him without referencing him to try to add merit to your claim. You could have just left it at “everyone said diddy was bad in ultimate during the early days…..” it accomplishes the same goal without being hypocritical.
@@bleachigo990 blatently avoiding the name by saying redacted is a joke don't take it seriously
The other weakness of wolf that makes him suffer is that his grounded moves aren’t threatening. If he had fox/Falco down tilt I think he would be even more versatile with a stronger mix up and combo game. Since he has almost strictly single hit moves and likes to go for aerials it becomes pretty easy to parry and punish as the player base becomes stronger.
At the start of Ultimate I was hoping to main Wolf and have R.O.B as a secondary. In some twisted way the student became the master. Will always be thankful for Arm Rotor's buffs tho.
I know this is like 1.0, but I think Inkling should be here too. As an Inkling/Pichu main since Day 1, it felt like a lava bukakke as Nintendo pounded them into the dirt.
Inkling was just never even broken, but the community overreacted about the ink mechanic and Roller. Inkling does have the best jab in the game because of the ink spam, and best dash in the game with the insane levels of pancaking, but her kill power is so lackluster that it balances each other out. As for Roller, just mash dawg. You don’t need a tutorial on how to mash, you just MASH.
It’s not like Inkling was ever a god at any one aspect of Smash either. She still gets walled out by disjoints, still has to wait 3 - 5 business days to kill, and still has pretty weak throws
Two combo throws, a kill throw and a throw that applies ink is not exactly what I'd call "pretty weak".
@@Garomasta Forward throw applies barely any ink and down throw stops combo’ing after 25%
@@InmateOmighty didn't they nerf that? In 1.0 the downthrow up air was easier right?
was gonna comment saying Inkling and Pichu should be on this list too.
This is what I have been feeling about all this characters , it’s obvious that if X character it’s struggling to get consistent results doesn’t matter the peak , that something it’s happening with that character , specially ones that had a lot of representation early on because that means more popularity = X character meta develops faster to the point it may peak and there’s a lot of not obvious details that only top level players will understand , so it’s nice to see vars sit and think about the role and strategies of these characters ; giving it a second thought , wolf barely hanging in there thanks to Jakal , proto now it’s not even playing lucina anymore ( he knows ) , etc.
As someone who plays wolf. I get that feeling of a generalist falling off.
Whenever I'm in a match there's always a moment when I think 'if I was playing x I could do this better'
Clearly if these characters had Xiangling, they would be top ti- oh wait wrong game
Is it crazy that I love playing almost all these characters? I've been a wolf main for most of the game, and I think PT is the coolest designed character in smash. I'm a sucker for characters that are finally great after years of struggling (sans wolf and Joker but i love their high mobility bait and punish playstyle) so even though I'm not an overly aggressive player I learned roy to get him into elite. I still think there's room for these characters to improve. I really want to see a wolf that combines CDK's technicality (footstool OOS and tech chasing is so dope) with Jakal's insane decision making, which if we don't get a smash 6 maybe we see that day.
I recently bought Kazuya and Steve and fought them as level 9 CPUs. And I immediately hated them, their CQ options are absolute planet busting and the only real counter I found is zoning tools like Mii Gunner/Samus and Wolf's Blaster. And even then their still a pain to deal with...
i miss pichu being on top
you could just say "Joker cant abuse how stupid Gun was anymore".
Wuthering waves music
reason: people learnt counterplay/dlc2 made them got shot down a few tiers
love the vid Yoshi vid?
Purely based off the thumbnail - haven't finished the video yet - joker is still extremely good.
I do think that joker "falling off" was pretty overblown, he is still obnoxiously powerful with Arséne and his projectiles are super powerful with great damaging normals without Arséne, but yeah he was not exactly no. 1 material, but I'd argue he's no. 9 over Diddy Kong if played optimally. Tldr joker never actually fell off, he was just overblown because he was overtuned on release
I don’t think Joker really fell off, yes he’s not top 1 anymore but I think most of that is simply because other characters have been introduced or gotten better. Most people I know put Joker in top 5 behind Steve, Sonic, Aegis and Kazuya. He got nerfed, but a lot of that stuff like downgun mainly made him harder and not overall drastically worse.
love this youtuber, keep plz make videos like thks
Meta changes contributed to it as well as more experience overtime caused those characters to get worse and more counterplay developed.
I main wolf and I have been cooking with reflector combos because of the high hit stun the attack gives
I think what also happened to PT was that a lot of meta characters outplay them. Being a jack of all trades type of character, there's not many characters that PT just wins against and there's a lot of figuring out what mon to play because of different playstyles/your playstyle/switching doesn't cause advantage. Look at the top played characters. (using 2023 data): Joker, Steve, Rob, Wolf, Aegis. There's only two of those that I feel like I can comfortably play. Rob, Wolf, and Aegis all have an advantage that PT will struggle with regardless of switching. Rob has projectiles and boxing that PT has to outplay, Wolf has aerial drift that PT can't keep up with, and Mythra is too fast to deal with. See PT's problem is Roy's problem, they have to engage. Razor leaf serves no benefit if thrown out all the time and it isn't really a spacing tool. Zard does have some pretty decent disjoints but you're still playing a heavy with range. PT is a brawler, grappler, jack of all trades type that seems like a good idea but one extreme too much on an opponent and it starts to fall apart like Wolf. But Roy is fast enough and punishing enough that his engagement feels worth it. Wolf is jack of all trades but he has a reflector, a projectile that protects and spaces, and air speed that makes up for this. PT gets to swap. Don't get me wrong I play this character for that reason but PT can get overwhelmed relatively easily and doesn't off much to make up for these shortcomings. Like what does PT do against min min? There's not a way to not engage with Kazuya. Projectile users greatly render this character like Samus and Young Link. PT works great against characters that don't change the rules of smash much. Like most players complain against G&W and consider him the pocket character. PT doesn't struggle against G&W like other characters do because PT is such a neutral heavy character and that's where G&W fails.
You just summed up perfectly why I’m slowly dropping PT ☠️☠️
@@Wrestleroftheyear it can be fustrating. Im dedicated to this character and love them but man their shortcomings can really suck. And i played a low mid tier in 4 so its not like im not used to it
@@trevorkeith3813 I respect it and feel you man I love pokemon and PT is really fun and great concept….but yeah you summed up the flaws really well.
If I wanted to main them I could make it work better but they’re my 3rd character so I’ll just keep em for fun, respects though ☠️
Definitely going to need a video on the opposite, Smash Ultimate's Ex Bottom Tiers. Gotta mention GnW in that one imo.
Wolf is as mid as a top tier gets. No jank, no offstage game, inconsistent ledge trapping. Look how many times top players fruitlessly throw out Dsmashes and Ftilts trying to 2 frame opponents. He’s a fun fundamentals characters but you’re going to need something more reliable and consistent at top level.
i thought i had wuthering waves accidentally turned on in the background.. just me?...
They fell off because the best players stopped playing them. After all this time, Smash fans are still judging how good a character is by how good they player is. Thought this would've stopped by now
Pichu was nerfed too hard in my opinion as it would had the wolf treatment also of everyone learning how to deal with it.
Do you think you can make a video on how the online meta has evolved?
PLEASE MAKE A YOSHI VIDEO HE IS MY IDOL
Terry isn't even Fighters Pass Vol. 2
Hey if Nintendo hates competitive smash so much, what's up with all the post release balances?
Thumbnail alone tells me this is pretty unreliable with Joker being there honestly. He is still top 5. Lol
Lucas punish game is good, upsmash alone is a bit silly, and footstool Oohs leading to a true universal infinite makes him seem like he should be good but no one plays him lmao
I like him. Hes got cool stuff.
Although his voice is annoying.
I guess the thing keeping people from using Lucas is the highly punishable recovery (unless you use snek)
@@asierx7047 he also has like no range.
that might be a factor, but his recovery is highly versatile if you learn about hakas and such
thats a wild thing to say lmao 💀
Top Roy players? Why the S? you mean Top Roy player.
Kola, Goblin and recently Sparg0 using Roy vs Sonix.
The luminosity tier list is not good, a tierlist shouldn't be based on players results, rather, on each character's potential and stats. Isabelle is not better than villager.
So basically Power Creep?
Sort of but it’s not like most of em really lost their top tier status at all
Wolf and Palutena are clearly top tiers and never had too many terrible matchups but in tournament they can get cheesed in a game where you either camp extremely hard or have an absurd punish game
So character wise they’re definitely top tier and never really went down at all, but in a bracket setting there’s more popular top tiers over the fact that they’re as simple but can be more rewarding a vast majority of the time
Please do a video on Zelda no one talks about her 🙏🙏
Can you do a why no one plays on Little Mac 🤭
What about Pac-Man? I have no clue how he fell off but he did.
I feel like smash fell off overall, game can’t stay No1 forever
joker is still top tier
Ike????
What about Pac-Man he fell of hard but there is no explanation why
He prolly fell off because:
- speed
- people stopped being surprised by all his weird shenanigans.
- idk how serious tea is anymore lol
@@lokks2130Pac-Man was never really seen as that big of a threat even early game
It was still mostly Tea and if anything does well in current meta as the game slowed down. Tea is still a Top 20 lvl caliber player and while he has a Kazuya in some sets, his Pac-Man is very much a threat and is around the same area as he’s been ever since Ult release
@@Alibaba-id1cs I'd still argue he had a fall off, as he was often put in top tier at the beginning of post quarantine. But he has mellowed out for sure.
@@lokks2130he wasn’t like that unanimous top tier character and I doubt the drop was like 10 characters down
At best I can see Pac-Man drop from barely a top tier to borderline top tier which isn’t a drop by any means
Plus with Palutena not being as common anymore and him being mostly solid against DLC other than Aegis and maybe Steve, he’s certainly around the same area I’d put him nowadays
There still not bad. Theyr still great.
Unless ur talkin pichu💀
yup
Krool 💀
I hate how they nerfed my girl Palutena. I used her dash attack into neutral air combo aaaallllllll the time. When they nerfed the hit stun on her dash attack they nerfed my interest in the game.
You were carried dawg 😂
ban nairo
Zsssux 🧠
I really wanna be supportive of Smash Ultimate but let's all be realistic here, no lying to yourself : We ALL lost a great deal of interest with the rise of Steve and Sonic. I used to never miss a major stream, now most of the time I just go "meh" and watch other games. Take out Steve and Sonic and watch the Meta become fun again. Deep down everybody knows that, some try to argue but they're lying. We. All. Know. This.
Steve is more game breaking than previously banned characters like Bayo and Metaknight. You dont need skill to play him. Just learn the ultra-coverage gimmicks and you'll instantly play several tiers higher than your actual skills would allow. Steve has WAY too much shit with effectively no answer to.
Sonic's stats are so overtuned that you could take off ONE THIRD of his speed and he'd still be the fastest character, thats how much faster he is than the second fastest (Cap Falcon) for fuck's sake. Plus Spin Dash. Plus great frame data. Plus insane recovery and edgeguarding.
I'd agree with you on Steve but Sonix and Ken haven't been winning lately. It's hard to justify Sonic is that broken when his top 2 players haven't scored big results this year. Game and Watch is more of a problem this year.
Meanwhile, Acola, Onin, Miya with Steve, and recently Crepe Salee have been scoring tournament wins across Japan, Europe and North America.
@@l.n.3372Steve has not won anything on the latter half of the year though. Acola showing cracks on his armor and the other Steve players aren't close to being as good as him. Unless they bring some new technology to the mix Steve might just have been figured out just like Sonic.
roy shouldn't have ever been top tier. everyone knew he sucks but copium from many put him higher up than he ever deserved to be.
? Why do yall just talk