Your videos got me looking at "oil additives" to increase the "good additives" to the base oil. I just wish I could see the ingredients or the amounts of additives in that "lil" bottle!
Excellent video - Nicely explained re mPAO and cPAO and how they can be both classed as fully synthetic - When mPAO comes into main stream motor oil - There will be big price premium!
So molecular hydrogen is the smallest molecule, if H2 has a hard time getting to the C=C bond, then it’ll be even harder for O2 or H2O to get to it. So oxidative stability is still pretty damn good. Is this not truce? The term is called Steric hindrance if anyone is wondering.
Yes. So there aren't going to be any 100% mPAO engine oils for that reason. Even if they're truly 100% synthetic, an mPAO will be mixed either with Ester or AN for two reasons - Esters and ANs help swell seals (and a little swell is desirable) and they help solvate polar additives, which an mPAO is not very good at, being a very non-polar molecule.
Great question! Not really - I’ll have to do a separate video on PIOs. They are an unusual case in that API considers them a Group V, but ATIEL defined a new category for them - Group VI.
Given the understandable secrecy of the (gasoline engine) oil.producers, where would a retail consumer be able to extract that specific “c” or “m” PAO information from with a particular product offering? Locating disclosures regarding product information is a daunting task and those marketing people in…a certain type of coat… are lurking everywhere-
@@LubricationExplained It’s rare to hear a product representative go into such detail and then explain the actual “details” being offered. (It’s a sophisticated pitch)
I can't speak for turbine oils but assuming that mPAOs are better (& to be honest, I suspect any differences will have been EXTREMELY over-hyped) I reckon I know how they will be used in engine oils. They will be slotted into test oils to help get though a problem engine test but will be replaced in commercial oils with conventional PAO. The Group IV base oil read-across rules simply assume PAO is PAO is PAO. The same applies to Group III+ & Group IIIs (ditto Group II & Group II+) as long as they're from the same supplier & classed as part of a defined base oil slate.
PAOs are made with varying mixed of LAO 8-12s these days. If you made a PAO out of straight LAO8, it would have excellent low temp properties but less advantaged noack. A good mixture is capable of providing near LAO10 performance. Personally cPAO vs mPAO is very slight but both far surpass Group III capabilities.
Mr Sensible right now GIIIs are trading in the real market at $5.50 -$7.00 per gallon. PAO4 ( most common grade in PCMO trades around $9.00/gallon. ) In normal market conditions, yes PAO is 2x higher, but the gap has been closed recently. Where PAO gets really pricey is the grades beyond 10 cSt and higher because there is no GIII offset to high visc PAO. The performance difference regarding VI Index, Shear Stability, Oxidation stability give much extended drain intervals on equipment that cost companies millions of dollars every time they lose productivity to switch out equipments oil. Since PAO trades on hybrid index usually taking ethylene into account and not crude oil price and derivatives, if GroupIII stays at this price level, PAO is much more competitive than when GIIIs are cheaper when crude is cheaper.
@@MycahRyce Interesting! I guess it makes sense though. The global economy is in a funk. Demand for ethylene is on the floor & this in turn drops PAO pricing relative to Group III, which is still very much in demand after the shift to GF-6. That said, I'd still say the case for PAO (and ester as a necessary co-base oil) as an automotive oil is fundamentally weak. For a fill-for-life industrial application, definitely yes. As a chuck-it-after-7500 miles of driving, no! And whilst in concept, extended drain always has a certain economic allure to it, who actually does it in practice? That bloke with his shiny Ferrari is NEVER going to run his oil out to 20,000 miles. He'll very likely dump it out at 3,000 miles! A criminal waste of good oil but he'll think he's 'looking after' his investment by doing this. In volume terms, Group III is where its all at & I suspect this will continue until the ICE dies its natural death in a couple more decades.
Wow, awesome conversation in the comments! My two cents: the necessity of higher quality base stocks in engine oils is mostly dictated by the service behaviour. When cars are sold with capped-price servicing that requires owners to return to the dealer every six months / 10,000km - PAO probably isn't going to be a make or break thing. But if you're doing your own servicing, longer drains, a bit of racing on the weekends or some other similar then there might be a case for it. In industrial on the other hand - whole different story and there's pretty wide application for the stuff.
Is Amsoil cpao and ester/an I dont believe it is and nobody at Amsoil will Answer I am told its a secret,but they advertise full synthetic? SHOW ME RESULTS.???
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Your videos got me looking at "oil additives" to increase the "good additives" to the base oil. I just wish I could see the ingredients or the amounts of additives in that "lil" bottle!
Glad it has increased your interest!
Excellent video - Nicely explained re mPAO and cPAO and how they can be both classed as fully synthetic - When mPAO comes into main stream motor oil - There will be big price premium!
Admire your knowledge. Its very helpful
Thank you very much
Glad to hear that!
So molecular hydrogen is the smallest molecule, if H2 has a hard time getting to the C=C bond, then it’ll be even harder for O2 or H2O to get to it. So oxidative stability is still pretty damn good. Is this not truce? The term is called Steric hindrance if anyone is wondering.
I wonder how motor seals will react to mPAO. Will 100% mPAO motor oil shrink motor seals?
Yes. So there aren't going to be any 100% mPAO engine oils for that reason. Even if they're truly 100% synthetic, an mPAO will be mixed either with Ester or AN for two reasons - Esters and ANs help swell seals (and a little swell is desirable) and they help solvate polar additives, which an mPAO is not very good at, being a very non-polar molecule.
How about Poly internal olefins (PIO)? Is it considered as conventional PAO?
Great question! Not really - I’ll have to do a separate video on PIOs. They are an unusual case in that API considers them a Group V, but ATIEL defined a new category for them - Group VI.
Given the understandable secrecy of the (gasoline engine) oil.producers, where would a retail consumer be able to extract that specific “c” or “m” PAO information from with a particular product offering? Locating disclosures regarding product information is a daunting task and those marketing people in…a certain type of coat… are lurking everywhere-
Why
Driven Oils specifically say they use mPAO in the engine oils:
ruclips.net/video/zyIVP7PNG4I/видео.html
@@MikeyAlbertin Thank you for the information-good video.
That's a really good interview.
@@LubricationExplained It’s rare to hear a product representative go into such detail and then explain the actual “details” being offered. (It’s a sophisticated pitch)
I can't speak for turbine oils but assuming that mPAOs are better (& to be honest, I suspect any differences will have been EXTREMELY over-hyped) I reckon I know how they will be used in engine oils. They will be slotted into test oils to help get though a problem engine test but will be replaced in commercial oils with conventional PAO. The Group IV base oil read-across rules simply assume PAO is PAO is PAO. The same applies to Group III+ & Group IIIs (ditto Group II & Group II+) as long as they're from the same supplier & classed as part of a defined base oil slate.
PAOs are made with varying mixed of LAO 8-12s these days.
If you made a PAO out of straight LAO8, it would have excellent low temp properties but less advantaged noack. A good mixture is capable of providing near LAO10 performance.
Personally cPAO vs mPAO is very slight but both far surpass Group III capabilities.
@@MycahRyce PAOs typically cost 4 to 5 times more than Group IIIs. Unless your daily drive is an F-16, they really aren't worth the trouble...
Mr Sensible right now GIIIs are trading in the real market at $5.50 -$7.00 per gallon. PAO4 ( most common grade in PCMO trades around $9.00/gallon. )
In normal market conditions, yes PAO is 2x higher, but the gap has been closed recently.
Where PAO gets really pricey is the grades beyond 10 cSt and higher because there is no GIII offset to high visc PAO.
The performance difference regarding VI Index, Shear Stability, Oxidation stability give much extended drain intervals on equipment that cost companies millions of dollars every time they lose productivity to switch out equipments oil.
Since PAO trades on hybrid index usually taking ethylene into account and not crude oil price and derivatives, if GroupIII stays at this price level, PAO is much more competitive than when GIIIs are cheaper when crude is cheaper.
@@MycahRyce Interesting! I guess it makes sense though. The global economy is in a funk. Demand for ethylene is on the floor & this in turn drops PAO pricing relative to Group III, which is still very much in demand after the shift to GF-6.
That said, I'd still say the case for PAO (and ester as a necessary co-base oil) as an automotive oil is fundamentally weak. For a fill-for-life industrial application, definitely yes. As a chuck-it-after-7500 miles of driving, no! And whilst in concept, extended drain always has a certain economic allure to it, who actually does it in practice? That bloke with his shiny Ferrari is NEVER going to run his oil out to 20,000 miles. He'll very likely dump it out at 3,000 miles! A criminal waste of good oil but he'll think he's 'looking after' his investment by doing this. In volume terms, Group III is where its all at & I suspect this will continue until the ICE dies its natural death in a couple more decades.
Wow, awesome conversation in the comments! My two cents: the necessity of higher quality base stocks in engine oils is mostly dictated by the service behaviour. When cars are sold with capped-price servicing that requires owners to return to the dealer every six months / 10,000km - PAO probably isn't going to be a make or break thing. But if you're doing your own servicing, longer drains, a bit of racing on the weekends or some other similar then there might be a case for it.
In industrial on the other hand - whole different story and there's pretty wide application for the stuff.
Cool 😎
Shell XHVI (TMO)
Thanks! Didn't know that.
Is Amsoil cpao and ester/an I dont believe it is and nobody at Amsoil will Answer
I am told its a secret,but they advertise full synthetic? SHOW ME RESULTS.???
i wonder if this is the mr "molakule"
I wish! No, just another enthusiast.
Phil is an older guy
@@LubricationExplained great info on this channel, i must admit.