Hope you all enjoyed the discussion! We spent a couple days together and had more conversations that aren’t shown here. This isn’t end of our conversations, but the beginning. Christians, please keep him in your prayers 🙏🏾🙌🏾
Dr Groove I think he’s only being respectful to other religions because they take up most of his audience. If he was to start disrespecting Christianity, he’ll lose a lot of support.
@@km0262 Facts unfortunately most people that can smell the bullshit of theism and religions are the ones that don't believe them. Muslims agree with athiests when they argue about stupid claims of Christianity and then Christians will agree with all the arguments against the outlandish claims of islam...
How about it just being a reverse correlation, he’s always nice to other religions therefore others are nice back to him, simple. No need to assume any kind of agenda.
Actually I was a Muslim, I left Islam 2015 October, after Jesus Christ appeared to me thrice in a year at different months. This happened when I prayed in my own language that whoever is God should show up. God is realer than me.
@@davidmjob3120 yes you are right, but the answers are all around us yet we are blinded by ignorance. We need to find the answers ourselves. Just pray sincerely from the bottom of your heart like I said, and also keep searching for your answers. :) Remember this, this temporary world is like a prison for the believers and a paradise for the disbelievers.
As an Ex Muslim Atheist, I want to thank you for doing this Jon! It's cool to see you two have this discussion, as you're my favorite theist youtuber without a doubt
Ex Muslim (Christian) from Pakistan. AP is my most favorite atheist guy. Praying for him and hopefully someday I’ll call him my brother in Christ🤞 AP looks cute with new hair cut😊
Great stuff Jon, we Christians will continue to pray for AP. May Jesus show up to him in similar manner as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus resulting in complete transformation in Jesus name.
Jesus must not care about all the atheists since he doesnt show them he exists. Its be pretty simple for him to do that. Any sign from him and I'd go back to being a Christian. No doubt.
@@davidwhite325 Theres more than enough evidence to prove the existence of God and the son of God, it just depends on weather your willing to seek it out. To most people its common sense to them so they dont need to. However, the fact that you expect God to prove his divinity to you in order for you to worship him is an act of pride, so God has no business granting your desire. Instead of doing that, simply seek him out sincerely because you want to know him and not because you just want to put him to the test, and he will reveal himself to you in some way shape or form. Guarantee. Pride is an issue with most people, its not that they have no evidence, its just that they wont accept any, possibly because they do not like God for what ever reason. Who reaps what they sow for praising God? you. Who reaps what they sow for rejecting God? you. Theres nothing you can take away from God because he is an eternal being. Having fellowship with him is simply for your best interest not his.
No one can proclaim Jesus Christ as lord and saviour without the Holy spirit. I plead to you.... please pray to the holy spirit to enlighten his mind and show the truth.
A.P is the only atheist I heard of that has no problem with people believing in God,and has questions,but also listens to possible answers and takes heed of them,trully one of a kind
@@commentfreely5443 I'll be pedantic and point out that other than the lack of belief in a deity, atheists can believe anything. If you're talking about atheists as people, then you may be right, but that's not atheism explicitly. Take humanism, for example, I would not describe that as a particularly negative world view, and there are plenty of atheists who adopt it.
God created us in his image (perfect) then gave as free will...it is our responsibility to choose the correct path, and when we don't, he will still be there to guide us if we choose to take that guidance.
I am always amused by Muslims who tell me that Islam is the "friend of scientific" inquiry because Islam demands its followers to think and contemplate life. My response is to point out that the wrong thinking and contemplation will get a Muslim in trouble and that fact is the very antithesis of any kind of "friend of science".
AP's head seems extremely flat sometimes because of the background. :D Btw. great interview, his objection against christianity is quite thought provoking. I will pray that he comes to Christ someday.
AP said he doesn't believe in God because it is ultimately God's fault for creating him knowing that he would reject God. Well, one possible answer to that objection is that although God knew AP would not believe in Him, He created him anyway to use AP's unbelief (and work on RUclips) to save many Muslims who would believe in God!
God tests each and every person and hes been tested with this, if he still continues to do so, he will be punished in the hereafter. This world is like a prison for the believers and a paradise for disbelievers.
@@Abdullah-bo4oj your fake God created man to test him and finally to send him to the hell الجحیم, in your world and religion heaven is for Terrorists and pedophiles like Mohammed who married a 6 years old girl. my God is alive and test no one to prove that mankind is imperfect. Jesus loves every one even you my friend, don't seek after a God who punish but who love even if you're not good.
Not only that, but where there's life, there's hope. God knows our possible choices, and He leads the Way, but we pick our path. It's not over yet for AP.
This was great. What AP doesn’t know is that everything that he’s gone through has brought him to this place for such a time as this. God has a way of working things out. I believe the same way he questioned Islam, he’ll question TRUE Christianity.
@@FGj-xj7rd the bible is both predestination and free will, so the holy word that*never* contradicts itself says it's your fault if your damned, because of free will, and it's thanks to the glory of God if your saved because he chose you before the foundations of the earth.
@@juniorrr9199 are you dumb? your interpretation of Allah guides whom He wills is different from imams. I am allowed to say May Allah guide you every muslim knows this
If someone doesn’t believe in free will, they can’t get mad at me for punching them in the face. I didn’t freely choose to punch them because I don’t have free will...
That's not true, they don't have the free will to not get mad, and punch you right back. I actually don't believe in free will, I think our brain follows physical processes, and if you rewound time, we'd make the exact same decisions (ignoring something weird like quantum physics). That does not mean I'm not for filtering out people who behave with random punching.
That’s an interesting perspective! I appreciate you sharing it. I also think if we rewound time, everything would be the same, but due to God’s providence.
Jon, As a person who has become exposed to the basics of Christianity through Christian apologetics, simply because I follow a lot of the prominent anti-Islam channels, I would say I agree with the assessment that Christianity and atheism are both benign beliefs, whereas Islam is unique in its commands for violence.
I agree with the main point of the OP and i appreciate the sentiments but there is more danger in secular or rather atheist beliefs in naturalism or materialism since there is no other compatible belief system they can operate under with the claim "I can only believe what is empirically verifiable" and these are the only notions of reality that match this description. This is the very reason why such dictators as Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong have reason to resort to communism which is simply state enforced atheism and control of resources for the collective "good". Also There have been a vast many heinous things done because of this belief in evolution from school shootings to mass murders of the 6 million Jews during the holocaust. I have to staunchly disagree that atheism is on equal footing morally with belief or trust in Jesus. Just wanted to clarify this a bit for those that are not well read on these subjects. BTW we all fall short so we all need a savior no matter how good we pretend to be. Thank God he sent his Christ to save us from ourselves.
@Shahid Imran Hussain easily. God is all powerful and can send himself if he so desires. Is this not something you agree with? If God is an all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being with a will and intellect vastly above that of our own then it stands to reason this is completely plausible if he exists.
@Shahid Imran Hussain Sir are you a Muslim? Also yes it makes complete sense that if God is all powerful then he can easily manifest himself in flash or any other form he desires and can still be consistently omnipresent. He pervades the creation and is above and beyond it. In order for it to exist he has to will for it to exist. Does that work better for you?
@apostateprophet I have a very important question for you. And I hope this helps give you insight. If God only creates the cats that he knows will accept him, do they really have a choice? Or have they been predetermined to say yes and accept him by the fact that there is no existing cats that could have, or did, reject him? My point is that I think by only creating cats that would not go to hell, God would be removing the choice/free will. There would be only the illusion of free will. Therefore, though he loves all his cats equally, he would create his cats with complete individuality and independence, even those he knows will someday grow up to reject him. God has given us all the tools we need to find our way to him, he has provided the sufficient sacrifice on the cross. The work to redeem us all has already been provided, therefore He has no moral burden for those who choose not to accept.
Actually God did not make men to die but he did give them the choice to die if they want to and they created the method themselves through a new nature born out of sin NOT made by God.
God saved him from islam. He will find God in his own time. The man is full of love. Seek and ye shall find. The greater the sinner the louder Gods angels rejoice in his salvation.
Qui Creva Sp Having a critical rational mind has led people to many different religions. What I find or what I come across a lot is that Christians tend to use this emotional or subjective argument of Jesus speaking to them and then say that Christianity is right because of this. So no I’m not wrong.
This is a really great video I think we can all take away at least one thing, which is even if you don't believe the same thing as someone you can sit down and have a civilized conversation with them.
@@deluxeassortment You missed the point of the analogy which is that knowledge =/= causation. If God created free creatures with full knowledge of what they would freely do, it doesn't mean that He caused their free choice.
@@danielcartwright8868 No, you missed the point of my comment which was that God supposedly had full control over the universe he allegedly created so that he could have made it so man had free will and didn't need to end up being condemned to eternal torment for something God created him to do.
@@deluxeassortment Unless you're referring to Calvinism (which represents a small portion of Christians), we believe that God did create man free, but that people go to hell because they freely reject Him. In fact, we believe that God repeatedly extends mercy to human beings, but that many continue to freely reject His appeals. Where are you getring this idea that God somehow created people to go to hell, or that a free person could never end up in hell?
I noticed this pattern where AP is talking about "believing in God" where WDYM talks about "believing God does exist". See that these are two different things? Believe is a complex term, and confuses the conversation in my opinion. AP, when you say you don't believe in God, do you mean that you believe he does not exist, or do you mean that you don't cling to the truths that this existence entails, like obedience, revelation, and - in your case especially - accountability? I remember Frank Turek asking this question: "if God exists as revealed in the Bible, would you become a Christian?" Ravi Zacharias mentions quite sharply: only in a universe where free choice exists, there can exist love. It's similar to the question of evil: evil exists only as the lack of good, so does condemnation only exist as a lack of justification.
This is so messed up, every christian in the comment section is trying to convert him how absolutely disgusting? That doesnt make you any different than his ex-religion.
The cheap way? Just need to use 2 minijack clip microphones.. record two sound tracks .. then sync them.. then cut them.. this video reminds me of this truism: "You can watch bad video but you cannot watch bad sound"
As usual I always enjoy your videos. It was wonderful to hear A Christian and a atheist discuss the existence of God in a nonconfrontational way. I’m a Christian and I have already been praying for the apostate prophet. I’m also praying for you and your family
I agree with almost everything Apostate Prophet said. Whether Christianity is a net positive in the world, I don't know. That would include a lot of factors. Islam clearly is not a net positive. There is no good evidence to believe that either are true so that is something of a drawback when considering one or the other and really, religious belief in general. No one can _decide_ to believe. They either have been convince, or they haven't.
@@km0262 What any religion needs to have is a maximum amount of humanistic ideals. So a religion would have to allow complete free speech, freedom of adult, consensual sexual freedom, freedom to leave the faith, freedom for women, and instruction information for children concerning the religion without using fear tactics to demand obedience. In the year 2019 Christianity is better at that providing those things than is Islam. Neither is without failings. Both religions do have positives perhaps in equal number.
@Brent Knoerl He's whole problem with the idea of God is the idea of hell. Because of which he says he doesn't "believe" in God. He really means trust not believe. Jesus is trustworthy if there is anyone you can trust with your life, it is Jesus. Only in Jesus, he can be reconciled to The Father and be Saved.
So, IF AP were the creator, people would automatically believe, animals would live in harmony, and law enforcement would be unnecessary? Is that his basic gist? I think the millenia of believers show that millions of people have followed the Living God, so God's plan seems to be working, while still allowing us free will. I'm so fond of AP, I'm going to pray that he surrenders his frail human opinion, and allow God to define WHO He is. Acts 17:30 declares, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, ..." People now have the Gospel, as fully as we'll ever have it on earth, so if millions of people have been brought to repentance through its message, what makes any man feel so special that God is incapable of producing something that will work for everyone? We're individuals, not produced by some divine cookie cutter. Our salvation experiences might be vastly different, but our Savior/Creator is the same.
@Prince of the Spirit You can't come unless the Father draws you [John 6:44]. When I was atheist, God made no sense to me either, and I sure didn't want him poking around in my life. I loved my sin; I wallowed in it. The Spirit of God turned me right side up, That hasn't happened for you yet, maybe never will.
@Muslim Why do you believe Allah when the Quran exposes him to be an imbecile? Have you never read a Quran? It's intellectual squalor from cover to cover, and offers nothing to you slaves other than hell.
Oh, and I only read what was visible in that little bell alert, but you need to make a video, because I'd break out in hives reading your pamphlet length screed.
@Muslim I should study Arabic because Allah was too stupid to know all languages? Why have you settled for such mindless claptrap? You have NO idea the number of Arabic speakers who are criticizing Islam, so you seem to comment from a platform of ignorance. Is it al Ahzab 36 that keeps you tarred and feathered in Allah's sticky pit of lunacy? At this point, noodle, I have 12 Quran translations. Eight by Arabic speakers, four by Orientalists. Are you trying to tell me that faithful Muslims have conspired with infidels to make Allah sound so pig-ignorant and depraved? Is that what you wish to share in this public venue? Tell me what al Kahf 86 & 87 teach us in Arabic? Can you upgrade that bit of stupidity? And remember your totem's lofty claims about his najis book. I think I know Islam better than you. I know I'd boil my own head before placing my brain on Allah's altar of sacrifice, or tossing my intelligence and morals into the foul Arab's sewer. If he was a "messenger", I'm Michael the Archangel.
@Muslim No, Muslim, not you. I was sloppy not to identify Prince of the Spirit. Your comments are short enough to be manageable! I thank you for that. _curtsies sweetly_
Excellent interview, God bless the both of you. 1. How would there be a valid moral law w/o a moral law giver? 2. What is the Apostate prophet’s believe as point of origin for hIs moral law? 3. Does he believe he is holy and would earn heaven by hIs own merrit if heaven would exist. 4. The door to hel is locked from the inside. 5. Why not Ask God for help even when you doubt his Existence? 6. If God exists, he is the origin of our moral law and Justice is part of the love and freedom we are given. Justice means we could go to hel and terrible things could happen to us, even through our own doing and wicked nature. I like the both of you a lot for you both want to stand for an honoust search for truth and for what is good.
@@signorasforza354 Now you're going to explain yourslf: why not? What is bad and wrong about becoming a christian? Now, focus: i DON'T care how you look at RELIGEONS, i'm not talking about your view nor do i care about it (another one of thousands same people's view of 21st century), and i'm no talking about RELIGEONS: i am talking about christian God and being christian.
@@signorasforza354 I said i don't care what you think about it. WHY objectievly it is fairy tale? What is tale about it, Jesus is historical figure, what is tale, can you prove it is a myth? You could have said that "i personaly don't believe in your myth", INSTEAD you put it as objective knowledge - prove it's a myth, or a lie, whatever. You can have your personal view on anything, but since you speak out - religeons, myths, tales, fairy-tales, beliefs are NOT same thing and NOT same value. Why it is stupid? What is stupid about the christianity? Loving your neighbor is stupid? Why loving you and respecting you as human being is not stupid? If it's not stupid - why when Bible says that it becomes stupid? I repeat again: what is bad and wrong about becoming a christian? All you atheist can only moan. Raise level of discussion, this is not how debate or seeking of truth is settled. Means on 50% you are living in your box AND you cna be MISTAKEN with such approach asyou don't investigate that you DON'T LIKE to chose, i.e. chosing the truth.
So happy to have found this video. I have been praying for AP since I discovered his channel and was curious as to why he became an atheist. Now I, along with thousands of others, will be able to pray more effectively, thank you. Also praying for you, your family and ministry, jon. This video should be compulsory viewing for all muslim apologists before they enter a debate with a Christian so that they can learn how to disagree respectfully.
No science or philosophy or compelling story led me to become an atheist. It was a slow process, caused by silence. I spent 38 years praying, doing devotions, taking theology classes, reading the Bible, trying to force myself to believe, always a bit of involuntary guilt in my mind. I asked God constantly to make himself known to me, and to wipe away the doubt and the guilt that came from it. I could only take it for so long before I finally just decided God either wasn't out there or had no interest in me. Either way, I jumped off the fence. So when you're out there blasting atheists for whatever preconceptions or fallacies or lack of evidence you perceive them to have, remember that some of then might have a more personal story, and it might be better for you to listen than to talk.
I sympathize with you Alkyl. I think the reason you receive those reactions is because the majority of atheists we confront are those found here on the internet and youtube threads. I think these forums tend to attract a certain type of atheist. Usually the militant ones, many of which would say that they wouldn't follow God even if He revealed himself to them. It then becomes a normal reaction for theists to expect similar behavior and stories from you. Its wrong and should be checked but its also quite natural. I'd like to consider myself a bit more intellectually honest than the average Christian or theist but over the past year I have chosen to engage atheists for a few reasons. First, to find out why they are what they are. What makes them tick? Why is it that I can look at the same thing they do and read it completely different. Second, to test my own arguments and either strengthen them, mediate them, or remove them all together. And finally to build mutual respect between these opposing factions and come to a common understanding that atheists can hold to their beliefs rationally as can I. I have hoped to find the diamond in the rough conversation. A conversation with an atheist that is open minded, intellectually honest, humble, pleasant to talk with. Out of the hundred people, give or take, that I have talked with, I have yet to find this "diamond in the rough". Only a few have come close and those were pleasant and enjoyable conversations. Even so, since so many do not even come close to being a diamond in the rough I have recognized myself becoming more cynical towards atheists in general. I become frustrated with people much quicker and I have lost some of my faith in humanity. But to the point of this conversation and what you wrote, I find myself applying more stereotypes to atheists then I should. Its hard not to when so many of them, proportionally, have been sub par in my opinion. Thank you for reminding me that not all atheists deserve these stereotypes.
I hear you.i was never really religious but believed in a God of some sort because of hearing the name God. Never went to church but when a friend asked me was I saved and took me to church it basically did it for me. Hear in different pastors saying almost contradictory messages often raised questions.
@@blusheep2 I think it's the same on both sides. I've only met a few Christian's that dont judge or refuse to speak to you anymore. I've encountered some Christians that say disagreements about christianity from believer or non believer makes them want to fight. Remember many atheist have to stay in the closet. So it's not like many Christian's are understandind of different beliefs.
@@blusheep2 I have a feeling a great many of those militant atheists have a similar story. Almost every atheist I know either grew up in a religious home and felt emotionally abused or left a faith for similar reasons to me. RUclips isn't exactly the best place for genuine conversation, because comments can seem so cold and empty. About the refusal to follow God even if he revealed himself-- I think people who have immersed themselves in atheism have come to the conclusion that if God revealed himself, one couldn't be sure that he is who he says he is or if the religious experience is just a halucination. These are hard atheists, and there's really no point in engaging with them. Might I suggest starting with asking their story, about why they are an atheist? And maybe refrain from trying to tell them anything (they've probably heard it all before, or they're just going to go look up a response to your claims). Practice street epistemology. I personally try to come up with my own responses to people's claims, and give them a chance to put me in my place. I also like to ask people about what it is that assures them God is real, what religious or spiritual experiences they've had. It will take a long process of examining each claim from both sides before I begin to change my position. 38 years is a long time to develop a worldview, after all. Can I ask, how would you define this "diamond in the rough"? What does that mean to you exactly?
@@justchilling704 Yeah, hopefully he will study quite a bit of the moral arguments in favor of the God of the Bible/Christianity, since it seems he is hung up on the idea of free will and the morality of eternal punishment. I focus more on the interaction of science and Christianity and Christianity and the public square, but I know of some amazing people better equipped than I to answer AP's questions. Not that Jon didn't do a great job, but it seems AP might require a much more academic answer.
For what it's worth. When I de-converted from Christianity I did study the arguments from the best sources, in earnest. The moral argument, biblical inerrancy, the problem of suffering, the teleological argument, historicity, the issue of hell, contradictions, etc. Non convinced me to return. Not because I refused to accept them, but I found them unconvincing, weak, and creating more questions than answers.
Dear Brother, I am also an ex Muslim from India.. I am watching your videos for the past one year.. Also I am taking most of the notes from you.. I would like to translate the conversation of this video in my language.. for knowledge purpose so please give permission to do this Brother.. Thank you
The freewill question reminds me of the book of Job. Job questioned God's motives and God thoroughly explains to Job that he does not have the mental capacity to understand God's purpose for the things He does.
I liked the ending! LoL, you should ask him the Frank Turek question, "if christianity were true, would you believe" but in regards to the existence of God. Keep up the good work to both of yall, WDYMeme & AP 😉
He mentions how even in our belief in christ we are flawed, but as a Christian I would say to him to read Roman's chapter 6, that our belief in Christ causes us to be new creatures, not bound by sin, dead and crucified with christ, we are not flawed beings anymore because of grace in christ. Christianity is about transformation, not just about trying to get to heaven, it is about restoration to what you where intended to be, and eternal life is found in God. Thanks for the discussion and peace.
For what it's worth. I de-converted from Christianity and I underwent a transformation. I'm a better person now than when I was religious. I understand morality now after reading Sam Harris. I understand what morality is, how it works, and why it's important. I could never figure that out when I was a Christian. It's like you can interpret the Bible to justify anything. Also of much relief, I understand how nature works, my place in it, and how precious moments are in this short temporal life span. I'm filled with awe and curiosity every day. I am changed. No god required. I don't mean this as an attack on your beliefs. Just a personal anecdote
Hello Apostate Prophet and Whaddo You Meme?? (german is under the english version, I am a German excuse me for my English^^) I want to answer you in English and in German because I think I have an another important point of your problem to your question with god. The question was "When God createt a human and God knows that the human makes the wrong decision and the human goes to hell, why should God create this human (what the meaning of this) ?" When I have an good answer then i wrote again, but now I want to say that you can not forget the historical facts about Jesus and his resurrection. The gospel, extra-biblical sources, historians of that time (Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, etc.) and some scholars today agree that Jesus Christ was crucified. Moreover, the resurrection is the best possible explanation of the whole. If that really happened, with the crucifixion and the resurrection, then Jesus is the one who he cklaimed to be, the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth. I just wanted to give you this train of thought. Although this train of thought does not answer your question exactly, but in terms of what has happened in the world about 2000 years ago, you must necessarily consider, because this may answer your question something. If you believe in the 2000 years ago that Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the third day and that Jesus is God, then you can not shy away from this fact, that God showed himself then and that he gave us humans a sense of life. Nevertheless, I find your question very interesting and difficult to answer, but I did not want to leave that fact out of context. Brotherly Greetings, Rick from Germany :D --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hallo Abtrünniger Prophet und Was machst du? Ich möchte dir auf Englisch und Deutsch antworten, weil ich denke, dass ich einen weiteren wichtigen Punkt zu deiner Frage mit Gott. Die Frage war: "Wenn Gott einen Menschen erschafft und Gott weiß, dass der Mensch die falsche Entscheidung trifft und der Mensch zur Hölle fährt, warum sollte Gott diesen Menschen erschaffen (welcher Sinn steckt dahinter)?" Wenn ich eine gute und genaue Antwort habe die das genau beantwortet dann schreibe ich dir noch einmal, aber jetzt möchte ich sagen, dass du die historischen Fakten über Jesus und seine Auferstehung nicht vergessen darfst. Das Evangelium, außerbiblische Quellen, damalige Historiker (Flavius Josephus, Tacitus usw.) und einige Wissenschaftler stimmen heute darin überein, dass Jesus Christus gekreuzigt wurde. Darüber hinaus ist die Auferstehung die bestmögliche Erklärung für das Gesamte. Wenn die Kreuzigung und die Auferstehung wirklich passiert ist bzw. wahr ist, dann ist Jesus der für den er sich selber gehalten hat, Jesus ist dann der allmächtige Gott, der Himmel und Erde erschaffen hat. Ich wollte dir nur diesen Gedankengang geben. Obwohl dieser Gedankengang deine Frage nicht genau beantwortet, sondern in Bezug auf das, was in der Welt vor etwa 2000 Jahren passiert ist, muss man dennoch ganz klar berücksichtigen. Wenn man das vor ca. 2000 Jahren glaubt, dass Jesus gekreuzigt wurde und am dritten Tage auferstanden ist, dann bekommt der Mensch wieder einen Sinn des Lebens. Nichtsdestotrotz, ich finde deine Frage bzw. Gedankengang sehr interessant, trotzdem möchte ich diese Tatsachen nicht aus dem Zusammenhang heraushalten. Brüderliche Grüße, Rick aus Deutschland :D
AP is not a mainstream atheist. He knows whats the real problem to fight & focus on. Respect for him, also pray for him that the True God Yashua Hamasiakh will show him His way ❤️🙏
At around 14 minutes there's the conversation about creating a cat or not creating a cat, the objection is that the cat was created knowing it would decide to go to Hell. But this objection is doing three things: 1) Appealing to morality without grounding, 2) It insists upon determinism without actually allowing for free will, and 3) Ignores the effects of the evil cat upon others which might enable a better world than one without "that darned cat" (great movie btw 😉). As long as there exists an outcome better on the whole even with that darned cat than other possible worlds, then God is still Good in creating that darned cat. Also if that darned cat was created differently, then it would be a different cat in a different possible world and not the same darned cat. I recommend looking up Alvin Plantinga's argument about transworld depravity. Great conversation!
Sure some people will be born into situations where they are less likely to accept the saving Grace of God but to prevent such a thing to happen he would have to either prevent millions of parents from having babies each year, destroying their free will to have children, or force people who want to live their life on their terms to accept him. God does appear to people in Islamic and pagan nations, and he does reveal himself to those who dilligently seek him. Just look at AP if he has been seeking God with an open heart then just look at all the servants of God he has had the chance to speak with in his fight against Islam
"force people who want to live their life on their terms to accept him" Well you have to start by showing that he exists so people can consider accepting him. That's where people are born into unfair situations. He could prevent such situations without preventing babies or forcing people to accept him. Just provide more than a book and parental teachings that are regional.
@@Kevorama0205 Our very ability to reason points us the knowledge of God, just think of all the philosophical arguments that can be made for the existence of God. The fine tuning argument, the moral argument, the design argument, etc.. And once you have a good reason to believe God exists or even the possibility of Gods existence then you can put all options on the table and see where to go from there. To me personally the historical evidence for the raising of Christ from the dead was greatly needed but even more so was the book 'Imagine Heaven' that goes through all these experiences were people died for a little while and were then resuscitated who claim to have seen Jesus. The key is to have an open heart which can be so difficult at times and a lot of us who openly ask dont really want to know the answer we just want our already held beliefs to hold true. I do hope you seek openly Kevin as the love and acceptance of your creator is the most fulfilling thing.
@Vinsanity997 "Our very ability to reason points us the knowledge of God, just think of all the philosophical arguments that can be made for the existence of God. The fine tuning argument, the moral argument, the design argument" We are pretty bad at reasoning. And there's no reason to think a flawed ability to reason requires a God. Fine tuning would only be relevant if we had any evidence that any of those quantities could be tuned differently, which we don't, or if there were not millions of other non-tuned scenarios that never observed themselves (anthropic principle). The moral argument is either an argument from consequences, or asserts that morality is more than preference without justification. Either way it fails to show anything. The design argument assumes the appearance of design requires design, but also asserts that sand and people are equally designed, despite sand not appearing designed. Regardless, there's no evidence of people being designed, no matter how much you think it "appears" so. There is no historical evidence of the resurrection outside the Bible, and miracles need more justification that anonymous reports. Obviously I could go into counter-arguments more, but just because an argument can be made doesn't make it a good argument. "I do hope you seek openly Kevin as the love and acceptance of your creator is the most fulfilling thing." I suppose I'll let the entity that supposedly knows I exist and already loves me make the first move, then. I surely cannot seek God better than he can seek me. So I'll place my faith in him to do so if he does exist and it's in his plan. Should I not have that hypothetical faith?
@@Kevorama0205 I must disagree with your reasons/ objections to the philosophical arguments provided as I dont think you're neccessarily giving them a fair shake. The complex information of DNA is indeed more complicated than sand, morals do seem to be only mildly influenced by culture (Im going out on a limb to say that though) and without God as a creator and judge all the injustice in the world is completely inconsequential and without him as a standard for right and wrong such concepts become only opinions. Even the universe from nothing is proof enough that there must be an uncaused cause which shows itself to be intelligent in being able to form complex life. I do agree with you though that God must first seek someone before they accept or reject his offer of love and salvation. I just wonder if this humble moment could be one of the many steps God takes to reveal himself to you. Have a great day Kevin
I really feel for APs inability to reconcile the doctrine of hell with a loving God. It is the ultimate “carrot and stick” motivator towards, at least, thought of God tho. Jordan Peterson has spoken at length about the usefulness of developing an idea of something terrible to avoid and something potentially wonderful to aim for, to give oneself direction. The fear of a child of mine, rejecting salvation and being damned, was the biggest reason I chose not to have kids. I still don’t like the concept of hell but I know God is loving. He’s proven that to me, by dying on the cross for my sins. Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? I trust God that this is the only way to ultimately deal with sin and balance justice and mercy. God is the only one qualified enough to make the call. I am not God.
Shameless Papist I don’t know what scriptural support you could offer to support your view, in light of John 3:18. Unbelief is enough because we are born spiritually dead and sinful. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (Ezk 33:11) I have no problem lamenting for the lost. I just don’t ultimately hold God, but them, responsible. It still tragic. Sin sucks.
AP, my fav atheist, consider this: If God exists, then He necessarily is our superior. Also our intellectual superior, by a long way! If you accept that hypothesis, then any argument for atheism that starts with "Why would God..." fails. We cannot reject an intellectually superior being because of our inability to comprehend His reasons for doing things.
consider this: if god dosent exist then all his superior intellect isent there. thus your statement is false because it only wants the questioner to stay silent basically like Islam don't question which is stupid in itself.
@@mylucidadventures6540 My objection to "Why would God..." arguments is that it assumes intellectual equality with an intellectually superior being. I'm not saying you can't ask hard questions. I'm a Christian because I followed the evidence. I'm just saying that "Why would God..." questioners should ask that question with the appropriate humility, considering they are investigating a being that, if He exists, cannot be fully comprehended by finite human minds.
@@shreeded easy, if we are to assume the Christian God is real and morally superior to us then we can't ask questions and that's bull I will not accept that because there is no evidence for your God. When I ask Christians why would god... It's not because I believe he exists and I just don't understand him, it's to show the flaw in the reasoning of assuming he exists even when the bible condones so many evil things.
Yup it is a good read and now I've found a renewed heart in Christ Jesus. "The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and will condemn them. For she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, greater than Solomon is here."
The paradox he brings up shouldn’t kill his belief in God altogether. It should only cause him to doubt a god/God with specific attributes that contradict(seemingly)
I'll give a short answer from my Calvinist perspective. Free Will is not autonomous and Mankind is not a morally neutral creature. Since the fall, man is devoid righteousness, which we call sin. God does not force this kind of will upon us, it is the reality without his covering of righteousness. God is not obligated to make men righteous, but he does so out of his mercy. The wicked don't want God's righteousness, so the "unfairness" to them would be God arresting their will and changing them, which he does with Christians. When it comes to Hell, it is God's demonstration of his Justice and Wrath upon sin. The sinful man doesn't complain about wanting to be conformed, he wants the reality of his choice without the interaction of God. In short, *God doesn't have to make men sinners, he has to make them righteous*
For the cat question (13:30) in the vid basically during your life you meet different people and these different people have ROLES they play in a persons life so let's say "the cat's" whole lifes purpose is to strengthen someone else's faith. Like in the romans 9:17 "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." In this passage the scriptures says to pharaoh (a verry bad man in the bible)
Humans tend to look at choices only as what actually happens and not the entire range of what is possible may happen. AP shrinks it down to a false dichotomy of one single choice and God knows the outcome of that single choice. I look at choices as a full spectrum of possible outcomes, and God's foreknowledge is not limited to what actually happens, but all of the possibilities of what could happen based on our freewill. Thereby, God works to guide us to the right choices. We tend to think of our choices as a bent line of choices we've made that guide our path, but God sees a tree of possible futures based on the outcomes of all of our possible choices. To me, that better defines omniscience rather than only what will actually happen (the choices that we actually make as opposed to the choices we may make).
By that logic it would mean that God is not omniscient. If you believe that because I think some Christians dont hold to that. God knows everything before it happens according to some. Assuming that he only knows what the possible outcomes are undermines God's abilities I think most Christians would say. If the original teaching were God can see possible outcomes but doesnt know for sure, I think that would be a better argument and easier to defend.
@@jabeavers I think you misunderstand what a false dichotomy is or how it works. AP never said that it's only limited choice. He knows possibuliturs may be endless. He saying that if God knows what choices you make before you make them as well as the possibilities. If he doesn't do anything to give you the best choice only than you have no choice. If God's will be done you cant do anything about it. If I give you a. Choice to walk out the door but tie you down. You have the will to walk out but I'm restricting you.
I don't get it, Show himself like the Evidence for the Resurrection. And the thing with the Divine hiddeness objection is that it's just basically the same thing as the religious experience argument and not popularised for the same reason.
I think Apostate Prophet's argument can be summed up as this: 1. If someone willingly does something knowing it will have a certain consequence, they are responsible for that consequence. 2. If God as described by Christians and Muslims exists, he willingly creates certain people knowing that they will, as a consequence, go to hell. 3. Therefore if God as described by Christians and Muslims exists, he is responsible for people going to hell. (by 1 and 2) 4. Someone who is responsible for people going to hell is not morally good. 5. If God as described by Christians and Muslims exists, he is morally good. 6. Therefore God as described by Christians and Muslims does not exist (by 3, 4, and 5)
Nicely summed up. My brother used to constantly try to convert me back to Christianity but couldn't convince me the God of the bible was moral based of the doctrine.
22:00 the example of someone born in Saudi Arabia who won’t believe the Gospel. Confirmed, AP needs to discover Molinism and Transworld Damnation concept.
I personally think & feel that Love of Christianity will eventually win AP... even though he says the "whole hell thing" is the reason why he's still an atheist.
Apostate Prophet I really respect how you handle these conversations. Something to think about: In order for God to create a being made in His image that had free will, would He have to create one that even He would not know what they were going to do until they existed? I know people argue that God is all powerful and all knowing etc. and He is. However, He also created a covenant that He cannot break. Praying for you!
Good interview. He talks a lot about morals. And keeps on stealing from God to argue against Him though! Where does everything come from then? Atheists want to answer that by stealing from God. Good book to get is Frank Turek’s “stealing from God”
Leaves old religion with bad/no evidence, joins new religion with bad/no evidence, and the cycle continues.
5 лет назад+4
@apostateprophet It is not that God commands us to do something and does not supply us to do that. He wants us to realize that without Him we cannot do anything, we cannot reach the purpose of our life by our own strenght- and it forces us to draw near to Him, to call upon His name- because He wants to be our supply, to fulfill the meaning and purpose for which He created us-
In the cat analogy, he described a cat without freewill. The cat he described was fatalistically determined. If God truly gave us freewill, then he would only know the consequences of our choices. God wouldn't be the cause of our choices. So either God gave us freewill or not, it can't be both.
Did the angels have free will? I often hear it said God made men so he would have a being with free will that could choose to worship him, and the angels were made to worship him. So, if the angels didn't have free will, then how did they manage to go to war in heaven? Maybe it's not so black and white. Soft determinism: Everything that's ever happened to you, every choice, every consequence, every choice your parents ever made, and their parents, and their parents, combined with the neurotransmitter levels and physical pathways... ... It all culminated in to affecting how you would make your next choice. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, as described by the Bible, surely he could be powerful and knowledgeable enough to have freewill and not have to risk annihilation of our souls .
J'adore Alles How would that be better for him. If he comes to a belief in Christ and Christianity is false, he’s still gained a lot. If he becomes a Christian and Christianity is true, he’s gained all that and eternal life with the creator of the universe.
J'adore Alles A fellowship of fellow believers. The belief in objective human value. The belief in objective morality. The fulfillment of the fundamental human desire for purpose. Hope for the future. A coherent worldview. Depending on how far one goes into theology, I’d say a greater grasp on philosophy and possibly science (Christianity has caused me to have a greater interest in science). And a general more positive outlook on life. And if it’s true, you get all that and you get to live eternally in a world without sadness and pain.
The claim that God knows the future is what confuses people like Apostate Prophet. It confuses Christians, too. But the paradox only exists because people have unintentionally restricted God. It isn't that God knows "the" future. God knows "every possible" future, and every branch off every human choice, and He knows how He will respond to whatever future transpires. It is only possible because God is infinite, but humans have a hard time grasping what infinity really means. That is how God can give humans free will and still be sovereign over creation. People mistakenly think that history had to unfold exactly as it did. They are wrong. When God gave people a choice, He gave them a real choice. Bad choices by humans can't derail God's plans because God is still steering the bus of history. If man's poor decisions -- like Israel refusing to enter the Promised Land -- throw up a roadblock to the straight path, then God takes a detour. In the case of Israel in the wilderness, that detour was forty years. When Israel rejected her Messiah, the detour has been much longer -- almost 2000 years and still going. But God hasn't given up on His plans for Israel. They could have had the Millennial Kingdom way back then if they had chosen well. If God simply knows every choice people will make in advance, and knows how He will respond in advance, then not only do humans not have free choice, but neither does God. He's only responding to His script as it interacts with our script.
Maaaan these people were really respectfull towards each other,like for real,and that’s something thing I usually don’t see in discussions of this sort and subject in videos and comments.Bravo
If I may ask, where'd you get that impression? The fact that he saw Christianity as less scary than Islam, is not really an endorsement of Christianity.
@@rodneygardner7421 Fair enough. I'm not sure I would speak more highly of Christianity, but I would definitely speak more highly of Christians, political issues in the US notwithstanding.
Apostate Prophet falls into the same trap that most atheists do and that is putting God into this human sized box. Assuming that God's perception of reality is as limited as ours. See we're 3 dimensional creatures (4 d at most) and we exist in a 10 dimensional universe. So when we're talking about a 10th dimensional creature (God, who is either a creature of the 10th dimension, or is indeed the 10th dimension itself) we limit his ability to experience reality based on our own limitations. God gets to experience a universe in which every one of his human creations is "saved" ... has chosen to be with him. Whereas these human creatures get to experience an infinite number of outcomes. EXCEPT that our individual consciousness only experiences one path through this mess. So the point isn't to decide whether you get to be with God or not, because at least one version of you (and likely millions) will. But you get to decide whether the single point of consciousness you're experiencing gets to ride the path to heaven or hell.
The point is all about a story writer. Because that story is the mirror of existence even of the writer. No resistance no light and no light no darkness of shadow hence no resistance. Best regards brothers.
Hope you all enjoyed the discussion! We spent a couple days together and had more conversations that aren’t shown here. This isn’t end of our conversations, but the beginning. Christians, please keep him in your prayers 🙏🏾🙌🏾
Will do !
Yes...Amen!
I have been following him for awhile and am a patreon. I have been praying he will know Jesus
@xxxPassiexxx what is the difference between atheist Buddhist and just a Buddhist? Are not all Buddhist atheists?
I love you guys! Keeping it real, honest and civil.
Thank you! I really enjoyed having this talk and our conversations in general. Hope to see you again soon.
Your Welcome
Same, bro! Looking forward to hanging and chatting again soon! Blessings, bro.
AP, God bless you.
Make video on karbala battle
make video on Allah's name written on cloud, animals etc
Normally when atheists and theists talk, it's so incredibly exhausting and draining to listen to. This, on the other hand was quite the opposite
I love how respectful the Apostate Prophet is. Other atheists just seem arrogant and looking down on religious people.
Dr Groove I think he’s only being respectful to other religions because they take up most of his audience. If he was to start disrespecting Christianity, he’ll lose a lot of support.
@@km0262 Facts unfortunately most people that can smell the bullshit of theism and religions are the ones that don't believe them.
Muslims agree with athiests when they argue about stupid claims of Christianity and then Christians will agree with all the arguments against the outlandish claims of islam...
How about it just being a reverse correlation, he’s always nice to other religions therefore others are nice back to him, simple. No need to assume any kind of agenda.
@@gaunterodimm3569 right
@@km0262 A lot of exmuslims become Christians so it makes sense they still respect God and Holy Books
Actually I was a Muslim, I left Islam 2015 October, after Jesus Christ appeared to me thrice in a year at different months. This happened when I prayed in my own language that whoever is God should show up.
God is realer than me.
"God is realer than me." - Exactly the same feeling that i had becoming a christian.
Pray like this, whichever religion is the truth guide me to that, because god doesn't appear in Islam unless you reach heaven.
@@Abdullah-bo4oj I respect your opinion my friend, but don't you think, it's better to figure that out here than expecting answers after death?
@@davidmjob3120 yes you are right, but the answers are all around us yet we are blinded by ignorance. We need to find the answers ourselves. Just pray sincerely from the bottom of your heart like I said, and also keep searching for your answers. :) Remember this, this temporary world is like a prison for the believers and a paradise for the disbelievers.
@@davidmjob3120 Think wisely, cuz we cant return once we die, it will be an eternal life of joy or horror afterwards.
As an Ex Muslim Atheist, I want to thank you for doing this Jon! It's cool to see you two have this discussion, as you're my favorite theist youtuber without a doubt
Ex Muslim (Christian) from Pakistan.
AP is my most favorite atheist guy. Praying for him and hopefully someday I’ll call him my brother in Christ🤞
AP looks cute with new hair cut😊
If your a ex Muslim Christian then u won't be for long
Good
s r i am 10 year ex moslim
@@fatimaachy5764 and so am I'm from Pakistan
s r. are you an ex muslim?
Great stuff Jon, we Christians will continue to pray for AP. May Jesus show up to him in similar manner as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus resulting in complete transformation in Jesus name.
AP doesn't persecute Christians, so the closer analogy maybe the eunuch from Ethiopia (?)
@@jesussaves7872 I'll say one of 12 disciples
@@jesussaves7872 just saying that he is in need of a total transformation. Not comparing him to Paul.
Jesus must not care about all the atheists since he doesnt show them he exists. Its be pretty simple for him to do that. Any sign from him and I'd go back to being a Christian. No doubt.
@@davidwhite325 Theres more than enough evidence to prove the existence of God and the son of God, it just depends on weather your willing to seek it out. To most people its common sense to them so they dont need to. However, the fact that you expect God to prove his divinity to you in order for you to worship him is an act of pride, so God has no business granting your desire. Instead of doing that, simply seek him out sincerely because you want to know him and not because you just want to put him to the test, and he will reveal himself to you in some way shape or form. Guarantee.
Pride is an issue with most people, its not that they have no evidence, its just that they wont accept any, possibly because they do not like God for what ever reason. Who reaps what they sow for praising God? you. Who reaps what they sow for rejecting God? you. Theres nothing you can take away from God because he is an eternal being. Having fellowship with him is simply for your best interest not his.
Please pray for my muslim husband salvation. His name is mohamed ribai.
God bless u bro. Love from India
Heavenly Father,
Thank you lord for another Day of Life; L.O.R.D. please break the chains that bind Mohammed ribai. Your Will be done. Ameen.
@@friendlyfire7509
Amen
God bless you, sister.
No one can proclaim Jesus Christ as lord and saviour without the Holy spirit. I plead to you.... please pray to the holy spirit to enlighten his mind and show the truth.
@@albertwilsonpaul8441 so people can lose salvation?
A.P is the only atheist I heard of that has no problem with people believing in God,and has questions,but also listens to possible answers and takes heed of them,trully one of a kind
Amen
Wdym? All the major atheists in the world also have no problem with people believing in his as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone
@@moma8518 Have you seen atheists in the comment sections of religious videoes?
Ha ha ha ha ha I like that last bit. "Stay away from Islam"? "What do you meme"?
Apostate Prophet is legit. I respect that you posted this your channel. 👊
man, atheism is so negative. they seem to have an empty glass a lot.
@@commentfreely5443 What a bizarre comment.
@@commentfreely5443 I'll be pedantic and point out that other than the lack of belief in a deity, atheists can believe anything. If you're talking about atheists as people, then you may be right, but that's not atheism explicitly. Take humanism, for example, I would not describe that as a particularly negative world view, and there are plenty of atheists who adopt it.
@TrustMeImAScientist1 One point of clarification, an atheist doesn't believe in any polytheistic gods either.
Not used to seeing AP at this angle. Almost didn't recognize him 😅🤣😂
Two of my favorite RUclipsrs!
Are you talking about Acts17Apologetics? 😂😂😂😂
@@isaiah53apologetics56 am referring to What do you meme and Apostate Prophet.
God created us in his image (perfect) then gave as free will...it is our responsibility to choose the correct path, and when we don't, he will still be there to guide us if we choose to take that guidance.
I am always amused by Muslims who tell me that Islam is the "friend of scientific" inquiry because Islam demands its followers to think and contemplate life. My response is to point out that the wrong thinking and contemplation will get a Muslim in trouble and that fact is the very antithesis of any kind of "friend of science".
AP's head seems extremely flat sometimes because of the background. :D
Btw. great interview, his objection against christianity is quite thought provoking. I will pray that he comes to Christ someday.
Borbála M.K. 😂😂
He's got a turkish block head
AP said he doesn't believe in God because it is ultimately God's fault for creating him knowing that he would reject God. Well, one possible answer to that objection is that although God knew AP would not believe in Him, He created him anyway to use AP's unbelief (and work on RUclips) to save many Muslims who would believe in God!
That's it 👍
That is a good one
God tests each and every person and hes been tested with this, if he still continues to do so, he will be punished in the hereafter. This world is like a prison for the believers and a paradise for disbelievers.
@@Abdullah-bo4oj your fake God created man to test him and finally to send him to the hell الجحیم, in your world and religion heaven is for Terrorists and pedophiles like Mohammed who married a 6 years old girl. my God is alive and test no one to prove that mankind is imperfect. Jesus loves every one even you my friend, don't seek after a God who punish but who love even if you're not good.
Not only that, but where there's life, there's hope. God knows our possible choices, and He leads the Way, but we pick our path. It's not over yet for AP.
Praying for him. Thank you for sharing this with us!
This was great. What AP doesn’t know is that everything that he’s gone through has brought him to this place for such a time as this. God has a way of working things out. I believe the same way he questioned Islam, he’ll question TRUE Christianity.
what is *TRUE christianity*? im sure many christians would awnser this differently.
"God has a way of working things out". Wait, does god play dice and choose which person not to permanently punish in hell?
TRUE Christianity? Following Christ and not the man behind the pulpit. And no, God does not play “dice”. Free will...
@@FGj-xj7rd the bible is both predestination and free will, so the holy word that*never* contradicts itself says it's your fault if your damned, because of free will, and it's thanks to the glory of God if your saved because he chose you before the foundations of the earth.
@@mylucidadventures6540 atleast you read bible
I clicked on this faster than I blink. 😂
Lol
may Allah guide you ameen
@@commentyes9486 u dont tell allah who to guide, he guides whom he wills.
@@juniorrr9199 are you dumb? your interpretation of Allah guides whom He wills is different from imams. I am allowed to say May Allah guide you every muslim knows this
If someone doesn’t believe in free will, they can’t get mad at me for punching them in the face. I didn’t freely choose to punch them because I don’t have free will...
That's not true, they don't have the free will to not get mad, and punch you right back. I actually don't believe in free will, I think our brain follows physical processes, and if you rewound time, we'd make the exact same decisions (ignoring something weird like quantum physics). That does not mean I'm not for filtering out people who behave with random punching.
That’s an interesting perspective! I appreciate you sharing it. I also think if we rewound time, everything would be the same, but due to God’s providence.
@@sophiey2109 Fair enough. Thanks for not punching me in the face.
Casey So you just described a robot. Are you a robot?
😆
Jon,
As a person who has become exposed to the basics of Christianity through Christian apologetics, simply because I follow a lot of the prominent anti-Islam channels, I would say I agree with the assessment that Christianity and atheism are both benign beliefs, whereas Islam is unique in its commands for violence.
@Ulimi Ulabi Secularism came out of Christianity.. So yes it makes sense they have coexisted.
..what? Christianity has a violent history as well. Classic "my cult better than yours hurr durr".
I agree with the main point of the OP and i appreciate the sentiments but there is more danger in secular or rather atheist beliefs in naturalism or materialism since there is no other compatible belief system they can operate under with the claim "I can only believe what is empirically verifiable" and these are the only notions of reality that match this description. This is the very reason why such dictators as Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong have reason to resort to communism which is simply state enforced atheism and control of resources for the collective "good". Also There have been a vast many heinous things done because of this belief in evolution from school shootings to mass murders of the 6 million Jews during the holocaust. I have to staunchly disagree that atheism is on equal footing morally with belief or trust in Jesus. Just wanted to clarify this a bit for those that are not well read on these subjects. BTW we all fall short so we all need a savior no matter how good we pretend to be. Thank God he sent his Christ to save us from ourselves.
@Shahid Imran Hussain easily. God is all powerful and can send himself if he so desires. Is this not something you agree with? If God is an all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being with a will and intellect vastly above that of our own then it stands to reason this is completely plausible if he exists.
@Shahid Imran Hussain Sir are you a Muslim? Also yes it makes complete sense that if God is all powerful then he can easily manifest himself in flash or any other form he desires and can still be consistently omnipresent. He pervades the creation and is above and beyond it. In order for it to exist he has to will for it to exist. Does that work better for you?
@apostateprophet I have a very important question for you. And I hope this helps give you insight.
If God only creates the cats that he knows will accept him, do they really have a choice? Or have they been predetermined to say yes and accept him by the fact that there is no existing cats that could have, or did, reject him?
My point is that I think by only creating cats that would not go to hell, God would be removing the choice/free will. There would be only the illusion of free will. Therefore, though he loves all his cats equally, he would create his cats with complete individuality and independence, even those he knows will someday grow up to reject him. God has given us all the tools we need to find our way to him, he has provided the sufficient sacrifice on the cross. The work to redeem us all has already been provided, therefore He has no moral burden for those who choose not to accept.
Actually God did not make men to die but he did give them the choice to die if they want to and they created the method themselves through a new nature born out of sin NOT made by God.
ap would be such a treasure to the body of Christ
hes so close to being a powerhouse.
Perfect 👌🏼
God saved him from islam. He will find God in his own time. The man is full of love. Seek and ye shall find. The greater the sinner the louder Gods angels rejoice in his salvation.
God didnt do a thing, he saved himself by having a critical mind and being a rational person..
NPanic having a critical mind and being rational won’t lead you to Christianity believe me
@@km0262 of course it wont thats why he is an atheist... As anyone is who can think freely and hasnt been indoctrinated from early childhood.
Qui Creva Sp Having a critical rational mind has led people to many different religions. What I find or what I come across a lot is that Christians tend to use this emotional or subjective argument of Jesus speaking to them and then say that Christianity is right because of this. So no I’m not wrong.
Qui Creva Sp Christianity is not rational at all in my opinion
This is a really great video I think we can all take away at least one thing, which is even if you don't believe the same thing as someone you can sit down and have a civilized conversation with them.
War For Light - yes this seems to becoming rare these days. Especially with the leftists!
But yet people like AP and you would not want that with Muslims and would rather dehumanize them for there beliefs...
His rebuttal to Jon's berometer analogy seemed to he just begging the question that God creates us in such a way that we only have 1 choice.
That analogy of the Barometer assumes the barometer doesn't have absolute power to change the rain.
@@deluxeassortment You missed the point of the analogy which is that knowledge =/= causation.
If God created free creatures with full knowledge of what they would freely do, it doesn't mean that He caused their free choice.
@@danielcartwright8868 No, you missed the point of my comment which was that God supposedly had full control over the universe he allegedly created so that he could have made it so man had free will and didn't need to end up being condemned to eternal torment for something God created him to do.
@@deluxeassortment Unless you're referring to Calvinism (which represents a small portion of Christians), we believe that God did create man free, but that people go to hell because they freely reject Him. In fact, we believe that God repeatedly extends mercy to human beings, but that many continue to freely reject His appeals. Where are you getring this idea that God somehow created people to go to hell, or that a free person could never end up in hell?
I noticed this pattern where AP is talking about "believing in God" where WDYM talks about "believing God does exist". See that these are two different things? Believe is a complex term, and confuses the conversation in my opinion. AP, when you say you don't believe in God, do you mean that you believe he does not exist, or do you mean that you don't cling to the truths that this existence entails, like obedience, revelation, and - in your case especially - accountability?
I remember Frank Turek asking this question: "if God exists as revealed in the Bible, would you become a Christian?"
Ravi Zacharias mentions quite sharply: only in a universe where free choice exists, there can exist love. It's similar to the question of evil: evil exists only as the lack of good, so does condemnation only exist as a lack of justification.
Thanks for sharing AP! I really enjoy following your journey. Blessings!
Let's get it.
Great stuff... BUT WHY SO SHORT!? 😭
it's just a premier, a taste of what's to come.
I love Apostate Prophet, I pray that one day after spending a bit more time with you guys he starts looking into Christianity. God be with you both.
Or a religion that is consistent and has met its burden of truth.
This is so messed up, every christian in the comment section is trying to convert him how absolutely disgusting? That doesnt make you any different than his ex-religion.
Oh shoot! I've been waiting for this moment... YES!!!!
Sound has too much echo. Need to deaden the sound created by the room. Otherwise great.
The cheap way? Just need to use 2 minijack clip microphones.. record two sound tracks .. then sync them.. then cut them.. this video reminds me of this truism:
"You can watch bad video but you cannot watch bad sound"
EXCELLENT! Thank you & Danke schön, Jon & Ridvan! 🌻😊 Shame i missed the beginning 😮 but watching it now! God Bless you all 💖🙌🏼👩🏼🙏🏼🌷
Great talk, guys. It's great to see so many outspoken RUclipsrs networking. Prayers galore for both of you.
Waste of 30 mins
Lol 😂
Nice move switching your catch phases at the end there.
Love it👍
As usual I always enjoy your videos. It was wonderful to hear A Christian and a atheist discuss the existence of God in a nonconfrontational way. I’m a Christian and I have already been praying for the apostate prophet. I’m also praying for you and your family
I agree with almost everything Apostate Prophet said. Whether Christianity is a net positive in the world, I don't know. That would include a lot of factors. Islam clearly is not a net positive. There is no good evidence to believe that either are true so that is something of a drawback when considering one or the other and really, religious belief in general. No one can _decide_ to believe. They either have been convince, or they haven't.
Well said. To me, Atheism is the solution to Islam. Not Christianity or and other "better" religion
Heather Watson why would you say Christianity is a net positive in the world or consider it to be so and Islam is not?
@@km0262 What any religion needs to have is a maximum amount of humanistic ideals. So a religion would have to allow complete free speech, freedom of adult, consensual sexual freedom, freedom to leave the faith, freedom for women, and instruction information for children concerning the religion without using fear tactics to demand obedience. In the year 2019 Christianity is better at that providing those things than is Islam. Neither is without failings. Both religions do have positives perhaps in equal number.
The interviewer did this well. Truly this was a Ridvan Ayedemir promo 👍.
I hope Ridvan turns to Christ and follows Him.
@Brent Knoerl you don't care if Ridvan spends forever in Hell.
@Brent Knoerl
He's whole problem with the idea of God is the idea of hell.
Because of which he says he doesn't "believe" in God. He really means trust not believe.
Jesus is trustworthy if there is anyone you can trust with your life, it is Jesus.
Only in Jesus, he can be reconciled to The Father and be Saved.
Really nice to see two opposing sides be so respectful. Pretty rare nowadays
Wow! My goodness! This is really interesting to see, to hear & understand...many key points and reasons between John & AP.
So, IF AP were the creator, people would automatically believe, animals would live in harmony, and law enforcement would be unnecessary? Is that his basic gist? I think the millenia of believers show that millions of people have followed the Living God, so God's plan seems to be working, while still allowing us free will. I'm so fond of AP, I'm going to pray that he surrenders his frail human opinion, and allow God to define WHO He is.
Acts 17:30 declares, "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, ..." People now have the Gospel, as fully as we'll ever have it on earth, so if millions of people have been brought to repentance through its message, what makes any man feel so special that God is incapable of producing something that will work for everyone? We're individuals, not produced by some divine cookie cutter. Our salvation experiences might be vastly different, but our Savior/Creator is the same.
@Prince of the Spirit You can't come unless the Father draws you [John 6:44].
When I was atheist, God made no sense to me either, and I sure didn't want him poking around in my life. I loved my sin; I wallowed in it. The Spirit of God turned me right side up, That hasn't happened for you yet, maybe never will.
@Muslim Why do you believe Allah when the Quran exposes him to be an imbecile? Have you never read a Quran? It's intellectual squalor from cover to cover, and offers nothing to you slaves other than hell.
Oh, and I only read what was visible in that little bell alert, but you need to make a video, because I'd break out in hives reading your pamphlet length screed.
@Muslim I should study Arabic because Allah was too stupid to know all languages? Why have you settled for such mindless claptrap? You have NO idea the number of Arabic speakers who are criticizing Islam, so you seem to comment from a platform of ignorance. Is it al Ahzab 36 that keeps you tarred and feathered in Allah's sticky pit of lunacy?
At this point, noodle, I have 12 Quran translations. Eight by Arabic speakers, four by Orientalists. Are you trying to tell me that faithful Muslims have conspired with infidels to make Allah sound so pig-ignorant and depraved? Is that what you wish to share in this public venue?
Tell me what al Kahf 86 & 87 teach us in Arabic? Can you upgrade that bit of stupidity? And remember your totem's lofty claims about his najis book. I think I know Islam better than you. I know I'd boil my own head before placing my brain on Allah's altar of sacrifice, or tossing my intelligence and morals into the foul Arab's sewer. If he was a "messenger", I'm Michael the Archangel.
@Muslim No, Muslim, not you. I was sloppy not to identify Prince of the Spirit. Your comments are short enough to be manageable! I thank you for that. _curtsies sweetly_
Excellent interview, God bless the both of you.
1. How would there be a valid moral law w/o a moral law giver?
2. What is the Apostate prophet’s believe as point of origin for hIs moral law?
3. Does he believe he is holy and would earn heaven by hIs own merrit if heaven would exist.
4. The door to hel is locked from the inside.
5. Why not Ask God for help even when you doubt his Existence?
6. If God exists, he is the origin of our moral law and Justice is part of the love and freedom we are given. Justice means we could go to hel and terrible things could happen to us, even through our own doing and wicked nature.
I like the both of you a lot for you both want to stand for an honoust search for truth and for what is good.
Yeah I noticed he kept on using the word Good, Moral, Unjust and all that.
I feel like this is filmed in the *boom boom room*
🤔
Maybe ;)
I love you both! I hope Ridvan finds Christ some day!
Amen.
Hope, no)
@@signorasforza354 Now you're going to explain yourslf: why not? What is bad and wrong about becoming a christian? Now, focus: i DON'T care how you look at RELIGEONS, i'm not talking about your view nor do i care about it (another one of thousands same people's view of 21st century), and i'm no talking about RELIGEONS: i am talking about christian God and being christian.
@@sgorgardr227 Beacuse its the stupid fairytail.
@@signorasforza354 I said i don't care what you think about it. WHY objectievly it is fairy tale? What is tale about it, Jesus is historical figure, what is tale, can you prove it is a myth? You could have said that "i personaly don't believe in your myth", INSTEAD you put it as objective knowledge - prove it's a myth, or a lie, whatever.
You can have your personal view on anything, but since you speak out - religeons, myths, tales, fairy-tales, beliefs are NOT same thing and NOT same value.
Why it is stupid? What is stupid about the christianity? Loving your neighbor is stupid? Why loving you and respecting you as human being is not stupid? If it's not stupid - why when Bible says that it becomes stupid?
I repeat again: what is bad and wrong about becoming a christian? All you atheist can only moan. Raise level of discussion, this is not how debate or seeking of truth is settled. Means on 50% you are living in your box AND you cna be MISTAKEN with such approach asyou don't investigate that you DON'T LIKE to chose, i.e. chosing the truth.
So happy to have found this video. I have been praying for AP since I discovered his channel and was curious as to why he became an atheist. Now I, along with thousands of others, will be able to pray more effectively, thank you.
Also praying for you, your family and ministry, jon.
This video should be compulsory viewing for all muslim apologists before they enter a debate with a Christian so that they can learn how to disagree respectfully.
Last year I subscribed to AP you tube videos and the info. And teachings on Islam are an eye opener.
No science or philosophy or compelling story led me to become an atheist. It was a slow process, caused by silence. I spent 38 years praying, doing devotions, taking theology classes, reading the Bible, trying to force myself to believe, always a bit of involuntary guilt in my mind. I asked God constantly to make himself known to me, and to wipe away the doubt and the guilt that came from it.
I could only take it for so long before I finally just decided God either wasn't out there or had no interest in me. Either way, I jumped off the fence.
So when you're out there blasting atheists for whatever preconceptions or fallacies or lack of evidence you perceive them to have, remember that some of then might have a more personal story, and it might be better for you to listen than to talk.
I sympathize with you Alkyl. I think the reason you receive those reactions is because the majority of atheists we confront are those found here on the internet and youtube threads. I think these forums tend to attract a certain type of atheist. Usually the militant ones, many of which would say that they wouldn't follow God even if He revealed himself to them.
It then becomes a normal reaction for theists to expect similar behavior and stories from you. Its wrong and should be checked but its also quite natural. I'd like to consider myself a bit more intellectually honest than the average Christian or theist but over the past year I have chosen to engage atheists for a few reasons. First, to find out why they are what they are. What makes them tick? Why is it that I can look at the same thing they do and read it completely different. Second, to test my own arguments and either strengthen them, mediate them, or remove them all together. And finally to build mutual respect between these opposing factions and come to a common understanding that atheists can hold to their beliefs rationally as can I. I have hoped to find the diamond in the rough conversation. A conversation with an atheist that is open minded, intellectually honest, humble, pleasant to talk with. Out of the hundred people, give or take, that I have talked with, I have yet to find this "diamond in the rough". Only a few have come close and those were pleasant and enjoyable conversations.
Even so, since so many do not even come close to being a diamond in the rough I have recognized myself becoming more cynical towards atheists in general. I become frustrated with people much quicker and I have lost some of my faith in humanity. But to the point of this conversation and what you wrote, I find myself applying more stereotypes to atheists then I should. Its hard not to when so many of them, proportionally, have been sub par in my opinion.
Thank you for reminding me that not all atheists deserve these stereotypes.
I hear you.i was never really religious but believed in a God of some sort because of hearing the name God. Never went to church but when a friend asked me was I saved and took me to church it basically did it for me. Hear in different pastors saying almost contradictory messages often raised questions.
@@blusheep2 I think it's the same on both sides. I've only met a few Christian's that dont judge or refuse to speak to you anymore. I've encountered some Christians that say disagreements about christianity from believer or non believer makes them want to fight. Remember many atheist have to stay in the closet. So it's not like many Christian's are understandind of different beliefs.
@@blusheep2 I have a feeling a great many of those militant atheists have a similar story. Almost every atheist I know either grew up in a religious home and felt emotionally abused or left a faith for similar reasons to me.
RUclips isn't exactly the best place for genuine conversation, because comments can seem so cold and empty.
About the refusal to follow God even if he revealed himself-- I think people who have immersed themselves in atheism have come to the conclusion that if God revealed himself, one couldn't be sure that he is who he says he is or if the religious experience is just a halucination. These are hard atheists, and there's really no point in engaging with them.
Might I suggest starting with asking their story, about why they are an atheist? And maybe refrain from trying to tell them anything (they've probably heard it all before, or they're just going to go look up a response to your claims). Practice street epistemology. I personally try to come up with my own responses to people's claims, and give them a chance to put me in my place. I also like to ask people about what it is that assures them God is real, what religious or spiritual experiences they've had. It will take a long process of examining each claim from both sides before I begin to change my position. 38 years is a long time to develop a worldview, after all.
Can I ask, how would you define this "diamond in the rough"? What does that mean to you exactly?
@@bobyoung3857 Could you name some of those contradictory messages? Is it contradictory in itself? Or contradictory between preachers, or churches?
I really enjoyed this discussion! Keep it going y'all
AP is a fun guy to listen to. Sorry that he isn't yet a Christian, but I can understand his atheism from his background.
Goliath132 Same in some ways he reminds me of C. S. Lewis.
@@justchilling704 Yeah, hopefully he will study quite a bit of the moral arguments in favor of the God of the Bible/Christianity, since it seems he is hung up on the idea of free will and the morality of eternal punishment. I focus more on the interaction of science and Christianity and Christianity and the public square, but I know of some amazing people better equipped than I to answer AP's questions. Not that Jon didn't do a great job, but it seems AP might require a much more academic answer.
For what it's worth. When I de-converted from Christianity I did study the arguments from the best sources, in earnest. The moral argument, biblical inerrancy, the problem of suffering, the teleological argument, historicity, the issue of hell, contradictions, etc. Non convinced me to return. Not because I refused to accept them, but I found them unconvincing, weak, and creating more questions than answers.
Dear Brother, I am also an ex Muslim from India.. I am watching your videos for the past one year..
Also I am taking most of the notes from you.. I would like to translate the conversation of this video in my language.. for knowledge purpose so please give permission to do this Brother..
Thank you
The freewill question reminds me of the book of Job. Job questioned God's motives and God thoroughly explains to Job that he does not have the mental capacity to understand God's purpose for the things He does.
I liked the ending! LoL, you should ask him the Frank Turek question, "if christianity were true, would you believe" but in regards to the existence of God. Keep up the good work to both of yall, WDYMeme & AP 😉
He mentions how even in our belief in christ we are flawed, but as a Christian I would say to him to read Roman's chapter 6, that our belief in Christ causes us to be new creatures, not bound by sin, dead and crucified with christ, we are not flawed beings anymore because of grace in christ. Christianity is about transformation, not just about trying to get to heaven, it is about restoration to what you where intended to be, and eternal life is found in God. Thanks for the discussion and peace.
trinity is roman paganism. foreign to Jesus
For what it's worth. I de-converted from Christianity and I underwent a transformation. I'm a better person now than when I was religious. I understand morality now after reading Sam Harris. I understand what morality is, how it works, and why it's important. I could never figure that out when I was a Christian. It's like you can interpret the Bible to justify anything. Also of much relief, I understand how nature works, my place in it, and how precious moments are in this short temporal life span. I'm filled with awe and curiosity every day. I am changed. No god required. I don't mean this as an attack on your beliefs. Just a personal anecdote
@@Aaron-os8qi 'he created you from a liquid emitted then man grows and becomes arrogant ' quran
Excellent commentary in conversation was very enlightening and entertaining!
Hello Apostate Prophet and Whaddo You Meme?? (german is under the english version, I am a German excuse me for my English^^)
I want to answer you in English and in German because I think I have an another important point of your problem to your question with god. The question was "When God createt a human and God knows that the human makes the wrong decision and the human goes to hell, why should God create this human (what the meaning of this) ?"
When I have an good answer then i wrote again, but now I want to say that you can not forget the historical facts about Jesus and his resurrection.
The gospel, extra-biblical sources, historians of that time (Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, etc.) and some scholars today agree that Jesus Christ was crucified. Moreover, the resurrection is the best possible explanation of the whole. If that really happened, with the crucifixion and the resurrection, then Jesus is the one who he cklaimed to be, the Almighty God who created the heavens and the earth.
I just wanted to give you this train of thought. Although this train of thought does not answer your question exactly, but in terms of what has happened in the world about 2000 years ago, you must necessarily consider, because this may answer your question something.
If you believe in the 2000 years ago that Jesus was crucified and resurrected on the third day and that Jesus is God, then you can not shy away from this fact, that God showed himself then and that he gave us humans a sense of life.
Nevertheless, I find your question very interesting and difficult to answer, but I did not want to leave that fact out of context.
Brotherly Greetings, Rick from Germany :D
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Hallo Abtrünniger Prophet und Was machst du?
Ich möchte dir auf Englisch und Deutsch antworten, weil ich denke, dass ich einen weiteren wichtigen Punkt zu deiner Frage mit Gott. Die Frage war: "Wenn Gott einen Menschen erschafft und Gott weiß, dass der Mensch die falsche Entscheidung trifft und der Mensch zur Hölle fährt, warum sollte Gott diesen Menschen erschaffen (welcher Sinn steckt dahinter)?"
Wenn ich eine gute und genaue Antwort habe die das genau beantwortet dann schreibe ich dir noch einmal, aber jetzt möchte ich sagen, dass du die historischen Fakten über Jesus und seine Auferstehung nicht vergessen darfst.
Das Evangelium, außerbiblische Quellen, damalige Historiker (Flavius Josephus, Tacitus usw.) und einige Wissenschaftler stimmen heute darin überein, dass Jesus Christus gekreuzigt wurde. Darüber hinaus ist die Auferstehung die bestmögliche Erklärung für das Gesamte. Wenn die Kreuzigung und die Auferstehung wirklich passiert ist bzw. wahr ist, dann ist Jesus der für den er sich selber gehalten hat, Jesus ist dann der allmächtige Gott, der Himmel und Erde erschaffen hat.
Ich wollte dir nur diesen Gedankengang geben. Obwohl dieser Gedankengang deine Frage nicht genau beantwortet, sondern in Bezug auf das, was in der Welt vor etwa 2000 Jahren passiert ist, muss man dennoch ganz klar berücksichtigen.
Wenn man das vor ca. 2000 Jahren glaubt, dass Jesus gekreuzigt wurde und am dritten Tage auferstanden ist, dann bekommt der Mensch wieder einen Sinn des Lebens.
Nichtsdestotrotz, ich finde deine Frage bzw. Gedankengang sehr interessant, trotzdem möchte ich diese Tatsachen nicht aus dem Zusammenhang heraushalten.
Brüderliche Grüße, Rick aus Deutschland :D
Good... God bless you both
I’ve been praying for AP & his family since I first saw him on RUclips in early 2020 during Covid lockdown 🙏🏻🙏🏻💙
AP is not a mainstream atheist.
He knows whats the real problem to fight & focus on.
Respect for him, also pray for him that the True God Yashua Hamasiakh will show him His way ❤️🙏
At around 14 minutes there's the conversation about creating a cat or not creating a cat, the objection is that the cat was created knowing it would decide to go to Hell. But this objection is doing three things: 1) Appealing to morality without grounding, 2) It insists upon determinism without actually allowing for free will, and 3) Ignores the effects of the evil cat upon others which might enable a better world than one without "that darned cat" (great movie btw 😉). As long as there exists an outcome better on the whole even with that darned cat than other possible worlds, then God is still Good in creating that darned cat. Also if that darned cat was created differently, then it would be a different cat in a different possible world and not the same darned cat.
I recommend looking up Alvin Plantinga's argument about transworld depravity.
Great conversation!
Sure some people will be born into situations where they are less likely to accept the saving Grace of God but to prevent such a thing to happen he would have to either prevent millions of parents from having babies each year, destroying their free will to have children, or force people who want to live their life on their terms to accept him. God does appear to people in Islamic and pagan nations, and he does reveal himself to those who dilligently seek him. Just look at AP if he has been seeking God with an open heart then just look at all the servants of God he has had the chance to speak with in his fight against Islam
"force people who want to live their life on their terms to accept him"
Well you have to start by showing that he exists so people can consider accepting him. That's where people are born into unfair situations. He could prevent such situations without preventing babies or forcing people to accept him. Just provide more than a book and parental teachings that are regional.
@@Kevorama0205 Our very ability to reason points us the knowledge of God, just think of all the philosophical arguments that can be made for the existence of God. The fine tuning argument, the moral argument, the design argument, etc.. And once you have a good reason to believe God exists or even the possibility of Gods existence then you can put all options on the table and see where to go from there. To me personally the historical evidence for the raising of Christ from the dead was greatly needed but even more so was the book 'Imagine Heaven' that goes through all these experiences were people died for a little while and were then resuscitated who claim to have seen Jesus. The key is to have an open heart which can be so difficult at times and a lot of us who openly ask dont really want to know the answer we just want our already held beliefs to hold true. I do hope you seek openly Kevin as the love and acceptance of your creator is the most fulfilling thing.
@Vinsanity997
"Our very ability to reason points us the knowledge of God, just think of all the philosophical arguments that can be made for the existence of God. The fine tuning argument, the moral argument, the design argument"
We are pretty bad at reasoning. And there's no reason to think a flawed ability to reason requires a God.
Fine tuning would only be relevant if we had any evidence that any of those quantities could be tuned differently, which we don't, or if there were not millions of other non-tuned scenarios that never observed themselves (anthropic principle).
The moral argument is either an argument from consequences, or asserts that morality is more than preference without justification. Either way it fails to show anything.
The design argument assumes the appearance of design requires design, but also asserts that sand and people are equally designed, despite sand not appearing designed. Regardless, there's no evidence of people being designed, no matter how much you think it "appears" so.
There is no historical evidence of the resurrection outside the Bible, and miracles need more justification that anonymous reports.
Obviously I could go into counter-arguments more, but just because an argument can be made doesn't make it a good argument.
"I do hope you seek openly Kevin as the love and acceptance of your creator is the most fulfilling thing."
I suppose I'll let the entity that supposedly knows I exist and already loves me make the first move, then. I surely cannot seek God better than he can seek me. So I'll place my faith in him to do so if he does exist and it's in his plan. Should I not have that hypothetical faith?
Vinsanity997
I just read Kevin’s points and it made me head hurt. Sad.
@@Kevorama0205 I must disagree with your reasons/ objections to the philosophical arguments provided as I dont think you're neccessarily giving them a fair shake. The complex information of DNA is indeed more complicated than sand, morals do seem to be only mildly influenced by culture (Im going out on a limb to say that though) and without God as a creator and judge all the injustice in the world is completely inconsequential and without him as a standard for right and wrong such concepts become only opinions. Even the universe from nothing is proof enough that there must be an uncaused cause which shows itself to be intelligent in being able to form complex life. I do agree with you though that God must first seek someone before they accept or reject his offer of love and salvation. I just wonder if this humble moment could be one of the many steps God takes to reveal himself to you. Have a great day Kevin
I really feel for APs inability to reconcile the doctrine of hell with a loving God.
It is the ultimate “carrot and stick” motivator towards, at least, thought of God tho.
Jordan Peterson has spoken at length about the usefulness of developing an idea of something terrible to avoid and something potentially wonderful to aim for, to give oneself direction.
The fear of a child of mine, rejecting salvation and being damned, was the biggest reason I chose not to have kids.
I still don’t like the concept of hell but I know God is loving.
He’s proven that to me, by dying on the cross for my sins.
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
I trust God that this is the only way to ultimately deal with sin and balance justice and mercy.
God is the only one qualified enough to make the call.
I am not God.
Shameless Papist I don’t know what scriptural support you could offer to support your view, in light of John 3:18.
Unbelief is enough because we are born spiritually dead and sinful.
God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (Ezk 33:11)
I have no problem lamenting for the lost.
I just don’t ultimately hold God, but them, responsible.
It still tragic.
Sin sucks.
AP, my fav atheist, consider this: If God exists, then He necessarily is our superior. Also our intellectual superior, by a long way! If you accept that hypothesis, then any argument for atheism that starts with "Why would God..." fails. We cannot reject an intellectually superior being because of our inability to comprehend His reasons for doing things.
consider this: if god dosent exist then all his superior intellect isent there.
thus your statement is false because it only wants the questioner to stay silent basically like Islam don't question which is stupid in itself.
@@mylucidadventures6540 My objection to "Why would God..." arguments is that it assumes intellectual equality with an intellectually superior being. I'm not saying you can't ask hard questions. I'm a Christian because I followed the evidence. I'm just saying that "Why would God..." questioners should ask that question with the appropriate humility, considering they are investigating a being that, if He exists, cannot be fully comprehended by finite human minds.
GuyWithDaKrazyHare what are u even talking about?🤦♂️. Another atheist not making any sense.....
@@ajler then he did a crap job creating are mind? And what evidence.
@@shreeded easy, if we are to assume the Christian God is real and morally superior to us then we can't ask questions and that's bull I will not accept that because there is no evidence for your God. When I ask Christians why would god... It's not because I believe he exists and I just don't understand him, it's to show the flaw in the reasoning of assuming he exists even when the bible condones so many evil things.
Jon, Very nice conversation, very well done!
Always liked AP, I hope you two talk again.
Ah, Religious Nihlism! The good King Solomon felt this very strongly once. Quite a great read.
TheCynicogue I’ll have to check it out.
Yup it is a good read and now I've found a renewed heart in Christ Jesus. "The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and will condemn them. For she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, greater than Solomon is here."
@@justchilling704 Please do and have a nice day
AP looks so different here. Been working out? Lol anyway thanks for this amazing video
May AP find the truth in Jesus Christ,,,,peace.
jesus a man
@Lil Hammad,,,Yes my friend,,God incarnate,,,Jesus is Lord….
@@promethiousb1489 bible ' god is not a man. he who dies on a cross is cursed'. is bible wrong
@Lil hammad,,i pray that you find Jesus…peace.
@@promethiousb1489 he is a prophet of god. a man. to return at endgames....trinity foreign to Jesus
The paradox he brings up shouldn’t kill his belief in God altogether. It should only cause him to doubt a god/God with specific attributes that contradict(seemingly)
I'll give a short answer from my Calvinist perspective. Free Will is not autonomous and Mankind is not a morally neutral creature. Since the fall, man is devoid righteousness, which we call sin. God does not force this kind of will upon us, it is the reality without his covering of righteousness. God is not obligated to make men righteous, but he does so out of his mercy. The wicked don't want God's righteousness, so the "unfairness" to them would be God arresting their will and changing them, which he does with Christians. When it comes to Hell, it is God's demonstration of his Justice and Wrath upon sin. The sinful man doesn't complain about wanting to be conformed, he wants the reality of his choice without the interaction of God. In short, *God doesn't have to make men sinners, he has to make them righteous*
For the cat question (13:30) in the vid basically during your life you meet different people and these different people have ROLES they play in a persons life so let's say "the cat's" whole lifes purpose is to strengthen someone else's faith. Like in the romans 9:17 "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." In this passage the scriptures says to pharaoh (a verry bad man in the bible)
Humans tend to look at choices only as what actually happens and not the entire range of what is possible may happen. AP shrinks it down to a false dichotomy of one single choice and God knows the outcome of that single choice.
I look at choices as a full spectrum of possible outcomes, and God's foreknowledge is not limited to what actually happens, but all of the possibilities of what could happen based on our freewill. Thereby, God works to guide us to the right choices.
We tend to think of our choices as a bent line of choices we've made that guide our path, but God sees a tree of possible futures based on the outcomes of all of our possible choices. To me, that better defines omniscience rather than only what will actually happen (the choices that we actually make as opposed to the choices we may make).
By that logic it would mean that God is not omniscient. If you believe that because I think some Christians dont hold to that. God knows everything before it happens according to some. Assuming that he only knows what the possible outcomes are undermines God's abilities I think most Christians would say. If the original teaching were God can see possible outcomes but doesnt know for sure, I think that would be a better argument and easier to defend.
@@bobyoung3857 knowing all possibilities still means God knows everything before it happens..... Your logic is lost on me.
@@jabeavers I think you misunderstand what a false dichotomy is or how it works. AP never said that it's only limited choice. He knows possibuliturs may be endless. He saying that if God knows what choices you make before you make them as well as the possibilities. If he doesn't do anything to give you the best choice only than you have no choice. If God's will be done you cant do anything about it. If I give you a. Choice to walk out the door but tie you down. You have the will to walk out but I'm restricting you.
@@jabeavers God working to guide us to right choices is asinine. All he has to do is create a world where atheism doesn't exist. Or show himself .
I don't get it, Show himself like the Evidence for the Resurrection.
And the thing with the Divine hiddeness objection is that it's just basically the same thing as the religious experience argument and not popularised for the same reason.
Finally got around to viewing this and can say after the first few minute that it was worth the wait.
I think Apostate Prophet's argument can be summed up as this:
1. If someone willingly does something knowing it will have a certain consequence, they are responsible for that consequence.
2. If God as described by Christians and Muslims exists, he willingly creates certain people knowing that they will, as a consequence, go to hell.
3. Therefore if God as described by Christians and Muslims exists, he is responsible for people going to hell. (by 1 and 2)
4. Someone who is responsible for people going to hell is not morally good.
5. If God as described by Christians and Muslims exists, he is morally good.
6. Therefore God as described by Christians and Muslims does not exist (by 3, 4, and 5)
Nicely summed up. My brother used to constantly try to convert me back to Christianity but couldn't convince me the God of the bible was moral based of the doctrine.
It’s called free will. You are responsible for your actions.
AP has even gone more handsome seeing a say out. Keep going!
AP will come around. It’ll probably require a radically different approach.
22:00 the example of someone born in Saudi Arabia who won’t believe the Gospel. Confirmed, AP needs to discover Molinism and Transworld Damnation concept.
Please do you have any sources on that?
I personally think & feel that Love of Christianity will eventually win AP... even though he says the "whole hell thing" is the reason why he's still an atheist.
Wonderful discussion.
God bless you!!!
Ranfer which one? Zeus? Hadis? Aphrodite? Vishnu?
@@pastaapostle9388 jibril & Allah
Apostate Prophet I really respect how you handle these conversations. Something to think about: In order for God to create a being made in His image that had free will, would He have to create one that even He would not know what they were going to do until they existed? I know people argue that God is all powerful and all knowing etc. and He is. However, He also created a covenant that He cannot break. Praying for you!
Hi jon
Atheist here.
Just wanted to say even tho i disagree with you and found disingenuous sometimes, i think you're a cool dude that's why I subbed
Good interview. He talks a lot about morals. And keeps on stealing from God to argue against Him though! Where does everything come from then? Atheists want to answer that by stealing from God. Good book to get is Frank Turek’s “stealing from God”
That is exactly what I was thinking.
Islam says don't question anything.
Christianity says question everything.
Love christian brother and sister!
Such a great collab! I loved it!
I could see the wheels turning in your head when he was describing some of the issues he had with Islam. "My religion isn't like that."
Lmao tru
Leaves old religion with bad/no evidence, joins new religion with bad/no evidence, and the cycle continues.
@apostateprophet It is not that God commands us to do something and does not supply us to do that. He wants us to realize that without Him we cannot do anything, we cannot reach the purpose of our life by our own strenght- and it forces us to draw near to Him, to call upon His name- because He wants to be our supply, to fulfill the meaning and purpose for which He created us-
In the cat analogy, he described a cat without freewill. The cat he described was fatalistically determined. If God truly gave us freewill, then he would only know the consequences of our choices. God wouldn't be the cause of our choices. So either God gave us freewill or not, it can't be both.
Did the angels have free will? I often hear it said God made men so he would have a being with free will that could choose to worship him, and the angels were made to worship him.
So, if the angels didn't have free will, then how did they manage to go to war in heaven? Maybe it's not so black and white.
Soft determinism: Everything that's ever happened to you, every choice, every consequence, every choice your parents ever made, and their parents, and their parents, combined with the neurotransmitter levels and physical pathways...
... It all culminated in to affecting how you would make your next choice.
If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, as described by the Bible, surely he could be powerful and knowledgeable enough to have freewill and not have to risk annihilation of our souls .
@@deluxeassortment Or maybe the cost of freewill and "goodness" itself is the potential for evil.
@@deluxeassortment Angels have free will or Satan could not have rebelled. God made his creations to have free will.
@@m_d1905 But if he can create angels with free will, and not impose a sin-redemption infrastructure on them, why did he create man the way he did?
@xxxPassiexxx
Well said :)
He seems like a super smart and chill dude. Hope he comes to a belief in Christ one day.
Quick Attack Films or better. Not adhere to a religion
J'adore Alles How would that be better for him. If he comes to a belief in Christ and Christianity is false, he’s still gained a lot. If he becomes a Christian and Christianity is true, he’s gained all that and eternal life with the creator of the universe.
Quick Attack Films let’s assume it’s false. What specifically does he gain? Besides concrete knowledge that Christianity is false?
J'adore Alles A fellowship of fellow believers. The belief in objective human value. The belief in objective morality. The fulfillment of the fundamental human desire for purpose. Hope for the future. A coherent worldview. Depending on how far one goes into theology, I’d say a greater grasp on philosophy and possibly science (Christianity has caused me to have a greater interest in science). And a general more positive outlook on life.
And if it’s true, you get all that and you get to live eternally in a world without sadness and pain.
@@quickattackfilms7923 there is still sadness and pain. People from other can feel the same sense of purpose. Even atheists, no religion needed.
Man... I just see this clip. Two Champs in here.
The claim that God knows the future is what confuses people like Apostate Prophet. It confuses Christians, too. But the paradox only exists because people have unintentionally restricted God. It isn't that God knows "the" future. God knows "every possible" future, and every branch off every human choice, and He knows how He will respond to whatever future transpires. It is only possible because God is infinite, but humans have a hard time grasping what infinity really means. That is how God can give humans free will and still be sovereign over creation.
People mistakenly think that history had to unfold exactly as it did. They are wrong. When God gave people a choice, He gave them a real choice. Bad choices by humans can't derail God's plans because God is still steering the bus of history. If man's poor decisions -- like Israel refusing to enter the Promised Land -- throw up a roadblock to the straight path, then God takes a detour. In the case of Israel in the wilderness, that detour was forty years. When Israel rejected her Messiah, the detour has been much longer -- almost 2000 years and still going. But God hasn't given up on His plans for Israel. They could have had the Millennial Kingdom way back then if they had chosen well.
If God simply knows every choice people will make in advance, and knows how He will respond in advance, then not only do humans not have free choice, but neither does God. He's only responding to His script as it interacts with our script.
Enon Knives I like your comment, very thought provoking and point out some misconceptions we have about God.
Maaaan these people were really respectfull towards each other,like for real,and that’s something thing I usually don’t see in discussions of this sort and subject in videos and comments.Bravo
Great interview it seems he's on the brink of believing in Jesus
If I may ask, where'd you get that impression? The fact that he saw Christianity as less scary than Islam, is not really an endorsement of Christianity.
Out all religions, he does speak more highly of Christianity and he has said he wants to believe he just needs more evidence and that's a start.
@@rodneygardner7421 Fair enough. I'm not sure I would speak more highly of Christianity, but I would definitely speak more highly of Christians, political issues in the US notwithstanding.
I saw the thumbnail and was like AP is that you
Apostate Prophet falls into the same trap that most atheists do and that is putting God into this human sized box. Assuming that God's perception of reality is as limited as ours.
See we're 3 dimensional creatures (4 d at most) and we exist in a 10 dimensional universe. So when we're talking about a 10th dimensional creature (God, who is either a creature of the 10th dimension, or is indeed the 10th dimension itself) we limit his ability to experience reality based on our own limitations.
God gets to experience a universe in which every one of his human creations is "saved" ... has chosen to be with him. Whereas these human creatures get to experience an infinite number of outcomes. EXCEPT that our individual consciousness only experiences one path through this mess.
So the point isn't to decide whether you get to be with God or not, because at least one version of you (and likely millions) will. But you get to decide whether the single point of consciousness you're experiencing gets to ride the path to heaven or hell.
The point is all about a story writer.
Because that story is the mirror of existence even of the writer.
No resistance no light and no light no darkness of shadow hence no resistance.
Best regards brothers.