Helen Pluckrose on when EDI goes too far
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- Опубликовано: 20 июн 2024
- Helen Pluckrose joins Inaya Folarin Iman to discuss the harmful tenets of Critical Race Theory, postmodern thought, and DEI training.
The Evolution of Postmodern Thought | Helen Pluckrose - • The Evolution of Postm...
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They also delve into the Grievance Studies Affair project with Peter Boghossian and James Lindsay, as well as her book, 'Cynical Theories,' which she also co-authored with James Lindsay. Helen also shares her thoughts on the rise and reactive form of white identity politics as a backlash to the "woke" movements.
#criticalracetheory #postmodernism #socialjustice
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Not going to lie I came back into societies politic issues this year and I instantly thought this was a roundabout way to reignite hatred for minorities. Cause when I heard the crap the intersectionals preach I instantly was like " we need to shut these anti-white monsters down". White people today are full pushovers and kind. They basically never bothered most, yet were being told they are bad. So those of us who actually can get bad if they want came back out the shadows to shut this madness down. DEI reflects the racism in the black community in America. They believe all types of crazy conspiracies here. Sorry it hit u all in the UK we should've shut this down long ago.
But u young lady may have just given us some hope that we don't have to make the push back as hard as we had estimated. I'll let u do your work and see how it goes, best of luck. For being a honest person I respect u. Diversity hires are something we will not stand for it is bad for business.. and yes we are very big on free speech something the Democrats used to back. We started to see our own people white women mainly stat to become radicalized against their race. Like the Tennessee trans school shooter.
DEI is highly toxic and will be met with huge lawsuits very shortly here. I'd recommend stopping it in the UK cause it won't end well. Cause in the USA u need to have full free speech cause one day one type of speech can be accepted and the next day unpopular. Free speech protects society and the government from censoring opposition. It is what the USA needs to keep going cause this is how the nation was setup
If I hear "epistemology" in the first 3 minutes, I'm hooked! Also enjoying Quilette, and The Radical Centre on the immense difficult of retaining poise, position, and integrity in a "new space"- the one we used to think of as centrist liberal, now roundly scorned as insufficiently progressive or soft right.
Great to see Pluckrose. The silent partner to quite an awakening.
Identifying and better understanding the radical agendas being pushed for what they are (a modern day form of tribalism) is incredibly healing.
DEI: division, exclusion, intolerance
Authoritarians always think they will be the ones in charge. They should imagine a world where the person they least agree with has the power they’re trying to wield.
Well, they are often hyperbolic about that already being the case...
The revolutionists never envision that they are the disposable tools. The tyrants always use a group to do the initial violence, and when the next phase of the revolution begins, the tyrant unalives the group who perpetrated (on his orders) the original violence. They never stop to think that Hitler did it, Mao did it, etc. and that they'll be on the chopping block as soon as they've completed their mission. On the contrary, they think they'll be in the circle of power. It would be sad if they weren't so dangerous.
There are many things which should NOT be legally enforced but publicly shamed, how to speak the right way chief among those
Helen! Great to see your return. You are the voice of reason
Yes.
The social rubber band is stretched to maximum.... the snap back is going to sting like a mfer.
cant wait.
Well said. This is exactly what's coming.
I told everyone the so called victory of social justice movements was largely pyrrhic, and I was called everything but a child of God by detractors. The ‘insult’ I still mirthfully recall is being branded a black white supremacist. Fancy that! Now I know that black people can be white supremacists!
The word so shortened was in use a long time ago . It was a three word expression highlighted several times in Alexander Solzhenitsyn's trilogy The Gulag Archipelago. As in English these days ,it was not meant well.
Helen Pluckrose thank you for speaking out, your thoughts and perspective are keeping a light shining on liberalism, and helping the rest of us find our bearings. I too have had the feeling that the backlash against CSJ/Woke is attracting an illiberal element, some of whom are even willing to abandon free speech and propose their own authoritarian response.
It’s western version of Maoism - it’s completely being manufactured. Americans were unified by national identity, even in difficult times, but never desecrated like it’s being done now.
"It's a slow process, which we call Active Measures
The first stage being Demoralisation, it takes from
15-20 years to demoralise a nation.
The next is Destabilisation. What matters is essentials; economy, foreign relations, defence systems.
The next stage is Crisis . Followed by a violent change of economic structure & politics. Finally, There is a period of Normalisation . It will last indefinitely."
KGB defector Yuri bezmenov, 1984
What a fantastic episode. Great guest
Thank you for watching!
"The problem arises when you define yourself in opposition to something" - spot on! Loved this conversation, thank you so much!!
so happy to see Helen Pluckrose on your podcast !!!
That's part of the fragility of Robin DiAngelo's theories.
Lie to get through grad school or your professional program, exactly! Someone needed to say it out loud, as many of us have been secretly doing this. I finally recently found a therapist that obviously did this to graduate, but is obviously a true liberal (not a “woke” racist.) She’s inspired me to go to grad school and just grin and suffer through the DEI racist courses while I learn what I need to learn to be better than that. I’ve started taking classes towards professional development and have had to just lie my way through a couple of sections. Weirdly, I’m finding that things aren’t as bad as they used to be in the 90s when I was in grad school. I think academia in California finally reached peak ridiculousness recently and are now backing off. I’ve even noticed a bunch of students refusing to go along with certain pronoun type things, and nobody screamed at them!
It sucks that the system allows 1 - those who are too dumb to understand how destructive these ideas are, 2 - those who are hard core true believers and 3 - really good liars and excludes the people who honestly and forthrightly tell the actual truth. I understand the temptation to be one of the liars. In some ways, I am one but, the problem is that the really good liars can be some of the most persuasive people spewing the nonsense. It's easy enough to dismiss and idiot or an ideologue. It's not always easy to dismiss someone who has constructed something that sort of makes sense.
So good to see you and hear your voice again, Helen!❤
She’s fantastic. I’m so glad you two got together to share these insights. We need to turn the page.
I am really glad to see Helen back in action! I have to put some coffee on!
Coffee? I hope you mean tea? Glad to see Helen back
@@matiastoro1667No, I mean coffee :)
CRT obviates the need for any thought, word or act of racism as proof of their presumed verdict. All they need is their preferred race measuring less favorably than another. Regardless of the cause: they declare their favored race to be victims of the other.
Then they would use real government enforced discrimination in response to their presumed discrimination; altering laws, policies and practices to favor their preferred race.
All for the stated purpose of forcibly making the measurements between races identical.
The operative question is whether you support using government force to implement racial discrimination.
All the rest is academic.
My answer is no.
9:00 I talk about religion a lot, and some people have asked me how to deal with the fact they don't believe in their family's religion. One of my options is always, as Helen said: lie. If it's not safe, you lie. You lie, and you refuse to feel guilty about the fact you have been put in a position where you had to lie. And you do something for yourself to shake it off.
Yes! It’s the refusing to feel guilty part that’s important.
You can't refuse an emotion, the guilt will consume you. Getting people to lie, and to know they're lying, is one of the mechanisms of oppression used by socialist totalitarian states.
Liberalism, for me, is individual sovereignty, which is only possible with property rights, including self-ownership. Live and let live, strictly limited by property rights.
But you probably still vote for the left.
I think this is the most informative Helen Pluckrose interview I’ve heard. Thank you Inaya Folarin Iman, nice work.
Like Helen but I believe she's mistaken on her definition of Liberal and Conservative to a point. Burkean Conservatism, which is what I think many conservatives today lean towards is all about freedom of speech and the ability to say what you want without the fear of losing your job or being outcast. It just also believes that the traditions, institutions, and habits of the past are not to be simply cast out because you think your way is better when what we have been using for sometimes centuries is better. Many of this Conservatives wholly back the Constitution and at the same time freedom of speech for example.
The story of Chesterton's fence is a prime example of this.
I have to look up chesterton's fence. Thanks for the pointer
The sad thing is that DEI teaches white people that non white people are extremely sensitive and easily offended. For example, it teaches that if a non white person has an accent, it's offensive to ask where they are from, but asking a white co-worker is fine. This sensitivity leads to white co-workers having very formal interactions with non white co-workers, leading to a lack of friendship formation.
My best friend and roommate is black, the scary thing is I don't know if I would have struck up a friendship with him if I'd gone through DEI training before we met.
One can't help but wish that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were alive today and he could publicly debate the DiAngelo's and Kendi's of the world about their respective concepts of racism. Though Dr. King was devoted to "non-violence" my guess is that - "metaphorically speaking at least" - by the time such a debate was over he would have handed both of those two intellectual lightweights back their own heads.
MLK rolls in his grave every time he is misquoted by one of you. He understood just before he was killed that he led his people into a burning house and it was for this very reason, the continued ignorance of those he sort to engage with.
I’m a free speech absolutist but I also realize the postmodernists are right about some people. Some portion of people will always do what ‘the authority’ (not necessarily the mainstream authority either) tells them. You can’t stop that. It’s not worth the sacrifice to try.
WOW! Really great interview! I hadn't heard of Helen PluckRose. Thank you for introducing me to her. 🥰 Very enlightening.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Liberalism (in old sense) has one fatal flaw: Being tolerant to people, who are not tolerant to it. They always assume they will be in power to not allow this intolerant side to rise, but it did using liberalism as a defense. "It's just free speech" or by redefining what "hurting" someone is to speech they don't like. It nice to have liberal talking points like: "Unless you hurt someone else..." but when the "hurt" is redefined, it doesn't work. If we get Helen Pluckrose in power, and reset back to liberalism, it will fail again. This time much faster, because people already know the flaw.
You have to fix the flaw by being intolerant to people who are intolerant to liberalism. But people like her are purists and one step is too much authoritative for them.
Difficult to know where to put the line, isn't it?
It's not unlike the problems that a more "free, open" society faces when competing with those that are less so. The very thing that's worth having is also a weakness if people are prepared to play by different rules.
An unfortunate truth that Walter Bedell Smith wrote about and Hitler revelled in, they "win" either way. They either win outright, or turn their opponents into versions of themselves in the process of the struggle.
This conversation is so refreshing.
Super glad you enjoyed it
Someone rightly pointed out that a big part of the problem in academia is the pressure to publish A LOT more than one should and the peer review process itself. I think that’s part of how we got here BUT the takeover of most bureaucracies, in the university and out, by intersectional wokeists is the real problem now.
Helen is refreshingly sensible.
Helen is such a legend!
Helen appears to have a great capacity for emotional empathy coupled with her integrity. It's regrettable but pragmatic she suggests lying on certein topics for students to get through their courses.
i studied social anthropology and for extra credit i did DEI training at a different faculty, thought might be a good fit. no, quickly i was afraid to disclose my major and share my views and knowledge. I had already flunked gender studies classes for bringing up biology, so i stfu and nodded in unison. i wasnt even mad about the stupid stereotypes. but we were basically taught that we couldnt expect the same level of intelligence and contemplation from the "other side". this was aimed at economics students who would go on to become ceos and politicians.
I love hearing Helen speak on these issues. I am a fan of James and Peter, but Helen's work was particularly helpful for me as I used some of it when speaking up in my work place after a very divisive DEI was brought into do "training sessions". I know that I'm not the only person there who feels similarly, however people either became hostile or didn't speak up, and having some existing tools and templates proved helpful in expressing the issues involved. I'm happy to say that HR didn't invite him back. However, we do have race and sex and sexual orientation specific Employee Resource Groups and our CEO champions what amounts to race and sex and sexual orientation based hiring. Our company is also clearly "leaning in" to ideas of critical social justice. I like my job and like the company work culture, still it's frustrating to see what's going on. Thank you Helen for your thoughts on these matters and your work to help people push back against it.
I get the feeling Helen thinks the government should be involved in charity (welfare). If that is the case, her liberalism will never work. If you introduce coercion into the market (income tax), the signal between consumer and provider is not only corrupted but seized by the corrupt. Everything voluntary is free inquiry and the only way the market actually produces truth.
Beautifully said
Thanks for interviewing Helen!
A great conversation. Thank you for facilitating and sharing it!
Where can I find Helen's essay about colour based racism being a modern phenomenon? It fits with what I already thought, I would love to see her evidence for this.
Yes me too. It's interesting how the basic Them And Us prejudice has changed shape and emphasis over the centuries.
Fantastic discussion. Helen Pluckrose's studious understanding of the philosophical roots of identity political activism in particular strands of post structuralist linguistics and cultural theory (Foucault, Baudrillard, Leotard, Derrida et al) maybe what makes her so much more convincing than some other critics of woke . Those French thinkers and others had a huge influence on me (and my generation's art practice for instance) back in the 80s and 90s and the intellectual game was highly rewarding , but as soon as their idea that literally nothing exists outside language and its power relations comes up against reality and science the game is up.
No one is banning books Helen. I do agree that Rufo is a bit too much of an authoritarian for me.
Good to see Helen again. Havent heard from her in ages!
In a nutshell: free speech rights plus responsibilities.
Hate begets hate, racism begets racism… When someone is trying to tell a person that they are a racist because of their race, that is obvious racism. The ridicules idea is divisive, and right out of the marxist playbook.
It's a cluster f of bad ideas from top to bottom.
the bottom line to all this crap is that a lot of unemployable bitter losers are making a lot of money for doing nothing constructive
Helen Pluckrose is remarkable; so measured, precise, and coherently reasonable, her writing style is excellent. Evidence-based epistemology LOL - imagine that.
A doctorate too close to truth?
My recent learnings has been that many doctorates are not even worth using for fire lighting.
I came across academic prejudice during midwifery training. Now what do we have? Degree trained midwives and mothers either loosing their babies or them living with often profound disabilities. My ability to write an essay to Harvard references does nit make me a good care giver that makes sound decisions based on the lady and situation in front of me at that moment in time.
I started to write this before Helen mentioned about medicine. Hm, perhaps I'm not that far of base as I thought an hour ago.
Thanks ladies for a good discussion.
I'm a teacher and I have refused to participate in our DEI training. After the first one where I was basically called a white racist, and realized Jews don't count as a minority to them, I was done.
Excellent points
Very insightful discussion. Thanks for your work.
Thanks for watching
Kudos.
love both of these wonderful anti-witches! thank you, mate.
Great interview ❤ anarcism is considerable
Loved this
Glad you enjoyed this! Thanks for tuning in
The audio quality makes this impossible to hear clearly :(
❤Helen❤Inaya❤🎉
Life was simple and easy once upon a time. The bigots were sorted, put into their place and we got on with life. I have a long history and have lived through much.
@theequianoproject - The problem is see with your discussion about free speech is that while I think broadly public forums like social media should have codes of conduct that restrict behaviour (such as being uncivil, harassing and so on), rather than just having opinions stated respectfully that others may disagree with, the big issue around such codes has to be that they need to extremely clear.
Time and time again, we have seen situations where laws and codes protecting against extremely negative behaviours, such as "hate speech" and sexual assault, are created with good intentions, only to have certain ideologically contaminated groups later attempt to redefine less severe or even reasonable behaviours into those categories.
The observation that race is a modern phenomenon is uplifting to all people. It points to a future when race is no longer even in the mental model. And this finding is suppressed?
I think the reason it's suppressed comes down to the middle-class hatred of the working class. The working-class adapt by forming communities. Historically, that might have had a racial focus but if the need for values based on worker solidarity is greater, the focus shifts. There's no particular need for the middle class to manipulate people's values to persuade them to form cohesive communities, hence the resentment. It's no coincidence that all kinds of identity politics are managed to obscure the politics of class.
@@CC-hx5fz No race, no critical race theory.
@@godsofohio6734 Critical Race Theory has never delivered any opposition to racism. The problem is that the groups being most attacked in the name of _social justice_ are biological women (50% of the population), and the working class (70- ish % of the population). So, this is very different from the traditional left values which united the majority while genuinely uplifting minorities. This strand of political theory seems to be leading towards a new underclass that is difficult to define and easy to ignore. What puzzles me is how this nonsense is supposedly derived from Intersectional theory? There's no connection with the history of liberation politics, and no political future in ideologies that fail to deliver a fairer society. Hopefully CRT will fizzle out soon enough.
16:13 Inaya mentioned a link to a video of Helen explaining things in more depth. I'm not seeing it in the video info, although I see Helen's Twitter linked. Is that still coming or am I just blind?
I think Helen is wrong about the research on babies/toddlers and race. From a very young age babies prefer faces that look like their parents. This is quite logical as it would pay off to trust individuals who are more closely related to you (family etc). There are studies in which people can predict above average how closely people are related to them - even within their own “race”. Race as we understand it would not have arisen as an issue because people were not traversing continents within one lifetime. But we certainly develop an understanding of who is related to us - it is a continuum
Who could have figured that racism with good intentions is still a bad thing and can only lead to more racism.
In the case of black or Indian women, it's "internalised" colonialism. Or "internalized" actually, since it's the Americans who are so hung up on promoting this bollocks. There's an "internalised" everything, for when an actually _whatever_ person goes against what a non- _whatever_ person tells them their culture _actually_ is, or means. That word "internalised" does a lot of heavy lifting it really wasn't designed for!
Are mince pies a thing in the US or is it only a UK thing?
We don’t eat mince meat pies, but still use the term as slang.
@@Clownbabyworldtour slang for what?
Hello, I'm American (ca 1600s) and my mother used to make acres & acres of mincemeat *cookies* because we devoured them. Like chocolate chip cookies but mince bits instead of chocolate. Never a pie-- maybe it was too much mince.
Brittain is indigenously white though...i don't get the controversy. Any non white person calling great Brittain their home should appreciate the benevolence of the indigenous people imho.
Can the same be said for the United States? Australia? I wonder how the non indigenous whites appreciate those who are indigenous?
@gillmsnfillman1691 i see your point, but the Europeans brought a better way of living imho. I think we all need to be honest about that.
@@benaiahwright937 Yes, we must be honest about colonialism. For starters, the indigenous peoples never requested European interference. It's like a robber stealing your television and claiming they've given you a better life since you can't remain sedentary any more. Whatever your feelings about their way of life, the popular explanation that they "brought a better life" is untrue. If you believe that genocide, being treated as a subhuman, and having your land taken from you to live as a subhuman in your own lands is a better way to live, I question your morals. When Europeans colonised the region, they were never benevolent and should never be portrayed as such.
@@gillmsnfillman1691 I guess I've decided not to see things this way but I do get your point
Positive inclusion = good
Negative exclusion = bad
Helen on the beam!
Deference NOT!
ouu subscribed
My father used to tell me
You can not gain a moral standard of conduct when there is no standard of victimization. Doesn't take long for even allies to get tired of hearing "racist" 90 times a day about absolute nothing. take the same thing for transphobic, take the same for misogynist, homophobic.. the list drags on. The boy who cried wolf learned a lesson that general activists and allies apparently have not. When those terms are used for EVERYTHING that you disagree with instead of having specificity of what those terms mean, people stop caring. Activists need to understand the difference between a phobia and disgust. Lack of doing so makes them simply foolish in the most blatant of ways. Victimhood is not a virtue, we need to stop celebrating it as such. I am a liberal conservative it is not societies job to accept the latest trend. Its societies job to not interfere with you doing so. When you get into intersectionality of victimization its just a matter of which victim gets to scream the loudest that they are such. When you regulate speech you have to define the standard. The state is not in authority to define morality, that is the position of religion. They can define what is legal, which applies to all people not the two tiers of justice between "oppressers and oppressed" if its wrong to speak as a racist then its wrong to speak as an anti-racist. No subtiers Hate against whites is just as wrong as hate against blacks. If you construct a system of justice that is otherwise then you make the governed people take the revenge that said justice system was created to eliminate.
Love Pluckrose, but one correction needed: She mentioned "banning books;" she needs to read more into this as that's not happening - its the leftist warping of language again (just as they do w "don't say gay," etc, which is another example of deliberately mislabeling a perfectly benign law).
I listen to leftists and wokies, and our DEI trainer, and am so baffled that they don't think their so-called anti-racist views are racist.
These people walk into a room, and the first thing they do is count how many of each race are present. Only a racist would do that. People who aren't racist don't pay attention to things like that.
Or they tout the idea of different rules for different people based on race. What could be more racist than that? These people are everything they claim to be against. It's like a horror movie, like it can't be real, but it is.
When they have the race box on forms, I choose and write:
Other - Human Race (Created in God’s image)
Thinking about your musing on Free Speech. Perhaps we should consider different standards based on the length of the content. Like if you're gonna write a 20 page thesis and really argue a point it should be completely open. But sound bites can be moderated more heavily.
Then again. People are being openly anti semetic and the left doesn't seem to have a problem with it. While here in the US far to much of the right still supports Trump. So maybe no system could be trusted and applied fairly.
Maybe a benevolent super AI someday.
Flakes. The backlash to DEI isn't even detectable yet.
Woke 1.0 Feminism
Woke 2.0 Intersectional Feminism
or to write about terms/ideas not even fully understood...
What in GOD"S NAME did you THINK was going to happen? Continually Insult and denigrate those who don't agree with you (racist/sexist etc..) and you expect the backlash to NOT be personal??? I mean come ON
Isn't this the woman who made that article that said white people walking dogs at a park are a symbol of white supremacy or something? 😂
it was a troll paper
i
Inaya, I listened to this in my car. The quality of your microphone was so poor it was actually painful to listen to your speech. Please please get a decent microphone, I'm sure you have a pleasant voice. The microphone you have is very jarring to listen to.
Thanks for the conversation with Helen, I was alarmed to hear she has been unwell and relieved to hear she's better now.
You are amazing to see the evil within this woke stuff, but still are wholeheartedly wrong about the political right.
..But the racist kernel must already be present for it to take hold. What we are seeing is the rediscovery of how commonplace it is and further, despite protests to the contrary, how universal.
CRT teaches people to be racist then claims to have uncovered more racism. If racism was universal, it wouldn't be increasing - would it? That's what progressives need to account for. Progressives are supposed to have the numbers on racism. So why can't they be asked simple questions about how their ideology and methods made everything worse?
@@CC-hx5fz It also expands the definition to include even the slightest perception of racism where it is the sensitivity given to them by studying CRT that makes that perception possible. Concepts like unconscious bias (not scientific at all) and microaggressions (internal feelings of discomfort projected into the world as racism, which is the actual source of aggression, both micro and macro) are prime examples. Racism was on the decline until CRT became embedded in education, governmental bodies and corporations. CRT increases racism by promoting hypervigilance , suspicion and open hostility. It is the antithesis of what it claims to be.
@@1d3m1g0d and they're doubling down on their failure. One of the "contributors" in a creative writing forum was promoting the idea that we all should be working with sensitivity readers. I asked what a sensitivity reader does, and how are they qualified? That was six weeks ago. .... No answer! Nothing. Absolute silence, even from the snarks.
@@CC-hx5fz I've heard about sensitivity readers being used to review and then suggest redactions to classic works. I can't even imagine how it must be to have them have a say in your work as if the 'critical lens' is the only way to look at anything and then to suggest that you are insensitive or even bigoted with each edit. Resist or your work will be as neutered and pointless as they are...
Useless training
Let your guest explain what she does and has written. ??! Not you.
The problem is that critical theory is useful, but it shouldn't be the only framework for viewing the world. For example, it is helpful to see how patriarchy works in the world, but it doesn't explain everything. You both are conservatives so I am not sure you can see the usefulness since you don't have progressive tendencies.
The point is not useful or unuseful. But abuse , which is a particular kind of use and must be recognised and corrected. This process is independent of useful/useless considerations because it's not a scientific matter. It's about abuse and scientific standards, not about scientific discussion and implications of usefulness
Helen is conservative? How so?
Critique using Critical Theory is one approach, it is not the only approach.
@@dirkvanschalkwyk1919 She admits she is a "liberal conservative" in this interview or another.
@@daughter_of_earth So she uses a label and to you that "counters" any criticism. Perhaps use some critical thinking and not CRT.
@@jimkennedy4509 No, it just explains to me a little on why she might be less sympathetic to critical theory. Conservatives are not usually looking to dismantle any aspect of our society. It is more a left tendency. I have problems with the implementation of critical theory, but as someone who tends to be left of center, I also am more likely to be attracted to aspects of it that a more conservative-leaning person wouldn't be.
Helen , you voted for Biden. So why complaining about something you supported.
Biden never stood for any election in the UK.
The cries of racism is over you guys…… your ridiculous….. it’s 2023 … grow up
I sincerely doubt you've listened to this
Where can I find Helen's essay about colour based racism being a modern phenomenon? It fits with what I already thought, I would love to see her evidence for this.