Hope you liked this class. If you guys learned a lot, make sure to let me know so I can make more like these in the future! Big reminder to subscribe, like and comment for a chance to win a C9 Jersey. Very comfy I wear it to bed 10/10. If you want to participate live, join our discord. We have open forum question periods after classes to answer any thoughts you may have about the content or anything else Valorant related. discord.com/invite/traininggrounds
I disagree with the "you have to stay alive" point. Especially on attack, Clove is capable of being the second or (with team support and util) first entry. Their heal + speed boost is most advantageous when dealing with entry or a retake with multiple fast engagements and an hp buffer compared to your squishier teammates. And precisely because Clove is the only controller who can smoke after death, it is BETTER for them to die on site or close to it (like an entry fragger), so that they die in a range where they can continue to support with smokes. A clove that treats their life as too precious is far more likely to end up a) not taking advantage of their limited duration self heal or b) dying too far away from a contested site to have useful post-death utility. You're right that lurking is a sparing strategy for Clove, but I dont think you gave enough attention to exactly how important and game-changing the post-death smokes are - where and when you put yourself at risk of dying is very important to this character. Other controllers need to stay alive because of how essential their utility is - clove on the other hand needs to be more aggressive to get the full value of their utility.
Really insightful analysis. You're definitely not wrong and I agree with you. I can see where the theme of "playing too cautious" or your "life being too precious" is coming from as I did frame Clove's role very similarly to other controllers, but for the sake of brevity I lumped all controllers together to establish the controller role apart from the others. Nuance is hard to put all in a class meant to be 15-20 minutes long, that's why questions are added in the end where stuff like that is covered. I've covered in other classes the potential for a Clove to be the entry (without their ult). The reason I mentioned 3rd "when aggressive" instead of 1st or 2nd, is due to the average ranked comp being made up of double duelists, while inbetween the lines of the sentences a "normal" controller might stay a little farther back to avoid dying early. Not to mention that in your point, you have framed Clove to take 1s instead of trading to GUARANTEE their heal+speed boost. Not all teammates will help you win that fight, and it is okay to recognize that. Strong mechanical players may be okay with these plays (after all I do them), but for the average player, I believe that focusing on the trade will have more success in general. HOWEVER, I do see where the problem in presenting the class without tackling nuanced differences in Clove on Defense/Attack or Entry/Retake and is something I'll be taking in as feedback for the future. As for "you should stay alive" point, this is a more general point for players to fall back onto when getting into the controller class and are not aware of the different facets of their agent and in ranked is a good rule of thumb to maintain impact/control of your games. Starting Clove players tend to be stuck in a position where they are either dead and have to rely on the team to clutch up or lose their role as the team rotates off. Given the flexibility of the agent, saying it is BETTER for them to die might result in mixed results across different ranks and playstyles. As a teacher, I have to acknowledge the different ways a player might use the agent and give general guidelines to succeed. Again, I don't think you're wrong, I just gave a broader stroke for players to learn and ask questions. Even more parts of the aggression of the character were actually discussed more in detail after class which is why I value students coming in to ask questions or add comments like the one you just posted!
@@valoranttraininggrounds thank you for taking the time to respond! you are very right about trading being important to guarantee the pick me up. To clarify, the reason I said clove can go second (and with smart play and/or team util) first is because IMHO even in a double duelist comp you only *need* one duelist to entry. Two is nice and all, but one is all you need for the trade at least to my thinking. It's true that newer cloves may struggle to get a sense of team commitment on attack (you explained very well how important this is given the short duration of clove's smokes - it's similarly important for assessing their aggression as they should generally speaking only aggress on a site that either is committed to or will be committed to, so that they aren't twiddling their thumbs after they die). Side note that on attack in my experience Clove is particularly well suited to be an/the aggressor on a mid split on several maps- that way they can provide excellent support even with rotations.
@@ciuuin4098 I do like the way you think. I agree with all of it and I do actually use this on my day to day when playing the game. However, not all players work like this so to fully educate students and other watchers I took this portion of thinking and instead put it under a class for executions (which is under works) just to really nail that topic on the head. You know your stuff and its good to see viewers educating others about their experiences and what works for them. Critical thinking is important and healthy not only for the game but for creators making content like this, so I do value this conversation a lot!
Hope you liked this class. If you guys learned a lot, make sure to let me know so I can make more like these in the future! Big reminder to subscribe, like and comment for a chance to win a C9 Jersey. Very comfy I wear it to bed 10/10. If you want to participate live, join our discord. We have open forum question periods after classes to answer any thoughts you may have about the content or anything else Valorant related. discord.com/invite/traininggrounds
started playing clove and this is very helpful! Thanks
Hopefully this gives you a boost!
great video!
tyty! I try
So helpful man!!!!
ty don't be afraid to ask questions
THE GOAT STRIKES AGAIN
BANGER AFTER BANGER?
Amazing vid bro😊
Thank you!
clove goat
I really like the agent and hope they don't nerf them to the ground
sorry to say but the smokes does not work in my bronze/silver lobby
Im so sorry 😭
Sometimes you just gotta aim at the face and not let your team bring your game sense down
I disagree with the "you have to stay alive" point. Especially on attack, Clove is capable of being the second or (with team support and util) first entry. Their heal + speed boost is most advantageous when dealing with entry or a retake with multiple fast engagements and an hp buffer compared to your squishier teammates. And precisely because Clove is the only controller who can smoke after death, it is BETTER for them to die on site or close to it (like an entry fragger), so that they die in a range where they can continue to support with smokes. A clove that treats their life as too precious is far more likely to end up a) not taking advantage of their limited duration self heal or b) dying too far away from a contested site to have useful post-death utility. You're right that lurking is a sparing strategy for Clove, but I dont think you gave enough attention to exactly how important and game-changing the post-death smokes are - where and when you put yourself at risk of dying is very important to this character. Other controllers need to stay alive because of how essential their utility is - clove on the other hand needs to be more aggressive to get the full value of their utility.
Really insightful analysis. You're definitely not wrong and I agree with you. I can see where the theme of "playing too cautious" or your "life being too precious" is coming from as I did frame Clove's role very similarly to other controllers, but for the sake of brevity I lumped all controllers together to establish the controller role apart from the others. Nuance is hard to put all in a class meant to be 15-20 minutes long, that's why questions are added in the end where stuff like that is covered.
I've covered in other classes the potential for a Clove to be the entry (without their ult). The reason I mentioned 3rd "when aggressive" instead of 1st or 2nd, is due to the average ranked comp being made up of double duelists, while inbetween the lines of the sentences a "normal" controller might stay a little farther back to avoid dying early. Not to mention that in your point, you have framed Clove to take 1s instead of trading to GUARANTEE their heal+speed boost. Not all teammates will help you win that fight, and it is okay to recognize that. Strong mechanical players may be okay with these plays (after all I do them), but for the average player, I believe that focusing on the trade will have more success in general.
HOWEVER, I do see where the problem in presenting the class without tackling nuanced differences in Clove on Defense/Attack or Entry/Retake and is something I'll be taking in as feedback for the future.
As for "you should stay alive" point, this is a more general point for players to fall back onto when getting into the controller class and are not aware of the different facets of their agent and in ranked is a good rule of thumb to maintain impact/control of your games. Starting Clove players tend to be stuck in a position where they are either dead and have to rely on the team to clutch up or lose their role as the team rotates off. Given the flexibility of the agent, saying it is BETTER for them to die might result in mixed results across different ranks and playstyles. As a teacher, I have to acknowledge the different ways a player might use the agent and give general guidelines to succeed.
Again, I don't think you're wrong, I just gave a broader stroke for players to learn and ask questions. Even more parts of the aggression of the character were actually discussed more in detail after class which is why I value students coming in to ask questions or add comments like the one you just posted!
@@valoranttraininggrounds thank you for taking the time to respond! you are very right about trading being important to guarantee the pick me up. To clarify, the reason I said clove can go second (and with smart play and/or team util) first is because IMHO even in a double duelist comp you only *need* one duelist to entry. Two is nice and all, but one is all you need for the trade at least to my thinking. It's true that newer cloves may struggle to get a sense of team commitment on attack (you explained very well how important this is given the short duration of clove's smokes - it's similarly important for assessing their aggression as they should generally speaking only aggress on a site that either is committed to or will be committed to, so that they aren't twiddling their thumbs after they die). Side note that on attack in my experience Clove is particularly well suited to be an/the aggressor on a mid split on several maps- that way they can provide excellent support even with rotations.
@@ciuuin4098 I do like the way you think. I agree with all of it and I do actually use this on my day to day when playing the game. However, not all players work like this so to fully educate students and other watchers I took this portion of thinking and instead put it under a class for executions (which is under works) just to really nail that topic on the head.
You know your stuff and its good to see viewers educating others about their experiences and what works for them. Critical thinking is important and healthy not only for the game but for creators making content like this, so I do value this conversation a lot!
decent vid
tyty