The LOTR movies and books have been on repeat for 20+ years in my life. I've spent a lot of time in Middle Earth. A place I could never say goodbye to at this point.
I would have liked the later stories of Sam, Rosie and Elenor included. Always find the ending of Return of the King somewhat sad. The LOR films are quite good (despite missing out Tom and Goldberry) but not a patch on the books. (The less said about The Hobbit films the better).
I always interpreted it as Rosie (and assumedly other hobbit loved ones) didn't particularly like the unusual Hobbit behavior that the Baggins clan were known for. So him saying "I'm back" is reassurances that his un-hobbit-like adventure is over and he is safely home. I like to imagine that Rose was supportive of Sam's adventures, but didn't particularly like or understand the need. Rose seemed to know that Sam would indeed return from the ring quest when many other Hobbits assumed them dead (probably fell off a boat and drowned). Taking that a little further, his return from the Grey Havens was probably a relief because there was particularly large amounts of water and particularly large boats, Elven boats even - which I'm sure most hobbits are distrustful of, in especial. These are just my thoughts and opinions, I'm sure it could be interpreted in other ways.
@@FreejackVesa what fascinates me about Rosie is actually how little we know about her. Aside from her understandable hurt that the love of her life suddenly ran off when she thought they were going to get married sooner, we don’t really know her thoughts and feelings about his reason for going, about the Quest, about Frodo. If you read LOTR fanfiction, there is a wide variety of interpretations of her, from resenting Frodo to caring for him like one of the family, from refusing to listen to Sam’s account of what happened to understanding and appreciating what he did. Tolkien leaves so many of her most important qualities for us to decide. I personally feel that Sam would not want to marry someone who was completely dismissive of what he went through, and more importantly, who would disrespect Frodo. There are 5 bits of proof in the text that there was a friendship between Frodo and Rosie, with some level of understanding, IMO: 1) During the Scouring of the Shire, Rosie insisted that Sam return to Frodo’s side. This shows she understood that Frodo was important to Sam, and was respectful of their loyalty to each other. 2) Rosie agreed to move into Bag End with both Sam and Frodo. There’s no indication that she was ever uncomfortable with this or insisted she and her husband not have a third person in their home. Sharing a residence like that must have allowed for some bonding between her and Frodo, as well. 3) It is written that there “was not a hobbit in the Shire who was looked after with such care” as Frodo was cared for in Bag End. This could be simply a result of Sam’s care, but it’s more likely that the care was provided by both Sam and Rosie, especially since Frodo was often ill and in societies like the Shire it was usually up to the women to nurse the sick, especially in their own home. 4) Rosie accepted the name Elanor for her firstborn child, which was decided not by her or her husband, but by Frodo. Since Sam went to Frodo asking for help with thinking of a name, there’s a high chance it was Rosie’s idea that Sam ask if Frodo had any ideas. That shows an incredible amount of respect and acceptance toward Frodo, for her to let him name her own child. 5) She and Sam named their first son after Frodo. The meaning of that goes without saying. It just doesn’t feel in character for Sam to marry a woman who hated Frodo and refused to be kind to him. And I think anyone who did not like or understand the need for Sam to go away would resent Frodo like this. I feel like Sam must have told Rosie the whole story, and the extent of Frodo’s obvious wounds as well as the incredible importance of their quest must have registered with Rosie. The fact that Frodo and Sam briefly lived with the Cottons after returning, and Frodo was writing his book, and was briefly ill during his stay there, means there’s a chance Rosie noticed his wounds, and maybe even read some of his writings out of curiosity as to what happened. Either way, I think it’s most likely that Rosie did understand.
@@FreejackVesa Sam was so utterly changed and traumatized by what he went through that I highly doubt his marriage to Rosie could've been as successful as it was if she didn't understand what happened to him, at least to some extent. There's also a lot of proof that she was fond of Frodo. It is said there wasn't a hobbit in the Shire looked after with as much care as Frodo was given after Sam and Rosie moved into Bag End; it's most likely the care was provided by both of them, especially since Frodo was often ill in their house. Seeing how sick Frodo was must have caused Rosie to understand on some level that he and Sam went through something terrible. Also, she and Sam are said to have been close since childhood, so I feel like she would want to understand and know about an event that affected him so deeply. The fact that her eyes were described as “shining” when Frodo briefly mentioned Sam’s fame in Gondor indicates she was very interested in learning what happened. Plus she let Frodo name Elanor, and then named her first son after Frodo. One could argue "the Shire patriarchy meant she had to name her kids whatever Sam wanted them to be named," but there isn’t much proof that the Shire is actually like that, and even so, Sam definitely isn't like that. He's just not the type to be a controlling, oppressing husband; it’s against his very nature. He must’ve let Rosie have a say in things, and ensure she agreed with those names for the children who were hers, as much as they were his. And she must’ve understood his bond with Frodo and what they went through, and cared for Frodo in her own way, since she did agree. She even sought Frodo's own ideas of what to name her firstborn; that to me hints that she and Frodo became real friends. I think Sam says "Well, I'm back" as a somber acknowledgment that he has returned without Frodo, as he's still in shock that Frodo is gone, and needs time to process it, and Rosie offers him compassion and comfort by helping him sit down and putting their daughter in his lap, reminding him of what he still has, despite his loss.
@@12classics39 respectfully, I think some of your conclusions are transposing some of our cultural mores to Hobbit/Shire culture. I personally dont think there is really any evidence in any of Tolkien's work that suggest that "Shire patriarchy meant she had to name her kid whatever Sam wanted them to be named". It is noted in the text that it is Hobbit tradition to name girls after flowers. I don't really think we have enough information on Rosie's character and the relationship between Sam and Rosie to interpret in depth. I do agree that Rosie understood the bond between Frodo and Sam. Considering the time period that Tolkien lived, English rural tradition, and the text of LoTR, Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and "Tolkeins Letters", the relationship between Sam and Frodo is both one of deep friendship but also a relationship, at least originally, defined by their class status. The Bagginses, especially Bilbo and Frodo, were considered wealthy "country gentleman" amongst Hobbits. That is why Sam would always refer to Frodo as "Mr. Frodo" and "sir" - Sam was in many ways a servant/footman to Frodo. He was his employee as well, tending to his garden. In fact, Sam's father "Gaffer" Hamfast Gamgee was employed by Bilbo as a gardener/caretaker, so the Gamgees service to the Bagginses was a generational position. This is much like how wealth English landowners of the past had "servants" which would often pass from parent to child. To our modern sensibilities this seems archaic, and it is to a certain degree, but also one might consider that the position of a caretaker or servant meant living a life of relative ease and "luxury" compared to the alternative, which would be something like a laborer who had no ownership of land themselves. All that being said, my personal opinion is that Rosie also thought similar to this - viewing Frodo as a kind, wealthy gentle-hobbit from a distinguished family and being very well educated for a Hobbit. I do appreciate your perspective though, even though I may disagree on some details!
No. The people who disagreed with Tolkien were right: "everything was put back as it should be" is the proper ending for an Epic. Putting Sam's later life in an appendix enhances the fiction that the Red Book of Westmarch is real history.
The ending of LotR is bitter with a slight aftertaste of sweet. I'm guessing the detractors of the epilogue thought including it would render it rather mawkish.
I listened to a study on LOTR years ago. It suggested that the true hero wasn’t Frodo but Sam. Sam who was the loyal servant. Sam, who stayed by Frodo’s side, who understood where Frodo went at the falls. The Sam who conquered Shelob. Sam, who was ring bearer for a short time but it did not overpower his mind. Sam, who stood behind Frodo but allowed him to be the hero. Sam was blessed in the end.
Sam is the only one to wear the ring but never claim it as his own. He was also strong enough to wear it but willingly surrender it to another, like Bilbo.
Yes, I regret that Tolkien was bullied into not including it. His instincts were solid throughout, and he should have been allowed to follow them all the way to the end. Thanks for sharing this ending, which I did not know existed.
I agree. It was a beautiful epilogue!! I do like the current one, but I think it should have been done like the Hobbit, there are two versions of Return of the King so people can get their favorite epilogue ... I would get both myself, lol.
Hmmm. I don’t believe so. I think he listened to the polite criticism, thought about it and then agreed. He doesn’t strike me as one that could be pushed into something he didn’t want.
I think he made the ending of his own volition, not being bullied or allowed. He may have second guessed it. I wouldn't switch a word of a masterpiece.
I'm 78,and have been reading the Lord of the Rings since I started high school. At university, I participated in groups reading LOTR and squabbling over the pronunciation of Elvish and of the names of the characters. Great fun!. I loved the movies, too. I like the ending as is, but I sure would enjoy Tolkien's preferred ending., too! LOTR has had such a huge influence on my life to this day.
That's sweet and strangely soothing to read. The past couple of years, I (going on to be 62) have found support and consolation in Tolkien's awe-(and love)-inspiring creation, which I had enjoyed when I was sixteen, seventeen (reading TH and TLotR), and then had moved past of. But then I finally got down to read *The Silmarillion* (bought some forty years earlier), and I got to rewatch Peter Jackson's trilogy quite a couple of times in the past few years, and, well... I think I could call myself a well-read person (being thankful that my scope is not primarily anglosaxon (at all -- 80% of what I read is not. Magnificent things have come out of Britain and Ireland and North America (and India and Australia aso), but beyond that there's a LOT more to be found out there still) and that I was able to master five languages) -- and I don't think TLotR is the best novel ever written. Still, I will say the whole of Tolkien's lore and mythology and fairytales and stories and poetry and epic is something I have come to love deeply. I remember our professor of English literature (a T.S. Eliot and W.H. Auden scholar) at university in the eighties being more than a trifle condescending about the work of his late colleague. I have come to think he was wrong there. Not least because of Robert's videos here, I have got the sense that Tolkien is a lot profounder than I thought at the time. So, not the best writer ever. But still an admirable, very enjoyable and pretty darn good one -- even wise, sort of, even if I am not, as he was in a way, stuck in the vision of nineteenth century English countryside life as the epitome of human bliss on this Earth. (And I neither would have minded TLotR ending with the excluded epilogue, at all.)
@@vissersvet You didn’t include a few pieces of critical information! First and foremost, what (in your opinion) IS the best novel ever written? Not that you’re right-or wrong-but I’m sure the answer will be interesting. That said, I’ve found perspective is generally a creation of context and experience. As you’re not from one of the native English speaking countries (right?) might I ask what your native country and language is? Certainly not to criticize you in any way! I ask to better understand your perspective and your version of inherent biases (we all have them-Americans have their versions, British have theirs, Aussies have theirs, and so on (now the Canadians are gonna be mad at me!)). I’m actually envious of your mastery of five languages! I know English extremely well but have had great difficulty learning other languages. Not for want of trying. Perhaps because that “space” was used in the study of music and computer languages but that’s just speculation.
I love the books. I have the books, in hardback including the anniversary edition. But the movies were at travesty. Don't understand how anyone who liked the books could like the movies
@@LKMNOP I feel the same way about the Hobbit movies. But I thought the LOTR treatment was quite decent. I objected to the omissions, and had some different opinions than Jackson about this or that but on the whole I thought it was a respectable interpretation-and that’s all a movie is, an interpretation-of the true story, Tolkien’s words. But as with all things in life, opinions will vary-and that’s fine. I’m baffled by people who start to read LOTR then put it aside saying it is “too wordy” or “boring” but there too, people have to have the right to feel as they do. [of course, in this case they are just wrong but I’m not gonna tell them that! 😂]
@@LKMNOP mostly it was the dialogue that ruined the movies for me - it was so jarringly modern and cliched that it ruined the sense of immersion that I needed to allow me to allow for the [arguably necessary] changes to the narrative. Though the Grey Company will never not fill me with horror.
I always wanted to name my daughter Elanor when I read the books as a teen. So my 1stborn is Eleanor (spelled different) and my 2nd is Samantha (Sam) so now I feel like I have my kids named after LOTR characters ☺️
My oldest daughter is named Lorien Galadriel! She's 44 years old. I picked her name out when I was a 13 year old boy. She asked about her name and I told her that her first name was the most beautiful place and that her second name was the best person. I read her several poems from LOTR about Lorien and Galadriel.
Writers - and, perhaps more importantly, editors - often say that one of the most important principles of good writing is to avoid explaining, or even showing, too much. I once heard a renowned storyteller, who was taking questions from an audience, address one that asked how he constructed such a rich, vivid, lifelike world with his words. He responded that a crucial principle, one that he constantly reminded himself of, was that no words of his, no matter how detailed or artful, could ever hope to create a world so lifelike and rich as the one his listeners’ or readers’ imaginations could create in their heads. In other words, he needed to remember that there was always a point at which his best tactic was to hold his tongue, and get out of the way of his audience’s own work in filling out, in rendering whole and real, the world that he had suggested. So, it could be that here Tolkien heeded the advice of friends and colleagues, that the more evocative ending would be one in which he did not tell everything that was in his head, about his characters’ destinies, but left his readers to imagine what was to be with all of them.
Editing is certainly a critical part of writing. But let’s extend your premise just a little bit. What if the Epilogue was included. What, then, happened with the North kingdom at Fornost? Who knows. When did Círdan finally sail into the West? Dunno. As men proliferated did Hobbits still go to Bree? Who can say? What happened to Orthanc? Ask Aragorn! In other words there are so many unanswered questions one can think of-those are just off the top of my head. Sam was our ambassador on the journey so bringing closure to *his* story (and only his) has special significance and satisfaction even if the reader doesn’t quite know why. It is, of course, because the reader unknowingly identified with Sam. This was by design, albeit subtle and with a light touch. That’s why we didn’t grieve Frodo’s loss of the Shire, we grieved Sam’s loss of Frodo! The epilogue showed Sam healed of his loss… ending with a note of the wild unknown. How Tolkien!
@@joerosenman3480 Perceptive and well said. What is amazing to me is that this was only Tolkein’s second novel and a - to me - astounding improvement over the first. The Hobbit is fun but not deep and way too long. I know how much longer LOTR took to create, but lots if people take a long time to write a BAD book. LOTR’s characters, depth, construction, and complexity have us talking about it still.
I think maybe even Bilbo as aging doesn't happen normally over there. A final réunion and some time spent together before the Hobbits eventually go the way of Men (to which Hobbits belong as far as souls are concerned). It normally feels more likely that Bilbo already passed even over there but it's just my headcanon
I think in the appendices and other writings Sam eventually sails into the West to the Undying Lands, as did Legolas and Gimli (who as elf-friend was allowed to also sail into the West. Eventually when the last elves chose to leave middle Earth, Cirdan the Shipwright went with them.
Unfortunately sailing into the West is simply the acceptance of death for mortals. The Undying Lands are not undying because of the lands, but because of those who inhabit them. In fact, mortals that travel to these lands often age faster than in the east. It’s likely that Frodo did not live more than a few months after his crossing.
I feel like Tolkien was implying that, when he decided to have Sam sail from the Havens in old age and wrote it that way. Tolkien clearly wanted to have all loose ends wrapped up, and thus I highly doubt that he intended for Sam to sail West and find nothing but a gravestone waiting for him. He would never give a character that meant so much to him such a bleak ending. Without spelling it out, he’s telling us with a sort of “wink-wink” that Frodo lived long enough in the West to greet Sam and they saw each other again.
This is just my idea - Sam hears the sound of the sea; it's letting him know that one day, he too will 'go west' into whatever eternity awaits faithful hobbits.
I will never understand the collective renouncement of that sweet little epilogue by Tolkien’s peers. To call it “harmless” would do it injustice; it sounds sweet, and a beautiful, everyday life-filled ending to a tale of love, written with love.
@@rushnafwadud I didn't say all. And the hobbit and lord of the rings started out as stories he told his children. Tom Bombadil was based on one of his kids dolls. And then he would continue to send new writings to his kids for feedback, even as they were stationed overseas during the war. Yes, his editor and the Inklings provided input - but his work had always been closely tied to his children. I'm not saying that they were for sure the ones that were against the epilogue, they were integral to the story of how these books were written though.
I didn't mind "The Grey Havens" as I originally read it. Although, I have to admit, I didn't appreciate it so much until I got a bit older. In retrospect, it seems like a good end to a story. The ones you love so much leave us, but life and new things go on. New loves, of both friend and family, come along and are worthy of our immediate attention; just like old loved friends and family did before. We remember what was and hopefully recognize what is. And if we're really lucky, maybe we see it all again someplace where it never ends again.
I have always accepted that the Grey Havens was where the Third Age of Middle Earth, along with all the Little Peoples, went to sail away, to "a far green country under a swift sunrise", to die to their lifetime's world, leaving the new Fourth Age to Men, the mortals.
@@thomasblanchard6778 through the ages the longevity of every race seems to wane to a shorter life span. The early humans lived a few centuries as could Hobbits and dwarves to almost an eon at 800 yrs old, after the destruction of the simarils the elf's too showed signs that they had lost their own ageless qualities.
If the Epilogue had been included from the beginning we would all have loved it and it wouldn't have destroyed anything. And if someone had said to us now, no let's take it out it has no place in the ending we'd all have thought that person lost their marbles.
I get the feeling the whole epilogue about Sam and his family sound like Tolkien himself He entrusts his offspring with his writings, just like sam with his daughter, and after all the adventures Sam and Tolkien had they were happy to be back in home and hearth
I totally agree that the epilogue should be thought of as canon but works better as an afterthought rather than a part of the main story. It deepens the perfect “I’m back” ending that we do have. My favorite detail in the epilogue is how Sam seems to have special psychic/intuitive connections with both Rosie and Frodo. On the very day that Frodo and Sam’s quest was achieved, Rosie could somehow feel that Sam was going to come home. And even with a whole Sea between them, Sam still can sense something that reminds him of Frodo, even at the warmth of his doorstep. Very beautiful. But there will never be a more perfect, more simultaneously heartwarming and heartbreaking closing line in the history of literature than “Well, I’m back.”
For me the call of the sea wasn't the call of Frodo but the same call of the seed that Frodo felt due to his bearing the ring. Since Sam had bored the ring he would feel that same call to the sea.
I’m happy to be part of a community that wonders. I like this video installment. Lucky for us so much of Tolkien’s writings and papers have been published.
@@MagusMarquillin So many people have a mean nature. I was a little surprised to see it here, though. (Not you, it is sometimes hard to tell from just the written word in a forum like this)
I wish the epilogue would have been included 😢. I always felt like the ending chapter (The Grey Havens) was a bit incomplete! Thank you for this video In Deep Geek. Yours sincerely, Nate.
No way I was busy watching The Fellowship of the Ring and then I see this notification I absolutely love LoTR, and I love it even more thanks to videos like this!
I completely agree that the ending to the main series was what it needed to be. But I dunno, something the distant sound of the ocean calling Sam really hit different. I go inland for a week and already my brain is like "but where's the water..?"
Whatever ending Tolkien comes up with creates new angles to explore and new questions to answer. With his writing style, no story stops completely, it goes on like water gathering for a while then finding a new way.
When I went to Boulder, Colorado in the 1980s, I walked out of my hotel and saw the Rockies to my right. Said, "Nice mountains, but it needs an ocean." My three older cousins, with whom I had grown up, all joined the Air Force in the late 1960s and 70s. Hearing the call of the ocean, I joined the Navy. 50 years later, I sail on Tampa Bay and hope to make the crossing to the Bahamas.
The story of Aragorn and Arwen ending is included in the appendices and it has dialogue and everything. I think they could've added that chapter as an appendix as well.
I would have deeply appreciated the option of reading this epilog. For all too often we have these stories where extraordinary people leave ordinary lives to do extraordinary things, and then return to their ordinary lives. All too often these characters are portrayed as having difficulty adjusting, or not being able to adjust at all to their former lives. Sam, although forever changed by his experiences, does find a new equilibrium and leads an ordinary life with extraordinary character. it is an example of the successful hero returning to lead a productive life and not becoming a burden upon those who love him. It is a story all too often not told, and one that was tragically missing from the post-World war II narratives of the men who survived but were marred and scarred for life. Perhaps this is the reason Tolkien's circle of friends and advisors did not want this epilog included in the main story. The tale of what comes after the adventure is often bitter-sweet. It is, however, a part of the tale, and one all too often not told.
"One must end somewhere, I suppose." Agreed, although when I finished the last of the trilogy I really did not want it to end. 🤔 Anyway, many thanks because I didn't know about the epilogue. Merry Christmas! 🎅
I think that, if Tolkien had published this epilogue, then he would have wanted to write a story about how Eleanor passed the book on to the next person. So, one hast to end a book somewhere.
This video is most welcome because it made me realize I actually have this epilogue (which I didn't know existed) in one of the two HoME books I have thrifted, and wonderful timing, I can insert it in when I finally reread the whole story next year. This is so exciting - even though it's a few pages, it feels as if JRRT came back with an entire sequel to read! Happy Yule! _Only hitch is there's two separate versions of it. I'll have to figure out which one counts like much of the unfinished tales._
@@eljanrimsa5843 Thanks - it stands to reason that it'd be more refined as he aimed for publishing. I'll read that one as the capstone - but naturally I'll read the other before long also, and I expect there will be things I like about it that aren't in the second, which schisms the story in a way, like the story of Saruman dealing with the Ringwraiths. Pardon this nit picking, it's still great we can read these at all.
For me, the real ending to the book is Frodo's beautiful blessing and prophecy over Sam on their way to the Grey Havens. "Do not be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You will have to be one and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do....But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see. Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on."
Whether you ship Frodo and Sam or not (and of course you don’t have to), this whole speech of Frodo’s reminds me so much of Jack’s dying speech in Titanic as he encourages Rose to live a full life without him, including having children with someone else. Two emotionally powerful scenes, if nothing else.
I like that the epilogue was published by Tolkiens son among the letters and other works. you never want to drag on the story and have it, as Bilbo would say, Like butter scrapped over to much bread.. The ending was perfect.
Couldn't agree more, Robert. It's wonderful that we get this glimpse, but also great that we get to keep the ending as it is, with all the elegance and weight of the story packed into three little words from our hero, Sam.
Thank you Robert! :-) I love this video I got chills when you were reading out the order of events and then the last few lines of the epilogue! :-) I’m blind and have not yet found an audio copy of the 12 volume history of middle earth so it is amazing to know that this epilogue exists and it is published in volume nine of the history. I shall petition Audible that the 12 volume history to be recorded if it isn’t already. I’m so glad you did this video and you did a great job, but the fan of Tolkien that I am and the author that I am really wants to read the epilogue in full as it was written. :-)
I'm grateful you shared the epilogue with us, and I regret it wasn't included as part of the appendix. At least, I find that it fulfills a longing in my heart to get a taste of Sam's history afterward. The indication of a psychic or spiritual link between Sam and his dear Rosie is meaningful, as is the resolution of Sam's yearning for Elves in his own enchanting daughter. No less meaningful is the call of the Sea, and the promise that he will see his beloved Frodo again. I am happy to know these resolutions.
Man, I love your take on Tolkiens thoughts and ideas.. Every time I watch one of you'r videos, I can't help but to just sit and nod in agreement.. Love your work, keep it up..❤
In Tolkien's own foreword to the second edition of LotR, he notes that 'the book is too short.' I wonder if this was a reference to the excluded epilogue? In my view the ending as it stands is fine. It concludes Sam's journey in the War of the Ring; anything else would be another story. The saying "Always leave them wanting more" comes to mind. As always, Robert, thank-you for your hard work in making these videos and sharing your knowledge and insight with your viewers. I look forward to the next one, but in the meantime I wish you and yours a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year!
I can only give a heartfelt thank you for one of the best stories (all his works) I've ever read (& read &read etc.) I'll never tire of Middle Earth. ❤
I was crying so hard at the end of Return of the King the first 10 or 15 times I read the trilogy, that an epilogue would not have made a difference. I've read the appendices too, and cried over Aragorn and Arwen's tale. I've read the trilogy so many, many times; I read my paperback set literally to pieces, and my hardback set isn't looking to good. Perhaps the epilogue was best left off, now I consider. The published ending forced me to read the appendices, because I had to know more. I had to know all of it. The epilogue, as you've so beautifully read it, really does give it an ending that seems final, whereas the actual ending is more of an invitation to explore. I hope I'm saying all this right, LotR is a hard history to quantify. But if I read it today, I'm pretty sure I would cry at the end. There is something so intrinsically hobbit about Sam saying, "Well, I'm home," as he takes up Elinor, and it squeezes my heart with love and pain. JRR Tolkien was a rare genius who created a story that feels like a real history.
I don't remember where I read it, when I was in high school, way back in the early 70s, but there is more to the epilogue. When their children are grown, and Rosie dies, Samleaves the book with his daughter, and takes an Elven ship to the West, because he also, was once a ringbearer.
It's not difficult to see the conundrum of whether to include the Epilogue or not at the time. What he did include was sufficient, and an addition of a formal epilogue in that masterpiece could have been anti-climatic at that prefect conclusion of "Well, I'm back", which was such a Sam thing to say. Since then, or at least at present times, I'd think most would love to have had the Epilogue published. If not at the end, then as a novelette perhaps that was published separately, a stand alone addendum. Christopher deserves all the praise extended to him for his incredible editing and finishing of his Fathers mountains of draft and notes, right down to scribbles in the margin of books or on a scrap of paper. His arduous accomplishments were a true academic achievement that Christopher's Father would surely praise and admire.
Like you, Robert I think the ending we were left with was the best one. And yet I can appreciate that epilogue too. I might have liked it in the appendices.
“Well, I’m back.” Never felt finished to me. Always feels like an anticlimactic kick in the stomach, a sudden discarding of a world and dear friends. Like when you learn of the unexpected death of a loved one. Hard to breathe. Every time I read LOTR, I have a period of mourning when finished, not a joy of completion. The epilogue would have been MUCH appreciated. Thank you for this video, this heals many teenage wounds. ❤
I'm happy how it actually turned out, wherein we, the readers of Tolkien, got both the ending and the epilogue. And the appendices ofcourse. It's nice to have an ending after the ending. When the credits rolls it's kind of a treat to peel back the curtain and see one last glimpse. To actually know what finally happened to all the characters, an ending for the characters, not just the tale itself.
I do like the epilogue, how it hints that Elanor will carry on a family love for elves like Sam but also a glimpse that Sam will eventually go to the sea.
@@Cosper79 such emphasis is put on the importance of geneology and heritage in shaping a hobbit’s character (Bilbo and Frodo sought adventure because of their Took roots, for example) that I often wonder about Sam’s heritage. He is not related to the Tooks, and his father clearly has no urge to meet Elves, but we are given zero information about his mother, except her name, Bell Goodchild. Perhaps she once met Elves passing through the Shire but kept it secret since she thought nobody would believe her, and that connection with Elves passed on to her son and granddaughter.
I am 80 tears old. From my youth, I have read the entire series several times with enormous pleasure every time. i am currently in the middle of The Fellowship right now. After reading of the eventual death of King Aragorn, and the sorrowful wandering in the wild of Arwen, I think the tale sounds complete to me. But that's just me.
I should very much like to have had this epilogue included. Learning about it today, I grieve that it shouldn't be in the published books. I haven't reached volume 9 of the History of Middle Earth, not even close, but now Imma go look for this epilogue as soon as possible. How lovely is this prologue; how nicely does it round some unfortunate sharp edges. How badly have I needed this completion, in particular, to Sam's story and character arc. How much have I been missing it, even without knowing it before today. Somehow it always felt that Sam's chapter on the Red Book had been missing. Alas! that Tolkien should have listened to this advise, mistaken in spite of how well intentioned, as opposed to what his heart so desperatly had been trying to tell him. Let this be a reminder for me, one I greatly have been needing: advise on what to cut out of a story is doubtlessly worth pondering; still the heart may know better than a couple dozen minds every now and then.
I never knew there was an epilogue beyond the appendices and I didn't find THEM for many years after my first reading. I always adored the ending, as written. It left me filled with hope for Sam and Rosie's future, without having to wonder what it would be. The age of peace had come and they, at least, would bear fruit before the next... 🤷♂ Thanks so much for sharing it.
i felt so empty that the story was over and would have consumed any additonal words by Mr Tolkein. That said i understand why it was left out, and believe it was probably for the best. I enjoy your take and reading of it. thank you and Merry Xmas DG
Thank you for this, for reading the final verse so eloquently. I feel a little more complete having heard it. Knowing the story of LotR, mainly through the BBC radio play (not having seen the movies) and reading the novels only once, this epilogue finishes off the story, for me. However...however, you quietly glad of not having this epilogue included made me think of the ending of the radio play and Sam's "I'm back" does, indeed, finish that tale nicely. But as I have said, I am familiar with the story as told in the radio plays, and I listen to it probably once a year, and now having that little bit more of the story makes me realise I did want more. The story of the ring was not complete until Sam crosses the Sundering Sea and therefore, the LotR is not complete while Sam still lives in the Shire. The epilogue also tells us there are no true endings; there's only a continuation of life. As the song tells us, life (the road) goes ever on.
I'm a sucker for long drawn out endings. I can probably handle another after this new old one. This inquisitive elf-touched daughter of The Gardner seems to me the perfect person to find a definitive answer to what happened to the Entwives.
Hi @exharkhun5605. I always wondered why Pippin and Merry didn't wonder (& suggest to Treebeard) whether the trees that 'come alive' in the forest in Buckland were the lost Entwives. They were lost to a land where they tilled the earth, I think (?), which sounds very Shire-like to me.
@@rhusradicans2122 I know, it seems so obvious. Especially since Merry and Pippin have already travelled through so many types of true wilderness that the contrast should be obvious to them. I've made that connection with the Shire myself when I was young. It may have been the first thing I ever worked out on my own and it turned out to be a dud. 😁 I seem to remember from one of the many great Tolkien lore channels I follow that the probable place of the Entwives' cultivated lands were what's now called the Brown Lands, just above the Dead Marshes. These lands were destroyed by Sauron in one of the many wars. I think the channel in question implied that the Entwives were all killed back then. My personal thought is that the Brown Lands border the Anduin River and the original Hobbits lived between the Misty Mountains and the Anduin. A few of the Entwives may have gone the same way, maybe via Lorien or first up into Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood) and ending up in or near the Shire eventually.
I would like to see a special edition of Return of the King that includes the epilogue. Not to replace the original final work but as a limited edition type of thing.
Nice presentation. Thank you. The epilogue was there for our eventual enjoyment. But without ever knowing about it I loved the world Tolkien created and shared. Now knowing his thoughts on Samwise's homelife and a few thoughts on it, well, it's lovely.
I would have preferred it be present in the main book, if for no other reason because Professor Tolkien apparently wanted it read that way, until the pressure from others was too great and he was compelled to change it.
I think that, the Lord of the Rings was an epic tale and the book and the movie both exemplified that epic tale in their own ways. In the end, it felt as if so many years had passed (as they had, truly) that in the end, at the conclusion, it felt as though everything was old but also new, the return was almost odd. Home, but... somehow not. A long journey ends and you find yourself back at the beginning. Sometimes you sit, and look around yourself and the world feels strange. Home is still home, or course, but somehow it feels off. You stare through your old windows and walk down your old streets but theyre different. Theyre different because you are different. Home is not the same place you left, it cant be, because you are not the same as when you left. Its a strange feeling but also a new beginning, like learning how to live your old life again. Sometimes, what happened on your journey can barely be explained to those you left at home and you have changed so much that you might be unrecognizable. That odd feeling, the quiet discomfort, its somehow sad, but also somehow new and exciting. I think in the end, an epilogue wasnt needed. The story had been told, an age defined. The world and all that were in it had changed. Trying to explain what came after wasnt needed to conclude the story. I think the appendices were wonderful, and it was good to find what happened later but it wasnt necessary for the Lord Of The Rings. That story was complete, so complete that any epilogue would have only taken away from what had already happened.
My fondness, nay, love for these books took hold at the age of 13. I was saddened by the ending, not for how it ended but that it was in fact the end of the story. I scoured the appendices and gleaned as much information as I could. I made of stories in my own head. And I've read the trilogy nearly ever year from then until now. (There was a lapse during my pregnancy and birth of my own little Hobbit.) Thank you for this episode. It was quite informative and your narration is very pleasant to the ears.
The story as we have it ends on a carefully composed blend of melancholy and contentment. We couldn't have had that with the epilogue included, so I think it was right to leave it out, and leave the discoveries about Sam's future (along with the others') to the appendices.
Part of the magic of these books is that many things are hinted at, but never quite realised. That laconic "I am back" is quite perfect IMHO. Well, I am a person, who tends to struggle with that lengthy prologue, "Concerning Hobbits".
I think the ending we have, with Sam's “Well, I am back”, is perfect. However, an epilogue isn't really a new ending, it's an afterword or supplement, of what happened after a book ends, not the end in itself. I would have been quite happy if Tolkien had included it in the published version myself, bearing that in mind
Great video, I never knew about this ending before. I’d of liked to of seen it included, even if not as an official chapter even if it was in the appendices I think it’d of been a nice touch.
I love this epilogue, which I was previously unaware of, but I, like you, think the ending should stand as published. In passing, I would say that the images you use from the Peter Jackson production reminded me of my disappointment that he chose not to include "The Scouring of the Shire", no matter how good his reasons were for doing so. Tolkien's work was as close to perfection as any human endeavour can be, and should remain unaltered.
In agreement of leaving the epilog out, one must understand that all (written) stories must end at some point. What happened after Gandalf and Frodo sailed West? Sam did. Then what after Sam? Elanor. What about Her children? Grandchildren .... and so on. I started reading "Fellowship of the Ring" around 1960. I do love the book, the story, the characters and everything. I've read quite a bit of Mr. Tolkien's other works. So don't ever think I am not impressed and curious about other things. (Tom Bombadil for one.) But stories have to end.
I definitely wouldn't mind having it included, maybe as a addendum in full, because when I finished the last chapter, I didn't want to leave middle earth just yet, and I feel Tolkien didn't either. Maybe Sams daughter would've embarked on her own quest to seek out some remnants of elves and expanded the story of the red book with her story as well.
According to the appendices, Sam handed over the Red Book to his daughter before departing (as family tradition held) for the Havens. She was formally a member of the royal court of Aragorn, so she (or her descendants) would have been able to know about the passing of Merry, Pippin, and other members of the Fellowship.
The stories in the Appendices take us out of the present of the story and removes us to place in the future where we can examine the past over a span of many decades as scholars. It allows a greater field of view than having Sam relate it to his daughter. It’s a good technique for covering the wider story, though it may lose the more personal touch.
A main theme of Tolkien is that every story is but a part of a greater story so in that sense every ending would've felt incomplete because "The Story" is still going on. But I feel that this was the right decision, as Frodo leaving for Valinor marks the end of the story of the War of the Ring and his (and in a sense Sam's) journey as a protagonist. Knowing that (for example) Gimli and Legolas left Middle Earth together is nice but it doesn't add anything thematically or to their characters
All good stories have a beginning and an end. While a good writer knows what happens before the beginning and after the end, that good writer knows to not include those things in the main story, but leave it for an extra for the few who want it.
I think I might have liked to see that final ending in the appendix of the book. Tucked away where people could read it if they wanted, but not quite part of the full narrative.
I don't think much would of happened in the aftermath of LOTR, Tolkien ended it, and it's implied that the world was at peace forever after. That's how I see it.
In the Elanor epilogue, Tolkien is in his inimitable way, expressing the joy, wonder and love of parenthood and parenting. That's a theme that isn't a large part of LOTR. So, much as I like the chapter, I think IDG is right. Better that LOTR ends as it does and that those who are interested can discover it later; perhaps when they have themselves experienced parenthood. So a big thank you to IDG for letting me know about the Elanor epilogue.
The end is the end. I first found the trilogy in the mid 60's at the age of 15, I didn't read the Hobbit for another 3 years. I'm hooked for life. 🙂I enjoyed your presentation.
Tolkien's choice was above criticism. The ending as published is quite satisfying; there are no major loose threads to be dealt with. I can't imagine any continutation that would add rather than detract from the story as it stands.
A few days ago I found your channel or it found me. Anyway, thank you for your work and your passion for lotr! I will continue watching. Special thanks for any video about Sam, the best character in the history of fantasy.
Tolkien anticipated the 'FAQ' form by many years, in a way-a fair bit of it is answering questions from Sam's children. Although it would have weakened the finish of the novel, I have often wished that he could have revised it into a stand-alone short story years later, when Allen & Unwin were asking him if he had anything new (he ended up giving them the unexpected Smith of Wootton Major). With Pauline Baynes illustrations (Aragorn and Arwen at the Brandywine Bridge greeting Sam and family, yes please?), the Epilogue could have been a much-loved part of the Tolkien mythos after all. I suspect that he had simply forgotten the discarded Epilogue as a publishable item by that time.
In the other draft of the epilogue in HOME9, if I recall correctly, he goes through the King's letter in more detail and they plan for Elanor to be a handmaid to Arwen, also very interesting.
I think it ended where it should have. Tolkien's imagination was so powerful, I can see why he'd want to keep going, especially when one realizes how much Tolkien loved Sam. I think the Epilogue is just Tolkien's way of saying, "and they lived happily ever after."
I've always enjoyed the Hobbit and the LOTR books. My mind though, I think would have liked to read further as to where everyone ended up. One day, thought, my 8 yr old son kept telling my he was bored and it was too hot outside to play. So I handed him, my well worn copy of the Hobbit. I didn't hear complaints, and a week later he wanted to know if there was more. So I handed him LOTR. Not only was he hooked, he still reads it and when his own children were growing up he read it to them and then gave the books to read for themselves when they got a bit older. These are stories that will live forever, in our hearts and minds.
Maybe it was as hard for Tolkien to say goodbye to everyone as it is for us.
True Tolkien had more to say but dreamers like to write their own endings and be their own heroes, so he was kind to the world.🙏💕🙏💕
For Tolkien, probably much harder. He created them.
I agree. Can’t imagine saying goodbye ever!
The LOTR movies and books have been on repeat for 20+ years in my life. I've spent a lot of time in Middle Earth. A place I could never say goodbye to at this point.
I would have liked the later stories of Sam, Rosie and Elenor included. Always find the ending of Return of the King somewhat sad. The LOR films are quite good (despite missing out Tom and Goldberry) but not a patch on the books. (The less said about The Hobbit films the better).
"well, I'm back" is such a beautiful understatement after the long epic, I've always loved it. It's pure hobbit.
I always interpreted it as Rosie (and assumedly other hobbit loved ones) didn't particularly like the unusual Hobbit behavior that the Baggins clan were known for. So him saying "I'm back" is reassurances that his un-hobbit-like adventure is over and he is safely home. I like to imagine that Rose was supportive of Sam's adventures, but didn't particularly like or understand the need. Rose seemed to know that Sam would indeed return from the ring quest when many other Hobbits assumed them dead (probably fell off a boat and drowned). Taking that a little further, his return from the Grey Havens was probably a relief because there was particularly large amounts of water and particularly large boats, Elven boats even - which I'm sure most hobbits are distrustful of, in especial.
These are just my thoughts and opinions, I'm sure it could be interpreted in other ways.
@@FreejackVesa what fascinates me about Rosie is actually how little we know about her. Aside from her understandable hurt that the love of her life suddenly ran off when she thought they were going to get married sooner, we don’t really know her thoughts and feelings about his reason for going, about the Quest, about Frodo. If you read LOTR fanfiction, there is a wide variety of interpretations of her, from resenting Frodo to caring for him like one of the family, from refusing to listen to Sam’s account of what happened to understanding and appreciating what he did. Tolkien leaves so many of her most important qualities for us to decide.
I personally feel that Sam would not want to marry someone who was completely dismissive of what he went through, and more importantly, who would disrespect Frodo. There are 5 bits of proof in the text that there was a friendship between Frodo and Rosie, with some level of understanding, IMO:
1) During the Scouring of the Shire, Rosie insisted that Sam return to Frodo’s side. This shows she understood that Frodo was important to Sam, and was respectful of their loyalty to each other.
2) Rosie agreed to move into Bag End with both Sam and Frodo. There’s no indication that she was ever uncomfortable with this or insisted she and her husband not have a third person in their home. Sharing a residence like that must have allowed for some bonding between her and Frodo, as well.
3) It is written that there “was not a hobbit in the Shire who was looked after with such care” as Frodo was cared for in Bag End. This could be simply a result of Sam’s care, but it’s more likely that the care was provided by both Sam and Rosie, especially since Frodo was often ill and in societies like the Shire it was usually up to the women to nurse the sick, especially in their own home.
4) Rosie accepted the name Elanor for her firstborn child, which was decided not by her or her husband, but by Frodo. Since Sam went to Frodo asking for help with thinking of a name, there’s a high chance it was Rosie’s idea that Sam ask if Frodo had any ideas. That shows an incredible amount of respect and acceptance toward Frodo, for her to let him name her own child.
5) She and Sam named their first son after Frodo. The meaning of that goes without saying.
It just doesn’t feel in character for Sam to marry a woman who hated Frodo and refused to be kind to him. And I think anyone who did not like or understand the need for Sam to go away would resent Frodo like this. I feel like Sam must have told Rosie the whole story, and the extent of Frodo’s obvious wounds as well as the incredible importance of their quest must have registered with Rosie. The fact that Frodo and Sam briefly lived with the Cottons after returning, and Frodo was writing his book, and was briefly ill during his stay there, means there’s a chance Rosie noticed his wounds, and maybe even read some of his writings out of curiosity as to what happened. Either way, I think it’s most likely that Rosie did understand.
@@FreejackVesa Sam was so utterly changed and traumatized by what he went through that I highly doubt his marriage to Rosie could've been as successful as it was if she didn't understand what happened to him, at least to some extent. There's also a lot of proof that she was fond of Frodo. It is said there wasn't a hobbit in the Shire looked after with as much care as Frodo was given after Sam and Rosie moved into Bag End; it's most likely the care was provided by both of them, especially since Frodo was often ill in their house. Seeing how sick Frodo was must have caused Rosie to understand on some level that he and Sam went through something terrible. Also, she and Sam are said to have been close since childhood, so I feel like she would want to understand and know about an event that affected him so deeply. The fact that her eyes were described as “shining” when Frodo briefly mentioned Sam’s fame in Gondor indicates she was very interested in learning what happened. Plus she let Frodo name Elanor, and then named her first son after Frodo. One could argue "the Shire patriarchy meant she had to name her kids whatever Sam wanted them to be named," but there isn’t much proof that the Shire is actually like that, and even so, Sam definitely isn't like that. He's just not the type to be a controlling, oppressing husband; it’s against his very nature. He must’ve let Rosie have a say in things, and ensure she agreed with those names for the children who were hers, as much as they were his. And she must’ve understood his bond with Frodo and what they went through, and cared for Frodo in her own way, since she did agree. She even sought Frodo's own ideas of what to name her firstborn; that to me hints that she and Frodo became real friends. I think Sam says "Well, I'm back" as a somber acknowledgment that he has returned without Frodo, as he's still in shock that Frodo is gone, and needs time to process it, and Rosie offers him compassion and comfort by helping him sit down and putting their daughter in his lap, reminding him of what he still has, despite his loss.
@@12classics39 respectfully, I think some of your conclusions are transposing some of our cultural mores to Hobbit/Shire culture. I personally dont think there is really any evidence in any of Tolkien's work that suggest that "Shire patriarchy meant she had to name her kid whatever Sam wanted them to be named". It is noted in the text that it is Hobbit tradition to name girls after flowers. I don't really think we have enough information on Rosie's character and the relationship between Sam and Rosie to interpret in depth. I do agree that Rosie understood the bond between Frodo and Sam. Considering the time period that Tolkien lived, English rural tradition, and the text of LoTR, Silmarillion, the Hobbit, and "Tolkeins Letters", the relationship between Sam and Frodo is both one of deep friendship but also a relationship, at least originally, defined by their class status. The Bagginses, especially Bilbo and Frodo, were considered wealthy "country gentleman" amongst Hobbits. That is why Sam would always refer to Frodo as "Mr. Frodo" and "sir" - Sam was in many ways a servant/footman to Frodo. He was his employee as well, tending to his garden. In fact, Sam's father "Gaffer" Hamfast Gamgee was employed by Bilbo as a gardener/caretaker, so the Gamgees service to the Bagginses was a generational position. This is much like how wealth English landowners of the past had "servants" which would often pass from parent to child. To our modern sensibilities this seems archaic, and it is to a certain degree, but also one might consider that the position of a caretaker or servant meant living a life of relative ease and "luxury" compared to the alternative, which would be something like a laborer who had no ownership of land themselves. All that being said, my personal opinion is that Rosie also thought similar to this - viewing Frodo as a kind, wealthy gentle-hobbit from a distinguished family and being very well educated for a Hobbit. I do appreciate your perspective though, even though I may disagree on some details!
Somehow, Sam returned.
I wish Tolkien would have written a looooooooong epilogue telling the lives of everyone in details because I don't want it to end.
He did in 1951 but mostly about his relationship with daughter Eleanor.
So say all who've enjoyed such books, but that is not for them to decide...
I will continue to state that Sean was robbed of a well-deserved Oscar for his portrayal of Sam.
I totally agree! I loved him so much!
Yeah Sean Bean was great
@@Stat1onary he's talking about Sean Astin who played Samwise.
@@MsMaryLS no U misunderstand Sean Bean was great 👍🏿
@@Stat1onary They ALL were.
I think ending it with Sam’s domestic bliss but the slight bittersweet note of the call of the sea would have been absolutely perfect.
No. The people who disagreed with Tolkien were right: "everything was put back as it should be" is the proper ending for an Epic. Putting Sam's later life in an appendix enhances the fiction that the Red Book of Westmarch is real history.
No.
@@RonJohn63yeah it is real history LOL
The ending of LotR is bitter with a slight aftertaste of sweet. I'm guessing the detractors of the epilogue thought including it would render it rather mawkish.
I agree it would have rounded the story nicely.
I listened to a study on LOTR years ago. It suggested that the true hero wasn’t Frodo but Sam. Sam who was the loyal servant. Sam, who stayed by Frodo’s side, who understood where Frodo went at the falls. The Sam who conquered Shelob. Sam, who was ring bearer for a short time but it did not overpower his mind. Sam, who stood behind Frodo but allowed him to be the hero. Sam was blessed in the end.
I think you are correct. Tolkien saw Sam as one of the soldiers of the First World War. An unsung hero.
Sam was the unselfish brave true hero. Frodo could never have done it without Sam.
Sam is the only one to wear the ring but never claim it as his own. He was also strong enough to wear it but willingly surrender it to another, like Bilbo.
Yes. Samwise the Brave!
I agree
Yes, I regret that Tolkien was bullied into not including it. His instincts were solid throughout, and he should have been allowed to follow them all the way to the end. Thanks for sharing this ending, which I did not know existed.
I agree. It was a beautiful epilogue!! I do like the current one, but I think it should have been done like the Hobbit, there are two versions of Return of the King so people can get their favorite epilogue ... I would get both myself, lol.
Absolutely, I do believe the inner circle were just a bunch of philistines. They robbed us all of something unique, I think.
I think "bullied" is assuming a lot. He asked his peers for their opinions, he took their advice, but later regretted it. That's not bullying
Hmmm. I don’t believe so. I think he listened to the polite criticism, thought about it and then agreed. He doesn’t strike me as one that could be pushed into something he didn’t want.
I think he made the ending of his own volition, not being bullied or allowed. He may have second guessed it. I wouldn't switch a word of a masterpiece.
I'm 78,and have been reading the Lord of the Rings since I started high school. At university, I participated in groups reading LOTR and squabbling over the pronunciation of Elvish and of the names of the characters. Great fun!. I loved the movies, too. I like the ending as is, but I sure would enjoy Tolkien's preferred ending., too! LOTR has had such a huge influence on my life to this day.
That's sweet and strangely soothing to read. The past couple of years, I (going on to be 62) have found support and consolation in Tolkien's awe-(and love)-inspiring creation, which I had enjoyed when I was sixteen, seventeen (reading TH and TLotR), and then had moved past of. But then I finally got down to read *The Silmarillion* (bought some forty years earlier), and I got to rewatch Peter Jackson's trilogy quite a couple of times in the past few years, and, well...
I think I could call myself a well-read person (being thankful that my scope is not primarily anglosaxon (at all -- 80% of what I read is not. Magnificent things have come out of Britain and Ireland and North America (and India and Australia aso), but beyond that there's a LOT more to be found out there still) and that I was able to master five languages) -- and I don't think TLotR is the best novel ever written. Still, I will say the whole of Tolkien's lore and mythology and fairytales and stories and poetry and epic is something I have come to love deeply. I remember our professor of English literature (a T.S. Eliot and W.H. Auden scholar) at university in the eighties being more than a trifle condescending about the work of his late colleague. I have come to think he was wrong there. Not least because of Robert's videos here, I have got the sense that Tolkien is a lot profounder than I thought at the time.
So, not the best writer ever. But still an admirable, very enjoyable and pretty darn good one -- even wise, sort of, even if I am not, as he was in a way, stuck in the vision of nineteenth century English countryside life as the epitome of human bliss on this Earth.
(And I neither would have minded TLotR ending with the excluded epilogue, at all.)
@@vissersvet You didn’t include a few pieces of critical information! First and foremost, what (in your opinion) IS the best novel ever written? Not that you’re right-or wrong-but I’m sure the answer will be interesting.
That said, I’ve found perspective is generally a creation of context and experience. As you’re not from one of the native English speaking countries (right?) might I ask what your native country and language is? Certainly not to criticize you in any way! I ask to better understand your perspective and your version of inherent biases (we all have them-Americans have their versions, British have theirs, Aussies have theirs, and so on (now the Canadians are gonna be mad at me!)). I’m actually envious of your mastery of five languages! I know English extremely well but have had great difficulty learning other languages. Not for want of trying. Perhaps because that “space” was used in the study of music and computer languages but that’s just speculation.
I love the books. I have the books, in hardback including the anniversary edition. But the movies were at travesty. Don't understand how anyone who liked the books could like the movies
@@LKMNOP I feel the same way about the Hobbit movies. But I thought the LOTR treatment was quite decent. I objected to the omissions, and had some different opinions than Jackson about this or that but on the whole I thought it was a respectable interpretation-and that’s all a movie is, an interpretation-of the true story, Tolkien’s words. But as with all things in life, opinions will vary-and that’s fine. I’m baffled by people who start to read LOTR then put it aside saying it is “too wordy” or “boring” but there too, people have to have the right to feel as they do. [of course, in this case they are just wrong but I’m not gonna tell them that! 😂]
@@LKMNOP mostly it was the dialogue that ruined the movies for me - it was so jarringly modern and cliched that it ruined the sense of immersion that I needed to allow me to allow for the [arguably necessary] changes to the narrative. Though the Grey Company will never not fill me with horror.
I always wanted to name my daughter Elanor when I read the books as a teen. So my 1stborn is Eleanor (spelled different) and my 2nd is Samantha (Sam) so now I feel like I have my kids named after LOTR characters ☺️
Carry on
My oldest daughter is named Lorien Galadriel! She's 44 years old. I picked her name out when I was a 13 year old boy. She asked about her name and I told her that her first name was the most beautiful place and that her second name was the best person.
I read her several poems from LOTR about Lorien and Galadriel.
That is perfect 😍
@@elessartelcontar9415 that is so beautiful!! I love that!!
My 2 dogs are Pippin and Eowyn
Writers - and, perhaps more importantly, editors - often say that one of the most important principles of good writing is to avoid explaining, or even showing, too much. I once heard a renowned storyteller, who was taking questions from an audience, address one that asked how he constructed such a rich, vivid, lifelike world with his words. He responded that a crucial principle, one that he constantly reminded himself of, was that no words of his, no matter how detailed or artful, could ever hope to create a world so lifelike and rich as the one his listeners’ or readers’ imaginations could create in their heads. In other words, he needed to remember that there was always a point at which his best tactic was to hold his tongue, and get out of the way of his audience’s own work in filling out, in rendering whole and real, the world that he had suggested.
So, it could be that here Tolkien heeded the advice of friends and colleagues, that the more evocative ending would be one in which he did not tell everything that was in his head, about his characters’ destinies, but left his readers to imagine what was to be with all of them.
Absolutely. As an editor of mine once said, “Always leave them hungry for more.”
Yes. I most definitely agree with this.
Editing is certainly a critical part of writing. But let’s extend your premise just a little bit. What if the Epilogue was included. What, then, happened with the North kingdom at Fornost? Who knows. When did Círdan finally sail into the West? Dunno. As men proliferated did Hobbits still go to Bree? Who can say? What happened to Orthanc? Ask Aragorn! In other words there are so many unanswered questions one can think of-those are just off the top of my head. Sam was our ambassador on the journey so bringing closure to *his* story (and only his) has special significance and satisfaction even if the reader doesn’t quite know why. It is, of course, because the reader unknowingly identified with Sam. This was by design, albeit subtle and with a light touch. That’s why we didn’t grieve Frodo’s loss of the Shire, we grieved Sam’s loss of Frodo! The epilogue showed Sam healed of his loss… ending with a note of the wild unknown. How Tolkien!
@@joerosenman3480 Perceptive and well said. What is amazing to me is that this was only Tolkein’s second novel and a - to me - astounding improvement over the first. The Hobbit is fun but not deep and way too long. I know how much longer LOTR took to create, but lots if people take a long time to write a BAD book. LOTR’s characters, depth, construction, and complexity have us talking about it still.
The call of the sea...he was briefly the ring bearer, he had a place across the sea. I imagine him finally reuniting with Frodo.
I think maybe even Bilbo as aging doesn't happen normally over there. A final réunion and some time spent together before the Hobbits eventually go the way of Men (to which Hobbits belong as far as souls are concerned). It normally feels more likely that Bilbo already passed even over there but it's just my headcanon
I think in the appendices and other writings Sam eventually sails into the West to the Undying Lands, as did Legolas and Gimli (who as elf-friend was allowed to also sail into the West. Eventually when the last elves chose to leave middle Earth, Cirdan the Shipwright went with them.
Unfortunately sailing into the West is simply the acceptance of death for mortals. The Undying Lands are not undying because of the lands, but because of those who inhabit them.
In fact, mortals that travel to these lands often age faster than in the east. It’s likely that Frodo did not live more than a few months after his crossing.
I feel like Tolkien was implying that, when he decided to have Sam sail from the Havens in old age and wrote it that way. Tolkien clearly wanted to have all loose ends wrapped up, and thus I highly doubt that he intended for Sam to sail West and find nothing but a gravestone waiting for him. He would never give a character that meant so much to him such a bleak ending. Without spelling it out, he’s telling us with a sort of “wink-wink” that Frodo lived long enough in the West to greet Sam and they saw each other again.
This is just my idea - Sam hears the sound of the sea; it's letting him know that one day, he too will 'go west' into whatever eternity awaits faithful hobbits.
I will never understand the collective renouncement of that sweet little epilogue by Tolkien’s peers. To call it “harmless” would do it injustice; it sounds sweet, and a beautiful, everyday life-filled ending to a tale of love, written with love.
I believe his peers were mostly his own children and publisher.
@@FreejackVesa C.S. Lewis would disagree, along with a clutch of other writers of offshoot genres
@@rushnafwadud I didn't say all. And the hobbit and lord of the rings started out as stories he told his children. Tom Bombadil was based on one of his kids dolls. And then he would continue to send new writings to his kids for feedback, even as they were stationed overseas during the war. Yes, his editor and the Inklings provided input - but his work had always been closely tied to his children. I'm not saying that they were for sure the ones that were against the epilogue, they were integral to the story of how these books were written though.
@@FreejackVesa I totally see your point now. That’s a very fair assessment. Pleasure
@@FreejackVesa to reassess though, I hope you understand the “peers” I’m concerned about.
I didn't mind "The Grey Havens" as I originally read it. Although, I have to admit, I didn't appreciate it so much until I got a bit older. In retrospect, it seems like a good end to a story. The ones you love so much leave us, but life and new things go on. New loves, of both friend and family, come along and are worthy of our immediate attention; just like old loved friends and family did before. We remember what was and hopefully recognize what is.
And if we're really lucky, maybe we see it all again someplace where it never ends again.
That was beautifully put
I'm always baffled that nobody bothers to tell the Ents of the Mirkwoodsl that there are Ents just outside the Shire.
❤️👍
I have always accepted that the Grey Havens was where the Third Age of Middle Earth, along with all the Little Peoples, went to sail away, to "a far green country under a swift sunrise", to die to their lifetime's world, leaving the new Fourth Age to Men, the mortals.
@@thomasblanchard6778 through the ages the longevity of every race seems to wane to a shorter life span. The early humans lived a few centuries as could Hobbits and dwarves to almost an eon at 800 yrs old, after the destruction of the simarils the elf's too showed signs that they had lost their own ageless qualities.
If the Epilogue had been included from the beginning we would all have loved it and it wouldn't have destroyed anything. And if someone had said to us now, no let's take it out it has no place in the ending we'd all have thought that person lost their marbles.
1000 percent. This happens with all kinds of media.
Truth.
I get the feeling the whole epilogue about Sam and his family sound like Tolkien himself
He entrusts his offspring with his writings, just like sam with his daughter, and after all the adventures Sam and Tolkien had they were happy to be back in home and hearth
I totally agree that the epilogue should be thought of as canon but works better as an afterthought rather than a part of the main story. It deepens the perfect “I’m back” ending that we do have. My favorite detail in the epilogue is how Sam seems to have special psychic/intuitive connections with both Rosie and Frodo. On the very day that Frodo and Sam’s quest was achieved, Rosie could somehow feel that Sam was going to come home. And even with a whole Sea between them, Sam still can sense something that reminds him of Frodo, even at the warmth of his doorstep. Very beautiful. But there will never be a more perfect, more simultaneously heartwarming and heartbreaking closing line in the history of literature than “Well, I’m back.”
For me the call of the sea wasn't the call of Frodo but the same call of the seed that Frodo felt due to his bearing the ring. Since Sam had bored the ring he would feel that same call to the sea.
I’m happy to be part of a community that wonders. I like this video installment. Lucky for us so much of Tolkien’s writings and papers have been published.
@@brandonmunsen6035 ...which was later published...by his son 🤨
@@MagusMarquillin So many people have a mean nature. I was a little surprised to see it here, though. (Not you, it is sometimes hard to tell from just the written word in a forum like this)
I wish the epilogue would have been included 😢.
I always felt like the ending chapter (The Grey Havens) was a bit incomplete!
Thank you for this video In Deep Geek.
Yours sincerely, Nate.
No way I was busy watching The Fellowship of the Ring and then I see this notification
I absolutely love LoTR, and I love it even more thanks to videos like this!
Thank you for your efforts Robert.
I completely agree that the ending to the main series was what it needed to be. But I dunno, something the distant sound of the ocean calling Sam really hit different. I go inland for a week and already my brain is like "but where's the water..?"
Whatever ending Tolkien comes up with creates new angles to explore and new questions to answer. With his writing style, no story stops completely, it goes on like water gathering for a while then finding a new way.
When I went to Boulder, Colorado in the 1980s, I walked out of my hotel and saw the Rockies to my right. Said, "Nice mountains, but it needs an ocean." My three older cousins, with whom I had grown up, all joined the Air Force in the late 1960s and 70s. Hearing the call of the ocean, I joined the Navy. 50 years later, I sail on Tampa Bay and hope to make the crossing to the Bahamas.
I love how the sound of the ocean calling is a universal signal to accept your death (or end of time if immortal) in the East, and sail West.
@@EvanACMedia not death, more like the end of one chapter of your life and the beginning of another.
The story of Aragorn and Arwen ending is included in the appendices and it has dialogue and everything. I think they could've added that chapter as an appendix as well.
You do great work. I thoroughly enjoy your videos.
I would have deeply appreciated the option of reading this epilog. For all too often we have these stories where extraordinary people leave ordinary lives to do extraordinary things, and then return to their ordinary lives. All too often these characters are portrayed as having difficulty adjusting, or not being able to adjust at all to their former lives. Sam, although forever changed by his experiences, does find a new equilibrium and leads an ordinary life with extraordinary character. it is an example of the successful hero returning to lead a productive life and not becoming a burden upon those who love him. It is a story all too often not told, and one that was tragically missing from the post-World war II narratives of the men who survived but were marred and scarred for life. Perhaps this is the reason Tolkien's circle of friends and advisors did not want this epilog included in the main story. The tale of what comes after the adventure is often bitter-sweet. It is, however, a part of the tale, and one all too often not told.
"One must end somewhere, I suppose." Agreed, although when I finished the last of the trilogy I really did not want it to end. 🤔
Anyway, many thanks because I didn't know about the epilogue. Merry Christmas! 🎅
Lord of the Rings shall never "end," so long as there are fans who continue the fight for beauty and against evil.
Thanks for a great year of reflection and analysis!
Thank you!
I think that, if Tolkien had published this epilogue, then he would have wanted to write a story about how Eleanor passed the book on to the next person. So, one hast to end a book somewhere.
This video is most welcome because it made me realize I actually have this epilogue (which I didn't know existed) in one of the two HoME books I have thrifted, and wonderful timing, I can insert it in when I finally reread the whole story next year. This is so exciting - even though it's a few pages, it feels as if JRRT came back with an entire sequel to read! Happy Yule!
_Only hitch is there's two separate versions of it. I'll have to figure out which one counts like much of the unfinished tales._
Keep the second version for the next time you reread it.
@@eljanrimsa5843 Thanks - it stands to reason that it'd be more refined as he aimed for publishing. I'll read that one as the capstone - but naturally I'll read the other before long also, and I expect there will be things I like about it that aren't in the second, which schisms the story in a way, like the story of Saruman dealing with the Ringwraiths. Pardon this nit picking, it's still great we can read these at all.
For me, the real ending to the book is Frodo's beautiful blessing and prophecy over Sam on their way to the Grey Havens.
"Do not be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You will have to be one and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do....But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see. Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on."
Whether you ship Frodo and Sam or not (and of course you don’t have to), this whole speech of Frodo’s reminds me so much of Jack’s dying speech in Titanic as he encourages Rose to live a full life without him, including having children with someone else. Two emotionally powerful scenes, if nothing else.
I like that the epilogue was published by Tolkiens son among the letters and other works. you never want to drag on the story and have it, as Bilbo would say, Like butter scrapped over to much bread.. The ending was perfect.
Scraped*
S-capped
Scorped*
Oh, for pity's sake! Stop it.
Scuppled*
Couldn't agree more, Robert. It's wonderful that we get this glimpse, but also great that we get to keep the ending as it is, with all the elegance and weight of the story packed into three little words from our hero, Sam.
Thank you Robert! :-) I love this video I got chills when you were reading out the order of events and then the last few lines of the epilogue! :-) I’m blind and have not yet found an audio copy of the 12 volume history of middle earth so it is amazing to know that this epilogue exists and it is published in volume nine of the history. I shall petition Audible that the 12 volume history to be recorded if it isn’t already. I’m so glad you did this video and you did a great job, but the fan of Tolkien that I am and the author that I am really wants to read the epilogue in full as it was written. :-)
I'm grateful you shared the epilogue with us, and I regret it wasn't included as part of the appendix. At least, I find that it fulfills a longing in my heart to get a taste of Sam's history afterward. The indication of a psychic or spiritual link between Sam and his dear Rosie is meaningful, as is the resolution of Sam's yearning for Elves in his own enchanting daughter. No less meaningful is the call of the Sea, and the promise that he will see his beloved Frodo again. I am happy to know these resolutions.
the only detail that **wasn't** in the appendix was Sam giving the book to Elanor.
@@tsm688yes, that detail is in Appendix B.
I love this extra bit, its so nice to have more of a great masterpiece
Man, I love your take on Tolkiens thoughts and ideas..
Every time I watch one of you'r videos, I can't help but to just sit and nod in agreement..
Love your work, keep it up..❤
Me too! Always! ❤😊
❤
The appendices feels right to me. I love the confirmation that due to his part, the sea calls to Sam, just as it did to those before him.
It also reaffirms the power of his connection with Frodo, as he is drawn back to Frodo.
In Tolkien's own foreword to the second edition of LotR, he notes that 'the book is too short.' I wonder if this was a reference to the excluded epilogue?
In my view the ending as it stands is fine. It concludes Sam's journey in the War of the Ring; anything else would be another story. The saying "Always leave them wanting more" comes to mind.
As always, Robert, thank-you for your hard work in making these videos and sharing your knowledge and insight with your viewers. I look forward to the next one, but in the meantime I wish you and yours a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year!
I can only give a heartfelt thank you for one of the best stories (all his works) I've ever read (& read &read etc.) I'll never tire of Middle Earth. ❤
Fantastic Video, In Deep Geek.
We appreciate all the effort and of course, Tolkien deserves it.
;)
Wait a minute. Sam's wife Rosie had eight children in a span of sixteen years? And then five more? She's the real hero of the Lord of the Rings.
Nah standard humans do that sort of thing regularly.
Oh! I just died laughing when reading this! How true!
What can be said, our boy Samwise sows seeds
Anyone who willingly endures childbirth 13 times in her life is a true heroine.
I was crying so hard at the end of Return of the King the first 10 or 15 times I read the trilogy, that an epilogue would not have made a difference. I've read the appendices too, and cried over Aragorn and Arwen's tale. I've read the trilogy so many, many times; I read my paperback set literally to pieces, and my hardback set isn't looking to good. Perhaps the epilogue was best left off, now I consider. The published ending forced me to read the appendices, because I had to know more. I had to know all of it. The epilogue, as you've so beautifully read it, really does give it an ending that seems final, whereas the actual ending is more of an invitation to explore. I hope I'm saying all this right, LotR is a hard history to quantify. But if I read it today, I'm pretty sure I would cry at the end. There is something so intrinsically hobbit about Sam saying, "Well, I'm home," as he takes up Elinor, and it squeezes my heart with love and pain.
JRR Tolkien was a rare genius who created a story that feels like a real history.
I don't remember where I read it, when I was in high school, way back in the early 70s, but there is more to the epilogue. When their children are grown, and Rosie dies, Samleaves the book with his daughter, and takes an Elven ship to the West, because he also, was once a ringbearer.
I have read this epilogue and felt everything nicely tied up in the end. Loved the story especially because of the epilogue.
It's not difficult to see the conundrum of whether to include the Epilogue or not at the time. What he did include was sufficient, and an addition of a formal epilogue in that masterpiece could have been anti-climatic at that prefect conclusion of "Well, I'm back", which was such a Sam thing to say.
Since then, or at least at present times, I'd think most would love to have had the Epilogue published. If not at the end, then as a novelette perhaps that was published separately, a stand alone addendum. Christopher deserves all the praise extended to him for his incredible editing and finishing of his Fathers mountains of draft and notes, right down to scribbles in the margin of books or on a scrap of paper.
His arduous accomplishments were a true academic achievement that Christopher's Father would surely praise and admire.
Like you, Robert I think the ending we were left with was the best one. And yet I can appreciate that epilogue too. I might have liked it in the appendices.
“Well, I’m back.” Never felt finished to me. Always feels like an anticlimactic kick in the stomach, a sudden discarding of a world and dear friends. Like when you learn of the unexpected death of a loved one. Hard to breathe. Every time I read LOTR, I have a period of mourning when finished, not a joy of completion. The epilogue would have been MUCH appreciated. Thank you for this video, this heals many teenage wounds. ❤
The "I'm back" is supposed to bring the reader back to the real world... It is like the breaking of a fantastic dream.
I'm happy how it actually turned out, wherein we, the readers of Tolkien, got both the ending and the epilogue.
And the appendices ofcourse. It's nice to have an ending after the ending.
When the credits rolls it's kind of a treat to peel back the curtain and see one last glimpse.
To actually know what finally happened to all the characters, an ending for the characters, not just the tale itself.
I do like the epilogue, how it hints that Elanor will carry on a family love for elves like Sam but also a glimpse that Sam will eventually go to the sea.
@@Cosper79 such emphasis is put on the importance of geneology and heritage in shaping a hobbit’s character (Bilbo and Frodo sought adventure because of their Took roots, for example) that I often wonder about Sam’s heritage. He is not related to the Tooks, and his father clearly has no urge to meet Elves, but we are given zero information about his mother, except her name, Bell Goodchild. Perhaps she once met Elves passing through the Shire but kept it secret since she thought nobody would believe her, and that connection with Elves passed on to her son and granddaughter.
I am 80 tears old. From my youth, I have read the entire series several times with enormous pleasure every time. i am currently in the middle of The Fellowship right now. After reading of the eventual death of King Aragorn, and the sorrowful wandering in the wild of Arwen, I think the tale sounds complete to me. But that's just me.
I should very much like to have had this epilogue included. Learning about it today, I grieve that it shouldn't be in the published books. I haven't reached volume 9 of the History of Middle Earth, not even close, but now Imma go look for this epilogue as soon as possible.
How lovely is this prologue; how nicely does it round some unfortunate sharp edges. How badly have I needed this completion, in particular, to Sam's story and character arc. How much have I been missing it, even without knowing it before today.
Somehow it always felt that Sam's chapter on the Red Book had been missing. Alas! that Tolkien should have listened to this advise, mistaken in spite of how well intentioned, as opposed to what his heart so desperatly had been trying to tell him.
Let this be a reminder for me, one I greatly have been needing: advise on what to cut out of a story is doubtlessly worth pondering; still the heart may know better than a couple dozen minds every now and then.
I wonder might he have been convinced to put it in the appendices instead?
I am fine with the book ending, but am happy knowing the epilogue details and am glad it is out there.
Thanks for sharing these deeply satisfying clues to how the story never ends
I never knew there was an epilogue beyond the appendices and I didn't find THEM for many years after my first reading. I always adored the ending, as written. It left me filled with hope for Sam and Rosie's future, without having to wonder what it would be. The age of peace had come and they, at least, would bear fruit before the next... 🤷♂
Thanks so much for sharing it.
Thanks!
i felt so empty that the story was over and would have consumed any additonal words by Mr Tolkein. That said i understand why it was left out, and believe it was probably for the best. I enjoy your take and reading of it. thank you and Merry Xmas DG
Great video! I love the idea of the epilogue. Even though it’s not in LOTR it feels canonical.
When it comes to LOTR and other great works, I always want more. It is not a logical want. Too much can spoil a story - but i still want.
I wants precious, l wants!
I’m the same 😢
I wants precious, l wants!
I’m the same 😢
Thank you for this, for reading the final verse so eloquently. I feel a little more complete having heard it. Knowing the story of LotR, mainly through the BBC radio play (not having seen the movies) and reading the novels only once, this epilogue finishes off the story, for me. However...however, you quietly glad of not having this epilogue included made me think of the ending of the radio play and Sam's "I'm back" does, indeed, finish that tale nicely. But as I have said, I am familiar with the story as told in the radio plays, and I listen to it probably once a year, and now having that little bit more of the story makes me realise I did want more. The story of the ring was not complete until Sam crosses the Sundering Sea and therefore, the LotR is not complete while Sam still lives in the Shire. The epilogue also tells us there are no true endings; there's only a continuation of life. As the song tells us, life (the road) goes ever on.
I'm a sucker for long drawn out endings. I can probably handle another after this new old one. This inquisitive elf-touched daughter of The Gardner seems to me the perfect person to find a definitive answer to what happened to the Entwives.
Hi @exharkhun5605. I always wondered why Pippin and Merry didn't wonder (& suggest to Treebeard) whether the trees that 'come alive' in the forest in Buckland were the lost Entwives. They were lost to a land where they tilled the earth, I think (?), which sounds very Shire-like to me.
@@rhusradicans2122 I know, it seems so obvious. Especially since Merry and Pippin have already travelled through so many types of true wilderness that the contrast should be obvious to them.
I've made that connection with the Shire myself when I was young. It may have been the first thing I ever worked out on my own and it turned out to be a dud. 😁
I seem to remember from one of the many great Tolkien lore channels I follow that the probable place of the Entwives' cultivated lands were what's now called the Brown Lands, just above the Dead Marshes. These lands were destroyed by Sauron in one of the many wars. I think the channel in question implied that the Entwives were all killed back then.
My personal thought is that the Brown Lands border the Anduin River and the original Hobbits lived between the Misty Mountains and the Anduin. A few of the Entwives may have gone the same way, maybe via Lorien or first up into Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood) and ending up in or near the Shire eventually.
@@exharkhun5605 Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Regardless of where they ended up, they were lost - and so no more Entings. So sad!
YUCK
I would like to see a special edition of Return of the King that includes the epilogue. Not to replace the original final work but as a limited edition type of thing.
Nice presentation. Thank you. The epilogue was there for our eventual enjoyment. But without ever knowing about it I loved the world Tolkien created and shared. Now knowing his thoughts on Samwise's homelife and a few thoughts on it, well, it's lovely.
This is such a beautiful and wholesome epilogue.
I would have preferred it be present in the main book, if for no other reason because Professor Tolkien apparently wanted it read that way, until the pressure from others was too great and he was compelled to change it.
remember the book was basically an essay on fictional languages until a few good editors talked to him. Not all editing is bad.
"one must stop somewhere"
Oh, if only contemporary media franchises would figure this out.
Amen.
Thank you.I always thought he left Sam and the Shire very abruptly. Now I see that he didn't.
I think that, the Lord of the Rings was an epic tale and the book and the movie both exemplified that epic tale in their own ways. In the end, it felt as if so many years had passed (as they had, truly) that in the end, at the conclusion, it felt as though everything was old but also new, the return was almost odd. Home, but... somehow not.
A long journey ends and you find yourself back at the beginning. Sometimes you sit, and look around yourself and the world feels strange. Home is still home, or course, but somehow it feels off. You stare through your old windows and walk down your old streets but theyre different. Theyre different because you are different. Home is not the same place you left, it cant be, because you are not the same as when you left. Its a strange feeling but also a new beginning, like learning how to live your old life again. Sometimes, what happened on your journey can barely be explained to those you left at home and you have changed so much that you might be unrecognizable. That odd feeling, the quiet discomfort, its somehow sad, but also somehow new and exciting.
I think in the end, an epilogue wasnt needed. The story had been told, an age defined. The world and all that were in it had changed. Trying to explain what came after wasnt needed to conclude the story. I think the appendices were wonderful, and it was good to find what happened later but it wasnt necessary for the Lord Of The Rings. That story was complete, so complete that any epilogue would have only taken away from what had already happened.
I would have loved to have this epilogue included in the appendices section of the Return of the King!
Just wanted to say, love your Lord of the rings videos. Look forward to every single upload. ❤
My fondness, nay, love for these books took hold at the age of 13. I was saddened by the ending, not for how it ended but that it was in fact the end of the story. I scoured the appendices and gleaned as much information as I could. I made of stories in my own head. And I've read the trilogy nearly ever year from then until now. (There was a lapse during my pregnancy and birth of my own little Hobbit.) Thank you for this episode. It was quite informative and your narration is very pleasant to the ears.
The story as we have it ends on a carefully composed blend of melancholy and contentment. We couldn't have had that with the epilogue included, so I think it was right to leave it out, and leave the discoveries about Sam's future (along with the others') to the appendices.
My crying! This is lovely!
I wish he'd ignored the nay-sayers and included this. It's a perfect ending to the tale.
Part of the magic of these books is that many things are hinted at, but never quite realised. That laconic "I am back" is quite perfect IMHO. Well, I am a person, who tends to struggle with that lengthy prologue, "Concerning Hobbits".
I think the ending we have, with Sam's “Well, I am back”, is perfect. However, an epilogue isn't really a new ending, it's an afterword or supplement, of what happened after a book ends, not the end in itself. I would have been quite happy if Tolkien had included it in the published version myself, bearing that in mind
Great video, I never knew about this ending before. I’d of liked to of seen it included, even if not as an official chapter even if it was in the appendices I think it’d of been a nice touch.
Perfect! Just at the right time for me to watch while I fall asleep!
Love your work, Robert!
I love this epilogue, which I was previously unaware of, but I, like you, think the ending should stand as published.
In passing, I would say that the images you use from the Peter Jackson production reminded me of my disappointment that he chose not to include "The Scouring of the Shire", no matter how good his reasons were for doing so. Tolkien's work was as close to perfection as any human endeavour can be, and should remain unaltered.
In agreement of leaving the epilog out, one must understand that all (written) stories must end at some point. What happened after Gandalf and Frodo sailed West? Sam did. Then what after Sam? Elanor. What about Her children? Grandchildren .... and so on.
I started reading "Fellowship of the Ring" around 1960. I do love the book, the story, the characters and everything. I've read quite a bit of Mr. Tolkien's other works. So don't ever think I am not impressed and curious about other things. (Tom Bombadil for one.) But stories have to end.
I definitely wouldn't mind having it included, maybe as a addendum in full, because when I finished the last chapter, I didn't want to leave middle earth just yet, and I feel Tolkien didn't either.
Maybe Sams daughter would've embarked on her own quest to seek out some remnants of elves and expanded the story of the red book with her story as well.
According to the appendices, Sam handed over the Red Book to his daughter before departing (as family tradition held) for the Havens. She was formally a member of the royal court of Aragorn, so she (or her descendants) would have been able to know about the passing of Merry, Pippin, and other members of the Fellowship.
The stories in the Appendices take us out of the present of the story and removes us to place in the future where we can examine the past over a span of many decades as scholars. It allows a greater field of view than having Sam relate it to his daughter. It’s a good technique for covering the wider story, though it may lose the more personal touch.
A main theme of Tolkien is that every story is but a part of a greater story so in that sense every ending would've felt incomplete because "The Story" is still going on. But I feel that this was the right decision, as Frodo leaving for Valinor marks the end of the story of the War of the Ring and his (and in a sense Sam's) journey as a protagonist. Knowing that (for example) Gimli and Legolas left Middle Earth together is nice but it doesn't add anything thematically or to their characters
Literally just finished watching the extended edition of the trilogy and this pops up on my feed!
I think the published ending is just fine, and this addition would be better in its own short story.
I love you in deep geek. Very well done analysis of some of my favorite fantasy series. Merry Christmas and a Hallyday new year!
All good stories have a beginning and an end. While a good writer knows what happens before the beginning and after the end, that good writer knows to not include those things in the main story, but leave it for an extra for the few who want it.
I've heard it said it's like being invited to a party - arrive late, leave early.
And a whole goddamn appendices, and the Silmarillion, and the fall of Gondolin…ect ect
@@romankotas448 Exactly. Lot's of extras for those that want them.
The road goes ever on. Once you set foot upon it, you never know where it will end.
I think I might have liked to see that final ending in the appendix of the book. Tucked away where people could read it if they wanted, but not quite part of the full narrative.
I don't think much would of happened in the aftermath of LOTR, Tolkien ended it, and it's implied that the world was at peace forever after. That's how I see it.
This story could have gone on forever , Sean was more than amazing as samewise..he really should have gotten an Oscar. Thank you for this ❤❤❤
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I like your take at the end - the books end well on “I’m back” but I’m still going to consider this epilogue canon.
Great choice of topic, as usual. As many have already stated, I wouldn't change the ending at all. I'm personally glad the Epilogue was omitted.
The image at 10:21 made me laugh so hard 😂
I very much would loved to see that chapter
In the Elanor epilogue, Tolkien is in his inimitable way, expressing the joy, wonder and love of parenthood and parenting. That's a theme that isn't a large part of LOTR.
So, much as I like the chapter, I think IDG is right. Better that LOTR ends as it does and that those who are interested can discover it later; perhaps when they have themselves experienced parenthood.
So a big thank you to IDG for letting me know about the Elanor epilogue.
The end is the end. I first found the trilogy in the mid 60's at the age of 15, I didn't read the Hobbit for another 3 years. I'm hooked for life. 🙂I enjoyed your presentation.
Tolkien's choice was above criticism. The ending as published is quite satisfying; there are no major loose threads to be dealt with. I can't imagine any continutation that would add rather than detract from the story as it stands.
A few days ago I found your channel or it found me. Anyway, thank you for your work and your passion for lotr! I will continue watching. Special thanks for any video about Sam, the best character in the history of fantasy.
Tolkien anticipated the 'FAQ' form by many years, in a way-a fair bit of it is answering questions from Sam's children. Although it would have weakened the finish of the novel, I have often wished that he could have revised it into a stand-alone short story years later, when Allen & Unwin were asking him if he had anything new (he ended up giving them the unexpected Smith of Wootton Major). With Pauline Baynes illustrations (Aragorn and Arwen at the Brandywine Bridge greeting Sam and family, yes please?), the Epilogue could have been a much-loved part of the Tolkien mythos after all. I suspect that he had simply forgotten the discarded Epilogue as a publishable item by that time.
In the other draft of the epilogue in HOME9, if I recall correctly, he goes through the King's letter in more detail and they plan for Elanor to be a handmaid to Arwen, also very interesting.
I think it ended where it should have. Tolkien's imagination was so powerful, I can see why he'd want to keep going, especially when one realizes how much Tolkien loved Sam. I think the Epilogue is just Tolkien's way of saying, "and they lived happily ever after."
I've always enjoyed the Hobbit and the LOTR books. My mind though, I think would have liked to read further as to where everyone ended up.
One day, thought, my 8 yr old son kept telling my he was bored and it was too hot outside to play. So I handed him, my well worn copy of the Hobbit. I didn't hear complaints, and a week later he wanted to know if there was more. So I handed him LOTR. Not only was he hooked, he still reads it and when his own children were growing up he read it to them and then gave the books to read for themselves when they got a bit older. These are stories that will live forever, in our hearts and minds.