Tom represents something that Tolkien felt important. That when you are pure of heart, and have no desire for power, you can't be corrupted. Its also a way to show off some musical prose.
@@coachhannah2403 It wasn't really that. Tom was VERY helpful. He was just very long lived, very playful and was in the moment. He didn't think ahead. Thats very different from a godlike indifference to people.
Well, the fact is he HAD a lot of power. I'm not sure how that equates, but he learned the song for old man willow and wasnt afraid to use it. I suspect its more in line with Treebeard, there were spirits on middle earth long before Sauron, so the idea that Saurons ring and the power of the elves would have an effect is a little specious. At the same time he KNEW about the ring, and wanted to see it and try it on. I suspect Tolkien knew full well he'd be one of those characters that opeople could talk endlessly on what they are and represent. At the same same time, he seems content to be living in an area thats been getting geographically smaller 'in borders he has set for himself', oddly enough even right by the barrow wights, which you would think would be neighbours he could do without. I would suspect that like Gandalf he simply 'knows his place' in the scheme of things.
Tolkien invented Tom years before he wrote LOTR. Tom was not part of the Legendarium at the time, just a funny character he made up to entertain his kids. When he was writing LOTR, Tolkien did not really have his story worked out yet, so he brought Tom in (as he put it) as an adventure along the way. That's the simple real world reason Tom is in the book. As the book went on, Tolkien had to fit Tom into his mythos, but I think he put all he knew about Tom in the statements and speculations about him in LOTR itself. Tolkien admitted he did not know any more about him and, while he enjoyed Tom (enough to write several poems about him),Tom did not improve with philosophizing. As you mention, Tolkien was a Catholic, and Catholics are comfortable with mysteries.
Amen, great comment because at the same time, in literary criticism what the author intended or didn't intend is irrelevant once the story is finished. What Shakespeare may have meant by aspects of Merchant of Venice is irrelevant even if we found documentary that seemed to be from himself stating it. As Northrop Frye said, Matthew Arnolds view of what a matthew Arnold poem means counts no more than anybody elses. I think he was quite happy to have 'unexplained shit ' dotted along the way. I think he, or somebody, said that part HAD to be in there to show that the ring was NOT the most powerful thing in the world. It was 'concentrated evil' and there are always forces stronger than evil, ironically much like Tom they come in humourous form. Laughing at evil was always supposed to expunge it. I was just rereading The Silmarillion and there are stories in there that I think "it sure would be nice if somebody like Bombadil came along' because things get grim. And of course he WAS there somehwere. I've never really looked but I expect there must be a fan fiction site for Tolkien, that would make a good story.
Well, Tom has a symbolic meaning and actually fits the book's themes greatly. The purity and goodness of untouched nature, as compared to industrialisation and the works of man. Tom is ultimately the most modest and virtuous character in the novel, because he is one with Nature, the ring does not allure him. He has no ambitions, he just wishes to be what he is.
@@tj-co9go Well, as somebody who has spent a fair bit of time in nature there is little 'pure' and 'good' about it, but you are right, it just 'is'. Which is actually 'amoral'. Tom has the power to help, but wouldn't understand it and has no responsibility. Thats hardly 'virtue'. Thats kind of the point though, nature is amoral, as is Tom. Our struggles mean nothing to nature. But even though its likely Sauron would devastate everything, STILL Tom feels no 'moral imperative' to act. Despite even the Gods sending spirits over to help. As mentioned, there are lots of 'dark things' in the world, ungoliant was of the world, and nameless things 'gnaw' at the earth that the whole narrative of elves and rings and even gods and silmarils don't even enter into.
@@the318pop For the reasons I gave above, because he HAD to, it was written that way. It was written as a mythology, not a nursery story. There is no "now the moral of this story is.."
You remember the first editions and the first movies. You knew the dark under the stars when it was fun - when dark was the time to watch movies and read books before bed. Before the dark times. Before the Empire...!
There was actually much criticism of the movie adaptations or Peter Jackson's style and choices, especially in the second and third movies. I doubt leaving out Tom Bombadil was ever a serious topic, but just a standard joke. At least that's what it mostly was.
@@bfkc111I agree.👍 Definitely a lot worse decisions made in the trilogy than Tom Bombadil's absence. Especially the characterization of Faramir/Denethor, Frodo abandoning Sam, and Bilbo's absence at the Council of Elrond.
I started reading Tolkien in the late 60s. My impression has been that Tom and Goldberry were the embodiment of the Spirit of Nature, the sentience of the land itself, and the creatures that lived within it.
The positive aspect of silence from before there was the Song of the Ainur. Just like Ungolianth is the negative aspect and equally old. Well that's my explanation anyway. ^^
My own "head-canon" for the quandary that is Tom is as follows: Tom is Eru's first manifestation of his thought brought into existence. Eru had all these ideas about their creation swirling in his thoughts and decided to manifest one into being to explore the concept. An alpha prototype of what would come to be known as the Valar and Maiar. This is why Tom is "The Oldest" or "The First". I like to imagine the two of them conversing about all the possibilities of Eru's upcoming creation. Just the two of them in the Void bouncing ideas off each other. This is why the Ring has no power over Tom. That is who Tom is in my Adventures in Middle Earth Campaign and how I see them when I read Tolkien's Works. I feel that after Tom helped Eru he then decided he would like to spend some time and a lovely spot he helped to create.
Sri Bombadil, it could be declared: he wants for not a thing, reminding me of legendary Masters from the Eastern traditions, and thus gloriously impervious to the ring's lures. He is a rarity, with songs in his heart.💐
In the slightly more detailed timeline from the Unfinished Tales, the Witch King is in the Barrowdowns (stirring up the barrow-wights) at the same time the hobbits are in Tom Bombadil's house. So one explanation of Frodo wanting to sneak away was the Ring wanting to be taken to the Witch King, and ultimately Sauron. And Tom's house made a good hiding place for the hobbits, until the Witch King decided to move on. As a result of the barrow-wights, Merry ended up with the sword that helps to kill the Witch King.
We may not know what Tom Bombadil is. But we do know what he represents emotionally. Which is a free and natural state of innocence, innocence that is mature and experienced and strong, not the fragile innocence of childhood but a mature, experienced innocence that cannot be lost easily. And Goldberry has this too, which is why the two of them are so natural together.
Idea that formed itself while I was watching this video: If Tom is the genius loci of Arda’s life spirit, maybe the very reason the hobbits of the Shire were less corruptible than most of the Children of Ilúvitar was the fact that they had lived for some centuries that close to the center of Tom’s Mastery? Maybe they settled in that largely abandoned land as a crucial part of the designs of the Valar? And is that Tolkien’s conscious or unconscious concept, or just a slick little bit of retro-engineering?
When you discussed the ring wanting to leave Toms house it occurred to me that the ring knew it was in danger. Since Tom is the only being in the world who is not tempted by its power, Tom is the only one who could potentially destroy it.
I used to think Tom was something of an anti-Ungoliant. She was born from emptiness and chaos; he was born from the joyful life of Arda itself. Nowadays I tend to think that Tom’s purpose is to give us something to talk about endlessly. Ring a dong dillo!
I like to think of Tom as Tolkien himself in the fantasy land of LOTR. Either that or, while in a world full of good and evil, or things/beings riding the line of both, there is also pure evil, but then there is Tom Bombadil. Truly happy, in a world of sorrow.
I always took Goldberry's answer to emphasize the first word, not the second.... *"He* is." versus "He *is."* Frodo asks "Who is Tom?", and she gives him a verbal nod and says "That guy there (he) is (Tom)" as an answer. Not so much a deep existential statement like "I am", but more saying "Tom Bombadil is just that guy you see, nothing more, nothing less." A wink from the author that this character was a lark. A fun diversion, but with no deeper meaning beyond what you see on the surface.
Tom Bombadil appears to be the epic version of Tolkien's personification of his personal (boyish) love and joy for wild green places . I can see Tolkien all throughout his life wandering in the woods and hills and musing how grand it would have been to be the first person to ever see a place like this, to imagine, with boyish imagination that he was that first person to see it in all it's pristine glory and how much contentment he would have felt if it were so. In a way Tom Bombadil feels like a Peter Pan version of Professor Tolkien, the first living spirit in Arda so captivated and overjoyed by the life surrounding him that he never wanted anything more and never grew old.
I am so glad you said this because I can’t agree more. I’ve always felt pretty strongly that Tom is Tolkien personified in the story. He literally wrote himself into the story as a character, disguised as this mysterious being that doesn’t really fit into any of the well defined categories of beings in middle earth. I think a smoking gun clue is the detail that he existed, somehow, even before the Valar, Ea, and Iluvatar. Who other than Tolkien, the Creator of the creators and created, could this be?
@@DrillForAbsentee Uh, where did it say he was there before Iluvatar? I missed that. That is an interesting view, and quite possible, to the point of him being a fairly round sort of comic figure, but of course having a babe there to keep him company:) But if you are looking for archetypes the 'mischievous imp' is quite common in both nordic and eastern literature. Comic sidemen who are somehow above the fray occur fairly regularly enough. I had read though that Tolkien thought he was ESSENTIAL to the story, to show that some things were above the rings power. Tom certainly seems 'of the earth incarnate', and of course Saurons ring was MADE. Sauron 'made shit' and put his power into them. Tolkiens view has always been that the earth is sacred, the manufactured is profane. No being can 'make' something that can outmatch what is 'spiritually made'. If you remember there's a line in LOTR where they say that even if Sauron wins, there will be places that escape him. And on that spirit, while thats a neat view, it doesn't actually 'mean' much because that would be Tolkien 'manufacturing' a character to put into a story thats supposed to be 'spiritually made', if you understand that glibness.
@@mikearchibald744 Ok, I'm working from these quotes: "“Who is Tom Bombadil?” “He is,” said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling. Frodo looked at her questioningly. “He is, as you have seen him,” she said in answer to his look." Also, Tom calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn." You're right: I'm stating that he existed before everything else like that is a straight fact, when it's not. That's an interpretation (particularly driven by the "he is" descriptor."
@@DrillForAbsentee I got that, I just meant the idea that he was before Eru, which seems a stretch. That he was at least ONE of the first 'things' or 'beings' on the planet when the Vala first looked at. Except of course trees and rain could have come later, as all along the story claims things were differnet, for example there was no sun or moon at first. Sorry but I was thinking more of what I wrote and now I'm off track. There seems to be TWO kinds of power, one is the power that is put INTO things. Melkor becomes weaker because he's putting his power 'into stuff' and all the dark things around him. The other power is the power OF stuff. So Tom is the OPPOSITE 'movement' of that. Morgoth and Sauron put hteir power INTO things. Sauron is putting his power INTO the ring, I don't know exactly what that means, thats sort of something I'm trying to figure out. The OPPOSITE process is power of things going INTO something, which seems to be what Tom Bombadil is. Thats 'the earth' being concentrated into a thing, the opposite process of an evil being putting their power into an object. Sorry Im' off track here, I was reading articles on 'the power of things' and the symbolism of the talisman. Its not totally hobby as these questions are kind of germane to religion in general, not just fiction. Sorry for 'talking out loud' here on your thread. I think you are right about everything up to thinking he's older even that Eru. Eru doesn't get a lot of talk because people just 'assume' its god, when in fact its a creator, we are all 'creators', Tolkien is 'Eru', all myth makers are Eru. Myths are not jsut things 'outside you'. Anyway, just thinking out loud, sorry to go off on your thread, I do agree with you except that one part.
Tom Bombadil is more likely a nickname given to him, like when a child calls their favorite person a nickname that stays instead of their actual name. He is also very removed from the limited history the reader and the hobbits can gleam about the world around them. There is the Unseen world that cannot be seen by most beings that live in the physical world, Elves can see both the real and the Unseen world. Tom's physical body doesn't exist in the Unseen world but his spirit does, which Goldberry seems to see. He has traveled the world of Middle Earth, made paths, seen many wars and survived cataclysmic events. He has since settled in the Old Forest because its one of the last living remnants of a greater world, as its probably closest to where he feels at home in a world that has changed so much throughout the Ages of Middle Earth. Tom can also probably shapeshift his physical body, so it doesn't matter what body he has, his immortal spirit hasn't changed, as Goldberry says, He is. Tom Bombadil is just the current 'name' for ancient spirit housed in a body, so that the hobbits and the reader can feel comfortable while getting a deeper look into the nature of Middle Earth.
For me, Tom represents in a very real way the music of the ainur uncorrupted by Melkor. He represents how the world would be without the discord of melkor and what the world could have been if the earth had not been corrupted from Morgoth's touch. Tom demonstrates mastery through music and song, the very foundation of reality in the legendarium. His limits and boundaries are self imposed and his interests are confined to the beauty of existing. He is uneffected by the Discord of Melkor because he is empowered by Eru, you could even argue that Tom's origin comes from Eru's response in the music to the discord, when Eru sang over Melkor and put him in his place.
It takes serious humility and self awareness to admit to oneself that they arent incorruptible, think of Gandalf refusing to take the ring. How many of us are this honest with ourselves while we cry about others abuse of their power? So glad I stumbled across the 10day silent Vipassana courses. Best thing I ever did.
First time seeing your channel. Good stuff, my theory is that Tom is a special type of self insertion. An allegorical story he wrote is Leaf by Niggle, in the end Niggle, the allegorical Tolkien gets by the grace of god to work on his painted landscape, makes sense to me Tom is Niggle is the professor, also Goldberry is a bit of a giveaway nymph like and magically charming, she can only be Edith. Thanks I’ll check more of your stuff when I get the chance.
Hi. New sub here. Randomly stumbled upon your channel and like what I heard. Over the decades I've been reading Tolkien, this is a topic I had many different thoughts on. I finally settled on this one: *Tom is Father Time, and Goldberry is Mother Nature.* Once you think of Tom as a manifestation of Time itself, almost everything else falls into place and starts to make sense. He is the Master of rocks, trees, and hills because nothing escapes the march of time. He was the First (as in the first thing in Arda), because nothing else can transpire unless Time exists for causality to occur. When he said he came upon the hobbits by chance, but was still expecting to meet them, it's because he already knew the future. He IS the past, present, and future all at once. Wherever he currently is, or ever will be, is all preordained, as unchanging as wherever he has already been. So it WAS by chance that he was nearby to save the hobbits from Old Man Willow, but then he would also know to expect meeting them. Similarly, he knows the hobbits would get caught by the barrow wight, despite giving them stern warnings to avoid the downs, so he teaches them his song. This is an odd thing to do because the hobbits would have passed beyond his Lands by morning. When did Tom think his song would have been useful if not that very same night? It would be like telling your teenaged kid not to use the car, but then giving them gas money. The Ring doesn't affect Tom because he also exists simultaneously in a time before the Ring was created and after it was destroyed. It cannot influence anything outside its own timeline. Similarly, Tom can make the Ring disappear because he is the Master of Time (think of it as "shifting" the Ring out of phase). This is also why he is able to see (or perhaps simply intuit) where Frodo is, because he already knows where and when Frodo will take off the Ring. Gandalf even remarks that Tom would make a poor steward of the Ring because he'd view it as a trifle and discard it. Tom is, in essence, infinity, knowing the fate of all things, and thus the ultimate futility of sentimentality. It's why he can be both carefree and happy one second, and utterly morose the next. He knows the end of all things. The only flaw in this theory that I can think of is when Gandalf says that if Sauron regains the Ring, then Tom would likely be the last to fall, but fall he will. I have trouble picturing any scenario in which Sauron becomes powerful enough to destroy time itself. A second minor flaw is the fact that Tom seems to be bound to a relatively small area of land. However, I think this was just Tolkien's way of keeping Tom out of the main plot, similar to why the eagles didn't just fly Frodo to Mount Doom. It's a plot hole, sure, but it isn't really worth banging your head against a wall to rationalize. Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter. Hope they at least proved entertaining, if not thought-provoking. Cheers!
This almost works, except for the detail about Tom and Goldberry being local spirits. I tend to think of Goldberry being a subordinate of Ulmo, but Tom is just a playful spirit of nature who just has nothing to do with technocracy like the Rings, but would succumb if Sauron eradicated all natural countryside as he had done to Mordor.
The utube Gods threw this channel my way as well..love it when that happens :) Especially when I find a channel with an awesome comment section..yours was a delight to read btw
Definitely a substantial theory. And I'll add, the first flaw you pointed out, almost works itself out through your own explanation above. If Tom was the first in Arda, and IF Sauron destroyed the world(or I suppose unmade it), it would make sense he would fall last, end time and what have you. Plus, I mean Gandalf said it. 😉
@@abj136 Yeah, it's not a perfect theory, and there are probably more flaws to it than I pointed out. For a long time my opinion used to be: "Tolkien liked mystery, and even he probably had no idea who or what Tom Bombadil is, so don't think on too much." But with so much depth and detail given to all other Middle Earth lore, this did not satisfy my desire to know that Tom must have had a place within it. So I crafted a rationale I thought fit best.
In some ways, it's how a journey takes you in unexpected situations, a plot ruin, a little lightness before the plunge, and something fun and whimsical. Also, again it is very much a function.
This is a subject that gets the melon cooking! Lol I've always thought of Tom as part of the plan by Eru! He's there to assist in fate! That's the great thing about this its open to personal interpretation. Just subbed brother!
I still like to think of Tom Bombadil as simply being an aspect of Eru Ilúvatar. IIRC Tolkien denies that, and said there is no embodiment of the creator in the story. But I'll nitpick that away and say "well technically" that isn't Eru Ilúvatar, but just a part of him. After all, the Tolkien creator-deity shares a lot of things with Tolkien's own religion's creator deity, and dividing a deity up into many parts represented by different people or things is something he was familiar with.
Except is he really? Many have commented that Jackson did just fine skipping him. Part of that is certainly because a guy in yellow boots dancing around and singing doesn't really fit with the glower he created. But apart from that adventure and the council mentioning him, what fate does he assist? But somebody mentioned him as the 'anti ungoliant'. I get the feeling that chick would have eaten that ring for lunch. Remember that Gollum figures even just Shelob would eat Frodo and shit out the ring. Ungoliant wouldn't have even burped, she messed up Melkor for petes sake. And she's still out there somewhere! Holy crap run!
I believe that, within the Discord of Melkor, there is room for a lot of things not planned by Eru or the Valar. Ungoliant, The Nameless Things, The Watcher in the Water, & the Spirits that would end up becoming Vampires, Werewolves & Dragons.....I believe that Tom Bombadil is one of these creations. So not too different from your own hypothesis.
@@abj136 The 'supposed' claim is that EVERYTHIGN comes from Eru. "In the beginning there was Eru, the one, who in Arda is called Iluvatar" or something like that. The claim is that eventually those black things will find out they did but serve a purpose. Thats the age old defence of evil in the world. We can't explain evil, so we take a meaning that "well, in the end it will all make sense". Thats a rationalizaiton of course. But thats true, although Tom is of a different sort than dragons, which were bred by melkor. Pretty sure theres a line in the Silmarillion where Tolkien pops him in. So he's more like the Ents, which Yavannah, or whatever her name is, got whatsisname to send over to middle earth to protect the trees. So he would be more like the wizards or Sauron. Pretty sure Sauron is called of a kind with the wizards. There is no real explaining why he is much more powerful. The thing with the ring is that power grows the more it is used, but ultimately it can't overcome, well, I don't know, I just made that up. But in LOTR he even says 'the world is gnawed by nameless thigns', thats probably what you meant, sorry. An important point to thatis the Eru 'introduces' 'the world' to the valar. But there is no notion of how long it had been there. OR, a thought just occured to me, the valar supposedly CAME from his thought. So whose to say the entirety of creation hadn't gone on cyclical forevre BEFORE the valar and THEIR song was actually the history of some other 'middle earth' that had come before. THAT is the 'ending' that they prophesize all the way along for ALL Eru's children. All the people and beings and everything that exists then becomes the notes for NEW songs with a whole new host of vala and a whole new middle earth. First I thought of that, thats a cool idea, thanks for helping me think of it! Have a good one.
Tom is Ainur, but neither Vala or Maia. He came to Arda before any of them. That's why he is First. He is his own master, not beholding to any Vala, like the Maia are.
First time watcher, gonna dive into your backlog. I find it difficult to find time to read, and I've never had the chance to go through this series in full.
@@kendevries3212 I think Bombadil might be like an idealized self. Iirc Beren is his actual self insert because Luthien is explicitly his wife. I think Goldberry is similarly there for Tom to represent his ideal happy rural domestic life.
In "The Silmarillion": The three mountains (Redhorn, Cloudyhead, Silvertine) were raised up by Morgoth to hinder the riding of Orome the Hunter, and he placed evil spirits within them (the way he did with the Dragons and Wolves). Tom is basically the Green Man of Celtic Mythology, a nature personification.
it says nothing of the sort. It makes no specific reference to three mountains nor anything about evil spirits. have you read the Silmarillion? Tom is likely not the Green Man of celtic mythology since he mostly bases it on nordic mythology.
The mountains you mentioned are part of the Misty Mountains, which were formed naturally in the early ages of Arda (the world in which the events of "The Silmarillion" take place). They were not created by Morgoth, the main antagonist of the book. Morgoth did hinder the riding of Oromë the Hunter in J.R.R. Tolkien's legendarium. Oromë, also known as Aldaron or Tauron, was one of the Valar, the powerful divine beings in Tolkien's mythology. He was the Huntsman of the Valar and a great rider. When the Valar first arrived in Middle-earth to wage war against Morgoth, Oromë rode across the land, hunting and exploring. However, Morgoth, the Dark Lord, sensed his presence and sent forth various creatures and evil spirits to hinder Oromë's movements and harass him. These evil creatures, including monsters and demons, would often attack Oromë and his hunting parties, making it difficult for him to freely explore and hunt.
@@eponaalbion Yes but a Vala such as Melkor can alter natural creatures and features. That's how we got Ents (Yavanna) and talking Eagles (Manwe). And don't forget the dwarves (Aüle). It is explicitly stated that Morgoth raised up these mountains and put evil wills or spirits within them, as he did with wolves and dragons, as part of his "anti-Orome measures". My memory may not serve me in that it may not be in the Silmarillion, but I'm almost sure that it is. How else could a mountain get mad that people are climbing on it (especially enemies of Morgoth) and dump snow on them till they stop?!
@@Nunya_Bidness_53 Right but in J.R.R. Tolkien's legendarium, Melkor (also known as Morgoth) did raise up mountains to hinder Oromë the Hunter. However, there is no specific mention of him placing evil spirits within those mountains for the purpose of blocking Oromë's movements. According to the texts in "The Silmarillion," when the Valar initially descended into Middle-earth to wage war against Melkor, he used his great power to create massive mountain ranges and fortifications. These mountain ranges, including the Iron Mountains (Ered Engrin) and the Thangorodrim, were intended to serve as barriers and defenses against the Valar and their allies. While it is not explicitly stated that these mountains were raised specifically to block Oromë, they did play a role in hindering the Valar's activities and isolating certain regions. The primary intent behind Melkor's creation of these mountain ranges was to establish strongholds and fortify his own position in his rebellion against the Valar.
I think Tolkien was just having a bit of fun. It was in a way a cheerful whimsical escape from the overcasting gloom of the story. A sort of musical way to remind the reader to stop and smell the flowers. Not everything is so gloom and doom in the world and we should learn to appreciate these simple little joys that come in the way of our own journeys in life! I also stand by my disappointment in the fact that Robin Williams would had made an amazing Tom Bombadil in the Peter Jackson Adaptation. Such a missed opportunity! Imagine if you will Robin Williams in that glorious yellow hat and flowing beard prancing along so gaily singing his merry ol' song right before he stumbles upon the halflings in need of his rescuing. I don't care if Jackson felt that Tom's character did not seem to contribute much to the story. A Robin Williams take on the character would had been something amazing and worthy of the silver screen! Heck, at least for the extended edition! If I could ever have a sit and a beer with Jackson, I would discuss this extensively and why Bombadil should had been included in the movie. He might still disagree, but I'd hope to give him some pause and consideration despite the films already have been made and Robin Williams unfortunately long gone from this existence. Rest In Peace you very silly man!
I remember buying The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, a long poem in the 1970s and the version I got also had other stories in it. I remember one was Farmer Giles of Ham and the other was Smith of Wootton Major. I enjoyed the two stories, but was rather disappointed by the Adventures because I didn't know it was a poem and I wasn't really into dissecting poetry at the time. It wasn't a very big paperback. Wished I still had it, but it disappeared like so many things in my life of 70+ years.
You earned a sub simply by your channel name. In my opinion that warcry is the most iconic moment in the history of ALL mankind in Tolkien's legendarium.
Tom is Tolkien himself. He is the creator of the world. He is the deus ex machina who saves Frodo when necessary… who cannot be tempted by the ring because he transcends it… but who cannot protect it because he is not a “true” part of the story.
Would the creator not be Eru Ilúvatar? (with that said, I like the idea that Tom Bombadil is just an aspect of Eru Ilúvatar who is living within his creation, so that nitpick aside, I'm on board with your theory here.
@@Wedgenet - Yes, but given Tolkien’s Christian theology, it is not hard to consider how the one creator could be known through different “persons”… Eru Iluvatar in his transcendent nature and Tom in a more imminent form.
Having heard our Mother-tongue in the womb, we're born able to mimic its rhythm and cadence (French babies do not 'sing' like English). We learn the form of words, and the voids between them, before the words themselves, and literally sing our language (and, by extension, our world) into being. Tom is our First Burble, our Ceremony of Innocence, the Nativity of the Will to Sing.
It was by chance I came across your channel. I'm happy to be here as my area only gets internet service sporadically. (One good reason I cannot afford to be on discord discussions, I don't exist long online and have to budget where I go.) In music sometimes instruments give off wolf tones, sympathetic tones and even wolf beats that are not remotely the note, pitch or rhythm a musician was aiming for. An instrumentalist could be playing an "A" while another might be playing a "D" and a wolf tone unexpected or planned could sound its own sharp "E". Tom might be his own instrument, unexpected by even the valar and in a sense his own vala. (Not beyond Eru to weave his will though!) This could explain where even Ungoliant came from thanks to Melkor's musical ensemble. Tom though is not like the dark spirits but more akin to those in Valinor. I also think this is the other reason the ring doesn't tempt him. I think he is of a higher level than a simple maiar. Galadriel, even Gandalf and Saurman can be tempted by the ring. Tom is not. Also as the Valar are linked to Arda and can't leave it, neither can Tom. Also consider this... If Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel and all the wizards, even combining their strengths, would fall before Tom would, what does this say about Tom's level of power? It also suggests the ability of the ring to amplify Sauron's power. I doubt he simply did a straight trade of his being into the ring without a chance of getting a power upgrade by pouring a key part of his 'being' into the ring. Since I can't be consistently on every channel or social media, feel free to use my thoughts, though it would be kind if someone credited my existence.
Seems clear to me that Gandalf considered him a kindred spirit, albeit with a different set of goals. As Gandalf was a maia, I think Tom being a maia makes sense. We know from the story of Melian (and balrogs) that there were maia who lived in middle earth vs in Valinor. If we believe Tom to be truthful, he could have been the first of the Ainur to come to middle earth, making him the "eldest". Thanks for the video! JW
This is how I interpret it also. My guess is that he is the first one who "found" the rock where the Valar would create the home for the Children of Iluvatar. He was literally the first, who welcomed everyone else, even the Valar, to Middle-Earth. Orome (probably) taught the first elf children to reverence him and called him "First" and "Eldest".
Authors don't necessarily ALWAYS have a grand purpose for everything they put into their books. Tolkien just liked Tom & wanted to squeeze him into LOTR.
I’m of two thoughts on this, which may be the same thing. 1 - as you said he is the soul of the land. The place manifesting as soul 2 - he is a Maia who bound himself to the land at its creation, the soul manifesting the place.
I think that, in terms of the plot, the characters (as well as the reader) need a break. They've been travelling for a while; they need rest. In terms of world-building, we get to see a powerful entity (Nature itself) that gives us some information of what the world was like in the beginning.
Tom Bombadill was egoless; hence the ring had no power over him. The power of the ring is ego power and nothing else, hence evil. Why else would Sauron be depicted as The Eye or more appropriately the "I."
I think Tom Bombadil represents what is at stake. An incarnation of bliss and living in harmony and joy with(in) nature, together with your love and friends. A utopia that could be achieved if we were somehow able to purge evil from creation. That is, within canon, undo the discord Melkor caused within the song of creation.
Wow, the comments section is full of great insights. I never thought of that before, cool idea. Its kind of supposedly supposed to be what happens after they destroy the ring? Aragorn is supposedly going to bring about a peace like that?
I'm not a chapter and verse scripture guy, but as I recall we have the savior with "chance and circumstance comes to every man". There are portions of Tolkien's prose which seem to echo or recall scripture. Fantastic stuff, thanks!
Gandalf thinks of him as a Maia. At the end of the trilogy he talks about having a long chat with Tom and basically says that he has been a wanderer and Tom has stayed put.
I have recently though of Ton Bombadil as some form of "the earth it self" or maybe "nature it self", his chance, and unplanned ....Planneed-ness and his descrition things brings me to think of life erupting and seaons falling, the randomness of creation (that he does not control) all to me speaks of Bombadil as some of personification of "nature itself"
Elrond says "strength to resist Sauron is not in Tom, unless it is in the earth itself." Hence, Tom is an expression, or spirit of Middle Earth itself.
I agree with what I believe it was that Matt Colville said about Tom Bombadil; You have to remember that Tolkien was writing an epic myth and that this is the hero's journey. The hobbits start in a place of innocence and leave to a dangerous world. They leave the Shire into the dark woods. The woods are still a place of innocence, but they are darker hinting of a bigger world beyond. They meet Tom in the woods, he represents another stop on the hero's journey. A knifes edge between innocence and maturity. Tom is almost an eternal teenager. The hero is balancing on an edge. Of course Frodo tries to get away, but you cannot sneak away from that sort of thing. You must stand up and walk away a little wiser for the experience. The time spent with Tom is confusing, but aren't the teen years confusing when the brain is rewiring. Tom is unafraid, the master but not responsible. The hero is not fully mature when he leaves but he is getting there. We may never know who Tom is in the mythos of middle earth, but we can know who he is on the hero's journey. He is. He is Tom Bombadil.
I've always been of the opinion that Tom Bombadil was Eru on the flesh, but lately, I've been thinking that Tom is the spirit of the Flame Imperishable.
This is the video I've been waiting for literally for years. I've been commenting on RUclips videos and telling my friends and stuff for years that Tom was in some way the embodiment of the music. We know he isn't "from outside", and that he has always been in Middle Earth since the beginnings of things. What's was the first thing, at the instant of Middle Earth's creation? The music.
My theory will seem elementary compared to a lot of these comments but I've settled on imagining Tom as "Father Time" and Goldberry as "Mother Earth". Tom was "needing to get flowers for Goldberry" as in, life/nature does not just manifest, but it takes TIME to grow. As Tom mentioned being there before all other things. Even the council mentioning both his great "power" but also his indifference to something even so evil as the one ring. "Time waits for no man" as they say.
Wow, another good one. I think you need to put more meat into that theory, but its a cool idea. Power certainly has no effect on 'time'. But being 'time', whew, that a BIG symbol. Time is the ocean we drown in as they say.
@@twistplusfriends yes, good theory. He is rather timeless, but still seasonal. Goldsberry is Nature, or a spirit of it. Bombadil could be the Green Man.
In regards to the barrow downs in the final chapters of return of the king I believe it is Gandalf that says the of the barrows that they were raised by the first men a repurposed. It may be in the appendices.
If Tom was the music he would not say the dark lord from outside because they're both from the same place. I bet he's the creator of the story. Only the author was there before everything.
Tom said he was there before the dark lord fell from the sky. This doesn't mean he existed before Melkor, just before Melkor descended into Arda. Even then, according to the Legendarium, Melkor wandered the wide vastness of Arda while the other Valar worked to create the earth, sky, and stars. Then Melkor returned, descending upon the land with great might and splender. I think THIS is the moment that Tom is referring to.
I am with you on Tom as what you might call ‘the embodiment of the land’ but he has a specific role, in my view; his job is to demonstrate that while all the beings inhabiting Middle-Earth across the ages have worked their works and fought their fights and raised their little (or great) kingdoms and come and gone, the land - or nature, or the natural world - has existed alongside all these upheavals but, most importantly, it will always exist despite them too. His not being affected by the Ring, for instance, shows that while the works of Sauron impact on the races and history of the world immensely, the rain will still fall, the sun will still rise, the wind will still blow, that there are aspects of creation beyond the reach of the beings who choose to exert their power. It’s a fundamentally important point to get into the story, that while all these battles and struggles are stretching across the various nations and tribes, the world upon which they fight just keeps on turning. Tom is the physical manifestation of the eternal continuity of the land versus the fleeting shapes of those who crawl upon it, no matter how great any of them might seem for a time.
I had forgotten where that line "destroyers and usurpers" had originated...Treebeard exclaims it at some point in the Jackson films. It's been a minute since I watched those so not sure the exact point when that occurs lol
Okay as a Tolkienite, I have an answer... The Publishers made him put Tom Bombadil in the LotR series. Tom does not belong in Middle Earth, but part of a series of short stories about worldbuilding of a different world similar to his friends C. S. Lewis's Narnia. The original Tom was part of a series of short stories the publishers liked a lot and wanted that known character in the books. So, to make him fit, Tolkien made him above all the rest. He knew the Ents when they were young, he saw the first of the Elves come from the undying lands. No one not even the Eldar knew from whence he came. So on and so forth. If Tolkien had his way, from then on, Tom, would have been a narrator to the histories since he is the only one to have seen it all. Tom had an affinity to the hobbits since they were a lower sample of the race that came from the first children of Tom and Goldenberry. These ideas were cut by the publisher, not to detract from the story they wanted to publish. Just like Tolkien Hated the title of the third book. He said it gave an important plot point away and ruined all of his hard work. In the original work, if you can find them, Tom was the embodiment of the wise old farmer in the Shire that knew everything. What he had was enough and to want anything more was being greedy. You could say in the LotR, he made Tom equal to God, since he was God in the other stories.
1. I seem to recall remarks by Tolkien that it was his intention that Tom Bombadil be ambiguous. If my memory is correct about that, any identification of Tom that we come up with is more about who we perceive Tom to be than about what or whom Tolkien meant him to be. 2. That said, your identification of Tom is the only one I've heard that makes sense to me. 3. I've never been able to read _The Silmarillion_ in its entirety; I get lost in the elvish histories, with the proverbial cast of thousands but an extremely short list of names that are used repeatedly. But a friend of mine who'd read the whole thing told me that he thought he'd figured out which of the gods Tom Bombadil is, and that the answer was shocking. And then my friend died in an accident without ever telling me exactly who he thought Tom Bombadil was, or why. It may be a fruitful line of inquiry for someone who has a greater ability to deal with _The Silmarillion_ than I have.
Could it be possible that there is not one single explanation of who Tom is. Reading the Lord of the Rings I have often reflected on this chapter and it doesn't seem to fit and yet it does. Yes, there is fluidity to the rest of the whole story, but I've often thought could it be possible that this is thoughts that Tolkien had prior to the Lord of the Rings and when parts of the whole were written this narrative was inserted. My belief is that Tom is a symbol, but at some level a manifestation of Tolkien himself into the narrative. Clearly Tom is NOT Eru or any of the Ainu, who else would be impervious to the destructive power of the ring?
As someone in a youtube comment once pointed out: goldberry is probably saying "HE is" (pointing at Tom). This also explains why for her it is a complete sentence.
I'm no more crazy about the "embodiment of the land" than I am about the "embodiment of Eru". I'm with you that I don't think Tolkien worked it out himself preferring Tom to be a mystery. That said, if we constrain our thinking to Tolkien's ontological structure, then he has to be an Ainu. He can't be one of the Valar, but an extremely powerful Ainu that has no desire to rule in Middle Earth. This fits with the message of the Lord of the Rings quite nicely, and I'll explain below. First, I want to point out that this fits with Goldberry possibly being a Maia. Goldberry is the "river-woman's daughter." Despite saying "river-woman" I think this could be a reference to the Maiar of Ulmo, and perhaps she's the offspring of two Maia. So consider the resistance of the Hobbits to the ring. Most other beings are easily corrupted by the ring because they have power and seek power. The Hobbits at best simply want to take the ring and hide with it so they can admire its beauty. They don't particularly want power, merely contentment. They almost seem bred for a quiet life. This makes them the perfect candidates for seeing to the eventual destruction of the one ring. In fact, including Gollum, the ring was in the possession of Hobbits for about the last 600 years of its existence until finally being destroyed by them. It's this message of not seeking power that Tom Bombadil fits into. He has mastery over the forest, but doesn't seek to be its master. He lives in a forest that seems at least as well protected as Doriath by the Girdle of Melian. I think Goldberry could well do this without Tom's help. Tom isn't affected by the ring because he has zero desire for power though he is probably the most powerful being in Middle Earth. This places him well above and out of the sphere of influence of the ring. The ring is nothing to him and he cares nothing for it one way or the other. He is the antithesis of Melkor and his power-seeking minions like Sauron. That said, his presence in Middle Earth is intentional I think, but not of his own design. He wasn't sent to rule Middle Earth and he didn't request to come. But he's content to be there and enjoy Eru's creation. Also, I think his very close proximity to the Hobbits is intentional, even interacting with some of them occasionally. I think he created the Hobbits as an expression of his own self-contentment. They are perhaps a part of his song to Eru Iluvatar. For the account of the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf and Elrond know he's there, but will do precisely - nothing. And that's the point. Aragorn shares his contentment apart from power enough to not seek the throne of Gondor. Gandalf understands that this same trait is what makes the Hobbits ideal for the task and in a way, Elrond agrees. So his continued presence is didactic to the influencers on the good side. If only Saruman had learned this lesson. Saruman probably thought that Tom was foolish.
I tended to subscribe to the theory that Tom is the personification of the Song of Creation which can explain why he is the oldest on, and so masterfully bonded with, Middle Earth. But this theory beggars the question why Tom confines himself to such a restricted area of Middle Earth rather than being kind of omnipresent in it. So I like this new idea (to me) that Tom is a genius loci, the manifestation of the spirit of his environment.
So, about a year ago I saw 'Nerd of the Rings" "Five Great Tom Bombadil Theories" video, and made this comment: 'm hardly a Ring nerd, but somehow this video came up in my suggestions. I do love the character of Tom though, so I watched this. When you got to the final suggestion, it led off with a picture of Tolkein, this gave me a instant flash of who he is and what (alas not) what the final theory would be. He is the author insertion character. He is the incarnation of Tolkein himself. I still think that it holds up. Of course Tom was "before, blah, blah". Who had to be, if not Tolkein himself?
Just as a reminder about the Ents, we do know their origin, when Aule creates the dwarves Yavanna is worried for the plants and so she asks Eru for permission to create the Ents
YES!! FINALY!! I've always thought Tom was a spirit of the land, it's there in the words of both Tom and Goldberry, and remember also that Tolkien was a great lover of nature, especially trees. He revered nature as a creation of his God. I like the explanation that the Ring can't affect Tom because he doesn't desire power or anything beyond what he already has/is. As for why did Frodo put on the Ring in Tom's house, it's explained in the text - Frodo became suspicious as to whether Tom actually gave him back the real Ring, probably prodded by the power of the Ring itself. Tom saw him wearing it because, again, its power doesn't touch hm.
To me, Tom Bombadil is an avatar. An avatar is defined as a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth (in this case Middle Earth); an incarnate divine teacher. That is, an incarnation, embodiment, or manifestation of a person or idea. Tom is the embodiment of the natural world, which existed unspoiled by man. I loved this chapter so early on in the epic tale that I feel helped establish the beauty and wonder of nature. He is a sort of innocence, which makes Saruman’s destruction of the forest that much more despicable, though I doubt that’s what Tolkien intended. For me, it made Middle Earth a more magical and deeper world of mysteries that is even beyond the ken of even the elves. I’m not saying this is true or what Tolkien intended, but just that it’s my interpretation that works for me in giving Tom’ appearance a meaning.
I kinda agree with your assessment of Tom but I have a slightly alternate version which I've always thought. Tom is a physical maifestation of the music of the Ainur. When Eru said Eä, the "World and All That Is" Arda came into being. When the world came into being Tom was there from the start 'before the dark Lord came from outside'. While he is also a spirit that represents the land as you say, his proclivity for song and rhyme has always made me think of the music of the Ainur.
That sounds pretty close. Except that it doesn't say much. The WORLD is a physical manifestation of the song, but what does that MEAN. And Tom is not the same as the world, he has speech, WHY does he have speech? What does it actually mean to 'represent' something? You get a hypothesis like that you got to draw it out in a youtube for as long as this one is and explain it:)
@@mikearchibald744 Well I don't make videos so I can't explain it in that detail but in short the world is the physical manifestation of the music, Tom represents the Living embodiment of the world. The plants, tree and the animals, maybe also the sentient life Elves, Men etc. I think Gandalf said something at the Council like 'If Sauron concurs then even Tom will fall, last as he was first.' If there is no more life on Arda then Tom will cease. That's my interpretation anyway, and the whole point of Tom is there is no true answer. Tolkien designed him as an enigma.
@@markoconnor7163 There's no true answer, but the point of literature isn't finding a true answer, but learning more about life from searching for answers. And of course ALL characters are enigmas and open to many similar questions. But you just repeated yourself first, but good point, I'd forgotten that quote, last as he was first. But being first doesn't necessarily mean any more than chronology. I'd have to reread that part of the silmarillion that does the chronology and what exactly was there and when. But a couple of other insights others had were that one guy said he was 'time', which is an interesting idea, another mentioned that he only shows up when he is needed. So that kind of rings with what you say, the 'earth' helps out the protagonist when they need help, otherwise the story is over. But guardian angels and lucky leprechauns also do that. But being first doesn't necessarily mean that, so I'm trying to think of other examples besides the one you give, in Tolkien or even in other fairie stories. Like the guy with 'time', being the incarnation of the whole planet is a big symbol. Its not finding the one true answer, but looking for ones that can be validated. The 'time' one seems a stretch, yours has more validity than that, but I'm still not sure. Although I certainly haven't come up with anything better. Usually in movies its just another character who 'shows up in the nick of time', but this is obviously different. But your right, there is not definitive answer. But I hadn't thought about tolkien in awhile before seeing this site, that was a good reminder, that in the whole world he was first, AND he would be last. That statement could have been melodrama though, after all, we really don't even KNOW from Tolkien whats in all of the eastern earth. But the first and last thing on earth is like a guardian angel who ONLY ever seems to show up to save Frodo, nowhere else in all middle earth. Of course thats the point where we can say 'thats enough, we're thinking about it too much'. But I'm going to reread that council of elrond for more clues, thanks for that. Somebody else mentioned Pan, as a similar trope, although as you say, Tom seems a bigger character than just some comic helper. Have a good one.
@@mikearchibald744 Interesting ideas.. I've heard many different Tom theories over the years, that he was Eru or Aule are two of them but neither fit very well.. if he Was Aule then Goldberry would be Yavanna which doesn't tie in with her being River daughter. Eru is illogical as there is no indication that he ever came to Arda and if he did he would certainly be more powerful than Sauron and able to vanquish him. The idea of time you suggested is a new one to me and I do like it... Tom is Timeless. He is unaging and appears the passing years have no effect on him as they do the Elves who weary of the world after millenia. Tom is certainly older than all the Elves by thousands of maybe tens of thousands of years as the time line pre-elves isn't exactly clear. Tom is as vibrant and invested in things when we see him as likely he ever was, only caring about the things within his realm as he has likely been doing for thousands of years. To me the biggest clue we ever get about Tom is from himself: "Who are you Master" he asked. "Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinted in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends. Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made the paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the kings and the graves and the Barrow-wrights. When the Elves passed westward, tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside". The first raindrop and the first acorn imply he's been there since the beginning of time, before the Dark Lord came from outside also does as the Silmarillion states Melkor came into the world near it's beginning shortly after the Valar did. Perhaps most important is 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer.' Tom is simply Tom Bombadil or as Goldberry puts it 'he is' Thanks for the debate - been kinda fun :D
@@markoconnor7163 Yeah, thanks, I have to reread it, I'd forgotten that whole speech you quoted, and can't take credit for the time idea, not mine. But somebody else said he actually IS the earth. Another guy mentions him only appearing when Frodo needs help, but that was likely BECAUSE frodo needs help. But those two seem closest. But as you say, maybe he's 'nothing' but what that would mean is that he's a cheap plot device to get Frodo out of a jam and for some comic relief, which is unsatisfying idea for Tolkien, maybe a shitty hollywood movie. Some guy said that this JJ Abrams guy made a point of doing that in a star wars film, I don't watch star wars but I suspect thats something that would make it suck if you are just sticking in weird shit for the sake of it being weird. But we know there are more 'nameless things' and they say 'they are older than Sauron', and yet Sauron is a Maier, he's as old as Morgoth. So literally there is ALL kinds of shit on the planet before any of the 'holy ones' came. Which brings us back to the music of the ainur. Notice how Tom is almost always singing. He knows the 'songs of the trees' and what songs control them. I was thinking about the whole music thing yesterday, so that would kind of make Tom the intro and the rhythm section of the world? These comments are great, I've learned more from the comments than the video:) Peace out.
I've always thought Tom is the first story. That's why he's the eldest. He is based on an old doll from Tolkien's house. The old forest is a microcosm of the story to come, or where the stories came from. Taken from Tolkien's boyhood home. He sings songs because that was how epics that Tolkien studied were told, i.e. Beowulf. He grounds the story in a type of reality. A meta foil.
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one to hear it, does it make a sound? Tolkien's answer seems to be that Tom Bombadil is there to hear it. The Genius Loci makes all things real.
Good video, I think Tom is a good character. Tolkien very much understood you don’t need to explain everything (which is sadly lacking these days). My best guess is he is Tolkien in the book, and introduced himself as a way to provide Pacing. The fellowship of the Ring is to me a master class of pacing. Periods of clam followed by intense Peril. Honestly, it’s probably one of the reasons why i don’t rate the movies as highly as others.
Tom Bombadil is who and what Tolkien told us he is --- no more and no less. If that is not satisfying, I suggest using a time machine so you can go back and grill Professor T about the matter.
Tom Bombadil reminds me a bit of the character Kruppe in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. Now I should probably add another example, but that was the only comparison I could think of. Might be worth checking out. (I also wonder how much the author Steven Erikson was conscious of it, since I would judge him to be somewhat condescending of Tolkien. There are those. But I would be a little surprised if he never thought of the comparison at all.)
The Most important point is Nature (TOM) isn't ruled by the ring or power or those metal minded folk..... Tom's pure joy in life and Nature is not a possessive thing, it is a celebration of nature, its gifts, its beauty and its joy..... Tom is Nature itself and saw the first life being born.... Tom is essential to grasping what is good in Tolkien philosophy....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom Bombadil is a taskmaster for Frodo and is there to both teach and test the courage of Frodo in order to prepare him for what he will encounter when he meets the dark riders.
Tom Bombadil is Eru Iluvatar. Eru Himself participated in the Ainulindale -- the Ainur being a choir to back up His song of creation. And how does Tom communicate? His every line of dialogue is in a sing-song rhythm! He's still re-creating Creation with every moment in which He interacts with others within that created world. His name in Sindarin was "Iarwain Ben-adar" which means "Old Fatherless" . . . but how could he be 'fatherless' when the name Iluvatar means "Father of all"? Only Iluvatar can be said to have had no father -- which means that Bombadil is the very Fatherless Father-of-All. You could say that in spite of all the sorrow and misery experienced by so many of the creatures of Middle-Earth throughout its history, Tom Bombadil is able to retain his own happy-go-lucky existence because he knows how the Song is going to end -- and he has never stopped his singing all along, where every line he says is a verse in an ongoing ballad. Keep in mind that when the War of the Ring was over, when the Hobbits were returning to the Shire, they were accompanied by Gandalf as far as Bree, where he parted company with them . . . because he intended to visit with none other than Tom Bombadil. By this time, of course, Gandalf has 'died' and been reborn as Gandalf the White. He has gained insights that he didn't quite grasp earlier on, at the Council of Elrond -- where talk of Tom Bombadil had been had. But now, as his mission in Middle-Earth is coming to its close, it makes perfect sense that Gandalf would approach the mysterious character -- just to see whether or not his suspicions of Bombadil's true nature are spot-on. "Did I do a good job, Boss? Is there anything else you need me to do before I get on one of those boats at the Grey Havens?" Gandalf had told Frodo and the others that he intended to meet with Tom Bombadil, back in Bree, but he never tells them -- later, at the Grey Havens -- what it is that he and Tom may have talked about. Why not? Might that have been worth a mention in the Red Book? Tom Bombadil is Eru Iluvatar. 'God' dwelling within His own created world -- if for nothing more than the sheer joy of it. Oh, and to be there at that crucial moment early on during the perilous adventure, when the four hobbits are first out of their depth, the Black Riders getting too damn close too soon. A little 'deus ex machina' done in a subtle way -- with only a bit of sing-song neighborliness being somehow able to shunt those Nazgul away from their intended prey. And the One Ring is a mere nothing to him . . .
This is my theory: Tom Bombadil is a Maiar. When the Valar were creating the universe and searching for a suitable celestial object to build the home for the Children of Eru, Tom was the first to discover the right "rock" in space. He never left. He notified the Valar, they came and did their things, and Tom went on living humbly and loving the world and all that was in it.
I'm not sure about the characterization of your conclusion, but mine I think is close. Tom is The Green Man, embodied. We have a similar problem with Ents. If the Valar cannot ensoul a being, perhaps they can appeal to Eru to do so. Notably, Aule did not make a direct appeal. However Eru recognized his desire and effort - an indirect appeal - and granted it at a more appropriate time. The orcs? I got nothing. Maybe cloning? Something like Saruman did with the Uruk-Hai in the film.
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Tom represents something that Tolkien felt important. That when you are pure of heart, and have no desire for power, you can't be corrupted. Its also a way to show off some musical prose.
The "no desire for power" is the most important part there.
And also, just didn't care enough to deal with petty mortals' problems...
@@coachhannah2403 It wasn't really that. Tom was VERY helpful. He was just very long lived, very playful and was in the moment. He didn't think ahead. Thats very different from a godlike indifference to people.
Well, the fact is he HAD a lot of power. I'm not sure how that equates, but he learned the song for old man willow and wasnt afraid to use it. I suspect its more in line with Treebeard, there were spirits on middle earth long before Sauron, so the idea that Saurons ring and the power of the elves would have an effect is a little specious.
At the same time he KNEW about the ring, and wanted to see it and try it on. I suspect Tolkien knew full well he'd be one of those characters that opeople could talk endlessly on what they are and represent.
At the same same time, he seems content to be living in an area thats been getting geographically smaller 'in borders he has set for himself', oddly enough even right by the barrow wights, which you would think would be neighbours he could do without.
I would suspect that like Gandalf he simply 'knows his place' in the scheme of things.
If I remember correctly he wrote Tom for his daughter. He represents that innocence of children. The ring could have been carried by a child.
Tolkien invented Tom years before he wrote LOTR. Tom was not part of the Legendarium at the time, just a funny character he made up to entertain his kids. When he was writing LOTR, Tolkien did not really have his story worked out yet, so he brought Tom in (as he put it) as an adventure along the way. That's the simple real world reason Tom is in the book. As the book went on, Tolkien had to fit Tom into his mythos, but I think he put all he knew about Tom in the statements and speculations about him in LOTR itself. Tolkien admitted he did not know any more about him and, while he enjoyed Tom (enough to write several poems about him),Tom did not improve with philosophizing. As you mention, Tolkien was a Catholic, and Catholics are comfortable with mysteries.
Amen, great comment because at the same time, in literary criticism what the author intended or didn't intend is irrelevant once the story is finished. What Shakespeare may have meant by aspects of Merchant of Venice is irrelevant even if we found documentary that seemed to be from himself stating it. As Northrop Frye said, Matthew Arnolds view of what a matthew Arnold poem means counts no more than anybody elses. I think he was quite happy to have 'unexplained shit ' dotted along the way.
I think he, or somebody, said that part HAD to be in there to show that the ring was NOT the most powerful thing in the world. It was 'concentrated evil' and there are always forces stronger than evil, ironically much like Tom they come in humourous form. Laughing at evil was always supposed to expunge it. I was just rereading The Silmarillion and there are stories in there that I think "it sure would be nice if somebody like Bombadil came along' because things get grim. And of course he WAS there somehwere. I've never really looked but I expect there must be a fan fiction site for Tolkien, that would make a good story.
Well, Tom has a symbolic meaning and actually fits the book's themes greatly. The purity and goodness of untouched nature, as compared to industrialisation and the works of man. Tom is ultimately the most modest and virtuous character in the novel, because he is one with Nature, the ring does not allure him. He has no ambitions, he just wishes to be what he is.
@@tj-co9go Well, as somebody who has spent a fair bit of time in nature there is little 'pure' and 'good' about it, but you are right, it just 'is'. Which is actually 'amoral'. Tom has the power to help, but wouldn't understand it and has no responsibility. Thats hardly 'virtue'. Thats kind of the point though, nature is amoral, as is Tom. Our struggles mean nothing to nature. But even though its likely Sauron would devastate everything, STILL Tom feels no 'moral imperative' to act. Despite even the Gods sending spirits over to help.
As mentioned, there are lots of 'dark things' in the world, ungoliant was of the world, and nameless things 'gnaw' at the earth that the whole narrative of elves and rings and even gods and silmarils don't even enter into.
@@mikearchibald744 if Tom is amoral then why did he rescue Merry and Pippin from old man willow at all?
@@the318pop For the reasons I gave above, because he HAD to, it was written that way. It was written as a mythology, not a nursery story. There is no "now the moral of this story is.."
I loved the time period where the only controversy in the lotr community was Tom Bombadil not being included in the movie.
You remember the first editions and the first movies.
You knew the dark under the stars when it was fun - when dark was the time to watch movies and read books before bed.
Before the dark times.
Before the Empire...!
There was actually much criticism of the movie adaptations or Peter Jackson's style and choices, especially in the second and third movies. I doubt leaving out Tom Bombadil was ever a serious topic, but just a standard joke. At least that's what it mostly was.
Well, the movies were the last adaptation so....😊😊
@@bfkc111I agree.👍 Definitely a lot worse decisions made in the trilogy than Tom Bombadil's absence. Especially the characterization of Faramir/Denethor, Frodo abandoning Sam, and Bilbo's absence at the Council of Elrond.
@@timothyblazer1749 Factual.
I started reading Tolkien in the late 60s. My impression has been that Tom and Goldberry were the embodiment of the Spirit of Nature, the sentience of the land itself, and the creatures that lived within it.
The positive aspect of silence from before there was the Song of the Ainur. Just like Ungolianth is the negative aspect and equally old. Well that's my explanation anyway. ^^
I concur.
This comment thread is fantastic.
Tom is the embodied spirit of Middle Earth.
@@bronwynbeistle8317 That's a good way to think of it. I also think that he's sort of inserted an aspect of himself into the story via Tom.
My own "head-canon" for the quandary that is Tom is as follows: Tom is Eru's first manifestation of his thought brought into existence. Eru had all these ideas about their creation swirling in his thoughts and decided to manifest one into being to explore the concept. An alpha prototype of what would come to be known as the Valar and Maiar. This is why Tom is "The Oldest" or "The First". I like to imagine the two of them conversing about all the possibilities of Eru's upcoming creation. Just the two of them in the Void bouncing ideas off each other. This is why the Ring has no power over Tom. That is who Tom is in my Adventures in Middle Earth Campaign and how I see them when I read Tolkien's Works. I feel that after Tom helped Eru he then decided he would like to spend some time and a lovely spot he helped to create.
Sri Bombadil, it could be declared: he wants for not a thing, reminding me of legendary Masters from the Eastern traditions, and thus gloriously impervious to the ring's lures. He is a rarity, with songs in his heart.💐
In the slightly more detailed timeline from the Unfinished Tales, the Witch King is in the Barrowdowns (stirring up the barrow-wights) at the same time the hobbits are in Tom Bombadil's house. So one explanation of Frodo wanting to sneak away was the Ring wanting to be taken to the Witch King, and ultimately Sauron. And Tom's house made a good hiding place for the hobbits, until the Witch King decided to move on. As a result of the barrow-wights, Merry ended up with the sword that helps to kill the Witch King.
And pippin also got a troll bane that let him save Beregond from the Troll a chieftain.
We may not know what Tom Bombadil is. But we do know what he represents emotionally. Which is a free and natural state of innocence, innocence that is mature and experienced and strong, not the fragile innocence of childhood but a mature, experienced innocence that cannot be lost easily. And Goldberry has this too, which is why the two of them are so natural together.
In addition to innocence, I would add profound humility.
Tom Bombadil didn't need Power; for he had Freedom.
Idea that formed itself while I was watching this video: If Tom is the genius loci of Arda’s life spirit, maybe the very reason the hobbits of the Shire were less corruptible than most of the Children of Ilúvitar was the fact that they had lived for some centuries that close to the center of Tom’s Mastery? Maybe they settled in that largely abandoned land as a crucial part of the designs of the Valar? And is that Tolkien’s conscious or unconscious concept, or just a slick little bit of retro-engineering?
When you discussed the ring wanting to leave Toms house it occurred to me that the ring knew it was in danger. Since Tom is the only being in the world who is not tempted by its power, Tom is the only one who could potentially destroy it.
Tom only has power within his realm.
I used to think Tom was something of an anti-Ungoliant. She was born from emptiness and chaos; he was born from the joyful life of Arda itself.
Nowadays I tend to think that Tom’s purpose is to give us something to talk about endlessly. Ring a dong dillo!
LOL. Anti ungoliant is a cool idea. Thats a good insight.
I like to think of Tom as Tolkien himself in the fantasy land of LOTR. Either that or, while in a world full of good and evil, or things/beings riding the line of both, there is also pure evil, but then there is Tom Bombadil. Truly happy, in a world of sorrow.
I always took Goldberry's answer to emphasize the first word, not the second.... *"He* is." versus "He *is."* Frodo asks "Who is Tom?", and she gives him a verbal nod and says "That guy there (he) is (Tom)" as an answer. Not so much a deep existential statement like "I am", but more saying "Tom Bombadil is just that guy you see, nothing more, nothing less." A wink from the author that this character was a lark. A fun diversion, but with no deeper meaning beyond what you see on the surface.
Well, Tom represents something that Tolkien felt important. That when you are pure of heart, and have no desire for power you can't be corrupted.
I still side on the Eru idea. And yes the “he is” is Tolkiens way of proclaiming “I am” without being heretical.
Tom's just this guy, you know?
Tom Bombadil appears to be the epic version of Tolkien's personification of his personal (boyish) love and joy for wild green places . I can see Tolkien all throughout his life wandering in the woods and hills and musing how grand it would have been to be the first person to ever see a place like this, to imagine, with boyish imagination that he was that first person to see it in all it's pristine glory and how much contentment he would have felt if it were so. In a way Tom Bombadil feels like a Peter Pan version of Professor Tolkien, the first living spirit in Arda so captivated and overjoyed by the life surrounding him that he never wanted anything more and never grew old.
That's rather profound, i can say that that never actually occurred to me...
I am so glad you said this because I can’t agree more. I’ve always felt pretty strongly that Tom is Tolkien
personified in the story. He literally wrote himself into the story as a character, disguised as this mysterious being that doesn’t really fit into any of the well defined categories of beings in middle earth. I think a smoking gun clue is the detail that he existed, somehow, even before the Valar, Ea, and Iluvatar. Who other than Tolkien, the Creator of the creators and created, could this be?
@@DrillForAbsentee Uh, where did it say he was there before Iluvatar? I missed that. That is an interesting view, and quite possible, to the point of him being a fairly round sort of comic figure, but of course having a babe there to keep him company:)
But if you are looking for archetypes the 'mischievous imp' is quite common in both nordic and eastern literature. Comic sidemen who are somehow above the fray occur fairly regularly enough.
I had read though that Tolkien thought he was ESSENTIAL to the story, to show that some things were above the rings power. Tom certainly seems 'of the earth incarnate', and of course Saurons ring was MADE. Sauron 'made shit' and put his power into them. Tolkiens view has always been that the earth is sacred, the manufactured is profane. No being can 'make' something that can outmatch what is 'spiritually made'. If you remember there's a line in LOTR where they say that even if Sauron wins, there will be places that escape him.
And on that spirit, while thats a neat view, it doesn't actually 'mean' much because that would be Tolkien 'manufacturing' a character to put into a story thats supposed to be 'spiritually made', if you understand that glibness.
@@mikearchibald744 Ok, I'm working from these quotes: "“Who is Tom Bombadil?” “He is,” said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling. Frodo looked at her questioningly. “He is, as you have seen him,” she said in answer to his look." Also, Tom calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn." You're right: I'm stating that he existed before everything else like that is a straight fact, when it's not. That's an interpretation (particularly driven by the "he is" descriptor."
@@DrillForAbsentee I got that, I just meant the idea that he was before Eru, which seems a stretch. That he was at least ONE of the first 'things' or 'beings' on the planet when the Vala first looked at. Except of course trees and rain could have come later, as all along the story claims things were differnet, for example there was no sun or moon at first.
Sorry but I was thinking more of what I wrote and now I'm off track. There seems to be TWO kinds of power, one is the power that is put INTO things. Melkor becomes weaker because he's putting his power 'into stuff' and all the dark things around him.
The other power is the power OF stuff. So Tom is the OPPOSITE 'movement' of that. Morgoth and Sauron put hteir power INTO things. Sauron is putting his power INTO the ring, I don't know exactly what that means, thats sort of something I'm trying to figure out. The OPPOSITE process is power of things going INTO something, which seems to be what Tom Bombadil is.
Thats 'the earth' being concentrated into a thing, the opposite process of an evil being putting their power into an object. Sorry Im' off track here, I was reading articles on 'the power of things' and the symbolism of the talisman.
Its not totally hobby as these questions are kind of germane to religion in general, not just fiction. Sorry for 'talking out loud' here on your thread. I think you are right about everything up to thinking he's older even that Eru. Eru doesn't get a lot of talk because people just 'assume' its god, when in fact its a creator, we are all 'creators', Tolkien is 'Eru', all myth makers are Eru. Myths are not jsut things 'outside you'.
Anyway, just thinking out loud, sorry to go off on your thread, I do agree with you except that one part.
Tom Bombadil is more likely a nickname given to him, like when a child calls their favorite person a nickname that stays instead of their actual name.
He is also very removed from the limited history the reader and the hobbits can gleam about the world around them. There is the Unseen world that cannot be seen by most beings that live in the physical world, Elves can see both the real and the Unseen world. Tom's physical body doesn't exist in the Unseen world but his spirit does, which Goldberry seems to see.
He has traveled the world of Middle Earth, made paths, seen many wars and survived cataclysmic events. He has since settled in the Old Forest because its one of the last living remnants of a greater world, as its probably closest to where he feels at home in a world that has changed so much throughout the Ages of Middle Earth.
Tom can also probably shapeshift his physical body, so it doesn't matter what body he has, his immortal spirit hasn't changed, as Goldberry says, He is. Tom Bombadil is just the current 'name' for ancient spirit housed in a body, so that the hobbits and the reader can feel comfortable while getting a deeper look into the nature of Middle Earth.
For me, Tom represents in a very real way the music of the ainur uncorrupted by Melkor. He represents how the world would be without the discord of melkor and what the world could have been if the earth had not been corrupted from Morgoth's touch.
Tom demonstrates mastery through music and song, the very foundation of reality in the legendarium. His limits and boundaries are self imposed and his interests are confined to the beauty of existing. He is uneffected by the Discord of Melkor because he is empowered by Eru, you could even argue that Tom's origin comes from Eru's response in the music to the discord, when Eru sang over Melkor and put him in his place.
I have been binging your content, lol! Keep up the great work!
It takes serious humility and self awareness to admit to oneself that they arent incorruptible, think of Gandalf refusing to take the ring.
How many of us are this honest with ourselves while we cry about others abuse of their power? So glad I stumbled across the 10day silent Vipassana courses. Best thing I ever did.
Tom was always my favorite. Loved the lesser known stories from Tolkien!
First time seeing your channel. Good stuff, my theory is that Tom is a special type of self insertion. An allegorical story he wrote is Leaf by Niggle, in the end Niggle, the allegorical Tolkien gets by the grace of god to work on his painted landscape, makes sense to me Tom is Niggle is the professor, also Goldberry is a bit of a giveaway nymph like and magically charming, she can only be Edith. Thanks I’ll check more of your stuff when I get the chance.
Hi. New sub here. Randomly stumbled upon your channel and like what I heard.
Over the decades I've been reading Tolkien, this is a topic I had many different thoughts on. I finally settled on this one: *Tom is Father Time, and Goldberry is Mother Nature.*
Once you think of Tom as a manifestation of Time itself, almost everything else falls into place and starts to make sense. He is the Master of rocks, trees, and hills because nothing escapes the march of time. He was the First (as in the first thing in Arda), because nothing else can transpire unless Time exists for causality to occur.
When he said he came upon the hobbits by chance, but was still expecting to meet them, it's because he already knew the future. He IS the past, present, and future all at once. Wherever he currently is, or ever will be, is all preordained, as unchanging as wherever he has already been. So it WAS by chance that he was nearby to save the hobbits from Old Man Willow, but then he would also know to expect meeting them. Similarly, he knows the hobbits would get caught by the barrow wight, despite giving them stern warnings to avoid the downs, so he teaches them his song. This is an odd thing to do because the hobbits would have passed beyond his Lands by morning. When did Tom think his song would have been useful if not that very same night? It would be like telling your teenaged kid not to use the car, but then giving them gas money.
The Ring doesn't affect Tom because he also exists simultaneously in a time before the Ring was created and after it was destroyed. It cannot influence anything outside its own timeline. Similarly, Tom can make the Ring disappear because he is the Master of Time (think of it as "shifting" the Ring out of phase). This is also why he is able to see (or perhaps simply intuit) where Frodo is, because he already knows where and when Frodo will take off the Ring. Gandalf even remarks that Tom would make a poor steward of the Ring because he'd view it as a trifle and discard it. Tom is, in essence, infinity, knowing the fate of all things, and thus the ultimate futility of sentimentality. It's why he can be both carefree and happy one second, and utterly morose the next. He knows the end of all things.
The only flaw in this theory that I can think of is when Gandalf says that if Sauron regains the Ring, then Tom would likely be the last to fall, but fall he will. I have trouble picturing any scenario in which Sauron becomes powerful enough to destroy time itself. A second minor flaw is the fact that Tom seems to be bound to a relatively small area of land. However, I think this was just Tolkien's way of keeping Tom out of the main plot, similar to why the eagles didn't just fly Frodo to Mount Doom. It's a plot hole, sure, but it isn't really worth banging your head against a wall to rationalize.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter. Hope they at least proved entertaining, if not thought-provoking. Cheers!
I've never heard this theory before. I like this a lot! Another theory to throw in the pot, lol
This almost works, except for the detail about Tom and Goldberry being local spirits. I tend to think of Goldberry being a subordinate of Ulmo, but Tom is just a playful spirit of nature who just has nothing to do with technocracy like the Rings, but would succumb if Sauron eradicated all natural countryside as he had done to Mordor.
The utube Gods threw this channel my way as well..love it when that happens :) Especially when I find a channel with an awesome comment section..yours was a delight to read btw
Definitely a substantial theory. And I'll add, the first flaw you pointed out, almost works itself out through your own explanation above. If Tom was the first in Arda, and IF Sauron destroyed the world(or I suppose unmade it), it would make sense he would fall last, end time and what have you. Plus, I mean Gandalf said it. 😉
@@abj136 Yeah, it's not a perfect theory, and there are probably more flaws to it than I pointed out. For a long time my opinion used to be: "Tolkien liked mystery, and even he probably had no idea who or what Tom Bombadil is, so don't think on too much." But with so much depth and detail given to all other Middle Earth lore, this did not satisfy my desire to know that Tom must have had a place within it. So I crafted a rationale I thought fit best.
In some ways, it's how a journey takes you in unexpected situations, a plot ruin, a little lightness before the plunge, and something fun and whimsical. Also, again it is very much a function.
This is what I love about a great author. There is so much to ponder, to form opinions on, to discuss and share. Thank you great video!
This is a subject that gets the melon cooking! Lol I've always thought of Tom as part of the plan by Eru! He's there to assist in fate! That's the great thing about this its open to personal interpretation. Just subbed brother!
I still like to think of Tom Bombadil as simply being an aspect of Eru Ilúvatar. IIRC Tolkien denies that, and said there is no embodiment of the creator in the story. But I'll nitpick that away and say "well technically" that isn't Eru Ilúvatar, but just a part of him. After all, the Tolkien creator-deity shares a lot of things with Tolkien's own religion's creator deity, and dividing a deity up into many parts represented by different people or things is something he was familiar with.
Except is he really? Many have commented that Jackson did just fine skipping him. Part of that is certainly because a guy in yellow boots dancing around and singing doesn't really fit with the glower he created. But apart from that adventure and the council mentioning him, what fate does he assist?
But somebody mentioned him as the 'anti ungoliant'. I get the feeling that chick would have eaten that ring for lunch. Remember that Gollum figures even just Shelob would eat Frodo and shit out the ring. Ungoliant wouldn't have even burped, she messed up Melkor for petes sake. And she's still out there somewhere! Holy crap run!
I believe that, within the Discord of Melkor, there is room for a lot of things not planned by Eru or the Valar. Ungoliant, The Nameless Things, The Watcher in the Water, & the Spirits that would end up becoming Vampires, Werewolves & Dragons.....I believe that Tom Bombadil is one of these creations. So not too different from your own hypothesis.
except that i believe even the Discord was encompassed by Eru.
@@abj136 The 'supposed' claim is that EVERYTHIGN comes from Eru. "In the beginning there was Eru, the one, who in Arda is called Iluvatar" or something like that. The claim is that eventually those black things will find out they did but serve a purpose. Thats the age old defence of evil in the world. We can't explain evil, so we take a meaning that "well, in the end it will all make sense". Thats a rationalizaiton of course.
But thats true, although Tom is of a different sort than dragons, which were bred by melkor. Pretty sure theres a line in the Silmarillion where Tolkien pops him in. So he's more like the Ents, which Yavannah, or whatever her name is, got whatsisname to send over to middle earth to protect the trees.
So he would be more like the wizards or Sauron. Pretty sure Sauron is called of a kind with the wizards. There is no real explaining why he is much more powerful. The thing with the ring is that power grows the more it is used, but ultimately it can't overcome, well, I don't know, I just made that up.
But in LOTR he even says 'the world is gnawed by nameless thigns', thats probably what you meant, sorry. An important point to thatis the Eru 'introduces' 'the world' to the valar. But there is no notion of how long it had been there. OR, a thought just occured to me, the valar supposedly CAME from his thought. So whose to say the entirety of creation hadn't gone on cyclical forevre BEFORE the valar and THEIR song was actually the history of some other 'middle earth' that had come before. THAT is the 'ending' that they prophesize all the way along for ALL Eru's children. All the people and beings and everything that exists then becomes the notes for NEW songs with a whole new host of vala and a whole new middle earth. First I thought of that, thats a cool idea, thanks for helping me think of it! Have a good one.
Tom is Ainur, but neither Vala or Maia. He came to Arda before any of them. That's why he is First. He is his own master, not beholding to any Vala, like the Maia are.
First time watcher, gonna dive into your backlog. I find it difficult to find time to read, and I've never had the chance to go through this series in full.
The "red metal" of the ancient sword invokes the Bronze Age and the weapons used then.
Bombadil and Goldberry remind me a lot of Daniel and Marty in the end of Frank Herbert's 1985 novel Chapterhouse: Dune.
Different and yet similar.
I always just thought he was Tolkien inserting himself into his own story.
Same here.
@@kendevries3212 I think Bombadil might be like an idealized self. Iirc Beren is his actual self insert because Luthien is explicitly his wife. I think Goldberry is similarly there for Tom to represent his ideal happy rural domestic life.
That was Faramir
I don't think I've heard that one before but I love it great idea.
In "The Silmarillion": The three mountains (Redhorn, Cloudyhead, Silvertine) were raised up by Morgoth to hinder the riding of Orome the Hunter, and he placed evil spirits within them (the way he did with the Dragons and Wolves).
Tom is basically the Green Man of Celtic Mythology, a nature personification.
it says nothing of the sort. It makes no specific reference to three mountains nor anything about evil spirits.
have you read the Silmarillion?
Tom is likely not the Green Man of celtic mythology since he mostly bases it on nordic mythology.
@@MrChickennugget360 I read it a long time ago, so I don't remember which one of you two is right.
The mountains you mentioned are part of the Misty Mountains, which were formed naturally in the early ages of Arda (the world in which the events of "The Silmarillion" take place). They were not created by Morgoth, the main antagonist of the book.
Morgoth did hinder the riding of Oromë the Hunter in J.R.R. Tolkien's legendarium. Oromë, also known as Aldaron or Tauron, was one of the Valar, the powerful divine beings in Tolkien's mythology. He was the Huntsman of the Valar and a great rider.
When the Valar first arrived in Middle-earth to wage war against Morgoth, Oromë rode across the land, hunting and exploring. However, Morgoth, the Dark Lord, sensed his presence and sent forth various creatures and evil spirits to hinder Oromë's movements and harass him. These evil creatures, including monsters and demons, would often attack Oromë and his hunting parties, making it difficult for him to freely explore and hunt.
@@eponaalbion Yes but a Vala such as Melkor can alter natural creatures and features. That's how we got Ents (Yavanna) and talking Eagles (Manwe). And don't forget the dwarves (Aüle).
It is explicitly stated that Morgoth raised up these mountains and put evil wills or spirits within them, as he did with wolves and dragons, as part of his "anti-Orome measures".
My memory may not serve me in that it may not be in the Silmarillion, but I'm almost sure that it is.
How else could a mountain get mad that people are climbing on it (especially enemies of Morgoth) and dump snow on them till they stop?!
@@Nunya_Bidness_53 Right but in J.R.R. Tolkien's legendarium, Melkor (also known as Morgoth) did raise up mountains to hinder Oromë the Hunter. However, there is no specific mention of him placing evil spirits within those mountains for the purpose of blocking Oromë's movements.
According to the texts in "The Silmarillion," when the Valar initially descended into Middle-earth to wage war against Melkor, he used his great power to create massive mountain ranges and fortifications. These mountain ranges, including the Iron Mountains (Ered Engrin) and the Thangorodrim, were intended to serve as barriers and defenses against the Valar and their allies.
While it is not explicitly stated that these mountains were raised specifically to block Oromë, they did play a role in hindering the Valar's activities and isolating certain regions. The primary intent behind Melkor's creation of these mountain ranges was to establish strongholds and fortify his own position in his rebellion against the Valar.
I think Tolkien was just having a bit of fun. It was in a way a cheerful whimsical escape from the overcasting gloom of the story. A sort of musical way to remind the reader to stop and smell the flowers. Not everything is so gloom and doom in the world and we should learn to appreciate these simple little joys that come in the way of our own journeys in life!
I also stand by my disappointment in the fact that Robin Williams would had made an amazing Tom Bombadil in the Peter Jackson Adaptation. Such a missed opportunity! Imagine if you will Robin Williams in that glorious yellow hat and flowing beard prancing along so gaily singing his merry ol' song right before he stumbles upon the halflings in need of his rescuing.
I don't care if Jackson felt that Tom's character did not seem to contribute much to the story. A Robin Williams take on the character would had been something amazing and worthy of the silver screen! Heck, at least for the extended edition!
If I could ever have a sit and a beer with Jackson, I would discuss this extensively and why Bombadil should had been included in the movie. He might still disagree, but I'd hope to give him some pause and consideration despite the films already have been made and Robin Williams unfortunately long gone from this existence. Rest In Peace you very silly man!
Oh, glad i got here at the start, this channel is going to be big.
I remember buying The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, a long poem in the 1970s and the version I got also had other stories in it. I remember one was Farmer Giles of Ham and the other was Smith of Wootton Major. I enjoyed the two stories, but was rather disappointed by the Adventures because I didn't know it was a poem and I wasn't really into dissecting poetry at the time. It wasn't a very big paperback. Wished I still had it, but it disappeared like so many things in my life of 70+ years.
@@mikearchibald744 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@MountainFisher you can probably download it somewhere if you want to re-read it one more time.
Boy, listening to his prose is really special. Thanks for reading!
You earned a sub simply by your channel name.
In my opinion that warcry is the most iconic moment in the history of ALL mankind in Tolkien's legendarium.
I always felt he was Eru himself.
Tom is Tolkien himself. He is the creator of the world. He is the deus ex machina who saves Frodo when necessary… who cannot be tempted by the ring because he transcends it… but who cannot protect it because he is not a “true” part of the story.
Yes!
Would the creator not be Eru Ilúvatar? (with that said, I like the idea that Tom Bombadil is just an aspect of Eru Ilúvatar who is living within his creation, so that nitpick aside, I'm on board with your theory here.
@@Wedgenet - Yes, but given Tolkien’s Christian theology, it is not hard to consider how the one creator could be known through different “persons”… Eru Iluvatar in his transcendent nature and Tom in a more imminent form.
when utube throws an awesome channel your way...and you know when you will get home that you are going to binge watch.
Thanks man! That's so awesome to hear!
Having heard our Mother-tongue in the womb, we're born able to mimic its rhythm and cadence (French babies do not 'sing' like English). We learn the form of words, and the voids between them, before the words themselves, and literally sing our language (and, by extension, our world) into being. Tom is our First Burble, our Ceremony of Innocence, the Nativity of the Will to Sing.
It was by chance I came across your channel. I'm happy to be here as my area only gets internet service sporadically. (One good reason I cannot afford to be on discord discussions, I don't exist long online and have to budget where I go.)
In music sometimes instruments give off wolf tones, sympathetic tones and even wolf beats that are not remotely the note, pitch or rhythm a musician was aiming for. An instrumentalist could be playing an "A" while another might be playing a "D" and a wolf tone unexpected or planned could sound its own sharp "E". Tom might be his own instrument, unexpected by even the valar and in a sense his own vala. (Not beyond Eru to weave his will though!) This could explain where even Ungoliant came from thanks to Melkor's musical ensemble. Tom though is not like the dark spirits but more akin to those in Valinor. I also think this is the other reason the ring doesn't tempt him. I think he is of a higher level than a simple maiar. Galadriel, even Gandalf and Saurman can be tempted by the ring. Tom is not. Also as the Valar are linked to Arda and can't leave it, neither can Tom. Also consider this...
If Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel and all the wizards, even combining their strengths, would fall before Tom would, what does this say about Tom's level of power? It also suggests the ability of the ring to amplify Sauron's power. I doubt he simply did a straight trade of his being into the ring without a chance of getting a power upgrade by pouring a key part of his 'being' into the ring.
Since I can't be consistently on every channel or social media, feel free to use my thoughts, though it would be kind if someone credited my existence.
I love this!
Seems clear to me that Gandalf considered him a kindred spirit, albeit with a different set of goals. As Gandalf was a maia, I think Tom being a maia makes sense. We know from the story of Melian (and balrogs) that there were maia who lived in middle earth vs in Valinor. If we believe Tom to be truthful, he could have been the first of the Ainur to come to middle earth, making him the "eldest". Thanks for the video! JW
This is how I interpret it also. My guess is that he is the first one who "found" the rock where the Valar would create the home for the Children of Iluvatar. He was literally the first, who welcomed everyone else, even the Valar, to Middle-Earth. Orome (probably) taught the first elf children to reverence him and called him "First" and "Eldest".
Tom is Tolkien's version of the Green Man. As you said, he is the personification of the land itself, and thus has the power of the land, uncorrupted.
I agree.
Authors don't necessarily ALWAYS have a grand purpose for everything they put into their books. Tolkien just liked Tom & wanted to squeeze him into LOTR.
I’m of two thoughts on this, which may be the same thing.
1 - as you said he is the soul of the land. The place manifesting as soul
2 - he is a Maia who bound himself to the land at its creation, the soul manifesting the place.
Nice picture of The Old Man in the background. Only one day after the anniversary of his demise.
I think that, in terms of the plot, the characters (as well as the reader) need a break. They've been travelling for a while; they need rest. In terms of world-building, we get to see a powerful entity (Nature itself) that gives us some information of what the world was like in the beginning.
Tom Bombadill was egoless; hence the ring had no power over him. The power of the ring is ego power and nothing else, hence evil. Why else would Sauron be depicted as The Eye or more appropriately the "I."
I think Tom Bombadil represents what is at stake. An incarnation of bliss and living in harmony and joy with(in) nature, together with your love and friends. A utopia that could be achieved if we were somehow able to purge evil from creation. That is, within canon, undo the discord Melkor caused within the song of creation.
Wow, the comments section is full of great insights. I never thought of that before, cool idea. Its kind of supposedly supposed to be what happens after they destroy the ring? Aragorn is supposedly going to bring about a peace like that?
I'm not a chapter and verse scripture guy, but as I recall we have the savior with "chance and circumstance comes to every man". There are portions of Tolkien's prose which seem to echo or recall scripture. Fantastic stuff, thanks!
I always thought Tom was a member of ZZ Top..😜🎶🎶🎶🎶
Gandalf thinks of him as a Maia. At the end of the trilogy he talks about having a long chat with Tom and basically says that he has been a wanderer and Tom has stayed put.
another way to look at 'fate' in LOTR is there are moments sang into the tapestry of world during the creation symphony before the beginning of time.
How did this video blow up? Great video, too! Congrats. I'm looking forward to more viral videos to come.
New sub here as well. I was pleasantly surprised to see you pop up in my feed & I'm enjoying your content. Keep up the great work!
I have recently though of Ton Bombadil as some form of "the earth it self" or maybe "nature it self", his chance, and unplanned ....Planneed-ness and his descrition things brings me to think of life erupting and seaons falling, the randomness of creation (that he does not control) all to me speaks of Bombadil as some of personification of "nature itself"
Elrond says "strength to resist Sauron is not in Tom, unless it is in the earth itself." Hence, Tom is an expression, or spirit of Middle Earth itself.
I agree with what I believe it was that Matt Colville said about Tom Bombadil; You have to remember that Tolkien was writing an epic myth and that this is the hero's journey. The hobbits start in a place of innocence and leave to a dangerous world. They leave the Shire into the dark woods. The woods are still a place of innocence, but they are darker hinting of a bigger world beyond. They meet Tom in the woods, he represents another stop on the hero's journey. A knifes edge between innocence and maturity. Tom is almost an eternal teenager. The hero is balancing on an edge. Of course Frodo tries to get away, but you cannot sneak away from that sort of thing. You must stand up and walk away a little wiser for the experience. The time spent with Tom is confusing, but aren't the teen years confusing when the brain is rewiring. Tom is unafraid, the master but not responsible. The hero is not fully mature when he leaves but he is getting there. We may never know who Tom is in the mythos of middle earth, but we can know who he is on the hero's journey. He is. He is Tom Bombadil.
I've always been of the opinion that Tom Bombadil was Eru on the flesh, but lately, I've been thinking that Tom is the spirit of the Flame Imperishable.
This is the video I've been waiting for literally for years. I've been commenting on RUclips videos and telling my friends and stuff for years that Tom was in some way the embodiment of the music. We know he isn't "from outside", and that he has always been in Middle Earth since the beginnings of things. What's was the first thing, at the instant of Middle Earth's creation? The music.
My theory will seem elementary compared to a lot of these comments but I've settled on imagining Tom as "Father Time" and Goldberry as "Mother Earth". Tom was "needing to get flowers for Goldberry" as in, life/nature does not just manifest, but it takes TIME to grow. As Tom mentioned being there before all other things. Even the council mentioning both his great "power" but also his indifference to something even so evil as the one ring. "Time waits for no man" as they say.
Wow, another good one. I think you need to put more meat into that theory, but its a cool idea. Power certainly has no effect on 'time'. But being 'time', whew, that a BIG symbol. Time is the ocean we drown in as they say.
@@mikearchibald744 Hey thanks so much!!
@@twistplusfriends yes, good theory. He is rather timeless, but still seasonal.
Goldsberry is Nature, or a spirit of it.
Bombadil could be the Green Man.
In regards to the barrow downs in the final chapters of return of the king I believe it is Gandalf that says the of the barrows that they were raised by the first men a repurposed. It may be in the appendices.
the Ring used Frodo to flee in fear from Bombadil, an existential threat
probably the best description of tom i have ever heard
So, something that always kind of poked out to is in his verse he says he met his lady and her heart was beating.
What could that mean?
If Tom was the music he would not say the dark lord from outside because they're both from the same place. I bet he's the creator of the story. Only the author was there before everything.
Tom said he was there before the dark lord fell from the sky. This doesn't mean he existed before Melkor, just before Melkor descended into Arda.
Even then, according to the Legendarium, Melkor wandered the wide vastness of Arda while the other Valar worked to create the earth, sky, and stars. Then Melkor returned, descending upon the land with great might and splender. I think THIS is the moment that Tom is referring to.
I am with you on Tom as what you might call ‘the embodiment of the land’ but he has a specific role, in my view; his job is to demonstrate that while all the beings inhabiting Middle-Earth across the ages have worked their works and fought their fights and raised their little (or great) kingdoms and come and gone, the land - or nature, or the natural world - has existed alongside all these upheavals but, most importantly, it will always exist despite them too. His not being affected by the Ring, for instance, shows that while the works of Sauron impact on the races and history of the world immensely, the rain will still fall, the sun will still rise, the wind will still blow, that there are aspects of creation beyond the reach of the beings who choose to exert their power. It’s a fundamentally important point to get into the story, that while all these battles and struggles are stretching across the various nations and tribes, the world upon which they fight just keeps on turning. Tom is the physical manifestation of the eternal continuity of the land versus the fleeting shapes of those who crawl upon it, no matter how great any of them might seem for a time.
I had forgotten where that line "destroyers and usurpers" had originated...Treebeard exclaims it at some point in the Jackson films. It's been a minute since I watched those so not sure the exact point when that occurs lol
What happens if a group of Orks crosses Tom's path in the forest? Did Sauron reacted in Baradur in any way when Tom used the ring???
Okay as a Tolkienite, I have an answer... The Publishers made him put Tom Bombadil in the LotR series. Tom does not belong in Middle Earth, but part of a series of short stories about worldbuilding of a different world similar to his friends C. S. Lewis's Narnia. The original Tom was part of a series of short stories the publishers liked a lot and wanted that known character in the books. So, to make him fit, Tolkien made him above all the rest. He knew the Ents when they were young, he saw the first of the Elves come from the undying lands. No one not even the Eldar knew from whence he came. So on and so forth. If Tolkien had his way, from then on, Tom, would have been a narrator to the histories since he is the only one to have seen it all. Tom had an affinity to the hobbits since they were a lower sample of the race that came from the first children of Tom and Goldenberry. These ideas were cut by the publisher, not to detract from the story they wanted to publish. Just like Tolkien Hated the title of the third book. He said it gave an important plot point away and ruined all of his hard work. In the original work, if you can find them, Tom was the embodiment of the wise old farmer in the Shire that knew everything. What he had was enough and to want anything more was being greedy. You could say in the LotR, he made Tom equal to God, since he was God in the other stories.
1. I seem to recall remarks by Tolkien that it was his intention that Tom Bombadil be ambiguous. If my memory is correct about that, any identification of Tom that we come up with is more about who we perceive Tom to be than about what or whom Tolkien meant him to be.
2. That said, your identification of Tom is the only one I've heard that makes sense to me.
3. I've never been able to read _The Silmarillion_ in its entirety; I get lost in the elvish histories, with the proverbial cast of thousands but an extremely short list of names that are used repeatedly. But a friend of mine who'd read the whole thing told me that he thought he'd figured out which of the gods Tom Bombadil is, and that the answer was shocking. And then my friend died in an accident without ever telling me exactly who he thought Tom Bombadil was, or why. It may be a fruitful line of inquiry for someone who has a greater ability to deal with _The Silmarillion_ than I have.
Could it be possible that there is not one single explanation of who Tom is. Reading the Lord of the Rings I have often reflected on this chapter and it doesn't seem to fit and yet it does. Yes, there is fluidity to the rest of the whole story, but I've often thought could it be possible that this is thoughts that Tolkien had prior to the Lord of the Rings and when parts of the whole were written this narrative was inserted. My belief is that Tom is a symbol, but at some level a manifestation of Tolkien himself into the narrative. Clearly Tom is NOT Eru or any of the Ainu, who else would be impervious to the destructive power of the ring?
As someone in a youtube comment once pointed out: goldberry is probably saying "HE is" (pointing at Tom). This also explains why for her it is a complete sentence.
I'm no more crazy about the "embodiment of the land" than I am about the "embodiment of Eru". I'm with you that I don't think Tolkien worked it out himself preferring Tom to be a mystery. That said, if we constrain our thinking to Tolkien's ontological structure, then he has to be an Ainu. He can't be one of the Valar, but an extremely powerful Ainu that has no desire to rule in Middle Earth. This fits with the message of the Lord of the Rings quite nicely, and I'll explain below.
First, I want to point out that this fits with Goldberry possibly being a Maia. Goldberry is the "river-woman's daughter." Despite saying "river-woman" I think this could be a reference to the Maiar of Ulmo, and perhaps she's the offspring of two Maia.
So consider the resistance of the Hobbits to the ring. Most other beings are easily corrupted by the ring because they have power and seek power. The Hobbits at best simply want to take the ring and hide with it so they can admire its beauty. They don't particularly want power, merely contentment. They almost seem bred for a quiet life. This makes them the perfect candidates for seeing to the eventual destruction of the one ring. In fact, including Gollum, the ring was in the possession of Hobbits for about the last 600 years of its existence until finally being destroyed by them. It's this message of not seeking power that Tom Bombadil fits into. He has mastery over the forest, but doesn't seek to be its master. He lives in a forest that seems at least as well protected as Doriath by the Girdle of Melian. I think Goldberry could well do this without Tom's help. Tom isn't affected by the ring because he has zero desire for power though he is probably the most powerful being in Middle Earth. This places him well above and out of the sphere of influence of the ring. The ring is nothing to him and he cares nothing for it one way or the other. He is the antithesis of Melkor and his power-seeking minions like Sauron.
That said, his presence in Middle Earth is intentional I think, but not of his own design. He wasn't sent to rule Middle Earth and he didn't request to come. But he's content to be there and enjoy Eru's creation. Also, I think his very close proximity to the Hobbits is intentional, even interacting with some of them occasionally. I think he created the Hobbits as an expression of his own self-contentment. They are perhaps a part of his song to Eru Iluvatar.
For the account of the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf and Elrond know he's there, but will do precisely - nothing. And that's the point. Aragorn shares his contentment apart from power enough to not seek the throne of Gondor. Gandalf understands that this same trait is what makes the Hobbits ideal for the task and in a way, Elrond agrees. So his continued presence is didactic to the influencers on the good side. If only Saruman had learned this lesson. Saruman probably thought that Tom was foolish.
I tended to subscribe to the theory that Tom is the personification of the Song of Creation which can explain why he is the oldest on, and so masterfully bonded with, Middle Earth. But this theory beggars the question why Tom confines himself to such a restricted area of Middle Earth rather than being kind of omnipresent in it. So I like this new idea (to me) that Tom is a genius loci, the manifestation of the spirit of his environment.
IMHO Only Yavanah could answer who is Tom Bombadil. A powerful force of nature. Treebeard was never asked.
So, about a year ago I saw 'Nerd of the Rings" "Five Great Tom Bombadil Theories" video, and made this comment:
'm hardly a Ring nerd, but somehow this video came up in my suggestions. I do love the character of Tom though, so I watched this. When you got to the final suggestion, it led off with a picture of Tolkein, this gave me a instant flash of who he is and what (alas not) what the final theory would be. He is the author insertion character. He is the incarnation of Tolkein himself.
I still think that it holds up. Of course Tom was "before, blah, blah". Who had to be, if not Tolkein himself?
Just as a reminder about the Ents, we do know their origin, when Aule creates the dwarves Yavanna is worried for the plants and so she asks Eru for permission to create the Ents
YES!! FINALY!! I've always thought Tom was a spirit of the land, it's there in the words of both Tom and Goldberry, and remember also that Tolkien was a great lover of nature, especially trees. He revered nature as a creation of his God. I like the explanation that the Ring can't affect Tom because he doesn't desire power or anything beyond what he already has/is. As for why did Frodo put on the Ring in Tom's house, it's explained in the text - Frodo became suspicious as to whether Tom actually gave him back the real Ring, probably prodded by the power of the Ring itself. Tom saw him wearing it because, again, its power doesn't touch hm.
How about this for a wild thought?
Tom Bombadil is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna.
To me, Tom Bombadil is an avatar. An avatar is defined as a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth (in this case Middle Earth); an incarnate divine teacher. That is, an incarnation, embodiment, or manifestation of a person or idea. Tom is the embodiment of the natural world, which existed unspoiled by man. I loved this chapter so early on in the epic tale that I feel helped establish the beauty and wonder of nature. He is a sort of innocence, which makes Saruman’s destruction of the forest that much more despicable, though I doubt that’s what Tolkien intended. For me, it made Middle Earth a more magical and deeper world of mysteries that is even beyond the ken of even the elves. I’m not saying this is true or what Tolkien intended, but just that it’s my interpretation that works for me in giving Tom’ appearance a meaning.
We are close in our guesses as to what is Tom. For myself, I think of Tom as the personification (embodiment, spirit) of the song of creation.
I kinda agree with your assessment of Tom but I have a slightly alternate version which I've always thought. Tom is a physical maifestation of the music of the Ainur. When Eru said Eä, the "World and All That Is" Arda came into being. When the world came into being Tom was there from the start 'before the dark Lord came from outside'. While he is also a spirit that represents the land as you say, his proclivity for song and rhyme has always made me think of the music of the Ainur.
That sounds pretty close. Except that it doesn't say much. The WORLD is a physical manifestation of the song, but what does that MEAN. And Tom is not the same as the world, he has speech, WHY does he have speech? What does it actually mean to 'represent' something? You get a hypothesis like that you got to draw it out in a youtube for as long as this one is and explain it:)
@@mikearchibald744 Well I don't make videos so I can't explain it in that detail but in short the world is the physical manifestation of the music, Tom represents the Living embodiment of the world. The plants, tree and the animals, maybe also the sentient life Elves, Men etc. I think Gandalf said something at the Council like 'If Sauron concurs then even Tom will fall, last as he was first.' If there is no more life on Arda then Tom will cease. That's my interpretation anyway, and the whole point of Tom is there is no true answer. Tolkien designed him as an enigma.
@@markoconnor7163 There's no true answer, but the point of literature isn't finding a true answer, but learning more about life from searching for answers.
And of course ALL characters are enigmas and open to many similar questions. But you just repeated yourself first, but good point, I'd forgotten that quote, last as he was first.
But being first doesn't necessarily mean any more than chronology. I'd have to reread that part of the silmarillion that does the chronology and what exactly was there and when. But a couple of other insights others had were that one guy said he was 'time', which is an interesting idea, another mentioned that he only shows up when he is needed. So that kind of rings with what you say, the 'earth' helps out the protagonist when they need help, otherwise the story is over. But guardian angels and lucky leprechauns also do that.
But being first doesn't necessarily mean that, so I'm trying to think of other examples besides the one you give, in Tolkien or even in other fairie stories. Like the guy with 'time', being the incarnation of the whole planet is a big symbol. Its not finding the one true answer, but looking for ones that can be validated. The 'time' one seems a stretch, yours has more validity than that, but I'm still not sure. Although I certainly haven't come up with anything better. Usually in movies its just another character who 'shows up in the nick of time', but this is obviously different. But your right, there is not definitive answer. But I hadn't thought about tolkien in awhile before seeing this site, that was a good reminder, that in the whole world he was first, AND he would be last. That statement could have been melodrama though, after all, we really don't even KNOW from Tolkien whats in all of the eastern earth.
But the first and last thing on earth is like a guardian angel who ONLY ever seems to show up to save Frodo, nowhere else in all middle earth. Of course thats the point where we can say 'thats enough, we're thinking about it too much'. But I'm going to reread that council of elrond for more clues, thanks for that. Somebody else mentioned Pan, as a similar trope, although as you say, Tom seems a bigger character than just some comic helper. Have a good one.
@@mikearchibald744 Interesting ideas.. I've heard many different Tom theories over the years, that he was Eru or Aule are two of them but neither fit very well.. if he Was Aule then Goldberry would be Yavanna which doesn't tie in with her being River daughter. Eru is illogical as there is no indication that he ever came to Arda and if he did he would certainly be more powerful than Sauron and able to vanquish him. The idea of time you suggested is a new one to me and I do like it... Tom is Timeless. He is unaging and appears the passing years have no effect on him as they do the Elves who weary of the world after millenia. Tom is certainly older than all the Elves by thousands of maybe tens of thousands of years as the time line pre-elves isn't exactly clear. Tom is as vibrant and invested in things when we see him as likely he ever was, only caring about the things within his realm as he has likely been doing for thousands of years. To me the biggest clue we ever get about Tom is from himself:
"Who are you Master" he asked.
"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinted in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends. Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made the paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the kings and the graves and the Barrow-wrights. When the Elves passed westward, tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside".
The first raindrop and the first acorn imply he's been there since the beginning of time, before the Dark Lord came from outside also does as the Silmarillion states Melkor came into the world near it's beginning shortly after the Valar did. Perhaps most important is 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer.' Tom is simply Tom Bombadil or as Goldberry puts it 'he is'
Thanks for the debate - been kinda fun :D
@@markoconnor7163 Yeah, thanks, I have to reread it, I'd forgotten that whole speech you quoted, and can't take credit for the time idea, not mine. But somebody else said he actually IS the earth. Another guy mentions him only appearing when Frodo needs help, but that was likely BECAUSE frodo needs help. But those two seem closest. But as you say, maybe he's 'nothing' but what that would mean is that he's a cheap plot device to get Frodo out of a jam and for some comic relief, which is unsatisfying idea for Tolkien, maybe a shitty hollywood movie. Some guy said that this JJ Abrams guy made a point of doing that in a star wars film, I don't watch star wars but I suspect thats something that would make it suck if you are just sticking in weird shit for the sake of it being weird.
But we know there are more 'nameless things' and they say 'they are older than Sauron', and yet Sauron is a Maier, he's as old as Morgoth. So literally there is ALL kinds of shit on the planet before any of the 'holy ones' came.
Which brings us back to the music of the ainur. Notice how Tom is almost always singing. He knows the 'songs of the trees' and what songs control them. I was thinking about the whole music thing yesterday, so that would kind of make Tom the intro and the rhythm section of the world? These comments are great, I've learned more from the comments than the video:) Peace out.
Tom was the absolute master of himself. Nothing could control him. Not even The One Ring.
Being possessive over Nature... What a burden !!!!!!!! Thank you for the thought....
I've always thought Tom is the first story. That's why he's the eldest. He is based on an old doll from Tolkien's house. The old forest is a microcosm of the story to come, or where the stories came from. Taken from Tolkien's boyhood home. He sings songs because that was how epics that Tolkien studied were told, i.e. Beowulf. He grounds the story in a type of reality. A meta foil.
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one to hear it, does it make a sound?
Tolkien's answer seems to be that Tom Bombadil is there to hear it. The Genius Loci makes all things real.
Do you think Melian would have been affected by the ring?
So was Tom Bombadil basically a similar being to Gandalf?
I've always been bothered by the phrase "and her heart was beating" when Tom describes meeting Goldberry.
What did the expect?
Bardic-speak for "she had that fire down below" ?
I always thought of goldberry the river daughter as something akin to the lady of the lake from the arthurian tales.
Good video, I think Tom is a good character. Tolkien very much understood you don’t need to explain everything (which is sadly lacking these days). My best guess is he is Tolkien in the book, and introduced himself as a way to provide Pacing. The fellowship of the Ring is to me a master class of pacing. Periods of clam followed by intense Peril. Honestly, it’s probably one of the reasons why i don’t rate the movies as highly as others.
Tom Bombadil is who and what Tolkien told us he is --- no more and no less.
If that is not satisfying, I suggest using a time machine so you can go back and grill Professor T about the matter.
Wasn't he also a doll of his children? That he weaved into early stories he used to tell them? Then he put him in the Hobbit and the LotR?
Tom Bombadil reminds me a bit of the character Kruppe in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. Now I should probably add another example, but that was the only comparison I could think of. Might be worth checking out. (I also wonder how much the author Steven Erikson was conscious of it, since I would judge him to be somewhat condescending of Tolkien. There are those. But I would be a little surprised if he never thought of the comparison at all.)
The Most important point is Nature (TOM) isn't ruled by the ring or power or those metal minded folk.....
Tom's pure joy in life and Nature is not a possessive thing, it is a celebration of nature, its gifts, its beauty and its joy.....
Tom is Nature itself and saw the first life being born....
Tom is essential to grasping what is good in Tolkien philosophy....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom Bombadil is a taskmaster for Frodo and is there to both teach and test the courage of Frodo in order to prepare him for what he will encounter when he meets the dark riders.
Tom Bombadil is Eru Iluvatar. Eru Himself participated in the Ainulindale -- the Ainur being a choir to back up His song of creation. And how does Tom communicate? His every line of dialogue is in a sing-song rhythm! He's still re-creating Creation with every moment in which He interacts with others within that created world. His name in Sindarin was "Iarwain Ben-adar" which means "Old Fatherless" . . . but how could he be 'fatherless' when the name Iluvatar means "Father of all"? Only Iluvatar can be said to have had no father -- which means that Bombadil is the very Fatherless Father-of-All.
You could say that in spite of all the sorrow and misery experienced by so many of the creatures of Middle-Earth throughout its history, Tom Bombadil is able to retain his own happy-go-lucky existence because he knows how the Song is going to end -- and he has never stopped his singing all along, where every line he says is a verse in an ongoing ballad.
Keep in mind that when the War of the Ring was over, when the Hobbits were returning to the Shire, they were accompanied by Gandalf as far as Bree, where he parted company with them . . . because he intended to visit with none other than Tom Bombadil. By this time, of course, Gandalf has 'died' and been reborn as Gandalf the White. He has gained insights that he didn't quite grasp earlier on, at the Council of Elrond -- where talk of Tom Bombadil had been had. But now, as his mission in Middle-Earth is coming to its close, it makes perfect sense that Gandalf would approach the mysterious character -- just to see whether or not his suspicions of Bombadil's true nature are spot-on. "Did I do a good job, Boss? Is there anything else you need me to do before I get on one of those boats at the Grey Havens?" Gandalf had told Frodo and the others that he intended to meet with Tom Bombadil, back in Bree, but he never tells them -- later, at the Grey Havens -- what it is that he and Tom may have talked about. Why not? Might that have been worth a mention in the Red Book?
Tom Bombadil is Eru Iluvatar. 'God' dwelling within His own created world -- if for nothing more than the sheer joy of it. Oh, and to be there at that crucial moment early on during the perilous adventure, when the four hobbits are first out of their depth, the Black Riders getting too damn close too soon. A little 'deus ex machina' done in a subtle way -- with only a bit of sing-song neighborliness being somehow able to shunt those Nazgul away from their intended prey. And the One Ring is a mere nothing to him . . .
He is the father of all rockstars
This is my theory: Tom Bombadil is a Maiar. When the Valar were creating the universe and searching for a suitable celestial object to build the home for the Children of Eru, Tom was the first to discover the right "rock" in space. He never left. He notified the Valar, they came and did their things, and Tom went on living humbly and loving the world and all that was in it.
I'm not sure about the characterization of your conclusion, but mine I think is close. Tom is The Green Man, embodied. We have a similar problem with Ents. If the Valar cannot ensoul a being, perhaps they can appeal to Eru to do so. Notably, Aule did not make a direct appeal. However Eru recognized his desire and effort - an indirect appeal - and granted it at a more appropriate time.
The orcs? I got nothing. Maybe cloning? Something like Saruman did with the Uruk-Hai in the film.