For me who lives in Germany the appearance of a nose Bus is something very unfamiliar. Almost all of the busses as well as trucks are flat noses, and as you mentioned I think it's because the vastly different road infrastructures that Europe and the US have. Narrow roads and tight turns call for high maneuverability and an excellent turning radius, which can only be achieved when the wheelbase is shortend while the space inside stays the same. We also have city busses with engines in the back standing upright, which makes maintenance much easier. The only time I've seen nose-type busses is in very small ones, that are based on designs of something like a Mercedes Sprinter, VW Crafter or similar.
I can't see many technical issues with using nose busses in Europe (unlike trucks, where you want to maximize cargo space within the legal length). I assume that the demand is different though. The US seems to commonly place responsibility for school transport on each school, which will then need a fleet of low cost busses for those few daily trips. School transport in Europe is commonly organized by local authorities, which will utilize busses from their existing public transit fleet.
Most motor coaches and city buses are rear-engined in the US--I think the ubiquity of front-engined school buses is more a matter of cost than anything else; school districts are nearly always short on cash. Conventional front-engined designs are also common for livery service vehicles like airport shuttle vans which are shorter and lower-capacity.
Flat nosed or what’s known as cab overs are actually the norm here with mass transit and interstate bus travel. There’s also quite a lot of cab over use with small delivery box trucks. However large trucks and heavy duty construction tend not to use cab overs.
Unless I missed it one advantage to having the engine in the rear is traction. Having that extra weight over the drive wheels is a big advantage in colder climates like in Canada where I drive in the snow quite often.
It also helps with interior sapce and ease of access. For city buses, this means you can have a fully flat, low to the ground floor as you don't have to worry about all the driveline components getting in the way.
We get 5cm/2" of snow and the school buses get cancelled. Even when the road is just wet I see the school bus spinning it's tires when it picks up/drops off the kids. It's not only the front engine design, but the fact that the bus has a ton of low end torque. Couple that with rear wheel drive and you have zero traction unless you're in Arizona in June.
The catapult effect was the best part of sitting in the back of the bus when I was a kid! I loved getting launched into the air anytime the bus hit a reasonable bump.
Yesss OMGAHHH that was the best!! I've seen kids get fucked up getting launched in the air! We used to do something where a few time it just perfect and give yourself like just a little bit of lift with your feet You really get launched But the problem was you don't always come back down directly into your seat
This was my exact thought - why transit and motorcoaches always have rear engines while some school buses have front engines. For motorcoaches the "catapult effect" is a con, while for school buses - in the minds of kids - it is a pro. One of several reasons the cool kids (not me) always rode in the back.
we had a ump like that most of the time our Driver, who was a super cool guy btw, gave us a good launch, but once in a while, he would see us getting ready and move over to miss it, just to hear the last 5 kids on the but all whine =) ahhhh good times
As a tractor trailer truck driver, we call the dog nose trucks “Conventional”, and the flat/snub nose trucks are referred to as COE (Cab Over Engine), or simply “Cab-Over”, because the cab sits over the engine.
@@I_am_Allan You swivvel the cab out of the way, tilting it to the front. PS: We call the dognose type "back steering" and the flatnose type "front steering" (short for "back of the engine" and "in front of the engine").
When I clicked this video, I didn't read the title properly. I thought it was about trucks. When I realized it was about buses I kept watching, because I'm convinced there isn't a cubic centimeter of the universe that isn't mindblowingly interesting. As expected, this video was mindblowingly interesting. I just now realized that I'll watch a lot of your videos, and therefore I'll have to learn a lot about motorcoaches. For starters, I'll have to learn what "motorcoach" means. I'm happy with this. As I've said many times, "we learn while we live" is false. "We live while we learn" is true.
I've always called them conventionals (or more specifically conventional yellow dog's for school buses) and it's really a term left over from the trucking industry (conventional tractor versus cab-over tractor). What it typically boils down to, rural school districts tend to go with conventional designs where urban districts tend to choose motorcoach based designs (rear engine, flat front) to better facilitate maneuverability as there is less swing and the driver has a better view of the front which is handy when maneuvering in and out of traffic.
Yep, the conventional engines are also a bit easier to service as other designs may require lifting the cab or otherwise getting the rest of the vehicle out of the way rather than being able to skip right to lifting the engine out of the bay for work further inside the engine.
I remember when I rode a school bus with a flat front end, but the engine compartment was also an "island" between the door and the driver's seat, which meant that you had to enter the cab of the bus in order to get to the engine.
My dad had a conversion van like that when I was a kid that he bought new, late 80's Dodge Ram, had to access the engine through the "dog house" inside of the van.
Is it similar to the old London's Double Decker buses? Since those buses technically is kind of a hybrid being a flat nose while having the engine on the front.
Rode a bus like this in middle school (late 80s). Stub nose front engine. The district has two busses of this type at the time. Now all are dog nose. District my son goes to has at least two stub noses.
A diesel pusher, or rear engine (flat nose) bus, is a purpose built bus where the body is the frame. I maximizes all the space available within the legal length of the vehicle. A cab and chassis, or conventional (dog nose) is just a truck pretending to be a bus. The passenger body sits on top of the frame like an accessory. This means no pass through storage underneath. A higher center of gravity and less usable space and a much rougher ride. Wheel base is also limited mostly because the engine transmission are up front which means a really long driveshaft with multiple carrier bearings is needed to couple to the axle. This also results in quite a bit of torque loss. The only benefit they really have is cost. Just my two cents.Good vid, thanks James.
@@abc123456efg A diesel pusher is a term used mostly in the RV community to denote the location of the engine. Simply put a Diesel engine that pushes from the rear. Most diesel pusher rv’s and built in the same manner as a motor coach using unibody construction
The conventional design is better able to navigate gravel and dirt roads, which is why a lot of rural school districts prefer that design. When I was in high school, the bus route went down plenty of gravel roads.
easier to repair is what i like. if something goes wrong i'd rather be able to pop the hood sand have everything in the open than find which panel he problem will be behind and have to do close quarters gymnastics.
Bonjour, James ! I'm François, from Toulouse, France, happy driver of a Setra S419 GT-HD coach : 3 axles, 15 meters (49+ feet), 69 seats (+ mine), 480 bhp 16 liters V8 engine by Mercedes-Benz. As you probably know, most « flat-nose rear-end motors » coaches on the market don't really have a chassis with a box on top, but a self-supporting body (hence the name Setra, abbreviation of the german word « selbsttragend », invented ca. 1950 by Karl Kässbohrer) or « auto-porteur » in french. This explains every pros you mentioned about them, such as comfort, less noise, better balance, stronger traction,... I love your videos !! Keep sharing the good stuff and take care !
Thanks Francois. Yes I actually did a video that explains all of that. It was the video about the history of Van Hool. ruclips.net/video/zsQdR12J9zc/видео.html Check it out if you want! I appreciate your kind words! Thanks for the comment!
You are correct about the old VW buses. I drove my '68 bus for years, and I became very comfortable sitting on top of the front axle, with my feet swinging around ahead of the tires. It takes time to get used to it, but it's a very comfortable, upright position that is great for long distances. Plus you have precise control in tight spaces.
I spent a few years driving a school bus for a school district in upstate South Carolina. I drove both traditional and flat-nosed transit styles. I have a strong preference for the transit style! Once I got the feel for maneuvering the beast, it was so much easier to drive. I enjoyed this video. Thanks for sharing.
I once drove a dog nose school bus when I was a kid. It was a 1979 International Harvester S1853 Schoolmaster school bus that was rotting away (along with a bunch of other vehicles) on my great-grandparents' farm in a small rural town in Northern Michigan. I don't remember which diesel engine it had, but I don't remember hearing a turbo whistle so it was probably NA. It also had a 5-speed manual transmission, and the clutch was so heavy that my seven-year-old self had to stand on the clutch pedal in order to get the pedal to the floor. The shift pattern was different than any others I've seen. Most 5 speed shift patterns are 1 2 3 4 5 R, but the shift pattern on the bus was 1 R 2 3 4 5.
In Europe, we have all flat front coaches and the majority of them rear engined as we like to say. But not too long ago Volvo offered a chassis called the B12m/B10m and the B8r / B9r / B11r / B12r and B13r (B standing for the chassis model, 12/10 meaning the litres, and the M / Rmeaning where it was situated) B12m chassis' had their engine and running gear in the middle of the bus (between the wheelbase) And the B11r chassis had their engines mounted at the rear. Many people (myself included) would argue this is the perfect place to mount the running gear because it has a much better center of gravity. Especially on bumpy roads this is ideal compared to rear engined coaches where all of the weight is in the back, leaving it as we say, very jumpy. The B12m succeeded the B10m in the early 2000's due to emissions, and the B12m was unfortunately discontinued in 2010 again due to emissions, which was then succeeded by the B11r chassis we have today. Volvo Coaches are typically bodied on the B9r, B11r and the B13r, which the B8r and occasionally B9r are used for citybus and intercity coach bodies. We had a number of B10m / B12m's on the Plaxton Paragon and the Jonckheere body. We operate Vanhool's today because they are the only rear engined coach we find that handle like a middle engined coach due to their weight. Leaving them a lot better on bumpy roads.
One more comparison is how each type handles in the snow. When trying to stop a conventional coach will want to slide the rear end more, and a transit or flat nosed will have the steering axle go out from under you faster. I drove both types, started out in a conventional old late 70's International. Then after a few months was thrown into the drivers seat of a transit. OMG I was scared to death for a while until I got used to it. I was 19 at the time way back in the late 80's. Ended up with 10 years on the road for school, OTR coach then the RTA before giving it up and getting into what I do now here in North East Ohio. I had a Chauffeurs license then and had to convert to a CDL later. I keep my CDL up just in case but retirement is 7 years off now, so not looking likely I will be behind the wheel again.
You would hate to see what some of the public-school systems used back in the day, some had busses that ran on gas and the fuel tank was near the door and one accident in 1988 (former school bus later became a church bus) changed everything about bus safety
Bus drivers are incredible. As a 1972 high school student I was on music tour with an all-county band in Germany, France, and Belgium and there was one instance where our bus driver maneuvered a particularly narrow and winding street with the buildings practically up to the edge of the road. I was amazed. He drove very, very slowly to be sure where his vehicle was at all times.
The cab over design or flat nosed if you prefer was originally designed for use in cities were turning radius is reduced. It also improves visibility when the vehicle turning
When I transitioned from a jet with the nose wheel out front to one with the nose wheel behind the cockpit, it wasn't much of a learning curve. You do have to keep it in mind when making tight turns, especially on narrow taxiways, however. Great vid, James!
Good video James always look forward to Wednesday or Thursday to see if there is a new video posted. I was a bus driver from 1970 to1990 when my company closed the garage doors permanently. So, I put my college degree to work and took a job as a High School History teacher. Two weeks later I was a substitute school bus driver. Two years later I was Director of Transportation for a small town rural school district. We had 11 routes and a fleet of 7 Bluebird All American FEs and 7 Bluebirds on Ford chassis and an old worn out PD 4107 activities bus for a fleet of 15. There are 4 types of school busses with the most common being Types A, C, and D. What separates the four types weight, passenger size and were the front door is located. Types A, B and C the front door is located behind the front wheels and Type D has the front door located in front of the front wheels a coach. In my world of school busses Type A was called a Mini bus and it was a cut away it had an independent driver's door on a van chasing. Types B and C were called commercial chassis and Type D was called a coach or transit style or a nickname was CRACKER BOXES. In my opinion you were trying to compare flat front MCI J4500 to pictures of very old 2000 commercial chassis school busses, no comparison. The comparison should have been the J4500 to the black Executive Cut A Way, dog nose, independent driver door coach or the black party bus and school busses should have been left out. There are three school bus manufacturers that I am familiar with Bluebird, Thomas which is owned by Dalmer/Frieghtliner, and IC owned by International Corporation. School busses are built like tanks, builders are continually trying to improve on driver visibility, that's why you have funny looking dog nose commercial chassis school busses, Passenger safety and economy. School busses are built to haul students to and from school in under one hour not over the road for four. I can go on about school busses but I will stop. One question to the CROWN geeks who might read my post why did CROWN put ten speeds in there school busses?
If someone said "hey you should watch a RUclips video about different kinds of busses" I would've ignored them, but I'm honestly fascinated now. I thought a lot about this in grade school and I literally haven't thought about it since, but this is a super interesting topic and you did a great job explaining it.
The Flat Nose or CabOver design help give a better/tighter turning radius. That's why European tractor trails are mostly Cab Over, because of the old narrow european roads.
I expected to get bored a few minutes in, but instead I got completely sucked in and was surprised the video was ending! Thank you for accepting me into the motorcoach world.
I'm a "safety manager" in a national firm that contracts the operation of various types of bus services. My location has 40+ "dog nose" type buses and they are legally referred to as "cutaway style buses" or "CSB"s in all our documents. Really enjoy your video BTW.
Here in Australia, we use transit and coach bus for schools and trips. I haven't seen front engine bus. Australian use flat front end busses, there's a time lag whenever you turn, we called it over hang. When leaving parking, try to leave a gap infront and park your tail at slight angle away from the kerb. Thus will ensure you won't have deadly tail swing.
I'm retired now and in the last seven years of my working life I drove buses just north of Brisbane, Australia. All the buses had rear monted engines with the driver sitting about a metre in front of the front axle. It was certainly important to be aware of the location of those rear wheels as you were going around tight corners. They were also very good at getting remarkably close to another bus at a terminal and being able to still pull out from behind.
@@ItsDaJax That's one of the reasons for it in the city. That space may or may not be the difference between fitting past the light or being stuck blocking part of the cross street. It also makes a huge difference in terms of the space needed for bus stops on streets where the buses pull off to the side rather than just stopping in traffic.
@@Parawingdelta2 The steering radius of a coach is far better than that of a truck. Like you mentioned, almost able to go sideways, like the nose wheel on an airplane.
The International bus at the beginning with the weird nose is called a "Vista" Bus. From what I know they were only available with bodies produced by Thomas, and were usually sold with an International chassis during the 1990's, although some Chevrolet buses from the 80's also had these bodies available. They sold pretty well in the Southeast of the U.S. from what I know and were available in different body styles and lengths. The design was ivented to have better visibility than a dognose bus without be as "unsafe" as a flat front bus.
Thomas have been putting their bodies on a lot of different chassis. They have used International 3800s as a normal chassis, I’d assume it was just to switch things up a bit to wrap the body around the engine as well.
I drove one of those Vista's for a few days years ago. Comparison one what they felt like was a Step Van which would be similar to a UPS or FedEx delivery truck. They really were not that bad of a bus. I think the one I drove had a T444E in it.
@@pugmalley And the Vistas were a cross between a a standard conventional and a COE. (Thomas has built both conventional AND COE designs since 197x; the Vista design lasted only two years.) The Vista was a *transitional* design until Freightliner and MBNA (Mercedes Benz North America) had their own conventional design that replaced the FS-65 - which had many different front ends (International, Ford, Dodge, Chevy, GMC, etc.). The conventional design from MBNA today is the same conventional design that replaced Vista.
@@PGHammer21A You're close. The Vista does date back to the late 80's with the Chevy chasis. The Vista was not a cross between the Type C and the Type D (the flat-nose, transit, motorcoach style buses) per sa, but maybe more closely related to the Type B (traditional bus body on a step van chasis, which at the time, both GM and International produced). The Vista was just not a good bus; terrible to drive, and a real pain to maintain. At the school system I worked for, we were glad to see them go. The Vista was definitely a designed that Thomas was toying with mainly for International. At the time, International Navistar (or whomever), were in talks over purchasing Thomas Built, which is why you only saw the Vista as a International, and not a Ford during 90's. By then, GM only provided chasis for the Type A. When the company was bought by Freightliner, the Vista was shelved, if not before then. Fast forward to the mid 2000, Thomas and Freightliner come up with the new C-2 to fit on the new business class chasis (I think that's what they call it). While I don't know if the C-2 and the Vista are related, but the styling cues are definitely there.
As a kid in elementary school, I took a school bus to school and back each day. The driver, H., had to deal with screaming kids and all the usual. My buddies and I would sit in the far back, but H. would let a kid sit on the engine cover in the snub-nosed bus he drove, as a reward for behaving or simply being nice. There were no safety devices in the buses then, and I now realize that in a fast stop or crash, any kid on the engine cover would have sailed through the flat plate-glass windshield in front, coming out likely resembling cole slaw. I've often wondered how Harold did, but I'm sure he's gone now as this was over 50 years ago! By the way, not all flat-nosed buses were rear engine.
Sitting in front of the front axle was never a problem for me: i just keep track of where my rear axle and rear overhang are going when turning. Having driven a mid-engined MB200 and my rear-engined T812, i definitely prefer the rear-engined T812 because it is way more silent. But the semi-automatic gearbox of the MB200 is a real treat. Both are what you call "flat nose".
I’ve only driven a cabover bus once, a 90’s Blue Bird, for training. The company for which I drove had Blue Bird All American T3’s with the ISL in the back. Beautiful buses. Then moved to motorcoaches with the ISX or Detroit 60 in the back. Only other thing I’d driven are conventional trucks, which, for obvious reasons cannot be rear engined. I cannot imagine why, given the choice, companies, and RV owners, get front engined buses.
Dodge made their compact pickup truck like that in the 60s (Remember the A-100) that the steering wheels were directly below the driver and the engine was under an island inside the cab between the two bucket seats.
@@glennso47 Detroit was "pressured" to downsize and reduce weight. The appearance of the Volkswagon busses and interesting 2 seat flatbed pickups resulted in the "Big Three" and Jeep producing flat front cab over / control forward utility vehicles.
Conventional = Engine at the front of the bus covered by a cowl. Transit = Any bus without a front cowl. If the engine is in the front, it is under the driver and covered by a "dog house." Glad I found your channel. I have worked for my local school district as well as two charter companies. I definitely prefer transit buses, and I would like to share some of my most and least favorite features of the buses I have driven. MCI J4500: Pro: The curved stairs and the ramp that leads into the passenger compartment. Con: Steering tag axle instead of lifting axle Van Hool / Temsa: Pro: The service door which opens parallel to the bus instead of extending out like a sedan door. Con: Both made overseas and can be difficult to get parts. Prevost H3-45: Pro: Tall luggage bays. Most luggage can be loaded vertically on their wheels making loading and unloading much easier. Plus, extra storage bay in stairwell under first passenger seat. Con: Restroom door often slides open when making turns. Prevost X3-45: Pro: Panels over the rear wheels can be opened making it easier to install chains in the winter. Con: Fewer compartments for driver's convenience.
Here in Brazil we have a majority of flat nose buses, as far as I know, every single bus that is still in production here is a flat nose model, in the state where I live (Pernambuco), they mainly have frontal engines, with the exception of articulated buses and most motorcoaches, they're normally built in truck chassis that are modified by the manufacturer to recieve a bus structure on top. The top part of the bus is normally manufactured separated from the chassis. The most common chassis manufacturers here nowdays are Mercedes, Volkswagen, Volvo, Scania and Iveco, as for the top portion, we call those manufacturers "encarroçadoras" ("Wagon makers" if translated literally), there are Caio Induscar, Marcopolo, Neobus, Mascarello and Agrale as more common active ones, there is the Busscar, which closed in a decade or so, and some old ones that are out of market for decades (Also worth mentioning that we had/have some foreing produced bus, like old Marmon-Herrington trolleybuses, some Irizar buses that were produced under license and so one). The "dog nose" ones are normally old buses, they were called as "Jardineiras" (Meaning "Planter/Gardener/Overalls"), some with Ford or Chevrolet chassis, adapted from truck chassis, with a single door near the front axel, one model to search for, as it was the most common, is the "Caio Jardineira", that is a term for a major section of models produced by Caio with this design, also the "Caio Gabriela Andino" ("Andino" means "The one from Andean Mountains", "Gabriela" is a common female name), the last one being mainly used outside of Brazil in other South American countries (Hence the name refering to a mountain chain outside of Brazil). These models were normally used on rural areas, where you woun't find paved roads, nowdays they're normally 4x4 versions of flat nose buses. Worth mentioning that here in Brazil there isn't a standard rule for urban mass transit buses regarding door numbers and so, there is the "PADRON" study that came to a conclusion to a bus with large enough windows, large enough doors and 2 of them, one for entering (Normally foward of the front axel), the other one for exiting (behind the rear axel in most states, but in Rio de Janeiro you can find them between the front and rear axels). The state where I live has an extra middle door for handicap embarking and disembarking (In other states, they would normally use the rear door) in the majority of buses (The ones who don't have them are normally not adapted for handicap transport, as they don't have a wheelchair elevator, yes, this was a reality up until the 2010s, and some buses from that era were still in operation up until 2020, this in the metropolitan region, as rural places still operate old buses with this configuration). Articulated buses have often 3 doors, we're still talking about right side doors, but the amount tends to mirror to the left side if the bus uses that too in stops (On the BRT systems, for example, as they bypass the ticket gate, so you pay the ticket to board the station instead of paying it inside of the bus... Aaaaand some people find their way to bypass both and ride for free... Brazil is for professionals), but here where I live, as well as in some other states, you might see articulated BRT buses with 4 doors on the left side (Search for "Mobi-pe Caio Millennium BRT" or "CoNorte Neobus Mega BRT/Marcopolo Viale BRT" if you wanna see photos of those), and 3 on the right side, yup, it's a mess. As far as trucks go, currently we only produce flat nosed trucks, you can find some "dog nose" ones, but they're not in production anymore, some more recent, some older, like the Scania 111S (Nicknamed "Jacaré", means "alligator"), Scania 113H and Mercedes Atron (This one ceased production about 2 years ago, being the last produced semi-truck "bicudo", as we call here, it means "The one with a big beek/nose"). The reason why we don't have them here anymore is due to regulations, as here the maximum lenght of a truck and semi-truck also counts it's cabin and nose, so a flat nose gives you more space for cargo, but in the case of rocks, sand and other dense grains and materials transportation, those "dog nose" trucks and semi-trucks were still used, due to the weight of the cargo exceeding the maximun allowed by law before the lenght and height would ever do, and as they were cheaper to maintain and looked prettier in the eyes of some truckers.
I always refer to the "flat nose " tractors as "cab-overs". Cab-overs became popular back when the length of the overall length was more restricted for tractor-trailers on interstate highways. Cab-overs had more internal engine noise and rougher ride comfort for the driver.
I am licenced to operate a 53 passenger bus in Japan. Flat nose rear engine. Its also a 5 speed manual. (Electronic stick and a traditional clutch) its a mitsubishi fuso. Its fun to drive
When I lived in NYC, my routines had me frequently in neighborhoods around the bus depots. Whether it was new drivers or old drivers on radically new equipment (like the transition from high to low floor buses, or from repurposed local buses to commuter grade express buses), it was always amusing to watch the drivers learning to corner the buses. Especially if you caught the show by a stop that had a supervisor or two. Later in life, when I finally got my license, the lessons learned of always knowing where your wheels are and the center of your turning radius, helped a great deal. If only they'd had some advice for parallel parking (besides DON'T).LOL!
When I was working for a moving company, they wanted us to start parking along the spaces, and not in them. Had to parallel park one of the straight trucks a few times, have done it on the street, backed down a whole apartment complex road once. Doing a bus... whew. Have done it once, since the school board requires you to be able to back them up in a space, with about three feet of clearance between you and the other two busses.
I have driven buses, trucks (semi and box trucks), motor homes and now a school bus since 1974. I have always heard the different style buses called, "conventional" and "flat nose". Your video pretty much covers the reasons for the two styles and their uses. Good video.
Having driven both types of school buses, I greatly prefer the rear engine type. It has greater visibility and just drives better in my opinion. Love your channel!
I drive a 2019 Irizar i6s on a 3-axled, rear engine chassis from Scania. Yes, we're in Europe. The coach has a front door and a door between the axles. This door is called a middle door. To the right of it sits an under floor restroom/toilet, to the left is the access to the driver's bunk and on top a pantry with two 40 cups coffee-maker and a water boiler. 54 reclining seats with USB outlet for each passenger and a 230 v power socket for each double seat. 14.07 x 2.55 x 3.93 m = 46 ft 2" x 8 ft 4" x 12 ft 10". Luggage space 38 ft3. 450 HP and a 12-speed-semiautomatic gearbox, Opticruise. Only mini and a few medium-sized buses have dog noses in Europe. Some buses and coaches are build on chassis with underfloor engines, but the majority are rear engined. The popular brands are Scania, Volvo, Iveco, Mercedes, DAF/Paccar and MAN. An Irizar has great access to all components, and the mechanics can almost stand or sit in the engine compartment. Greetings to all of you from Denmark!
At my small bus company, I have an intentionally mixed fleet of Thomas rear engine transits, one front engine transit, and a mix of conventionals, including a Lion (diesel) which is the only school bus for sale in the US with a 102” width. My entire reason for the mixed fleet is “driver preference”. In order to attract the best drivers around, I strive to make sure we have a bus for every driver.
That’s fantastic! As a driver, my main gripe with companies is equipment. There are some rear engine coaches I like, the Blue Bird T3 with the ISL was really nice, but an International with the albeit oppressively loud MaxxForce was a beast. Much more power than the ISB. I have driven a cabover once, and will never understand why people order them. Hot, loud, and in the way.
@@jaysmith1408 The B Series is really meant for smaller buses and trucks (6.7 L engines are great for midibuses like the Alexander Dennis Enviro200, while 4.5 L engines are better suited for pickup trucks). You could get away with using the 6.7 in 40' hybrid buses, but that's about it. Those buses with 4.5 engines wind up being ridiculously anemic, especially if they're hybrids forced into diesel mode like those Borismasters can be if the batteries fail.
Oh man, as a car enthusiast since birth, I was so stoked in elementary school to see my school bus one day pull up as one of those weird long/flat nose hybrid International buses. I always sat at the front of the bus, not because I was a good kid (which I was) but because I always wanted to see what was going on in the drivers area of the bus. Riding a regular long-nose bus normally to school, it was interesting to see this weird thing pull up to pick me up. As an adult, having not seen one in a long time, I too am fascinatingly curious as to why that bus came to be... it is very strange in hind-sight.
Hell yeah brother. When I was 9 years old I asked my parents for a school bus toy . I was fascinated with the roar of the engine, the air brake. My district had a mixture of both dog-nosed and snub nose buses. I always thought that the snub nose busses were more comfortable. Now I know why. It was the noise difference. Neat video . You're making buses seem so enticing 😬. I was always amazed by the power they had.
Living in the frozen north and having the chance to drive both types of busses in the past, there is one note you missed. The flat nose bus preforms better in inclement weather, IE doesn't get stuck in the snow as easily. This is due to the reason you mentioned, weight over the drive wheels. However, this also means you have to be gentle with the steering as it is slightly easier to lose traction on steer wheels without the added weight up there. Whereas the dog nose tends to offer the ability to power slide a bus full of people without loss of steering. A few passengers find that fun, mostly kids. Up here this is how a majority of tow calls start. Of course, like anything, all of this can be mitigated with proper rubber/studs on those "boxes".
Here in mn the MTC uses many “ articulated “ busses which have their engines in the rear. However those articulated busses got stuck very easily when pulling away from a bus stop. I rode busses for years and hated it when I would get one when it snowed . Just my opinion based on my experiences of course
@@arthurbrumagem3844It seems you are describing a pusher type. There are tractor types; mid-engined and middle-wheel drive. Better articulation stability.
I remember well the catapult effect of the long rear overhang on dog-nosed school buses. When I was in grade school my friends and I always sat in the very back seat. The bus route crossed a bridge over a small creek and there was a big bump up onto the bridge deck which the bus drive never slowed down for. We would get launched fully off the seat into the air. We figured out that the effect could be amplified by jumping up off the seat a little before the rear bus tires hit the bump. If you timed it right, you would be coming back down just as the seat started coming up. You would hit the seat thereby compressing the seat cushion and get an extra upward boost. Done just right, you could touch the ceiling of the bus. Great way to start the day each morning.
As a US school bus mechanic. I do like the “conventional” as we call them or type C bus because of the reasons you stated. The worst is the front engine flat nose. Very noisy and unless you are working on the valve cover, it sucks. Rear engine aren’t much better, school buses typically don’t have side access doors like coaches. Great video!
Recognizing lots of shots around Springfield Illinois! Great summation of the differences. A lot of folks call the rear-engine design a "pusher", which is funny because the engine location has nothing to do with the location of the drive wheels! 😅
I remember being a bus enthusiast in high school. I remember buses also being classified as 4 classes: Type A- Type D. Type A's are the (usually) smaller dog-nose buses attached to smaller van/truck chasses ex: Collins Bantam bus model. Type B was also a dog-nose, with a smaller chassis (often slightly larger than Class A: and passenger capacity ex: Blue Bird Mini-Bird. Class C would be the dog-nose conventionals, with larger carrying capacities, usually mid-larger buses (48-60 pax) like Blue Bird Conventional, and Class D's were the Transit-Style (flat-nose) styles, both front and rear engines, with medium to very large pax capacities (up to 90 pax), examples being the old Crown Coach, Blue Bird TC-2000 (FE/RE), Thomas Saf-T-Liners, etc. As a kid, I used to call Crown Coaches "Roundbacks" and the other transit-style buses "flat-nosed rectangle buses"! Very informative and interesting video bringing back fun memories of my high school years, where I took the school bus to and from school!
Thanks for the video! I have a Toyota Hiace Grand Cabin and I love how clean it looks with the flat nose. To be honest that's the main reason why I wanted one.
Hi James, I have a video idea for you. Have you ever noticed how school buses that have wheel chair lifts have smaller tires? Even your typical 40 ft school bus will have smaller tires if it is equipped with a wheel chair lift. I've noticed that not many people know why that is and I thought it would be a great idea for a video. Keep up the good work my friend. 👍
@@linuxninja I am a school bus driver myself but I am not talking about the length of the bus. I am literally talking about the size of the tires on the bus. Have you ever noticed how any school bus with a wheelchair lift will have smaller tires than the regular buses, while the frame stays the same. My theory is that they are that way so there won't be a hump at the rear inside the bus, thus making the movement of wheelchairs inside the bus easier.
@@ariceagaandros Could they be running a smaller tire to allow extra space for kneeling to make a flatter surface for wheelchair users to enter through?
What I've found interesting as far as wheelchair lift equipped buses go is the way the buses at Disney World in Florida have a rear door that can convert from normal stairs to a wheelchair lift. I find this to be a pretty neat feature, and I haven't seen it on any other buses I've ridden on.
Manufacturers do this to allow for a completely flat floor inside & to get the floor level closer to ground level so the wheel chair lift won't have to work over a much greater distance. A standard 22.5 tire would require a floor 4 feet from ground level to accommodate the tire circumference while keeping a flat interior floor (just like a typical Ryder truck) & allowing for normal suspension movement. Instead, they use the low-profile 19.5s & that enables them to build the floor over a foot closer to the ground & still maintain the flat interior floor while still providing complete suspension movement. You can always tell they're stretching the envelope slightly because all of the special needs buses have a bit of a rake to them.
Even as a very young child, I was always fascinated by buses, and always wanted to become a professional motor coach operator. Many years later, after spending much of my career in public service, I by chance opportunity got to attend a open house recruitment for bus driving jobs in an east coast state. After being hired, obtaining my CDL, and being trained on school buses, I was assigned to the company's transit and motor coach division, where I operated every type of equipment that they owned. My favorite were the motor coaches, which I drove all over the east coast and into Ohio and Canada. I probably would still be working there except that I relocated to another state where I took another executive assignment in my former career field. When I tell people of my time as a professional bus driver, they seem confused knowing of my past. But, honestly, it was a dream that had long been deferred. And, I would quickly do it again. By the way, I was only one of two drivers at the company who could operate he self-shifting MCL motor coaches that the company owned at the time.
I drive a rear engine Blue Bird school bus. I definitely prefer driving it over a front engine bus. Much less noise and more comfortable. They are also more fun to drive in my opinion. Great video!
I still remember riding home 10 miles on a Gillig 108 passenger school bus with tire chains in the 1970's during a freak snow storm. I thought my teeth were going to fall out. I also thought these were mid engine but I don't have any knowledge about if there ever were any mid engine school busses.
As driver with experience across school, transit and motor coach I tend to like the flat front of transit and coach. I notice in the US a lot of urban school bus routes are flat-front "type D" transit style (as apposed to "C type" Conventional school bus). I surmise this is for the same reason transit buses are as it minimizes the tail swing and one can maneuver the door into curb-side better with out hitting or riding the curbs. In transit we could slightly overhang the curbs when pulling in eliminating the gap that passengers had to cross especially in some common designs of terminals and bus loops. Also I like the quieter ride on the longer transit shift or coach run to another place far away. However, my students love the catapult zone on the speed humps.
Just an anecdote on the Toyota Previa (that flat nosed minivan Toyota made). I don't know if it improved over the years, but my parents got the 2-wheel drive version of it when I was in college. It was so poorly balanced with the engine sitting in the middle of the car (to check the oil, you had to lift up the middle row passenger seat) that we would literally slide on surfaces that we had no business sliding on at sub 10-mph (dry leaves on a slight incline, damp asphalt). My dad didn't initially believe the rest of us, thinking we didn't know how to drive properly, and then he couldn't get up our driveway in the rain one day and it was traded in the next day for the 4-wheel drive version. These were probably the 1989 or so version of the car. Admittedly, the 4-wheel drive version worked far better and they kept it for a number of years.
Conventionals are also usually less wide, and don’t have a huge amount of room in the inside, this is coming from someone that has a school that used to have almost a full fleet of bluebird All Americans and TC2000’s, we now only have Bluebird T3FE’s and a ton of visions. My grandma has driven both school buses and coaches for 30+ years, of course she’s retired now but one of her first coaches was a Bluebird LTC-40, and I know another one that she drove was a Thomas EF commercial W/C bus.
The catapult effect was the best part of our school day. My neighborhood layed out in a way that about 6 of us were the last ones on the bus. The main road of the hood had a sink spot that created a double dip. We had convinced the driver to just motor on thru it while we all got into the back 2-3 seats. It used to toss us into different seats, bounce us off the roof. It eas a grad time. There was also the next road over that were nicknamed "THE SEVEN HILLS". When we got older the 3rd hill in was great for getting cars airborne, but in the school bus they felt like a rollercoaster.
Good to see you James. Belated happy New Year. I drove them all. I still prefer a rear engine coach. A guy I worked for used to have Crystal 38 passenger buses.. I drove them in and around the Wash DC area and I didn't like the steering and they were noisy and didn't have air rid. A+ for the topic. The flat nose trucks you referred to are know as Cab Overs. The semi trucks with a front engine are called conventionals. Stay safe up there.
The term you're looking for is called "Cutaway" for the truck based buses. I avoid them like the plaque, and I think they're significantly much more difficult to drive than a normal bus.
I’m always amazed at how ugly North American buses and coaches look compared to what we have here in Scotland. The company I work for have Neoplan Tourliner’s and VDL Futura’s for tour and private hire. We primarily see 50 foot Plaxton Elite’s for intercity services although we are now seeing more and more Panoramas. Most places use ADL Enviro singe and deckers for local bus routes although a lot of operators also run the smaller Optare Solo’s on tight routes. I’ve really been enjoy your content, it’s interesting to see the similarities and differences on many aspects of the job, keep them coming 👍
The ‘ugly school buses’ is an icon to America, literally show anyone in the world a picture of a yellow school bus and everyone knows it’s an American school bus, same for the iconic NYC yellow Victoria cabs. Wish I could say the same about Scotland
I rode the bus when Gilligs and Crowns were still making buses, manual transmissions were just as common as automatics and before that crossing arm safety device existed. All the bus drivers on my route over the years strongly preferred the transit style, rear/mid engine buses because 1) Visibility up front because this gave them the confidence they could track and account for all the kids crossing in front of the bus from the driveway onto the bus. 2) They claimed they were quieter. 3) They loved the maneuverability and would proudly drop the fact that they would win the bus roadeos (if they did win and they mostly the Crown drivers). I love the look of the transit style school buses.
Gillig is still in the bus building business, one of the largest transit bus builders in the US. Built in Hayward, California down the road from Tesla in Fremont.
I drive a special needs school bus, flat nose, front engine, short bus. I drove a 2007 Thomas truck/bus for my first 5 years. I hated that thing. The truck chassis shook that bus apart, me included. I recently upgraded to a 2016 Bluebird. What a difference! It has a coach chassis and drives like a dream compared to the Thomas. I much prefer the flat nose for the visibility, especially where children are involved.
I love driving a Nova Bus! We have them here at Disney World. The Articulated Nova (60’) is wayyy more fun to drive, and ironically easier to drive than a regular 40’ bus. But you’re kinda right about how the drive. The 4 feet in front of the wheels is accurate, but they drive surprisingly the same as most transit buses.
If you are a Disney Castmember bus driver, thank you for everything you do. Not enough people give you guys the credit you deserve. They just like to complain if the bus is taking too long.
I’ve heard the dog nose style called a “cut-away”. In most cases this refers to the passenger body being attached to an incomplete or “cut away” chassis.
@@MotorcoachWorld cut away in school bus usage would refer to a van chassis bus and IC's AE and AC, the f550 and M2 chassis are also examples, since part of cab is removed vs conventional school buses which are built on a cowled chassis which hood, engine, steering wheel, and dashboard are included. A Thomas C2 is a cowled chassis based bus as it uses a different windshield than the related M2. My assigned bus is a C2.
I just have the nostalgia of sitting at the far back of a school bus down here in Louisiana with really bumpy roads and hitting the bumps to get that big jump effect. I remember some kid hitting the roof like an idiot with their head.
I've always just assumed a conventional bus would be easier to work on than a rear engine mount because you can get to both sides of the engine easier though visibility would be better in the latter. Then again I've also always wondered why most semis have a conventional cab as opposed to the cabover variety I saw so much as a kid back in the 70's as on those the whole cab could be cranked forward on a hinge? making the whole engine area have easier access on a COE than on a conventional. Aesthetically I think conventional busses and semis look more attractive though I do have a soft spot for the 1940's "Old Look" GM buses with their detroit diesels. :) Growing up, my folks bought a 1959 Ford "D" bus as it said on it's builder's plate. We turned it into a camper and used it for many years on trips and vacations. It was just slightly shorter than a modern school bus with I think originally a seating capacity of 66. Of course it was conventional and it had what I thought was a tiny engine for such a large vehicle, a 292 cid V-8 and I think it's top speed was 60mph....65 or 70 downhill with a good tailwind, lol.
Not necessarily. With he cab over design, the entire cab will tilt forward allowing access to the engine. As long as the engine clears the cab, there's not much difference as virtually any modern engine, whether a bus or a car is going to need to be removed for most work that needs to be done. Compared with engines from 60 years ago, the engine is likely to fill the entire engine bay of a typical vehicle. This necessitates its removal for most nontrivial work.
Wow, this is a tought topic! About the half nose, it was supposed to be the best of both worlds, as in, engine in the front, without the weird curved stairwell, with the giant dog house (the engine cover thats on the inside for those that dont know). The snub noses don't have that, and have a traditional stairwell. But, they used the space that would be empty under the dash, shoving the engine, like in a van (why vans built on truck frames, i.e. Econolines, Express, Ram, had smaller hoods). So there was no need for the full nose length. THey were thought to be better in cities. The issue I heard was that they were a pain to work on, so they stopped making them that way. I think Id condense a bus design to cost, driver maneuverability for the area where it operates, and maintenance....which I guess is the same for anything, except if you drive a Hummer H1 lol Also, I can't give you an LFS but if you want to drive my DAC, youre more than welcome. It has more front overhang than the Nova. Doing sharp turns feels more like moving sideways lol.
Very informative and interesting, thanks! My son and I were talking about school buses and wondering why some were flat and some had a nose, so we found this video. Thanks for making and explaining:)
The short nosed busses, that look like hybrids between longnose and flatnose, are also truck based, but this time based on a flatnose truck design. As the engine sits directly behind the front axle, but the passenger entrance door is behind the engine, the driver's seat is placed also behind the front axle to allow for interactions between driver and passengers e.g. to pay the fare.
I have driven one of those late 80s Toyota vans and it’s like driving a miniature bus. I’m always amazed to see the calm nature of most bus drivers, especially in tight parking spots.
OMG! So that explains why on many school buses I've taken with noses, the motor tends to be a bit louder in the front while on other public buses with flat fronts, the engine would be in the back. That must mean that school buses with flat fronts have their motors in the back. I didn't know too much about that until now, thanks for this explanation! :D
Not always, the easiest way to determine where the engine is is to see if there is a window or door out the back. if you can see out the back, the engine is front mounted.
Nice video, but the city transit style busses with the engine in the back are much easier to turn in tight places like narrow city streets and really don't take any extra time to learn how to drive.
When I was an elementary school student in the US in the early 1990s, the school system of the city I lived in had both the "nosed" and "flat-faced" kinds of school buses. At that age, I considered the nosed variety to be "normal" and the flat variety to be "ugly".
I've watched a lot of schoolie builds and I've never understood why people chose the dog nose or front engine buses. I would totally go with the rear engine. It just makes more sense for the reasons you mentioned.
It is all about maintenance. School buses have very long service lives (15-20 years minimum) and do almost exclusively stop-and-go driving, so easy access to the engine and the front suspension and brakes for maintenance and inspections is important.
@@raygrinders3918 not sure if I spelled schoolie correctly. It might be Skoolie. Where people buy a retired school bus and convert it to an RV. The engine should be in the rear for comfort.
I would choose a conventional because they look better, and eaiser to work on. I like coaches and transit buses, but school busses look best as a conventional FE. The only reason a RE would ride better is either; has air ride, or has double wishbone front suspension. The city's Gillig Lowfloors ride nice, but they seem like wallow, and bang the bumpstops on hard bumps and potholes.
You mentioned the VW and Toyota vans. I had a bunch of the mid to late 60s Chevy vans back in the 80s and 90s. You sat next to the engine as you drove. Sitting in the back seat of one of these was about like sitting in the front seat of a typical truck or car. Being that far forward in one of these gave the driver a better view of the front when making turns. I used to take my friends for a ride in them and freak them out when turning or parking close to things. lol I did, however, have ONE van that was a rear engine, based on the Corvair Greenbriar. It drove better in the snow due to the extra weight at the drive axle, giving it better traction. I really miss my old vans!
There’s something cathartic about watching a guy on a bus talk about busses
For me who lives in Germany the appearance of a nose Bus is something very unfamiliar. Almost all of the busses as well as trucks are flat noses, and as you mentioned I think it's because the vastly different road infrastructures that Europe and the US have. Narrow roads and tight turns call for high maneuverability and an excellent turning radius, which can only be achieved when the wheelbase is shortend while the space inside stays the same. We also have city busses with engines in the back standing upright, which makes maintenance much easier. The only time I've seen nose-type busses is in very small ones, that are based on designs of something like a Mercedes Sprinter, VW Crafter or similar.
And most busses are flat floor with lowering mechanism so prams and wheelchairs can just roll on from the pavement
I can't see many technical issues with using nose busses in Europe (unlike trucks, where you want to maximize cargo space within the legal length). I assume that the demand is different though. The US seems to commonly place responsibility for school transport on each school, which will then need a fleet of low cost busses for those few daily trips. School transport in Europe is commonly organized by local authorities, which will utilize busses from their existing public transit fleet.
In Europe there are laws limiting the maximum dimensions of a vehicle. Then a dog nose is a waste of space compared to COE or flat nose.
Most motor coaches and city buses are rear-engined in the US--I think the ubiquity of front-engined school buses is more a matter of cost than anything else; school districts are nearly always short on cash. Conventional front-engined designs are also common for livery service vehicles like airport shuttle vans which are shorter and lower-capacity.
Flat nosed or what’s known as cab overs are actually the norm here with mass transit and interstate bus travel. There’s also quite a lot of cab over use with small delivery box trucks. However large trucks and heavy duty construction tend not to use cab overs.
Unless I missed it one advantage to having the engine in the rear is traction. Having that extra weight over the drive wheels is a big advantage in colder climates like in Canada where I drive in the snow quite often.
It also helps with interior sapce and ease of access. For city buses, this means you can have a fully flat, low to the ground floor as you don't have to worry about all the driveline components getting in the way.
That’s why schools close during winters, because school buses just aren’t adapted to Canada’s weather
but then you lose traction on the steering wheels
the opposite, actually. it’s more work on the bus if the engine is in the back
We get 5cm/2" of snow and the school buses get cancelled. Even when the road is just wet I see the school bus spinning it's tires when it picks up/drops off the kids. It's not only the front engine design, but the fact that the bus has a ton of low end torque. Couple that with rear wheel drive and you have zero traction unless you're in Arizona in June.
The catapult effect was the best part of sitting in the back of the bus when I was a kid! I loved getting launched into the air anytime the bus hit a reasonable bump.
Yesss OMGAHHH that was the best!! I've seen kids get fucked up getting launched in the air! We used to do something where a few time it just perfect and give yourself like just a little bit of lift with your feet You really get launched But the problem was you don't always come back down directly into your seat
never happened to my, because i rode busses in Germany, they dont have your now build bad suspension in the 60s and 70s!
This was my exact thought - why transit and motorcoaches always have rear engines while some school buses have front engines. For motorcoaches the "catapult effect" is a con, while for school buses - in the minds of kids - it is a pro. One of several reasons the cool kids (not me) always rode in the back.
fr unfortunately nowadays it’d be called child abuse
we had a ump like that most of the time our Driver, who was a super cool guy btw, gave us a good launch, but once in a while, he would see us getting ready and move over to miss it, just to hear the last 5 kids on the but all whine =) ahhhh good times
As a tractor trailer truck driver, we call the dog nose trucks “Conventional”, and the flat/snub nose trucks are referred to as COE (Cab Over Engine), or simply “Cab-Over”, because the cab sits over the engine.
I still don't understand HOW you repair the COE engine, without all your shit falling all over the place.
@@I_am_Allan You swivvel the cab out of the way, tilting it to the front.
PS: We call the dognose type "back steering" and the flatnose type "front steering" (short for "back of the engine" and "in front of the engine").
@@SiqueScarface "tilting it to the front" and the food in the fridge, your clothes, etc all falls forward, towards the windowshield.
@@I_am_Allan It does.
Ugh... How bout those full size vans doing the same thing
When I clicked this video, I didn't read the title properly. I thought it was about trucks. When I realized it was about buses I kept watching, because I'm convinced there isn't a cubic centimeter of the universe that isn't mindblowingly interesting. As expected, this video was mindblowingly interesting. I just now realized that I'll watch a lot of your videos, and therefore I'll have to learn a lot about motorcoaches. For starters, I'll have to learn what "motorcoach" means.
I'm happy with this. As I've said many times, "we learn while we live" is false. "We live while we learn" is true.
I've always called them conventionals (or more specifically conventional yellow dog's for school buses) and it's really a term left over from the trucking industry (conventional tractor versus cab-over tractor). What it typically boils down to, rural school districts tend to go with conventional designs where urban districts tend to choose motorcoach based designs (rear engine, flat front) to better facilitate maneuverability as there is less swing and the driver has a better view of the front which is handy when maneuvering in and out of traffic.
Yep, the conventional engines are also a bit easier to service as other designs may require lifting the cab or otherwise getting the rest of the vehicle out of the way rather than being able to skip right to lifting the engine out of the bay for work further inside the engine.
the "catapult zone" was the best part of riding the bus. the back seats were always the first ones to fill up while i was going to school. :P
I remember when I rode a school bus with a flat front end, but the engine compartment was also an "island" between the door and the driver's seat, which meant that you had to enter the cab of the bus in order to get to the engine.
My dad had a conversion van like that when I was a kid that he bought new, late 80's Dodge Ram, had to access the engine through the "dog house" inside of the van.
These were the loudest buses it's like the engine was inside the bus.
Is it similar to the old London's Double Decker buses? Since those buses technically is kind of a hybrid being a flat nose while having the engine on the front.
Rode a bus like this in middle school (late 80s). Stub nose front engine. The district has two busses of this type at the time. Now all are dog nose.
District my son goes to has at least two stub noses.
The last style of bus you'd want a engine fire in. I never felt safe in em having an engine between me and my exit.
Thank you algorithm. Your wisdom is never ending.
A diesel pusher, or rear engine (flat nose) bus, is a purpose built bus where the body is the frame. I maximizes all the space available within the legal length of the vehicle.
A cab and chassis, or conventional (dog nose) is just a truck pretending to be a bus. The passenger body sits on top of the frame like an accessory. This means no pass through storage underneath. A higher center of gravity and less usable space and a much rougher ride. Wheel base is also limited mostly because the engine transmission are up front which means a really long driveshaft with multiple carrier bearings is needed to couple to the axle. This also results in quite a bit of torque loss. The only benefit they really have is cost. Just my two cents.Good vid, thanks James.
Ah yes, the dog nose buses... More like a U-Haul box truck bus lol
I’m not super familiar with pushers but I believe they are still body on a frame. Unless you are looking at a coach bus which is a unibody
@@abc123456efg A diesel pusher is a term used mostly in the RV community to denote the location of the engine. Simply put a Diesel engine that pushes from the rear. Most diesel pusher rv’s and built in the same manner as a motor coach using unibody construction
The conventional design is better able to navigate gravel and dirt roads, which is why a lot of rural school districts prefer that design. When I was in high school, the bus route went down plenty of gravel roads.
easier to repair is what i like. if something goes wrong i'd rather be able to pop the hood sand have everything in the open than find which panel he problem will be behind and have to do close quarters gymnastics.
Ha Ha we call the freightliner motor coach a “party bus..” here in Chicago . I really enjoyed this video. Stay blessed
Bonjour, James ! I'm François, from Toulouse, France, happy driver of a Setra S419 GT-HD coach : 3 axles, 15 meters (49+ feet), 69 seats (+ mine), 480 bhp 16 liters V8 engine by Mercedes-Benz. As you probably know, most « flat-nose rear-end motors » coaches on the market don't really have a chassis with a box on top, but a self-supporting body (hence the name Setra, abbreviation of the german word « selbsttragend », invented ca. 1950 by Karl Kässbohrer) or « auto-porteur » in french. This explains every pros you mentioned about them, such as comfort, less noise, better balance, stronger traction,... I love your videos !! Keep sharing the good stuff and take care !
Thanks Francois. Yes I actually did a video that explains all of that. It was the video about the history of Van Hool. ruclips.net/video/zsQdR12J9zc/видео.html Check it out if you want!
I appreciate your kind words! Thanks for the comment!
I’m a motor vehicle enthusiast in general from cars, to motorcycles. But I never considered that anybody would be a bus enthusiast. This is kinda cool
You are correct about the old VW buses. I drove my '68 bus for years, and I became very comfortable sitting on top of the front axle, with my feet swinging around ahead of the tires. It takes time to get used to it, but it's a very comfortable, upright position that is great for long distances. Plus you have precise control in tight spaces.
Greetings from n.ireland, I'm over 60 yrs old and have never seen a bus with a bonnet, all flat fronted.
I spent a few years driving a school bus for a school district in upstate South Carolina. I drove both traditional and flat-nosed transit styles. I have a strong preference for the transit style! Once I got the feel for maneuvering the beast, it was so much easier to drive.
I enjoyed this video. Thanks for sharing.
I once drove a dog nose school bus when I was a kid. It was a 1979 International Harvester S1853 Schoolmaster school bus that was rotting away (along with a bunch of other vehicles) on my great-grandparents' farm in a small rural town in Northern Michigan. I don't remember which diesel engine it had, but I don't remember hearing a turbo whistle so it was probably NA. It also had a 5-speed manual transmission, and the clutch was so heavy that my seven-year-old self had to stand on the clutch pedal in order to get the pedal to the floor. The shift pattern was different than any others I've seen. Most 5 speed shift patterns are 1 2 3 4 5 R, but the shift pattern on the bus was 1 R 2 3 4 5.
In Europe, we have all flat front coaches and the majority of them rear engined as we like to say.
But not too long ago Volvo offered a chassis called the B12m/B10m and the B8r / B9r / B11r / B12r and B13r (B standing for the chassis model, 12/10 meaning the litres, and the M / Rmeaning where it was situated)
B12m chassis' had their engine and running gear in the middle of the bus (between the wheelbase)
And the B11r chassis had their engines mounted at the rear.
Many people (myself included) would argue this is the perfect place to mount the running gear because it has a much better center of gravity. Especially on bumpy roads this is ideal compared to rear engined coaches where all of the weight is in the back, leaving it as we say, very jumpy.
The B12m succeeded the B10m in the early 2000's due to emissions, and the B12m was unfortunately discontinued in 2010 again due to emissions, which was then succeeded by the B11r chassis we have today.
Volvo Coaches are typically bodied on the B9r, B11r and the B13r, which the B8r and occasionally B9r are used for citybus and intercity coach bodies.
We had a number of B10m / B12m's on the Plaxton Paragon and the Jonckheere body. We operate Vanhool's today because they are the only rear engined coach we find that handle like a middle engined coach due to their weight. Leaving them a lot better on bumpy roads.
B10Ms were simply work horses. Things will go forever .
Didnt know i could sit though a 17 minute bus video
Nice job
One more comparison is how each type handles in the snow. When trying to stop a conventional coach will want to slide the rear end more, and a transit or flat nosed will have the steering axle go out from under you faster. I drove both types, started out in a conventional old late 70's International. Then after a few months was thrown into the drivers seat of a transit. OMG I was scared to death for a while until I got used to it. I was 19 at the time way back in the late 80's. Ended up with 10 years on the road for school, OTR coach then the RTA before giving it up and getting into what I do now here in North East Ohio. I had a Chauffeurs license then and had to convert to a CDL later. I keep my CDL up just in case but retirement is 7 years off now, so not looking likely I will be behind the wheel again.
This one cracks the top 5 for most random recommended video ive watched all the way through 🤣
You would hate to see what some of the public-school systems used back in the day, some had busses that ran on gas and the fuel tank was near the door and one accident in 1988 (former school bus later became a church bus) changed everything about bus safety
For anyone interested in the bus accident story here's a link for it.
ruclips.net/video/abn7_YX6o4Y/видео.html&ab_channel=FascinatingHorror
Those designs still exist, but there are more emergency exits in modern builds.
My local school district still runs some gas busses
Hello from East Central Illinois! I just came across your channel and loved the video! Cheers
We can all agree that both types are great! Buses and trucks are awesome. Good video!
I'm a bus driver at Walt Disney World. This is very interesting. We have many Nova buses in our fleet.
Bus drivers are incredible. As a 1972 high school student I was on music tour with an all-county band in Germany, France, and Belgium and there was one instance where our bus driver maneuvered a particularly narrow and winding street with the buildings practically up to the edge of the road. I was amazed. He drove very, very slowly to be sure where his vehicle was at all times.
The cab over design or flat nosed if you prefer was originally designed for use in cities were turning radius is reduced. It also improves visibility when the vehicle turning
When I transitioned from a jet with the nose wheel out front to one with the nose wheel behind the cockpit, it wasn't much of a learning curve. You do have to keep it in mind when making tight turns, especially on narrow taxiways, however. Great vid, James!
Y'all are some big nerds, and I love that. It's always interesting to listen to people involved and knowledgeable in their craft.
Good video James always look forward to Wednesday or Thursday to see if there is a new video posted. I was a bus driver from 1970 to1990 when my company closed the garage doors permanently. So, I put my college degree to work and took a job as a High School History teacher. Two weeks later I was a substitute school bus driver. Two years later I was Director of Transportation for a small town rural school district. We had 11 routes and a fleet of 7 Bluebird All American FEs and 7 Bluebirds on Ford chassis and an old worn out PD 4107 activities bus for a fleet of 15. There are 4 types of school busses with the most common being Types A, C, and D. What separates the four types weight, passenger size and were the front door is located. Types A, B and C the front door is located behind the front wheels and Type D has the front door located in front of the front wheels a coach. In my world of school busses Type A was called a Mini bus and it was a cut away it had an independent driver's door on a van chasing. Types B and C were called commercial chassis and Type D was called a coach or transit style or a nickname was CRACKER BOXES.
In my opinion you were trying to compare flat front MCI J4500 to pictures of very old 2000 commercial chassis school busses, no comparison. The comparison should have been the J4500 to the black Executive Cut A Way, dog nose, independent driver door coach or the black party bus and school busses should have been left out.
There are three school bus manufacturers that I am familiar with Bluebird, Thomas which is owned by Dalmer/Frieghtliner, and IC owned by International Corporation. School busses are built like tanks, builders are continually trying to improve on driver visibility, that's why you have funny looking dog nose commercial chassis school busses, Passenger safety and economy. School busses are built to haul students to and from school in under one hour not over the road for four.
I can go on about school busses but I will stop. One question to the CROWN geeks who might read my post why did CROWN put ten speeds in there school busses?
If someone said "hey you should watch a RUclips video about different kinds of busses" I would've ignored them, but I'm honestly fascinated now. I thought a lot about this in grade school and I literally haven't thought about it since, but this is a super interesting topic and you did a great job explaining it.
I died with laughter when he called us “bus nuts”😂😂
I remember the Catapult Effect being widely considered a pro back in my school bus riding days.
The Flat Nose or CabOver design help give a better/tighter turning radius. That's why European tractor trails are mostly Cab Over, because of the old narrow european roads.
And why back when the Interstate system in the US has a length limit, Cab overs were extremely popular.
I expected to get bored a few minutes in, but instead I got completely sucked in and was surprised the video was ending! Thank you for accepting me into the motorcoach world.
Thank you for the kind words Benjamin. Means a lot to me.
Comments like these give me the drive to keep making videos like these.
I'm a "safety manager" in a national firm that contracts the operation of various types of bus services. My location has 40+ "dog nose" type buses and they are legally referred to as "cutaway style buses" or "CSB"s in all our documents.
Really enjoy your video BTW.
Thanks Brick City Builder. Thanks for sharing the name. Ive heard them called so many different things LOL>
Here in Australia, we use transit and coach bus for schools and trips. I haven't seen front engine bus. Australian use flat front end busses, there's a time lag whenever you turn, we called it over hang. When leaving parking, try to leave a gap infront and park your tail at slight angle away from the kerb. Thus will ensure you won't have deadly tail swing.
I'm retired now and in the last seven years of my working life I drove buses just north of Brisbane, Australia. All the buses had rear monted engines with the driver sitting about a metre in front of the front axle. It was certainly important to be aware of the location of those rear wheels as you were going around tight corners. They were also very good at getting remarkably close to another bus at a terminal and being able to still pull out from behind.
The city busses here, often butt up against each other at bus stops, or in traffic, close enough you couldn't squeeze between them.
@@ItsDaJax The front of the bus almost moves sideways because the steering wheels are so far back.
@@ItsDaJax That's one of the reasons for it in the city. That space may or may not be the difference between fitting past the light or being stuck blocking part of the cross street. It also makes a huge difference in terms of the space needed for bus stops on streets where the buses pull off to the side rather than just stopping in traffic.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade I'm aware.
@@Parawingdelta2 The steering radius of a coach is far better than that of a truck. Like you mentioned, almost able to go sideways, like the nose wheel on an airplane.
Back in my hometown (Zaria, Nigeria), Toyota vans are used for public transit.
The International bus at the beginning with the weird nose is called a "Vista" Bus. From what I know they were only available with bodies produced by Thomas, and were usually sold with an International chassis during the 1990's, although some Chevrolet buses from the 80's also had these bodies available. They sold pretty well in the Southeast of the U.S. from what I know and were available in different body styles and lengths. The design was ivented to have better visibility than a dognose bus without be as "unsafe" as a flat front bus.
Thomas have been putting their bodies on a lot of different chassis. They have used International 3800s as a normal chassis, I’d assume it was just to switch things up a bit to wrap the body around the engine as well.
I drove one of those Vista's for a few days years ago. Comparison one what they felt like was a Step Van which would be similar to a UPS or FedEx delivery truck. They really were not that bad of a bus. I think the one I drove had a T444E in it.
@@pugmalley And the Vistas were a cross between a a standard conventional and a COE. (Thomas has built both conventional AND COE designs since 197x; the Vista design lasted only two years.) The Vista was a *transitional* design until Freightliner and MBNA (Mercedes Benz North America) had their own conventional design that replaced the FS-65 - which had many different front ends (International, Ford, Dodge, Chevy, GMC, etc.). The conventional design from MBNA today is the same conventional design that replaced Vista.
@@PGHammer21A
You're close. The Vista does date back to the late 80's with the Chevy chasis. The Vista was not a cross between the Type C and the Type D (the flat-nose, transit, motorcoach style buses) per sa, but maybe more closely related to the Type B (traditional bus body on a step van chasis, which at the time, both GM and International produced). The Vista was just not a good bus; terrible to drive, and a real pain to maintain. At the school system I worked for, we were glad to see them go. The Vista was definitely a designed that Thomas was toying with mainly for International. At the time, International Navistar (or whomever), were in talks over purchasing Thomas Built, which is why you only saw the Vista as a International, and not a Ford during 90's. By then, GM only provided chasis for the Type A. When the company was bought by Freightliner, the Vista was shelved, if not before then. Fast forward to the mid 2000, Thomas and Freightliner come up with the new C-2 to fit on the new business class chasis (I think that's what they call it). While I don't know if the C-2 and the Vista are related, but the styling cues are definitely there.
They were somewhat common in the midwest also! I miss those things!
1:14 is my hometown winnipeg manitoba Canada, can't believe we have something new enough to be put in the video LOL
As a kid in elementary school, I took a school bus to school and back each day. The driver, H., had to deal with screaming kids and all the usual. My buddies and I would sit in the far back, but H. would let a kid sit on the engine cover in the snub-nosed bus he drove, as a reward for behaving or simply being nice. There were no safety devices in the buses then, and I now realize that in a fast stop or crash, any kid on the engine cover would have sailed through the flat plate-glass windshield in front, coming out likely resembling cole slaw. I've often wondered how Harold did, but I'm sure he's gone now as this was over 50 years ago!
By the way, not all flat-nosed buses were rear engine.
Lol screw safety. That would have been awesome.
Lol screw safety. That would have been awesome.
As a Truck driver and a part time Bus driver, Truck drivers call the stub truck a Cab over , COE ( cab over engine) . Enjoy both of your channels .
Thank you James! I like your name by the way LOL. Appreciate the info.
Sitting in front of the front axle was never a problem for me: i just keep track of where my rear axle and rear overhang are going when turning. Having driven a mid-engined MB200 and my rear-engined T812, i definitely prefer the rear-engined T812 because it is way more silent. But the semi-automatic gearbox of the MB200 is a real treat. Both are what you call "flat nose".
I’ve only driven a cabover bus once, a 90’s Blue Bird, for training. The company for which I drove had Blue Bird All American T3’s with the ISL in the back. Beautiful buses. Then moved to motorcoaches with the ISX or Detroit 60 in the back. Only other thing I’d driven are conventional trucks, which, for obvious reasons cannot be rear engined. I cannot imagine why, given the choice, companies, and RV owners, get front engined buses.
Dodge made their compact pickup truck like that in the 60s (Remember the A-100) that the steering wheels were directly below the driver and the engine was under an island inside the cab between the two bucket seats.
@@glennso47 Detroit was "pressured" to downsize and reduce weight. The appearance of the Volkswagon busses and interesting 2 seat flatbed pickups resulted in the "Big Three" and Jeep producing flat front cab over / control forward utility vehicles.
Conventional = Engine at the front of the bus covered by a cowl.
Transit = Any bus without a front cowl. If the engine is in the front, it is under the driver and covered by a "dog house."
Glad I found your channel. I have worked for my local school district as well as two charter companies.
I definitely prefer transit buses, and I would like to share some of my most and least favorite features of the buses I have driven.
MCI J4500:
Pro: The curved stairs and the ramp that leads into the passenger compartment.
Con: Steering tag axle instead of lifting axle
Van Hool / Temsa:
Pro: The service door which opens parallel to the bus instead of extending out like a sedan door.
Con: Both made overseas and can be difficult to get parts.
Prevost H3-45:
Pro: Tall luggage bays. Most luggage can be loaded vertically on their wheels making loading and unloading much easier. Plus, extra storage bay in stairwell under first passenger seat.
Con: Restroom door often slides open when making turns.
Prevost X3-45:
Pro: Panels over the rear wheels can be opened making it easier to install chains in the winter.
Con: Fewer compartments for driver's convenience.
Here in Brazil we have a majority of flat nose buses, as far as I know, every single bus that is still in production here is a flat nose model, in the state where I live (Pernambuco), they mainly have frontal engines, with the exception of articulated buses and most motorcoaches, they're normally built in truck chassis that are modified by the manufacturer to recieve a bus structure on top.
The top part of the bus is normally manufactured separated from the chassis. The most common chassis manufacturers here nowdays are Mercedes, Volkswagen, Volvo, Scania and Iveco, as for the top portion, we call those manufacturers "encarroçadoras" ("Wagon makers" if translated literally), there are Caio Induscar, Marcopolo, Neobus, Mascarello and Agrale as more common active ones, there is the Busscar, which closed in a decade or so, and some old ones that are out of market for decades (Also worth mentioning that we had/have some foreing produced bus, like old Marmon-Herrington trolleybuses, some Irizar buses that were produced under license and so one).
The "dog nose" ones are normally old buses, they were called as "Jardineiras" (Meaning "Planter/Gardener/Overalls"), some with Ford or Chevrolet chassis, adapted from truck chassis, with a single door near the front axel, one model to search for, as it was the most common, is the "Caio Jardineira", that is a term for a major section of models produced by Caio with this design, also the "Caio Gabriela Andino" ("Andino" means "The one from Andean Mountains", "Gabriela" is a common female name), the last one being mainly used outside of Brazil in other South American countries (Hence the name refering to a mountain chain outside of Brazil). These models were normally used on rural areas, where you woun't find paved roads, nowdays they're normally 4x4 versions of flat nose buses.
Worth mentioning that here in Brazil there isn't a standard rule for urban mass transit buses regarding door numbers and so, there is the "PADRON" study that came to a conclusion to a bus with large enough windows, large enough doors and 2 of them, one for entering (Normally foward of the front axel), the other one for exiting (behind the rear axel in most states, but in Rio de Janeiro you can find them between the front and rear axels). The state where I live has an extra middle door for handicap embarking and disembarking (In other states, they would normally use the rear door) in the majority of buses (The ones who don't have them are normally not adapted for handicap transport, as they don't have a wheelchair elevator, yes, this was a reality up until the 2010s, and some buses from that era were still in operation up until 2020, this in the metropolitan region, as rural places still operate old buses with this configuration). Articulated buses have often 3 doors, we're still talking about right side doors, but the amount tends to mirror to the left side if the bus uses that too in stops (On the BRT systems, for example, as they bypass the ticket gate, so you pay the ticket to board the station instead of paying it inside of the bus... Aaaaand some people find their way to bypass both and ride for free... Brazil is for professionals), but here where I live, as well as in some other states, you might see articulated BRT buses with 4 doors on the left side (Search for "Mobi-pe Caio Millennium BRT" or "CoNorte Neobus Mega BRT/Marcopolo Viale BRT" if you wanna see photos of those), and 3 on the right side, yup, it's a mess.
As far as trucks go, currently we only produce flat nosed trucks, you can find some "dog nose" ones, but they're not in production anymore, some more recent, some older, like the Scania 111S (Nicknamed "Jacaré", means "alligator"), Scania 113H and Mercedes Atron (This one ceased production about 2 years ago, being the last produced semi-truck "bicudo", as we call here, it means "The one with a big beek/nose"). The reason why we don't have them here anymore is due to regulations, as here the maximum lenght of a truck and semi-truck also counts it's cabin and nose, so a flat nose gives you more space for cargo, but in the case of rocks, sand and other dense grains and materials transportation, those "dog nose" trucks and semi-trucks were still used, due to the weight of the cargo exceeding the maximun allowed by law before the lenght and height would ever do, and as they were cheaper to maintain and looked prettier in the eyes of some truckers.
Nice tidbits. Thanks Wong!
I always refer to the "flat nose " tractors as "cab-overs". Cab-overs became popular back when the length of the overall length was more restricted for tractor-trailers on interstate highways. Cab-overs had more internal engine noise and rougher ride comfort for the driver.
I am licenced to operate a 53 passenger bus in Japan. Flat nose rear engine. Its also a 5 speed manual. (Electronic stick and a traditional clutch) its a mitsubishi fuso. Its fun to drive
When I lived in NYC, my routines had me frequently in neighborhoods around the bus depots. Whether it was new drivers or old drivers on radically new equipment (like the transition from high to low floor buses, or from repurposed local buses to commuter grade express buses), it was always amusing to watch the drivers learning to corner the buses. Especially if you caught the show by a stop that had a supervisor or two. Later in life, when I finally got my license, the lessons learned of always knowing where your wheels are and the center of your turning radius, helped a great deal. If only they'd had some advice for parallel parking (besides DON'T).LOL!
When I was working for a moving company, they wanted us to start parking along the spaces, and not in them. Had to parallel park one of the straight trucks a few times, have done it on the street, backed down a whole apartment complex road once. Doing a bus... whew. Have done it once, since the school board requires you to be able to back them up in a space, with about three feet of clearance between you and the other two busses.
I have driven buses, trucks (semi and box trucks), motor homes and now a school bus since 1974. I have always heard the different style buses called, "conventional" and "flat nose". Your video pretty much covers the reasons for the two styles and their uses. Good video.
Having driven both types of school buses, I greatly prefer the rear engine type. It has greater visibility and just drives better in my opinion. Love your channel!
I drive a 2019 Irizar i6s on a 3-axled, rear engine chassis from Scania. Yes, we're in Europe. The coach has a front door and a door between the axles. This door is called a middle door. To the right of it sits an under floor restroom/toilet, to the left is the access to the driver's bunk and on top a pantry with two 40 cups coffee-maker and a water boiler. 54 reclining seats with USB outlet for each passenger and a 230 v power socket for each double seat. 14.07 x 2.55 x 3.93 m = 46 ft 2" x 8 ft 4" x 12 ft 10". Luggage space 38 ft3. 450 HP and a 12-speed-semiautomatic gearbox, Opticruise. Only mini and a few medium-sized buses have dog noses in Europe. Some buses and coaches are build on chassis with underfloor engines, but the majority are rear engined. The popular brands are Scania, Volvo, Iveco, Mercedes, DAF/Paccar and MAN. An Irizar has great access to all components, and the mechanics can almost stand or sit in the engine compartment. Greetings to all of you from Denmark!
At my small bus company, I have an intentionally mixed fleet of Thomas rear engine transits, one front engine transit, and a mix of conventionals, including a Lion (diesel) which is the only school bus for sale in the US with a 102” width. My entire reason for the mixed fleet is “driver preference”. In order to attract the best drivers around, I strive to make sure we have a bus for every driver.
That’s fantastic! As a driver, my main gripe with companies is equipment. There are some rear engine coaches I like, the Blue Bird T3 with the ISL was really nice, but an International with the albeit oppressively loud MaxxForce was a beast. Much more power than the ISB. I have driven a cabover once, and will never understand why people order them. Hot, loud, and in the way.
@@jaysmith1408 The B Series is really meant for smaller buses and trucks (6.7 L engines are great for midibuses like the Alexander Dennis Enviro200, while 4.5 L engines are better suited for pickup trucks). You could get away with using the 6.7 in 40' hybrid buses, but that's about it. Those buses with 4.5 engines wind up being ridiculously anemic, especially if they're hybrids forced into diesel mode like those Borismasters can be if the batteries fail.
In the RV world the Truck chassis with the passenger box (living space for RV) is called Super C class
Oh man, as a car enthusiast since birth, I was so stoked in elementary school to see my school bus one day pull up as one of those weird long/flat nose hybrid International buses. I always sat at the front of the bus, not because I was a good kid (which I was) but because I always wanted to see what was going on in the drivers area of the bus. Riding a regular long-nose bus normally to school, it was interesting to see this weird thing pull up to pick me up. As an adult, having not seen one in a long time, I too am fascinatingly curious as to why that bus came to be... it is very strange in hind-sight.
They still use these buses in the short configuration in So. Cal
Hell yeah brother. When I was 9 years old I asked my parents for a school bus toy . I was fascinated with the roar of the engine, the air brake. My district had a mixture of both dog-nosed and snub nose buses. I always thought that the snub nose busses were more comfortable. Now I know why. It was the noise difference.
Neat video . You're making buses seem so enticing 😬. I was always amazed by the power they had.
Living in the frozen north and having the chance to drive both types of busses in the past, there is one note you missed. The flat nose bus preforms better in inclement weather, IE doesn't get stuck in the snow as easily. This is due to the reason you mentioned, weight over the drive wheels. However, this also means you have to be gentle with the steering as it is slightly easier to lose traction on steer wheels without the added weight up there. Whereas the dog nose tends to offer the ability to power slide a bus full of people without loss of steering. A few passengers find that fun, mostly kids. Up here this is how a majority of tow calls start. Of course, like anything, all of this can be mitigated with proper rubber/studs on those "boxes".
Here in mn the MTC uses many “ articulated “ busses which have their engines in the rear. However those articulated busses got stuck very easily when pulling away from a bus stop. I rode busses for years and hated it when I would get one when it snowed . Just my opinion based on my experiences of course
@@arthurbrumagem3844It seems you are describing a pusher type. There are tractor types; mid-engined and middle-wheel drive. Better articulation stability.
I remember well the catapult effect of the long rear overhang on dog-nosed school buses. When I was in grade school my friends and I always sat in the very back seat. The bus route crossed a bridge over a small creek and there was a big bump up onto the bridge deck which the bus drive never slowed down for. We would get launched fully off the seat into the air. We figured out that the effect could be amplified by jumping up off the seat a little before the rear bus tires hit the bump. If you timed it right, you would be coming back down just as the seat started coming up. You would hit the seat thereby compressing the seat cushion and get an extra upward boost. Done just right, you could touch the ceiling of the bus. Great way to start the day each morning.
Been there and done that. One time the person in the rear seat ended up one seat forward after the bridge. The driver slowed down after that.
As a US school bus mechanic. I do like the “conventional” as we call them or type C bus because of the reasons you stated. The worst is the front engine flat nose. Very noisy and unless you are working on the valve cover, it sucks. Rear engine aren’t much better, school buses typically don’t have side access doors like coaches. Great video!
Rear-engine school bus manufacturers should look into addressing that flaw.
@@sonicboy678They can look at European buses (Volvo 9700 DD, Mercedes-Benz Citaro, DAF XB chassis, etc.) for inspiration.
Recognizing lots of shots around Springfield Illinois! Great summation of the differences. A lot of folks call the rear-engine design a "pusher", which is funny because the engine location has nothing to do with the location of the drive wheels! 😅
I remember being a bus enthusiast in high school. I remember buses also being classified as 4 classes: Type A- Type D. Type A's are the (usually) smaller dog-nose buses attached to smaller van/truck chasses ex: Collins Bantam bus model. Type B was also a dog-nose, with a smaller chassis (often slightly larger than Class A: and passenger capacity ex: Blue Bird Mini-Bird. Class C would be the dog-nose conventionals, with larger carrying capacities, usually mid-larger buses (48-60 pax) like Blue Bird Conventional, and Class D's were the Transit-Style (flat-nose) styles, both front and rear engines, with medium to very large pax capacities (up to 90 pax), examples being the old Crown Coach, Blue Bird TC-2000 (FE/RE), Thomas Saf-T-Liners, etc. As a kid, I used to call Crown Coaches "Roundbacks" and the other transit-style buses "flat-nosed rectangle buses"! Very informative and interesting video bringing back fun memories of my high school years, where I took the school bus to and from school!
Thanks for the video! I have a Toyota Hiace Grand Cabin and I love how clean it looks with the flat nose. To be honest that's the main reason why I wanted one.
Hi James, I have a video idea for you. Have you ever noticed how school buses that have wheel chair lifts have smaller tires? Even your typical 40 ft school bus will have smaller tires if it is equipped with a wheel chair lift. I've noticed that not many people know why that is and I thought it would be a great idea for a video. Keep up the good work my friend. 👍
@@linuxninja I am a school bus driver myself but I am not talking about the length of the bus. I am literally talking about the size of the tires on the bus. Have you ever noticed how any school bus with a wheelchair lift will have smaller tires than the regular buses, while the frame stays the same. My theory is that they are that way so there won't be a hump at the rear inside the bus, thus making the movement of wheelchairs inside the bus easier.
@@ariceagaandros Could they be running a smaller tire to allow extra space for kneeling to make a flatter surface for wheelchair users to enter through?
What I've found interesting as far as wheelchair lift equipped buses go is the way the buses at Disney World in Florida have a rear door that can convert from normal stairs to a wheelchair lift.
I find this to be a pretty neat feature, and I haven't seen it on any other buses I've ridden on.
Manufacturers do this to allow for a completely flat floor inside & to get the floor level closer to ground level so the wheel chair lift won't have to work over a much greater distance. A standard 22.5 tire would require a floor 4 feet from ground level to accommodate the tire circumference while keeping a flat interior floor (just like a typical Ryder truck) & allowing for normal suspension movement. Instead, they use the low-profile 19.5s & that enables them to build the floor over a foot closer to the ground & still maintain the flat interior floor while still providing complete suspension movement. You can always tell they're stretching the envelope slightly because all of the special needs buses have a bit of a rake to them.
Coming from Montréal, I can definitively say that Nova's LFS are one of the classiest !
Even as a very young child, I was always fascinated by buses, and always wanted to become a professional motor coach operator. Many years later, after spending much of my career in public service, I by chance opportunity got to attend a open house recruitment for bus driving jobs in an east coast state. After being hired, obtaining my CDL, and being trained on school buses, I was assigned to the company's transit and motor coach division, where I operated every type of equipment that they owned. My favorite were the motor coaches, which I drove all over the east coast and into Ohio and Canada. I probably would still be working there except that I relocated to another state where I took another executive assignment in my former career field. When I tell people of my time as a professional bus driver, they seem confused knowing of my past. But, honestly, it was a dream that had long been deferred. And, I would quickly do it again. By the way, I was only one of two drivers at the company who could operate he self-shifting MCL motor coaches that the company owned at the time.
I didn't know I was interested in buses until now. Now I'm interested in buses.
I drive a rear engine Blue Bird school bus. I definitely prefer driving it over a front engine bus. Much less noise and more comfortable. They are also more fun to drive in my opinion. Great video!
Thanks for sharing Joe. Ive never had the pleasure of driving a Rear engine School bus. I have driven a front engine School bus and yes they are loud.
I still remember riding home 10 miles on a Gillig 108 passenger school bus with tire chains in the 1970's during a freak snow storm. I thought my teeth were going to fall out. I also thought these were mid engine but I don't have any knowledge about if there ever were any mid engine school busses.
As driver with experience across school, transit and motor coach I tend to like the flat front of transit and coach. I notice in the US a lot of urban school bus routes are flat-front "type D" transit style (as apposed to "C type" Conventional school bus). I surmise this is for the same reason transit buses are as it minimizes the tail swing and one can maneuver the door into curb-side better with out hitting or riding the curbs. In transit we could slightly overhang the curbs when pulling in eliminating the gap that passengers had to cross especially in some common designs of terminals and bus loops. Also I like the quieter ride on the longer transit shift or coach run to another place far away. However, my students love the catapult zone on the speed humps.
Just an anecdote on the Toyota Previa (that flat nosed minivan Toyota made). I don't know if it improved over the years, but my parents got the 2-wheel drive version of it when I was in college. It was so poorly balanced with the engine sitting in the middle of the car (to check the oil, you had to lift up the middle row passenger seat) that we would literally slide on surfaces that we had no business sliding on at sub 10-mph (dry leaves on a slight incline, damp asphalt). My dad didn't initially believe the rest of us, thinking we didn't know how to drive properly, and then he couldn't get up our driveway in the rain one day and it was traded in the next day for the 4-wheel drive version. These were probably the 1989 or so version of the car. Admittedly, the 4-wheel drive version worked far better and they kept it for a number of years.
Conventionals are also usually less wide, and don’t have a huge amount of room in the inside, this is coming from someone that has a school that used to have almost a full fleet of bluebird All Americans and TC2000’s, we now only have Bluebird T3FE’s and a ton of visions. My grandma has driven both school buses and coaches for 30+ years, of course she’s retired now but one of her first coaches was a Bluebird LTC-40, and I know another one that she drove was a Thomas EF commercial W/C bus.
The catapult effect was the best part of our school day. My neighborhood layed out in a way that about 6 of us were the last ones on the bus. The main road of the hood had a sink spot that created a double dip. We had convinced the driver to just motor on thru it while we all got into the back 2-3 seats. It used to toss us into different seats, bounce us off the roof. It eas a grad time. There was also the next road over that were nicknamed "THE SEVEN HILLS". When we got older the 3rd hill in was great for getting cars airborne, but in the school bus they felt like a rollercoaster.
Good to see you James. Belated happy New Year. I drove them all. I still prefer a rear engine coach. A guy I worked for used to have Crystal 38 passenger buses.. I drove them in and around the Wash DC area and I didn't like the steering and they were noisy and didn't have air rid. A+ for the topic. The flat nose trucks you referred to are know as Cab Overs. The semi trucks with a front engine are called conventionals. Stay safe up there.
I'm not into buses but this really got me watching of why
The term you're looking for is called "Cutaway" for the truck based buses. I avoid them like the plaque, and I think they're significantly much more difficult to drive than a normal bus.
Don't know how I ended up here. But that was incredibly interesting and informative. Thanks !
I’m always amazed at how ugly North American buses and coaches look compared to what we have here in Scotland.
The company I work for have Neoplan Tourliner’s and VDL Futura’s for tour and private hire.
We primarily see 50 foot Plaxton Elite’s for intercity services although we are now seeing more and more Panoramas. Most places use ADL Enviro singe and deckers for local bus routes although a lot of operators also run the smaller Optare Solo’s on tight routes.
I’ve really been enjoy your content, it’s interesting to see the similarities and differences on many aspects of the job, keep them coming 👍
Ah the Neoplan, Yes, we have them in the US. Can't remember when I saw one last. I seem to remember an articulated dual front axle coach.
It's all relative....we find many North American buses good looking compared to European coaches. Just depends on what you are used to.
British buses are so so much better than these huge American buses.
The ‘ugly school buses’ is an icon to America, literally show anyone in the world a picture of a yellow school bus and everyone knows it’s an American school bus, same for the iconic NYC yellow Victoria cabs. Wish I could say the same about Scotland
Yall's stuff looks ugly to me, our stuff looks ugly to you. I think truth is, it's all ugly. Lol
I always wondered this, just never bothered looking it up. Thank you!
I rode the bus when Gilligs and Crowns were still making buses, manual transmissions were just as common as automatics and before that crossing arm safety device existed. All the bus drivers on my route over the years strongly preferred the transit style, rear/mid engine buses because 1) Visibility up front because this gave them the confidence they could track and account for all the kids crossing in front of the bus from the driveway onto the bus. 2) They claimed they were quieter. 3) They loved the maneuverability and would proudly drop the fact that they would win the bus roadeos (if they did win and they mostly the Crown drivers). I love the look of the transit style school buses.
Crowns are the best
Gillig is still in the bus building business, one of the largest transit bus builders in the US. Built in Hayward, California down the road from Tesla in Fremont.
I drive a special needs school bus, flat nose, front engine, short bus. I drove a 2007 Thomas truck/bus for my first 5 years. I hated that thing. The truck chassis shook that bus apart, me included. I recently upgraded to a 2016 Bluebird. What a difference! It has a coach chassis and drives like a dream compared to the Thomas. I much prefer the flat nose for the visibility, especially where children are involved.
I love driving a Nova Bus! We have them here at Disney World. The Articulated Nova (60’) is wayyy more fun to drive, and ironically easier to drive than a regular 40’ bus. But you’re kinda right about how the drive. The 4 feet in front of the wheels is accurate, but they drive surprisingly the same as most transit buses.
If you are a Disney Castmember bus driver, thank you for everything you do. Not enough people give you guys the credit you deserve. They just like to complain if the bus is taking too long.
I never knew I was interested in busses until now. The RUclips algorithm has blessed me with another great video.
No matter the subject, I enjoy learning from your well thought-out and produced videos! Thanks, James.
Growing up taking a bus to school I remember taking both kinds.
I’ve heard the dog nose style called a “cut-away”. In most cases this refers to the passenger body being attached to an incomplete or “cut away” chassis.
Thanks Marcus Jones. Yes Ive heard that term as well. Ive heard them being called so many different names I didnt know which one to use LOL.
@@MotorcoachWorld cut away refers to a truck or van chassis having some type of body (like a bus or box ) put on it
@@MotorcoachWorld cut away in school bus usage would refer to a van chassis bus and IC's AE and AC, the f550 and M2 chassis are also examples, since part of cab is removed vs conventional school buses which are built on a cowled chassis which hood, engine, steering wheel, and dashboard are included. A Thomas C2 is a cowled chassis based bus as it uses a different windshield than the related M2. My assigned bus is a C2.
I just have the nostalgia of sitting at the far back of a school bus down here in Louisiana with really bumpy roads and hitting the bumps to get that big jump effect. I remember some kid hitting the roof like an idiot with their head.
I've always just assumed a conventional bus would be easier to work on than a rear engine mount because you can get to both sides of the engine easier though visibility would be better in the latter. Then again I've also always wondered why most semis have a conventional cab as opposed to the cabover variety I saw so much as a kid back in the 70's as on those the whole cab could be cranked forward on a hinge? making the whole engine area have easier access on a COE than on a conventional. Aesthetically I think conventional busses and semis look more attractive though I do have a soft spot for the 1940's "Old Look" GM buses with their detroit diesels. :) Growing up, my folks bought a 1959 Ford "D" bus as it said on it's builder's plate. We turned it into a camper and used it for many years on trips and vacations. It was just slightly shorter than a modern school bus with I think originally a seating capacity of 66. Of course it was conventional and it had what I thought was a tiny engine for such a large vehicle, a 292 cid V-8 and I think it's top speed was 60mph....65 or 70 downhill with a good tailwind, lol.
Not necessarily. With he cab over design, the entire cab will tilt forward allowing access to the engine. As long as the engine clears the cab, there's not much difference as virtually any modern engine, whether a bus or a car is going to need to be removed for most work that needs to be done. Compared with engines from 60 years ago, the engine is likely to fill the entire engine bay of a typical vehicle. This necessitates its removal for most nontrivial work.
A retired OTR truck driver saw this suggested by RUclips and had to watch to find out.
Wow, this is a tought topic! About the half nose, it was supposed to be the best of both worlds, as in, engine in the front, without the weird curved stairwell, with the giant dog house (the engine cover thats on the inside for those that dont know). The snub noses don't have that, and have a traditional stairwell.
But, they used the space that would be empty under the dash, shoving the engine, like in a van (why vans built on truck frames, i.e. Econolines, Express, Ram, had smaller hoods). So there was no need for the full nose length. THey were thought to be better in cities. The issue I heard was that they were a pain to work on, so they stopped making them that way.
I think Id condense a bus design to cost, driver maneuverability for the area where it operates, and maintenance....which I guess is the same for anything, except if you drive a Hummer H1 lol
Also, I can't give you an LFS but if you want to drive my DAC, youre more than welcome. It has more front overhang than the Nova. Doing sharp turns feels more like moving sideways lol.
Very informative and interesting, thanks! My son and I were talking about school buses and wondering why some were flat and some had a nose, so we found this video. Thanks for making and explaining:)
The short nosed busses, that look like hybrids between longnose and flatnose, are also truck based, but this time based on a flatnose truck design. As the engine sits directly behind the front axle, but the passenger entrance door is behind the engine, the driver's seat is placed also behind the front axle to allow for interactions between driver and passengers e.g. to pay the fare.
So they are basically like the old Mitsubishi minivans but in large.
I have driven one of those late 80s Toyota vans and it’s like driving a miniature bus. I’m always amazed to see the calm nature of most bus drivers, especially in tight parking spots.
OMG! So that explains why on many school buses I've taken with noses, the motor tends to be a bit louder in the front while on other public buses with flat fronts, the engine would be in the back. That must mean that school buses with flat fronts have their motors in the back. I didn't know too much about that until now, thanks for this explanation! :D
Not always, the easiest way to determine where the engine is is to see if there is a window or door out the back. if you can see out the back, the engine is front mounted.
Nice video, but the city transit style busses with the engine in the back are much easier to turn in tight places like narrow city streets and really don't take any extra time to learn how to drive.
When I was an elementary school student in the US in the early 1990s, the school system of the city I lived in had both the "nosed" and "flat-faced" kinds of school buses. At that age, I considered the nosed variety to be "normal" and the flat variety to be "ugly".
Always loved the massive panoramic view of a flat nose as a kid while chatting with the bus driver
I've watched a lot of schoolie builds and I've never understood why people chose the dog nose or front engine buses. I would totally go with the rear engine. It just makes more sense for the reasons you mentioned.
It is all about maintenance. School buses have very long service lives (15-20 years minimum) and do almost exclusively stop-and-go driving, so easy access to the engine and the front suspension and brakes for maintenance and inspections is important.
@@stephenj4937 In a school district setting it makes sense. For a schoolie conversion, in my opinion does not make sense.
@@Mr.Ramirez95 What's the difference of the word "school" between a "school district setting" and a "schoolie conversion"?
@@raygrinders3918 not sure if I spelled schoolie correctly. It might be Skoolie. Where people buy a retired school bus and convert it to an RV. The engine should be in the rear for comfort.
I would choose a conventional because they look better, and eaiser to work on. I like coaches and transit buses, but school busses look best as a conventional FE. The only reason a RE would ride better is either; has air ride, or has double wishbone front suspension. The city's Gillig Lowfloors ride nice, but they seem like wallow, and bang the bumpstops on hard bumps and potholes.
You mentioned the VW and Toyota vans. I had a bunch of the mid to late 60s Chevy vans back in the 80s and 90s. You sat next to the engine as you drove. Sitting in the back seat of one of these was about like sitting in the front seat of a typical truck or car. Being that far forward in one of these gave the driver a better view of the front when making turns. I used to take my friends for a ride in them and freak them out when turning or parking close to things. lol I did, however, have ONE van that was a rear engine, based on the Corvair Greenbriar. It drove better in the snow due to the extra weight at the drive axle, giving it better traction. I really miss my old vans!