Why are buses in North America so Ugly to Europeans?
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Many people from Europe find the buses we use in North America really outdated and ugly compared to those in Europe. Is this actually true? Or Do Europeans have a totally different taste in sleek futuristic buses?
Could North America be behind the time when it comes to bus fashion?
Well in this video, we will take a look at all the cosmetic differences between buses in Europe and Buses in the U.S.
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Would love to see a drivers cockpit comparison between European coaches to North American coaches. It looks like European cockpit designs are more advanced and and offer more driver comfort features.
Just as long as you don’t order the Ancient VDV Cockpit that’s still a thing.
Second that
@@melvinsantak8619 isn´t the advantage of the VDV cockpit that a driver can drive and bus safely without much studying of all the buttons and stuff? When you work for a big transit bus company for example, that has got different manufacturers and busses of various ages in its fleet, and the driver could encounter different models multiple times a week depending on the shift he´s driving.
Compare an enviro 200mmc to a bus like the new flyer xcelsior. The xcelsior cockpit is so dated
@@melvinsantak8619 Sure, the VDV dash looks a bit boring, but even that looks modern compared to the absolute mess that's found in an American city bus.
Weird metal toggle switches... twist handles, rotary dials for day and night running, different sized gauges, CB radio between dashboard and steering wheel, high beam and blinker pedals and all that other wacky stuff.
The main thing is bumper regulations. Notice European buses have flush front/ rear while US have to stick out. It'd kind of like Euro cars vs the US imported version of 80s & 90s. When you don't have to incorporate big bumpers you have a lot more freedom in design.
The Setra S417 sold in the USA for the last 20 years do not have front bumpers that stick out. Also, for the last 11 years, the rear bumper does not stick out either!
The North American designs are generally regulated due to safety concerns, look at the front bumpers and it sticks out further then the European market buses. Also the North American Insurance companies also has a say, many design features are done that way in North America to cut the cost of repairs in case of an accident, it is cheaper to replace a panel then it is to replace a bus. Now on the other hand European busses are designed Aerodynamically to get better fuel mileage and Europe I do believe now has stricter emissions Regulations then North America does. In a nut shell that is why busses are different here than there
With all due respect, American Eco laws are vastly inferior, especially on Domestic vehicles. They are just ridiculous on imports to protect the market.
For Example CASE and John Deere have completely different engines Designed in Europe for European market. CASE also uses IVECO engines.
Both Fuel economy and Ecology of American made Engines don't pass any standards at all here. Flat out, not even Market Bias.
Just Put 2 engines on the same table, apply same standard. Euro Engines pass in Japan also. Most strict market.
I agree there are alot of rules and regs to be followed during manufacturing and with maintenance. I want safe not pretty.
How come we don’t have much diesel personal vehicles in the usa? I feel the emissions laws here are stricter than in Europe. There’s plenty of A to Z diesel cars there even a Honda and Subaru. Subaru failed to deliver a diesel version here in the states.
@@GalenlevyPhoto Well If you look at history you can see why.
In the 90's European Turbo diesel cars almost caused extinction of Gasoline passenger cars.
They were faster more powerful, and almost as responsive on throttle.
On top of that Price of Diesel was almost 1 half that of Petrol. While Fuel consumption is almost 1 half or in worst cases 30% less than Gas cars.
I worked in the Oil refinery myself for 7 years. Im an Mechanical engineer BTW.
To produce Diesel fuel You take 1 l of crude oil and you get 70% back as Diesel fuel.
To make Gasoline you take 1l crude oil and get 35-42% Gasoline depending on the Octane.
Aka Production and use of gasoline depletes Crude oil reserves faster, which is the Ultimate goal of people who own it. And people who own it are not Average Joe from some rural town.
Also Two countries who have strong dislike for Diesel are Two countries with alot of Oil Tycoon's USA and Great Britain.
So basically its an Economy issue.
Few Western economies that invested alot and depend alot on Oil as Economic filler can not let Large amounts of Crude oil left unused.
For Emissions It semi manufactured BS.
Both Gasoline and Diesel vehicles Pollute in the same way. Both have certain emissons that are stronger and others that are weaker respectively.
NOX is a manufactured emission ,that is a product of Enforcing unrealistic expectations and invoking critical failure in Diesel engine Fuel burning cycle.
Resulting in Incomplete Burn that results in Exhaust gasses not being well sated and NOX is a chemical lacking Oxigen. Thats also a reason they incredible OVERSTATE its killing the Ozone.
It actually does but they amount of Ozone it can Kill we would be in danger in 10000 years. With Euro 3 level cars. All of us.
Euro 2 ,last real Diesel engine was not producing NOX unless there was a malfunction or heavy wear on the components of the engine.
Black sooth from the Old diesel engine is a result of Dirt air and Diesel impurities in the fuel. So not the Engine but Fuel is dirty.
Engines Burn is so efficient that it Burn Everything so it Burns any dust and particles in the cylinder at the time.
So basically in the end Economy recap.
Having a Car that runs on Diesel ( Euro 2) That uses less fuel, fuel costs 50% and Production of Fuel is 2x more rewarding means Oil reserves will never be depleted since alternate Powertrains started to be pioneered. So whoever owns them will suffer extreme losses.
That's why you have NOX.
Manufactured pollution to preserve economy.
EPA will grasp to any straw they are offered these days so they did.
They reduced Carbon footprint but Induced few new polluting elements that never came out of tailpipes before.
Euro 6 emissions are still much more lax than US ones. But regarding Greenhouse Gases you might be right.
One thing you missed is a regulation about bumbers and headlights. European buses have the bumpers and headlights integrated to the design, where as in US there is some rule that says the bumper has to stick out, or be a separate piece somehow. Same with headlights.
I think the reason US buses look 'weird' or 'ugly' to us is just that we're not used to seeing them. I think it's (was) the same with cars. Nowadays when american cars are more common here (and lots of cars are produced for worldwide markets) it's not noticable but in the 90s on 00s i remember i found US cars really ugly as well. Not that they actually were ugly, they just used different styling queues than the cars overhere that i was more used to.
But the crack in a windscreen is a violation here as well and needs to be replaced.
US busses are objectively ugly regardless of regulations.
Even Philippine busses are prettier
@@carlosandleon I’ll be completely honest, (I’m American, so don’t take this to seriously) I never noticed a difference.. yes, the bumpers looked weird, and yes the stupid bumper regulations makes our cars looks a lot more ugly. But I’m never notice a difference in them. I’ve been on a few coach busses in the UK and the EU, and I never really took into consideration on the difference in bumper looks. I always noticed the amber turn signals and clear front headlights (we require amber reflectors up front in our road legal vehicles, I think it’s much better from a safety standpoint, but it makes all cars look so much worse. Thankfully some Chinese company’s make clear reflectors and marker lights to make the car look nice and clean up front.
Long story short, I’ve never noticed the difference between European coach busses and American ones. I always thought they were the same (more or less)
windshield*** It is not a screen...
@@allentoyokawa9068 It's a windscreen or a windglass here, and a windshield in america.
Nah, North American buses are objectively inferior in build quality, design, and materials.
Coaches in sold in Mexico combine the best of both worlds, they have the size Americans want but the design and efficiency from European coaches.
I have often wondered myself why North American buses, especially transit buses, look so weird to me as a European. I think you made some good points (split windscreens, short overhangs, framed windows ...) but to me it looks that with many transit buses in North America, less effort is spent on the design aspect. They are simply utilitarian, boxes on wheels to get people from A to B. Just look at the lights -- many NA transit buses have very generic lights. And especially from behind, some NA buses look just awful.
Yes Very true. Ive noticed the lights too. Good to hear from you Martin!
The strangest thing to me is the very short overhang, specially in the back. It serves no practical pursues. Well it would give more high speed stability, but typically that is not a issue even with European busses.
From a structural standpoint the small overhang really is not that beneficial.
I guess sort of a benefit is that the bus only cut the corner on the inside, and not both the inside and the outside, but to me that sounds really more something that is about expirance.
@@matsv201 To put it differently, a bus with a short rear overhang doesn't simply whack oncoming traffic with its rear left corner when the bus does a tight right turn in a tight urban environment. Sounds like a good idea to me. Still, strangely enough, European transit buses often have considerable rear overhangs (in Berlin, we had some with almost 3.5 metres!). That really takes some experience to not go around whacking traffic when turning.
@@MartinIbert Its not really that much of a issue if the transitional curve is done correctly, and that is something that is quite important at least in Sweden (i studded a a civilian engineer, and road planing was in the scheduled, i never actually worked as a road planer, only railroad).
A other thing is that if you have a very tight corner with the wheels closer to the middle a part of the bus overhang inwards, and a part outwards.
And i kind of think that the american view of Europe is a bit lob sided. A lots of Americans tend to belief there is only inner cities in Europe. Typically the local busses go in to city center, then in some cases go out to the highway and go up and down the ramps to collect people.
Just the core of the towns often are quite old and there for very dense.
Sometimes in buss dense cities they use sort of buss super streets. I have a really cool example of this in Spain i try to post a link
@@matsv201 I don't know whom you mean by "Americans". As I said earlier, I live in Berlin, I and I have seen MAN Lion City DD buses with their enormous 3.405 metre rear overhangs go around tight right corners. Those things really swing out a LOT.
European here: I too did find US buses “ugly” and I didn’t know exactly why until this video. For me the main reason is the lack of frameless windows that gives the buses the elegance and modernity. Even the European buses from 20 years ago still look great because of it. The bus at 10:48 looks great with the frameless windows, even if it is still boxy. It has surprised me that frameless windows isn’t a common thing on US city buses. Don’t get me wrong, there are tons of ugly buses in Europe (especially those made by small manufacturers that buy the bus chassis from a big manufacturers like MAN and Mercedes and then put their designed body on top of it, sometimes with lights from different bus makers).
I remember that 10 years ago the MTA in New-York tested the articulated Mercedes-Benz Citaro (the most famous European city bus, for those who don’t know, it’s the bus at 11:20) for a couple of months but didn’t buy it because of regulations.
as a resident from chicago we dont want to pay more taxes to have a fancier public transit bus
@@gabe606 let’s face it, people in the US don’t like paying more taxes for anything really
@@gabe606 What kind of argument is this? Why build a fancy and architectural unique city library when you could just build a ugly commie-style block that saves taxes? You could apply the argument that aesthetics are irrelevant to function to every tax dollar spend. Thankfully we don't do this, otherwise we would live in a hell of an ugly world.
@@gabe606 So why do you pay more taxes for bespoke fire appliances which are absolutely festooned with chrome and flashing lights? European fire appliances are far less ornamental and use standard lorry cabs.
@@gabe606 congrats.. you win dumbest comment of the day.. maybe week even
Oh boy...another comment. As somebody that did go to college for automotive engineering, particularly trucks and buses, and in Europe...yes, the short wheel base is specifically to make tighter turns. Us models (as well as some older VoV standards in Germany favored smaller overhangs, to avoid collisions with pedestriants.
As far as the doors, passengers in Europe (excluding VoV buses in Germany, that only have a front and middle door) are the ones that punch their own tickets. The driver simply drivers (often in a separate cabin or compartment). This is also why AC was rare on European buses just 10 years ago, since there would be no point as three or four large doors would let all the cool air out in an instant. Couple that with the average stop length in a European city, being cca 200m, there simply isnt enough time for the AC to cool down fast enough, not without significant consumption increase. So in the US, the rear door (if present at all, as I did drive Tranport of Rockland buses, with only a front door, and theese were Gillig Phantom buses, 35ft and 40ft). I will mention that there are also buses with 4 doors for solo and 5 doors for articulated (Sor is the make that does this often).
Europeans also tend to forget about Russian buses, and their standards, which share A LOT with US philosophies when it comes to building buses, although they also have European layouts as well, plus their own weirdness, such as front and rear doors only in the overhangs, and nose-less buses (what I call them) where the front axle is directly at the front, with the driver having a door like on a cabover truck, and the first passenger door being behind the front axle.
Ok...Im geeking out WAY too much. Im writing as if it was a bus forum LOL
You’re doing just fine as this indeed is more than a forum could ever hope to be.
@@marvinjgerald6007 lol. Thanks. Im still semi active on some bus forums (Romanian speaking though), and I have written up LONG posts there, which at least can stay in order. I am writing a book on the topic, which all of 2 people will buy lol, plus writing a technical manual for a Romanian bus (only because I own two of them, and there will be times I cannot do the work myself, since Im old and disabled...). I should mention I have published a novel too...so I kind of like writing lol.
Oh, if its any relevance, I am active on a Lincoln forum, where I was the resident early 70s Continental expert, with repair writeups, with photos and what not. Im sure some younger kids are picking up the slack. Sorry..its late here, and I tend to really ramble. I get anxious that Im not working lol. I have so much to do, so my fingers just type away!
fantastic comment, I enjoyed it!
@@herzogsbuick Thank you! That made me smile!
Most buses in Portugal have just two doors (three for the articulated units) to avoid fare evasion.
Carris of Lisbon has also buses where the wheelchair ramp is on the front (like in the U.S. buses), as opposed to the rear, likely for the same purposes. The average distance between stops at Carris is of 500 metres, more than twice the European counterparts, with the suburban companies averaging a full km.
Air conditioning is now a must in any new bus nowadays.
I really enjoy the styling of European buses. America and Canada are just afraid of trying anything new. 🤣 As you travel south to Mexico, Central America, and south America you really start to see European styled buses again.
In south america most are Brazilian brands
@@740mc Isn´t those just licence builds?
@@matsv201 What do you mean by licenvce build?
@@740mc that its built by a local manufactur but its built of a drawing from someone else. Like how brazil build there own gripen fighter.
@@matsv201 Nope, the main Brazilian brands are Caio Iduscar, Marcopolo, Mascarello, Busscar, NEOBUS, and Comil, they ar all designed in house
In Sweden we mostly use Volvo 9700 coaches, even though Scania, MAN, Setra and Mercedes are very popular aswell. For city services Volvo 8900, Scania Citywide and MAN Lion's city are the most commonly used buses. I think every single one of them looks way more modern than any US bus today!
One remark to the windshield. A cracked windshield here has to replaced immediately as well. But I can indeed imagine that it is a cost issue. Same with the framed windows.
Regarding wheelchair ramps, i can see a handling benefit with the ramp in the front, but European buses usually have special places for wheelchairs to safely ride against a dedicated rear facing backrest. There is a rather open space for wheelchairs, strollers and sometimes even bicycles (very rare) right behind the middle door. The aisle from the driver and the front door to there would be rather narrow.
2 cents is fine for us as well, it would be eurocents then.
Laminated Windshield crack, Tempered Windshields shatter. Laminated windshields are mandated in the US under the concept of being "Shatter proof", Tempered glass are stronger but when they break they shatter into many small pieces but are used in many European countries for tempered glass is stronger then laminated glass. Most other glass in US vehicles, other then windshields, are tempered glass.
@@paulmentzer7658 The windshields have to be laminated (safetyglass) in Europe as well. It's a different story for the side windows though. That would not be any difference between Europe and the USA.
@@VivaSo I use to sell replacement glass for automobiles. I lived in an area with an active Navy base. Every so often our windshield installers had to replace a tempered windshield. The owner, generally an officer, had purchased the car in Europe and no one caught that it had a tempered windshield when it was brought to the USA. Just a comment some European countries may require laminated windshields but not all of them.
@Paul Smith I use a wheelchair now but I am on a light rail line. The light rail line was designed to have "High Level" and "low level" stops. Thus in the front side of the vehicle you have two doors. The first a door with a set of steps to be used on low level stops. Then behind it and beside is a large double door that I can use on any of the "High level" stops. Those double doors are also behind the driver so I have the whole width of the vehicle to mave my wheelchair. It is a lot easier then on the local buses for on the buses I have to turn in half the width of the bus and with my mobility scooter it is a very tight fit. I barely make it. The last time I used a bus I had to remove my arm rests for the arm rest caught on the side of the door and I could not move. Thus I like using the Light Rail Vehicle but hate using a bus.
Just a comment on one of the reasons I prefer Light rail over buses.
@@paulmentzer7658 Most likely a somewhat older car I guess. Since cars manafactured before certain dates are excluded and still have to meet the requirements of the time when they were manufactured. The safety rules now a days are more or less the same across the EU region.
What makes american as well as australian motorcoaches awkward-looking really is their dimensions, particularly the short overhangs and long wheelbase. It does have a huge impact on the overall appeal, and although the design language of motorcoaches are quite outdated, it won’t look ugly if adjusments on these dimensions are to be made. See, even those “americanized” Eurocoaches looks ugly because of those alterations.
Coming from Europe, I do generally find our coaches more appealing, although not by that much, and specifically of the first two you put together (MCI for America, VDL foir Europe) I actually like the MCI more. However, the American transit buses I do find quite hideous compared to their Euro counterparts.
Your transit busses do they have alot of roaches like US transit busses?
Im someone who serviced fueled washed did the tires & vaulted busses in a garage & the city busses had numerous infestation, if u park the city ones for 40 minutes when u get on again & hit the lights all u see is things moving on the floor. Wait an 1hr30-2 hours u start to see a ridiculously large assortment of various creepy crawling critters to the point u dont even want to drive it let alone clean them!
Idk how the drivers deal with it cause if it was me id spray raid all over & open the windows. The people are disgusting the drivers too but u wouldn't know that unless u work with transit yourself & see how some leave food or trash like the riders do. So many times I got on to see endless sunflower seeds, 100s of chicken bones in the rear seat area that looked like a voodoo ritual took place. However the coach busses or MCIs were often so clean theres nothing to sweep except dust maybe 1 coffee cup.
@@LordNexusTheFir I live in Czechia, and my city uses all sorts of Skoda trolleybuses for city transport (most recently the Skoda Tr32, owned by the city and operated by Arriva, first deployed in 2019), Setra S418 LE Business, Setra S415 LE Business and Iveco Crossway LE Line buses for regional transport (Owned/Operated by ČSAD Slaný, deployed in 2021) or the Scania Citywide LE 12m (Owned/Operated by DSÚK and depolyed in 2019), and all coach operators here (RegioJet and Arriva) own the Scania Irizar i6s coaches (deployed in 2019/2021 respectively).
Not once in my life have I seen a roach crawl up from somewhere, whether it was city, regional, or long-distance travel. (same applies for trains)
And if something like that appeared, the bus driver would probably refuse to drive that bus further with passengers and request a backup bus, which would wait at a select stop and the passengers + driver would transfer over into the not-roach-infested bus seamlessly, with the old bus being taken away for inspection and deratization.
The worst thing I've seen was some mold on a SOR BN12 city bus, which are still in operation but are set to be replaced within the next 2 years. Even backup buses are generally clean, though they do miss stuff like A/C and information panels.
I also like the MCI a bit more than the VDL.
It feels more nice-looking and more practical than the VDL bus itself. In Portugal, we don't have too many buses like the VDL in first place, the companies prefer to mount a Volvo, MB or MAN chassis on a Caetano/Atomic/Irizar bodywork, despite having some Setra and MB integral units on the road.
The only U.S. transit buses that looked nice for me were the NovaBus LFS and the New Flyer Xcelsior series, which isn't that old.
Not just Europe, take a look at the Brazilian buses right here in South America. Brazil is a huge player on bus and coach market and Brazilian buses can be found all over the planet. Design is a crucial feature here, especially when it comes to coaches. Marcopolo is one of the biggest body makers in the world, and they spend millions of dollars on design development in every single project. Even the small manufacturers here are always trying to upgrade their models with facelifts quite frequently. I've worked with coach chartering recently, and I can say that if a vehicle doesn't look new and modern, some clients won't even take a further look on the service conditions. And if we're talking about city buses, new good looking buses can be used as political advertising for city and state elections. It's all about the looks!
A few random thoughts throughout the video:
1. Proterra also features a one piece windshield in the North America transit bus market
2. I'm unsure about Europe, but much of transit buses in North America are driven by a procurement process where the customers (transit agencies) put out their required specifications and manufacturers bid competitively in an effort to propose a solution that best matches the customer specifications and for best value. This typically dictates everything from framed/frameless windows, floor types, whether the ramp is at the front or center door (or both), how many doors, doors on the driver side (see New Flyer BRT examples), etc. The process is what I consider to be very distant from "purchasing something off the shelf".
3. I believe why there was never a North American transit bus with a 3rd door aft of the rear axle is because just about all North American buses were designed with a "traditional" center mount + T drive or V drive drivetrain. Whereas, many European buses (such as the Vanhool A330, which was imported to the US Transit market) featured a longitudinal/side mounted engine which opened up the space to allow for a 3rd door (4th door in the articulated version). One exception was the Orion VI, which was a North American bus also with a longitudinal/side mounted engine and also can be optioned with a 3rd door.
Japan & Australia still use a similar low-entry instead of low-floor design probably as the engine is placed in the rear centre instead of to the side, immediately below the centre aisle. So the bus' rear has to be high-floor to be able to fit the engine beneath. Also interestingly the BYD K8 midibus (~9.5m) commonly seen in Shenzhen, China uses a high-floor design although it's an electric bus (& thus the drivetrain takes less space, while the batteries could be placed elsewhere e.g. the roof instead of underfloor), while the 12m version, the K9, does have a low floor instead
In Europe, the number of doors on buses (along with the seat layout) is defined by the distance traveled. Ideally, articulated buses running on routes in city centres will have 4 doors and a 2+1 seat layout, with larger open space opposite the doors, while the ones running on longer suburban routes might be more efficient with 3 doors and a 2+2 seat layout.
I've done a lot of touring of Europe in the past and their coaches are built for their roads. Tour operators know if they will be in a city or traveling inter-city. Inter-city coaches resemble US coaches with longer wheelbases, more seating and more comfortable. But inner-city they chose slightly smaller coaches with much shorter wheelbases for maneuverability. In fact, in Istanbul our coach driver couldn't get through on one road due to a car parked next to the hotel. So what did they do - get about 6 guys from the hotel who picked up the car moved it out of the way! So in my opinion through observation it's really function that dictates form. Beyond that, regarding their aesthetics: I would say that in Europe tourism is big business. They must have good looking and very clean coaches. In the US, not so much. So ours are more utilitarian.
Its not just the wheelbase that's affected by the narrow streets, its also the wideness of the vehicle- so thats probably why American buses look boxier- we have wider roads, so our busses and cars are wider, hence boxier.
It's true, plus here in the US the need for buses is quite different.
No buses will ever be as beautiful as the GMC "New Look" series.
100% agree. Rolling art. And the sound and smell of the DD two-strokes. I miss them. I miss the rattle of the windows in the frames and the seats vibrating. And I miss how they would lock up in direct drive when you hit 30 mph. I grew up wanting to be a bus driver precisely because of the New Looks. I'm 55 and never pursued that and it's still a fantasy, though nothing is as beautiful as the New Look.
@@mikenb3461 oh yes, the 2-Stroke Detroit Diesel roar is the one thing I miss about my city’s MCI Classics, the last of which were 1992’s retired in late 2015
And the flxible new looks
I concur
Check out the "Disney Resort Cruiser" operated by Tokyo Disney Resort. They seem to be the closest contemporary design to the classic GMC New Look series.
From the time I lived in Germany, the busses there use a different way to pay. You can pay as you get on, but more often, people in Europe pre-buy tickets (like a day pass, weekly pass, monthly pass, or even a year pass). So for people in wheelchairs, who would be most likely to purchase a special ticket, they can get on the bus at any door. In North America, people have to pay as use the public transit, getting on at the other rear doors is not allowed. Sure, some people in Europe do try to sneak on and get free rides, but they have people who check randomly if tickets are in order. In Germany it is called "Schwarzfahren", which means to ride without a ticket and if caught, there are heavy fines, and even bans are possible. It's not worth it to ride for free.
PS - I love how you put in Star Trek cut scenes. More of that please. :)
Also, you should check out South American Buses (mainly Marcopolo and Modasa) , they are really beautiful because most intercity and many international trips are taken on double decker busses (most of them have 180 degree lie-flat seats).
Love the vid coming from the other side of the atlantic! To me the center wheelchair exit door makes sense since for the passanger its stright from the bay to the door, havent got to navigate the tight wheelarch on the front exit, and most center wheelchair ramps are electric anyways. Secondly, the futura has more curves since its based on the original bova futura, which vdl bought the rights to. Altho we have moved away from the boxy design as I think its because there is more competiton in Europe for bus body-builders, since most share the chasis and engine anyway. (Like Jonkheere, sunsundegui, plaxton and caetano all use the volvo B9R & B8R) A standard coach 12m dual axle coach in britain will have anywhere between 49-57 seats with a center continental door + wc or a school coach will often have 70 seats. One thing ive noticed is how in the UK virtually no coaches have locker mounted AC, its always on the roof, just another thing to point out. I think UK coaches do look better and are more familiar to passangers with the better design, but in the UK there is a larger selection since all are very task-specific. They might be used for school, charter, holiday, intercity, commuter, long haul, vip, airport the list goes on...
ps well done to whoever actually read this and you did butcher the names of plaxton and futura keep up the good work :D
Generally, speaking I think European vehicle manufacturers have better and more appealing designs. American vehicle designs in my opinion have a reputation for looking bland, boxy and industrial, which I think makes the overall product less appealing to the customer. Case in point is American trains (I hate brushed metal, especially American subway trains). American coach buses are okay if a little generic, while transit buses tend to look pretty hideous. Thankfully American manufacturers are taking cues from European design. I find that even Latin American buses have a pretty European look to them and look really cool!
I suppose when I see US transit buses, the first thought coming to mind is 'cheap', due to the boxy design, massive bumpers, and framed windows. The impression I get is "I must be poor to use this", I think EU bus styling tries to 'seem' more upper class and 'fancy' to encourage usage.
And European looks like they were desigmed by six year old kid
Many of Japan's commuter rail trains have a similar design of using unpainted stainless steel bodies too (other than a stripe in the colour of the line the train is assigned to run on, with different line having different specs e.g. different no. of cars/trainset, or if the loading gauge is narrower so that the train can also run into subway tunnels directly connected to commuter rail lines. The latter will have additional emergency exits at each end too, but usually off-set to the right (for JR East) instead of centre, probably to let the driver's console be wider
The EU passed a rule a while ago shortening the 2 axle busses to 13.5 m I think. Volvo does say the 9XXX busses assembled in Mexico are the only ones that get a split screen. Finland ,India and Poland busses are single screen.
Only the US-market 9700, which is indeed assembled there, gets the split windshield, all other models made in Mexico have single piece windshields.
@@emanuelbrito7190 Good to know the Volvo information did not specify that. I assume USA/Canada busses end up south also though as I have seen pictures of busses in south America with split screen. Thank you.
@@badgerpa9 yep, mostly older MCI coaches end up in Central American countries.
it would be interesting to see a comparison of mpg's that EU/NA buses get and to see if the more curvaceous front body style improves the mpg at all for european buses with regards to aerodynamics, it may seem irrelevant but it doesnt take much aerodynamically to make a difference with a cars mpg so it would be interesting to see if the same applies to buses :)
Buses have so much frontal area, and tend to travel at lower speeds that I would expect it doesn't make nearly as much of a difference as on cars.
I believe the European buses are also built lighter than the North American counterparts, which will lend them an advantage in fuel efficiency. North American buses are starting to catch up with the aerodynamic shaping, but are still as heavy as tanks. I'll take a heavier and sturdier bus over the lightweight transporters.
Remembering the US Gallon is smaller than the UK Gallon, but a litres/100km comparison would work easier if those figures are available. And yes, the curvy front will improve economy at highway speeds, though it's entirely possible to make a boxy shape as economical, though that usually requires small fins and deflectors which the boxy US vehicles don't have.
If that comparison was made, you'd want to compare buses of similar interior volume. I wouldn't be surprised if a "normal" bus in the US would be considered a Superwide Chungus in Europe. We get people taking Ram 3500 duallys through the drive-thru and no one thinks it's weird. sprinters and Transits look comedically narrow on US roads. Our lanes are big, so it's possible our coaches are also wider just because they can be.
@@hawktb9 I also would take something sturdier for buses, knowing that many companies in Portugal like to abuse their buses - even Carris does that, with their older buses still running after 16 years, and with the last retired units (the Volvo B7L bodied by Camo) having 21 years old.
Great video looking more in depth, I know I’ve previously mentioned the split windscreen in use on what appears to me as the majority of North American buses and coaches, compared to what I’m used to seeing here in the UK. In some ways I guess it comes down to local requirements and needs. The middle door on coaches in the uk is commonly known in the uk as the continental door as it’s typically placed on the driver side of the coach for when the coach travels to Europe allowing passengers to alight to the curb side safely. Although intercity coaches commonly used in the uk such as the Vanhool Astromega, vanhool Altano, Plaxton Panorama and the Plaxton Elite interdecks have the middle door situated on the passenger side to allow for quicker loading and unloading, commonly found on the likes of megabus operations here in the uk. Although a fair number of smaller coaches used on these operations such as the Plaxton Panther, just have the one door at the front to allow for more seats and can have the toilet situated at the rear in a cubicle rather than sunk below in the middle by the secondary door.
Looking forward to the next video and what it entails
Hi James, fascinating video and I would like to add a few random remarks
1, Both the EU / UK and the North American market have tightly regulated standards for PCV vehicles which must be adhered to if the vehicle is to be used in service. This applies to both the initial construction and its subsequent operation, but… the requirements are different between the two areas and you cannot say one is ‘better or worse’ than the other. This would account for the difference in visuals
2, bonded glazing is a normal fit on virtually all vehicles in Europe, it is cheaper to build as you are gluing the glass directly to the body and do not have to arrange for the extra arrangements needed for gasket glazing. It also adds significantly to the body stiffness. Wrights, a Northern Ireland based manufacturer who is a major supplier to UK bus operators requires that if a vehicle is to be moved with glazing that is missing then special stiffening brackets must be fitted, these are temporary and are removed when the the glass is fitted. With modern bonding techniques the down time from fitting the glass to the vehicle being back in service is about an hour, although removing the broken glass to start can be a right pain.
3, Windscreens are laminated so chips can be repaired with the usual techniques, forcing an epoxy resin into the chip and curing with ultra violet light. The size of chip that can be repaired is dependent on its location, the screen is divided into zones, the zone directly in front of the driver has much more severe restrictions than an area of the screen that is way off to one side. Of course any crack in the screen requires it to be replaced.
4, Often the body builder and Chassis manufacturer are different companies so that the operators can operate the same chassis with different makes of body. Wrights will supply their body on any suitable chassis and will also supply an integral vehicle of the own design if needed. Most of the European Manufacturers will have a wide range on offer to cater for the vastly different requirements of the various operators.
5, One of the comments seemed to suggest that in Europe we kept our vehicles in service for a few years only… with a heavy duty vehicle ie, a Volvo or Merc, it’s about fifteen years minimum for a major operators then they are cascaded down to second line duties. On express work it’s about seven years on front line and about ten for duplication work, then they go on schools work or on private hires with the smaller operators.
I think the two main reasons are different safety regulations versus the rest of the world (FMVSS regulations versus UN regulations), plus many North American bus companies (especially transit agencies) being cash-strapped and needing to save money in any way possible.
One trend I've noticed among North American bus manufacturers is that they rarely introduce brand new models or even update older ones. For example the Gillig Low Floor has barely changed at all since it was introduced in 1996. It looked modern enough in 1996, but it's super boxy and old-fashioned in 2022. The NovaBus LFS also retains the same basic design that was introduced in 1996, but thankfully it got a facelift in 2009. The most recent all new transit bus we have in the US is the New Flyer Xcelsior, which was introduced in 2009. And in terms of coach buses, both MCI and Prevost are still producing facelifted designs that are decades old (such as the Prevost H3-45 and MCI D-series).
In essence, almost all buses you see in North America are decades-old designs that have only seen relatively minor facelifts in the last 20 to 30 years. They looked pretty modern 20 years ago, but less so now.
Yes I totally agree. I think North American philosophy is If its not broken then don't fix it LOL
i actually like the older aesthethic, a big problem with 2010s/2020s era design is that it ALL blends into eachother, and this goes for european buses
Hey James, have look at the buses in Asia. I live in Bangladesh and here are some of the most beautiful looking buses in my country:
1 Laksana SR2 Double-decker
2 Scania K410
3 Hino RN8
4 Hyundai Universe Express
4 MAN 24.460 Double-decker
5 Soudia Silky(Hino AK-1j, Ac)
07:24 - the Proterra electric buses built in California also have single windshields.
Last one...I promise. Who where remembers the Compobus? WIth that round wierd looking body? Also, the RTS was anything but boxy, and that (as opposed to the Compobus) looked great, and did look cool even in its Euro configuration with the Novabus WFD (although the standard nose, not the lowered headlight model which was strange, and a bit of a kitbash to use a Startrek ship building term lol).
You got the MCIs with the slopped rears, the MC8, MC9, 102A3, 102B3. The Flxible was a great looking strange model with its scientifically designed body. Also, lets not forget to mention, that every aircraft manufacturer in the US has built a bus. Boeing, Northrop, Grumman, Lockheed, all built buses at some point, and applied aviation tech to them.
Nobody complains about airplanes being flying tubes, right? I did mention why perception is different in one of my posts, but ultimately its a question of where form comes before function or vice versa. And industrial machinery has an aesthetic quality to it, simply from the nature of numbers, ratios and how the brain perceives these ratios (the golden ratio anyone?).
Bottom line, boxy isnt bad. Look at cars. 70s and 80s US cars look great. I am curious of the people that hate US bus design, what they would find appealing in a car...If they say jelly bean design, Im out. Drop mic. I rest my case.
the RTS was a weird bus design imo, to the point that Canadians requested a more conservative bus model (GM Classic)
@@anindrapratama True, but it was still very much far from a box on wheels. I actually like the Classic, although I always thought the articulated Classic with square windows was nicer than the forward slanted ones (i.e just a Fishbowl with Classic nose, and articulated. I would have liked to see a 60ft Fishbowl, or production RTS articulated versions, but at least there are photos of the articulated prototype.
The boxiest transit bus was the Canadian Car & Foundry TD-51, built in 1961-62.
@@dougbrowning82 I own a Dac bus...its European, and I dont think it can get boxier than that. Not one single round surface on it. At most you may get a cylindrical curve in the windshield. And it also has two, four if you count the side ones lol.
Our articulated buses here in Czech republic, SOR NB18, have 5 doors :DD I dont think US buses are ugly, they are just different. But I love how you make these videos so I can learn a bit more about US motorcoach and buses
Thank you Vladimir! Thanks for your comment. I love reading comments from people from other parts of the world.
8:30 Here in Denmark we often have an electronic "ticketing" (?) system taking up space at the front, plus the path round and past the driver, can be quite narrow and not leave much space for a wheel chair or a ramp for that matter. On the other hand, the middle section of the bus tend to be fairly large and open (as seen in the picture), because it is a dedicated "flex" area that also serves baby strollers, baby carriers, bicycles and space for peoples luggage. This is mostly the case for busses operating in and between cities. Also, I am not a bus driver, mechanic or otherwise employed around busses. I just ride them sometimes =)
In Canada, most of our city busses have a flexible space right behind the driver, and in Victoria, B.C. at least, there was a fare collector that sat right beside the driver. It was wide enough for people with wheelchairs and strollers to make the 90 degree corner, and get past the front wheel houses. On both sides of the bust, there was a 3-seat-bench facing sideways that could be folded for wheelchair access, and the first row of 2-seat benches also fold up for more space if necessary. On the floor were anchor points if the chair needed to be strapped down for any reason if I remember right. At the mid-ship doors, was usually a small open space, with a 2-seat side-facing bench (Here in Edmonton, I have seen this bench be replaced with a luggage rack, but I was on an airport priority route...).
In Victoria, all of our city busses had a folding, dual-bicycle carrier on the front of the bus. I don't think you were allowed to bring a bike inside the coach, unless it was a small folding bike, that was folded, or a child's size of bike that could not be mounted in the rack.
In Norway, we've just gone full app for tickets. You can buy via the app or via SMS.
No more clunky ticketing systems eating up space. It works pretty good. Far better than the embarassment the old style ticketing system was.
@@HrHaakon We have an app here in Denmark too, but you can usually also buy tickets on the bus
@@HrHaakon What about tourists or old people that don't have smartphones?
It's a culture thing. When I visited the US it already struck me that furniture, TV sets, busses and cars looked more old fashion compared with European ones. While in the US, those wood chest TV's were still in fashion, while in Europe the gray plastic sets were everywhere. It's a question of taste. I travelled with Greyhound and loved those busses.
It's not culture in the United States, everyone has a car and hardly uses any means of transport and doesn't care about that
I like the old fashion more, im noticing many gen z'ers actually hating this gray style
2010s/2020s fashion is gonna age pretty poorly, nobody is gonna want a all gray living room in 20 years while the old wood colored furniture is probably gonna become popular again
Canada and USA had "Grumman Flxible 870s"... but a lot of cities didn't opt for A/C as in the 80s and 90s, it was hella expensive to get added in.
The 870 had frameless windows, but, that meant no windows opened, and that caused issues in many areas.
In the mid-1990s, London Transit Commission (LTC) bought 3 or 4 Florida Grumman's (I think they were early 80s models), and ran them for 4-5 years.
They were great when the A/C worked, but as it required mechanics to do something in the engine, if the day went from cool to stifling (as Ontario springs and falls tend to), then the passengers suffered. (The only part of the window that opened, were small 8" tall by about 12" wide blocks at the very top.)
They were replaced with Orion V's and VII's.
The RTS II and 870(and subsequent Metro) did in fact have air conditioning hence the "sealed" frameless lexan windows. You would have to pop the trim on the bottom of the window if the A/C is not working. *see emergency exit instructions*
@@christopheryanoski6899 in London, Ontario, they had to be manually switched on, via the engine cover... drivers weren't allowed to do that themselves. They just had to let their passengers suffer, if temps got too hot on the bus.
Usually, the city would send a replacement bus. Sometimes, a tech would meet the bus as close to the Highbury Ave depot as possible, to switch it on.
@@I_am_Allan shouldn't have needed to do that considering the controls are all right there in the driver's area. And if people would learn to read (not you the people on the bus/driver's/maintenance. Lol) they would see a tag on the trim plate under the window (or seat ahead) that says ** EMERGENCY EXIT INSTRUCTIONS !! PULL TRIM PLATE UP AND PUSH BOTTOM OF WINDOW OUT !! ** That means the "sealed" frameless windows could just flap about whilst allowing fresh air in. It's not like they will get broken like glass....cuz they're actually Lexan.
@@christopheryanoski6899 SOP for London Transit at the time, was for drivers to call for maintenance when anything was "wrong". They weren't even supposed close windows, opened via the emergency lever.
Again, the LTC was just testing the Grumman's I think - seeing how A/C would be accepted. In 1994, LTC had one of the top three "oldest fleets" in NA.
Now, they have one of the newest.
@@I_am_Allan that just seems crazy to me. Then again I live in a small city in Pennsylvania so the driver's can actually do their jobs and all the mundane things like closing windows.
Coaches don't reallh differ that much, but the city buses - oh biy!
The newest American city buses look like European buses from the 90ies, and they still use the 60ies style bench seats and pull limes for requesting a stop (I think I last saw that in the 80ies iin Europe.
Not to mention the tiny doors on American buses. You can hardly squeeze a stroller through them, even less have an effective passenger exchange. But I guess if so few people use them that it doesn't really matter.
The reason for having the ramp at the second door is easy - the wheelchair or stroller can roll right in, no need to wiggle around a tight corner and wheel well.
Closest we have to the pull lines here in Singapore are horizontal yellow strips running along the top edge of windows throughout the bus' length that can be pressed to trigger the "bus stopping" bell, found on the Hispano Carrocera bodywork built on the Mercedes O405(G) MkII in the mid-90s. The buses have since been retired though (they're legally allowed to be operated up to 17 years, sometimes with up to 3 yr extensions here, probably for emissions reasons (I remember seeing a mid-90s Volvo B10M Mk4 bus that 'proudly' sported a "Euro 1" badge))
For decades, the Eagle line of coaches were not just the nicest to look at but the nicest to ride in! Couldn't beat the comfort, the look and the ride that came standard on
every Eagle built from the first one in 1956 to the last one in the mid-90's. Too bad they're gone now.
Form follows function. As you pointed out, folks in North America like their space and stuff. So you need a big bus. Combine that with, as I see many have mentioned below me, crash safety requirements and you get a box on wheels. Much harder and more expensive to get all those curves with giant battering ram crash posts under them.
One thing I do like about European buses that I wish would make it to the US/Canada is the curved high mount mirrors. I think they look good, and on the few buses that I've driven that have them, the high top mounted mirrors give you better visibility.
Yes the high mount curved mirrors (we call them gull wing mirrors) do give much better visibility, particularly the nearside (kerbside), from the driving position the mirror is visible through the windsreen so the driver does`nt have to look to his left to use it. It also gives a clear view of the full length of the side of the vehicle. As they are also longer top to bottom, the driver needs to consider this when driving narrow streets, where there is a risk of striking pedestrians, particulary on Low floor easy access city busses, I have walked into the mirror on a few occasions at road level, and Im not a tall person, but out on the streets the pedestrians are on a pavement (sidewalk) which is above road level.
Hi James, great video as usual. Might I suggest that one reason for the differences between North American motorcoaches and European motorcoaches are the expected lifespans and operating environments that we operate our coaches in. As you are aware, in North America we operate on a residual value model where a coach can be expected to be in operation for possibly as long as 20 years going to a secondhand and then sometimes even a thirdhand operator before finally being scrapped. I believe in Europe the initial purchase price of the coach is lower but they aren’t expected to be in service nearly as long as we operate our coaches. If we were to update styling on the same product lifecycle as the Europeans our oldest coaches would look considerably out of date relative to the newest models in the fleet thereby impacting consumer demand at resale time and depressing the coaches value. It also would make the older coaches in the fleet less desirable to potential customers making orders harder to fill when in fact the coach is just a capable as a new one.
I actually believe this has a substantial impact - some customers don't want to much design updates. And customers probably have a greater saying in the US than in Europe where all manufacturers provide design updates whether customers ask for it or not, and stop selling older models.
On the other hand there are buses here to like Volvo 9700 that sold with limited design updates during 20 years 2000-2020. As it had a quite sleek, timeless design from start that stayed modern for long time.
Probably one of the best and most popular US bus was the MCI Model 9, originally built around 1979, lots of them still running, with the original 8V-71 Detroit Diesel two-stroke engines, known as the "318," because in theory it could produce 318 hp. at 2100 rpm. Reliability was a huge factor in older MCI design efforts. It shows!
Those were tough buses. I remember going uphill and we would shut off the air-conditioner compressor, by throwing a toggle switch on the side panel, that would kick an extra 25 hp. to the driveshaft, give the bus a little extra "go." Then when you got to the top of the grade, push in the clutch, let the engine rpm's drop to idle, re-engage the A/C compressor, clutch back out and off you go. Guys that did not drop the engine speeds and re-engaged anyway would fracture the compressor crankshaft with the sudden-impulse torque of re-engagement!
The early versions all came with a heavy clutch matched to an Eaton 4-speed; later versions with clutch had a neat Spicer 5-speed. Then MCI started offering these buses with a small Allison automatic, as drivers able to handle the non-synchromesh manual transmissions became hard to find. The manuals required "double-clutching" where the clutch was briefly engaged while in the neutral position, to help the internal gear shafts get to the proper speed. A really good driver could actually shift without even using the clutch, and do it perfectly, but those guys are long gone. Today, the manual is not even offered; I think the Eaton 7-speed "B"-model transmission was last offered by MCI in 1994. They built only two with that transmission that year. I know, because I bought one of them! [Great transmission, by the way; totally bullet-proof, indestructible unit.]
@@jvaneck8991 Meanwhile quite a no. of coaches in my country are from Scania, often using its Comfort Shift (electro-pneumactic?) transmission. The driver can pre-select the next gear he/she wants to shift to by shifting the gearstick past the neutral position & halfway to the next gear's position, then when ready to shift, press the clutch & complete shifting the gearstick to the next gear's position (ruclips.net/video/iV9HDLJhy9o/видео.html). This lets the stick's throw be shorter, slightly smoothening shifts compared to a conventional mechanical transmission, where the throw is quite long as the stick is floor-mounted, but I guess it isn't that popular as the benefits are more marginal. Seen some Japanese coaches e.g. Hino S'elega/Isuzu Gala use a similar design too though, with the gearstick being small enough to be mounted on the dashboard instead of on the floor
Having the middle ramp makes sense as it is near the wheelchair area thing and means they don’t need to navigate the narrow part of the the part of the passenger area
Everytime you upload, I get excited
What a great comparison, glad you found my comment useful! I definitely think it’s the curves and windscreen that make the biggest difference in looks.
The area I work is mostly rural so our service buses only have one door at the front, which is where the wheelchair ramp is also located. We definitely make good use of the increased overhangs over paths ect.
The midship door, we call it a continental door here as we drive in the left in the Uk whereas the rest of Europe drives on the right, so when touring that door is used to safely get passengers on/off the coach and the toilet doesn’t take up that much extra space beside the staircase.
We typically see coaches around 40ft hold around 50 passengers and 50ft hold around 60, these are triaxles (tag axle) with rear steering to help with the tight roads.
Hey Jamie. I was hoping to read your comment on this video. Thank you for writing. I hope you enjoyed this one.
@@MotorcoachWorld US guys mocks everyone especially developing countries. But when Beautiful European countries mocks US, in High-speed train, Beautiful cars and Bus sector, you all act like super rude guys.
8:16 Not Always. In my city we have a lift instead of a ramp for wheelchairs and that lift is at the first door.
9:02 Three and four doors are also a newer developement in many european cities. Its true that you loose some seats but on paper a fourth door saves so much time, that you can theoretically save a bus on some routes and you reduce delays. And delays are even more annoying than loosing some seats.
Hi Motorcoach World/James, just discovered your channel by the youtube recommendations algorithm and am a new subscriber.
As someone fascinated by automotive history and design, I loved your coverage on differences between NA and EU buses, and buses of the former soviet union. Would love to throw out a suggestion for a future video on buses of Hong Kong.
When I first visited the city it was such a culture shock, their primary transit buses are all double decker buses from EU & English manufacturers since they were a former colony of Britain, but yet all their "Mini Buses" are all JDM models (i.e. Toyota Coaster & Mitsubishi Fuso Rosa).
Anyways, keep up the great work!
Hey Pwnda. Thanks for the Sub, I really want to do one on Hong Kong. However I don't have any info or B rolll footage of anything there. I need to gather up my resources before I attempt that topic. It is on my list though. Thanks for the suggestion.
Minibuses can be quite useful in HK for public transit as their smaller narrower roads can be about just as densely populated as the main roads. The closest to minibuses that European manufacturers make I guess are long-wheelbase passenger vans e.g. 7.3m long Mercedes Sprinter, but with the engine at the front instead of below the floor in the middle they're less space efficient (though I've seen one as well as a UK Optare Solo on trial too). Japanese manufacturers make vans too but not as long as European ones e.g. the longest Toyota HiAce I've seen has 6 rows of seating (including the driver's row), 2 less than the longest Sprinter. In my country (Singapore) public buses are mostly European while other buses (private coaches & minibuses) are also mostly Japanese (though increasingly Chinese too), probably as Japanese ones might be seen as more economical. Minibuses are typically used by private shuttle bus operator only though instead of public transit here, as our roads are wider
I have always thought that buses and motorcoaches in Europe were ugly compared to ours in North America. It is funny to know they feel otherwise but at the end of the day, we are all bus nuts. Also James, I live in the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex and our transit buses in DFW Airport (ElDorado National) have the wheelchair ramp at the rear door as well as the older Gilligs in Denton, TX. All other and newer Gilligs and New Flyer Xcelsior transit buses here have the wheelchair in the front door as well as frameless windows. Also, our articulated 60ft buses in Fort Worth, TX (New Flyer Xcelsior) only have two service doors.
I just tried to find a clue on maybe very different regulations and one thing that stood out is that most UN members signed an agreement about motor vehicle regulations standards but neither Canada nor the US are part of this system.
It was first introduced in 1958 seems to be known as "World Forum for Harmonization of Vihicle Regulations" (title of the Wikipedia article)
This article also states that the regulations in North America are mostly incompatible. This could be an important point why most of the world seem to have similar designs, but North America stand out.
(interesting sidenote in the article is about headlight regulations in the US between 1940 and 1983 witch forced car manufacturers to more or less one allowed headlight design
Not too long ago, I watched a video about the new Mercedes-Benz Tourrider coach for the USA that discusses these differences from a European point of view. I found it very interesting, but it is in german only: ruclips.net/video/Bs9ChJoS-pI/видео.html It doesn’t really mention anything that wasn’t said in this video, though.
Some differences it mentions are different lighting regulations, larger bumpers for the US, the bus is wider, the frame has better rust protection and so on. Of course, it notably gets the split windscreen, which is apparently a customer requirement. And then there’s things like no middle door and the toilet in the rear. It definitely looks very boxy, but the european version (the Mercedes-Benz Tourismo) is also among the more boxy coaches on the european market, so the differences aren’t that big. I guess the windshield isn’t quite as curved, maybe.
I've been wondering why Mercedes-Benz doesn't sell their buses in North America.
@@flh5959 They did, with Setra, which is their premium brand in the coach market (yes, Mercedes Benz is the value brand in that specific segment. I think that’s rather funny). Apparently they weren’t happy with the results, so now they’re starting over with the Mercedes brand name.
@@dda40x I remember Setra being in the US since the 80s, which is probably before MB bought them? So MB was just taking over ongoing business. At least that's my impression. Now it would be interesting if MB is giving their own shot using their own brand name like you are saying.
@@flh5959 MB bought Setra in 1995. So they continued their pre-existing presence for another 25 years or so, and have now decided to change, apparently. At least that's what it sounded like in the video. Maybe they'll sell both brands in the US in the future, like they do in Europe? I don't know.
Frankly speaking, i knew very little about a busses but can i just say: love the way you handled all the questions and comments - polite but to the point. Also, ST scenes - nicely done :)
Honestly, I think the European buses look ugly, I'm not saying that because of this video. I've literally always thought most vehicles in foreign countries just look ugly.
Re: styling differences, you kinda hit the nail on the head at 16:43 - domestic product regulations related to Buy America in the US also may play a role in forcing some of these European vendors to source some percent of product to be assembled in the US. This rule really only comes into effect if the product is going to be purchased using at least $100k of federal funding, which would be the case for most US transit agencies that purchase vehicles with some portion of federal funding. This becomes the common denominator for most vendors, even coach buses since many larger and mid-size agencies in the US operate long distance commuter services with dedicated motorcoach fleets.
There has been A LOT of lost capacity in many sectors of transit vehicle production over the last few decades, plenty of mergers and acquisitions, and even more offshoring of a lot of the production of components and systems. Not motorcoach, but New Flyer certainly has been providing top-notch vehicle aesthetics since the late-2000s/early-2010s with the Excelsior series. I'd say these are at the same level of aesthetic appeal as many of the European transit buses that I envy myself as a transit planner. These have a serious appeal for riders, making service appear modern, especially to laypeople who are unfamiliar with buses. While exterior aesthetics don't dictate interior fittings and amenities, multiple doors on transit buses and shorter wheelbases really would help improve passenger flow and navigability on city streets. Even most newer cities in America have some portion of city streets where tighter turning radius would improve driver comfort and a growing number of these cities are investing in road diets to improve the safety of people NOT in vehicles, which makes roads more on par with the appropriately human-sized streets of Europe.
I will say one exception to the boxy designs, while not a coach bus manufacturer, is Proterra. They build their bus shells in Rhode Island, so perhaps the vehicle styling is definitely along the lines of what you wrap up with - that US vehicle designers tend to be more cut from the cloth of those folks who design pick-up trucks, preferring boxier, more brutish designs than angular, sleek, modern designs. Proterra definitely leans more toward sleek and in the same class of designers trying to modernize the whole look of transit vehicles, like the prototype bus from Arrival (not yet in production) and Alstom (not available in the US yet). I personally don't like how Proterra has gone the complete opposite direction with a very uncomfortably totally curvaceous design and the build quality issues point to some other challenges about US production. However, ADL's acquisition by New Flyer may lead to better availability of Euro-styled transit and coach bus designs in North America, with NFI's extensive Buy America-compliant supply chain and ADL's existing expertise having dabbled in collaborations with NFI in the past.
As a planner, the thing that bothers me the most about the drive for more curved vehicle profiles is the effect it has on the ability to place the head sign right up against the front glass. These days, you'll often get a lot of glare from even more angles and the sign has to be set so far back that you have to step back several meters from the bus just to see the route number from some angles at the curb. Some European operators have been offering better head sign designs, like those on the last Orions before they shut down in the early 2010s. Regardless, New Flyer's Excelsior front styling seems to be the exception in North America of providing sexy curb appeal while still building solid, reliable, and practical designs.
Think the Duple Metsec 3500/5000 (for single & double-decker buses respectively) & Walter Alexander Strider bodywork solve the glare issue by angling the head/destination sign downwards, in the opposite direction of the windscreen below
@@lzh4950 ah! I see. In this case, they actually add another element to the issue - they add blackout tape/paint on the coverglass around the head sign to hide mechanicals and whatnot. This means if the head sign isn't RIGHT UP AGAINST the glass and the remaining cutout is too small, parts of the headsign info may be cut off/blocked by the blackout material if you're viewing the bus from any other angle other than head-on, which can be a huge issue if you're trying to read route info from curbside as a passenger.
You guys should check out the brazilian coaches, in my opinion they look even better.
Models like the Marcopolo Paradiso G8 1800 DD and Paradiso G8 1350 are awesome and futuristic.
Side note: one thing that aways bothered me in the american coaches was the side mirros. They're positioned very low and I aways have to dodge to avoid being hit in the head.
Great video, interesting topic.
Perfect video to watch at 1:00 am in SA , at least we have electricity to enjoy with this video
Buses in the US are built more to be rugged and denpendable, and comfortable. I think we see them more as a tool then a work of art. Buses here in the US doalot of miles, as this is a vast country.
In all honesty, I find Eoropesn buses to be overengineered and needlessly complicated. A bus in the US is designed to make money. That means it is dependable, rugged and comfortable.
That is a big part of it. Buses in North America do way more miles at higher speeds on much rougher roads. The longer wheelbase on the North American buses provides a much better ride and reduces porpoising. The split windshield is to reduce replacement costs. As any who drives any amount of hyway miles knows you only get a few years out of the windshield before it needs to be replaced due to rock chips/cracks. If you just dropped EU spec buses here in NA they would just not last. We have seen this same issue with Rail Equipment and Heavy Trucks. Busses here are designed to be cheaper to service and repair and to operate in much more demanding and tougher conditions both in terms of climate and road surfaces long distance high-speed gravel road surface operation is not unheard of it is not as common as it used to be but it is there... Most of these operating conditions would cause EU spec busses to fall apart in fairly short order. So NA busses look more rugged simply cause they are.
@Sam They are much better with the cold extremes than they used to be. Al least with soft materials. Some of the steels they do not quite have a handle on for artic temps with North American conditions.. == Autos are different as they are tested for these conditions. But heavier road and rail vehicles are not tested to the same level of durability.
@Sam That seems odd. Scandanavian Countries can get very cold in the winter, and Spain and Portugal are going to be hot climates in the summer. They might not have 48c highs but it's the same sun beating down there as in North America.
It's a matter of taste. Neoplan I think, made a coach that was very bulbus at the front. The windshield was split horizontal, and the upper part was slanting above the first row.
Proterra buses in the US seeks single piece windshields but those are city transit buses. Though in most cases they’re usually used in shuttle service for airports and campuses.
I like the 'buses of the world' kind of thing.
I'm about to hop on a Prevost tour bus, which might make another interesting topic. Coaches are a way of life for musicians and other touring acts. There's climbing into a top bunk (usually 12 bunks total in 'bunk alley'), 120V generator and 'shore power' hookup to the grid, velcro on the refrigerator door, the kneeling and leveling features, and the insanity of pulling and backing a trailer. Do passenger buses ever pull luggage trailers?
Looking forward to more from the Motorcoach World!
I'm currently in Siegen, Germany and some public transport buses here are pulling a trailer that carries passengers like a mini road train of buses. So yes, some passenger buses do pull trailers and not just luggage ones!
My favourite design is the Silver Eagle. looks American even though they're from Europe. Nearly bought an MCI 7 for a motorhome conversion once but ended up with a Mercedes Benz. American coaches look great as do European ones.
Only the very early Golden and Silver Eagles were made in Europe however they all were North American designed by Continental (Trailways).
What bus model did you get? I just bought a Setra S417 for a conversion.
James: A thought about the huge one-piece windshields that are typical on the Euro coaches vs. the two and sometimes four-piece windshields typically seen in the US. I suspect that the cost of windshield replacement is a factor, and that the frequency of stone chip damage on US coaches is higher. European countries are sticklers for safety practices, such as covering loads on dump trucks carefully. Replacing a big single piece of compound curved glass must be more expensive. Check with Peoria Charter's maintenance department and ask if they agree.
Here in my country that last time we used 2-piece windscreens/shields was probably way back in the early-90s with the Mercedes O405 Mk1 chassis, some paired w Duple Metsec & others with Walter Alexander PS bodywork (both companies have since merged with others to form Alexander Dennis, the main double-decker bus-maker in USA & Canada). Our public bus fleet then was less standardized, also using a mix of A/C compressors (some with Denso & others with Carrier Sütrak, the latter being longer & using larger connecting ducts to the cabin's vents)
Hello hello! I recently subbed and SO glad I came across your content. I’ve been a bus enthusiast since I was a boy. I can still remember the first bus I rode in preschool: 2002 IC FE series number 2213.
Anyway, I’ve only rode a charter motorcoach bus once. My life was mostly school and transit buses. I remember how sad I was to see the county retired buses I used to ride to school on as a child.. being hauled off by a big rig in disrepair.
Love to see this community of other folks who love (and live) buses. I would LOVE if you could incorporate transit buses into your content. I really really would love to see a documentary on FLXIBLE buses. At one time there was a Metro series at every street corner and then poof all gone after the 90s.
Hey Javelin! Thanks for your post and the sub. Ive always loved the Flxible. Classic designs. Maybe Ill add that one to my to do list.
8:31 the ramp is in the middle of the bus because the space for a wheelchair is in the middle of the bus. The driver can often open the ramp automatically on newer buses.
11:48 the euro currency has cents too :)
James, you hit the bulls eye. Not just coaches and other buses, but all or almost all American made passenger vehicles are very boxy as compared to European and perhaps Asian vehicles. You are also correct when you say that being boxy makes them look muscular (or big). That is a high American preference too. European and Japanese vehicles have "curves" that - you guessed it - are considered feminine. It actually is a very relevant observation because non-American men, in my observation, generally do not worry too much about appreciating or embracing "feminine" design, etc. Sure, many consider any association with feminine qualities/traits (other than when meeting certain basic needs, ahem) an affront to their manhood, but many don't. On the other hand, American culture is the most macho culture I have ever come across. It is both very overt and covert. I can keep going on but hope this helps.
As an Aussie, I always wondered this too. The US ones look so bulky. Of the two models I mainly drive these days, my favourite is a Volgren Optimus, with a Scania K310/320 drive train.
Understood; in fact some of them were sold in Japan, which is rare as Hino, Isuzu and Mitsubishi Fusō dominate the market there.
that 102 Somerled bus was a bus I took to high school in Montreal Canada. The 09 was the # of the bus on that route...IE :9 of 26 busses...cool to see it on your channel.
The best looking US desing is PD - 4501 Scenicruiser 😃
Also, when you mentioned Setra S515 for the first time, there is a picture od S417 shown. Second time mentioned was correct picture 😉
Here, in Europe, one of the best desing had Ernst Auwarter, with his EA O303, O404 and O505 (all based on corresponding Mercedes Benz models, O303, O404, O505), Neoplan Cityliner N116/1116 and N516 (Temsa Diamond was drawn by the same desinger as N116, N1116 and N516 line). Intersting fact, owner and founder of Neoplan, Gottlob Auwarter was brother of Ernst Auwareter. There are also some interesting "new" desingnes, like Noge, Sunsundegui, but they buy chassis form other manufacturers and just do the body.
Also, mentioning the "past" manufacturers, one of the most interesting (and ending in tipical Croation fashion from the 90-is) is Eurobus (Volvo) Av 120 (coach), 120 L (Intercity) and 120 DD (duobledecker). Exelent design, excelent and durable Volvo chassis and powerplant, great comfort....
Like that old saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Not everyone is going to like the same thing no matter what that may be. Now, with that being said i personally like both north American and European coaches. I think that some north American coaches do look better than others but i also think that some European coaches definitely look better than others. Personally i think if they all looked the same no matter where you went it would be really boring. But because coaches differ in looks in different parts of the world you have more of a variety to choose from. Personally i've never really been much of a transit bus person no matter what part of the world they come from.
It will be nice to make a similar video comparing to latin-american busses, usually in countries like Mexico we have many different buses, mostly you will see the Irizar brand with the model i8 and i6s, also we got volvo with the 9700, 9800 and 9800DD, also some double deckers like the buses made from "Ayats" like the Eclipse and the Bravo. There are also buses from south american brands like marcopolo with the "G7" "G8" and the MP180 MX (a bus specially made for Mexico), also the brand "Busscar" made some busses like the Busstar DD. There are also some brands that sell in south america like "Comil" and "Modasa". Also a "new" bus for us is the "Tourismo" which is a Mercedes-Benz. And an all of them you can find very different equipment from a bus with many seats and few monitors to buses that look like a buisness class plane (since most people don't want or can't afford a plane the busses has become the main transportarion for most of the people in this country).
Here in Singapore we've quite a variety of bodywork too - public commuter buses mostly use European designs (perhaps due to past ties with our colonial master the UK) e.g. Volvo B10M, Olympian & B9TL with Duple Metsec/Wright Eclipse Gemini 2/Walter Alexander Royale/PS/Strider bodywork, though we've also Egypt's MCV EvOrA bodies with Volvo B5LHs too. They made the older Evolution body for our MAN A22 bus as well when 1st introduced, but our operator decided on nearby Malaysia's Gemilang's bodywork instead for future orders (though the exterior design may be licensed from the chassis builders e.g MAN, Scania instead, who sell integral bodywork for continental European operators/customers too). We've the Mercedes Citaro too which comes only with integral bodywork, with more comfortable independent suspension, but probably less customisability too e.g. the "bus stopping" indicator light on the driver's dashboard is a symbol with 'H' (short for 'stop' in German ( _halt_ )).
However coaches (mainly by private operators) traditionally used Japanese chassis e.g. Nissan Diesel, Isuzu LT1/434P, occasionally with some Scanias also, with locally-designed bodywork instead e.g. Liannex, PSV Soo Chow, SC Auto's SC Evolution/Chivalrous, which tend to look rounder. That was even more so when the bodywork was adopted for some university/shopping mall shuttle buses (paired with Scania K230UB Euro 5 low-entry chassis), which are usually less tall than coaches as they don't need underfloor luggage compartments. The end result is that the windows @ the bus' front 1/2 had to be made taller, & the bodywork looks unaturally tall (www.sgbuses.com/picture.php?/23764-pa9786l_shuttlea2/category/sg-nus-k230ub), plus acceleration up some slopes is more sluggish & greater inertia is felt when braking (compared with our public buses with the same chassis but Gemilang commuter bus bodywork). Comically the shuttle buses still retain attendant call buttons above each seat & individual reading lights, though the former has been deactivated & the latter has been rewired to the same switch as the headlights. More recently more Chinese buses have been bought instead, which typically use intergral bodywork instead that's also abit more curvacious than European but less so than American designs e.g. Yutong (宇通), Zhong Tong (think its 中通 or 众同, but some bus fans noted its a homonym for 'president' 总/總统), Golden Dragon, King Long (the last 2 actually have the same name in Chinese I think 金龙/龍). European coach chassis, new bodywork have gained popularity too e.g. Volvo B7/8R (difference is in Euro V/VI rating), indingenous LexBuild & Malaysia's TruckQuip. The earlier-mentioned SC Auto is building its own chassis now too to be sold as the SC Neustar, which is paried with a VDL engine & I heard has been sent for tests in Europe too
We also have a few buses with Australian Volgren bodywork, which I heard is slightly narrower due to domestic regulations. The CR222 (for the Volvo B10BLE & B10TL/Super Olympian) is more curvacious with circular headlights but both the older CR221 (used with a minority of Mercedes O405Gs here) & newer CR228 (for the Volvo B5RLEH that was briefly brought here frm Australia for a trial in 2014-5) are more oblong, though they still look less 'fat' than American designs. Heard they've since introduced a newer bodywork called the Optimus that looks sleeker with strip LED head & tail lights, but so far only seen them within Australia, & sadly no rear window
Hi Jim, great content, can you also start doing more unboxing items, ect?
Interesting perspective. I grew up in both the UK and US. In the late 90s I really liked the new VanHools for example. When I moved to the US, I did think most coaches were pretty... basic. Although I did think the MCI J series was good looking and fairly modern at the time.
One thing I did notice (that hasn't been mentioned) was that almost all European coaches back then had pretty large rear windows, but US coaches never have them.
Regarding city buses (and speaking as a transport planner here), the number of doors depends entirely on operator requirements, and you mentioned the reasons why in the video. More doors vastly reduces exit/loading times at busy city centre stops (sometimes by over a minute) which makes a big difference on a tight schedule. But yes, you lose seats in the process. In the UK, 2 doors is actually the most common option, but I've seen (at least in the 2000s) some buses only having one door. 3 or 4 doors seems more common in places like Germany. But again, intra-city "bus coaches" (not sure the precise term) aimed at commuters only have one or two doors in order to maximise seating due to having longer journeys with fewer stops.
Regarding wheelchair access, I believe that the middle door is used more because it's closer to the wheelchair space and means not navigating down the narrower corridor past the driver, but it would be interesting to hear from some wheelchair users for their view on this...
Interesting subject today James. I think that the new face lift of the MCI J4500 (and don’t quote me on it) was designed by Daimler Design when MCI had an affiliation with Daimler. Prevost as you know is owned by Volvo, and they look quite a bit different than the Volvo 9700 which has Euro looks, and built in I believe Mexico. The mirror style and placements on European coaches always remind me of a bug with it’s antennas. I think they are mounted forwards and up like that to have a narrower profile for the tighter confines they operate in. Just my two cents. Thanks. Rick
MCI needed capital surplus not car designers -though certain reputable designers were and are consulted on bus, trucks and motorcycle designs. Daimler Design did not design the 102-EL3 Renaissance or E400 -from which the J4500 was cast an identical replica for all practical intent and purposes. MCI as an independent subsidiary designed the E4500. However they did have use of DD’s state of the art CAD WAN in designing the E4500.
@@marvinjgerald6007 I was talking about the J4500 current front look not the whole design. That was what I was told from Sales and Service at the time. Yes MCI has had capital problems through the years. Creation of MCII with Dina for capital to design/build the Renaissance in mid to late 90’s, and other parts of their history. Rick
The high mirrors make them look like a bug to me ugly
The only car manufacturer's design arm that helped MCI design a bus was BMW for MCI's new D-Series, including their MCI D45 CRT LE.
James I may be the only one but I think the Nordic country busses with mid engine and a freezer section in the buss is a neat variation. Never noticed it anywhere but Nordic countries, they hauled groceries right on the bus. I am not sure if they are still common, maybe someone will see the comment and update me if they are no longer used.
Oooo I never heard of those. I will have to check them out. Thanks for the suggestion.
@@MotorcoachWorld The only place I have found that talks about them is the Volvo 9700 page in the Volvo 9700 as brucks section. I am sure the ones I saw where older than the 9700.
Seen some newer double-decker airport coaches in HK (ADL Enviro500 by _Long Win_ Bus (former brander AirBus)) with a mini-freezer immediately above the front left wheel arch too. To make the bus feel more coach-like (the Enviro500 starts out as more of a commuter bus instead) they even removed all vertical grab poles on the upper deck (you use the grab handles beside the seats' headrests instead for safety, while the "bus stopping" button is moved to the ceiling & window frames instead)
I think, it's really the borderless windows and the smooth bumpers, that make the difference. It's not that one is ugly, it's just that we had this here in the past and it just looks so much like the 90s. Which implies visually, that the systems are underfunded and running on very old stock, even if the busses are actually new. Which is, what makes us feel they're ugly.
One thing that stood out to me is that, even though in America there are models with frameless windows, the windshields are still framed. It is also the case here in Brazil: most coaches are exactly like that, and most urban models still use frames all around.
Honestly I also find American buses good looking, but as you said it’s probably because it’s familiar to me growing up here. European buses are jarring with the amount of curves some of them have
European busses are more beautiful because of the amount of curves they have.
European coaches are designed to reduce the drag coefficient all thanks to European laws that require better fuel efficiency. I get up in Canada with a MCI Courier 96, and now live in the UK. The MCI coaches get away with their looks mainly due to the fact they don't need to be as fuel efficient but more powerful, all thanks to the price of Diesel. One other thing you will almost never see a double decked coach in North America, although BC transit (Canada) has a fleet of double deck tag axel comuter buses. Love the content keep it up.
There are many more examples of double decker buses in Canada:
The majority of GO Transit's bus fleet (regional buses in Ontario) consists of double decker Alexander-Dennis Enviro 500 buses.
OC Transpo (Ottawa) also uses some AD E500s on their outer suburban commuter services.
Megabus Canada (private intercity operator) predominantly uses double decker Van Hool TD925 coaches.
Orléans Express (private intercity operator) also uses some VH TD925s.
This is my new favorite yt channel
Thanks for the kind words.
Back in the 70 and 80’s, NA Transit agencies did gave Euro buses a try, like the Ikarus 280 and MAN SG220. The visual differences are minor other than regulatory lamps and thicker bumpers, some did joint ventures too like NABI with Ikarus
What joint venture did NABI do with Ikarus prior to 1993? For that matter, what joint venture did NABI do with Ikarus post-1993?
@@sonicboy678 NABI was practically ikarus in the USA till the 2000s with them making "Americanised" ikaruses (mainly 400 series).
I find the coaches and buses in North America fascinating because they are so.... squared and boxy compare here to the Philippines where the buses and coaches are rounded very rarely can you see boxy buses but operators are getting more and more of those because they obviously look more modern compared to the other models, and fun fact most buses and coaches here in the Philippines have a manual transmission not only because they are cheaper to buy but they are so damn reliable, I hope you can make a video about Asian buses or heck maybe about buses operated here thank you
also i have never seen a jeepney with an automatic transmission.
@@makeitpay8241 the reason behind that is that jeepney manufacturers sourced their engines from surplus engine sellers (used engines) and the only transmission compatible to those engines are manual transmission very rarely can you see a brand new engine in a jeepney (if the person that ordered the vehicle provide a new engine that the manufacturer can use, usually they still use a manual transmission by the request of the person that ordered the vehicle), plus the manual transmission is the norm for public utility vehicles (PUV) here in the Philippines, drivers doesn't complain about transmissions because first of they can drive a stick shift already so there's no problem there and second because there's no other options anyways. (hope my explanation helps)
I hadn't noticed these comments on the 'ugly' looks of NA buses when they were originally posted, but I've always liked the look of just about every NA motor coach I've ever seen. City buses can be pretty ugly (nothing will ever come close to the New Looks) but highway coaches here look good. Then again, for reference, I think the MC-7, MC-8 and MC-9 were a good looking buses, and they are as close to Corn Flakes boxes on wheels as you can get. So maybe people should ignore me on this topic. 😀
i once took a ride in a 'nova bus' - it was like a parody of public transport, everything was shacking and vibrating (tethers), the seats were horrible and it felt like the concept of 'suspension' is still unknown at the other side of the atlantic...
7:58 I think if we go back 20 years, when high floor transit buses were common if not the norm, many if not most of them had wheelchair ramps/lifts at the back door. For example, the two most common transit bus models in my area back in the day: the GM RTS and the Orion V were both configured that way.
Also I think the MCI and Prevost motor coaches used by my local transit agency, the MTA, for express/commuter services all have a second amidship door that's used for wheelchair access only.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTA_Regional_Bus_Operations_bus_fleet#Express_bus_fleet
As with the way motorcoaches in North America look in comparison to their international counterparts, I think this isn't simply a matter of aesthetics. Sure things such as ease of repair, maintenance, and the legal side of things will inevitably influence how the buses look. But I've always been curious about why the front ends of buses aren't more streamlined and aerodynamic. I suspect having the upper half if not third of a bus' windshield curved or slanted backward would lead to improvement in the bus' fuel economy.
The RTS bus never made it in Canada. The design was too futuristic for operators here, so we ended up getting the Classic bus, an updated version of the old New Look. After Nova Bus discontinued the Classic, the RTS was offered briefly, and was purchased by a couple of operators in eastern Canada. Another poorly received futuristic design here was NFI's Invero "beluga" bus, a low floor model offered in the 2000s. In 2002 Winnipeg received 10 Inveros for evaluation, without AC, as was common for the city at the time. They were sweltering in the summer. Eventually, the city was forced to change their policy on bus AC, and the first buses equipped were NFI Excelsiors in 2010. People complain they're too cold in the summer, and open windows, negating the AC.
Lincoln in the 60s and early 70s had a motto, of never making changes for the sake of changes. Europe and Europeans have adopted this snobbish attitude, especially towards the US (hastag not all, and speaking as a former European myself). New doesnt always mean better, and here, we have different sensibilities.
When it comes to cars and trucks and buses, we have a HUGE continent, not tiny nations with tiny roads. I like some European buses, but few can compare to the ruggedness of an old MC9, and from the functionality comes its beauty. Sure, I recall the old Bova Futuras (Bova and DAF kind of blended into VDL now) and they were unique...but I personally would rather take a box on wheels than a suppository or marital aide....
I think you've just proved my point about the "cornflake packet" styling. Seriously, the longer front and rear overhang in Europe is a product of the constructions & use regulations -for example, in the UK buses have to have a turning circle of 75 ft maximum. Even most American stretched limos can't do that. The midships door on coaches is interesting. Many UK and European coaches have these, usually on the offside. This is so that a UK coach in Europe, or a European coach visiting the UK, can unload at the kerbside without passengers having to disembark into traffic. There has been something of a reaction against bonded glazing on city buses, as it's much more time-consuming to replace breakages than gasket-glazing, but it does have benefits where buses are mechanically washed as it presents a flat surface to the brushes.
LOL I was hoping to see you comment! Thanks for your posts! I hope you enjoyed the video David!
I've been driving buses since the year I got my cdl, in 1991. I took my road test on a 1976 mci mc-8 (very, very, old coach with crappy turning radius). Out of 24 of those years driving city-transit buses, now working part-time for a tour company utilizing Volvo 9700's, Prevost and MCI's. I gotta admit, I found my most favorite motorcoach to drive is still the MCI's-sooooooo nice and comfortable, solid feel if driving. I'm glad to work once again driving for a company equipped with motorcoaches-sooooo much more relaxing than been driving Gillig transit buses not to mention the absolute "mind boggle" a city transit driver must endure on a daily basis-
You said something very important about the width. European busses are always 2.55 m wide, which is the legal limit here. If the US allows for more, than they already have a good reason to build a whole different structure.
For the rounded curves: fuel efficiency is much more important in Europe, because gas isn't dirt cheap here, so there is a lot effort into aerodynamics. This may also explain, why all busses here have single front windows since the 1980s and also have a sideline that's as flat as possible.
What surprises me however is the rear door. If I am not completely wrong, having a second door is a legal requirement in Europe (for faster evacuation).
Lmao you think those are ugly
You might want to look at city buses in mumbai, Kolkata etc and locally built non ac coaches
Even though the newer buses look nice
I think the Prevost H3-45 and the Mci js are beautiful coaches
The older MCIs are nice: MC5, MC7, MC8, MC9 and MC12. The MC6 was just goofy looking. I don't care for Prevost or Setra. They are too boxy, no sexiness, no charm or guts.
I like the Design of the MCI J4500 before the facelift
The advantage of having the wheelchair ramp in the middle or back is that there is the most space. In the front you have limited space through the driver compartment and the boxes for the front wheels. Many European (city) buses have a simple free space area at the middle and back doors so that people with wheelchair have easy access and a parking place for their chair, while the aisle is often too narrow for a wheelchair.
I never thought of the different designs in ugly or not just different.
HK's buses also place the wheelchair ramp at the entrance, with the wheelchair space immediately behind the front axle. Singapore meanwhile puts the ramp at the exit for the same reason in Europe, but to prevent fare evasion bus drivers usually won't let wheelchair-bound & other passengers board @ the same time, since to raise reliability & lower costs, the driver has to walk to the exit to manually unfold the ramp (& he/she has to stop the bus more carefully at the bus stop so it isn't too far from the curb, otherwise the curb to bus gap may be too wide for the ramp to bridge. The exit & ramp has to be positioned exactly between the stop's bollards too (there to protect people at the stop should a vehicle crash in), leaving the entrance unsupervised. That lengthens dwell times, especially once where a wheelchair-bound passenger had to make a 5-point turn before being able to alight
So an interesting story about the way buses look. When I first started driving for Starline in early 2017, our yard in Pullman had three big 45' coaches, two 1998 built MCI E's and a 2006 built MCI D4500. The D4500 had an ADA lift, the E's did not. The E's went out on most trips with the D as the backup and ADA bus. There was one customer that had one E and the D on a two bus trip, and the next time they booked a trip they requested that we send the "newer" bus. So, we sent the D4500! Well, turns out they wanted the E!
Its interesting how some long lived designs start to look old and outdated. Even with D4500's still being made, they look like they are out of the 1980's especially the interior. Where as the much older E coaches we had at the time looked newer, just from the design. I remember you had mentioned this in an older video you did about the MCI MC12. They had such a long production run that the visual design became outdated, even though it was a good bus.
By the way, one of those E's that we had, the last I drove it, the odometer was over 850,000 miles!!!
American here but I've also always wondered why our busses look so outdated compared to much of the world.
That reminds me that in my youth I toured Europe with a tour company. The big difference is that the coach did not have a toilet. some thirty five years later I could not tolerate that. I just imagine a bus full of older folks having to stop at every tree on the road. I dread my next visit to Central America where although some coaches and buses have washrooms, they often have a padlock on the door. I never found out if there is a service charge for the key as I always managed to tolerate the discomfort, except one time on a repurposed school bus milk run when I just followed the other guys to the trees.
As someone from the UK I always love the look on the older American buses like the older newflyer and the nova RTS, older MCIs.
YES, the RTS is awesome
Who defines ugly? The $2-3 million conversions use Prevosts and few MCI. NEVER SEEN an Euro bus. Honestly, those hideous antler mirrors on Euro busses have got to go. THATS UGLY. There is something clean, nice, simple and elegant about the MCI that is comforting. and honestly, the MCI is a tad more flowing and lovelier than the Prevosts. both are gorgeous busses. And they are beautiful.
Just took a ride from Champaign to O'hare on Monday with you guys. Was hoping I'd see you, but the driver I had was really great nonetheless. Thanks for the videos. Always interesting, no matter what the subject.
Hey I hope it was a smooth trip. I dont get to drive much anymore. Im mostly in the office. Thanks for your business and your comment on my video. Safe travels!
@@MotorcoachWorld I slept the whole way. So I would say it was smooth. Same can't be said about the flight home. 2 cancelled flights and bag didn't get home til the day after I did. Anyways, wherever your driving career takes you, whether it's behind the wheel or desk, I wish you the best.
Very interesting video as always. At 10:08, not only you picked a Montréal city bus (I’m a born and raise Montrealer), but you picked an image of the 102 Somerled, the street I live on for 21 years (corner of Hingston) and the bus line that pass in front of my door every day!
I’e worked for NovaBus in St-Eustache, north of Montréal, a few years in the mid 90s when the city of Montréal, along with many other Québec municipalities, bought the new LFS (Low Floor Series) buses. It was then a privately owned Quebec company. It’s now part of Volvo. Before that, it was a GM transit bus assembly plant.
The LFS is a European design. "Nova Bus signed a technology transfer agreement to adapt the Dutch low-floor Den Oudsten Alliance [Netherland] bus. A demonstration Den Oudsten B90 Alliance City bus and engineering staff were sent from the Netherlands" (Wikipedia).
I had so much fun working there. I wrote training programs and training material (assembly procedures essentially) for the bus assembly line workers.
VanHool also has Transit buses in the US such as the ag300 and the a300L (both of which, The University of MN near me has. They actually have some older and newer 2021 models too). These also feature one-piece windshields but aren't as common as Nova's as they are mostly imported from Belgium (at least, until the Tennessee factory opens). I'd recommend looking up "U of M VanHool bus" or "AC Transit VanHool bus" (since they also have some).
Another thing about american buses are things like the "Black lining" around the front windows in the form of 'rubber or metal' these make it look less smooth and modern. The black strips along the top of windows just stick out like a sore thumb.
Inside buses, In the US whether framed of not, window frames will stick out where in Europe and Asia the Window frames are usually covered on the inside.
At the end of the day a bus needs to work. Though I don't know how YT suggested me this video, but I liked it very much. Keep up the good work!
Off topic, but I just wanted to say Hi. I drive for a charter company in Central Texas. Our company is almost exclusively MCI and VanHool with a few oddballs mixed in. Personally, I find the VanHools much less attractive (it's a box on wheels with no curves at all.) The interiors of our VHs have the extra large TV monitors, so they have very little overhead storage. The VH restroom design is, to put it delicately, not really designed for typical human waste. The MCIs are just so much more attractive, with a bit of curve to the front, and more comfort for the passengers.
Over the Christmas holidays, my wife and I drove to Michigan from Texas. While passing through Illinois, we passed a Peoria Charters coach. It was like a celebrity sighting!
LOL Thanks David!
I doubt you’ll see a Setra 500-series “motorcoach version” in North America now that the Mercedes-Benz Tourrider has been introduced which bids bye bye to Setra in US.
There's the Van Hool ExquiCity electric busses with Alstom ground recharge pads that Paris is getting for several of its proper busway BRT lines.
It looks fantastic and like a tram.