Ashari Shaykh Haroun Kanj Aqeedah Discussion With Br. Abdul Rahman
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2023
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In this video, Ashari shaykh @HarounKanj discusses with Br. Abdul Rahman regarding Imam al-Tabari's aqeedah and Ibn Taymiyyah's aqeedah.
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Excellent Manners by Abdul Rahman. May Allah aza Wajjal guide us all to the Truth Ameen.
Brother Jake, may Allah bless and protect you, and increase you in knowledge, and may Allah bring benefit to Islam and the Muslims through you. I must admit that while I was aware of your excellent reputation, I had never taken the time to listen to your videos, lectures, and debates.
I’m now starting to do that, and I want to tell you how happy and pleased I am that you are a staunch defender and explainer of the Athari ‘Aqeedah, as confirmed in the Noble Qur’an and authentic Sunnah of Rasool Allah Muhammad ﷺ, and as understood, preserved, and propagated by the Pious and Righteous Salaf of the Ummah.
Barak Allah feek, Brother!
JazakAllah'u khairan brothers
They started panicking when he caught them and started translating the work of ibn taymiyyah
Truthfully they tried to keep it respectful, but the simple answer they gave was that ibn taymiyya is not hujja. He can make mistakes as can all scholars and just because he held an opinion, it doesn't mean the entire Muslim Ummah has to follow this opinion.
@@junaidijaz2067Ibn Taymiya lived at a time when Ahlul Bid'ah were rampant (still are) so his refutations naturally dealt with a lot of misguidance.
Ibn Taymiya's aqeedah is in line with the Salaf, that's why his works are key for everyone after him.
@@spawnnpwn4166 it still doesn't mean he (hafizaallah) is Hujja. Very respectable scholar and a treasure for the Ummah but his word isn't Final.
@@junaidijaz2067that’s true but applies to everyone except our prophet peace be upon him so does that mean we shouldn’t refer to scholars who unlearned from the people who learned from him?
*_Masha'Allah, AbdulRahman_*
President has a 7 year old brain. He has the silliness of a todler
As for minhaaji, he just tried to save their backs.
The saddest part is that they still dont understand what abdulrahman came up to say in the first place. 😄
I agree that Al Minhaji didn't come off in the best light, truthfully how I understand it is that the majority of the Ummah don't consider Sh Ibn Taymiyya as mujadid al Islam. In respect to him, we could disagree with his opinions. For us his statements are not Hujja like they are for the current day Salafis.
So I understand that brother Abdul Rahman tried to voice his opinion, but again he came with the narrative that because Ibn Taymiyya ra. said this... therefore this is the only correct understanding.
@@junaidijaz2067 You missed the whole purpose of Abudurrahman bringing up Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah. He demonstrated that the Aqeedah of Ibn Taymiyyah was in line with the Aqeedah of At-Tabari. He brought up a quote they agreed was correct and then revealed it was from Ibn Taymiyyah's Majmoo' al-Fataawa. They'd already agreed it's correct, yet still argued solely to defend their low opinion of Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah. Haqq is Haqq.
This is one of the most beautiful things about Islam.
Almost any person, no matter how low will stand up to almost anyone no matter how high, if they cause a contradiction that creates a problem with the faith.
You do not see this in Christianity, it more resembles a battle for power than one of the faith.
Who is the low and high person here, I’m not familiar with any of the people. And yes agree with the principle of what your saying
Mash'Allah
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته
They resort to mockery and insult when cornered. Average reaction of an ashari.
Brother Haroon should have stopped them for mocking brother Abdurrahman.
❤❤❤🌹🌹🌹🌹
Ooooo Ashari caught at the end there
The name of the app? Pls
I was lost at “Assalamulaikum brother“
Does AbdulRahman has other debates and Twitter or something?
Salam alaikum Br. Abdulrahman,
how long roughly did take you to become a professional translator?
Do I have to move from one place to another in order to scroll down on my phone?
Is that a bad/problematic analogy?
your finger does
@@mohammedhanif6780 Yes obviously I need a mechanism whether it's moving my finger or maybe something like a telepathic mechanism in the future.
God on the other hand doesn't need a mechanism to scroll down, just "Be and it's" eh? He doesn't need to move a finger to scroll down.
I have a video on my channel on Ibn Taymiyya's explanation of the hadith of nuzul. Please see it.
That’s not the debate issue because it’s not about moving something else
@@kinetickame1203 Isn't "nuzool" and whether it necessarily entails "movement" part of the debate issue?
Among the speakers who's Ashari and who's Salfist? Can someone explain
It literally says it in the title.
It seems to me the issue is what Tabari didn't say, rather than what he did say. Crux of the issue seems to be Br Haroun interpretating Tabari generally, whereas Br Abdurrahman seems to be applying Tabari's quote specifically.
I'm unable to judge which is correct, and perhaps these debates keep happening because both sides are adamant that their reading of Tabari is correct.
Tabari himself isn't writing a philosophical treatise, so it's probably not a good idea to derive principles or claim evidences from his opinions.
Would like to see more discussion between mature brothers that give consideration for the other, such as Haroun and Abdurrahman, and less emotional stuff like when Jake or Minhaji outburst (regardless of who's right).
Can you please show me where I used "emotional stuff" regarding aqeedah? I'll wait.
@@JakeBrancatella Asalamu Alaykum brother Jake👋. Pretty sure you didn't speak in this video. I'm not saying that your arguments are emotional.
But I have observed in your other intra-muslim videos that your behavior can get kinda emotional (east coast guy ;). I feel disappointed seeing a philosophically trained smart brother like you acting that way. Brother Abdurrahman's style is more engaging and seems genuine. To me, it seems you've just jumped into the thousand-year-old discussion rather than try to elevate it. I can't tell if you're arguing to argue, or attempting to make a worthwhile contribution.
Reminds me of the famous quote attributed to Abu Hanifa r.a:
“كنا نناظر وكأن على رؤوسنا الطير مخافة أن يزل صاحبنا وأنتم تناظرون وتريدون زلة صاحبكم، ومن أراد زلة صاحبه فقد أراد أن يكفر، فهو قد كفر قبل صاحبه"
Brother , when you have Imam Al-tabari literally saying about the Quran that:
“It is the speech of Allah , uncreated , in whatever way it is written, and when it is recited, and wherever it is read , being in the heavens or upon the earth where it is memorized, it is written in the preserved tablet , and it is drawn in the tablets of the young boys of Katabeeb, wether it is etched on stone , or written on paper , or memorized in the heart , or uttered with a tongue . And whoever says otherwise , or claims that there is a Quran upon the Earth or in the heavens other than the Quran that we recite with our tongues and write in our Masahif "
Until he said : ..”he is a disbeliever in Allah”
He furthermore said :
“and it is one Quran , heard from Muhammad, written in the tablet , and it is also memorized in the chests , and recited upon the tongue of old and young men.
so whoever narrates from us or relates or lies on us that we said other than this , then the curse of Allah and his anger , and the curse of the ones who curse , and the angels, and all humans together be upon him.." end quote
How can there be any discussion regarding the meaning of this?
Asharis do not believe that the Quran we read is the uncreated word of Allah , they believe the Quran we read is a metaphor, which is created , while Al-Tabari again and again emphasizes that the quran we read , recite , write , memorize is precisely the uncreated speech of Allah , directly refuting their creed
Furthermore they believe in two Qurans , the one which is a metaphor, created , and the one which is the uncreated meaning within Allah , not composed of letters / words , while Al-Tabari says :
“And whoever says otherwise , or claims that there is a Quran upon the Earth or in the heavens other than the Quran that we recite with our tongues” … until he says : “he is a disbeliever..”
He furthermore emphasizes this by saying it again :
“and it is one Quran , heard from Muhammad, written in the tablet , and it is also memorized in the chests”
To claim that Al-Tabari even remotely agrees with the Mutazilite view is the mother of absurdity, he is clearly demonstrating the Creed of the Salaf , May Allah guide these Asharis
@Abdul Samee Sorry akhi, but your comment demonstrates that you're unfamiliar with me and my content. Go an look at my videos discussions and debates with Christians, Atheists, and other kuffar that are rude. My way with them is consistent. The same holds true for deviants. If one is respectful and capable of respectful dialogue, then they will receive the same. For those that are incapable of this, they will be dealt with accordingly. Now, regardless of either situation I present arguments and evidence in both scenarios and neither of them are merely emotive. So, with all due respect your comments are entirely misplaced.
@@aladdin8407 asalamu alaykum. I'm not an Ashari and I don't know how their understanding of kalam nafsi/lafzi etc works. I haven't heard an Ashari say they believe the Quran is a metaphor either.
Also, At-Tabari ra has statements elsewhere, which if taken into consideration, do seem similar to other certain Ashari postulates concerning the Quran.
“ھُوَ الـمُتَكَلِّمُ الَّذِي لَايَجُوزُ عَلَیْهِ السُّكُوتُ” -
التبصير في معالم الدين
“القُرْآنُ الَّذِي ھُوَ كَلَامُ الـلَّهِ تَعَالَى ذِكْرُهُ لَـمْ يَزَلْ صِفَةً قَبْلَ كَوْنِ الخَلْقِ جَمِیعًا، وَلَا يَزَالُ بَعْدَ فَنَائِهِمْ”
- Same book as above
Further, At-Tabari r.a is reported to have been beaten-up by the Hanabilah because of his position concerning istawa. Which is indicative of a disagreement between his analytical framework and that of the Hanabila & groups similar to them like the ahl al hadeeth. (Which in a general sense, Salafis ascribe themselves too).
The quote you've referred to doesn't negate the idea that the Quran being recited is uncreated, nor does it negate the idea that the voice/vocalizing is created but the Quran isn't. As the hadith says
زَيِّنُوا الْقُرْآنَ بِأَصْوَاتِكُمْ
1468 سنن أبي داود كتاب الصلاة باب تفريع أبواب
And the narration attributed to Omar ibn Khattab ra
لا يغرنَّكم من قرأ القرآن، إنَّما هو كلامٌ يُتَكلَّم به، ولكن انظروا إلى من يَعملُ به
Further, from what I understand, the Ashari paradigm isn't uniform with how to go about addressing the issue. Hence, you might find some Asharis saying weird things and others making cogent arguments. Ultimately, the further one goes down the rabbit hole, the more likely they are to make blunders due to what their statements necessitate, in terms of affirmation and negation.
At a certain point, silence becomes the most rational thing.
Can Any Ashari or shia answer this question.
Does Allah see and hear for real or metaphorically ?
The translated words of Hujjat al-Islam, Imam al-Ghazali:
"We attest that He is a hearer and a see-er. He hears and sees and no audible thing, however faint, is beyond His hearing, and no visible thing, however minute, is hidden from His sight. Distance does not prevent His hearing and darkness does not obstruct His seeing. He sees without eyes and hears without ears; just as He perceives without a brain, and seizes without a hand, and creates without an instrument, since His attributes do not resemble the attributes of created things, just as His essence does not resemble the essence of created things."
Is seeing and hearin a sensory terms?
The claim to believe that, but when cornered they say: Allaah sees, means Allaah knows, and Allaah hears means Allaah knows. Because they don't believe that Allaah sees and hears things as they happen, because that would according to them a change in Allaah. So they are deceivers.
@@brutal_- then your God is blind and deaf
@@brutal_-lets me ask a question, when you are reading this message, does God see you reading at the moment you are reading it or before you were reading it ?
Another big oops moment from Minhaji, Menon and Co 😂
Hello brother Jake, can you recommend any book or videos for studying Aqeedah?
Aqeedah wassitiyah, OneWaytoparadise channel abu mussab has done many lessons explaining it aswell
@@thereligionofabraham lmao... abu mussab the Shrek 😂
@@MuhammadAbdullah-kx3kn haha why u calling him shrek?
@@thereligionofabraham duh...
he looks and acts like the Shrek
@@MuhammadAbdullah-kx3kn no he doesnt
Minhaji tried to save the day with some screaming and trouble causing this was not muslim adab
But it was Minhaji adab 😂
@@xposingchristianpringle الله يهديه
@@Baron8199 ابن تيمية ليس الشيخ الوحيد لاهل الحديث هذه مجرد خزعبلات من المعطلة
@@Baron8199 أبدأك قبل ميلاد الاشعري اصلا : سعيد ابن المسيب توفي ٩٤ هجري
الحسن البصري ١١٠ هجري
الاوزاعي ١٥٧ هجري
مالك ابن انس ١٧٩ هجري
ابن راهويه ٢٣٤ هجري
احمد ابن حنبل ٢٤١
احمد ابن سعيد الدارمي جلادكم ٢٥٣
البخاري ٢٥٦
مسلم ٢٦١
ابن ماجه
ابو داود
الترمذي
ومن كبار الفقهاء عند السادة المالكية اذكر ابن ابي زيد القيرواني مالك الصغير وبدون ان ننسا الذهبي وابن قاضي الجبل وابن كثير و الطبري حبر الامة وابن القيم الجززية وغيرهم وفي القرون الاخيرة سالم ابن عدود وابن عثيمين والالباني و المعلمي اليماني وغيرهم .
والسلام عليكم يا ابناء افلاطون وارسطاليس
@@Baron8199 الفرقة الوهابية فرقة ضالة لانها تمتلك علماء في قبل ميلاد الاشعري ياللسخف 😂😂😂😂 كون شوخنا اقدم من الاشعري مدح وليس ذم وذكرت لك من هم قبل الاشعي كما ذكرت لك من هم من الالف الاخيرة انت ادعيت الا شيخ لنا غير ابن تيمية فانكشف كذبك شيوخنا موجودون قبل ميلاد الاشعري وبعده وكان هاذا الدين اقامه الاشعري ... هل كان ابو بكر وعثمان وعمر على ظلالة ياترى ؟ وهل كانو يعرفون الجوهر والعرض ودليل المقولات الاربع و الحدوث والامكان حقا بالتأكيد لا ففطرتهم سليمة وهم على الجادة خلاف مبتدعة الاشعرية احباب القبور .
سبحانك يا الهي. لن ترى اشعرياَ يدعو الناس إلى الإسلام. كلّ همهم افساد عقيدة المسلمين فقط. لن ترى واحد منهم له قناة يدعوا غير المسلمين إلى الإسلام.
عجيب ما لجّوا إلى هذا إلا بعد تكفير النجديون لسواد الأمة من أهل السنة
قبحهم الله
حتى في الغرب يتترسون بولي الأمر هناك كما تترسوا به من قبل لسجن كل من يعارض عقيدتهم كما فعلوا بشيخ الإسلام وابن ابي العز الحنفي وغيرهم كثير، وسلفهم في ذلك المعتزلة.
When people are not honest and can’t even admit their mistakes you know you are misguided and that is just embarrassing. ….”even if a kafir comes with alhaq the just thing to do is 2 acknowledge”….subhana’allah
Jake you should shoot a series of video about what the Ashari aqida beliefs do require as binding neccesities, and that they are deceiving the masses and hiding their real beliefs. For example they claim to believe that God hears and sees, but they dont believe that God sees and hears things as they happen, NO they either say the absurd claim that Allaah sees and hears all things eternally or they those who acknowledged that this is a absurdity say "Allaah sees means Allaah knows" and "Allaah hears means Allaah knows".
But the same they need to say about Allaah knowing also, as according to them Allaah does not know (beside the eternally foreknowledge) the tensed facts at the moment they happen.
They already deceived the masses about that Allaah speaks. While in reality the deity they believe in does not speak at all, and they ascribe a eternal inner speech to Allaah (which in fact nothing else than knowledge is) and this also requires repugnant and absurd saying by way laazim such as that Allaah was adressing the non-existant, and even worse Allaah was lying since the Qur'aan contains phrases about things in the past completed tense.
Asharism is just a step to Batinism. Actually where they try to flee from requires that. But they deceive.
19:09 😂😂😂😂😂😂 damn boii
This was embarrassing, may Allah guide brother Harun Kanjj he seems to be a sincere good brother
ash'aris are not our brothers
@@terroriz0rlol ok shaykh
These Asharis are so deceptive SubhanAllah
they seem to give the vibes
Notice how brother abdulrahman constantly says “we will get there” but never actually gets there.
Maybe you forgot to unmute that part.
What was he referring to with "we will get there"/ what exactly didn't he get to?
Lol ta'weel of conversation right before our eyes 😂😂
I think we should take a step back and read from the original sources of the Asharis and Maatureediyyah and the Atharis and the books of ibn Taymiyyah. So far I understand all are within Ahlus Sunnah. The best way is to read for example the Sanoosiyyah series and the refutations upon Sh Safar al-Hawaalis book on Asharis like the 2 part refutation by Sh Salaah al-Idlibi and Sh Muhammed Saleh al-Gharsi. Read also the books of Sh Saif al-Asri and Sh Abdul-Fattah al-Yaafi’ee and Saeed Mamdooh and others. Also Abdullah al-Ujairi. We need to take a step back and read a lot then research and analyse. It’s your WAAJIB! All of you in the debate and the students of knowledge who are serious on these topics.
Your comment assumes we have the positions we do due to ignorance on our part. It's actually the opposite. We know they aren't from ASWJ because we know what they believe.
@@JakeBrancatella did we read the refutations upon Sh Safar al-Hawaii’s book on the Asharis? Like the 2 parts of Sh Salaah al-Idlibi and Sh Muhammed Saleh al-Gharsi? Did we read the 5 book series by Imam as-Sunoosi? Did we read the Athari/Hanbali Aqeedah books? Did we read the big commentary of Sh Saeed Fodeh on Aqeedah Tahawiyyah? Did we read Sharh al-Mawaaqif? Did we read the refutation of Imam Subki on the Nooniyyah of Imam ibnul Qayyum? Did we read the books of Sh Saif al-Asri like Al-Qawl at-Tamaam and Bid’ah and Muqaddimaat? The books and researches of Sh Abdul-Fattah al-Yaafi’er? I’m saying we need to understand inside out from their own sources properly first. I wasted 25 years not doing this but trusted and relied upon only refutations within the Salafis when they quoted the Asharis.
@@GenerationSalaahudDeen You can start with this and then tell me if I am misrepresenting them.
www.academia.edu/121022345/Asharism_The_Creed_of_the_Ummah
@@JakeBrancatella Jzkl for this. I enjoyed it and found it very interesting. What conclusions can we draw from all this? That there’s 4 Madhabs in Aqeedah like Sh Taqi Uthmani mentioned? And these are matters of Ijtihaad? That the majority of the scholars past 800 years have been Asharis/Maatureedi or Hanbali/Athari upon Tafweedh? That the general Muslim folk have always been inline with the Athariyyah/Taymi way of Ith’baat/Affirmation in a way that befits Allah and with Tanzeeh too? Could you mention more books in English and Arabic that discuss this? Jzkl for this eye opener
@@GenerationSalaahudDeen There are many questions in you comment. I'll respond to just one of them for now. It's not merely the general Muslim laity that have be inline with Ibn Taymiyyah's positions. The majority of ahlul hadith and Hanbalis were too. Please see my paper here where I demonstrate that the most controversial and fundamental difference between Atharis and Ash'aris was held by the early muhadithun including Imam al-Bukhari. See here: www.academia.edu/115368939/The_God_of_Aristotle_is_Not_the_God_of_Abraham
"Who is Al-Minhaji?"
His manners are not in alignment with Islamic manners!
Sad
The adab displayed by some of these brothers is shocking. Who is this President fella coming out from nowhere? The Manhaaji fella was very disruptive as well.
Not versed to speak on the topic but 'President' sounds across like 1 of those aggressive chihuahua's that sqeal the moment another dog barks back.
Asharis messing up again
Minhaji comes to save ashari ass! Hahahah such a trans 😂
كلام فاضي الاشعري لا يعلم ما يقول
Minhaji and President showing awful adab