📌 Hi everyone! The program code for Cronos Control is now available for download - link in the video description. You’ll also find all the component links there. I’m still refining the 3D model to make control as smooth and comfortable as possible. It will be available for a small fee after the Kickstarter campaign ends on November 26. The campaign launches on November 5 - reserve your 3D model at the early bird price and support the project www.kickstarter.com/projects/diy-yari/cronos-control-ergonomic-controller-for-precision-and-comfort! 🚀
hey looking at your quickstarter page, I think will be nice if there is some pack, that is the components and the 3D model for print. In my case half of the links from aliexpress ended in a "not found item page"
Hi, nice project! Here some of my functional concerns: - is the scroll dual axis? 'Cause it’s super convenient when softwares take advantage of horizontal scrolling - are there ctrl/shift/alt keys integration under the thumb? I do a lot of ctrl-clicks, shift-right clicks etc, I'd love those one hand accessible - a mirrored (left-handed) design? For those 15% of people out there, including my daughter - mouse sensitivity tweaks? My mouse has a button where it goes from super low to normal sensitivity, for my children to use - "turbo" trigger, for spam triggering buttons (most likely left clicks) - modular and optional panels, with media keys (volume up/down/mute, prev/next/pause/stop music, browser/email/app1-9)? - a trackballed version replacing the main joystick? - something usefull for the pinky to interact with, to finally have a use for more than 3 fingers? Just random questions, I'll have a look at the kickstarter. 😊
Just looked at the KS page, and the DIY version with parts to mount myself could be good. I'd want to fiddle around with the 3D model to mod it, with the option to order more/less buttons depending of my target use.
@@jaumesinglavalls5486 Thank you for your feedback! It’s possible that some of the links aren't visible in all regions-sorry for the inconvenience. I’ll add a detailed list of the required components to the description so it’s easier for everyone to find what they need. I'm also considering creating a new pack option that includes the 3D model along with all the necessary components for self-assembly. Thanks again for the suggestion!
@@DIY_Yarik you are welcome! I simply took a look, and since I've got a 3d printer, and I saw your comment on depending the demand, I thought can be a good idea.
I appreciate the work, but I think switching from the absolute motion of a mouse to the relative motion of a joystick misses the point of a mouse to many of us.
I don't know, I used to enjoy the little red joystick on the laptop quite a lot, I'm sure I'd get used to this in no time. I'd be interested in buying if it was for sale. Long days with 3d work really wreaks my wrist, even with a vertical mouse I like.
Never used the little keyboard pointer on Thinkpads? You can't really game with them but they work fine for desktop use. More motivation to learn keyboard shortcuts.
@@kellymoses8566 You can game with them, but its not for every task... I played Descent 1 and Descent 2 with these. Works perfect, like it was made for this shooter
@@SianaGearzlol what? Touchpads were a thing decades ago. These thinkpads had a touch pad and a little joystick. Moving a cursor across the entire screen is still a tedious task with a touch pad. The nibble works better and effortless
i understand many of the design choices to an extent but i feel like the layout is especially counterintuitive in my opinion. watching you use it seems like you were heavily straining your hand and could lead to some tendon issues. however i do believe that it can be improved by more design iterations so keep working! i love the video and i think youve a great job designing something for yourself!
Did you look into hall effect sensors for the joystick? That feels like it would at least partially alleviate the wobble and probably eliminate the dead zone, too. Might be worth investigating if you're making it an actual product so you don't need the rubber and foam that perish over time.
Thanks for the suggestion! I've managed to solve the rattling and dead zone issues programmatically, achieving stable performance with nearly zero dead zone. Switching to hall effect sensors would increase the product cost significantly, so I'm sticking with the current setup to keep it more affordable without compromising on quality.
@@DIY_Yarik Look up Hall gimballs for radio transmitters/drone controllers, there's a bunch of parts online and I do think a $10 gimball is going to outperform this joystick drastically.
@@DIY_Yarik By how much are we talking here? Pretty much anyone looking for unique looking mice have the budget for it. Cause if they're really looking to go cheap, they would buy a regular mouse. TMR and/or HE joystick goes beyond just solving the deadzone issue. We're also tackling longevity and future convenience with hardware like that. Because we're addressing wear and tear. 1 pair (2 pcs) of TMR stick kits (Not just the TMR module, but the casing and everything else as well. A full kit) costs $10 today. How much less later? Cool looking tech, a promise of longevity, and great utility? Then upgradability via replacing some of its' parts later on? Pretty sure i'm not in the minority by saying i'm willing to shelve out at least $200 for something like that!
Some people are trying to create an open-source and 3D printed "space mouse" clone. I've seen a few but the one that comes to mind is called OS3M. Might be worth a look for borrowing ideas as they have a very clever motion sensing circuit and mechanism.
2:17 - Goal is Ultimate ergo mouse 3:08 - that form factor looks familiar... wait is that a ergo stationary mice? 3:14 - mini trackball or a force sensor array [TrackPoint] would have been a good contender 3:22 - Hall effect joystick could solve the dead point issue 3:31 - a 3 axis's magnetometer would have been a better option to the gyroscope, the main shaft can be made of metal 3:36 - a stalwart platform is more stabled 3:53 - inspiration mostly likely to be from the Suncom's "Atom Mouse" or Altra's "Felix Pointing Device" 4:07 - this is just a slightly worst version of a hobbyist space mouse 4:12 - a flight stick? 4:31 - this is just a space mouse with 4-axies out of 6-axis missing 6:34 - this is just a Video Editing Console that happens have a flight stick attach to it I like the ideas in the video, but this needs further refinement to become a finish product. I wonder what a version 2 of this ultra Mouse would look like.
People have been trying to find an alternative to the mouse for decades and yet it still is the most popular way to control a pointer. And I think that's the case because it's simply the best solution. I've used joysticks in the past to control a cursor and they simply are not that precise. And if you increase the precision, then they are slow as hell to move around. I hate being negative because I love to design and build things as well, but I just don't see how this joystick-like device really can replace a mouse. I would suggest designing a "3D mouse" similar to the overpriced ones made by Connexions (their name is something like that). 3D mice would typically be used in tandem with a regular mouse. The 3D mouse would be used to manipulate (zoom, orbit, pan) a 3D model in CAD or 3D modeling software usually with your left hand, while the regular mouse is used to manipulate the user interface (moving the pointer and activating menus and icons) typically eith your right hand. Again, not trying to be too negative, but your joystick design already looks like some of the 3D mice on the market.
Thank you for your detailed comment and honest opinion! I agree that the mouse is a time-tested device, and many still consider it the best solution. However, my goal is to offer a convenient alternative for those who are looking for something more ergonomic and are not afraid to experiment. My design managed to achieve the right balance between precision and speed of movement to make it convenient for everyday use, and the software settings allow you to adjust the sensitivity to your preferences.
@@DIY_Yarik You might want to take a look at some of LGR's input device videos. The Spaceorb and Altra Felix in particular. Those were both, uhhh, deeply flawed devices to put it nicely but they had an interesting way of doing things that you might be able to adapt or reuse somehow.
FWIW what I see that’s reasonably novel here is starting to merge the macro pad pointer control device. I’m not sure who decided that my hot keys all belong on my keyboard and I assure you this isn’t an attempt to rationalize the second numpad that lives between my keyboard and mouse…
@@1RandomToaster this exists, see Tobii eye tracking, they say it’s a two-decade product. 👍 There's still a lot to improve in this field, namely pointer precision (because of eye wanderings), and input intent (blinking is slow, drawing patterns with eyes is slow and stress-inducing), you're better off with a mix of solutions than hope for a one-size-fits-all.
Something that may help stabilize your gyro point is letting it sit, nested, on a cone shape inside the device. That way you're rolling the stick around the cone, but the rubber bands keep it taught and in place against the cone. This keeps the stick from floating and bouncing. keeps the gyro centered on a point to minimize errant movement, and you can rest your finger on the stick instead of need to hover over it.
Thanks for the interesting idea! The concept of a cone-shaped base for gyro stabilization does sound reasonable in terms of reducing unwanted oscillations and fixing the center point. However, in my design with a gimbal joystick, the main jitter suppression is already achieved by software filters and the gimbal. Such a system reduces the influence of external oscillations and minimizes inertial shifts. Therefore, adding a cone stabilizer in my case may not bring a significant improvement. Nevertheless, the approach is interesting and may work great in other implementations!
@@DIY_Yarik I think the cone could help not necessarily where you've already done the leg work on the PC side of oscillations, but on the user interface side. As I haven't used the device I'm not sure, but if you have to "hover" your finger over the joystick to keep from pushing it down into the base of the device that may be fatiguing after extended use. Additionally, physical redundancy never hurts the software solutions, lol! Definitely just a random thought suggestion and you really are dialing this thing in so I hope it works out well! New ergonomic input devices are pretty rare these days and something like this could help a lot of people! All the luck!
That's crazy your mouse broke in a year! I use my mouse daily for probably 8-10 hours, and I'm constantly clicking it and it's still going strong. I have the MX Master 3 so it's quite similar. It's harder to imagine more usage than I've thrown at this thing. What was your usage like? I use mine a ton in 3D modeling, 2D animation, Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. on a 49" ultrawide. Edit: just finished watching. Cool stuff. I love when people make their own things. I like the ability to easily stop where I am with a traditional mouse, but this is still really cool. Good job!
I have the MX Master 3 as well and after a year it's still going strong. Looking at the way he moves the mouse and states "they wear out with each heavy press" I think he's just placing way too much pressure on the thing. Those skates shouldn't be creased and crushed like they are through normal use.
"What was your usage like?" probably normal usage with throwing the mouse once a day into the wall... But I like the creative way of using a gyro sensor...
@@checksum00 agreed, mine has wear pretty much all over the surfaces where I’m touching it, but still works flawlessly. Having said that, I’ve had mouses that the microswitches has failed on.
The MX ERGO S trackball is an amazing pointer. Granted, I have been using thumb trackballs since 93 and I think it is absolutely the most ergonomic design in existence. Your arm and palm are completely relaxed during operation and your thumb and fingers land on the control surfaces completely naturally. Combined with a SpaceMouse, navigating 3D environments is a breeze.
100% agree. Gaming with it is a breeze. And alot of the wear associated with a traditional mouse is completely eliminated. I won't ever go back to a regular mouse.
I switched from thumb trackballs to index/middle finger trackballs. Way better experience, ergonomic-wise. No more thumb joint pains after a couple hours of use. Also, you can flick it. Flicking with thumb trackballs is somehow awkward and feels unnatural to me. And since you can flick it, you can game with it. I'm pretty sure i'm faster at moving in games with index/middle finger trackball mices... I'm sorry, MOUSE. I haven't changed this mouse (which i use for everything) for the last 6 years.
@@quasimojo777 Wait... You can game with a trackball mouse? I cannot imagine how that feels tbh I never used one of those mices but somehow got interested
@@exactpause9218 absolutely can. I grew up in the 80's with games like centipede, gallaga, asteroids, missile command (all on tabletop consoles) and on tabletop they used track balls. 2 years ago I noticed how badly I was wearing out surfaces on my arm chair, laptop board, sliding an optical mouse around. Plus the wear I was putting on the mouse itself. I thought, let's eliminate the movement of the mouse around the surfaces and then I remembered TRACKBALL! I researched the hell out of trackball mice and settled on the MX Ergo. Have not looked back since. I've played Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West, Both of the new God of War, Missile Command (for old times sake), Civ VI, X Com 1 and 2, all on Linux/Steam and with no issue from a mouse input perspective.
@exactpause9218 yep! Completely possible. Just takes a little getting used to, but with practice and tweaking, you can be extremely accurate, utilizing the momentum from flicking the trackball and stopping it to turn fast.
Watching it in use (7:09), I don't feel like this would be comfortable for me. It appears to be straining your index finger more, whereas with a traditional mouse, you're just using small movements of your wrist instead of your one finger. But I'm glad you followed through and made something that truly makes *you* happy, very few people have the ability to custom engineer something just for themselves, well done.
I'm not a fan of the mouse myself (unless I'm gaming) i use a trackball because I hate moving around the desk, but the trackball is no mouse. I think there are some haters here. I especially love the copy , paste buttons. Cronos seems like a cool project. Whenever i finish building my 3D printer this is going to be one of the first!!
Awesome build, it's given me some ideas for my own controller. Regarding your switch problems, my older Logitech trackball uses Omron switches with the spring steel lever (also, made in Japan--higher build quality). They're over 20 years old and still going strong.
I'm glad my video inspired you to come up with new ideas! As for Omron microswitches, I completely agree - it's better to buy them from trusted suppliers, since fakes from China are quite common.
I love this, since I've spent a great deal of time agonizing over what trackball mouse to get when one of mine suffers a breakdown. I'm not technically inclined enough to feel comfortable switching pieces or building one myself as you have, but it sounds like we have very similar tastes in functionality! My only suggestion would be, if possible, making it so the volume knob can be pressed as a button for a quick mute/unmute feature. I work in hotels, and being able to quickly mute my video or game when a guest needs something has been handy countless times.
Thank you, I'm very glad that my idea is close to you! 😊 Unfortunately, it won't work to build a button under the volume control - this can lead to rapid wear of the encoder. There are encoder models with a button, but their rotation angle is limited and the feeling is not as pleasant as this endless rotation. But your idea is cool, and I'll think about how to add a quick mute function in the future!
I've gotten so use to touchpads, that I wouldn't mind if I never use a joystick again. I like the idea of designing a pad that has a standard flat pad for general movement and pointing, a separate up/down, and separate left/right pad, and a curved pad for curved left/right and another curved pad for curved up/down.
Thank you very much for your support! 😊 I don't play that often myself, but I'll try the device in the classic - Command and Conquer: Red Alert. The controls are smooth and convenient, but in a combat situation, when high speed is required, the pace may be a little lacking. But the Microsoft Flight Simulator device showed itself to be excellent - the controls were as smooth and responsive as possible, which created an amazing experience. I hope you like it too!
Thank you very much! Very interesting device but very expensive, I have never seen it before. I think I have a plan how to improve it and make it much cheaper.
You may want to consider making the palm/wrist support an length rail, since not everyone will share your hand size. But that's just a thought for the Kickstarter aspect of this product.
I think it's really cool that you did this and also shared so much. I myself am a power user and a fierce gamer (competitive at times), so a joystick (so to say) really would not be anywhere near precise enough or fast enough to keep up with the absolute positioning and rapid movement I need in gaming that is sensitive to millisecond details. In my case I'm rocking a Logitech G604. That being said, maybe some day I might decide I want to build my own mouse, but I might steal parts from this or other Logitech mice to get me what I want. There's also the very curious aspect of mouse movement being an arc and not a straight line left and right, which is probably addressed with on-board firmware in the mouse (SPECULATION). After getting my first real custom keyboard, it's seriously exciting that we now have so many options and the means to build our own devices like this! A mouse of this nature might be useful for me in other parts of my life (video production workstation maybe?). So like, still very cool you did this and shared, and I hope you keep at it! :D Oh and I move files and windows all around all the time with my G604, I'd prefer it for even that kind of task :P
Thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful comment! I really appreciate hearing insights from a power user and gamer like you. It's fascinating to see how people approach custom devices differently based on their needs. While my device might not fully match the precision demands of competitive gaming yet, I'm thrilled that it sparked your interest and inspired ideas for potential custom builds. The point about mouse movement being an arc rather than a straight line is very insightful, and you're absolutely right - such nuances are often handled through firmware. As for using this type of device in other workflows like video production, that's exactly one of the areas I had in mind while developing it. Thanks again for your encouragement - it really means a lot! I hope you keep exploring and building devices that work perfectly for your needs. 😊
Thank you very much for such a high rating. I'm glad you liked it, in a couple of weeks I'll bring all the details to perfection and I'll be able to post them for downloading
Ah man, the OG performance MX is a very nostalgic mouse. I spent many years using one (swapping for a new ones every few years) because it honestly had the perfect shape. It took me a long time to find another mouse I genuinely liked after that. It just got too expensive having to replace it so often. I went back to logitech some years later when my wrist started acting up because of the MX vertical which is a great mouse. I still use one for work also I also having a gaming mouse that's more tuned to non-work applications.
I've had same issues with clickers in two of my mice. The metal part bent the wrong way and got stuck. To fix it I had to disassemble the clicker and reassemble it. To say that it was a pain to reassemble the clicker is an understatement as you need really fine tools to do it, which I didn't have, so it was a matter of trying to assembling it until it assembled correctly. But both times I was able to fix the clicker and it kept working for years without any issues.
Thank you! This is very useful advice. I have already changed it to be more ergonomic with adjustable length for different hands and angle. I will show it in the next video.
Interesting project. I'm not sure how practical a joystick is when trackpads exist. I think a trackpad with some functionality buttons in easy to reach spots would be a more practical and more comfortable approach. Though I don't build things and am not sure how difficult it would be to implement your own trackpad
It’s an amazing diy and hats off to the dude making what he wants. But Yeah there’s a reason why people don’t like controlling a cursor with PlayStation/xbox controllers. So I think this guy is off on his own island of input devices
I have extensive experience with various input devices: I've tried mice of all kinds, three types of trackballs, and even the Logitech Rechargeable Touchpad T650. However, I found some issues with the trackpad - my finger quickly tires from the surface, and desired actions are often misinterpreted. In my search for something truly comfortable, I decided to create my own mouse. I'm still refining the joystick shape, and in just a couple of weeks, you'll be able to download the model and try it out yourself!
I look forward to seeing this develop! Hope you go down the framework route and let it be a user DIY thing with options for different button modules and configurations. I've been seeking a new mouse and keep thinking how much I'd love a mouse that can be pulled apart and have new parts added to give it wireless/Bluetooth/cabled connectivity, also being able to have more robust metal buttons and external panels. A mouse for longevity and modularity.
Thank you! I’m definitely aiming to keep it as open and customizable as possible. I've already shared the device code on GitHub, and I'm working on finishing the setup program for PC, which will also be available as both code and a ready-made app. This way, users can fully configure it to suit their needs.
I'm sure you've already thought of it but Hall Effect joysticks can be more precise and wear less, needing a smaller/nonexistant deadzone if you ever want to revisit this.
There's a version of a controller that I've always wanted to see come to life. 360 movement from an analog stick on a controller for the left hand, and the accuracy of the mouse in the right hand for camera control. Never had the knowledge or skill to make one myself, but also didn't know how to make it work in most games. Would be great to see if it's possible though.
Thank you for sharing your idea! A setup like that - combining 360-degree movement with precise mouse control - sounds incredibly intuitive and versatile. Bringing ideas like yours to life is exactly what drives projects like mine. While implementing compatibility with a wide range of games can be a challenge.
Have the option to replace the joystick with a trackball, as well as making it wireless and we're golden. I'll be backing that kickstarter in a heart beat!
Interesting idea, I will try to implement a trackball to test this concept, but for now I will say that I have become very accustomed to the joystick after a month and I am not sure that the ball will be better. But I need to try to know for sure. Thanks for the idea.
Exciting project! Although it doesn’t fully replace a mouse for me in some ways, I’m curious why you chose not to place the joypad under the thumb. Among all primates, the thumb is the most flexible finger.
I'd like to see a mouse or something along those lines that uses the wrist to control left and right movements, and possibly use wrist up and down wrist movement to move forward or backwards. While still keeping the mouse buttons. (Forgot to tell you. Great job on this project it looks really cool.)
First off, it's always a pleasure watch someone design and build a new idea they're passionate about, keep it up! However, I have a major concern about the ergonomics of this. The hand and wrist are forced backwards quite a bit which is not a natural position for them and will lead to wrist issues with prolonged use. The advantage of a "mouse" that doesn't move is that you can place it in any orientation you want, so I would encourage looking at how you can redesign with that in mind. Try just letting your arm and hand relax down onto your desk and see the position that they sit in at their most relaxed state, and design to try and keep your hand in that position. Secondly, on ergonomics, several of your controls need quite a reach to work them. This is especially noticeable with the scroll lever; your finger is fully stretched just to get your fingertip on it. The best possible situation is to have all your controls at your fingertip without having to move your fingers at all, so consider how that could be done. For the joystick, several people have recommended hall effect joysticks already, which to me seems likely to be the best solution, but if you want to continue with your design, then consider trying a very loose fit ball and socket filled with grease to smooth out the motions. The socket would be part of the base, and the joystick would have a ball on the end that sits loosely inside, with the space filled with grease. This would move smoothly but the grease would slightly resist motion and help to prevent vibrations.
Having scroll use a joystick instead of a wheel is a great idea and could be built into everyday mice, I think it would be an improvement over the standard mouse wheel.
Lots of interesting design. It seems like you could keep the joystick but surround it with curved shape for your palm and other fingers. The buttons and wheels could be placed on the curved shape, so you could operate them without moving your hand.
Thank you for the interesting offer! The design of the device has really come a long way, and the current form is the result of many tests and improvements for maximum comfort and ergonomics. I came to a form that, in my opinion, is the most convenient and allows you to use buttons and wheels without changing the natural position of your hand. But I will definitely take your comment into account for the future, there is always room for improvement!
This is amazing, but I have never had a mouse go bad or wear out a mouse and I use one for about 7 years over 6 hours a day so I am so curious how you go through so many mice.
I'm always interested in good ergonomic input devices. I want to give a shoutout to Azeron EU, specifically the Cyro model. It's a vertical mouse with 20 buttons, analog stick etc and fully programmable. Great guy, great support, absolutely awesome product.
Innovation is always good! I do wonder though, how long the rubber bands would last until they stop working as intended? With enough use, I predict they aren't much better than switches on mice..?
Thank you! Those rubber bands were simple office ones. Now I have remade them for 4 rubber bands made of high-quality rubber that will keep its shape for a long time. And this made the joystick move much smoother in all directions. I am making a video about the new changes and I hope to show it to you soon.
You are amazing for putting your plan to motion. Copy and paste, scrolling (love your idea) and volume is pretty convenient. Wrist rest is nice, too. However (let's pretend I'm customer) I think my finger would hurt as hell after one shift in office. Yes, granted, XBox/PS controllers had joysticks too and I remember to adjust to it for several months. That would be probably okay in your case. The buttons are fine, but mabe make them a little higher. It seems a bit straining to reach them. Durability - it is sturdy and I love it! Weakpoint are those gum bands. Would vertical springs help on each of four (or eight)sides and something to hold it in center? Just a thought. I really hope you will finish it to fully functional mouse - and main thing - it will be joy to use for you :)
Thank you for your thoughtful feedback and support! I’m glad you liked features like scrolling and volume control - they were designed with comfort in mind. Regarding finger tension, it appeared that way because my hand was in an unnatural position for filming. In my upcoming video, I’ll showcase design updates, including replacing the two rubber bands with four high-quality ones for uniform tension. Your suggestion about vertical springs is intriguing - I’ll explore it as a way to enhance stability and durability. Thanks again for your input! Feedback like this helps me refine the project and make it even better to use.
Very interesting, I would try one just out of curiosity. I've been using an Elecom EX-G PRO Trackball for years and it's been the best solution for me. After throwing away multiple thumb-controlled trackballs from logitech, also for the same cheap part issues you described here, I ended up with this, so far, great solution. I've grown somewhat adverse to the tired and old mouse design and think that innovation in this area is way too slow due to people's stubborn "lack of" adoption rate to something new and better. Some food for thought, if you do get some traction on this, adding another axis of control similar to a "space mouse" might be something to explore. Good job, will support!
Thank you! I really appreciate the support and your suggestion about adding a third vertical axis, like in a space mouse-that’s an inspiring idea. I’ll start brainstorming an algorithm to integrate it smoothly; it might even be possible to implement without major hardware changes. Definitely something worth exploring!
The Razer Mamba Elite has the best solution for scrolling I've come across. You hold the mouse wheel to the side, left or right, to continually scroll. If you look at a top down picture of it you'll see two arrows to the left and right of wheel indicating this. I've never found another mouse that does this and after having used it I can never go back.
@@mattl204 Razer Basilisk has HyperScroll option also. It allows for a free-wheel scrolling mode with big wheeling power. Combined with horizontal scrolling, I can’t go back either. 🥰 (Logitech G502 has an earlier equivalent, but barely usable due to the stopping being less reliable.)
This is a pretty cool project and I am glad it works for you. But I don't have any of the problems you have with a mouse; I seem to use a different grip than the three you proposed (my hand is totally relaxed and have no issue reaching any button or scroll wheel), I have never had a mouse break on me that just cleaning wouldn't fix (since the 80s), and I just set my sensitivity high enough that I hardly have to move my wrist to move the cursor to a second screen. It also seems like your cursor moves atrociously slow, you should do a 'cookie clicker' or similar demo to highlight the accuracy and speed of the cursor movement.
I think if you're going to stick with the joystick as a mouse idea you should look into the way that drone pilots use joysticks, then your arm could be placed in a more natural position like using a vertical mouse and have the control of pinching the stick.
Thank you for your advice! Before developing it, I studied different types of joysticks, including those used to control drones. In aviation, super-precision is not always required, whereas for working in 3D programs or other tasks where high precision is important, perfect smoothness of control is necessary. That is why I chose this design of joystick - it is better suited for these purposes.
Thank you! In this task it was important to accurately measure angular movements, so I chose a gyroscope, which copes better with determining the location in space than a joystick based on a Hall sensor.
@@DIY_Yarik I see. Fair enough. I'm more sensitive to input latency even for desktop tasks. I haven't tested them side-by-side, but I believe the gyro sensors usually come with a greater lag. But obviously the beauty of a project like this is that you get to choose and prioritise whatever is most important to you. And I love the fact that so many RUclips makers are doing this sort of stuff now.
So recently, Keyboards with Hall effect sensors have been coming out. They use magnetic strength to determine keypress inputs instantly. You can adjust how far you press the key before it registers an input and everything. If you're still looking for a way of improving your "mouse" maybe hall effect sensors might be a direction you can look at. As for my own opinion on this, honestly I can't see myself ever coming close to using this. It uses way to much finger movement to navigate to the different functions and it would quickly become tedious to me after an extended duration of use. To each their own though. If this works for you, then that's all that should matter to you.
If you went that far as basically making your own type of mouse, it would also be a great idea to make it at an "handshake" angle to reduce risk of carpal tunnel syndrome, and it honestly looks like it would be easy to implement
Yes, I did it, changed the hand rest making it ergonomic with a slight tilt. I plan to make another video soon where I will show the changes and also demonstrate it in operation.
How about using a logitech thumb trackball? Perfect mouse for me, been using them for years. If you want speed, flick the ball and let it roll. It may not be quite as fast as a regular mouse, but its close. And they're only $40 iirc. I have a stockpile of old ones that I use for parts when necessary.
Good on you for designing something that works for you. Personally, I can't really see a use for this in my own day to day. I use my index for the scroll/mmb and keep my index and middle fingers on lmb and rmb, and use a spacemouse for navigation in 3d software. My keyboard is a 65% and fully programable with layers so I can mirror further to reach keys, and a num pad to another layer for ease. Mouse is a wireless g502 x, I'm not sure what they use in master mice, but these use optical switches. I've tried a lot of mice, and this is my favorite by far. I do disagree with a joystick no matter it's range being quicker or more precise with a mouse. But if it works for you, cheers.
But serious, a software to interpret a trackpad as an joystick would be awsome, so you don’t drag your finger stand it move and drag againg as it’s boring slow, you just drag and how the direction. Would be interesting as it cannot have spring or lever failure, and can substitute you middle joystick
Thank you! The Space Mouse by 3Dconnexion is a great piece of inspiration-I really admire its unique functionality. I can see the appeal of trackballs; they offer excellent precision with minimal movement. My goal is to combine similar ease of use with more ergonomic support. Appreciate the feedback!
From an ergonomics perspective this has good and not so good aspects. The wrist support is very good, additionally the fingers are in a more relaxed position, which is great! However, controlling a joystick with a finger might hurt after a while. It’s because the finger’s muscles for sideways motion are weak compared to the gripping and stretching. Traditional mouses use arm and wrist muscles for the movements. So, maybe there’s some room improvement there. Or if it’s not an issue for you then it’s not a problem of course! Though, wild thought, maybe you could use a joystick or wheel either your thumb for horizontal movement, and a joystick/wheel for vertical movement. Kind of like the scroll wheels, but for cursor movement 😂
it seems like you need more of a ergo mouse like the sideways ones. That one doesn't look like it would actually be fast or precise, in say, a gaming setting, though for programming it could be fine. Mice for precision on a gaming level need to be able to snap into place which joysticks just can't do as dynamically.
If you can find one and want to deal with another standard mouse for ideas try finding a Logitech G600. I have been using this for years, and since they don't sell them anymore I have backups. I find the ergonomics nice since it actually has 3 finger rests on the top, and having over a dozen programmable buttons on it makes it exceptionally versatile because of the different profiles you can have for every program you want to use it with. I also use it in conjunction with the Logitech G13 (something they also stopped making), this adds far more function. If you are set on it being stationary I would highly suggest moving the joystick to the thumb position, this frees up all your other fingers for other tasks and could make it so you aren't forced to stop movement when you are using most of the other buttons. Also for the joystick you've probably already thought of it, but just in case you haven't, you might check out "hall effect" joysticks to get rid of dead zones. Because Logitech has stopped making the products I highly love using currently I might also have to go down this route at some point. Best of luck to you with this project.
@@osmanpasha_diy they are inferior becouse with persistance of madman they are refusing transfer from carbon to cermet/polymer/hall/anything reasonable, carbon based traces allow you to make any resistance with any and even dumb characteristics like infinite spinning, on mass and for cheap becouse traces are literally printed by stupid printer from ink, and alps is using that to spam totally random products, but becouse carbon traces are...carbon based they are disintegrating and washer is carrying blob of oil with dust from constatly disintegrating tracers, that means your resistance in point is always different when you move back to it, and wait, there is more! usually they have 300-1000 turns of life time while polymer have 10k minimum and i bet, PS5 pad has a standard 1k carbon traces in potentiometers becouse some beancounter didn't allow to buy 10x more expensive (2 vs 20cent) special "heavy duty" wear resistent type. there is also one more extra problem EVERY time when someone is making device with me they just have to choose potentiometer with the dumbest characteristic like 69Ω triple gang, with stop on right total custom characteristic in shape of butterfly, manufactured in limited quantity, available by unknown reason for nobody know how long with outragous price, becouse someone was bored and found something "interesting" on the internet...
I like the idea because I use a Dygma Defy keyboard and an X Keys L trac trackball. Would be nice to have something that makes a bit more sense working together. Both really good devices but moving your hands between the two is kind of odd
Very cool Project! I have also considered building something pretty similar. Have you ever considered using Hall Effect Joystics? Or were they in the video and I missed it when you said it in the video?
Thank you! In this task it was important to accurately measure angular movements, so I chose a gyroscope, which copes better with determining the location in space than a joystick based on a Hall sensor.
Personally, when it comes to long term repeatable and consistent precision, any gyroscopes I've used made me hate gyroscopes. I really don't understand how you came to the conclusion to use a gyroscope, but I also would want to try one out because the idea feels almost alien to me.
I'm currently working on a new video where I'll showcase some design improvements aimed at greater comfort. Of course, I'll also demonstrate how the mouse performs in various applications and even a bit in gaming.
If you really want this to be a long lasting mouse I would say maybe look into using something thats easier to buy in bulk or more customisable like keyboard switches- I think a nice low profile tactile one could still function well as a mouse input and can be hot-swapped, alternitavely I would suggest maybe look into designing an optical switch system- that way the only user servicable part after creation would be the physically touched part and any springs used
I tried using the original joystick from a PlayStation 2, but it didn’t work out well. Unfortunately, all mechanical joysticks I've tested have a significant dead zone and require too much force at the start of movement, which makes precise control difficult.
great mouse! really weird to me though-how are you breaking mice all the time? I see your Logitech MX got a lot of... dirt or something... inside it. Perhaps that's why?
What are you doing to your mice? I've had both the original MX and the first MX Master and I got many, many years of all day use out of them without ever having to replace any switches. I got 5 years out of the original before replacing it for entirely aesthetic reasons. I've had my first gen Master since 2017 with no problems...
📌 Hi everyone! The program code for Cronos Control is now available for download - link in the video description. You’ll also find all the component links there.
I’m still refining the 3D model to make control as smooth and comfortable as possible. It will be available for a small fee after the Kickstarter campaign ends on November 26.
The campaign launches on November 5 - reserve your 3D model at the early bird price and support the project www.kickstarter.com/projects/diy-yari/cronos-control-ergonomic-controller-for-precision-and-comfort! 🚀
hey looking at your quickstarter page, I think will be nice if there is some pack, that is the components and the 3D model for print. In my case half of the links from aliexpress ended in a "not found item page"
Hi, nice project!
Here some of my functional concerns:
- is the scroll dual axis? 'Cause it’s super convenient when softwares take advantage of horizontal scrolling
- are there ctrl/shift/alt keys integration under the thumb? I do a lot of ctrl-clicks, shift-right clicks etc, I'd love those one hand accessible
- a mirrored (left-handed) design? For those 15% of people out there, including my daughter
- mouse sensitivity tweaks? My mouse has a button where it goes from super low to normal sensitivity, for my children to use
- "turbo" trigger, for spam triggering buttons (most likely left clicks)
- modular and optional panels, with media keys (volume up/down/mute, prev/next/pause/stop music, browser/email/app1-9)?
- a trackballed version replacing the main joystick?
- something usefull for the pinky to interact with, to finally have a use for more than 3 fingers?
Just random questions, I'll have a look at the kickstarter. 😊
Just looked at the KS page, and the DIY version with parts to mount myself could be good.
I'd want to fiddle around with the 3D model to mod it, with the option to order more/less buttons depending of my target use.
@@jaumesinglavalls5486 Thank you for your feedback! It’s possible that some of the links aren't visible in all regions-sorry for the inconvenience. I’ll add a detailed list of the required components to the description so it’s easier for everyone to find what they need. I'm also considering creating a new pack option that includes the 3D model along with all the necessary components for self-assembly. Thanks again for the suggestion!
@@DIY_Yarik you are welcome! I simply took a look, and since I've got a 3d printer, and I saw your comment on depending the demand, I thought can be a good idea.
I appreciate the work, but I think switching from the absolute motion of a mouse to the relative motion of a joystick misses the point of a mouse to many of us.
I don't know, I used to enjoy the little red joystick on the laptop quite a lot, I'm sure I'd get used to this in no time. I'd be interested in buying if it was for sale. Long days with 3d work really wreaks my wrist, even with a vertical mouse I like.
Never used the little keyboard pointer on Thinkpads? You can't really game with them but they work fine for desktop use. More motivation to learn keyboard shortcuts.
@@kellymoses8566 You can game with them, but its not for every task...
I played Descent 1 and Descent 2 with these. Works perfect, like it was made for this shooter
@@kellymoses8566 There's a reason those died out. The capacitive touchpad worked better.
@@SianaGearzlol what? Touchpads were a thing decades ago. These thinkpads had a touch pad and a little joystick. Moving a cursor across the entire screen is still a tedious task with a touch pad. The nibble works better and effortless
i understand many of the design choices to an extent but i feel like the layout is especially counterintuitive in my opinion. watching you use it seems like you were heavily straining your hand and could lead to some tendon issues. however i do believe that it can be improved by more design iterations so keep working! i love the video and i think youve a great job designing something for yourself!
Did you look into hall effect sensors for the joystick? That feels like it would at least partially alleviate the wobble and probably eliminate the dead zone, too. Might be worth investigating if you're making it an actual product so you don't need the rubber and foam that perish over time.
I'd use hall + gyro + acc together
i came to say the same thing
Thanks for the suggestion! I've managed to solve the rattling and dead zone issues programmatically, achieving stable performance with nearly zero dead zone. Switching to hall effect sensors would increase the product cost significantly, so I'm sticking with the current setup to keep it more affordable without compromising on quality.
@@DIY_Yarik Look up Hall gimballs for radio transmitters/drone controllers, there's a bunch of parts online and I do think a $10 gimball is going to outperform this joystick drastically.
@@DIY_Yarik By how much are we talking here? Pretty much anyone looking for unique looking mice have the budget for it. Cause if they're really looking to go cheap, they would buy a regular mouse.
TMR and/or HE joystick goes beyond just solving the deadzone issue. We're also tackling longevity and future convenience with hardware like that. Because we're addressing wear and tear.
1 pair (2 pcs) of TMR stick kits
(Not just the TMR module, but the casing and everything else as well. A full kit)
costs $10 today. How much less later?
Cool looking tech, a promise of longevity, and great utility? Then upgradability via replacing some of its' parts later on? Pretty sure i'm not in the minority by saying i'm willing to shelve out at least $200 for something like that!
Some people are trying to create an open-source and 3D printed "space mouse" clone. I've seen a few but the one that comes to mind is called OS3M. Might be worth a look for borrowing ideas as they have a very clever motion sensing circuit and mechanism.
2:17 - Goal is Ultimate ergo mouse
3:08 - that form factor looks familiar... wait is that a ergo stationary mice?
3:14 - mini trackball or a force sensor array [TrackPoint] would have been a good contender
3:22 - Hall effect joystick could solve the dead point issue
3:31 - a 3 axis's magnetometer would have been a better option to the gyroscope, the main shaft can be made of metal
3:36 - a stalwart platform is more stabled
3:53 - inspiration mostly likely to be from the Suncom's "Atom Mouse" or Altra's "Felix Pointing Device"
4:07 - this is just a slightly worst version of a hobbyist space mouse
4:12 - a flight stick?
4:31 - this is just a space mouse with 4-axies out of 6-axis missing
6:34 - this is just a Video Editing Console that happens have a flight stick attach to it
I like the ideas in the video, but this needs further refinement to become a finish product. I wonder what a version 2 of this ultra Mouse would look like.
I'm currently busy filming a video about the changes I made thanks to your comments. Thank you for your constructive criticism.
People have been trying to find an alternative to the mouse for decades and yet it still is the most popular way to control a pointer. And I think that's the case because it's simply the best solution. I've used joysticks in the past to control a cursor and they simply are not that precise. And if you increase the precision, then they are slow as hell to move around. I hate being negative because I love to design and build things as well, but I just don't see how this joystick-like device really can replace a mouse. I would suggest designing a "3D mouse" similar to the overpriced ones made by Connexions (their name is something like that). 3D mice would typically be used in tandem with a regular mouse. The 3D mouse would be used to manipulate (zoom, orbit, pan) a 3D model in CAD or 3D modeling software usually with your left hand, while the regular mouse is used to manipulate the user interface (moving the pointer and activating menus and icons) typically eith your right hand. Again, not trying to be too negative, but your joystick design already looks like some of the 3D mice on the market.
Thank you for your detailed comment and honest opinion! I agree that the mouse is a time-tested device, and many still consider it the best solution. However, my goal is to offer a convenient alternative for those who are looking for something more ergonomic and are not afraid to experiment. My design managed to achieve the right balance between precision and speed of movement to make it convenient for everyday use, and the software settings allow you to adjust the sensitivity to your preferences.
@@DIY_Yarik You might want to take a look at some of LGR's input device videos. The Spaceorb and Altra Felix in particular. Those were both, uhhh, deeply flawed devices to put it nicely but they had an interesting way of doing things that you might be able to adapt or reuse somehow.
FWIW what I see that’s reasonably novel here is starting to merge the macro pad pointer control device. I’m not sure who decided that my hot keys all belong on my keyboard and I assure you this isn’t an attempt to rationalize the second numpad that lives between my keyboard and mouse…
Also while I’m cooking: we’re halfway through the twenties and I expected the pointer to be controlled by my retinas by this point.
@@1RandomToaster this exists, see Tobii eye tracking, they say it’s a two-decade product. 👍
There's still a lot to improve in this field, namely pointer precision (because of eye wanderings), and input intent (blinking is slow, drawing patterns with eyes is slow and stress-inducing), you're better off with a mix of solutions than hope for a one-size-fits-all.
Something that may help stabilize your gyro point is letting it sit, nested, on a cone shape inside the device. That way you're rolling the stick around the cone, but the rubber bands keep it taught and in place against the cone. This keeps the stick from floating and bouncing. keeps the gyro centered on a point to minimize errant movement, and you can rest your finger on the stick instead of need to hover over it.
Thanks for the interesting idea! The concept of a cone-shaped base for gyro stabilization does sound reasonable in terms of reducing unwanted oscillations and fixing the center point. However, in my design with a gimbal joystick, the main jitter suppression is already achieved by software filters and the gimbal. Such a system reduces the influence of external oscillations and minimizes inertial shifts. Therefore, adding a cone stabilizer in my case may not bring a significant improvement.
Nevertheless, the approach is interesting and may work great in other implementations!
@@DIY_Yarik I think the cone could help not necessarily where you've already done the leg work on the PC side of oscillations, but on the user interface side. As I haven't used the device I'm not sure, but if you have to "hover" your finger over the joystick to keep from pushing it down into the base of the device that may be fatiguing after extended use.
Additionally, physical redundancy never hurts the software solutions, lol!
Definitely just a random thought suggestion and you really are dialing this thing in so I hope it works out well! New ergonomic input devices are pretty rare these days and something like this could help a lot of people! All the luck!
This needs way more views, impressive work!
Thank you, I am very pleased that you appreciated my work!
That's crazy your mouse broke in a year! I use my mouse daily for probably 8-10 hours, and I'm constantly clicking it and it's still going strong. I have the MX Master 3 so it's quite similar. It's harder to imagine more usage than I've thrown at this thing. What was your usage like? I use mine a ton in 3D modeling, 2D animation, Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. on a 49" ultrawide.
Edit: just finished watching. Cool stuff. I love when people make their own things. I like the ability to easily stop where I am with a traditional mouse, but this is still really cool. Good job!
I have the MX Master 3 as well and after a year it's still going strong. Looking at the way he moves the mouse and states "they wear out with each heavy press" I think he's just placing way too much pressure on the thing. Those skates shouldn't be creased and crushed like they are through normal use.
Agreed, my MX master 2s is about 6 years old and works without a single issue with everyday use.
@@AlfisGarage I never ever saw ANY mouse break. The only mouse I ever saw having any kind of issue were ball mice, and you just had to clean them.
"What was your usage like?" probably normal usage with throwing the mouse once a day into the wall... But I like the creative way of using a gyro sensor...
@@checksum00 agreed, mine has wear pretty much all over the surfaces where I’m touching it, but still works flawlessly. Having said that, I’ve had mouses that the microswitches has failed on.
The MX ERGO S trackball is an amazing pointer. Granted, I have been using thumb trackballs since 93 and I think it is absolutely the most ergonomic design in existence. Your arm and palm are completely relaxed during operation and your thumb and fingers land on the control surfaces completely naturally. Combined with a SpaceMouse, navigating 3D environments is a breeze.
100% agree. Gaming with it is a breeze. And alot of the wear associated with a traditional mouse is completely eliminated. I won't ever go back to a regular mouse.
I switched from thumb trackballs to index/middle finger trackballs. Way better experience, ergonomic-wise. No more thumb joint pains after a couple hours of use.
Also, you can flick it. Flicking with thumb trackballs is somehow awkward and feels unnatural to me.
And since you can flick it, you can game with it. I'm pretty sure i'm faster at moving in games with index/middle finger trackball mices... I'm sorry, MOUSE. I haven't changed this mouse (which i use for everything) for the last 6 years.
@@quasimojo777 Wait... You can game with a trackball mouse? I cannot imagine how that feels tbh I never used one of those mices but somehow got interested
@@exactpause9218 absolutely can. I grew up in the 80's with games like centipede, gallaga, asteroids, missile command (all on tabletop consoles) and on tabletop they used track balls. 2 years ago I noticed how badly I was wearing out surfaces on my arm chair, laptop board, sliding an optical mouse around. Plus the wear I was putting on the mouse itself. I thought, let's eliminate the movement of the mouse around the surfaces and then I remembered TRACKBALL! I researched the hell out of trackball mice and settled on the MX Ergo. Have not looked back since. I've played Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West, Both of the new God of War, Missile Command (for old times sake), Civ VI, X Com 1 and 2, all on Linux/Steam and with no issue from a mouse input perspective.
@exactpause9218 yep! Completely possible. Just takes a little getting used to, but with practice and tweaking, you can be extremely accurate, utilizing the momentum from flicking the trackball and stopping it to turn fast.
man, this is SERIOUSLY cool. I love seeing innovations like this!!!
Thank you, I am very pleased.
Not only is the device lovely but the presentation was superb
Watching it in use (7:09), I don't feel like this would be comfortable for me. It appears to be straining your index finger more, whereas with a traditional mouse, you're just using small movements of your wrist instead of your one finger. But I'm glad you followed through and made something that truly makes *you* happy, very few people have the ability to custom engineer something just for themselves, well done.
I love the intuitive design process :)
I'm not a fan of the mouse myself (unless I'm gaming) i use a trackball because I hate moving around the desk, but the trackball is no mouse. I think there are some haters here. I especially love the copy , paste buttons. Cronos seems like a cool project. Whenever i finish building my 3D printer this is going to be one of the first!!
I really like your take on a joy stick, never thought about using a suspended gyro like that.
The sponge pad under it is actually pretty genius
Awesome build, it's given me some ideas for my own controller. Regarding your switch problems, my older Logitech trackball uses Omron switches with the spring steel lever (also, made in Japan--higher build quality). They're over 20 years old and still going strong.
I'm glad my video inspired you to come up with new ideas! As for Omron microswitches, I completely agree - it's better to buy them from trusted suppliers, since fakes from China are quite common.
This is most interesting. I envy your talents
I love unconventional designs! It keeps things exciting
I completely agree! Unusual solutions always inspire and make the device truly unique.
I love this, since I've spent a great deal of time agonizing over what trackball mouse to get when one of mine suffers a breakdown. I'm not technically inclined enough to feel comfortable switching pieces or building one myself as you have, but it sounds like we have very similar tastes in functionality!
My only suggestion would be, if possible, making it so the volume knob can be pressed as a button for a quick mute/unmute feature. I work in hotels, and being able to quickly mute my video or game when a guest needs something has been handy countless times.
Thank you, I'm very glad that my idea is close to you! 😊 Unfortunately, it won't work to build a button under the volume control - this can lead to rapid wear of the encoder. There are encoder models with a button, but their rotation angle is limited and the feeling is not as pleasant as this endless rotation. But your idea is cool, and I'll think about how to add a quick mute function in the future!
@@DIY_Yarik Bummer, but glad it was considered! Good luck with everything!!
I've gotten so use to touchpads, that I wouldn't mind if I never use a joystick again. I like the idea of designing a pad that has a standard flat pad for general movement and pointing, a separate up/down, and separate left/right pad, and a curved pad for curved left/right and another curved pad for curved up/down.
Brilliant to combine the joystick with a gyro!
I've had my 2S for 5 or 6 years now with 10+ hrs use per day with everything working.
But I do think you've created something pretty interesting.
I really liked to see your workflow, the many prototypes. Was nice to watch :)
Backed the Kickstarter! How is it for gaming? Thanks! 😎☮️
Thank you very much for your support! 😊 I don't play that often myself, but I'll try the device in the classic - Command and Conquer: Red Alert. The controls are smooth and convenient, but in a combat situation, when high speed is required, the pace may be a little lacking. But the Microsoft Flight Simulator device showed itself to be excellent - the controls were as smooth and responsive as possible, which created an amazing experience. I hope you like it too!
intressting concept! It looks just good and i am excited for the KS!
Thank you, we will launch the company today!
Definitely supporting this!
Hey it looks very cool, I would recommend you to have a look at the svalboards palm rest.
Thank you very much! Very interesting device but very expensive, I have never seen it before. I think I have a plan how to improve it and make it much cheaper.
@@DIY_Yarik you are welcomed
You may want to consider making the palm/wrist support an length rail, since not everyone will share your hand size.
But that's just a thought for the Kickstarter aspect of this product.
Bro set out to make a mouse. Ended up reinventing a touch pad.
Appreciate you must have learned a tonne though. Kudos.
I think it's really cool that you did this and also shared so much. I myself am a power user and a fierce gamer (competitive at times), so a joystick (so to say) really would not be anywhere near precise enough or fast enough to keep up with the absolute positioning and rapid movement I need in gaming that is sensitive to millisecond details. In my case I'm rocking a Logitech G604. That being said, maybe some day I might decide I want to build my own mouse, but I might steal parts from this or other Logitech mice to get me what I want. There's also the very curious aspect of mouse movement being an arc and not a straight line left and right, which is probably addressed with on-board firmware in the mouse (SPECULATION). After getting my first real custom keyboard, it's seriously exciting that we now have so many options and the means to build our own devices like this! A mouse of this nature might be useful for me in other parts of my life (video production workstation maybe?). So like, still very cool you did this and shared, and I hope you keep at it! :D
Oh and I move files and windows all around all the time with my G604, I'd prefer it for even that kind of task :P
Thank you for such a detailed and thoughtful comment! I really appreciate hearing insights from a power user and gamer like you. It's fascinating to see how people approach custom devices differently based on their needs. While my device might not fully match the precision demands of competitive gaming yet, I'm thrilled that it sparked your interest and inspired ideas for potential custom builds.
The point about mouse movement being an arc rather than a straight line is very insightful, and you're absolutely right - such nuances are often handled through firmware. As for using this type of device in other workflows like video production, that's exactly one of the areas I had in mind while developing it.
Thanks again for your encouragement - it really means a lot! I hope you keep exploring and building devices that work perfectly for your needs. 😊
This is some impressive work of engineering!
Thank you very much for such a high rating. I'm glad you liked it, in a couple of weeks I'll bring all the details to perfection and I'll be able to post them for downloading
Ah man, the OG performance MX is a very nostalgic mouse. I spent many years using one (swapping for a new ones every few years) because it honestly had the perfect shape. It took me a long time to find another mouse I genuinely liked after that. It just got too expensive having to replace it so often. I went back to logitech some years later when my wrist started acting up because of the MX vertical which is a great mouse. I still use one for work also I also having a gaming mouse that's more tuned to non-work applications.
this is something ive been looking for, a new hardware experience
I've had same issues with clickers in two of my mice. The metal part bent the wrong way and got stuck. To fix it I had to disassemble the clicker and reassemble it. To say that it was a pain to reassemble the clicker is an understatement as you need really fine tools to do it, which I didn't have, so it was a matter of trying to assembling it until it assembled correctly. But both times I was able to fix the clicker and it kept working for years without any issues.
You should change the title to "Creating the Ultimate Office Mouse: The Journey Behind Cronos Control - A Mouse & Trackball Hybrid!"
Looks great! The only improvement I would suggest the wrist rest. It needs to be adjustable for wrist length.
Thank you! This is very useful advice. I have already changed it to be more ergonomic with adjustable length for different hands and angle. I will show it in the next video.
Interesting project. I'm not sure how practical a joystick is when trackpads exist. I think a trackpad with some functionality buttons in easy to reach spots would be a more practical and more comfortable approach. Though I don't build things and am not sure how difficult it would be to implement your own trackpad
It’s an amazing diy and hats off to the dude making what he wants. But Yeah there’s a reason why people don’t like controlling a cursor with PlayStation/xbox controllers. So I think this guy is off on his own island of input devices
I have extensive experience with various input devices: I've tried mice of all kinds, three types of trackballs, and even the Logitech Rechargeable Touchpad T650. However, I found some issues with the trackpad - my finger quickly tires from the surface, and desired actions are often misinterpreted. In my search for something truly comfortable, I decided to create my own mouse. I'm still refining the joystick shape, and in just a couple of weeks, you'll be able to download the model and try it out yourself!
@@DIY_Yarik Very interesting. I'm glad you were able to make something that works best for you. I enjoyed watching the design process :)
I look forward to seeing this develop! Hope you go down the framework route and let it be a user DIY thing with options for different button modules and configurations. I've been seeking a new mouse and keep thinking how much I'd love a mouse that can be pulled apart and have new parts added to give it wireless/Bluetooth/cabled connectivity, also being able to have more robust metal buttons and external panels. A mouse for longevity and modularity.
Thank you! I’m definitely aiming to keep it as open and customizable as possible. I've already shared the device code on GitHub, and I'm working on finishing the setup program for PC, which will also be available as both code and a ready-made app. This way, users can fully configure it to suit their needs.
I'm sure you've already thought of it but Hall Effect joysticks can be more precise and wear less, needing a smaller/nonexistant deadzone if you ever want to revisit this.
There's a version of a controller that I've always wanted to see come to life. 360 movement from an analog stick on a controller for the left hand, and the accuracy of the mouse in the right hand for camera control. Never had the knowledge or skill to make one myself, but also didn't know how to make it work in most games. Would be great to see if it's possible though.
Thank you for sharing your idea! A setup like that - combining 360-degree movement with precise mouse control - sounds incredibly intuitive and versatile.
Bringing ideas like yours to life is exactly what drives projects like mine. While implementing compatibility with a wide range of games can be a challenge.
i have an MX Ergo that ive thrown against the wall twice in 4 years and its still perfect what are you doing to your mice
Have you seen the KeyMouse? I have to wonder if a mouse is truly ergonomic if you have to constantly move your hand to and from a keyboard.
Have the option to replace the joystick with a trackball, as well as making it wireless and we're golden.
I'll be backing that kickstarter in a heart beat!
Interesting idea, I will try to implement a trackball to test this concept, but for now I will say that I have become very accustomed to the joystick after a month and I am not sure that the ball will be better. But I need to try to know for sure. Thanks for the idea.
Exciting project!
Although it doesn’t fully replace a mouse for me in some ways, I’m curious why you chose not to place the joypad under the thumb.
Among all primates, the thumb is the most flexible finger.
Thank you! I had a trackball with thumb control. After a couple of hours of control, my finger joint started to hurt a lot
I'd like to see a mouse or something along those lines that uses the wrist to control left and right movements, and possibly use wrist up and down wrist movement to move forward or backwards. While still keeping the mouse buttons. (Forgot to tell you. Great job on this project it looks really cool.)
Kensingtonton Slimblade Pro is the best mouse I have ever owned. There is a reason that CAD professionals choose a trackball.
First off, it's always a pleasure watch someone design and build a new idea they're passionate about, keep it up!
However, I have a major concern about the ergonomics of this. The hand and wrist are forced backwards quite a bit which is not a natural position for them and will lead to wrist issues with prolonged use. The advantage of a "mouse" that doesn't move is that you can place it in any orientation you want, so I would encourage looking at how you can redesign with that in mind. Try just letting your arm and hand relax down onto your desk and see the position that they sit in at their most relaxed state, and design to try and keep your hand in that position.
Secondly, on ergonomics, several of your controls need quite a reach to work them. This is especially noticeable with the scroll lever; your finger is fully stretched just to get your fingertip on it. The best possible situation is to have all your controls at your fingertip without having to move your fingers at all, so consider how that could be done.
For the joystick, several people have recommended hall effect joysticks already, which to me seems likely to be the best solution, but if you want to continue with your design, then consider trying a very loose fit ball and socket filled with grease to smooth out the motions. The socket would be part of the base, and the joystick would have a ball on the end that sits loosely inside, with the space filled with grease. This would move smoothly but the grease would slightly resist motion and help to prevent vibrations.
Yeah I noticed too that he need to stretch a lot. Honestly it feel that he is really close to something here.
Having scroll use a joystick instead of a wheel is a great idea and could be built into everyday mice, I think it would be an improvement over the standard mouse wheel.
Lots of interesting design. It seems like you could keep the joystick but surround it with curved shape for your palm and other fingers. The buttons and wheels could be placed on the curved shape, so you could operate them without moving your hand.
Thank you for the interesting offer! The design of the device has really come a long way, and the current form is the result of many tests and improvements for maximum comfort and ergonomics. I came to a form that, in my opinion, is the most convenient and allows you to use buttons and wheels without changing the natural position of your hand. But I will definitely take your comment into account for the future, there is always room for improvement!
My favorite version is just from a large external multi-touch mouse fabric pad that a friend made for me which comes with an app for customizing it.
This is amazing, but I have never had a mouse go bad or wear out a mouse and I use one for about 7 years over 6 hours a day so I am so curious how you go through so many mice.
I'm always interested in good ergonomic input devices. I want to give a shoutout to Azeron EU, specifically the Cyro model. It's a vertical mouse with 20 buttons, analog stick etc and fully programmable. Great guy, great support, absolutely awesome product.
Innovation is always good! I do wonder though, how long the rubber bands would last until they stop working as intended? With enough use, I predict they aren't much better than switches on mice..?
Thank you! Those rubber bands were simple office ones. Now I have remade them for 4 rubber bands made of high-quality rubber that will keep its shape for a long time. And this made the joystick move much smoother in all directions. I am making a video about the new changes and I hope to show it to you soon.
You are amazing for putting your plan to motion. Copy and paste, scrolling (love your idea) and volume is pretty convenient. Wrist rest is nice, too.
However (let's pretend I'm customer) I think my finger would hurt as hell after one shift in office. Yes, granted, XBox/PS controllers had joysticks too and I remember to adjust to it for several months. That would be probably okay in your case. The buttons are fine, but mabe make them a little higher. It seems a bit straining to reach them.
Durability - it is sturdy and I love it! Weakpoint are those gum bands. Would vertical springs help on each of four (or eight)sides and something to hold it in center? Just a thought.
I really hope you will finish it to fully functional mouse - and main thing - it will be joy to use for you :)
Thank you for your thoughtful feedback and support! I’m glad you liked features like scrolling and volume control - they were designed with comfort in mind.
Regarding finger tension, it appeared that way because my hand was in an unnatural position for filming. In my upcoming video, I’ll showcase design updates, including replacing the two rubber bands with four high-quality ones for uniform tension.
Your suggestion about vertical springs is intriguing - I’ll explore it as a way to enhance stability and durability.
Thanks again for your input! Feedback like this helps me refine the project and make it even better to use.
Very interesting, I would try one just out of curiosity. I've been using an Elecom EX-G PRO Trackball for years and it's been the best solution for me. After throwing away multiple thumb-controlled trackballs from logitech, also for the same cheap part issues you described here, I ended up with this, so far, great solution. I've grown somewhat adverse to the tired and old mouse design and think that innovation in this area is way too slow due to people's stubborn "lack of" adoption rate to something new and better. Some food for thought, if you do get some traction on this, adding another axis of control similar to a "space mouse" might be something to explore. Good job, will support!
Thank you! I really appreciate the support and your suggestion about adding a third vertical axis, like in a space mouse-that’s an inspiring idea. I’ll start brainstorming an algorithm to integrate it smoothly; it might even be possible to implement without major hardware changes. Definitely something worth exploring!
The Razer Mamba Elite has the best solution for scrolling I've come across. You hold the mouse wheel to the side, left or right, to continually scroll. If you look at a top down picture of it you'll see two arrows to the left and right of wheel indicating this. I've never found another mouse that does this and after having used it I can never go back.
@@mattl204 Razer Basilisk has HyperScroll option also.
It allows for a free-wheel scrolling mode with big wheeling power.
Combined with horizontal scrolling, I can’t go back either. 🥰
(Logitech G502 has an earlier equivalent, but barely usable due to the stopping being less reliable.)
This looks like some tech you’d see in the Aliens universe. Looks awesome man!
This is a pretty cool project and I am glad it works for you. But I don't have any of the problems you have with a mouse; I seem to use a different grip than the three you proposed (my hand is totally relaxed and have no issue reaching any button or scroll wheel), I have never had a mouse break on me that just cleaning wouldn't fix (since the 80s), and I just set my sensitivity high enough that I hardly have to move my wrist to move the cursor to a second screen. It also seems like your cursor moves atrociously slow, you should do a 'cookie clicker' or similar demo to highlight the accuracy and speed of the cursor movement.
Have you considered hall effect sensors instead of gyroscopes? They would be more precise and you can ditch the whole rubber band thing.
I think if you're going to stick with the joystick as a mouse idea you should look into the way that drone pilots use joysticks, then your arm could be placed in a more natural position like using a vertical mouse and have the control of pinching the stick.
Thank you for your advice! Before developing it, I studied different types of joysticks, including those used to control drones. In aviation, super-precision is not always required, whereas for working in 3D programs or other tasks where high precision is important, perfect smoothness of control is necessary. That is why I chose this design of joystick - it is better suited for these purposes.
Most interesting, I might even have a go at building that
It looks great. I'd love to have a go with it.
Did you consider hall effect sticks? No deadzone. And they're nice and simple.
Thank you! In this task it was important to accurately measure angular movements, so I chose a gyroscope, which copes better with determining the location in space than a joystick based on a Hall sensor.
@@DIY_Yarik I see. Fair enough. I'm more sensitive to input latency even for desktop tasks. I haven't tested them side-by-side, but I believe the gyro sensors usually come with a greater lag.
But obviously the beauty of a project like this is that you get to choose and prioritise whatever is most important to you. And I love the fact that so many RUclips makers are doing this sort of stuff now.
FPV gimbals might be nice. Like Hall ones from Radiomaster (AG01 / AG01 Mini) or high quality potentiometer from Jumper (RDC90).
So recently, Keyboards with Hall effect sensors have been coming out. They use magnetic strength to determine keypress inputs instantly. You can adjust how far you press the key before it registers an input and everything. If you're still looking for a way of improving your "mouse" maybe hall effect sensors might be a direction you can look at.
As for my own opinion on this, honestly I can't see myself ever coming close to using this. It uses way to much finger movement to navigate to the different functions and it would quickly become tedious to me after an extended duration of use. To each their own though. If this works for you, then that's all that should matter to you.
It reminds me of those 80s CNC machines control panel which usually features a skirted joint joystick
I think is an amazing device. Great job. did you try putting the wheel in the left side?
If you went that far as basically making your own type of mouse, it would also be a great idea to make it at an "handshake" angle to reduce risk of carpal tunnel syndrome, and it honestly looks like it would be easy to implement
Yes, I did it, changed the hand rest making it ergonomic with a slight tilt. I plan to make another video soon where I will show the changes and also demonstrate it in operation.
How about using a logitech thumb trackball? Perfect mouse for me, been using them for years. If you want speed, flick the ball and let it roll. It may not be quite as fast as a regular mouse, but its close. And they're only $40 iirc. I have a stockpile of old ones that I use for parts when necessary.
Good on you for designing something that works for you.
Personally, I can't really see a use for this in my own day to day.
I use my index for the scroll/mmb and keep my index and middle fingers on lmb and rmb, and use a spacemouse for navigation in 3d software.
My keyboard is a 65% and fully programable with layers so I can mirror further to reach keys, and a num pad to another layer for ease.
Mouse is a wireless g502 x, I'm not sure what they use in master mice, but these use optical switches.
I've tried a lot of mice, and this is my favorite by far.
I do disagree with a joystick no matter it's range being quicker or more precise with a mouse.
But if it works for you, cheers.
Average track pad: I’m about to ruin this man career
Jk awsome work
But serious, a software to interpret a trackpad as an joystick would be awsome, so you don’t drag your finger stand it move and drag againg as it’s boring slow, you just drag and how the direction.
Would be interesting as it cannot have spring or lever failure, and can substitute you middle joystick
This is really awesome. Made me think of the Space Mouse by 3dconnexion. I'm a big fan of the trackballs with a thumb ball like logitech's ergo m575.
Thank you! The Space Mouse by 3Dconnexion is a great piece of inspiration-I really admire its unique functionality. I can see the appeal of trackballs; they offer excellent precision with minimal movement. My goal is to combine similar ease of use with more ergonomic support. Appreciate the feedback!
to reduce cursor jerking have the tilt input enabled by capacitative touch and disabled on release.
Can you make a hip mounted version that works with an AR type heads up? I need a new cyber deck to hack some corpo’s black ice. Thanks Choom.
From an ergonomics perspective this has good and not so good aspects. The wrist support is very good, additionally the fingers are in a more relaxed position, which is great!
However, controlling a joystick with a finger might hurt after a while. It’s because the finger’s muscles for sideways motion are weak compared to the gripping and stretching. Traditional mouses use arm and wrist muscles for the movements. So, maybe there’s some room improvement there. Or if it’s not an issue for you then it’s not a problem of course! Though, wild thought, maybe you could use a joystick or wheel either your thumb for horizontal movement, and a joystick/wheel for vertical movement. Kind of like the scroll wheels, but for cursor movement 😂
it seems like you need more of a ergo mouse like the sideways ones.
That one doesn't look like it would actually be fast or precise, in say, a gaming setting, though for programming it could be fine.
Mice for precision on a gaming level need to be able to snap into place which joysticks just can't do as dynamically.
My Mx Master 2 broke shortly after I bought it, but I took it apart and fixed it. It's been fine for the last 5 years.
If you can find one and want to deal with another standard mouse for ideas try finding a Logitech G600. I have been using this for years, and since they don't sell them anymore I have backups. I find the ergonomics nice since it actually has 3 finger rests on the top, and having over a dozen programmable buttons on it makes it exceptionally versatile because of the different profiles you can have for every program you want to use it with. I also use it in conjunction with the Logitech G13 (something they also stopped making), this adds far more function.
If you are set on it being stationary I would highly suggest moving the joystick to the thumb position, this frees up all your other fingers for other tasks and could make it so you aren't forced to stop movement when you are using most of the other buttons.
Also for the joystick you've probably already thought of it, but just in case you haven't, you might check out "hall effect" joysticks to get rid of dead zones.
Because Logitech has stopped making the products I highly love using currently I might also have to go down this route at some point. Best of luck to you with this project.
Hi! You could also use a joystick from reputable manufacturer (ALPS foe example) and avoid the problems of deadzone and wobble
alps suck and their products is inferior, TBH if you have problem with deadzone do not use solution that require a lot of dead zone
@StrielokPLsz I can only compare ALPS with noname Chinese joysticks, and there it's far better. What do find them inferior to?
@@osmanpasha_diy they are inferior becouse with persistance of madman they are refusing transfer from carbon to cermet/polymer/hall/anything reasonable, carbon based traces allow you to make any resistance with any and even dumb characteristics like infinite spinning, on mass and for cheap becouse traces are literally printed by stupid printer from ink, and alps is using that to spam totally random products, but becouse carbon traces are...carbon based they are disintegrating and washer is carrying blob of oil with dust from constatly disintegrating tracers, that means your resistance in point is always different when you move back to it, and wait, there is more! usually they have 300-1000 turns of life time while polymer have 10k minimum and i bet, PS5 pad has a standard 1k carbon traces in potentiometers becouse some beancounter didn't allow to buy 10x more expensive (2 vs 20cent) special "heavy duty" wear resistent type.
there is also one more extra problem EVERY time when someone is making device with me they just have to choose potentiometer with the dumbest characteristic like 69Ω triple gang, with stop on right total custom characteristic in shape of butterfly, manufactured in limited quantity, available by unknown reason for nobody know how long with outragous price, becouse someone was bored and found something "interesting" on the internet...
What a wild design!
PS if you want long lasting switches then look in to what switches Razer Viper has
Beautiful!
I like the idea because I use a Dygma Defy keyboard and an X Keys L trac trackball. Would be nice to have something that makes a bit more sense working together. Both really good devices but moving your hands between the two is kind of odd
Oh my... you must an aggressive clicker to reduce the MTBF of those microswitches so much. 😉
Cool design. Are you still using your DIY HRV??
Thank you, yes the HRV still works in the house without any breakdowns.
Very cool Project! I have also considered building something pretty similar. Have you ever considered using Hall Effect Joystics? Or were they in the video and I missed it when you said it in the video?
Thank you! In this task it was important to accurately measure angular movements, so I chose a gyroscope, which copes better with determining the location in space than a joystick based on a Hall sensor.
@@DIY_Yarik I see. Thank you for your reply!
Personally, when it comes to long term repeatable and consistent precision, any gyroscopes I've used made me hate gyroscopes.
I really don't understand how you came to the conclusion to use a gyroscope, but I also would want to try one out because the idea feels almost alien to me.
Can you show us some performance benchmark for this mouse? Play some Aim Lab or something like it?
I'm currently working on a new video where I'll showcase some design improvements aimed at greater comfort. Of course, I'll also demonstrate how the mouse performs in various applications and even a bit in gaming.
If you really want this to be a long lasting mouse I would say maybe look into using something thats easier to buy in bulk or more customisable like keyboard switches- I think a nice low profile tactile one could still function well as a mouse input and can be hot-swapped, alternitavely I would suggest maybe look into designing an optical switch system- that way the only user servicable part after creation would be the physically touched part and any springs used
I think you were onto something with the mouse/plate solution to reduce desk travel.
You could use hall effect gimbals for PS/Xbox, it costs only couple euros.
Though it likely will have the same stiffness.
I tried using the original joystick from a PlayStation 2, but it didn’t work out well. Unfortunately, all mechanical joysticks I've tested have a significant dead zone and require too much force at the start of movement, which makes precise control difficult.
@@DIY_Yarik that's the point of hall effect gimbals, it has no dead zone. Though I've never used this cheap ones, it costs less than a single ams IC.
@@DIY_Yarik btw, if you're going to sell it, I bet people who do not have perfectly leveled desk will make complaints against gyroscope.
How about using a trackpad for control and make a ring like the Kensington expert for scrolling?
Very cool project.
Very nice design. Congratulations.
Sincerely Robert
💯💯💯 is product reminds me the consoles from the 80s and 90s Mercedes and BMWs like w201 and e30
you reinvented IBM TrackPoint
In this configuration I think a trackball makes so, so much more sense than a stick. The rest seems nice.
great mouse! really weird to me though-how are you breaking mice all the time?
I see your Logitech MX got a lot of... dirt or something... inside it. Perhaps that's why?
What are you doing to your mice? I've had both the original MX and the first MX Master and I got many, many years of all day use out of them without ever having to replace any switches. I got 5 years out of the original before replacing it for entirely aesthetic reasons. I've had my first gen Master since 2017 with no problems...
great job
instead or regular joystick or accelerometer based movement sensor you should try hall effect sensor