Why You Should be Disappointed about Bombardier
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- Bombardier rail is dead... here's our thoughts on the news.
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Reece, you should do a video on the Thameslink programme in South East Britain. It was technically Londons first crossrail.
It's private, did you download it?
I hope you look at this video now and say to all the haters I told you I bought the stock when it is very very low and I'm glad that I've kept all of it and I'm going to hold on everybody shitted on Bombardier everybody said the stock was s*** this is going to the Moon they have nine different contracts with nine different countries the biggest order just came in from China United Kingdom need them New York City Transit fire
In Singapore we are replacing 3 generations of metro trains with Bombardier that’s like 100 ish 6 car trains, and honestly I was and still am excited. I find bombardier trains long lasting and quite high quality, so it’s really a shame that they are no longer a thing. I hope Alstom keeps the bombardier designs as one of their products
Biggest bombardier order, 30 years of support for these new trains, we'll see how alstom manage this
Thought Siemens might have had an advantage over Bombardier since only the former has built some of the rolling stock that're going to be replaced
To be honest i love Innnovia 300 and c951, those models looks cool!
Alstom has decided to keep many of Bombardier's products as replacements for some of their own products. For example, Mitrac is the propulsion, motor, and auxiliary power system product line going forward compared to Onix/OptOnix. Bombardier bogies are now standard over the Alstom products. The monorail and airport shuttle systems also remain since Alstom didn't have their own products previously. Plus Alstom kept Bombardier designed Innovia metro and Flexity light rail vehicles in the line. That is good to see.
This is extremely upsetting because they produced great commuter rail coaches and Superliner cars for Amtrak. RIP Bombardier, you will be missed.
Bombardier made NYC’s R62A and R142 cars, they’re very reliable trains.
Bombardier ain't great for European standards.
@@Srype5 in Sweden, Bombardier trains have proven themselves to be much more reliable than the alternatives from CAF, Hitachi and even Alstom. In fact, SJ used to refuse Alstom (and Västtrafik still refuse Hitachi due to the M32 failures) to even bid for their new trains because of how badly the X40 performed. Siemens have only produced the Vectron for Sweden which seem to perform well to be fair, and Stadler have just entered the market but have major teething issues with the ER1 causing cancellations for peak hour trains.
Fun Fact: The victoria Line trains on the London Underground where made by Bombardier, they are very good and will probaly last for the next 20-40 years. Sad to see the iconic brand gone
editt: i changed 'juibille line' with 'victoria line'
They were built by Alstom and Met Cam, not Bombardier. But they are fantastic trains though :)
Trains should last more than 40+ years, and the only thing that should remove then from service is them getting outdated. Any train that only lasts 20 years is garbage. Although you did say 20 more years and I think they went into service in 2007 or so.
You're either talking about the 2009 Victoria Line or S stock on the Circle/District/Met/H&C lines.
@@thetd139 yes i ment victoria line
@@pwhnckexstflajizdryvombqug9042 the r110a and b lasted like 7 years. They were ntt passenger service test trains
Bombardier had a lot of costly problems in central europe lately, most known to me are the swiss FV Dosto (RABe 502), German IC2 Twindexx and Austrian Talent 3 EMUs
We had a number of problems with our latest trams. Bogie and frame cracks, etc. I am however sad to see the go. We no longer have a Canadian rail transportation manufacturer. Bombardier decided to focus on corporate jets.
Bombardier's acquisition has got people asking too here in Australia. They've got local manufacturing in Melbourne and made our latest trams (based on the Flexity) and also the inter-city Vlocity and despite criticisms of them have actually performed very well. Wondering how things will go going forward
Ye and make the newest rolling stock in Brisbane
Apparently, they are still manufacturing new trains here in qld?
Alstom: _"Bombardier Transportation?_ *Never heard of them."* 🐸☕
You're very passionate and it's much appreciated. We have so little of it in Canada... Weather it be Nortel, Bombardier, Black Berry, Aluminum giants or forestry Canadians seem to love to hate being to big on the world stage, manufacturing is beneath us and so we we seem to limp along but we're collectively happy if we do ok... If people only knew the work, engineering, and history that went into say just the design of the wings in the bombardier jets... and then, it just sold off... and Canadian s are their with a big Good Riddance ! Our Government is so passive. Anyway, great Video I love that you had the courage to talk about the issue. I may remind you however that Bombardier is not dead yet, it's sold off a lot of it's divisions but a whole new world is emerging... might they take up the gauntlet again and invent yet another "skidoo"? Perhaps a man carrying drone? The first Canadian electric car, or submarine... Canada must be good at something, and able to stick with it !
It sad to see Bombardier go. They have made really great rolling stock like the Bi-Levels and the Multi-Levels.
In Porto, Portugal’s 2nd largest city , bombardier trains are the most common in the metro system. Very good looking and clean 👌🏾
Hello Henrique... if it is clean, it is due to the good maintenance of the train by local company and for the good looking, you need good designer but not necessarily good engineers. That's why in Lisbon, they have chosen the company STADLER. As you may know, STADLER will also supply some of the regional lines in Portugal with Flirt trains. STADLER is a growing company with very good products.
The Stockholm Metro C20 rolling stock which is my favorite metro rolling stock was built by Bombardier. Loved both the interior and exterior design of the trainsets, the fact that they were built during the mid 90s yet maintaining such high-end modern design still amazes me to this day
Along with it's Romanian cousin, the BM2. 😉
The C20 trains are still some of the nicest designed even 20+ years later.
100% agreed Reece. I actually love our Flexities here in Waterloo and much prefer them to Ottawa's Alstoms.
Of course, That is becaus the Ion and Metrolinx Tram is tailor to Canadian climate. It is pretty much a new design compare to their European counterpart. And the bloody things is built out of Stainless steel!
I was really shocked when I heard that Bombardier was about to be sold to Alstom. First, of course, because I then worry about the Bautzen and Görlitz sites. Görlitz supplied the world with double-deck vehicles. When nobody in the world had this on their screen. They are highly specialized there and with better quality management, things will get better again. Bautzen as the location for trams would also be a huge loss. The trams from Bautzen were always great. We in Dresden have had it since the 90s and we were the first to have the Flexcity with 45 m, which was developed with our transport company. Yes, Bombardier completely slept through the modernization at its locations and yes, vehicles are delivered with fault lists as long as the operating instructions. But they were also equipped with innovations. Will I miss Bombardier? Yes.
My mum comes from Montreal and she goes on and on about how it’s the pride of city and some of her friends worked for it
There's no love lost between me & Bombardier's 1800s for Boston's Red Line. I'm mourning Pullman-Standard!
One of the reasons Bombardier was so hated in Canada was because it was a Quebec company with a French Canadian name that kept getting money. It's just such a shame, they had some great products (especially Montreal's AZUR metro train) Sigh. RIP Bombardier, some of us were very proud of you
@@jfmezei yes I’m aware but that’s not how media reported it and how Canadians reacted to it. They don’t see facts, they react emotionally and it becomes a perception that a Quebec company is getting special treatment (even tho it’s one of the greatest innovators in our history). The media need to do a better job reporting facts in this country
@@amyl.9477 of course not EVERYONE thinks like that but all you had to do was read comments and vitriol from English Canada toward Bombardier. And Toronto trains were built in Thunder Bay... even your reasons for hating them were uninformed.
@@DiscoverMontréal why do English Canadians hate French Canadians
In Germany most bombardier products will still be produced
You're right but they will be labelled Alstom :)
@@jakobachenrainer Or Stadler. :) They had to sell Talent 3 (I Believe) to Stadler, otherwise, Alstom would have grown too big.
There is actually few to no Siemens trains in my area of Germany. ICE may be Siemens, but all the regional trains are either bombardier twindexx or Alstom trains. But I like the Alstom trains a lot.
Von wem sind die 425
@@burgerpommes2001 also in Norddeutschland siehst gar keinen von denen, nur Stadler und Bombardier/Adtranz
@@burgerpommes2001 Bombardier, Adtranz, DWA, Siemens
Geb dir Recht, die meisten Alstom-Züge sind klasse. Weiß nicht wo du wohnst, aber sei froh, dass du es nicht mit Siemens zu tun hast. Die 462 sind furchtbar, ich weiß nicht, wie die 30 Jahre durchhalten sollen
Bombardier's Delhi fleet is one of the best. Had a hard time wrapping my head around the complaints against Bombardier.
Exactly, they even won contracts for Kanpur, Agra and Mumbai metro line 4.
They are going to supply Train sets for RRTS too.
@@sparshmaan yess
They are trash in the USA and Canada tho
@@carsonplayz5975 Or maybe the authorities in north america make it impossible to run a profitable infrastructure company and forces bad products. There must be a reason why a company fails in one place and suceeds in many others.
Wow I am so used to see Bombardier trains here in Berlin... actually the local transit Trains (subways and trams) are extremely reliable and had very few (or actually none I remember) problems, even in the beginning. Even if their regional Trains had many problems I will remember them as a great company!
You should see the problems Bombardier has in Switzerland with their new double decker Trains
The S-Bahn Hamburg had a lot of problems in 2019 because if the new ET490.
Once Bombardier finished London’s S stock, it all went down hill.
Their financial troubles started when Boeing went capitalist assholes and tried to kill the C-series plane by exploiting the system to instill a 1000% tariff on Canadian plane parts arriving on US soil, but failed and the plane is now owned by Airbus. Bombardier's messy management never recovered from that event.
When I heard of this, I grow a distinct hatred of US exploitation in the market economy and Boeing in particular, and what I consider being my home province's apparent incapacity of producing brilliant people despite history proving me wrong.
Yeah, I have problems xd
@@dontgetlost4078 It was a 292 to 300% tariff but yeah, Boeing turned full a hole mode and their reputation only got worse after the 2 MAX crashes. I am still upset because Boeing is one of the main reasons Bombardier went downhill. They had potential but Boeing wanted to stop that.
@@dontgetlost4078 Nah they never should've started the C-serie project in the first place. Developing a new plane from scratch is an extremely expensive and risky proposition, an endeavour clearly too big for a company of Bombardier's relatively modest size.
@@vejet you right but it’s a risk you got to take and now Airbus 220( CJet) is going to eat up the niche market between a regional jet and A320 and B737M8
@@vejet On the other hand, the C-series is one of the best airplanes available at the moment, and of all the smaller manufactureres who tried to create new airplanes in recent years, Bombardier was still one of the more succesful.
From being the train sets supplier for India's first mordern metro train system of Delhi to recently developing new semi high speed train sets for India's first Rapid Rail Transit System, Bombardier Transportation was and is a part of all.
something people also shouldn't forget is that for europe bombardier became a large player by a takeover of adtranz, which basically was every rolling stock manufacturer in northern europe, accept for siemens, which were a lot. the fact that bombardier is no longer means there's even less competition in european rail manufacturing. imo that might even give crrc more foot ground in europe, which was one of the things the merger was supposed to prevent.
This is the reason, why alstom has to sell the Talent. It is used in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands and other regions. It is one of the most common lightrail train in Germany. But it has many problems. They didnt even produced all Talent 2 Trains and the Talent 3 is 2 Years to late and they haf problems with the registration in many Countries. They had Problems with the Software. This problems also appeared on other products like the Twindexx and the DoStos. Siemens and Stadler are interested in the Talent.
I think Bombardier's issues have been and are a poor top-level down management system that has corrupted the company. The Bombardier family still has significant influence and decision-making pull that has led to poor decisions, and an overstretching of the company financially which led to the situation it's in now. We see how successful the C-Series planes have been but with Boeing and monetary issues, mass production was never a viable option. Many of the frames/bodies for Toronto's LRV were produced in their plants in Mexico and then shipped to Thunder Bay (and eventually Kingston) that had to be completely refurbished because their welding and wiring were poor at best. Cutting costs to get the order and then having to basically double the work because the work was done so poorly. It's a higher-level management issue that filtered down to every level of the company and caused issues. Even the strike that delayed the LRV's was partly caused by the poor management at the plant. As a result of poor culture and poor program performance delivery; its highly likely that the Thunder Bay plant will be cut as part of Alstom's restructuring when it comes.
There is a common criticism about another transportation manufacturing company (one of Bombardier's rival) that the company's poor decision making was due it being run by accountants, rather than engineers. From what I've seen from working in the industry, this is true of every major company in the market, they just have different names.
@@shangqijian6655 Boeing? I dunno how much Bombardier mirrors this, being two largely separate aviation / train divisions
Couldn't have said it better myself.
To those that say that Bombardier was a bad company, they should check the quality issues on the REM cars from Alstom. Going from esthetic issues to the electrical dangers...
Those New York City subway cars they built which was the R179's (between 2016-2018) destroyed their company (I live in NY). Too bad though as they also built New York City subway cars R62A (from 1983-1986) and R142 (from 1999-2002).
The R62a was one of the better subway cars. Look at the R42 and the 75 foot cars.
@@danielsamuels5857 as a New Yorker the R42 and much of St Louis produced cars never had the best quality stainless steel and many didn’t age as well
It's is ashame as Bombardier had very good products and good ideas. The C-Series in the aviation and the FV-Dosto in Switzerland in railway sector are good example. Good designe, some good innovations but lot of delays. C-Series had a better success with Airbus and the success is there. In Switzerland as in other countries, STADLER is a growing company with many reliable solutions from the Metro/Tramay to High Speed solutions with its new Smile.
The fact is that the problems with the Flexity Outlook streetcars were the TTC's fault. The Flexity design was not suitable for Toronto's tracks yet the TTC pretty much told Bombardier "make it work or you lose the contract, by the way you have a very tight deadline". So Bombardier had no choice but to shoehorn in joined axle trucks (due to the single point switches) and a power system that could function with the lower power supply from trolley poles (due to Toronto's outdated wire system). This also led to the screeching that has caused the problems on the 504A. And not to mention that Bombardiers suppliers cheaped out during the order, riveting parts instead of welding them.
But still if any company were to acquire Bombardier, Alstom is probably the best one seeing as they have already worked together before.
The bombardier ART-II was my childhood during the 2000s, though they were noisy, they were sleek and nimble, they were even considered cutting edge of Kuala Lumpur's Transport system. Good times...
If you had followed the saga of Bombardier CS-100/300, now known as Airbus A220, you will know it all started with the mismanagement by the family. I even wonder if they wanted to liquidate the company, make a quick buck and call it a day.
Ridiculous how Bombardier messed up on both trains and planes. They sunk so much money into the C Series and what happened screwed over both Boeing and Bombardier (and both are responsible) and it went all in favor of Airbus. And that comes on top of the Boeing MAX fiasco. Falling asleep on the job while bean counting also can come back to haunt those responsible. Now Airbus and Siemens are eating everyone alive, and soon CRRC. Things like this don’t just happen naturally.
@@ecoRfan Its tempting to blame Boeing and the way they used their power and influence to get the US government to block the C-series deal as Boeing being evil but as someone who is in favor of a genuinely free market, its impossible to ignore the fact that Bombardier was offering the C-series at a price below what it cost to make and that's unfair to sellers of competing aircraft. (much like how its unfair for subsidized European olive oil or tinned tomatoes or pasta or whatever to be sold into Australia and put pressure on local producers of the same products).
@@jfwfreo Reminds me of Malaysia & Indonesia (the world's 2 biggest palm oil producers) arguing that the EU's ban on palm oil is not due to the environment but due to protectionism (since EU supposedly plans to replace palm oil with EU-grown rapeseed)
@@jfwfreo but boeing didnt have a competing product to the c series, did it? its smallest aircraft is in a different class then bombardiers. so much so that soon after airbus aquired the c series, boeing went desperate mode and tried to buy the e jets from embraer, bombardiers biggest competitor (and thankfully the deal wasnt completed)
@@jfwfreo Selling bad performing aircraft below production cost is a tactic which isn't unkown to anyone in aviation. If you want a genuine free market with fair competition, aviation is not where to look for it as the effective duopoly between Airbus and Boeing has screwed over many companies, even Airbus and Boeing themselves.
Just look at the Long Island Rail Road here in New York, Bombardier produced over 800 M7 cars for the LIRR then another something like 200 M7A more for MNRR. Sure the suspension is squeaky and make a lot of noise but its still a quality product... They will be missed
The next Canadian Rapid Transit rail vehicle...A New Flyer bus body mated to refurbished, decommissioned flatbed freight train cars and equipped with TM4 electric traction motors.
Bombardier should definitely open source all of their designs
This, I agree with
Even of they _wanted_ to, they can't anymore.
Maybe I'm just being nostalgic but some of my fondest memories as a child are of taking the Bombardier ART200 on the Kelana Jaya line in Kuala Lumpur with my dad. Sad to see them go
Hey!!!BOMBARDIER manufactured ATP to Rio de Janeiro !!!!
Extremely disappointed. Such a heartbroken thing
I just can't get my head around: Why on earth the Canadian Government didn't do anything to save Bombardier Transportation (to a lesser extent Bombardier Aerospace)? They are not just manufacturer of Rolling Stocks, they are essentially a high value/ highly strategic company!! I can't seem to find any good reason/excuse for Canadian Government for not saving Bombardier? If a company of same scale & importance in my country would had been in any sort of trouble the Government would had done everything to save it at any cost. Honestly it's stupidity on part of Canadian Government for whatever the reason could be for them to not act. Btw an Indian here!🙏🏼
Loved the video & seriously gonna miss Bombardier!!
Great video. Your presentation skills are excellent. Did you use a teleprompter to deliver this information or from memory?
I did it off the cuff, wasn’t preplanned
@@RMTransit I'm very impressed.
Thanks!
Bombardier will be missed.
Most definitely. They helped lirr with the M7's and are still in service to this day in good working order. The M7's are 24 years old this year!
Just before the aquisition deal was announced, Bombardier Aventra trains started operation on London Overground. On paper, it was the best suburban/regional EMUs in the world at that time (Siemens Mireo are not in full commercial operation yet) and still is among the best. I have taken that train and I like it. It's so sad to see the loss.
If only the DfT allowed them to have comfortable seats (same on the TfL Rail Aventras) but that's not Bombardier's fault. Sad to see them go.
*sad T1 noises*
The localised solutions of Bombardier are particularly noteworthy. In Melbourne Australia they created a three large intersecting of trams called the E class (of note the last of the E2 being delivered just before the merger), the best trams of the last decade in melbourne, and the vlcoity train, a regional three cab train produced nowhere else, were the key to the Vic govt 'Regional Rail Revival' continuing connection of regional cities to Melbourne, even if the seats where not that comfortable or the interiors where basic.
Sad to see the merger, definitely should of been the reverse.
This is akin to the Australian Federal Government allowing Holden, Australias last remaining car manufacturer to close down after it declined to continue subsidies which are just a fraction of which it eagerly gives to the fossil fuel industry despite the fossil fuel industry employing a fraction of the number of people, & Australia getting negative benefit from its huge gas exporting industry. With Australia having to IMPORT gas from overseas despite being the largest Natural Gas exporter in the world. With the corrupt crony capitalists in government opting to give the gas away for virtually free, so the gas companies (& major political donors) can pocket the maximum profit. (& the crony capitalists & gas industry insiders & lobbyists in government receive massive kickbacks & boosted share profits, or future consultancies).. Back to allowing Holden to close.. All despite the fact that Holden was a major technology developer for much of the General Motors rolling stock globally & that it facilitated around 300,000 direct & indirect jobs, now mostly decimated. Which would have allowed to massively speed up the manufacture of EVs using the existing facilities & skill set. From which Federal Politicians have consistently refused to subsidise plans by major international companies to build EVs using the existing holden plant. I think alot of it also comes to Neoliberal ideology destroying the manufacturing sector to further weaken Unions.
As for Bombardier, what an absolute shame. The Bombardier E Class Trams in Melbourne are by far the best on the network. The Alstom models have had a tonne of problems & rattle alot more than the E Class ones do. The E Class not only look much better, & are more solid, but due to the insistence of the Victorian Labour Government, were manufactured in an agreement with Bombardier & the Victorian Government, in Victoria by Victorians. While the Metro Trains, since the Daniel Andrews government have been as well, it remains to be seen what will happen of the Tram procurement moving forward, & what will happen with the ongoing order of E Class Trams. Whether it will be continued as is by Alstom, in Victoria. Or whether production will be moved to India. All of this is just another example of why manufacturing in the Anglo world, & all the jobs with it, has been destroyed next to Europe & obviously China. Our greedy & short term return obsessed politicians refuse to subsidise industry that doesn't benefit their own portfolios directly. With such ideology, China deserves to take over the West because they actually subsidise industry, as obviously also does Germany & Sweden, whereas the Anglo American-centric world squanders it, & all the jobs it creates, in pursuit of short term profits that only benefit very few people.
All of which is relevant to Infrastructure funding as well, & why Australia, despite having had the largest mining boom in the history of the world, & a huge gas boom currently, doesn't have even one rail line that can go over 200kph, let alone a high speed one. And why America, the richest country in the world with the biggest economy in the world continuously for 70 years still doesn't even have one proper High Speed Rail line. Short term profit motive over wider societal gain. Same reason Bombardier, like Holden, was allowed to die.. The opposite of the motive behind China's High Speed Rail network, & that across Europe..
It was a source of Canadian pride for sure, sad how the company was so mis-managed that they had to do this. A good lesson for business schools in the future.
Yeah
I think most of the hate for Bombardier is actually hate for the government. Because there was this close relationship between the federal government and bombardier for so long, all the people who hate the federal government, for whatever reasons, tend to hate Bombardier by reflex, without knowing anything about the company.
Sweden makes it's own trains, fighter jets, Taiwan makes jets and now submarines.. Canada: hewers of wood and drawers of water.
..guess it's because we're a country of immigrants!
A couple of years after the merger with Alstom, Bombardier solutions are now standard in the Alstom product line. For example, Mitrac propulsion/auxiliary power and the Flexx bogies have replaced Alstom legacy products. Flexity LRV and Movia HRV products have also been kept to have a comprehensive vehicle lineup. Although orders in San Francisco and NY (R179) had early issues, those have been corrected and the fleets are running well now. In fact, I have ridden on a R179 and Toronto Rocket train before. Both ride very well, especially on bad track.
Each project will have its issues and Bombardier did have its own issues in some cases. However, they did produce some very good rolling stock over the years. I view them as a respected company in rail transit for what they did. I'm also glad Alstom has kept and integrated many of Bombardier's solutions into their own lines where it made sense to do so.
The problem with Montreal based Bombardier being acquired by Alstom is that fewer trains will be built in Canada. A new Bombardier contract with Saudi Arabia, South Africa or Malaysia will result in trains being manufactured in France. The only trains that will be manufactured in Canada will be trains specifically made for Canada such as Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal Subway. Why? Because any import-export manufacturing company has to deal with local patriotism and obtain subsidies. There is no incentive whatsoever for Bombardier to manufacture trains ordered by Saudi Arabia in Canada. Alstom will make the decision where their trains are built and that means (with few exceptions) build them in France. If Bombardier had been taken over by Siemens their export orders would be filled in Germany.
we have new orders for the Bombardier Innovia Metro 300, 27 or 29 new trains for KJL
Bombardier couldn’t be saved, their management is what ultimately destroyed them. Sourced too many crappy parts in hopes of cost savings, and ended up more problematic. The province threw more money at them by buying additional 36 rail cars, and Bombardier still cut 200+ jobs. Execs ended up pocketing the money. The final nail in the coffin was needed
somebody didn't watch the video (:
@@randomcontentgenerator2331 I wanted to highlight BOM's management destroyed them. The government did what they could by clearly entering into bad deals to save jobs, MX didn't need those cars, jobs still ended up being cut anyways. The whole thing is rotten to the core, our government cant keep throwing money into that pit.
I work at bombardier/ Alstom been there over 20 yrs in Thunder Bay. I am a painter and pretty much painted or have touched up almost every car built in last 20 yrs. Great company to have worked for no idea what alstom is all about to new. The best part about building the cars here in Ontario. We have had to do a lot of rework and repairs so much easier when we are next door. I sure hope to be able to keep painting these cars. Until I retire they are a nice car the bilevels and the lrv and yes subway cars are plain but they are under ground
Man this new CEO basically did vulture capitalism in front of you guys. Trudue should have nationalize it
My favourite tram type here in Bremen, Germany is from Bombardier (GT8N-1). They run with rock solid reliability. But the newest trams here are Siemens Avenio / GT8N-2, which are quite nice too. Also, the (from my experience) most reliable regional train provider in the area uses Bombardier double-decker trains, which I appreciate even more since I watched that metra video!😆
Amtraks new rolling stock for the NEC is made by Alstom,
And yes today's standard shouldn't be applied to the past.
The Bombardier BiLevel (Mk VI and Mk II) coaches on Caltrain (also used by GO Transit and the West Coast Express) completely revitalized the service compared to the old clunky Nippon Sharyo Gallery coaches. The new Stadler KISS cars look to be really good too (with electrification), but it's sad that we're losing Bombardier.
Bombardier with Alstom helped to create the HHP-8 locomotives and the Acela Express high speed trainset, for the Northeastern United States.
C'mon it's easy to understand why Bombardier gets a lot of hate. It's simply because it's a french-Canadian company. You have to understand that Québec in general gets a lot of bad rep simply for being different from the rest of the country. So it being a Quebecois company was a final nail in the coffin.
absolutely garbarge. It has nothing to do with Quebec. sorry! It's time Quebec stops using that argument as an excuse. Company mismanagement - both in Europe and in Canada. (Yes i said Canada and not french-Canada!)
Bombardier Transportation failed through systematic mismanagement. In Europe, they kickstarted into the market around 20 years ago by taking over Talbot, ADtranz & DWA with their promising high-quality product lines:
- TALENT regio trains (Talbot)
- TRAXX locomotives (ADtranz)
- DoSto doubledeckers (DWA Görlitz)
Initially, they made a killing by selling these good products. However, they massively failed at developing and producing good replacements, because they chose to subsidize their aircraft business by cutting important corners in development and production, reliably dooming their reputation.
1) DB IC2 (Traxx AC2 + Dosto 2010) used a proven reliable and successful formula to harvest an unbelievably bad product:
- DoSto 2010 bodyshell failure (redesign cost multiple years)
- DoSto wheel oscillations at higher speeds, unlike the previous generation (2003) with more sophisticated bogies
- design failure of system architecture („train‘s brain in control car“ & unreliable software, still causing highly frequent breakdowns even years after introduction): almost all of the system engineering & coding was offshored and continues to fail to deliver what it should. You cannot even lead an occupied train with the locomotive if the cab car failed, because you cannot lock the doors properly anymore then
=> A product that was supposed to become a fast stop-gap solution by taking a reliable regional train’s locomotive & passenger cars with upgraded interior comfort for intercity trips ended up being massively delayed, performing worse than its own predecessor products and at a greater cost than more sophisticated vehicles capable of more than 100 mph.
2) Talent 2: several years worth of production had to be stabled because these products were not even approveable. The first few units (e.g. that from the Innotrans launch) even had to be scrapped and replaced because the bodyshells were that bad. Cabs are so badly insulated and heated that drivers must be provided with specially winterproof underwear. Talent 2 trains are also incompatible with each other unless they were built for exactly the same operation network. They also continue to be unreliable with frequent major software issues plaguing every single batch built. This is a truly horrendous product compared to a Stadler FLIRT.
3) SBB FV-DoSto: delayed by multiple years, over budget, and still unreliable after years of testing and bugfixing. Also: comfort goals were not met (SBB IC2000 is better).
Do you begin to see a pattern here? This mismanagement deserves to be hated. It’s a shame about all the talented employees and their workmanship, all doomed by incompetent management.
I think you missed the point of the video
Bombardier did such a great job with the trains
What do you think is the future of the TTC Flexity streetcars? I would assume that TTC would prefer that when they order more cars, they are the same model as the existing ones so that they don't have to set up another maintenance operation with different tool, etc. Will Alstom offer their own Citadis models to TTC, or will Alstom agree to bring out the old Bombardier blueprints and build those trains exclusively for TTC.
On Long Island, NYC and as far north as Poughkeepsie, NY, Bombardier M7 & M7a trains roam around making up the backbone of the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North Railroad. They were supposed to build the M8s but they lost out that contract to Kawasaki. I'm sad to see Bombardier go, but I think I'm also glad that Alstom bought them out as well, as they also make good trains.
Who knows? Maybe they'll make a Canadian version of the Avelia Liberty trainsets dei Canada, of Canada is extremely interested in High Speed Rail.
R179s
'nuff said
tbh it's a sad loss tho
If one order having issues was enough then we'd have no companies left
TTC ALRVs
BART Train of the Future
CTA 5000 Series....
All had major issues that threatened delivery.
Shall we continue on?
@@RMTransit was meant to be sarcastic oops
I don't understand why people complain so much about train builders. It's expected that there will be issues it happens with every company, trains are big things with lots of moving parts you cant hope for it to not have issues. almost all trains have issues, all that matters are how the companies who produced the trains handle the issues
Bombardier handles these issues bad
Some other companies, such as from Stadler, have a far better reputation compared to Bombardier.
People do the same thing with airplanes regarding Airbus vs Boeing. I’m no expert on the matter but from the way it seems, Boeing fell asleep on the job counting beans and their products became inferior. When one manufacturer falls behind, others eat up what they would have gotten otherwise.
Bombardier is a twisted company with both trains and planes. Probably the only thing keeping them afloat west of the Atlantic is NJ Transit. And NJT gives them tons of huge orders. Similar problem with Boeing and Bombardier happened with EMD locomotives... fell asleep on the job some time in the eighties and never recovered.
@@ecoRfan bombardier accepted way to many orders
Bombardier is another Connaught Labs. The other problem with rail stock, in general, is that transit expansion is usually the first thing to be cut when money starts running short. Given the long leads times to create a production line for a product and issues regarding each transit system being a fairly custom product it's not a surprise that maintaining an ongoing business in the industry requires extreme about of concentration. This results in one or two large global players feeding hundreds of parts manufacturers. Transportation manufacturing for rail will end up looking like the airline industry. But the airline industry has access to defence production that transit-based rail does not and that's the problem. There is no secondary industry to cover when the primary industry quiets down.
I thought you were a little more excited about the Alstom sale when it was first announced.. We'll see how much longer the legacy factory back in Thunder Bay stays around under the new model. It's difficult in a remote region where that one employer counts a significant part of the good paying trades positions - despite things coming a little late sometimes haha I always found it funny that the city without passenger rail in any capacity makes passenger rail for the rest of the continent - and I really hope it stays that way for years to come!
Very interesting video, I've worked at bombardier since I was 18 now 10 years later we are Alstom still producing the bombardier designed lrv and bilievel today but who knows what Alstom plan is
Great video! Your channel has come a long way
Our AM class CAF trains have slow doors and long dwell times, but they are still really nice, comfy trains.
Coming from one who lives in Philadelphia, I went to Florida. The monorail cars, along with the R62As in New York City are cooler than "few" cars made today.
Bring back Budd!
Although Bombardier was really good, in its final years it was doing somewhat poorly especially with the R179s having door issues and decoupling mid-travel and having screwed up brakes. But the S7/8 and before are really good. The R62As, the M7s, the JFK Airtrain, and the Multilevels are all great fleet and reliable. -Though some had a few issues, in the beginning, all was well afterward.-
Favorite Bombardier trains of all time, the Walt Disney World Mark VI monorails.
As a Londoner, id say the Bombardier trains we have had for the Underground are the best in the fleet in general.
Extending that, the Class 357 are among the best in the country for their time and even today (and also Bombardier), though that reflects my specific location in London
Their trains always manage to look great whilst also fitting the needs perfectly - look at the London Overground for example. Alot of the new manufacturers TFL is looking at are horrible in relation
Another tragic loss for Canada's high-tech sector, like Nortel before it. Sometimes it makes me wonder how bright Canada's future is for innovation when we keep getting downtrodden and shortchanged by bigger juggernauts in the US, Germany, China, etc.
Half of the TER fleet in France is Bombardier ... so if it was bad equipment, we wouldn't have as many ...;)
the Z50000 (Francilien) in the Paris region are also 100% Bombardier, and despite youthful defects, they have been driving perfectly for a few years ....
the UK is a major user of the Bombardier family for urban or interurban network.
I have also seen Bombardier in Shanghai, in the metro, alongside his biggest rivals and at the same time his brothers, Alstom and Siemens.
Well Bombardier acquired national "pride" BN (La Brugeoise et Nivelles) of Belgium... one of the reasons they bought a lot of Bombardier rolling stock, to keep the production site in Bruges open
Well I live in NYC and you should know the issue the r179’s sell and they were terrible for service. This isn’t the first time it happened in the nyc subway
Bombardier produced tons of good rolling stock for New York, and ofc I know about the R179
Thats intresting. We in London have Custon Juibile Line trains made by Bombadier, and there pretty good and will last along time.
@@petitkruger2175 and Victoria Line trains
Meanwhile we also have the R62As, R142s, and the crapton of M7s and Multilevels
*victoria not juibille
We in the Big Apple are sad for the demise of Bombardier. 😭 Two generations of subway cars came from Bombardier in the 1980s and the 2000s, and were built in Quebec & Upstate New York.
Sad to see Bombardier gone as of 2022.
That made the
R62a from 1985-87
R110b from 1992-93
R142 from 1999-2004
R179 from 2016-18
Mta metro North and lirr M7 from 2000 to 2005.
Shoreline iv from the 90s
I think the myriad of issues with the new Toronto Streetcars and R179s in New York put in the minds of Bombardier being a "bad" company. The 179s just like the new Toronto street cars have their issues and is working quite fine for New York City. As a train operator I operate them every day and they're very good cars this just a lot of the issues I don't like about them. It's sad that we lose Bombardier into Alsthom but I hope the remaining companies like Kawasaki ,Nippon Sharo and Alsthom can make quality rolling stock for all North American Transit systems. RIP Bombardier!!
At least in Germany, Bombardier has gained a reputation of turning railway technology into cost-optimized off-the-shelf products. They mostly competed on price, gradually using up the technological advantages and institutional knowledge their predecessors had. In the urban/light rail market several operators bought Bombardier in the 90s/00s and that experience led them to preferring to refurbish units built in the 70s/80s over buying more Bombardier
I am a Stadler Rail simp, no way around it.
I haven't been on one yet (I live in San Diego, California, which is very far from the nearest Stadler vehicle), but I am interested in them! After all, we don't have too many diesel multiple units here in the US, and Stadler Rail is one of the few DMU manufacturers in the US. In fact, in early 2022, California will be getting it's first Stadler vehicles in the form of the _Arrow_ in San Bernardino, somewhere between San Diego and Los Angeles, so maybe I might be able to ride one soon!
For more information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT#United_States and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(commuter_rail)
@@SleepTrain456 Stadler has sold various trains before (I believe mostly GTWs and Flirts), but those are the first ones that are (partly) made in America (because of the Buy American Act).
Fun fact about that, the CEO of Stadler Peter Spuhler said in an interview that if they were completely built in Switzerland, they would have been cheaper, but thats burocracy for you.
On the upside, Stadler started an Apprenticeship program in the region of the new plant, similar to the system in Switzerland.
some EMU’s here are powered by Bombardier motors, the most recent being the “LRV”s for the Palembang “LRT” Line and the Jakarta Airport train, both assembled by INKA, good trains if you don’t subject them to Japan-style crushloads, this happened to past joint ventures with them and BN Holec
5:32 I wouldnt say thats true. I live in Germany and the normal reginal trains here in my area are mostly Bombardier Talent 2, sometimes (well regulary for one line) Series 425 from Siemens/Bombardier/DWA because of Talent 2 shortage. The whole commuter service (S-Bahn) of Frankfurt uses those kinds (like Series 425) of trains from Bombardier. (Nearly (? idk)) All double stacked regional express trains (regional express is not "normal" regional) are Bombardier models. Only the high speed ICE trains are exclusively Siemens.
The biggest disappointment for me was that they essentially gave away their C-Series program to Airbus.
No doubt. IMO, that is the dumbest corporate decision ever.
Bombardier Transportation has history in Sweden. From the aquisition of ABB Railcar and the Kalmar rail factory. Due to this, there was the 1990's Contessa series as well as the early-2000's Regina series, as well as trams for Stockholm and Gothenburg, and the C20 and C30 trains for the Stockholm Metro. If you see a modern rail ehicle in Sweden, it's most likely built by Bombardier.
That being said, the Coradia is also quite frequent in some Swedish regions, and the Stadler Dosto is also becoming a thing ii Swedish regional train fleets.
Also the BM2 for Bucharest also came from Kalmar, at least the prototype, while Västeras supplied the traction and propulsion systems.
@@RockstarRomania In fact, the Movia 346 trains for Bucharest were developed by ADtranz, which was a consortium of many railway brands from different countries, especially from Germany, and was owned by Daimler-Benz/Daimler Chrysler group, and that's why i call it in joke '"The Mercedes Metro". The development of the train began in 1999 and it was finished in early 2001, shortly before Bombardier Transportation division bought ADtranz. The first unit "1001-2001 Dalia" which you call it "the prototype" was finished in late 2001. It arrived in Bucharest in 2002 and the cars were transported by one truck for every 6 of the cars. The rest of the units were assembled at an ex. Romanian company of locomotives, Electroputere. I think Electroputere assembled them worse because unlike the first unit, the rest of them assembled by them have problems. I don't say that these trains are unreliable, but Electroputere didn't had an experience in assembling metros, and the quality control was bad. Personally, after 2 years, i'm still sorry that the rail vehicles division of Bombardier was bought by Alstom. Personally, i don't really like Alstom as a company and their business practiques, even before that they were buying many manufacturers just to grow on size, like they aren't tired that they have now an entire monopole of factories around the world? After Bombardier bought ADtranz, they stopped buying other manufacturers, like Alstom did. My personal favourite major railway vehicles manufacturers are Bombardier and Siemens.
@@multicolector1232 I knew already the details about the BM2s backstory xD But thank you for the refresher.
And also, Bombardier also bidded in the 1999 tender for Metrorex with the former DWA plants in Ammendorf. They probably would've delivered something similar to BVG's H Class or S-Bahn Berlin's BR481, but thankfully we dodged the bullet.
@@RockstarRomania DWA was a smaller group of ex. VEB Waggonbau factories from East Germany. Bombardier bought the company's factories in like 1999, when they've changed the logo and the mame of the railway division because before 1998 it was named Bombardier Eurorail, and it was much smaller in terms of range of products and the factories they owned If You compared to what IT was after 2001. One of their most succesful products during the Eurorail era was the Talent trains, which were developed around 94/95 by Waggonfabrik Talent, shortly before Bombardier bought them in 1995. And the BVG H Clasa metros from Berlin are not made by DWA. They were made by ABB Henschel which later ended in the ADtranz consortium in 1996. They were just like the C20's, made by ADtranz (Mercedes), but the S Bahn trains which you mentioned, you were right. They were developed by DWA Deutsche Waggonbau.
People who think Bombardier weren't great clearly haven't heard of AnsaldoBreda. What a rabbit hole to dive into! Trains being so badly made that even the wiring was inconsistent set to set, being late with orders, parts just falling off trains, one train set ordered for iirc Denmark winding up in Libya as a present to Gaddafi (seriously, that happened. You can still see the train on google maps today, its still there), and trams being so heavy they destroyed the roads they ran on as they ran on them. I could go on...
...so I will! There were trains so late and badly built that they were forced to have them refunded, or in other cases, have them sent in an unfinished state to the customer who would build them themselves. One train had a major inspection where 10 points would be considered serious and would remove the train from service and investigations be conducted if necessary, along with major repairs. One set scored something like 2,000 points.
When Hitachi bought the company a few years ago, it was such a shitshow that they basically fired everyone, and rebuilt the company from scratch. From what I heard, Hitachi Rail Italy seems to be making decent products, on time and on budget.
I'm honestly amazed and somewhat disappointed that nobody on RUclips has covered this in detail. It's mind blowing how insane this all is. I'm barely scratching the surface here, believe me.
AnsaldoBreda had the rehabilitation project for NFTA-Metro in Buffalo to rebuild 27 LRVs over a 4 year period. It took over 10 years due to Breda messing up so many things on the project. Hitachi did come in and fixed a ton of issues that the former AnsaldoBreda had and they seem to be producing good products now on time and within budget.
2060
MTA: Ladies and Gentlemen this is the last Bombardier train R179 were built in 2016
You DO hear a lot of comments in Ottawa saying we should never buy Alstom again.
NJ Transit is supposed to get multilevel train sets from bombardier, I wonder what’s gonna happen now. They weren’t supposed to be delivered until next year.
They are finishing all existing orders
In Indonesia in August & Sept 2023 people enjoy BOMBARDIER LEGACY as
- LRT JABODEBEK (BOMBARDIER - INKA)
- KCIC CR 400 AF (BOMBARDIER - SIFANG )
KCIC = Indonesia first bulletrain serving Jkt - Bandung
Although they are now belong to Alstohm but for me Bombardier is still Bombardier
Fuxinghao isn't Bombardier's product, but CRRC product. The one that use Bombardier is CRH1 (Bombardier Regina) and CRH380D (Bombardier Zefiro). Fuxinghao has alot more in common with Siemens Velaro of Germany and Shinkansen E2 of Japan.
Personally this is sad news, as 80% of the trains I've ever sat in were Bombardier rolling stock and I never had any issues with them.
Bombardier is currently building the second order of electrified trains for Adelaide to enter service late this year on the soon-to-be electrified Gawler Line. Functional, reliable, well lit, and a pleasant ride. Will be unfortunate if we don’t get any more if/when more electrification happens.
Precisely talking , i had my own feelings for Bombardier, riding Bombardier metros in Delhi and was highly exited to see Bombardier rakes for Mumbai metro line 4. Sad to see but embracing for the future is better. Lets hope for the best
The R-179s have become a curse word amongst the NYC subway fans which is unfortunate because I’ve come to like the Hissing sound they make but on the flip side some of the older stock got a few more weeks in the sun which made 2020 suck a bit less.
I do appreciate Reece’s willingness to stick his neck out and defending his opinion on why we should mourn Bombardier. I think for us locally because the R-179’s replaced the last of the classic rolling stock with the Rail-Fan Window and have it be replaced with an inferior product is also worth noting. However, other Bombardier products have done their jobs well and will continue to do so.
Every single talent order 2 and 3 was or will be late
Many german trains are bombardier
Bombardier are based in Berlin, so his point is still valid.
Bombardier Transportation*
Bombardier bought up a huge part of the German rail industry, usually as the last step in a long line of mergers. Henschel, Talbot, DWA, ADtranz, ....
@ yeah, the original Talent trains for example were maybe Talbot's last train development
Bombardier's MOVIA metro trains for Singapore's Downtown Line metro is one of the most successful project to date. These trains are driverless and have been in service since 2013. The trains were manufactured in their factory in Changchun, Northeast China. The overall quality is excellent and they are very reliable trains. Bombardier was later awarded a major contract to supply 106 Movia metro trains of 6-cars each for our older higher capacity lines to replace older trains on a one-for-one basis, as well as a second contract to supply 19 Innovia300 APMs to replace old and failing first-gen APMs.
It is really sad to see Bombardier go as they have a proven track record for being able to produce great quality metros and meet delivery schedules. Though I like Alstom's quality as well, the acquisition of Bombardier by Alstom meant that there is now one less choice for Singapore's land transport agency regulators to choose from. Nevertheless, I do hope that Alstom will be able to complete and deliver the projects that were previously under Bombardier, on schedule.
Sadly, there will be a lot of job losses.
I feel your pain dude; feel like I’ve been let down by my country too. Seems Bombardier got murdered by management. They had a lot at their disposal but mismanaged it. On the other side of the border in the US where I am it feels like corporations such as Boeing are also in the process of letting us down by bad management. Then there’s all the failed/fallen (or failing in the case of EMD) train manufacturers.
Heard Bombardier chose to sell off their rail instead of their aviation division for political reasons (the latter employed more people domestically than the former, and a sale could cause retrenchment in whatever department is sold due to duplication of roles with the company buying it)
Bombardier train are still use in NJ Transit
Have a closer look in history; quite ALL
Rail-Related manufacturers closed after attaining a certain size: Adtranz , Siemens(tram) , Schindler , ALCO , ...
Alsthom is already in difficulties without the problems brought in with Bombardier !
This creates also a almost monopoly in the French market...not good !
In addition to this, delivery delays are also a very big issue, delays of over ONE (1) year are really problematic too.
Admission to service gives even more headaches...!!!
If you need great Rolling Stock buy Stadler
What are your thoughts on the rise of China's CRRC rolling stock?
@@hobog
Best conglomerate of stolen technologies...