Fire All Coaches & Answering Fan Questions | The Dive
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- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2024
- Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Dive! This episode was a little different since we’ve gone a few weeks without games. But don’t fret! Azael, Kobe, and Meteos talk about getting DDoSsed, fun LCS content, and deep dive into what makes a good coach. They also answer a wide variety of community questions - thanks for submitting, and keep ’em coming!
Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for next week's episode!
Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro, getting DDoSsed, LCS content
8:12 - GM, Coaches, and team discussion
14:30 - Ex Pros being coaches & what makes a good coach
33:10 - COMMUNITY QUESTIONS- Q1 @lofibanshee: Which champ would you bring back? Q2: Favorite thing about the new season?
41:42 - Q3 @TheDixieCup: Most important thing for international success?
46:33 - Q4 @smtanon: impacts from the 2 week break?
48:34 - Q5 Chris Tidwell: Roster changes before next split/who picks up Licorice?
50:18 - Q6 Jorge Villatoro: Who will win MVP, rookie of the split, coach of split, comeback player?
53:46 - Q7 Roadroller: fearless draft for Bo2 for the LCS?
56:10 - Q8 Justin Evans: LCS dream team? 2 import limit, peak skill, green card optional
1:00:04 - HOT TAKES- Gavin Quax Hung
1:00:55 - @MoleculeLoL: LEC clears LCS.
1:02:02 - @KUES_inthe_trap: FLY is most consistent team in league.
1:03:06 - @BillabangTv: Live patch is best decision LCS has made
1:05:15 - @PureRoze: Yeon being antagonistic is good
1:09:52 - @MrMittyman, @JoelGarrison1, @celiaclovergirl: Bo2 or Bo3?
1:12:24 - Q9 @TheHyterion: Thoughts on unconventional supports beginning to shine?
1:13:50 - Q10 @DannyHancuff: What about flash being turned into an item?
1:14:31 - Q11 @turdboy962: Favorite season in LoL history?
1:16:07 - Q12 @johndoe-fr6yy: Can riot bridge the gap between SoloQ and Pro Play?
You can always learn more and view the full match schedule at lolesports.com/schedule?leagu...
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Meteos is such a great addition to The Dive! Also, these thumbnails are absolutely amazing!
Thumbnails are great, but I noticed they change them like a day after pretty often… not sure why lol
@@bringthebongThey do this because the people that watch the video within a day are actual fans that would click on it regardless. Changing it to a different thumbnail might attract different viewers. Mr Beast does this and wants others to follow him bc it works.
I disagree and that is okay.
@@0973davidhe’s a great replacement for mark man. If you don’t like it don’t listen. Imagine hating a restaurant but still ordering their food just to keep complaining about it.
"We know what Jensen's been doing with his time off." LMAO
Context?
@@luckybychance05he was banned for ddosing by riot a long time ago
He's never gonna live it down.
@@nickmajoraThere is also another moment that he will never forget… OG fans will remember/know what it is.
Meteos has added so much to this show and i really hope yall keep him around.
I feel like there is a ton of potential in positional coaching and analysts like Kobe and azael were saying but Meteos is so fantastic on the show for having tons of cred as a veteran pro and no qualms about sticking to what he thinks as the actual player here
I found the T1 interview on this topic insightful. Guma said it's important that you do the play all together, even if it's"wrong"in your pov, trusting that the caller is seeing something they don't. The players that are humble and trust in each other, even though they have different opinions, is a huge strength. Of course it helps if one of them is faker
Azael's story about WOW ddosing is such a weird throwback. Sitting at home watching random wow arena streams circa 2013 and ddosing was just a constant reality all the players were super worried about as part of their day to day
lol it really was. back when i played runescape in like 2009-2012~ it was common to get ddosed if you had any in-game notoriety
Meteos: "what if the worst scenario possible was the case every time" 😂😂😂
Yeah, but Kobe is the one who actually backed that up and said 90% of the time, it's exactly as Meteos says. Of course Azael is right about what a coach could be but it sounds like over 10 years in, it's still almost never ever the case.
I watched the Phreak and Meteos episode and it actually got me hooked.
Yep. More Phreak please.
I disagree with Meteos about one of his arguments on the difference between traditional sports and e-sports. There absolutely is a huge different at every level of sports. If you try to argue that for example college football is similar enough to professional football you'd be laughed out of the room. Is it more similar than the difference between collegiate e-sports and pro e-sports? Maybe, I can't say. But I find it hard to believe that the discrepancy between pro and non-pro league is so disparate that pro coaches wouldn't improve by building up skills at lower levels.
He says quite a bit of things that are provably wrong and yet people just blindly believe him because he says it so confidently.
Well no shit, the level is completely different, but the game is still the same. The things you practice and perform still work 10-20 years later.
In league, entire fundamentals change on yearly basis.
Suddenly bot and top lane swap is the best strategy. Double mages are better than having an adc. Suddenly tower plates are buffed and now prioritized or nerfed and ignored. Herald is stronger and more important than dragon. If riot messes with minions again, last hitting and wave manipulation can be different. Riot messes with wards, vision is now different.
But in basketball a 3 point shot is forever a 3 point shot. If you practice it from 10 years old, you can still rely on it even when ur 25 and in the NBA. If you practice any champion for 10 years, there are metas where they are absolutely useless.
From coaching in collegiate to pro esports, I would say coaching is a lot different cuz how do you even coach your team to be successful against something like JDG. Playing wise I think its easier to adapt than traditional sports.
I play amateur and unless they’re coaching 750 lp players or above I feel like its a waste of time for the coaches.
Yea I don’t think meteos gets the concept a coach on the deepest level
@@vang-toulee8351 But you're not comparing the same things -- learning how to shoot 3s in basketball is like learning wave management or warding patterns in league. In the NBA and NFL, overall offensive and defensive strategies change a lot every year as well. For example, in the NFL, pre-snap motion and RPOs really came into their own in recent years, there's also been a transition towards empty backfields and 5-man offensive line fronts. On the defensive side, teams have moved away from cover-3 towards 2-deep. Pretty much everybody agrees that there's two reasons why college players struggle transitioning to the NFL -- one is that the athletes are better, the second is that the game is much more confusing at the pro level. In the NBA it might be harder to see but you have the rise of 5-out offenses, layered pick & roll schemes, switching screens instead of hedging, showing gap help, etc.
You can kind of see how difficult it would be to be a successful coach when the prevailing mindset amongst pros seems to be "you might be confident in what you're saying but my years of experience says your wrong"
Yeah, I felt the same way after watching this video. Meteos complained about the other players not listening to him on Optic but then gives off a really similar energy when it comes to his relationship with coaches.
@@Sporkyz74meteos just doesn’t want to be told what to do. He’s wrong though. The best teams in the world prove it. Something he knows nothing about.
Yea he did get screwed around a lot with a bunch of teams in his career so I can see how is very caged up about being told what to do as he has been near the top since season 1 and so definitely has the opinion that 5 pros know more than someone like Tony or LS. But a coach isn’t teaching you how to click a button or bounce a ball they have so many more roles etc which y’all obvs understand. But I don’t think meteos should deserve as much criticism from the hot take
It was a treat boys. Love meteos on the show, such good synergy with Kobe and azael
Meteos's takes are so stuck in 2018 its actually like im watching an old dive from back then haha
-Meteos thinks the biggest problem with coaches is having authority over players
-Meteos thinks 1 player should have ultimate authority over the rest
-Meteos asks hypotheticals about “what would you do if you knew your coach was wrong but the coach and your teammates don’t agree”
😂😂😂😂😂
I also don't think Meteos knows anything about traditional pro sports. Saying they never change makes no sense. Every season they change tons based upon rules, strategies, staff, etc.
Good coaching and good managers don't need to be as good as their team. Their job is not to play but to give their team the best chances to be the best they can be.
Meteos take is such an "I have no idea how to lead a group of people towards an idea" take, it's insane.
It sounded like his biggest problem was coaches who sounded like they knew how to play the game but actually didnt… not sure if it was just the authority thing
@TashiPM it's people telling you what's correct when you know it's not correct that he rightfully has issues with
Keep in mind Meteos came from an even earlier era of league where coaching was probably worse than it even is today. Of course he’s bias against it. It’s understandable, and his points hold water. I just don’t happen to agree with them
Long time dive and league fan (s3, watched the first dive episode and almost every one). I loved the long back and forth on coaches. Meteos brings a nice former pro aspect and Azael does too for the matter! It's really great to dwell on the nitty gritty regardless of any divisive vibes. Much love, hope to see more.
Love the addition of Meteos to the other two. His experience and views drive really interesting conversation and points from all sides and plays off the talents and styles of Kobe and Azael so well. Love this season of the Dive!
Great episode as always guys! I loved to hear the community questions come back
The distrust and lack of respect of coaches in NA is now I believe one of the reasons we will never be good as a region
Nah bro NA coaches just aren't good. Or better yet, the ORGS aren't good. Part of the reason why LPL has so many worlds caliber teams is because their orgs are environment where good players can play good. In LCS, teams like previous flyquest can fail drastically for no reason. Also teams in the east are supposedly more player driven or possess actual knowledge or vision. A worlds winning coach once came to NA and the team was shocked about how little he actually contributes.
If you watched t1's bts videos, their coach for their worlds run basically supported the team. The players supported him and encouraged him more because he was replacing their head coach who quit just before worlds.
I used to play old Urgot support. The amor shredding, constant poke and eventually swapping positions with a more valuable target was amazing. Another perfect take from Meteos
the back and forth on the coaches discussion was cool. another great episode :)
Fantastic episode! I see lots of people crediting Meteos for the quality boost (deserved ofc
And thank all of you involved for the content much appreciated..
Adding Meteos to this podcast was actual perfection. ❤ Thank you for the continued amazing content!
Meteos' PTSD from his previous coaches must be traumatic af lmao.
Thank you for being more mindful of hitting the desk in this episode! My headphone wearing ears appreciate it very much!
"Back to back sweeps" - Azael
It is honestly crazy how good this guy is sometimes.
Meteos brings the unique perspective of being a former lol pro which brings so much to the show! Great addition
Meteos bo2 take was the best argument I have heard for it. Teams already play twice in a double round robin, no one has a problem with them going 1-1 then. Back to back bo1s where each game just goes on the record sounds sweet. Three days of games, 2 “bo2s” on Friday, three on saturday and three on sunday gives each team 4 games a week. Way better than current format.
content machine dude!, the short are amazing too!
Has Meteos played traditional sports with a real coach I wonder? Most of my coaches were not players at a high level but understood the game better than we did. Would assume the same goes for League of Legends outside of NA.
That intro personifies the statement "Let him cook"
I would also say as far as coaching in league goes, Khoma, famously has never gotten out of bronze but has won like 3 championships
Holy shit that Pentagon story is incredible. Leave it up to some young degenerates to try and DDOS the f'n Pentagon lol
I like how you guys touch on the fact that you "don't need to be able to throw a ball into a hoop to know how to play basketball" when there's been a general community sentiment for the past 10 years that anyone who isn't at least challenger shouldn't be allowed to comment on the game, as if game knowledge is the same as ability to execute.
I don't think coaches need to be expert players themselves. Frankly, they don't even need to have hands to have a deep understanding of the game. The ability to execute is what the players are for.
As for coaches disagreeing with players on the best strategy, I think in this environment and especially as a coach, you really have to be open to the ideas of other people and be willing to discuss pros and cons and look at examples with them in order to get everyone on the same page. A pro player is who doesn't agree with the strategy that the coach has laid out can knowingly or unknowingly sabotage the game, and a coach who refuses to listen to better ideas won't be able to push the team to their limits.
@SleepyFen Yeah, Meteos comes across as someone that isn't listening to someone else's point, and is actively trying to figure out a rebuttal while the other party is still making their point.
Coaches need to be watching lots of league worldwide to study the game and learn what might work for the team. Also, keeping the players focused on winning instead of personal ego related arguments. Moving the mouse well has nothing to do with being good at coaching, and therefore being good at the game will be irrelevant to coaching well in some cases.
I love how the thumbnail picture makes sense when listening, meteos dunking on coaches
Love the convo about shaking up the way draft works. I want to see the meta be forced to adapt to a larger chunk of champs being played. Viewers should really make it known that this would be a really fun solution!
legit such a good discussion about coaching.
I want to see Kobe say to meteos "no you're a fucking idiot here's why" one of these times lol it looks like he wants to all the time
loved the coaching discussion
I love these conversations. I hope leadership is watching
Great episode
Another great episode. I currently coach High School eSports and hope to move up to collegiate eventually so I hope Azael is right.
These thumbnails are pure gold.
Fire content 🔥🔥🔥
There's a huge difference between having the mind to do something and having the dexterity to pull it off. Like a good salesperson might be an awful sales manager, and vice versa.
One of the many problems with Meteos' 5 guys and a dream vision for a team, is that it requires an Organization/Team/Owner to sink millions of dollars into player's salaries, support staff, housing, content, merchandise, and more on the hope some young kid who is amazing at a game he played in his parent's house for years, whom has never had a real job, never been in a position of power or management, can convince 4 other young egomaniacs to work as a team, practice enough, sleep enough, eat right, work out, garner a massive fan base, and win!
Yeah good fucking luck on that.
I competed in Halo competitive circuits for years... We had a coach who stood behind us the whole game and wasn't allowed to look at the feed to cheat just like the players... They kept track of spawn timers and designated targets or called plays. To Meteos' point having a team captain who has the most weight when they make a call is super important because the coach can't stand with them and do that in league. I would be super interested how teams would do if the coach was allowed to stay with the team during the match. Completely different mental game when your coach tells you all to STFU and focus instead of the players spamming go next.
Meteos looks like he was a hard teamate XD
wow i never listen to podcasts but this is starting to become a routine for me. good shit
This is the best iteration of The Dive ever. I loved Phreak, I loved Mark, I loved Jatt, but this lineup is so good. The amount of times Meteos makes Azael legitimately burst out laughing is so fun.
Love to see Meteos get ego checked on the coaching subject 🙏
Listening to pro players takes on coaching just shows that they have never had a decent coach in their lives. Meteos bringing up the idea of "the game changing constantly" as an argument against having a coach is just absurd to me. If anything that's more of a reason to have someone looking at and working on strategies for your team use. Honestly I think the biggest thing from allowing the coaches to be successful is player ego. Everyone thinks they know best when there is almost never one right answer. Not saying bad coaches don't exist, but as a constant coaching is almost always beneficial.
Yo what we really need format wise is 2 regular season round robins: 1 best of two followed by a best of one to tie break
old urgot was one of my most played champs, it was so fun and interesting to play. i was really sad when they reworked him
100% on that urgot opening!
For Summer I hope they go one best of one round robin followed by a best of two round robin based on seeding from the first round robin. Consistent broadcast times, more games, no ties and a little bit of adaptation. Can prep the first draft, normal experience second draft. It ends up as a modified best of 3 by the end of the season.
Meteos makes this show 10x more engaging. I already watched before but having an actual player’s perspective of things is sooooo refreshing
I totally agree. I used to be an urgot main.
Intro convo went hard
Rlly!? Reginald said the same thing about Gragas year ago. :S damn u guys are back def lol
Ok but like… we kind of play best of 2 already. A double round robin is you playing the other team twice. Having a back to back can be the exact same result. So why not just have best of 2’s?
If you wanna try and tie certain champs to certain rolls, give top/mid/bot turret lanes "classes" for lack of a better term. Top is the Tower, mid is the Turret, Bot is the barracks. each champ can have a better efficiency taking down each tower type somewhat incentivizing going in that roll. depending on the wording and how it plays out that could even effect early super minions, better vision from wards if you're winning top lane or bot lane.
A difference in culture between LCK and lcs coaches is that those coaches are typically managers and definitely a father figure authority with a very strong plan. Edgar, Cvmax, Coach Kim, Kkoma seems pretty chill idk, Daeny. But someone like Zeka is a technical knowledge coach with the analyst expertise. Just some random thoughts
Makes me sad pre-rework Yorick wasn't mentioned in that conversation, give me back my lane bully ghost buddies :(
All the talk about coaches just brings the TSM Regi memories flooding back. Ran that org into the ground and was delusional the whole time.
23:25 Meteos hits the nail on the head in terms of the solution for adapting to frequent shifts in the meta. And that "someone" he refers to outside of the the players playing as the driving force is an above human level AI of LoL. Having an 'alphastar' equivalent for LoL would be helpful for expanding game knowledge and stimulating higher performance from humans that get their minds expanded to the new found possibilities that lie waiting behind AI breakthroughs within game performance. I think even having games such as LoL becoming a general test for a models intelligence such as is now being used in games like minercraft to demonstrate a models world interaction capability could be meritable.
Dream team:
Top - Impact
Jg - Xmithie
Mid - Jojo
Adc - Doublelift
Supp - Corejj
32:06 T1 players have mentioned a couple of times that this isn’t the case. Faker has briefly mentioned that he got flamed by Keria and that they debate/discuss a lot about the game together.
Takeaways:
- Bo2 would be dope.
- Pro players don’t really respect coaches, coaches definitely have a place but not as out-of-game Team Captain. Kobe said it best: to distill large amounts of information into highly useful information for the players for sake of time and perspective.
- Azael is pretty much bang-on with all his arguments idealistically, while Meteos’ comments pretty much amount to: “Yeah but coaches kinda suck in reality tho”.
- I feel that most people agree with Azael because he makes the most sense, but I think Meteos was describing how it didn’t work in practice without being able to pinpoint exactly why.
- DDOSing the Pentagon is a bad idea
Damn y’all AC flex’d on us
I think a great person to talk about in the perspective of a coach, is Koma and his career.
33:10 I miss Old Mordekaiser; Summoning a dragon felt SOOO satisfying
Was really surprised to hear my name on here. ~Chris Tidwell
Guys, it's easy. Lec format but the first single round robin is bo2
Can we have URFitational brought back? Maybe during break/gap weeks
I'm pretty sure Incarnati0n was jensens reformed name when he was picked up by c9.
Azael shitting on the bo2's but I think unironically tiebreakers just even that out. You just track the match score, placement at the end of the year is based on aggregate match score, and if multiple teams are tied you can do like strength of wins/win timers to break the tie.
Impact, Santorin, Bjergson, Doublelift, CoreJJ.
I think 2023 Worlds T1 somehow accidentally achieved the dream team-coach relationship of both Meteos and Kobe said.
After Kim and Daeny, Faker has been vocal for coaches who had a player background. He's also somehow the person to do the intermediate when they had disputes.
All the players determine the drafting. Tom does the analysis and prepares game plans, also giving Oner the feedback of jungle pathing and stuff since he was a jungler.
Roach was the top lane counterpart of that job.
Hell ya!!!
To go off of what Meteos is saying about get one player and have him play with his boiz, isn't this what Mad Lions Koi did this split in the LEC with Elyoya? They made it to the finals in their first split together, surprising everyone so definitely seems like its helping prove his point.
I think having SOME summoner's turned into items could be cool, just not flash. Like, imagine if Ignite was turned into an offensive/lethality support item like Umbral Glaive, and it would be a cheap option to help shut down the healing on a drain-tank carry like Aatrox, or if there was an item like Anathema's chains where you target an enemy and it stacks up over time, and when it reaches max stacks then you can cast exhaust on them, and then it goes on cooldown to re-stack.
I think what limits this idea is defensive summoners like Flash, Cleanse, and Heal. So many champions are balanced around the fact that everybody has flash, that if summoner's were turned into items that you had to buy in-game, all of the immobile champs in the game would really struggle because then they would HAVE to opt into that item while all the mobile champions, like Assassins and Divers, can get away with going for their core item first. Cleanse already has an item version, and that's QSS, but Cleanse is actually even worse than QSS (because QSS can cleanse silences, like Malz ult), and even then, people never like to buy QSS (partly because it's super expensive and partly because it's full items aren't great).
I think meteos is super onto something with the structure of having kind of an IGL or captain, I think having an authority figure IN the game that can be making the calls for the team in real time might be a more beneficial role. I honestly think that’s why T1 has had so much success over the years, faker kind of fills that role.
I would love to have chatted with some of these guys on the coaching topic. I am mainly in agreement with Azael. I think a coach's role is to delineate strategy and encourage conflict resolution and progression. It is not necessarily a HEAD coach's job to teach fine skills at a pro level. I also feel like most of Meteo's problems were actually the derivative of mistrust and problematic authority, not just intrinsic to being a coach. A coach is just a leader. They SHOULD listen to their players. They SHOULD take into account their players/teams strengths when developing strategy. They SHOULD recognize their weaknesses and work to build up a team of both players and support staff that all enable each other. I think League exists in a relatively unique space where it is one of the largest games in it's genre but the concepts aren't nearly as isolated as they may feel. Every sport (e- or otherwise) struggles with finding good coaches. The problem is it's alot of trial and error and vetting.
this had the most respectful arguments ive ever heard it was so refreshing haha if only politics were like this XD
I also miss the old Urgot, although it feels really weird to say this now since back then literally nobody played him. Despite him being a pretty good counterpick against certain champs.
Isaac talking about Swain rework… found the warlock main
I truly love Meteos and very much respect his opinions as both an ex player and just as a mind for the game, but I do feel his coach take is an "old school player" type the that can actually be bad for growth in the sport as a whole. Esports are, like Azael said, in their infancy, and you need o give systems like coaching time to grow. That definitely comes down to coaches actually doing their jobs first, though. I also completely agree with Azael saying that a pipeline for coaching would dramatically improve coaches as a whole. Just because they coach ar lower levels doesn't mean they'll gain nothing. They'll learn to work with personalities and how to adjust to the skill levels of their individual players as well as the constant change of the game I completely agree that coaches in the LCS are NOT doing what they should be right now, but things like temporary coaches are not a sustainable system.
Just for reference, the reason I call it an "old school player" take is because you tend to hear a lot of this kind of talk in the NBA as well and that's generally what it's referred to there.
I'm not pretending I know more than Meteos in any way. I just think it's a nuanced discussion.
Just as an added side point, Fearless draft is awesome.
Best of 2 is terrible. I say this as someone who watched BO2 in EU LCS 2016 and those were extremely unsatisfying games to watch, in my opinion. I would potentially stop watching if it went to BO2.
Wait... I knew Meteos (Will Hartman) and Kobe (Sam Hartman-Kenzler) were long lost brothers!
2015 for sure. I could go out of town wearing my c9 hoodie and I would have so many random people come up and talk to me about league
1:14:00 sick idea from Meteos
i completely agree that LCS should be playing more games per split, and honestly, im one of those "we should add more teams to the region too i mean lck has like 18 main teams not including academy
66° is what I set the AC to overnight 💯
Best episode this split. Felt like Meteos could bring more value from the ex pro position than previous episodes.
I’d be fine with “BO2” getting to see both teams on both sides of the map, cuz some metas are super red side or blue side favored. As for ties 1-1, we’ve waited longer for anime cliffhanger resolutions-we’ll live 😂
I Loved old Urgot!
That could be fun, LEC VS LCS tournament for the teams that don't make it to worlds/msi
Nothing like waking up and listening to Meaty Toes spicy takes
It's SO good!! ❤
Let's gooo
For players without teams, you could pick up Biofrost as support, OR you could swap Zven to support and pick up Stixxay for AD 🤔