Robert & Aziz , excellent stream , two hours absolutely flew by , it is always great getting two of the best minds in the ASoIaF fandom together. Not sure if it was answered during the stream as I had some wifi issues for a few portions of it but is it possible the fallout that is current blighted Asshai could have been as a result of the Bloodstone Emperor's magical collapse ? Whatever next level atrocity the BE was attempting could have had some type of apocalyptic blowback and fallout for the area.
Lightbringer is a literal translation of the name Lucifer. I am positive George would be aware of that usage, as he was raised Catholic "“Lucifer” literally means Lightbringer, Lightbearer, Bringer of Dawn, Shining One, or Morning Star. The word has NO other meaning." Edit: just remembered that he references "worshippers of the black goat" and other strange gods which show he does already have references to something similar to real world types of Satanists
The literal Latin translation is actually Light Bearer. It's use comes from a passage where a Babylonian King is accused of thinking he's a rising star, but is told he's really a falling star. Someone mistranlated it, but was corrected later. But it ends up becoming part of folklore permanently. The Morning star is a rising star. And the Evening star is a falling star. Both are Venus in the sky during twighlight, but have seperate names. Lucifer and Vesper. The problem is, there are prayers called the Vesper Prayers. Around 600AD someone decided to give Satan a new name. Naming Satan Vesper (falling star, night bearer) would mean the Vesper Prayers would become the Satan prayers lol. So the name Lucifer was used instead. Dispite Jesus refering to himself as the Morningstar in the Bible (which is probably the main reason the mistranslation was fixed.) The Greek god Phosphorus, also known as the morning star, the son of Eos (Dawn, called Aurora in Latin), who bears a flaming torch, his name translates to Lightbringer. He's also known as Eosphorus, which means Dawn Bringer. In Greek mythology, he signifies the coming end of winter when he shines brightest, and he brings the day and ends the night. This seems to fit well with the story of Ice and Fire. Hesperos, his half brother, is the nightbinger. The Eviningstar. Hesper also means West. And it's where the Underworld and death is located, after crossing the River Stix (the narrow sea). Most indo european religions a death realm is in the west, and a body of water or bridge needs to be crossed to get there. In Celtic Mythology, it's a happy place with magical fairies, white trees, and stuff. A guy called Bran the Voyager goes there and kinda gets stuck there. There's another Bran called Bran the Blessed, who could see the future and he told people to cut off his head and bury it under a white hill to induce a protective enchantment. Bran means raven in Geallic. Hesperos - Westeros (Hesper means west) Eosteros and Hesperos, Lightbringer and Nightbringer are two sides of the same coin. Eosteros' father is Astraeus. The god of Dusk (nightfall) and wind...his name means star. His mother is Eos, Dawn.
It’s so sad that the ASOIAF content creators can’t all work together. I would love to see Robert, Aziz and Lml work with Order of the Greenhand when they talk about these kind of things they are great people who don’t get a fair shake because of their theories but Jesus get over it lol this is all suppose to be for fun anyways. Or even if they worked with Preston Jacobs that would be super cool as well. All of you guys/girls have theories I like/love believe and don’t believe doesn’t mean we can’t all be friends lol
omgjimmyboy Would you mind expanding just slightly on exactly why? I'm not aware of all the goings-on between these channels, I only truly know them as disparate entities.
its so cool its all up. prestons' analysis goes so deep when not on a lark, that i am left feeling stupid - which rarely happens when i read a series many times! lol. So having all the voices and views and fractals is amazing. that personalities clash and get snippy is inevitable if lamentable. They all have their own styles: robert - polished, recycles aziz - way deep, rambles on, has hottie partner lol Preston - jaw dropping analysis at times, hilarious and whacky at times too. alt shift x - a nice middle ground between almost all. LmL and a new fellow hosting him just came to my attention - a finally a F'Aegon - vid too! i am surfing the different versions of the sample chapters. its really an explosion of community brainstorming, that always prior used to be on forums, or in live round tables.
David yeah man I remember when it was just history of Westeros lol. The “new guy” with LML i think you’re referring to Quinn from ideas of ice and fire or something (he changed the name I believe) but he’s been around just as long as everyone else. As far as I am aware he was the first person to speculate the COTF may not be so good and maybe tricking Bran or have a sinister hidden agenda. Yeah I agree it’s nice to have a lot of different videos on the subject but I would like for them to collaborate together more and debate/talk about the different theories and which hold more weight than others because ALL of them have a bias when it comes to what they think will happen and it shows when they discuss other theories (especially Aziz) and it would be nice to have someone there who can kind of defend other theories
Given how late he was introduced and how crazy he legitimately is, I've been writing book Euron off quite a bit. I can't wait for Winds of Winter to prove me wrong.
Given the amount of gemstones/precious metals and the lack of mention of mines I have a suspicion that there's at least some folks that just go through the empty buildings in Ashai and find the stuff. Seems like a pretty solid means of income given how huge the city is. Love how it was mentioned that cities don't get any larger than they need to and a big thing that starts a city is how much food can be produced locally and as it grows importing becomes more of an option. Our own cities are the same really. There are exceptions of course but even then it's still a matter of at least water. Case and point Las Vegas Nevada and a lot of other cities that are in the middle of what's clearly a desert. Even cities like that were more like small trade posts that popped up because there was a ready water source. So it likely seemed like a great place to stop and resupply. The big factor was when the logistics of bringing food in became more feasible. Railroads were a true game changer, to say nothing of airplanes and automobiles with an accompanying road system. Great video gents.
I always skip through the middle bit because I watch these long after the fact, and I know when to stop skipping because Robert puts his glasses back on (:
All these videos made me want to read the first book again and start my collection of the ASOIAF books! One book at a time, just to understand better what is in the pages mentioned in the amazing content in front of us...
Great stream! My big question about this is: isn't it out of georges style to make something so little talked about in the books so important for the ending of the whole story? I like to see this epos as a big tragedy of human beings embellished with some magic and not a huge fantasy story.
Thank you for referencing “Anatomy of Planatos: The Great Empire of the Dawn”, published April 2 2015 by LML. I just discovered his essay. I then went to History of Westeros site and indeed there was was a wonderful collaboration with LML on this topic.
he was not on a stream explaining this to me. We collaborated on a scripted studio-recorded episode where many of the ideas were his and many of them were mine. With all due respect you are not telling the truth here.
I'm glad I finally get to watch this. I'm sure it'll be amazing. With you two pillars of the fan community, how could it not be? I expect it will be the best discussion of the GEOTD I've ever heard.
I think the woman with the monkey's tail was one of the children of the forest - or at least the Essos-y equivalent of that race. She helped Azor Ahai end the Long Night, in the same way that the children of the forest helped the Last Hero end the Long Night in Westeros. The eastern and western myths of the long night are obviously very similar, so - a woman with a connection to nature, who helped Azor Ahai bring back the light? That sounds like a child of the forest. Maybe the men of the east just confused the children of the forest with monkeys.
Lightbringer is sometimes used to refer to Lucifer. As well as "lightbearer". By several groups. The "dark gods" described in the far East and ancient times may have an alternative, possibly even completely opposite, interpretation.
1:54:19 there is a legitimate answer to this question, and to find it, look to the Cyvasse board. A "dragon" is a metaphor for a person's ultimate weapon. In the book, many people are playing what seems to be their final, most risky strategy. That's the grand metaphor of the title
I’ve always wondered if the decline of divinity in the emperors as time progressed has any correlation to the practice of Valyrian/Targareyn inbreeding.
I had an epiphany that I don't like fantasy novels, but I like novels about human thought and emotion. The fantasy setting is fun, but as a genre it lacks most of what really matters in any story, and the reason Martin and Tolkien (and a few others) stand out is because they write about the human condition.
theres a lot of free association and long stretches. Its almost like 'search text for instances of "monkey"' - look! I found the word repeated more than once, there must be a connection! :/
@@SporkyMcFly don't get me wrong, I love this channel and ASOIAF and tinfoiling. I'm just chiming in to say I found some of the 'pattern recognition' a bit of a stretch.
I watched Amanda’s (the disputed landss / crowfoods daughter) vid regards the origin of dragons 👍🏼👍🏼 Magic + Wyverns + Firewyrms + human slave experiments in the Empire of the dawn created Dragons 🐉 and very likely spawned the evolution of Valyrians as a race .... this makes perfect sense to me ! Also the hypothesis that’s how Valyrians have a tolerance to heat beyond the norm and taking the next obvs step in2 how/why they’re more able to control dragons for their advantage.... you guys are so clever .... well, not as clever as GRRM obvs but pretty close 😁
Same. It makes sense that they’d see the Valyrians as family, I’d assume they have a dragony scent to them that the dragons can smell and recognize one of their own. And if they imprint on that Valyrian when they’re hatchlings like with Danny, similar to the way hatchling chicks can imprint on humans, combine that with smelling like dragons and you’ve got a very powerful bond.
For to the different versions of the Long Night which would have taken place in different location, I thought that maybe there was only one Long Night and that this one took place on the territory of the empire of Dawn. After the Long Night, the empire split and several groups/peoples migrated and colonized the rest of Essos. At that time, Dorne was still attached to Essos allowing a certain group of people to settle there (ancestors of Dayne and Oldtown/Hightower as well as Dorne perhaps). This would explain why there are so many different versions of The Long Night, which has been modified and adapted over thousands of years.
I really enjoyed this livestream, however I was surprised and sorry that neither of you mentioned, what is in my eyes and those of many others in the fandom, the seminal work in the fandom about the Great Empire of the Dawn, the collaboration video between Aziz & LML on the History of Westeros channel from a couple of years ago. All fans interested in this topic would really benefit from & enjoy watching it. I understand that some relationships within the fandom community have broken down, however I think that the video could have been mentioned and a word of credit gone to LML & Durran Durrandon for their original thoughts and input into the ideas that were discussed here and in that project. Obviously I understand the ideas belong to GrrM & not content creators, so this is not a point about intellectual property rights, but in this fandom we have usually been hot on giving credit where it's due for original ideas and work done piecing information together, it's a shame to see its not happened here. For those who are interested, I'll post the links to the fantastic resources I mentioned that would certainly complement this video, in the replies. Big Love to all asoiaf fans & content creators 💜
JoJo Lady Dayne , yeah no disrespect to anyone but I feel that LmL has been very hard done by , I do not know enough about the specifics of everything that went down even though some content creators and those in the fandom have offered to provide all kinds of evidence to a surprisingly eager degree. But not only do i love LmL's work but a disagreement between LmL and one individual should have created such a schism in the fandom ? with those pressuring many to choose sides and deeming LmL as some sort of pariah , seems overly harsh imo. Just a shame for such a vital cog in the content creator / fandom , who has produced some amazing theories and overall fantastic body of work has been alienated and ostracized by some the way he has been. I know you are saying about simply giving credit where it is due and no one is forcing anyone to have a certain guest on or be friends with such and such and I agree with that but overall this whole situation revealed a very nasty underbelly and duplicity at work within the fandom. Ntm , some of the faction / contingent pointing fingers at David have been accused of doing some not so nice stuff to other parts of the fandom as well , with visual real time proof on offer. Just a shame what this whole situation has revealed within the fandom.
duplicity? That's quite unfair and literally backwards. The reason none of us will work with David anymore is because he proved himself to be extremely dishonest. He's not my friend anymore, an attitude shared by many others who witnessed the things that caused this split. He dug his own grave and chiseled his own headstone.
@@HistoryofWesteros for one Aziz , definitely not referring to you in any way , but with duplicity I meant there were some of the most vocal calling for his head who have been associated with those or accused directly themselves of poor treatment towards minority and female voices within the fandom. And I also said no one should be forced to collaborate or have a guest on or be friends with anyone regardless of the reason, no issue there at all. Maybe I am too much a fan of his and his work and I guess I can't imagine he would or could do something so bad to warrant such a response to publicly try to ruin him. Again not accusing you of such , and don't be friends or work with him thats fine , no one should be forced with such choices. But I just couldn't imagine such public campaign against someone and it left a bad taste for one with those who have been accused of treating other parts of the fandom badly themselves and the efforts in such a public way offering emails , texts , proof etc. I personally did not like how it went down. Don't work with him , don't be friends with him if anyone so chooses but the public smear campaign from some I personally did not care for. Don't work with someone fair enough but some efforts to literally take someone down in such a public manner , I did not like.
*A bit of a huge discrepancy:* The 5 forts were created 1,000 years ago, because the people of the time period were dealing with the Others BEFORE the Long Night. If that is the case, then the Children of the Forest, didn't create the Others. The Children of the Forest's war with Men, happened much later. The CoF may have made this particular Night King seen in the show, but the Others were around a lot longer and the death of this Night King doesn't mean that the Others were defeated. Also, how would the CoF know how to create the Others, unless they had seen it before? So similar to the concept of a Lord of Light (Good), there is a concept of a Lion of Night (Evil) and these two forces have been at war from the very beginning of life. Therefore, the Night King isn't a Ruler at all, he is a General, and his death doesn't mean the death of the Others. He can be replaced. The Lion of Night is the ruler, and when groups of people such as the The Bloodstone Emperor and The Children of the Forest, foolishly call upon him, the Lion of Night sends a General and it's Army into the world. Which usually spells disaster for the summoner and everyone else.
My theory is that Stygai was the pleasure palace of the Bloodstone Emperor, like Sunmerhall was for Targaryans, where he conducted all his blasphemous rites. The source of the doom of Asshai
I just want to say to Robert AND everyone who supports him. Thank you! Im not in a position to donate $ to my favorite Internet personalities, but the people that do give support to them is very appreciated. Having this free content makes reading books and watching shows more enjoyable. Catching up on all these videos is awesome. Thank you Robert and your supporters!
What is the Bloodstone Emperor is actually telling us about John. He comes back to life (assuming because it’s such a huge plot point of the show that it probably came from GRRM) so Necromancy; he worships a stone from the sky (he might use Dawn), canablism might occur in the North (which we’ve already seen in Stannis’ army). I know it’s a stretch but John kills Dany in the show which again I think is a major plot point from GRRM. I think he does parallel Euron, but maybe it’s a Red Herring.
I think GRRM got a bit carried away with Essos history and is going to have quite a job orchestrating it all. Radical fractal expansion into mirror-image ancient orientalist resonances on Essos risks the integrity of the fairly simple poetic symbolism in the Song of Ice and Fire.
The long age of ancient emperors/kings/heroes are from the real world too. If you go back to Sumerian and Babylonian ancient history you'll find these stories. Personally, I think they might have ruled for 10.000 days instead of the coming year as that would make more sense.
I don't think the great empire of the dawn ever existed per se. I think Danny's dream was a manipulation and the church of starry wisdom and other forces use this mythology to their advantage when it suits them. I don't think either the base of the high tower or the 5 forts were built by this "Great Empire" and for the most part it's grandiose story is an eastern mythos that many use to explain both the long night and the remnants of high technology that litter Essos.
I prefer to believe that the rulers of Asshai rode on a species of powerful flying proto-dragons (not the Wyverns of Sothyros, but a larger more powerful armored relative that inhabited ancient Westeros and Essos), but that the first true fire-breathing dragons were created in Valyria using blood magic to cross those beasts with Firewyrms from the Fourteen Flames.
could Asshai have been built as big as it was so when the inevitable evil arrives it could be a fortress for the remaining humans? and if the Children of the forest are who created the others that would explain why “children” can’t live in Asshai..
@@evilmerv4645 I don't know a lot of details, but apparently some things happened between LML and Sanri at a GoT convention last year. And there was a disagreement about money from joint streams they did. They both aired some dirty laundry online. There were accusations of lying and other bad behavior. LML has been shunned by most of the rest of the community and lost tons of subscribers. There is a thread of comments on this video that talks more about it. History of Westeros (the guest on this stream) even jumps in.
They keep wanting to unite Jon with the sword Dawn but since they are both unrepentant R+L=J advocates suffering from deep confirmation bias, the notion that Jon is Ashara's son and possibly the legal heir to both Starfall and the Office of Sword of the Morning just doesn't register. I love these two but they just won't entertaining crossing that N+A=J bridge until George smacks them in the head with it.
Too be fair everyone in the books keeps saying how honorable and honest Ned is. And it seems to be so focused that it appears as if there’s no way Ned is Jon’s father. Then you also have to factor in Ashara’s “suicide” then. Why commit it if she has a whole baby boy? Then you have to also rectify the timeline of when Jon was conceived . He’s said to be the same age as Robb. Robb was conceived right before the war in Ned’s marriage to Cat. When did Ned have time to conceive Jon with Ashara? Also the Daynes love Ned but if he stole Jon from Ashara as soon as he was born I just don’t see them liking him them much. N+A=J would destroy Ned as a character after everyone built him up as honorable.
I think it would be courteous of you both to acknowledge the originator of many of the ideas you discuss here, LuciferMeansLightbringer. You are both well aware that you are discussing his theories as I have watched you both discuss them with him on livestreams in the past, before the knives came out. Robert, you seem like a reasonable bloke and you stayed out of all the nastiness (publicly at least), so I hope you can understand why crediting LmL is the right thing to do.
I second the motion that LML should be credited. It is churlish to do otherwise. You all don’t have to be friends, but it is unprofessional not to acknowledge his existence when it is clearly warranted.
That asshole lied to me and almost caused me to do great harm to my own reputation until I figured out the lie. I'm never mentioning his name on a stream again for any reason, good or bad.
@@tentaclepawn1548 Stop calling them his ideas. They aren't. As I already told you, and have the scripts to prove, I wrote far more of this stuff than you give credit for, and I mostly stuck to that stuff. For example, we never even alluded to, yet alone mentioned, his moon meteor theory.
Robert... please don’t listen to the whining. This is GRRMs material. People need to MOVE ON with their lives. Really. Move on. This isn’t copyrighted material except BY GEORGE. And we don’t mention a-holes...EVER AGAIN. Get used to it. If only people really knew how this grown man behaved behind the scenes they wouldn’t mention him either. I really enjoyed this stream. Aziz is a great guest. Please don’t pay any mind to this drama. Ignore and keep doing your thing.
@Bernie L I don't care how he behaves behind the scenes. I'm in this fandom for discussion of ASIOAF, not wholesome personalities. And this isn't anything to do with copyright or legal issues - it's about acknowledging the hard work of others. Don't want to mention him? Don't make a video on his ideas.
Ser Tommard Long they’re not just his ideas. He doesn’t own geotd. Every time a movie is made that has been influenced by another film the before mentioned film ISNT mentioned. If we were going on what someone else has already said in the asoiaf community then we spend the whole time citing some random reddit user. It’s really not HIS. Just STOP. And I absolutely think it’s important to know who and what you associate yourself with. I have integrity!!!! This is so dumb. It’s a fucking RUclips video on fantasy world building. Good grief. It’s not high art. Lol. All theories at this point are just a melting pot. Hardly something to stake a claim over.
@@tentaclepawn1548 wow you don't care if someone is a criminal or screws over the people he works with. As long as you like what he says? He himself constantly used others ideas without crediting the source. Unlike this situation where they were quoting text. Move the fuck on. I put him out of my mind and moved on but if he wants to air it all out in public again, which none of us want, he can keep taking shots at other creators. He moves in the shadows more snake than dragon.
@@LadyShar A criminal? I'm sorry, were legal proceedings brought against him? Was he arrested? Did he go to court? It's a big claim to call someone a criminal. And for the record, yes I would 100% still watch his channel if I discovered he was a criminal. H.P. Lovecraft was a bigoted, racist homophobe, but his stories are fantastic. Philip K. Dick was by some accounts an abusive, nasty piece of work, but he is probably my favourite sci-fi author of all time. Caravaggio was an actual murderer, but hot damn are his paintings beautiful. God, what a dreary place the world would be if all art was judged on the personality of the artist. I would certainly reconsider if I believed LmL was plagiarising others, as that is an issue of a different sort, but I have never seen any evidence of this myself. Do you have examples?
@@BernadetteLangeArt Artistic influences in something like a film are not the same as plagiarism. I don't want to come across as pretentious for comparing youtube to art (maybe I already have - whoops!) but making a youtube video or writing an essay is a creative endeavour. To frame it all a different way, imagine this is all taking place 30 years ago before the internet, amongst a group of academics discussing Shakespeare. No one is denying that Shakespeare and Shakespeare alone wrote the plays (actually some people do deny this, but I digress!). But if one academic wants to use another academic's ideas ABOUT Shakespeare's work, they would need to reference that source properly. If they don't, they are plagiarising the other academic and could face legal action. That is how plagiarism works. Saying "it's all GRRM's" is missing the point. Sure, no-one is expecting Harvard referencing on a youtube vid, but a hat-tip to the originator of the ideas you are discussing isn't too much to ask, no matter what your personal feelings on them are. If you can't bring yourself to do that, make a video on something else. And I get what you are saying about the futility of trawling reddit to make sure no-one has come up with your idea before. But in this case we are talking about a published essay and a guest slot on Aziz's channel discussing these ideas. No reddit trawling necessary.
@@Richard_Nickerson The books can result in what the show did but in different context, so yeah she will most likely burn King's Landing but it won't come out of blue like in the show did...
Still hate what the show did to the character. He went from being the most terrifying and dynamic characters, and was reduced to "a finger in the bum."
Lmao Aziz is such a fraud. The fact that so many in the thrones fandom fetishize this guy like he’s a celebrity is laughable. I’ve been to each con of thrones and nothing makes this guy an “expert” other than he’s read all the source material, like a few million other people. “His” theory totally stolen from LML
Oh, come on. I don't care what GRR says... the world of Ice & Fire is definitely a science fiction novel, not fantasy. The ancient people (first settlers of the planet), the Long Night, (comet impact), origins of the dragons (genetic engineering), it's all explainable as Clarke's 3rd Law; "any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
The way aziz talks about women's bodies. Gross. Her "ordeal" and a giggle. It's called a miscarriage or abortion. Not "ordeal with her pregnancy" god this guy is annoying. Just baubles, can't get to a point, goes off on tangents. Very uninterrupting. I hope it will be a long time before IDG fans have to endure this again. Nobody needs a nearly 2.5 hour stream like this.
Very uncool move on the part of @historyofwesteros who seems to be high as fuck during this stream. I am not even a fan or follower of LML, and I totally believe what he did is true, in fact he is a douche. But, he is a great theorist, and even IDG used to say he was one of his favorite people of all time to have on there because his ideas and theories are solid and well researched. I am a patron of IDG but if this Aziz guy is a regular, I will stop.
I caught the very end of the stream live. Im here to watch from beginning. Thanks guys
Robert & Aziz , excellent stream , two hours absolutely flew by , it is always great getting two of the best minds in the ASoIaF fandom together. Not sure if it was answered during the stream as I had some wifi issues for a few portions of it but is it possible the fallout that is current blighted Asshai could have been as a result of the Bloodstone Emperor's magical collapse ? Whatever next level atrocity the BE was attempting could have had some type of apocalyptic blowback and fallout for the area.
Not easy... this subject has produced some droll for live streams to listen to
Thank you Robert and Aziz another fab stream sorry I couldn't join it live last night was a little to late for me
Lightbringer is a literal translation of the name Lucifer.
I am positive George would be aware of that usage, as he was raised Catholic
"“Lucifer” literally means Lightbringer, Lightbearer, Bringer of Dawn, Shining One, or Morning Star. The word has NO other meaning."
Edit: just remembered that he references "worshippers of the black goat" and other strange gods which show he does already have references to something similar to real world types of Satanists
I’m not as smart as George but I was raised SUPER catholic and had no idea
In the TV show Lucifer his name on earth is literally Lucifer Morningstar: lighbringer X2... It's based on graphic novel, I think. It's very good!
The literal Latin translation is actually Light Bearer.
It's use comes from a passage where a Babylonian King is accused of thinking he's a rising star, but is told he's really a falling star. Someone mistranlated it, but was corrected later. But it ends up becoming part of folklore permanently.
The Morning star is a rising star. And the Evening star is a falling star. Both are Venus in the sky during twighlight, but have seperate names.
Lucifer and Vesper. The problem is, there are prayers called the Vesper Prayers. Around 600AD someone decided to give Satan a new name. Naming Satan Vesper (falling star, night bearer) would mean the Vesper Prayers would become the Satan prayers lol. So the name Lucifer was used instead.
Dispite Jesus refering to himself as the Morningstar in the Bible (which is probably the main reason the mistranslation was fixed.)
The Greek god Phosphorus, also known as the morning star, the son of Eos (Dawn, called Aurora in Latin), who bears a flaming torch, his name translates to Lightbringer. He's also known as Eosphorus, which means Dawn Bringer.
In Greek mythology, he signifies the coming end of winter when he shines brightest, and he brings the day and ends the night.
This seems to fit well with the story of Ice and Fire.
Hesperos, his half brother, is the nightbinger. The Eviningstar.
Hesper also means West. And it's where the Underworld and death is located, after crossing the River Stix (the narrow sea). Most indo european religions a death realm is in the west, and a body of water or bridge needs to be crossed to get there. In Celtic Mythology, it's a happy place with magical fairies, white trees, and stuff. A guy called Bran the Voyager goes there and kinda gets stuck there.
There's another Bran called Bran the Blessed, who could see the future and he told people to cut off his head and bury it under a white hill to induce a protective enchantment. Bran means raven in Geallic.
Hesperos - Westeros (Hesper means west)
Eosteros and Hesperos, Lightbringer and Nightbringer are two sides of the same coin.
Eosteros' father is Astraeus. The god of Dusk (nightfall) and wind...his name means star. His mother is Eos, Dawn.
It’s so sad that the ASOIAF content creators can’t all work together. I would love to see Robert, Aziz and Lml work with Order of the Greenhand when they talk about these kind of things they are great people who don’t get a fair shake because of their theories but Jesus get over it lol this is all suppose to be for fun anyways. Or even if they worked with Preston Jacobs that would be super cool as well. All of you guys/girls have theories I like/love believe and don’t believe doesn’t mean we can’t all be friends lol
Thomas Smithson yeah disappointed how everyone has treated LML I can't even watch Roberts content anymore
omgjimmyboy Would you mind expanding just slightly on exactly why? I'm not aware of all the goings-on between these channels, I only truly know them as disparate entities.
Dostoyevskyy basically comes down to money as the usual with these sort of things
its so cool its all up. prestons' analysis goes so deep when not on a lark, that i am left feeling stupid - which rarely happens when i read a series many times! lol.
So having all the voices and views and fractals is amazing. that personalities clash and get snippy is inevitable if lamentable. They all have their own styles:
robert - polished, recycles
aziz - way deep, rambles on, has hottie partner lol
Preston - jaw dropping analysis at times, hilarious and whacky at times too.
alt shift x - a nice middle ground between almost all.
LmL and a new fellow hosting him just came to my attention - a finally a F'Aegon - vid too!
i am surfing the different versions of the sample chapters. its really an explosion of community brainstorming, that always prior used to be on forums, or in live round tables.
David yeah man I remember when it was just history of Westeros lol. The “new guy” with LML i think you’re referring to Quinn from ideas of ice and fire or something (he changed the name I believe) but he’s been around just as long as everyone else. As far as I am aware he was the first person to speculate the COTF may not be so good and maybe tricking Bran or have a sinister hidden agenda. Yeah I agree it’s nice to have a lot of different videos on the subject but I would like for them to collaborate together more and debate/talk about the different theories and which hold more weight than others because ALL of them have a bias when it comes to what they think will happen and it shows when they discuss other theories (especially Aziz) and it would be nice to have someone there who can kind of defend other theories
Given how late he was introduced and how crazy he legitimately is, I've been writing book Euron off quite a bit. I can't wait for Winds of Winter to prove me wrong.
Given the amount of gemstones/precious metals and the lack of mention of mines I have a suspicion that there's at least some folks that just go through the empty buildings in Ashai and find the stuff. Seems like a pretty solid means of income given how huge the city is. Love how it was mentioned that cities don't get any larger than they need to and a big thing that starts a city is how much food can be produced locally and as it grows importing becomes more of an option. Our own cities are the same really. There are exceptions of course but even then it's still a matter of at least water. Case and point Las Vegas Nevada and a lot of other cities that are in the middle of what's clearly a desert. Even cities like that were more like small trade posts that popped up because there was a ready water source. So it likely seemed like a great place to stop and resupply. The big factor was when the logistics of bringing food in became more feasible. Railroads were a true game changer, to say nothing of airplanes and automobiles with an accompanying road system. Great video gents.
Another dream team! Had to do some homework so I missed the live.
I always skip through the middle bit because I watch these long after the fact, and I know when to stop skipping because Robert puts his glasses back on (:
been loving listening to these lately.
All these videos made me want to read the first book again and start my collection of the ASOIAF books! One book at a time, just to understand better what is in the pages mentioned in the amazing content in front of us...
Great stream! My big question about this is: isn't it out of georges style to make something so little talked about in the books so important for the ending of the whole story? I like to see this epos as a big tragedy of human beings embellished with some magic and not a huge fantasy story.
Thank you for referencing “Anatomy of Planatos: The Great Empire of the Dawn”, published April 2 2015 by LML. I just discovered his essay. I then went to History of Westeros site and indeed there was was a wonderful collaboration with LML on this topic.
he was not on a stream explaining this to me. We collaborated on a scripted studio-recorded episode where many of the ideas were his and many of them were mine. With all due respect you are not telling the truth here.
You also never ended the quotes for the title.
R Nickerson thank you! I have fixed it
All of this is just awesome. You guys are great. What more can I say.
I'm glad I finally get to watch this. I'm sure it'll be amazing. With you two pillars of the fan community, how could it not be? I expect it will be the best discussion of the GEOTD I've ever heard.
Dragon riders of Pern.. Genetic breeding explained..
Yes!!! I was about to suggest Pern... Agreed.... I'm just starting the series but have read a lot about it... It's amazing.....
If the future GOT novels take a sci-fi angle ....we know where that came from. Pern series is not given enough credit, imho, these days.
Actually, this series is GRRM's magnum opus. He draws on a number of genres...scifi is the only one missing - so far.
Rewatching while out for a walk! 😊
Fantasy Archeology! Yesssss
I think the woman with the monkey's tail was one of the children of the forest - or at least the Essos-y equivalent of that race. She helped Azor Ahai end the Long Night, in the same way that the children of the forest helped the Last Hero end the Long Night in Westeros. The eastern and western myths of the long night are obviously very similar, so - a woman with a connection to nature, who helped Azor Ahai bring back the light? That sounds like a child of the forest. Maybe the men of the east just confused the children of the forest with monkeys.
In Deep!
57:01
"Dawn" could also be a mistranslation of "Lightbringer," or vice versa.
Lightbringer is sometimes used to refer to Lucifer. As well as "lightbearer". By several groups.
The "dark gods" described in the far East and ancient times may have an alternative, possibly even completely opposite, interpretation.
1:54:19 there is a legitimate answer to this question, and to find it, look to the Cyvasse board. A "dragon" is a metaphor for a person's ultimate weapon. In the book, many people are playing what seems to be their final, most risky strategy. That's the grand metaphor of the title
Sounds like biblical times when God would eliminate cities he deemed beyond hope.
or that were spreading 'pollution' thru the whole matrix/simulation
Great another channel that talks about Game of Thrones. All opinions matter to me.
I’ve always wondered if the decline of divinity in the emperors as time progressed has any correlation to the practice of Valyrian/Targareyn inbreeding.
Habsburg family style? Or is it too much?
Oooh interesting point.
I've often wondered if it's the Black Stone that did it
I had an epiphany that I don't like fantasy novels, but I like novels about human thought and emotion. The fantasy setting is fun, but as a genre it lacks most of what really matters in any story, and the reason Martin and Tolkien (and a few others) stand out is because they write about the human condition.
Even though this was a cluster**** of thought strings I enjoyed the 'tinfoiling' as always.
theres a lot of free association and long stretches. Its almost like 'search text for instances of "monkey"' - look! I found the word repeated more than once, there must be a connection! :/
@@mirarstudios Yeah but that's what I like to watch.
@@SporkyMcFly don't get me wrong, I love this channel and ASOIAF and tinfoiling. I'm just chiming in to say I found some of the 'pattern recognition' a bit of a stretch.
Tyrion is a Saiyan, confirmed ;)
I watched Amanda’s (the disputed landss / crowfoods daughter) vid regards the origin of dragons 👍🏼👍🏼 Magic + Wyverns + Firewyrms + human slave experiments in the Empire of the dawn created Dragons 🐉 and very likely spawned the evolution of Valyrians as a race .... this makes perfect sense to me ! Also the hypothesis that’s how Valyrians have a tolerance to heat beyond the norm and taking the next obvs step in2 how/why they’re more able to control dragons for their advantage.... you guys are so clever .... well, not as clever as GRRM obvs but pretty close 😁
Same. It makes sense that they’d see the Valyrians as family, I’d assume they have a dragony scent to them that the dragons can smell and recognize one of their own. And if they imprint on that Valyrian when they’re hatchlings like with Danny, similar to the way hatchling chicks can imprint on humans, combine that with smelling like dragons and you’ve got a very powerful bond.
1:02:25
But the Bloodstone Emperor's meteor was black and Dawn is milk-white...
before smith work.......
For to the different versions of the Long Night which would have taken place in different location, I thought that maybe there was only one Long Night and that this one took place on the territory of the empire of Dawn. After the Long Night, the empire split and several groups/peoples migrated and colonized the rest of Essos. At that time, Dorne was still attached to Essos allowing a certain group of people to settle there (ancestors of Dayne and Oldtown/Hightower as well as Dorne perhaps). This would explain why there are so many different versions of The Long Night, which has been modified and adapted over thousands of years.
After Dawn becomes Lightbringer, Jon becomes Bloodstone Emperor, starts worshipping Cthulu and causes the new Long Night
You have come a long way in live streams Robert. ✊
I really enjoyed this livestream, however I was surprised and sorry that neither of you mentioned, what is in my eyes and those of many others in the fandom, the seminal work in the fandom about the Great Empire of the Dawn, the collaboration video between Aziz & LML on the History of Westeros channel from a couple of years ago. All fans interested in this topic would really benefit from & enjoy watching it.
I understand that some relationships within the fandom community have broken down, however I think that the video could have been mentioned and a word of credit gone to LML & Durran Durrandon for their original thoughts and input into the ideas that were discussed here and in that project. Obviously I understand the ideas belong to GrrM & not content creators, so this is not a point about intellectual property rights, but in this fandom we have usually been hot on giving credit where it's due for original ideas and work done piecing information together, it's a shame to see its not happened here.
For those who are interested, I'll post the links to the fantastic resources I mentioned that would certainly complement this video, in the replies.
Big Love to all asoiaf fans & content creators 💜
Aziz & LML collaboration on the History of Westeros channel. Fantastic.
ruclips.net/video/JfDBq1c7LdA/видео.html
I remember that video and I've read the essay. Why not give credit where credit is due?
JoJo Lady Dayne , yeah no disrespect to anyone but I feel that LmL has been very hard done by , I do not know enough about the specifics of everything that went down even though some content creators and those in the fandom have offered to provide all kinds of evidence to a surprisingly eager degree. But not only do i love LmL's work but a disagreement between LmL and one individual should have created such a schism in the fandom ? with those pressuring many to choose sides and deeming LmL as some sort of pariah , seems overly harsh imo. Just a shame for such a vital cog in the content creator / fandom , who has produced some amazing theories and overall fantastic body of work has been alienated and ostracized by some the way he has been. I know you are saying about simply giving credit where it is due and no one is forcing anyone to have a certain guest on or be friends with such and such and I agree with that but overall this whole situation revealed a very nasty underbelly and duplicity at work within the fandom. Ntm , some of the faction / contingent pointing fingers at David have been accused of doing some not so nice stuff to other parts of the fandom as well , with visual real time proof on offer. Just a shame what this whole situation has revealed within the fandom.
duplicity? That's quite unfair and literally backwards. The reason none of us will work with David anymore is because he proved himself to be extremely dishonest. He's not my friend anymore, an attitude shared by many others who witnessed the things that caused this split. He dug his own grave and chiseled his own headstone.
@@HistoryofWesteros for one Aziz , definitely not referring to you in any way , but with duplicity I meant there were some of the most vocal calling for his head who have been associated with those or accused directly themselves of poor treatment towards minority and female voices within the fandom. And I also said no one should be forced to collaborate or have a guest on or be friends with anyone regardless of the reason, no issue there at all. Maybe I am too much a fan of his and his work and I guess I can't imagine he would or could do something so bad to warrant such a response to publicly try to ruin him. Again not accusing you of such , and don't be friends or work with him thats fine , no one should be forced with such choices. But I just couldn't imagine such public campaign against someone and it left a bad taste for one with those who have been accused of treating other parts of the fandom badly themselves and the efforts in such a public way offering emails , texts , proof etc. I personally did not like how it went down. Don't work with him , don't be friends with him if anyone so chooses but the public smear campaign from some I personally did not care for. Don't work with someone fair enough but some efforts to literally take someone down in such a public manner , I did not like.
*A bit of a huge discrepancy:* The 5 forts were created 1,000 years ago, because the people of the time period were dealing with the Others BEFORE the Long Night.
If that is the case, then the Children of the Forest, didn't create the Others. The Children of the Forest's war with Men, happened much later.
The CoF may have made this particular Night King seen in the show, but the Others were around a lot longer and the death of this Night King doesn't mean that the Others were defeated.
Also, how would the CoF know how to create the Others, unless they had seen it before?
So similar to the concept of a Lord of Light (Good), there is a concept of a Lion of Night (Evil) and these two forces have been at war from the very beginning of life.
Therefore, the Night King isn't a Ruler at all, he is a General, and his death doesn't mean the death of the Others. He can be replaced.
The Lion of Night is the ruler, and when groups of people such as the The Bloodstone Emperor and The Children of the Forest, foolishly call upon him, the Lion of Night sends a General and it's Army into the world. Which usually spells disaster for the summoner and everyone else.
My theory is that Stygai was the pleasure palace of the Bloodstone Emperor, like Sunmerhall was for Targaryans, where he conducted all his blasphemous rites. The source of the doom of Asshai
I would love a video on House Tarley!!
I just want to say to Robert AND everyone who supports him. Thank you! Im not in a position to donate $ to my favorite Internet personalities, but the people that do give support to them is very appreciated. Having this free content makes reading books and watching shows more enjoyable. Catching up on all these videos is awesome. Thank you Robert and your supporters!
What is the Bloodstone Emperor is actually telling us about John. He comes back to life (assuming because it’s such a huge plot point of the show that it probably came from GRRM) so Necromancy; he worships a stone from the sky (he might use Dawn), canablism might occur in the North (which we’ve already seen in Stannis’ army). I know it’s a stretch but John kills Dany in the show which again I think is a major plot point from GRRM. I think he does parallel Euron, but maybe it’s a Red Herring.
Jon's parallels are with Azor Ahai
I think GRRM got a bit carried away with Essos history and is going to have quite a job orchestrating it all. Radical fractal expansion into mirror-image ancient orientalist resonances on Essos risks the integrity of the fairly simple poetic symbolism in the Song of Ice and Fire.
in deep aziz! awesome a two-fer
The long age of ancient emperors/kings/heroes are from the real world too. If you go back to Sumerian and Babylonian ancient history you'll find these stories. Personally, I think they might have ruled for 10.000 days instead of the coming year as that would make more sense.
Reminds me of the Great Wall film and the Tao Tei
I don't think the great empire of the dawn ever existed per se. I think Danny's dream was a manipulation and the church of starry wisdom and other forces use this mythology to their advantage when it suits them. I don't think either the base of the high tower or the 5 forts were built by this "Great Empire" and for the most part it's grandiose story is an eastern mythos that many use to explain both the long night and the remnants of high technology that litter Essos.
So who built the five forts?
Do we know which direction the 5 forts faces? Was it protecting the assai side from the east or the east side from assai?
It'd be cool if Meera saves Jon by killing Darkstar.
Or Bran.
I prefer to believe that the rulers of Asshai rode on a species of powerful flying proto-dragons (not the Wyverns of Sothyros, but a larger more powerful armored relative that inhabited ancient Westeros and Essos), but that the first true fire-breathing dragons were created in Valyria using blood magic to cross those beasts with Firewyrms from the Fourteen Flames.
Then how do structures we know the Valyrians needed dragons for exist from a time before Valyria itself even existed?
could Asshai have been built as big as it was so when the inevitable evil arrives it could be a fortress for the remaining humans?
and if the Children of the forest are who created the others that would explain why “children” can’t live in Asshai..
Lol royce waymar says "dance with me" to the wights.. it's obvious that it means a battle with dragons... that's why it's the title.
En depth gek
How is LML not on this stream?
There was some drama around LML about a year ago. Many people in the community have distanced themselves.
Opal Rose what kind of drama?
@@evilmerv4645
I don't know a lot of details, but apparently some things happened between LML and Sanri at a GoT convention last year. And there was a disagreement about money from joint streams they did. They both aired some dirty laundry online. There were accusations of lying and other bad behavior. LML has been shunned by most of the rest of the community and lost tons of subscribers. There is a thread of comments on this video that talks more about it. History of Westeros (the guest on this stream) even jumps in.
IDG!!!
❤
They keep wanting to unite Jon with the sword Dawn but since they are both unrepentant R+L=J advocates suffering from deep confirmation bias, the notion that Jon is Ashara's son and possibly the legal heir to both Starfall and the Office of Sword of the Morning just doesn't register. I love these two but they just won't entertaining crossing that N+A=J bridge until George smacks them in the head with it.
Too be fair everyone in the books keeps saying how honorable and honest Ned is. And it seems to be so focused that it appears as if there’s no way Ned is Jon’s father. Then you also have to factor in Ashara’s “suicide” then. Why commit it if she has a whole baby boy? Then you have to also rectify the timeline of when Jon was conceived . He’s said to be the same age as Robb. Robb was conceived right before the war in Ned’s marriage to Cat. When did Ned have time to conceive Jon with Ashara? Also the Daynes love Ned but if he stole Jon from Ashara as soon as he was born I just don’t see them liking him them much. N+A=J would destroy Ned as a character after everyone built him up as honorable.
Jon snow is really ashara dains son, faegon is reallyrheagar and lyannas son
I think it would be courteous of you both to acknowledge the originator of many of the ideas you discuss here, LuciferMeansLightbringer. You are both well aware that you are discussing his theories as I have watched you both discuss them with him on livestreams in the past, before the knives came out. Robert, you seem like a reasonable bloke and you stayed out of all the nastiness (publicly at least), so I hope you can understand why crediting LmL is the right thing to do.
I second the motion that LML should be credited. It is churlish to do otherwise. You all don’t have to be friends, but it is unprofessional not to acknowledge his existence when it is clearly warranted.
@@thupple Well said. No-one is expecting reconciliation, just professional ethics and a bit of common courtesy.
Thirded! I've posted the links to the collaboration video & the original 2015 essay above. Durran Durrandon also deserves credit.
That asshole lied to me and almost caused me to do great harm to my own reputation until I figured out the lie.
I'm never mentioning his name on a stream again for any reason, good or bad.
@@tentaclepawn1548 Stop calling them his ideas. They aren't. As I already told you, and have the scripts to prove, I wrote far more of this stuff than you give credit for, and I mostly stuck to that stuff. For example, we never even alluded to, yet alone mentioned, his moon meteor theory.
Trump built the Five Forts, and the Lion of Night paid for it.
Robert... please don’t listen to the whining. This is GRRMs material. People need to MOVE ON with their lives. Really. Move on. This isn’t copyrighted material except BY GEORGE. And we don’t mention a-holes...EVER AGAIN. Get used to it. If only people really knew how this grown man behaved behind the scenes they wouldn’t mention him either.
I really enjoyed this stream. Aziz is a great guest. Please don’t pay any mind to this drama. Ignore and keep doing your thing.
@Bernie L I don't care how he behaves behind the scenes. I'm in this fandom for discussion of ASIOAF, not wholesome personalities. And this isn't anything to do with copyright or legal issues - it's about acknowledging the hard work of others. Don't want to mention him? Don't make a video on his ideas.
Ser Tommard Long they’re not just his ideas. He doesn’t own geotd. Every time a movie is made that has been influenced by another film the before mentioned film ISNT mentioned. If we were going on what someone else has already said in the asoiaf community then we spend the whole time citing some random reddit user. It’s really not HIS. Just STOP. And I absolutely think it’s important to know who and what you associate yourself with. I have integrity!!!! This is so dumb. It’s a fucking RUclips video on fantasy world building. Good grief. It’s not high art. Lol. All theories at this point are just a melting pot. Hardly something to stake a claim over.
@@tentaclepawn1548 wow you don't care if someone is a criminal or screws over the people he works with. As long as you like what he says? He himself constantly used others ideas without crediting the source. Unlike this situation where they were quoting text. Move the fuck on. I put him out of my mind and moved on but if he wants to air it all out in public again, which none of us want, he can keep taking shots at other creators. He moves in the shadows more snake than dragon.
@@LadyShar A criminal? I'm sorry, were legal proceedings brought against him? Was he arrested? Did he go to court? It's a big claim to call someone a criminal. And for the record, yes I would 100% still watch his channel if I discovered he was a criminal. H.P. Lovecraft was a bigoted, racist homophobe, but his stories are fantastic. Philip K. Dick was by some accounts an abusive, nasty piece of work, but he is probably my favourite sci-fi author of all time. Caravaggio was an actual murderer, but hot damn are his paintings beautiful. God, what a dreary place the world would be if all art was judged on the personality of the artist.
I would certainly reconsider if I believed LmL was plagiarising others, as that is an issue of a different sort, but I have never seen any evidence of this myself. Do you have examples?
@@BernadetteLangeArt Artistic influences in something like a film are not the same as plagiarism. I don't want to come across as pretentious for comparing youtube to art (maybe I already have - whoops!) but making a youtube video or writing an essay is a creative endeavour.
To frame it all a different way, imagine this is all taking place 30 years ago before the internet, amongst a group of academics discussing Shakespeare. No one is denying that Shakespeare and Shakespeare alone wrote the plays (actually some people do deny this, but I digress!). But if one academic wants to use another academic's ideas ABOUT Shakespeare's work, they would need to reference that source properly. If they don't, they are plagiarising the other academic and could face legal action. That is how plagiarism works.
Saying "it's all GRRM's" is missing the point. Sure, no-one is expecting Harvard referencing on a youtube vid, but a hat-tip to the originator of the ideas you are discussing isn't too much to ask, no matter what your personal feelings on them are. If you can't bring yourself to do that, make a video on something else.
And I get what you are saying about the futility of trawling reddit to make sure no-one has come up with your idea before. But in this case we are talking about a published essay and a guest slot on Aziz's channel discussing these ideas. No reddit trawling necessary.
Dannys third fire is kings landing
The books will not do what the show did. I bet money.
@@Richard_Nickerson this is a prophecy in the books. Danny visions at the house of the undying.
@@danielp.2236
She doesn't have to be the one to burn it for it to burn.
@@Richard_Nickerson The books can result in what the show did but in different context, so yeah she will most likely burn King's Landing but it won't come out of blue like in the show did...
@@constantinetranos2225
Yeah, that literally falls under what I said...
Robert looks bored and annoyed
Probably because Aziz seems high on cocaine or probably speed. Not nearly at thr level of intelligence or articulation as Robert.
@@catladycats5417
He's just loud. I don't think you've ever seen someone on speed or coke.
Sekiro explained
No mlm🙄
Bad sound ;-/
Book Euron is arguably the most Interesting character in the entire series
Still hate what the show did to the character. He went from being the most terrifying and dynamic characters, and was reduced to "a finger in the bum."
@@shemac1482 yup, very disappointing. At least we can look forward to the next book. Euron should be a major player.
I wish someone would do a “TimeStamp” that would be great!!
Go right ahead bud. I believe in you
Daylin Roegner is gonna do the timestamp? Wow! Thanks, man!
Lmao Aziz is such a fraud. The fact that so many in the thrones fandom fetishize this guy like he’s a celebrity is laughable. I’ve been to each con of thrones and nothing makes this guy an “expert” other than he’s read all the source material, like a few million other people. “His” theory totally stolen from LML
Oh, come on. I don't care what GRR says... the world of Ice & Fire is definitely a science fiction novel, not fantasy. The ancient people (first settlers of the planet), the Long Night, (comet impact), origins of the dragons (genetic engineering), it's all explainable as Clarke's 3rd Law; "any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
The way aziz talks about women's bodies. Gross. Her "ordeal" and a giggle. It's called a miscarriage or abortion. Not "ordeal with her pregnancy" god this guy is annoying. Just baubles, can't get to a point, goes off on tangents. Very uninterrupting. I hope it will be a long time before IDG fans have to endure this again. Nobody needs a nearly 2.5 hour stream like this.
Aziz has alwAys fucking sucked. He parrots shit that far greater minds thought up and thinks hes a,genius.
Very uncool move on the part of @historyofwesteros who seems to be high as fuck during this stream. I am not even a fan or follower of LML, and I totally believe what he did is true, in fact he is a douche. But, he is a great theorist, and even IDG used to say he was one of his favorite people of all time to have on there because his ideas and theories are solid and well researched. I am a patron of IDG but if this Aziz guy is a regular, I will stop.
If you know In Deep Geek and NOT Aziz........then you are showing how new you are to the scene and I doubt they care
What if the sword DarkSister is made from the black meteor and is imbued with the soul of the slain empress ?