This is the most satisfying RUclips "documentary" video I've ever seen. Thank you for making this, TheRpgFanatic. The Dragon Quest series is incredibly good, and I wish I could just go on further adventures in the Dragon Quest IV style.
I've never felt that the term JRPG has ever been used to insult a game. But if it has, I don't think that by itself makes the term racist, as the majority of people only use it to refer to an rpg made in Japan, like the term anime is often used to refer to Japanese cartoons. It's only a statement about the country of origin and not the content itself. But people use these terms in different ways.
Thank you for standing up for RPG games made from Japan. To understand that Japanese RPGs are just RPGs made in Japan, often having the artstyle of Anime that is unique to Japan. The console style RPGs tend to be like that, considering Japan dominated the console market in the late 80s. Anime covers allot of genres, as well as genres of games and not one individual genre.
This is by no mean an attack on your show, I enjoy watching your show, I just total disagree with you on this on point. A few points, if JRPG is racist so is the term Mexican food. JRPG just happen to refer to a style the originated in Japan, just Mexican food is set of styles cuisines that originated in Mexico. Saying that using a term JRPG implies that a JRPG can not be made in America or a western style RPG be made in Japan is non sense. Does that mean there are no Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, ect restaurants in America, or if I am in Japan and I get McDonalds I'm now eating Japanese food? Also by the same logic does that mean Computer RPG's only exist in Computer and Console only on Console. So What about games like Final Fantasy 7 which I can now get on steam, and Skyrim which was release for both PC and Console? Last the term JRPG, it has been used as long if not longer the Console RPG, maybe not by you, but growing up I always used this term and not Console RPG. I also used the term water fountain growing up, and turns out people in the mid west use the term water bubbler. In any case I think the term JRPG is a more common term and even has it's own wikipedia page, I could not find the term Console RPG defined on the Internet. In any case argue over a term like this is like argue over the definition of art, the only important thing is if I use the term JRPG, or you use the Console RPG, do we understand each other. If the answer is yes than who cares what term we use. Unless you think it is racist but then so would be the term Japanimation.
Why does this "Mexican food" argument keep popping up? I've refuted it many times in these comment sections. tl:dr The Japanese did not invent things like turn-based battles, colorful artwork or linear games. The term "JRPG" gets applied incorrectly to describe features a game has, usually in a disparaging way. The only correct way to use the monicker JRPG is when talking about any RPG made in Japan, and not describing any particular game mechanics it might have, but that isn't how most people use the label. Many people use the label to insult the game, "oh it has anime art on the cover, it's just another JRPG." the same way they'd say "...another Metroidvania" or "...another Mega Man clone". You can't assess what elements the game will have based on the fact it came from Japan. That's the kind of racism I'm talking about here.
Ok sorry for the length, I just wanted to address each point. First I love JRPG, they are my favorite genre of game. And genre is a acceptable term seeing that it only means that I have some way of grouping artistic works together, be it style, region, time period,ect(It, like a lot of words, does not really have a rigorous definition but rather an intuitive one, kinda like the terms class and set in axiomatic set theory.) The reason I brought up Mexican food, is because of the claim that JRPG is a racist term. Another example if I say I hate Bollywood movie because they are cheesy is that racist? Just because you happen to have strong negative opinion about a genre be it food, art(Visual not general), or video games, and that genre happens to be associated with a region or ethnic group does not make it racist(If you dislike whatever we are talking about solely on the fact it is from a region or ethnic group, like hating rap because it is "too hood", that would be racist) Also like I said what you call a Console RPG is pretty much what I've called a JRPG since I was a kid(Probably because I played Eye of the Beholder and Final Fantasy on the SNES). And it's true the Japanese did not invent what I would consider all the traits commonly found in a JRPG(Focus on story, Linear-ish gameplay(FF6 is not completely linear),turn base combat,)* They also didn't invent deep frying, but tempura is still Japanese. What you basically arguing is that a term you grew up with is more correct than a term I grew up with. I don't go around and tell people in Chicago it's called Soda not Pop, because I know what they mean and they know what I mean. Lastly it's true that you can't assess what elements a RPG has just by the fact it is made in Japan, but you can't assess what elements a RPG has just because it is on a console. But when you say console RPG, I know you don't mean games like Dragons Dogma, Arcana for the SNES, or really and RPG from From soft, because they were release on consoles. Just like you know that I would not call any these JRPG's just because Capcom, HAL, and From are all Japanese. I can understand someone being upset of a reviewer for writing off a game as being just another JRPG and not trying because of such, but the same can be said if they used the term console RPG just well. But JRPG/Console RPG are not everyone's cup of tea( in fact most people who don't like the genre usually just call them RPGs), and since RPG genre (of any sorts) is one of the oldest it is not surprising that some people find it a bit stale. Just like I write off most sports games without trying them, *This is not a complete list, and not all of these element have to be in a JRPG for me consider a RPG a JRPG .
mage davee You can't access what elements a game has just because it's on a console. Dragon's Dogma is a console only title that plays very differently than Ni No Kuni, even though both were made by Japanese developers. I developed my own terminology for indexing RPG videogames that is used by my website database www.rpgfanatic.net/rpg_fanatics_blog.html?number=270 and go down to the section marked "Games Wiki Style Guide" for explanations. It's more accurate and less prone to confusion than a term like JRPG that tries to shoehorn thousands of games under one bannister that have very different traits not always in common with one another.
I might have made a typo, but the point you are making about console RPG and Dragon Dogma was my point, saying a game is on a Console tells very little, just like saying a game is from Japan, but that is not what we mean when you say Console RPG, and I say JRPG. We can argue what is actual a Console RPG/JRPG, but we at least have an idea of what we mean when we use these term(It may or may not be exactly the same but this is true for almost any classification system). Also having a good nomenclature consistency is also good for type of system you have, and it's probably really good too looking up games, which you do not have title for(Which is really cool). However it is really over complicated if I just want to talk about what I think about JRPG's, or describe a Game like Ni No Kuni is three words, just like saying Mario is a plat former, it does not incorporate everything or even that much about the game, but it is a starting point. When we classify things like games we basically do something like Multiple Inheritance. So game can have multiple descriptors like, Secret of Mana is a action JRPG. It might be a little sloppy sometimes, but it allows to describe new games don't fit nicely in what we already defined on the fly. I guess I just don't understand why you have bone to pick with this term, if you understand what is meant by it does really matter if they use console RPG or JRPG, and you system highly specialized an unless you are RPG veteran you might not know the difference between ATB STB(I actual call this Command Time Battle CTB) Also your system is very good, but how does it handle things that don't fit nicely in those categories, you should check Dragon Force for the Saturn(great game), it's not your database(I don't think so but it should be). The game is a Tactical/Strategy(The is some resource management) RPG where you fight by choosing a unit, and a number of reserves, they charge and who ever loses all of their reserves losses the battle. Don't think either wargame battle system really describes this system.
A lot of people never realized that Japanese gamers got into RPGs from the early computer RPGs like Ultima and Wizardry. Japan in fact still has a craving for the dungeon crawlers since any of the Wizardry games that came out after Wizardry 8 on the Pc over 20 years ago were all from Japan not the west. Dragon Quest definitely made the genre more friendly to the masses and was one of the major turning points in the popularity of the genre.
@Priest4hire And by dungeons as a mechanic, I'm talking about how very few "dungeons" in games are actually mazes. Most of them are just a map with enemies on it and the objective is to navigate through it for some reason.
It falls under the shooter game genre. Just because someone at Wikipedia decided to name their article "Shooter game" doesn't mean that is what everyone must call it. Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information.
In my opinion, JRPG isn't racist at all. Just like Western RPG isn't racist, and it helps me in finding specific types of games I would like to play. Seiken Densetsu 3 is a JRPG as much as Persona is a JRPG. But when it comes to terms like "light rpg" and "console rpg" -- which, let's be honest, no one uses -- it is WAY too broad a term. When I'm looking for games like SD3 I don't want to see games like Skyrim or Fallout. That is why subgenres exist, and just because you feel they aren't "authentic" enough or go "too deep" doesn't mean they aren't helpful to the rest of the world.
@lsdpot67 I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Phantasy Star came out in December 20th, 1987. DQ came out in May 27th, 1986. I think you are confused with the North American release dates for these games. These games originally came out in Japan.
It may not make grammatical sense, but that's what happens with genre labels. RPG has become a label to describe a genre of games that descend from tabletop RPGs. This is not unusual with words. For example, "modern art" doesn't describe art right now but rather art created from the late 1880s to the 1970s. Art created right now is considered contemporary art.
@Priest4hire A dungeon is a game mechanic, not a specific location. In DQ you don't spend all your time in dungeons either. Secondly, the ORIGINAL VERSIONS of several Ultima were shown in the video. Aside from having letters, the menus have nothing in common with DQ. DQ has more in common with The Black Onyx.
I feel like these videos were very "ahead of their time" and there wasn't a lot of understanding about the history and origins of Japanese RPGs when this was made. While the debate about whether or not JRPG is a valid genre name still goes on, it at least feels like people are a lot more informed on the subject these days. While I don't entirely agree with the tone here thanks for doing your part in getting information out there.
In Ultima you travel an overworld, visit towns, talk to NPCs, and search for the items and knowledge needed to defeat the grand foozle. Both start you off by a castle and town with a king that plays a central role. In Ultima IV (1985), the king sets up the journey you must undertake. It was Ultima that had signpost NPCs and different monsters hiding under bridges. From what I've played of it, [i]TBO[/i] has none of these. How many pre-DQ RPGs did? Or even used a repeating tile engine?
@WesFX7 No. JRPG and WRPG were created by racist game reviewers a few years ago who have a bias toward BioWare computer rpgs. The term Console-style has existed since the 80's. If you spent any amount of time communicating with fellow gamers in the 90's, you'd have came across the term. It's still used on GameFAQs.
I feel compelled to add that although RPG originated as Role-Playing Game, it has changed to be a word of itself. It has changed and shifted... Often, RPG and Role-Playing Game are used in different contexts. For example, when I hear people talk about the latter, it's usually the like of D&D, or other tabletop games, where-as RPG is usually referring to Skyrim and its ilk. Not condoning the way it's used or anything... I still use it without the added game, but that's the reason why.
@runawaychild666 I'd like to one day write an encyclopedia that has articles on every notable / commercial computer rpg game ever made, but to do so I need to improve my Japanese a lot in order to fully research the topic.
@Priest4hire There are hidden items in DQ you're supposed to use the commands to find. Ultima did not have a command menu; you used a wide number of keyboard keys to do everything which are only listed in the instruction manual. BO at least showed what keys to press on the screen. Ultima having other similarities to DQ isn't something anyone refutes, as DQ is well known to be a refined version of earlier computer rpgs. Also, how many Nintendo games do you think had tile engines?
Very informative I started my RPG playing in the 90s so I didn't have much experience with the older games like wizardry or the older ultima ganes just final fantasy and dragon quest I started with dragon quest 6.
I've played early Wizardry games, early Ultima games, and Dragon Quest. I remember thinking that Wizardry and Ultima were for adults, and Dragon Quest was for kids. Dragon Quest might be simpler, but it also requires less thought. Games that require less thought aren't necessarily "works of genius."
A “game with less thought” is a broad statement. DQ still requires understanding the game, the enemies, dungeons, where to go next, how to fight and counter enemies, etc. Sure compared to some old games that were difficult, it is simpler, but only because it streamlined certain things and made things a bit more forgiving. Just cause a game is simpler doesn’t mean it’s automatically meant for idiots or kids.
@Crust218 They are if the designs are more intuitive. Take for example Google or Facebook. Search engines and social networks were around long before those services but Facebook and Google made them more intuitive to use. That's the point I'm making with DQ compared to the older games.
@MrBacchus18 Yes, although much of this stuff has come about simply from being a gamer for years and spent time on the internet in the mid-90s. I've watched the abandoning of console-style for JRPG in the media and it ticks me off.
We were just discussing this on another channel the other day.. It seems as though the younger gen is literally obsessed with the term jrpg.. I suppose it started about 15 years ago or so or at least that’s what I noticed.. What I do find immensely inconsistent is the little cutesy Japanese platformers are not called JPF’s.. Japanese anime fighting games are not called JFighters.. Fire Emblem and XCom distinctly different region and style SRPGs yet still get lumped together.. So in essence it doesn’t make any kind of logical sense why there must absolutely be segregation in the RPG field.. If they really wanted to differentiate why not just go by Classical RPG or Modern RPG? Why does region so dearly matter only as far as RPGs??
@TheRpgFanatic I apologize for my inability to work the comments. Consider four of the menu commands in DQ: Talk, Take, Door and Stairs. All of them are clunky; especially 'Stairs'.. Why have a menu command for going up and down stairs instead of just walking over them? Ultima did it that way. In fact, there's a direct analog for all those commands in Ultima. Even standing on chests and using Take (Get in Ultima).
@piromaniac9999 I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Bu the DQ series has -always- been the Dragon Quest series. Enix just couldn't use the name in the US because there was a roleplaying game called DQ at the time. That's why they used Dragon Warrior for the US.
I didn't get my information from Wikipedia, I just observed that everything I browsed all genres didn't have "Game" attached to their category. RPG is the only category with 'Game' attached to it's name in the category. Seems kind of redundant seeing how we know we're playing a game. I've heard people say "Skyrim is the best RPG GAME of all time." What they are really saying is "...Role-Playing Game game of all time." Was not aware people used Wiki as a reliable source...
RPGs are D&D. Even games to this day, if it has RPG elements, then look out for the dwarves, elves, and hobbits, who are probably a fighting man, magic user and thief. What separates RPGs from JRPGs is the culture clash. Anime is just early Disney cartoons with those distinct Japanese eccentricities and mannerisms you see it all their stuff. Same way all old American monster movies are pretty much the same, while all old kaiju films are totally different, but all kaiju films are also pretty much the same.
@putinblood Doesn't matter if it's a "slang term". The point is IT'S RACIST. The term was invented by Western game reviewers who HATE certain games like the Final Fantasy series. The term does not describe game mechanics, only superficial things like art style.
Oh man I just watched another video like this one and he speaks of Wizardry and Ultima being responsible for Rpg games as we know them today so I Googled Wizardry to see if it was on console but nothing actually came up. So yeh I'm exited!!!! I even want to buy Ultima and Wizardry on NES just as collectors items or even PC copies would be better though I'm a console gamer at heart so I'll try find them. I want FF1 and DQ1 too.
Another note is the term RPG in itself. If you play Battlefield you would say I'm playing a shooting game but it falls under the Shooter genre and not the Shooter Game genre. So is Role-Playing GAME necessary? If anything it should stand for Role-Playing Grinding.
Thanks for the kind words and enjoying my channel. Sadly now that this channel is no longer in an MCN YT has demonetized most of my gaming videos, which is why I stopped focusing on this channel.
I'm enjoying your videos quite a bit, but your pronunciation is driving me nuts. Anime = ani-may, Onyx = On-icks, Melee = may lay, etc. I appreciate your knowledge of the genre, but criticizing someone for their stance on titles/labels and whatnot seems rather unfair when you can't be bothered to say words (which are fairly common nowadays) correctly. Just some constructive criticism. Otherwise, good job. I'm glad someone is focusing on RPGs, as it's a genre that demands educated critics.
Maybe because what if Americans make a JRPG? Its kinda not fair because it'd be American Role Play Game or ARPG...Still not racist really? Lol I'm just tossing a dumb idea around, is that what he meant maybe? That classing the game style as JRPG is racist because the genre is broader than just one country. I dunno lol
@BroadwayRonMexico All of the Wizardry and many of Ultima games are turn based, menu combat. Same with others like Bard's Tale. And some of the licensed D&D games like Temple of Elemental Evil (2003). The LOTR PC game I reviewed. The Magic Candle I & II. And so on. Then look at "JRPGs" like the Mana series, or Star Ocean, or Tales of, and so on. Dragonslayer. The idea that JRPGs are mostly turn based and WRPGs are action based is just plain wrong.
I fully agree with what you're saying and your research is clearly well done and well cited but you gotta calm down dude JRPG is just a term used by people who don't know this or want to easily generalize light RPG's and games using the same style. I'd say half of the time it's used out of convience as opposed to ignorance. Aside from that I enjoyed the video's, great job on them.
@TheRpgFanatic Actually, now that I think about is my dialect is probably unique even for an Oregonian since I was primarily raised by my grandparents, who were 1st generation German-Americans that grew up in North Dakota.
I always HATED when Spells used random characters for spell names. Why couldn't a spell be called something simple like.... "FBALL" instead of "Zyrgurys"? Then having to remember these names associated with what they did? That was a turn off for me and I am a hardcore RPG'er myself.
@TheRpgFanatic Dragonquest=dragon warrior Dragon warrior after dragon warrior 3 became dragon quest and it stayed that way. And ultima is alot harder and how easy it is to die is insane. Plus you need to remember where to get steal and how the menu system works you can die. In ultima 3 exodus:I was going to ambrosia and got killed because i ran into a demon or something similar because of poison attack. It is really annoying in ultima 3. ultima 7 and ultima 8 are real time and different.
@TheRpgFanatic Actually it does. The biggest difference lies within the combat system in each. WRPGs are action-oriented with combat usually being rooted in hack-and-slash or shooter games, whereas JRPGs are turn-based, menu combat. Secondly, JRPGs follow a linear, distinct narrative, while WRPGs are usually more open-ended for exploration, etc. There have been Japanese-produced games that are considered WRPGs (Demon's Soul comes to mind) and vice versa (Anacronox, Laxius)
... You are wrong. Dragon Quest NES - May 1986 gamefaqs.gamespot.com/nes/563408-dragon-warrior/images Dragon Quest MSX - Nov 1986 gamefaqs.gamespot.com/msx/918072-dragon-quest/images
@@KeyleeTamirian Aint nothing better than proving a years old necro'd comment wrong, is there? Maybe if you're lucky you can dig up that 12 year old comment that a user wrongly stated that the US release of Super Mario Bros 2 was the official world wide sequel and that Doki Doki Panic is an urban legend.
At this point I think the "Console-style RPG" folks have lost that battle, unfortunately. GameFAQs for example has long since changed those genre names to WRPG and JRPG. I don't think it's necessarily racist to name a genre after its country of origin, though. Just so long as people DO understand that there are Western JRPGs and Eastern WRPGs.
@tehlastflax Tetsuya Nomura did a very angry rant about how much he hated the term at E3 2010 I believe. Barely anyone covered it, sadly. That's the state of game journalism right now unfortunately. But don't think for a second that Japanese like being called "Japanese", or want their games to be pigeonholed with such a label. They should be defined by mechanics not nation of origin.
JRPG as a term has been around since the late 80s and early 90s. Calm down dude it is a perfectly sound term and not in the slight bit rascist. American cars and french food are as rascist as japanese role playing games. Spoiled what was a good video in places. Try not to be so pendantic and angry.
This is a pretty good video about my favorite game genre, the JRPG.
This is the most satisfying RUclips "documentary" video I've ever seen. Thank you for making this, TheRpgFanatic. The Dragon Quest series is incredibly good, and I wish I could just go on further adventures in the Dragon Quest IV style.
I've never felt that the term JRPG has ever been used to insult a game. But if it has, I don't think that by itself makes the term racist, as the majority of people only use it to refer to an rpg made in Japan, like the term anime is often used to refer to Japanese cartoons. It's only a statement about the country of origin and not the content itself. But people use these terms in different ways.
Thank you for standing up for RPG games made from Japan. To understand that Japanese RPGs are just RPGs made in Japan, often having the artstyle of Anime that is unique to Japan.
The console style RPGs tend to be like that, considering Japan dominated the console market in the late 80s.
Anime covers allot of genres, as well as genres of games and not one individual genre.
I stumbled upon this vid and I want to say it makes me proud to still be an "Old School" Gamer. Excellent job! On to part Deux!
This is by no mean an attack on your show, I enjoy watching your show, I just total disagree with you on this on point.
A few points, if JRPG is racist so is the term Mexican food. JRPG just happen to refer to a style the originated in Japan, just Mexican food is set of styles cuisines that originated in Mexico. Saying that using a term JRPG implies that a JRPG can not be made in America or a western style RPG be made in Japan is non sense. Does that mean there are no Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, ect restaurants in America, or if I am in Japan and I get McDonalds I'm now eating Japanese food? Also by the same logic does that mean Computer RPG's only exist in Computer and Console only on Console. So What about games like Final Fantasy 7 which I can now get on steam, and Skyrim which was release for both PC and Console? Last the term JRPG, it has been used as long if not longer the Console RPG, maybe not by you, but growing up I always used this term and not Console RPG. I also used the term water fountain growing up, and turns out people in the mid west use the term water bubbler. In any case I think the term JRPG is a more common term and even has it's own wikipedia page, I could not find the term Console RPG defined on the Internet. In any case argue over a term like this is like argue over the definition of art, the only important thing is if I use the term JRPG, or you use the Console RPG, do we understand each other. If the answer is yes than who cares what term we use. Unless you think it is racist but then so would be the term Japanimation.
Why does this "Mexican food" argument keep popping up? I've refuted it many times in these comment sections. tl:dr The Japanese did not invent things like turn-based battles, colorful artwork or linear games. The term "JRPG" gets applied incorrectly to describe features a game has, usually in a disparaging way. The only correct way to use the monicker JRPG is when talking about any RPG made in Japan, and not describing any particular game mechanics it might have, but that isn't how most people use the label. Many people use the label to insult the game, "oh it has anime art on the cover, it's just another JRPG." the same way they'd say "...another Metroidvania" or "...another Mega Man clone". You can't assess what elements the game will have based on the fact it came from Japan. That's the kind of racism I'm talking about here.
Ok sorry for the length, I just wanted to address each point.
First I love JRPG, they are my favorite genre of game. And genre is a acceptable term seeing that it only means that I have some way of grouping artistic works together, be it style, region, time period,ect(It, like a lot of words, does not really have a rigorous definition but rather an intuitive one, kinda like the terms class and set in axiomatic set theory.)
The reason I brought up Mexican food, is because of the claim that JRPG is a racist term. Another example if I say I hate Bollywood movie because they are cheesy is that racist? Just because you happen to have strong negative opinion about a genre be it food, art(Visual not general), or video games, and that genre happens to be associated with a region or ethnic group does not make it racist(If you dislike whatever we are talking about solely on the fact it is from a region or ethnic group, like hating rap because it is "too hood", that would be racist)
Also like I said what you call a Console RPG is pretty much what I've called a JRPG since I was a kid(Probably because I played Eye of the Beholder and Final Fantasy on the SNES). And it's true the Japanese did not invent what I would consider all the traits commonly found in a JRPG(Focus on story, Linear-ish gameplay(FF6 is not completely linear),turn base combat,)* They also didn't invent deep frying, but tempura is still Japanese. What you basically arguing is that a term you grew up with is more correct than a term I grew up with. I don't go around and tell people in Chicago it's called Soda not Pop, because I know what they mean and they know what I mean.
Lastly it's true that you can't assess what elements a RPG has just by the fact it is made in Japan, but you can't assess what elements a RPG has just because it is on a console. But when you say console RPG, I know you don't mean games like Dragons Dogma, Arcana for the SNES, or really and RPG from From soft, because they were release on consoles. Just like you know that I would not call any these JRPG's just because Capcom, HAL, and From are all Japanese.
I can understand someone being upset of a reviewer for writing off a game as being just another JRPG and not trying because of such, but the same can be said if they used the term console RPG just well. But JRPG/Console RPG are not everyone's cup of tea( in fact most people who don't like the genre usually just call them RPGs), and since RPG genre (of any sorts) is one of the oldest it is not surprising that some people find it a bit stale. Just like I write off most sports games without trying them,
*This is not a complete list, and not all of these element have to be in a JRPG for me consider a RPG a JRPG .
mage davee You can't access what elements a game has just because it's on a console. Dragon's Dogma is a console only title that plays very differently than Ni No Kuni, even though both were made by Japanese developers. I developed my own terminology for indexing RPG videogames that is used by my website database www.rpgfanatic.net/rpg_fanatics_blog.html?number=270 and go down to the section marked "Games Wiki Style Guide" for explanations. It's more accurate and less prone to confusion than a term like JRPG that tries to shoehorn thousands of games under one bannister that have very different traits not always in common with one another.
I might have made a typo, but the point you are making about console RPG and Dragon Dogma was my point, saying a game is on a Console tells very little, just like saying a game is from Japan, but that is not what we mean when you say Console RPG, and I say JRPG. We can argue what is actual a Console RPG/JRPG, but we at least have an idea of what we mean when we use these term(It may or may not be exactly the same but this is true for almost any classification system).
Also having a good nomenclature consistency is also good for type of system you have, and it's probably really good too looking up games, which you do not have title for(Which is really cool). However it is really over complicated if I just want to talk about what I think about JRPG's, or describe a Game like Ni No Kuni is three words, just like saying Mario is a plat former, it does not incorporate everything or even that much about the game, but it is a starting point. When we classify things like games we basically do something like Multiple Inheritance. So game can have multiple descriptors like, Secret of Mana is a action JRPG. It might be a little sloppy sometimes, but it allows to describe new games don't fit nicely in what we already defined on the fly.
I guess I just don't understand why you have bone to pick with this term, if you understand what is meant by it does really matter if they use console RPG or JRPG, and you system highly specialized an unless you are RPG veteran you might not know the difference between ATB STB(I actual call this Command Time Battle CTB)
Also your system is very good, but how does it handle things that don't fit nicely in those categories, you should check Dragon Force for the Saturn(great game), it's not your database(I don't think so but it should be). The game is a Tactical/Strategy(The is some resource management) RPG where you fight by choosing a unit, and a number of reserves, they charge and who ever loses all of their reserves losses the battle. Don't think either wargame battle system really describes this system.
A lot of people never realized that Japanese gamers got into RPGs from the early computer RPGs like Ultima and Wizardry. Japan in fact still has a craving for the dungeon crawlers since any of the Wizardry games that came out after Wizardry 8 on the Pc over 20 years ago were all from Japan not the west. Dragon Quest definitely made the genre more friendly to the masses and was one of the major turning points in the popularity of the genre.
@Priest4hire And by dungeons as a mechanic, I'm talking about how very few "dungeons" in games are actually mazes. Most of them are just a map with enemies on it and the objective is to navigate through it for some reason.
It falls under the shooter game genre. Just because someone at Wikipedia decided to name their article "Shooter game" doesn't mean that is what everyone must call it. Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information.
loving this so far
In my opinion, JRPG isn't racist at all. Just like Western RPG isn't racist, and it helps me in finding specific types of games I would like to play. Seiken Densetsu 3 is a JRPG as much as Persona is a JRPG. But when it comes to terms like "light rpg" and "console rpg" -- which, let's be honest, no one uses -- it is WAY too broad a term. When I'm looking for games like SD3 I don't want to see games like Skyrim or Fallout. That is why subgenres exist, and just because you feel they aren't "authentic" enough or go "too deep" doesn't mean they aren't helpful to the rest of the world.
@lsdpot67 I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Phantasy Star came out in December 20th, 1987. DQ came out in May 27th, 1986. I think you are confused with the North American release dates for these games. These games originally came out in Japan.
I like that your elf is named Deedlit :)
Nice of you to notice lol
It may not make grammatical sense, but that's what happens with genre labels. RPG has become a label to describe a genre of games that descend from tabletop RPGs. This is not unusual with words. For example, "modern art" doesn't describe art right now but rather art created from the late 1880s to the 1970s. Art created right now is considered contemporary art.
@Priest4hire A dungeon is a game mechanic, not a specific location. In DQ you don't spend all your time in dungeons either.
Secondly, the ORIGINAL VERSIONS of several Ultima were shown in the video. Aside from having letters, the menus have nothing in common with DQ. DQ has more in common with The Black Onyx.
I feel like these videos were very "ahead of their time" and there wasn't a lot of understanding about the history and origins of Japanese RPGs when this was made. While the debate about whether or not JRPG is a valid genre name still goes on, it at least feels like people are a lot more informed on the subject these days. While I don't entirely agree with the tone here thanks for doing your part in getting information out there.
In Ultima you travel an overworld, visit towns, talk to NPCs, and search for the items and knowledge needed to defeat the grand foozle. Both start you off by a castle and town with a king that plays a central role. In Ultima IV (1985), the king sets up the journey you must undertake. It was Ultima that had signpost NPCs and different monsters hiding under bridges. From what I've played of it, [i]TBO[/i] has none of these. How many pre-DQ RPGs did? Or even used a repeating tile engine?
I don't give a rip about what we call any of these games, I just love RPG's and I like the show a lot. Thanks.
well done with these 2 videos.
@WesFX7 No. JRPG and WRPG were created by racist game reviewers a few years ago who have a bias toward BioWare computer rpgs. The term Console-style has existed since the 80's. If you spent any amount of time communicating with fellow gamers in the 90's, you'd have came across the term. It's still used on GameFAQs.
I feel compelled to add that although RPG originated as Role-Playing Game, it has changed to be a word of itself. It has changed and shifted... Often, RPG and Role-Playing Game are used in different contexts. For example, when I hear people talk about the latter, it's usually the like of D&D, or other tabletop games, where-as RPG is usually referring to Skyrim and its ilk. Not condoning the way it's used or anything... I still use it without the added game, but that's the reason why.
@runawaychild666 I'd like to one day write an encyclopedia that has articles on every notable / commercial computer rpg game ever made, but to do so I need to improve my Japanese a lot in order to fully research the topic.
@Priest4hire There are hidden items in DQ you're supposed to use the commands to find. Ultima did not have a command menu; you used a wide number of keyboard keys to do everything which are only listed in the instruction manual. BO at least showed what keys to press on the screen. Ultima having other similarities to DQ isn't something anyone refutes, as DQ is well known to be a refined version of earlier computer rpgs. Also, how many Nintendo games do you think had tile engines?
04:41
Cecil & Rosa: Final Fantasy 4
Deedlit: Record of Lodoss Wars
Cyan: Final Fantasy 6
Bilbo: oh, come on. :/
Musashi: Musashi Samurai Legend...?
Very informative I started my RPG playing in the 90s so I didn't have much experience with the older games like wizardry or the older ultima ganes just final fantasy and dragon quest I started with dragon quest 6.
I've played early Wizardry games, early Ultima games, and Dragon Quest. I remember thinking that Wizardry and Ultima were for adults, and Dragon Quest was for kids. Dragon Quest might be simpler, but it also requires less thought. Games that require less thought aren't necessarily "works of genius."
A “game with less thought” is a broad statement. DQ still requires understanding the game, the enemies, dungeons, where to go next, how to fight and counter enemies, etc.
Sure compared to some old games that were difficult, it is simpler, but only because it streamlined certain things and made things a bit more forgiving.
Just cause a game is simpler doesn’t mean it’s automatically meant for idiots or kids.
@Crust218 They are if the designs are more intuitive. Take for example Google or Facebook. Search engines and social networks were around long before those services but Facebook and Google made them more intuitive to use. That's the point I'm making with DQ compared to the older games.
@MrBacchus18 Yes, although much of this stuff has come about simply from being a gamer for years and spent time on the internet in the mid-90s. I've watched the abandoning of console-style for JRPG in the media and it ticks me off.
We were just discussing this on another channel the other day.. It seems as though the younger gen is literally obsessed with the term jrpg.. I suppose it started about 15 years ago or so or at least that’s what I noticed.. What I do find immensely inconsistent is the little cutesy Japanese platformers are not called JPF’s.. Japanese anime fighting games are not called JFighters.. Fire Emblem and XCom distinctly different region and style SRPGs yet still get lumped together..
So in essence it doesn’t make any kind of logical sense why there must absolutely be segregation in the RPG field..
If they really wanted to differentiate why not just go by Classical RPG or Modern RPG? Why does region so dearly matter only as far as RPGs??
@TheRpgFanatic I apologize for my inability to work the comments. Consider four of the menu commands in DQ: Talk, Take, Door and Stairs. All of them are clunky; especially 'Stairs'.. Why have a menu command for going up and down stairs instead of just walking over them? Ultima did it that way. In fact, there's a direct analog for all those commands in Ultima. Even standing on chests and using Take (Get in Ultima).
I remember Ultima, wish there was internet back then.😩
@piromaniac9999 I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Bu the DQ series has -always- been the Dragon Quest series. Enix just couldn't use the name in the US because there was a roleplaying game called DQ at the time. That's why they used Dragon Warrior for the US.
Interesting history lesson, looks like you did some research.
@Shyningfade This is a tamato vs tomatoe thing. The English language has many different dialects. I have a Pacific Northwest American dialect.
I didn't get my information from Wikipedia, I just observed that everything I browsed all genres didn't have "Game" attached to their category. RPG is the only category with 'Game' attached to it's name in the category. Seems kind of redundant seeing how we know we're playing a game.
I've heard people say "Skyrim is the best RPG GAME of all time." What they are really saying is "...Role-Playing Game game of all time."
Was not aware people used Wiki as a reliable source...
RPGs are D&D. Even games to this day, if it has RPG elements, then look out for the dwarves, elves, and hobbits, who are probably a fighting man, magic user and thief. What separates RPGs from JRPGs is the culture clash. Anime is just early Disney cartoons with those distinct Japanese eccentricities and mannerisms you see it all their stuff. Same way all old American monster movies are pretty much the same, while all old kaiju films are totally different, but all kaiju films are also pretty much the same.
@TheBandkanon Glad you noticed the references! Those footage is also from my Wizardry review.
I had Dragon Quest when I was 5 years old. Had no idea how to play it. Wow...I was wondering what game that was.
I just call them RPGs and its my favorite type of games but good video i learned a lot thanks
I have a video on my channel called "RPG Fanatic top funny moments" which lists all the games.
@putinblood Doesn't matter if it's a "slang term". The point is IT'S RACIST. The term was invented by Western game reviewers who HATE certain games like the Final Fantasy series. The term does not describe game mechanics, only superficial things like art style.
you should write a book including everything you know about rpgs and including your faves etc....be good to read
@osurpless You are probably thinking of Super Mario RPG.
Oh man I just watched another video like this one and he speaks of Wizardry and Ultima being responsible for Rpg games as we know them today so I Googled Wizardry to see if it was on console but nothing actually came up. So yeh I'm exited!!!! I even want to buy Ultima and Wizardry on NES just as collectors items or even PC copies would be better though I'm a console gamer at heart so I'll try find them. I want FF1 and DQ1 too.
Another note is the term RPG in itself. If you play Battlefield you would say I'm playing a shooting game but it falls under the Shooter genre and not the Shooter Game genre. So is Role-Playing GAME necessary? If anything it should stand for Role-Playing Grinding.
10 minute video of the most pedantic nature. Arguing an acronym.
Torneko Taloon got his own game!?
I wish you’d come back to making videos.
Thanks for the kind words and enjoying my channel. Sadly now that this channel is no longer in an MCN YT has demonetized most of my gaming videos, which is why I stopped focusing on this channel.
I'm enjoying your videos quite a bit, but your pronunciation is driving me nuts. Anime = ani-may, Onyx = On-icks, Melee = may lay, etc.
I appreciate your knowledge of the genre, but criticizing someone for their stance on titles/labels and whatnot seems rather unfair when you can't be bothered to say words (which are fairly common nowadays) correctly. Just some constructive criticism.
Otherwise, good job. I'm glad someone is focusing on RPGs, as it's a genre that demands educated critics.
hey whats the name of the game that appears just before dragon quest in your intro? and what console is it for?
i only have a few rpgs as i've not been into them that long but is the talking sword from atelier iris??
How the fuck is JRPG racist in ANY way
Maybe because what if Americans make a JRPG? Its kinda not fair because it'd be American Role Play Game or ARPG...Still not racist really? Lol I'm just tossing a dumb idea around, is that what he meant maybe? That classing the game style as JRPG is racist because the genre is broader than just one country. I dunno lol
how is this term "kind of a racist" ?Almost dropped the video.
@BroadwayRonMexico All of the Wizardry and many of Ultima games are turn based, menu combat. Same with others like Bard's Tale. And some of the licensed D&D games like Temple of Elemental Evil (2003). The LOTR PC game I reviewed. The Magic Candle I & II. And so on. Then look at "JRPGs" like the Mana series, or Star Ocean, or Tales of, and so on. Dragonslayer. The idea that JRPGs are mostly turn based and WRPGs are action based is just plain wrong.
I fully agree with what you're saying and your research is clearly well done and well cited but you gotta calm down dude JRPG is just a term used by people who don't know this or want to easily generalize light RPG's and games using the same style. I'd say half of the time it's used out of convience as opposed to ignorance. Aside from that I enjoyed the video's, great job on them.
Dragon Warrior is the american version of Dragon Quest.
@runawaychild666 It's a reference to a couple things. Azoth of Destiny is one of them; another is Zelda.
Racist? I think you don’t know what that word means.
Wait, wait... Wasn't that Dragon Warrior and not Dragon Quest?
@CysmaWinheim He's got several of them ^^ I'll be reviewing one of them soon.
Robotrek for the Super Nintendo.
@TheRpgFanatic Actually, now that I think about is my dialect is probably unique even for an Oregonian since I was primarily raised by my grandparents, who were 1st generation German-Americans that grew up in North Dakota.
I always HATED when Spells used random characters for spell names. Why couldn't a spell be called something simple like.... "FBALL" instead of "Zyrgurys"? Then having to remember these names associated with what they did? That was a turn off for me and I am a hardcore RPG'er myself.
What's the song in the beginning?
Good video!
Heated discussion. I agree with u on the racist aspect.
@TheRpgFanatic
Dragonquest=dragon warrior
Dragon warrior after dragon warrior 3 became dragon quest and it stayed that way.
And ultima is alot harder and how easy it is to die is insane.
Plus you need to remember where to get steal and how the menu system works you can die.
In ultima 3 exodus:I was going to ambrosia and got killed because i ran into a demon or something similar because of poison attack.
It is really annoying in ultima 3.
ultima 7 and ultima 8 are real time and different.
@TheRpgFanatic
Labeling by geographic region is racist?
@TheRpgFanatic Actually it does.
The biggest difference lies within the combat system in each. WRPGs are action-oriented with combat usually being rooted in hack-and-slash or shooter games, whereas JRPGs are turn-based, menu combat. Secondly, JRPGs follow a linear, distinct narrative, while WRPGs are usually more open-ended for exploration, etc.
There have been Japanese-produced games that are considered WRPGs (Demon's Soul comes to mind) and vice versa (Anacronox, Laxius)
Which games and stories influenced Dragon Quest?
Dragon Quest was Original on MSX before on NES/Famicom.
...
You are wrong.
Dragon Quest NES - May 1986 gamefaqs.gamespot.com/nes/563408-dragon-warrior/images
Dragon Quest MSX - Nov 1986 gamefaqs.gamespot.com/msx/918072-dragon-quest/images
@@KeyleeTamirian Aint nothing better than proving a years old necro'd comment wrong, is there?
Maybe if you're lucky you can dig up that 12 year old comment that a user wrongly stated that the US release of Super Mario Bros 2 was the official world wide sequel and that Doki Doki Panic is an urban legend.
Jayme Splendid
Its the best feeling in the world. Its like finding a time capsule of misinfo.
JRPG's are quite obviously a specific type of RPG's that come form Japan.
At this point I think the "Console-style RPG" folks have lost that battle, unfortunately. GameFAQs for example has long since changed those genre names to WRPG and JRPG.
I don't think it's necessarily racist to name a genre after its country of origin, though. Just so long as people DO understand that there are Western JRPGs and Eastern WRPGs.
@tehlastflax Tetsuya Nomura did a very angry rant about how much he hated the term at E3 2010 I believe. Barely anyone covered it, sadly. That's the state of game journalism right now unfortunately. But don't think for a second that Japanese like being called "Japanese", or want their games to be pigeonholed with such a label. They should be defined by mechanics not nation of origin.
JRPG as a term has been around since the late 80s and early 90s. Calm down dude it is a perfectly sound term and not in the slight bit rascist. American cars and french food are as rascist as japanese role playing games. Spoiled what was a good video in places. Try not to be so pendantic and angry.
Racist? I had no idea Japanese was a race. Everything lately is race, race, race.
who cares? go out, have a real life, i hope it will be:/.... good for you in the future
lmao this is sad