The Historical Jesus
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- What can we know about the historical Jesus of Nazareth? How and why does the life of the historic figure differ from competing (and contradictory) accounts in the New Testament? What can other sources tell us, including non-Christian accounts as well as gospels left out of the canon?
John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will outline an overview of what can and cannot be known about the historical Jesus and will talk about the difference between the portrait painted by academic history, the portraits painted by scripture, and the experience of the divine Christ as understood by Christians.
A Q&A and discussion will follow the presentation. Please send your questions on the live chat.
Lecture topics include:
Historical Jesus of Nazareth
Christ myth theory
Source criticism
Textual criticism
Biblical studies
Historicity of Jesus
Quest for the historical Jesus
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#lecture #cofchrist
I would buy any book this man wants to write. What a fascinating lecturer, every single time.
Yes hes amazing
What's his name?
I watch you fairly often, and often what you say is sensible, but I have to tell you it seems a huge rationalization. You want to believe in Christ and all that but you also want to be scientific, but all you end up doing is lying to yourself, probably to protect the indoctrination you got as a child.
He's not as qualified on Buddhist historicity though. There's quite a few errors in the amount of sources which do detail Strong evidence of the Early Gotamas life. Other than that yes excellent!
Lol😂
Im extremely impressed by how you, a follower of the philosophies of Jesus of Nazareth, take a very nuanced apporach to the history of the movement. As an exchristian I must say, I consider these lectures most valuable and I learn so much. Thank you.
Ex Christian is an odd term to use. I don't think you leave Him once he truly reveals himself to you. It's like a marriage or an education, where you choose to be there. No divorce or dropping out will happen, because it's not a normal earthly union. This is, what Christ claims, the beginning of the truth of God. . It happens, we're all self involved. So don't take it too personal
@@commonclayofthenewwest6045 Okay, bud. Glad you know me better than I do according to a series of gospels that have littpe historical accuracy.
@@saintbrush4398 they have vast and compelling historical accuracy.
@@commonclayofthenewwest6045 another former catholic here! There's a legion of us.
@@commonclayofthenewwest6045
Brainwashed and dangerous.....thanks a lot, Trumper.
Lectures do not come better than this.
Thank you John, I absolutely love your lectures and listen to them over and over always looking forward to the next 🙏
Thank you very much for this informative and very interesting lecture, I agreed with you on nearly all the points you made.
Just one small correction from me as a Historian specializing in Roman history: Constantine did not make Christianity the sole official state religion, this would only be done decades later. He merely supported the Christians, ordered to cease their persecution, granted them privileges and incorporated certain Christian elements into his reign. But Christianity can not be called a real 'state religion' of the empire until the reign of Theodosius I.
Jesus has been proven a complete fiction by Atwell. Atwell explains everything the which was a mystery to others.
You have better read his book before making comment like in this video.
Gunnar Heinsohn has a few things to tell you about the first 1000 years, too.
@@Stupidityindex proven by Atwell huh ? LOL
@@Stupidityindex is it atwell or atwill (Joseph)?
@@Stupidityindex I wouldn't say Atwell "proved a fiction". Which is really really difficult. But he did provide a good argument against the likelihood of a historical Jesus.
All though I don't doubt there could have been a "Yeshua" pushing Hebrew mysticism in the 1st century or even being a false messiah. There were enough false messiahs in that period where it's not out of the question. But there is no proof of it either.
It would have been easy enough to just take the name of a false messiah and apply it to a set of Jewish beliefs, fables and mysticism, which is obviously what it would have been. And it also would have been quite different than what became Saul and Constantine's version of Christianity.
Seems like splitting hairs. Certainly it was the start of institutionalizing Christ-ism.
I tried to write some elaborate comment, buy to put it simply: I really enjoy your lectures:) Thank you!
Excellent!!!❤
superb lecture. Big thank-you sir.
Yet another fascinating lecture from Center Place
Too bad the guy doing the lectures is a Moron..sorry, I meant Mormon.
@@mugikuyu9403 boo on thee
@@nosuchthing8 Boo on me? How dare ye.
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wow john, you give an exclamation point! to your name along with a long line of “johns”. your synthesis of religious thoughts is fresh and “enlightened”. i’m not a believer but you give me hope for the future of mankind.
Having grown up in the Utah-based LDS Church, where the view of Christian history was presented solely as Jesus died -> the Church immediately apostasized -> Joseph Smith fixed everything, I find it refreshing and amazing that such an informative view of the historical background of everything is being presented and/or hosted by a Mormon offshoot group
The “ historical” in “ historical jesus” adds what?-As far as you can discen it if you can
Ihave *no_idea* what the " historical" is supposed to add , have you?
John hamer is a former latter-day saint lol
Would be really interesting to see a civil discussion (not debate) with Carrier and Hamer.
it would be like a fight between tyson fury and a sweet old lady
As always, I thoroughly enjoyed your lecture. And I'm loving this format where questions are handled at the end without all the interruptions. Thank you! I'll continue donating because you are consistent in giving balanced presentations.
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There's so little known about who Jesus was that everyone really sees what they want to see.
Not knowing everything about Jesus, but being inspired by the details we know from the Gospels, proves the power of the mystery of the faith. It is why we go to church, ask ministers to explain Christian theology, and read the Bible ourselves to learn more and yet never learn everything. That is the power of religion as we all try to learn and change our lives to live like him.
I can't wait for this one! Love all your work!
Thank you John 😊 Blessings to all.
True expert on this subject
Thank you for a fairly level-headed assessment of the situation. I am a mythicist so I came to your talk rather skeptical. I was glad to see you making a very clear distinction between an historical Jesus and a Jesus of the Faith. That said, I felt that there was an important mythicist point that I think you (and most people) forget about (though I might have missed it) and that is what I refer to as the Patchwork Jesus approach.
There are contradictions in the Gospels and Acts . There are gospel tales that are almost certainly reworks of OT passages. There are the features common with other pre-Jesus savior figures that are either true for those other saviors or false for Jesus. Start paring away the less-than-certain information about Jesus (even the name Jesus / Joshua might be a title (the secular messiah modeled after Joshua) rather than a personal name) and you are, pretty much, left with, "there was a man involved in a religious movement in the first half of the 1st Century which merged with other movements and heavily modified by Paul to become the Christianities that we know today". The rest is all a patchwork construction based on a few core facts that even the best biblical scholars can rarely agree on. Even if there is an historical figure, any factual features of that figure are lost in myth and all that remains is patchwork mythical figure.
And that doesn't even begin to cover the conflation of any Earthly Jesus and a Celestial Christ.
Again, thanks for the talk.
The contradictions between Gospels are mostly between Matthew and Luke, which were authored about the same time and independently.
There aren’t really any contradictions between the Pauline epistles when you remove the pseudo parts.
@@annascott3542 The OP mentioned Paul.
_"Which leads to the conclusion that whatever is in the gospels that’s not in Paul is fluff."_
No it doesn't. It is entirely possible that there's content in the Gospels that are based on real events that aren't mentioned in the epistles.
@@danieleyre8913Possible means you havent won the lottery. Why do you feel the necessity that fan fiction filled with mythology is anything but that?
@@TorianTammas Okay you’re obviously not very smart.
As anyone with an IQ over 85 should not need explaining: I’m using the word “it is possible” in this context as a more more polite way of saying “does not necessarily mean”, not as any basis.
Perhaps I should have not been so polite. The idea that something in the gospels has to have also been in the epistles to be valid is moronic. The epistles are letters between Paul and early Christians where he defends his position and gives instructions. The gospels are mythologisings of Jesus to shoehorn him into being the Jewish messiah.
Incredible lectures! Thank you
You are welcome 🙏🏼
@@TheologyAcademy_AR You?
Another excellent presentation from John Hamer. Thank you
Excellent Presentation and breaking the stories up into segments make it easy to follow
As always very well done. Very well researched. Thank you.
Ho do you know it is(whatever you mean by but have no idea) " well researched"?
What do you suppose the " hyarorical" adds to " historical jesus"?
Mr Hamer gives a quick run down of four authors that examine the historical Jesus but what I would really like to see, is his own book one day.
"Historical Jesus" is meaningless. We can assume all sorts of miracle workers were about, as they are today, and no doubt some of them were named Jesus. Since you admit the Gospels are basically fiction, and since we really have no honest contemporary, or even near-contemporary, historical confirmation outside Christian circles, the assertion that He existed is kinda worthless.
I am more Ehrman than Carrier, so unlikely to agree. Have a nice day.
@@FrankMertonYou cannot hand wave away “Christian sources”. First, the Bible text writers were Jewish. Second, they are still sources.
@@thechatteringmagpieFantasy fan fiction stories in koine greek about a dead aramaic speaking preacher are full of mistakes in geography, culture and religion that they can only be produced by foreigners who had only interest in there fan fiction
@@Chomper750Fan fiction in greek about a dead aramaic speaking guy remains fan fiction.
I love all the context. It's what brings life to our bible stories. We never read the bible much in our church and from that lack I developed an undying curiosity about everything biblical. And a certain amount of scholarly objectivity and depth is just what John has presented. Thank you!
Church is not a building
too busy asking you for money?
@@chriscullen6949 THE Devil Has Already started to take the CATHOLIC church
@@chriscullen6949 My church (religion for the overly picky) created so much new scripture and instruction since 1830, the reading and study is overwhelming for everyone. The money thing didn't take much time at all. How long does it take to say: Pay Up? 🙂
Which John? "In the beginning was the word," John? Oh, John the lecturer is cool. I don't understand why they never taught us this stuff in school. They were teaching atheism through their abuse any way. Maybe Satan can help the priests and nuns solve their sexual problems together rather than take it out on children.@@t.g.9782
I’m no mythicist but I think Dr Carrier deserves more credit than that. If I’m not mistaken he leans closer to a 33% chance of a historical Jesus and it doesn’t necessary rely on probability, I mean he has several well thought out books that go into great lengths covering everyone from Josephus to Tacitus, to the Talmud point by point. I don’t necessarily agree with his conclusion, but it did get me thinking. I recommend everyone at least check out his online lectures or debates. The man’s a force to be reckoned with.
I am a mythicist and I agree heartily. Going against "the consensus" now and then is how we make progress.
@@robinbeers6689i think in 20 years, the scholarly consensus of the Historicity of Jesus will change. Carrier will be the next Dr. Tim Thompson of the 1970s who speculated Moses was not historical.
So sad to miss the live but thankful I can still view the recorded lecture. I look forward to having incorporated Centre Place's schedule into mine. Still working on that sync.
Great questions guys. I especially liked the Paul letters question
Así es , ami también me Fasinan las Cartas de SAN PABLO , grazie pur le Aporte .
enjoyed watching
Good lecture, keep them coming and one day you shall top over 100,000 views when posting. Don't get why you don't have that many now. When I seen title of "the historical Jesus" I almost didn't want to watch it bc I've been watching a lot of "historical" videos on it as of late. Yours at least included the Bible with all its pros and cons. Lots of good videos on this site with lots of subject matter dealing with history etc
This is a great relaxation video. I'm agnostic but I've been going to sleep with Jesus for the last week. Thank you and thanks the Lord almighty for this sound sleep 🙏
I can not find words to express my gratitude for these lectures. There are objective, equidistant, modern and very informative. Thank you CentrePlace and John Hamer.
Equidistant?
@@dannymunro7454 Yes, equal distance from the main Christian denominations.
Sargon of Akkad's reign was from 2334 BCE to 2279 BCE and the Assyrian texts that detail his birth and childhood are from the 7th century BCE. They state, "My mother was a high priestess, my father I knew not. The brothers of my father loved the hills. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates. My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me. Akki, the drawer of water, appointed me as his gardener. While I was a gardener, Ishtar granted me her love, and for four and ... years I exercised kingship."
who told you that"Sargon of Akkad's reign was from 2334 BCE to 2279 BCE," and why do you believe them?
Love your work. Thank you. On R. Carrier, I read his book on the Bayes theorem approach, and it was a mistake trying to wedge historical/lit analysis into a mathematical formula. But it is a useful model for thinking about historical knowledge, which is uncertain. It's about what's probable given all this other stuff we accept as fairly certain. For me, Jesus need not have walked on Earth to explain all that was written about him. Whether he walked or didn't, he's been lied about a lot by powerful people, so much so that who the man actually was doesn't seem to matter. I'm for certain values he is said to have promoted, and I take them quite seriously, whether he lived or not.
I am Assyrian and we speak modern day Aramaic.
Cephas is actually pronounced
“Kee-pa” and Kee-pa means rock in Assyrian. .
It is like Peter in Greek or Samad in the Arabic language.
Peter in modern Greek is Petros
I know to be Butros in Arabic.
This was excellent, the best lecture I have heard on this topic.
Kudos also to the participants for their questions and responses.
Jesus teaches by being the cHANGe JESUS [on his own bROCKen cro$$] wants to be and why only 1 in 3 CHRISTians on the cross are IN NO CENT CHILDren as only children are the innocent lambs of sacrifice by the RAM$ until HE comes back as a L-ion.. L = 12 and 50 in roMAN #$'s so 50% of the 12 `1 + 2 and where 2 are walKING, 1 is taKEN and the other is LEFT beHIND ~ situated at the back; posterior.
"he snagged a calf by the hind leg" .. a calf and a lamb is a CHILD!!!
There seems to be only two possibilities: Either the faithful created an earthly Jesus to represent the creed, or they created a legendary Jesus that completely erased the earthly Jesus from history. Either way, the actual Jesus is long forgotten (and very well dead).
What do you suppose" history" to be*othter_than* a set of vague beliefs about the pre-now?
Not only is there *Absolutey_No* way of experiencing the past because it cannot be experienced thus there is no mechanism for discovering whether or nota chap called jesus(or anything for that matter)ever existed, it is utterly irrelevant to the signal if it ever had a source. Whether or not there ever was a chap called jesus(are anything-at-all)about the past is not something that can be*Known*which I define as directly imediately personally experienced(as directly immediately personally as pain)
If you do, why do you give a sh1t whether or not there ever was a chap called jesus when it is some thing that simply *C-a-n-n-o-t* be known one way or the other..
*N-o-t-h-i-n-g* can be*known*(as defined) about the past.
May there once was a chap called jesus, may be not; what does it matter if there was or not? It is utterly irrelevant to that form of dreaming and stupefaction called *belief* whether not it has a matching or corresponding counterpart in what-is-and-cannot-be-different. What does it matter if what is believed is not true or has mo matching or corresponding counterpart in what-is-and-cannot-be-different?
Granted that that form of dreaming and stupefaction called *belief* is the *exact_oposite* of knowledge(direct immediate personal experience(as direct immediate and personal as pain), but what does that matter or signify?If dreams scratch the itch, go with the dreams; why not?
I think you are attaching to the word history or historical a significance that it simply *will_ not* bear -IT -*-does_not-*- mean has a matching or corresponding counter part in what -is-and-cannot-be- different
@@vhawk1951kl History isn't about vague beliefs of the past. It isn't even about what happened in the past. It's about what we can _claim and show_ to have happened based on evidence. You are mixing history with philosophy.
As to the existence of any particular person, it matters as a _historical_ question. It matters whether Julius Caesar existed. Or Adolf Hitler. If you're talking about existing as in personal experiences, then might as well say that all gods ever conceived existed, including the other mystery cult deities (Dionysus, Osiris, Zalmoxis, etc.). Or didn't, based on other personal experiences. But that's not a question of history. Nor are single personal experiences necessarily evidence of the commonly agreed reality. Plenty of people experience all kinds of whacky stuff right now. Just because you feel like a bullet won't kill you, doesn't make it true.
@@Bluesruse *You_say*: "History isn't about vague beliefs of the past. It isn't even about what happened in the past. It's about what we can claim and show to have happened based on evidence."
That is what you(rather incoherently) *Say*
Are you saying that you*Don't* have any beliefs about the past?
It is Axiomatic that you cannot directly immediately personally experience(as directly immediately and personally as pain)*Anything_Whatsoever* of the past(which no more exists that that dream the future exists)
Do the logic:*If(which is axiomatic) *Nothing* can be known-defined as directly immediately personal experienced(as directly immediately and personally as pain)
then for you or anyone to have*Any* idea of the past , it *Can_Only*be something *shortof or less than knowledge and that*Can_Only* be belief- *What_else* is there?
You say what history*Is_Not*, but do not set out whatever-you-mean-by-but-have-not-the faintest-idea"History *Is* *Be*_cause* you have not the faintest idea because it has never crosed your mind to question what history (or anything very much) *Is*
You appear to be an Elsie kinderlander and thus for you-or you suppose, words and language to be magic or reserved to those you suppose to be in authority(and you are no authority on anything are you Elsie?)
*I* say otherwise and*Specifically* that it (history) is*Self_evidently* no more that a set of vague beliefs about the past- which.... it..... ... clearly.. *Is* because it *Can_Only* be something short of knowledge(which I define as direct immediate personal experience(as direct immediate and personal as pain)-which you cannot better.
*T-h-e-r-e-f-o-r-e* (what-you-call)history *Can_Only* be something *short* of that(knowledge-as defined) for which the*Only* word is Belief.
You_say* - and I quote:*"we"* can claim and show to have happened based on evidence."-*Huge_mistake*.
" We" being *you*and which specific identifiable interlocutor?- but no matter (you*-yes *You*Elsie can" show" something based on what specific evidence(which word you define how?)?
You are clearly no kind of lawyer or any kind of graduate an clearly out of your depth when it comes to matters which requite both-but again no matter, but it goes deeper(and you drown)
"*Evidence*" to *" show"*what, to what end or purpose? - to induce *what*? Belief?- what *else* is there*?For what*Else* would you"show evidemce....., to achieve*what*?
You are about to demonstrate that you have absolutely_no* idea to what end or for what purpose you would" show evidence" "which means what and what specific whatever-you-mean-by-but-have-not-the faintest-idea"evidence?
Is the past evidence or evidence the past?
You*wil* demonstrate that you have no idea.
Take my advice don't do or try to learn law; you simply do not have the wits; you do not know what you mean by evidence and have *no_idea* who "*we*" is, and *even_less* of an idea of show to what end(or achieve what?
It was fortunate that you did not use the words"*prove or proof* because you have *Abolutely_No* idea what that either of them mean either.
You also clearly have neither any idea of the difference between knowledge and information, and less of an idea that there is any difference between the two.
It is *Axiomatic* that nothing can be *known*(as defined) of the past or *anything* that no longer exists, and thus, if you are to have *Any* idea whatsoever of what cannot be known(as defined) it *Can_*Only* belief Res ipsa loquitur,*and* Quidd est demonstrandum so that is check mate.
You are a kinderlander -American are you not, and you *don't* have any higher learning or a degree, do you?
In sum:History is and *can_be*no more than a set of beliefs(and what belief is*Not* vague? about what cannot be experienced(because it no longer exists in the realm of what can be directly immediately personally experienced)- namely what-is-called- the past
Excellent presentations, thank you for all your hard work, very much appreciated.
Scholars$ alWAYs$ disagree as SCRIPTureS is a sumMARY of HIStory and to FIGure out who is who you need to know their #'s is their names ... to match HIStory w/SCRIPTureS that alWAYS$. repEATS$ as they are MANmade 'records' by GREEdy white meN of the BAR CLUB of scounDRels$ on the hILLs$ of jeRIChO is yer lawYER poliTICianS$
This made me wonder even more that why Israel Finkelstein still holds on to his possible "Moses like figure" even though we know better today that real historical events don't create myths, legends, fictions and other untrue stories. On the contrary, the writing and study of history rejects and overturn them completely. And he also insists that there has been some kind of small movement of the people that, according to Finkelstein, has served as a source of inspiration and is reflected in the core of the Exodus narrative. But it is more likely that there has never been any of Exodus, Moses, Joshua, Shaul, David, or Solomon. Just like most scholars have accepted. And the 20,000 to 140,000 imagined wandering Israelites on the desert aren't "small movement of the people." There should be many visible and permanent traces of such a great desert march if it were true. But actually there are none.
But thanks for your video and good presentation.
I've heard that some scholars hold that there may had been a Moses like figure that inspired the story of the exodus because Moses isn't a hebraic name but an Egyptian one, along with this the tribe of levi seems to have alot of Egyptian characteristics within it than any other tribe of isreal.
Are you saying Moses, David, Solomon, didn't exist at all? There's plenty of evidence outside the Bible that they did. Diodorus siculus wrote about Moses. The merneptah stele speaks of David.
@@whiteypanda6144 Moses probably didn't exist, David and Solomon probably did exist but even that is still somewhat shaky.
@@wannabe_scholar82 supposedly around the time of Jesus, the priesthood could still trace their lineage back to Aaron. That would suggest Moses was real. Who knows
@@wannabe_scholar82So Spidermqn is real as Peter Parker's name is so special tbat it can't be made up. Same for Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and the jnvisible pink unicorn.
This is an amazing and top (academic) quality video lecture and Q&A. I say this as a social scientist who has also studied ancient Middle East history and interfaith dialogue
I find it without merit; by saying that the "Roman Empire" tried to "control Judaism" after the destruction of the Temple. The Caesars, Pharaohs, and Emperors knew that once a Religion was adopted as "the Law of the State"...then it would only take one generation of massacres of other religions...to ensure the conversion of the Society.
Bucking "the Religion/Law of the State" during the Era; was a death sentence. This is evident in the letters of Pliny, the Younger.
I listened to this over several days...mainly because he is so boring. However, at around the 45:00 minute to 55:00 minute of this video...he thoroughly covers "baptism" as it is found "in the BY BA'AL".
No Jew under the Tanak....would ever "go to a river to get dunked for the FORGIVENESS OF SIN". The TANAK had only one remedy..."give you Sin Offering to the High Priest....AT THE TEMPLE". This was not some "water ritual".
In fact...it was not a "ritual among the Greeks", either. The word: "baptizo" comes from "bapto" and among the Greeks of that Era ... the classical Greek usage of the word "bapto" related to the "sinking of a ship, or drowning". This word had zero significance to either Jew or Greek.
The word is an entirely made up "tradition" due to Mithraism and its adoption into Christianity after the time of FLAVIUS CONSTANTINE...of the "continuing" Flavian "Pontifex Maximus" Dynasty.
I suggest that this gentleman presents "zero evidence" that Jesus actually existed. In fact, in the Original "Apology" for dumping Christos-ianity onto this Planet by the "Dynasties"... Justin Martyr in his FIRST APOLOGY, Section 21; states that "Jupiter created everything, including JeZeus".....aka Jew Zeus....aka I.E. Zeus.
It's really not as complicated as this man portends. Just keeping accepting "Scholarship"....from these men with "some degree" from the Universitas. It is interesting that the word: degree comes from the Latin: degradus.
so...all the "schoolers/scholars" were "programmed" and then given a "degree" after being "degraded". duh
Carrier and Lataster have raised some good points regarding a lot of this information.
I think a big part of christianity’s success is how quickly content was written about Jesus compared to other religion’s founders. Jesus being said to walk on water being written closer to his death than Sidartha being said to have levitated doesn’t make it more likely but it “feels” like it does to us.
This was very good. Thank you!
1:51:23
The apologist Frank Turek often asks atheists "if Christianity were true would you become a Christian?"
Well my question is, if what about Christianity were true?
Your answer explains why that question is weird to me. So thank you.
For what its worth, Carrier gives a one out of three chance of Jesus being historical. So he's not a total denier.
Richard Carrier does NOT think the probability of Jesus' existence is one in three. He thinks it's 1 in 12,500 or 0.008%. In the book, he gives two probability estimates - an estimate based on his best probability assessment (0.008%) and then an "a fortiori" estimate based on him being maximally charritable to historicity (32%). It's important to emphesize that in the book, he repeats over and over how the "a fortiori" estimate is not reasonable at all and how he must completely bend over backwards to get historicity to at least that probability. We can even quantify how much less reasonable he thinks the "a fortiori" estimate is compared to his best estimated - about 4,000 times less reasonable!
Let's reflect on this - Richard Carrier says that the evidence is not strong either way, but he still ends up being more confident that a guy didn't exist 2,000 years ago than he is about a coin flip landing heads THIRTEEN TIMES IN A ROW! This is completely ridiculous and should have been a massive red flag for him that there's something wrong with his numbers. They actually approach confidence levels in natural sciences - for example, my unborn child had 1 in 9,000 odds of having Down Syndrome based on a first trimester pre-natal screening. Richard Carrier is more confident about Jesus not existing based on what he thinks is weak evidence than he is about a chiild having Down Syndrome based on DNA testing! What does he think the probabilities are for ancient events with great evidence? Higher than for experimental results in particle physics?!
So why does everyone think that Carrier puts the probability at 30% Well, because that's the number he has been giving outside the book in the last couple of years. If I was a complete asshole (and I am), I would say he has realized how nuts his best estimate actually is and how saying he's 99.992% confident a guy didn't exist 2,000 years ago makes him look bad. It's amazing how many people all falling for this.
@@kamilgregor People can evolve and change their mind. Carrier's book On the Historicity of Jesus was published almost 8 yrs ago. In his most recent discussions he does give the 1 in 3 probability.
Doesn't change the fact that Carrier believes that the man known as Jesus, in all likelihood, probably did not exist.
@@brianhall7953 Wait, do you seriously suggest that over the last 8 years, he became FOUR THOUSAND times more confident that Jesus existed?! What amazing evidence for Jesus' historicity has he discovered that he didn't know when he was writing the book?
The arguments Carrier puts forth are the important part of his work. The speaker only harrumphs the use of Bayes theorem. Little wonder, as the evidence he outlines for the historicity of Jesus suffers badly when exposed to those arguments.
@@kamilgregor Obviously both you and John Hamer like lying and chasing after straw men. Also obviously, neither of you have read Carrier's work (let alone understood it) or listened to Carrier's presentations. Because you aren't representing Carrier's actual main arguments against the historicity of Jesus. Plowing down a straw man answers nothing.
Oh, and just listened to a fairly thorough presentation by Carrier after watching this. Carrier does give about a 1 in 3 chance for their being a historical guy at the root of the Jesus story. I'm inclined to believe Carrier when he speaks for himself over liars who misrepresent others' positions.
To be famous, deny the famous.
Like usual, you deliver a delightful historical account of what we have in the gospels.
What an incredible lecturer.
Realy, what do you suppose the " historical" adds to " hysorical jesus? Is perhaps just another example of how the kninderlander suppose words to be magic?
Excellent
Thanks! Super great lecture as always!
Why aren’t any of you pointing out buddah was a scythian not Indian? Scythians were aryan tribes .
Much wisdom is gained here.
Thanks for another great lecture
Superb lecture !!!
Excellently Done!
Something that's always bothered me as a practicing progressive Christian - if there was a historical Jesus who was a human being, is it disrespectful to him for us to subvert his human teaching and belief system and make him into something he never claimed to be? By saying we follow the Jesus of scripture not history, are we saying the Jesus of history did not matter? Like, if I found out that in the distant future I'm worshiped as God, I'd be pretty upset.
The history of Jesus is that of Scripture. They are inseparable.
@@SspaceBFan fiction accounts by unnaned greek authors
During the q&a the question of was Jesus married.. some people say he must have been but the same people freely accept that John the Baptist wasn't
Only the Mormons, a looney cult, say Jesus was married.
I love your videos. I am an atheist now, but suppose now I put my faith in really smart people, and you seem to be one. The subject is fascinating and you are amazing for covering it. Thank you!
if you are putting your faith in people , you are putting your faith in a limited amount of knowledge and will never find truth, Truth is way beyond the mere mind of the naked ape called man. God is way beyond our wildest imagination as is Jesus. I know this because it did not come from a book or man's lips. There is much more to what we can't see than what we do see with our human eyes.
@@marymorningstar4508 any human who thinks a sky daddy created everything including trillions of galaxies with billions of stars , and at the same time cares who you have have sex with is delusional. You're apparently one of them.
Thanks
Again, excellent
well done;
thank you
This man is a genius.
Excellent content, thanks for these!
Wonder why George Bernard Shaw said "bible is the most dangerous book on earth. Don't allow your children to have access to it. Keep it under lock and key".
Also would like to know your views on the"true doctrine " by Celcus a Greek philosopher that lived in the second century who also mentioned that Jesus father was a Roman soldier named Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera.
Bernard Shaw ever was a tendentious old fart
thank you much~
Thank U, Infinite Intelligence 🙏
Happy new year John
There is another historical Jesus. Jesus the Magician as advocated by Morton Smith. Very interesting book.
The Gospel of Mark didn't originally identify Jesus as "from Nazareth" but as a "Nazorian". There's really no good reason to believe that Jesus was from there.
I think being identified as a Nazorian is a pretty good reason to believe someone was from Nazareth
Where does Paul talk about Apostles and their wives going two by two? That sounds awesome.
This was great!
I wish I lived in Toronto
Great lecture!
Well done.
Please, please, please do a full debunking of Caesar's Messiah!
Thanks!
Plus Rabbi only means "teacher", and the many different sects weren't necessarily official. Even if there was a temple rule to be an official rabbi with a post and influence, a teacher out in the boonies wouldn't have been restricted by such code either way. His students saw him as a Rabbi so he was a Rabbi. A scholar and teacher, normally one who studies Jewish law.
best analysis of jesus
Christians confuse the historical Jesus with the mythical one that's in the Bible. The one that's in the Bible definitely didn't exist
A miraculous incident, and it is my obligation to say it and others have the right to know,I am from Qatar, and I saw the image of the Jesus Christ on the ceiling of my room, where He manifested April 2016 His face is a little long, white and beautiful, light beard, head hair lies on top shoulders. The eyes are sharp, and beautiful features resemble the people of the Middle East, The picture was very super clear, which astonished and surprised me. At first I was asleep and suddenly woke up to bear witness to the situation,I thought there is some likeness in the very slight of my friend , but a quick inspiration came to me. He is Jesus , all of this took a few seconds was enough, I don't know how the disappearance happened after the vision it happened once. Translate Arabic to English using Google,
Grasias me gusta la lectura grasias bendisiones
GREAT JOB JOHN. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MY FAITH GREW AS I WATCHED. AMEN
Your faith should have died
I’ve read a lot about Jesus being a Buddhist & for the years nothing was written about him he was travelling in the orient,
None of it is true however
He did travel but he wasn't a Buddhist
Brilliant!
jesus was a charismatic guy with a wonderful look on life, or an enthralling creation of a fantastic fictional writer ... maybe. either way his story can be an inspiring example to get through life in a good way.
So can Superman or Spiderman.
This world is mysterious and all you have to do is to look at it with clear eyes and you can see that. Jesus is more real than you or I and I know this not by faith or reading books or listening to lectures of men who think they know. You are living in a big mystery and most people miss the true meaning of life because they are blinded by their own human ego and desires of the flesh. Your own mind is one of the biggest liars there are and it constantly fools you. God is not something made up by man. God is the only reality there really is. You are living in the world of the father of lies and it is full of deceit . Deceit would not be called deceit if it were so easy to detect. It is very easy to fool people because just living in this body limits our mind. Reality is far too vast for the tiny mind of man to comprehend.
1:01:10 “The existence of a historical Jesus doesn’t mean the gospels are history texts.” Again, John delivers aha moments again and again for me. What he says seems so logical that I say to myself, why didn’t I think of this before?” 😅
HIStory is the D-evil in the deTAIL$ of SCRIPTureS that is a sumMARY of cases that SET precedence aka CASE LAW for other similarly situated cases in future and why SCRIPTureS and HIStory alWAYS. repEATs IT$elf as NO ONE IS ABOVE the LAW not even the KING of KING$
I will be there in 5 mins to take a look.
As for Jesus I think what is important is that people tend to believe in narrative that is more appealling or for some reason more utilitarian. Everything that exists from definition exists because there was a force or condition usually both that allowed this, or conidition allows, force enforces (in other words will ) and aim is the immediate goal of achieving that .. Jesus apart from being a historical figure is the idea of human who can overcome or rise above human current condition and elevate it higher despite impossible odds. The reason he had to be poor and with no political influence is that people of power already have it and may not feeel the need as much to solve their problems so much as people who are inferior in mind and body and stature. Those people need to believe that they can rise above this and become Christs, can redeem themselves. JUst because it is hard to do it oneself so there is this Jesus who can do this for us .In fact, because we need to believe in him , we effectively do it ourselves but because of him we can believe because so far we did not have strength to do it. Now when someone who is not God but who has God's attributes can help us so we become like God in our own concrete circumstances. Because we are tiny Gods we are deemed to be children of God. God uses will and imagination to make things happen. So do we. Yet we wander inthe dark because we do not know what effectively is good .Good things can lead to bad things and vice versa. But not always. Like eating sweets is good because may be nice , the same as drinking alcohol but generally it is not good idea. Fasting is bad but can help a lot. On the other hand too much fasting may be bad too. Same goes for setting up a family. It is good but then more responsibility that means you become bound to some sort of contract. If you break it there are some consequences. If you do not set up a family you sort of effectively deprive yourself of good things family brings but if everyone went that route the human race would stop to exist on Earth. (Highly technical analysis, reality is usually not what we think, that is why Jesus is so mysterious).
Carriers' calculation is maybe wrong but to trust the Gospels which have copied from each other and their authors clearly invented stories which was the zeitgeist of this area. People at the time weren't concerned about details but more about putting a good story out. Josephus's text seems to me that Christians added it later into it. Why has Filo not mentioned Christ? And Paul met Jesus on the way to Damascus after his death, seems wrong too
Why is there a difference between the Synoptic Jesus and the Johannine Jesus?
If only Christians would watch your videos. You helped me learn about the actual history of the bible, it's origins & how it ll developed into the doctrine of the church today. Let's just say this, I'm no longer a Christian due to your videos & I'm looking into other spiritual paths. Namely psilocybin mushrooms. You should consider writing a book. I'd buy it.
That's why God sent us a prophet to demonstrate that Jesus is Alive forevermore and that's He is the same yesterday today and forever and to show these guys are deceived and way of the beaten path!
@@eagleeyes6642 bro Jesus died 2,000 years ago. He's dead. He's not coming back. Sorry.
@@tarmonkey666 Only time will tell and I hope that the Lord Jesus open your eyes of understanding from the one that blinded you.
Amen! Prince of Peace❤
Those who oppose Jesus Christ! Belong with Baal or the new found Buddah ! Please hurry with those spaceships! Atlantis Awaits!
@@tarmonkey666
666..
In greek
600 ..Xi
60 ...Xu.
6 ....S
666 ...is Xi Xu.S..JeSu.S
The materilised form of the christ consciousness..
Jesus christ still lives on earth ..and u are part of it ..imparting to it ...and feeding off of it every single day...
Its a double entry system that accounts for the labour u owe ur mother for her labour...ie the original sin ..is accounted for by the savings account in Christ ..the doubel book entry system..bearing the birden of the debt u owe ur mother..
U r runnig it in reverse ie the anto christ ...
When u settle the debt u owe ur mother for her labour .mher accoutnant being the Crown..Christ re.Turns ..
U will be Crowned..when u own the CRND at the HM treasury that holds the Crown title ..
I offered my labour to the CRND and they have given me thir account number to reduce the debt of the Crown..ie u surrender ur labour claim to settle ur mother claim over ur labour..
U becime one with Christ..consciousness..
Christ .re.Turns ..and u align with ur soul realising u dont own anything on this earrth ..as u cannot cliam even ur body vessel since it has a lien over it since ur mother has a claim over its labour as she laboured over it to create it..the bookkeeper of this claim is the Crown ..and its franchises are the nations nrunning the debt adminsitration as we increase debt to the nation ie crown franchise by loaning the labour credits to run it .ie the papal war game of piracy ..accounting for the piracy adminstered by us pirating our mothers labour claim to fund and run the war game .instead of reducingnand settling the debts we owe our mother at the Crown
As far as we know, the first author outside the church to mention Jesus is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism around AD93. He has two references to Jesus. One of these is controversial because it is thought to be corrupted by Christian scribes (probably turning Josephus’s negative account into a more positive one), but the other is not suspicious - a reference to James, the brother of “Jesus, the so-called Christ”.
At 1:13:55 you say that in the Gospel of John we can see that Jesus second coming had already occured. Which passage are you referring to? As a preterist this sounds incredibly interesting.
Well I think he means in Luke. In Luke jesus says the kingdom has already come and is inside you
*Prophets
Discussion of Jesus begins at 18:00.
I found Jesus, and I won't let go. Thank you Father in Heaven for loving me 🙏🏻
Friend, if I may offer you a suggestion: Treat God as the paramount Father, who's job and delight it is to hold your hand and teach you your first steps, with the ultimate goal of making you an adult who walks on his own feet and charts his own course in life. That is THE essence of what it means to be a Father: He holds your hand and then lets go.
This Life is not our training playpen for the Hereafter. We won't have temptations or tears there. We need to be adults regarding temptations and suffering HERE. Our Father has given us a will and passion and wisdom in THIS life. EVERY true father hopes to see his child advance from having to hold hand to fully taking on the challenge of living.
Amazing work as always!
Thank you 🙏🏼
Oh, thank you for this. You are such a guy. I am going back to India next month for a four month geriatric run around the country. The Indian Museum in Delhi has the best stuff in the country, but it is surprising how most of the carvings only go back a thousand years, very few over two thousand years which for a five thousand year old Hindu religion seems a little puzzling. The Bangkok National Museum has a wonderful collection of Buddha statues from all over Korea, China, Myanmar, Thailand. Especially the funky oval shaped heads of those Myanmar Buddhas are the best, and you can shoot photos sans flash in both of these Museums. Shoot everything you see. It is gorgeous. Surya the sun god is cool, too, and can be seen also in the national museums in Hanoi and Saigon along with Cham Hindu art in the Cham Museum in Danang. But the Bangkok National Museum is a good starter and easier to get to. The Jakarta National Museum has been pretty much pilfered. The New York Met has an excellent Buddhist/ Hindu collection.
Reply
My position on the non-historicity of Jesus isn't that a guy who the story was built around couldn't have existed. It's that if what is stated in the Gospels did not happen, then that guy strictly speaking isn't Jesus. This will feel unrelated but follow me. It's the same argument I use for people who believe Germany could've won WW2. Almost all scenarios boil down to the Germans not fighting or delaying fighting one of the major belligerents. But once you've removed one of the major combatants, you're no longer talking about WW2. You're talking about a smaller different war. In the same way if Jesus did not do almost exactly what is described in the Gospel, then you're not describing a historical Jesus. You're talking about a very different man at that point. Since it is almost certain that the specific events, particularly miracles, of the Gospels did not occur, I maintain there cannot be a historical Jesus as presented in the Bible. He was probably a guy named Yeshua who was a follower of someone named John. Perhaps an early or at the very least the most charismatic student of John's who through that charisma was able to take his place after John's death. Yeshua did whatever he did in power. We will never know what that was for sure. Then he is killed. Now put yourself in the position of his followers. You've had your two charismatic leaders who you put on a pedestal both put to death. And not only that but to everyday people outside of your cult these guys were just regular people, slightly eccentric but just regular dudes. You see everyone around you carry on with there lives like it's no big deal, but how can that be? These were great men who could do no wrong and who saw what these uninitiated people could not see. How could there lives not be affected by killing them. No no no there must be more to it than that. So you fabricate stories about your former teacher using Old Testament prophecies to set up your framework and create your narrative from there. It requires Jesus to be absolutely nothing in life as he is described in the Bible. It simply requires he has to be a charismatic Jew. There is no way to prove whether Jesus actually taught these things or if they were completely altered after his death.
Very nice lecture again. Too bad it's be late to attend it live from The Netherlands. Is there any evidence or reason to believe the Jewish Christians (the Jerusalem church) thought that Jesus resurrected ? Could it not be that the only cause for this story was the vision of Paul and the Jerusalem church was more concerned with the teachings of Jesus in stead of his bodily appearance ?
Why wouldn’t a burgeoning religion want to have real-life examples of not only their savior existing in exquisite detail but also demonstrating infallible proof that he came back from the dead? It would be a hail mary that would instantly legitimize themselves and would not only pretty much convert the entirety of Palestine but also galvanize the Jewish people throughout the Roman World.
Paul never meet Yeshuah. The knowledge about Yeshuah comes from voices in Paul's head. Not to mention that Paul claimed to have been in the third heaven. This is the oldest source about Christianity a man healing voices in his head. One could consider him mentally ill on the one hand and superflous on the other when a real person could tell real followers all they need to know. So it made never sense to have Paul the one who imagined it all as oldest source and then later stories about Hesus who contradicted Paul ot invented stories Paul never heard about.
Jesus words would not hold any weight in the minds of the vulgar masses if it wasn't that Jesus rose from the dead.
@@termination9353 So It didn't matter what he said, just that he rose from the dead. That's a bit bleak. And the vulgur masses that followed him were Pauls masses. There's no telling how big the Jerusalem community was, but it seemed pale compared to Pauls. Maybe because Paul had a resurrection narrative and James, John and Peter did not. Edit> But having thought about it some more I think you're probably right. It does make sense.
@@baviu002 Paul was never accepted by the Apostles/community at Jerusalem. In the end they were fed up with Paul and framed him up to be a pariah of the temple and he had to be sent back to Rome where he came from.
I hope I can go to a John Hamer lecture someday
What about the Hebrew bones in Egypt, and ancient Egyptian poem, talking about the plagues and giving jewelry to people that brought the plagues. I can’t remember all the details right now I would have to come back and post the sources for that. I also saw an Egyptian tomb that looked like it portrayed Joseph in a statue. There is also a canal that is named after Joseph in Egypt. That is all fantasy?
But... does what Josephus say about John the Baptist state that he knows that Antipas killed a real person who was John the Baptist or does he say that's what "Christian" Jews believe happened?? Also, was the prisoner sent to Herod, the person named John??
The text in the slide does not definitively state that John was an actual person. It seems to state that the belief in John and his teachings were problematic enough to have a representative disciple/prisoner sent to be killed.
I enjoy all of these great lectures but then I remember no miracles ever took place and no gods have ever intervened. Once science, technology, education and literacy evolved, gods just stopped showing up. Coincidence?
could "the one who called" the Galatians be the Holy Spirit and not Paul?