Do you guys agree with our assessment on why Saruman didn't take Gandalf's Elven Ring? And can you come up with any other possible reasons? As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
As always, I appreciate your thorough research and delicious visuals and score. To me, the fact that Gandalf could keep his staff and sword as well indicates that Saruman either wanted to appease Gandalf (to recruit him, or even change allegiance himself once again) or that Gandalf could have still resisted him, i.e. he would not want to risk another fight, as in "who knows what Gandalf (who I secretly believe to be stronger than me) will unleash if I try to take what is concealed on his finger" So I think it's safer to assume that Saruman's reasons for not seizing the ring were the same reasons for which he didn't confiscate staff and Glamdring, because it's uncertain whether he knew about the ring or was able to perceive it. Your argument that he hoped Gandalf may reveal more information about the One and wanted not to further antagonise him seems the strongest. Saruman was not in a position to turn down even a slight chance for information on that. Actually, Gandalf's describes his capture with a single vague sentence as I recall. Is it possible that Saruman actually did not overpower him or duel him, but that he merely lured him into a trap? That would imply that he would not want to fight Gandalf directly which may be needed to grab his stuff. It's actually a significant question as Gandalf was also described as the 2nd most powerful being to Sauron, so how did Saruman pull that off? Finally, there's a psychological aspect. In the version where Saruman learns of Círdan giving Narya to Gandalf, he is hurt in his pride. Any attempt to seize this ring may have seemed to Gandalf (whose opinion meant something to Saruman) and Saruman himself as a very petty action of childish envy, which is not something you want to be reminded of when you admire yourself in the mirror with a new ring.
She said he was able to see (perceive) her Ring because he held the One. I can't imagine the power Galadriel would have if she accepted the One Ring from Frodo while being a Holder of one of the Three.
I think that some small part of Saruman actually feared taking Narya "For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." Nothing would undo his ambitions more thoroughly than the ring restoring his better nature.
Easy answer. Galadriel explains this when she is talking to Frodo in her garden when he offers her The One Ring. She says, that only someone in possession of a Ring of Power can see another Ring of Power. Something not stated in the book but which was heavily implied is that a ring cannot be taken, but only given or found. Not one ring of power was taken that was also later used. Several were taken by dragons and according to Gandalf were destroyed by the Dragons who took them, but none were ever used again.
this makes no sense as everyone Frodo came into contact with could see and interact with his ring of power. The one ring was taken from sauron in combat, so even that doesn't hold true.
@@timq6224 There is a difference that you are forgetting. The One Ring wanted to be taken by people it thought were more powerful than Frodo, which being a Hobbit was just about everyone. Each person that Frodo met, the One Ring, "talked" to them in their mind saying "Take me, you deserve me, kill this worthless Hobbit ..." and so on. The One Ring was cut from Sauron's finger by accident. Isildur merely struck out with the broken blade and it reeved the fingers from Sauron's hand that bore the One Ring. After that, Isildur was greatest in the One Ring's Eye since Sauron was disembodied at the time. Isildur could see it and took it.
@@Josh-fh5ox You are a bit confused. The One Ring wants to be found and taken to Sauron. Being stuck on Frodo's body, dead or alive does it no good. This is no different than when it intentionally fell from Gollum's finger when it realized he would never leave those caves he had been in for 60 years. Frodo had done all the One Ring thought he could and he was now going to be Shelob's meal when she got around to eating him. The One Ring would take a very long time to get to Sauron under that circumstance. Perhaps if you read the books and paid attention to the details therein that might have served you well.
OK wait so I have a couple of question. Regrding the ring, about how "A ring CANNOT be taken, but ONLY given or found." Why did Smeagol/Gollum killed his cousin Deagol to take the one ring from him? And also, didn't Boromir tried to take one ring from Frodo as well?
Saruman, I find shares so many similarities with Count Dooku(up to and including being played by the late Sir Christopher Lee) that I feel the passage below could just as easily be written about Saruman as Dooku. His superiority complex is derived from secret insecurity and envy of those he subconsciously fears might be better than he is while also being impatient with the frustrations of trying to order the world conventionally. "Love, hate, joy, anger-even when he can feel the energy of these emotions in others, they translate in his perception to other kinds of feelings. The kinds that make sense. Jealousy he understands, and possessiveness: he is fierce when any being encroaches on what is rightfully his. Intolerance, at the intractability of the universe, and at the undisciplined lives of its inhabitants: this is his normal state. Spite is a recreation: he takes considerable pleasure from the suffering of his enemies. Pride is a virtue in an aristocrat, and indignation his inalienable right: when any dare to impugn his integrity, his honor, or his rightful place atop the natural hierarchy of authority. And moral outrage makes perfect sense to him: when the incorrigibly untidy affairs of ordinary beings refuse to conform to the plainly obvious structure of How Society Ought To Be. He is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him. Or to him."
I wouldn't say Duku fitted into that description 100% Douku was a lot like Anarkin in some ways, he had a lot of love and respect for his Jedi friends but he didn't agree with there methods and fell to the dark side, but his love for them never truly disappeared. He fought his old master Yoda but never truly hated him, it was more a battle of conviction than of hate. I would say Douku fits into the category of a Gray Jedi, a balanced Jedi that is one with aspects of both the light and dark side of the force, but doesn't fit into either the ways of the Jedi or the Sith. Unlike Maul Douku never gave into Rage, he was always calm and collected in battle just like the Jedi, he never gave into Hate either like the emperor did when he used force lightning on Mace Windu. His Jedi Training was always apparent in every confrontation with him. In some ways it made him more dangerous than the Sith themselves, because he could master the dark side without giving into it. I'd say Anarkin had more in common with Saruman than Douku does. I wouldn't say Douku had a superiority complex, Anarkin definitely but I'd say Douku was just consumed by fear of the Dark Side and fell while trying to face his insacurities.
I'm pretty sure it was written in Tolkiens works, that at the point of Gandalfs defeat and capture by Saruman in Isengard, Saruman still was very unsure and conflicted about his decisions and his alliance with Sauron, but he was already so deep in it, that didn't have a way out. If i remember correctly it was written, that Saruman was about to go to Gandalf on top of Orthanc to ask him for forgiveness and help, but at that point Gandalf was already flying away on Gwaihir and Sarumans chance and potential change of heart was too late and gone, because at that point the White Council saw him as an enemy as well and he was on its own.
I found the Istari chapter very interesting in Unfinished Tales. I sometimes wonder if Saruman knowing that Gandalf had the ring of fire is canon or not. That Saruman was unsure of his purposes and ready to ask forgiveness from Gandalf is there too, but no hint of this attitude was obvious in other timeline stories like in The Search For The Ring when the Nazgul Witch King came a knocking on Isengard's front door searching for knowledge of the location of The Shire and Saruman lied to them, but he did tell them that Gandalf was in Rohan and that Gandalf knew where The Shire was. All of the Nine could not by themselves conquer Isengard by themselves without an Army behind them. They couldn't even stand up to Gandalf's wrath on Weathertop in broad daylight and as Gandalf put it, they didn't even dare to try. Unfortunately for Saruman his treacherous servant Grima Wormtongue was captured by the Nazgul and told them of Saruman's double dealing and told them where The Shire was. Throughout The Search chapter it tells of Saruman's servants blocking and taking Sauron's servants out. Sauron had noticed Saruman's treachery much earlier and held his anger back for the day of reckoning. In Book Two when Strider was discussing Saruman's dealing with other members of the Fellowship and when Gandalf gave Saruman one last offer Saruman was too far gone to come out of Orthanc even though for any reasonable person Saruman should have left his plans behind and helped the West to fight Sauron, but he didn't. For those reasons and others I do not think Saruman going to ask Gandalf forgiveness is canon. Saruman by that time was too far gone. Look at him in The Scouring Of The Shire, out of sheer spite he tried to stab Frodo.
Saruman was trying to win the game for himself while ALSO positioning himself to appear to both sides to have been on the winning side (whichever side won), once the game had been played out. Complicated business.
@@MountainFisher Valid points, but have you considered that Saruman in this instance of trying to ask Gandalf for forgiveness was motivated more by fear and self-preservation than rediscovering commitment his initial mission?
@@MountainFisher On the other hand, Sauron himself once thought about asking for forgiveness, after Morgoth's forces were totally crushed and he was captured. So if someone like Sauron could have a temporary change of heart, then it's not inconceivable that Saruman was once trying to repent to Gandalf.
Because he mimicked sauron in everything one could maybe make a quess that he propably copied sauron in other things as well. Maybe he also tried to create " a watching eye" for himself.
Yeah everyone misses that fact. He ended up crafting a lesser ring. It would have been bound to the same power and laws as the 20 great rings so it would have been de-powered after saurons fall
If Saruman had been smart, he would have copied Sauron and made a personal ring of power connected to only his own power. That way he could come back (like Sauron did) even if his physical body was destroyed (but his ring still existed). Imagine him coming back to the Shire after hundreds of years of reforming.
I think firstly Saruman thought Gandalf would eventually surrender to him when he realized men are doomed and the only possible way to stop Sauron was to aid Saruman become the lord of the rings. We cannot forget Saruman thought his cause was just, in a ends justify the means sort of way. Thus it would serve him poorly to further antagonize Gandalf. Secondly, Saruman saw two possible end scenarios: become the lord of the rings, or serve Sauron, in neither case would having Gandalf’s ring benefited him. Thirdly, Saruman was a coward. If his plan would fail and the free people would be victorious. The treatment of Gandalf would be reflect on him. He spared Gandalf for not joining him, and hoped to be treated the same, as he was. Lastly, even Saruman was not without dignity. Stealing his fellow Istari’s personal belongs out of greed was below him.
*Saruman* was a coward, though, certain he could defeat *Gandalf,* head-to-head. He chose the perfect moment to reveal his deceptive nature, which *Gandalf* was most assuredly aware of to some degree, if not entirely.
It is said by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond about 1 of the 7 rings: "The ring was taken by torture from Thrain..." Why Torture? Why not just take it? I think the rings of power protect themselves. Even Sauron could not just grab it from the hand of Thrain as long as he resisted. So, the feat of taking a ring of power from a bearer is not a simple thing. Isildur and even Gollum needed special circumstances to do so. Therefor I also think, that Saruman COULD NOT just simply take it from Gandalf, even if he knew about it.
@@ReasonAboveEverything Or perhaps they can only be passed on willingly. The three Elven rings were made without Sauron's direct involvement and I wouldn't put it past Celebrimbor to sneak such a caveat into his private creations. Remember, none of the Elven rings changed hands save by the will of their owner, first from Gil-Galad to Elrond and Cirdan and then Cirdan to Gandalf. It would make sense for a smith as skilled and clever as Celebrimbor to Lojack his magnum opus.
There seems to be some differences of opinion as to what constitutes canon. In my definition, and I emphasize that this is only my opinion, canon is the three volumes, The Hobbit, and The Silmarillion. The Unfinished Tales and The Lost Worlds are just that: unfinished and incomplete. I see them as notebooks to which the Professor referred as he crafted the volumes I listed above. Christopher Tolkien himself warned us, in the foreword to The Silmarillion, that an internal consistency between tales was not possible and should not be sought for. It is for that reason that I have established the boundaries (for myself) of canon as the five volumes listed above. Anything outside of that is interesting speculation, but not at all binding. Your mileage may vary.
I wouldn't say the hobbit or the silmerilion was incomplete. The unfinished tales yes, it's in the title, unfinished. But the Hobbit is the prequel story thats about finding the 1 ring. And the silmerilion is a backstory for all the factions of Middle earth in the Lord of the rings. How the orcs where created, how the rift formed between elves and dwarves, how the line of numenor came into existence and fell. Who Gandalf and the other wizards actually are, Where sauron came from, its a book of myths, its not supposed to be 100% accurate. Just like history has many different versions and isn't 100% accurate. The lost world's where ment as a bedtime story for his kids, they weren't ment to be part of the Lord of the rings saga of stories, Christopher Tolkien himself admitted that's why his father wrote them. They where just published by Christopher Tolkien after his father died because of how much he loved his father and them. The only books that are truly Cannon are Silmerilion, The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings trilogy. The unfinished tales where exactly that, unfinished, stories Tolkien was working on but never finished them. They got published out of love and respect for him, same with lost worlds, it was a bedtime story, a story ment for only his family members that was published out of love and respect, they weren't ment to be cannon or he'd have released them when he wrote them.
@@fenhen I agree with most of the original post yes. The only things about the original post I don't agree with is not seeing the silmarilian and the hobbit as Cannon. The Hobbit is a prequel story about finding the one ring, the rest of it is just a adventure of Bilbo. The silmarilian is basicly a story of myths just like real world history, not enough evidence exists to prove them right but too much evidence exists to prove them wrong so your left wondering what the truth is. Both where intended to be cannon. But I agree with the original post that unfinished tales and lost worlds aren't cannon.
@@taggie2457 As I said before, I agree with most of what that post said. Please read my original post properly as I was agreeing that the silmarilian and hobbit should be seen as Cannon but saying unfinished tales and lost worlds shouldn't be seen as Cannon. The point I was making to people was that the silmarilian isn't ment to be accurate but it is a finished stroy. Unfinished tales was a potential story that got abandoned because Tolkien couldn't find a way to resolve the stories without sacrificing his beliefs. it shouldn't be taken as Cannon. Silmarilian souldnt be rejected as Cannon because it is "unfinished" in some peoples eyes. history is never fully recorded and lies often get passed down through the ages. The silmarilian should be seen as a book of myths that are true but not accurate. The hobbit like I said is a prequel story that's ment to set the stage for LOTR by showing us the danger the ring poses. Golem and his 500 year long life, the hobbit was written to introduce him. While also introducing why Frodo is so resilient to the rings influence like his uncle Bilbo. But it is still a adventure and people often exagurate their adventures. Any inconsistencies should be seen like Bilbo Exaggerating his adventures. The lost worlds was just a bedtime story, a fantasy Tolkien dreamed up to tell his kids. People should think of it like a what if? Story. A fantasy withing a fantasy, just like people like Tolkien in our world dream up stories like LOTR. Think of lost worlds like the people of Middle earth dreaming up The lost worlds. Thinking of them like that and all the inconsistencies between the stories make sense.
Assuming Saruman knew Gandalf had Narya, it’s lack of usefulness for attaining dominion seems the most likely reason for not wanting it. But if he wanted it, the only good reasons for not taking it are because it would require some level of risk and could be more easily done later, or because he could not. The former makes the most sense in light of Gandalf also still being left Glamdring and his staff, but the ability to conceal it certainly seems well founded. However, the one thing I think you left out which is also a possible factor is that if Gandalf kept Narya and Saruman gained the One Ring, Saruman would be able to gain immense influence over him, since the One was designed to control the weirdest of the others.
If Saruman were to put on the One Ring, it would be very unlikely that he could gain influence over Gandalf in the way that he would the Nazgûl. The High Elves who first wore the Three Elven Rings (Celebrimbor and a couple of the Elven-smiths), when they perceived that Sauron had slipped the One Ring on his finger, immediately knew his intentions and had the willpower to remove them from their fingers. Whether they would have eventually fallen under Sauron’s control is up for debate, but they had the strength to resist him and the powers of the Rings for long enough. I would think that being a Maia, something like a minor deity or angel, Gandalf had an even greater power of will - certainly Saruman’s power to use the Ring would be less than Sauron’s and therefore hold less sway to those who could resist him. I think as soon as Saruman put on the One Ring, Gandalf would know his mind and take Narya from his finger.
I still find it hard to believe that such perfect creations of Eru could possess such a flaw as deep-set insecurity. It isn't any different than other mythologies, but they are written by human beings, who aren't perfect, either. I suppose one isn't expected to look too far behind the curtain, as was once said in The Wizard of Oz.
@@szabok1999 Manwae: Aule, we need to talk about how you train your aprentences. Aule: Yavanna, a little help here. Yavanna: This is a YOU problem. Aule: Are you STILL salty about the dwarves situation? Yavanna: YES, YES I AM!
@@rikk319 We have to remember Morgoth in this, as well as Tolkien's Christian background. Much like the Devil was always there, "A liar and a murderer from the beginning" I'm pretty sure is how he was once described, Morgoth was also always there, singing his own tune discordant with Eru's Song. Also, iirc, the Valar and Maiar weren't actually created by Eru, only the Elves and Men were. As Eru sung, his voice began to echo, and those echoes became their own people, who added their voices to the mix, which then echoed again, forming a much larger chorus. Or at least, as far as I remember.
I also tend to believe this is the most likely reason it wasn’t taken. Even if Saruman knew about Gandalf being given the ring, that doesn’t mean that he could perceive that Gandalf had it with him still. The concealment of the elven rings was incredibly powerful, and I tend to believe that played the biggest role in Gandalf keeping it. I also have a theory that what we think of as the “body” of a maiar is not nearly as limited as the “bodies” of mortals. Where the body of a mortal is limited to just their own flesh and blood, I think the “bodies” of wizards and balrogs, for example, are defined more by the way they see themselves. After all, where did Durin’s Bane acquire its whip of flame if it wasn’t a part of him? How did Glamdring and Gandalf’s elven ring come back with him as Gandalf the White? I believe it’s because, in a certain sense, those things, along with his staff, had become a part of his identity, and therefore a part of his “body.” And how could Saruman take anything from Gandalf that was a part of him? Now this is all wild speculation of course, but I thought I would share anyway as some food for thought.
Couldn't Saruman have felt the fingers of Gandalf's hand until he felt the invisible ring? I know it isn't a romantic picture, but wasn't that possible, if he chose to take the Ring from Gandalf?
@@Enerdhil I'm pretty sure 'concealment' means much more than 'invisible' in LOTR. Saruman never had the opportunity to search for the ring because he could not perceive it, not just with his eyes.
I really don't think the concealment thing is that big of an issue. If it merely hid it from sight you could just lop off Gandalf hand or something to get the ring. But even if you believe it was completely wiped from all memory and no one could think of the secret in it's presence it doesn't explain him letting Gandalf keep the sword or any other magical item on his person.
I think Saruman thought of Narya as a symbol approving his wisdom and power and therefore his position in the council. When a lesser Gandalf was given the ring instead, it became a reminder of the shame he felt, which gradually over the years calcified to his seething hatred for Gandalf. Gandalf was wise enough to see it, but I think he knew he needed it to carry on his duties.
at 2:50, that is one of the most mesmerizing images of Galadriel I've ever seen. Nice job!! The cost of trying to take the ring would never be recovered. As you said.
I think I have to reread the passages on how Saruman captured Gandalf. Because when I read the LoTR as a child, I only imagined Gandalf as trapped, not as defeated like in the movie. I always thought that there wasn't an actual physical confrontation and therefore Saruman was in no position to take away anything from Gandalf. He was content that he prevented Gandalf from leaving and that was enough for him at that moment.
Agree; would not serve his purpose. As a Maiar, unlikely he would not perceive it. Also possible that, while Saruman was able to imprison Gandalf, vanquishing him altogether so he could actually seize the ring might be another thing altogether and beyond his power without the one.
The problem with the supposition that Saruman's status as a Maia (btw, Maiar is plural) is that Sauron is one too, but by all accounts the elves were able to hide the Three from him.
@@GreyhawkTheAngry While Sauron still wore the One Ring, Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel all hid their rings from him. Probably by not wearing them. It wasn't until he was defeated, and the One was lost, that they carefully used the Three's powers again.
Very simple, because the 3 elven rings are meant to conceal, preserve, heal and inspire. Not to grant the wielder greater power. Also, he couldn't see Narya, because the rings conceal themselves to all except the other 2 bearers of the Elven rings.
Yup this is the first time I've watched a video with the new voice and I'm pretty disappointed, does karl not think his voice is good enough or something? His voice is great :(
5:57 They might not contribute but why leave Gandalf in possession of something like that? He might not take it to wield himself but certainly, he would have taken it to deny its power to others. even to use to bargain with Sauron. I think the reason it stayed on Gandalfs finger was that it posed no immediate threat to him and Saruman probably didn't believe that Gandalf could have escaped. I honestly believe that he didn't take it because of an oversight on Tolkien's part.
I have a different take. It's possible that Gandalf didn't take his ring with him when he went on dangerous journeys. He was always out in the wild and poking into places like Mirkwood and Dol Guldur. It wouldn't be very wise to take his ring with him, so close to servants of Sauon. I imagine he left it in Rivendell when he went abroad. Furthermore, the keeper of a ring didn't need to carry it with him to use its power. The Nazgul's rings were held by Sauron, but the Black Riders still had the power and unnaturally long lives that their rings conveyed.
Hmmm. I don't think he took the ring off. Situations, such as a balrog in Moria, come to mind. And the rings were precious enough to not leave somewhere.
Seems like he would likely take it just to insult Gandalf if he could. If he was secretly insecure of Gandalf however, he might’ve thought that if pushed Gandalf to it he couldn’t take the ring. Gandalf might not have been able to defeat Saruman when acting solely to defend himself - but if pushed to give Saruman a tool that would aid in his evil perhaps Gandalf would’ve had no choice but to unleash full effort against him? Also it makes total sense he would avoid anything that would risk revealing his mind to Sauron. That is reason enough.
Saruman did not take Gandalf's ring because, when the three rings were worn, they went into the realm of the invisible, and I believe that only the bearer could give them.
I always figured Saruman wanted Gandalf to escape, other wise he could of imprisoned him far better under ground or at least in a locked cage etc. This served two goals, first off as Gandalf escaped he would spread word of Saruman's betrayal, selling his loyalty to Sauron better as the information got back to his spies. But it would also let him follow Gandalf as his best lead to where the one ring might be. Plus give Sauron something else to worry about, a real threat he would focus on.
All valid points, good Sir. Thanks for yet another great vid. i would also propose, that perhaps Saruman also realized that taking the Ring from Gandalf would have been a risky venture since no doubt Gandalf would have fought hard to keep it from him. Like any alpha predator facing a formidable prey, the risk of injury and possible death must be weighed against the reward. Saruman no doubt considered that being severely wounded or disabled by Gandalf would put him out of the game for a lengthy period of time and time was not something he had a lot of at that point. :)
Another thing to consider is from something Gandalf said to Frodo in the chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past' to explain why he couldn't forcefully take the ring from Bilbo. That doing so wasn't just 'wrong' but also potentially damaging to the ring bearer in question ('breaking' I believe was the phrasing). If Saruman still saw Gandalf as being useful in whatever plans he had, taking the ring might have been considered counterproductive to his efforts.
I think it was a combination of this, plus the twin considerations of if Saruman finds The One, then he would be able to control Gandalf through Narya / If Sauron finds the One, he would be able to control Saruman through Narya if he used it. He wasn’t sure yet whether he wanted to destroy Gandalf or subjugate him and use him for his own purposes. I tend to think that Gandalf had for years deferred to Saruman to appease his ego and to avoid antagonizing him further. Gandalf’s patient restraint and deception was still paying off as Saruman thought of him as a potentially powerful servant if he could dominate him further and he felt he had made some progress in that direction.
Ok so he didn't think Gandalf's ring would be useful to him. It was certainly useful to Gandalf. If not for his own power then why not take it to weaken Gandalf? And wouldn't it be useful in his dealings with Sauron? Again if not to use it surely to ingratiate himself with the dark lord. Perhaps he knew that Gandalf possessed one of the elven rings but he wasn't aware that he was carrying it with him. Other than that I agree that it's likely he didn't want to anger Gandalf and he simply had no chance to take the ring off of him before he was rescued.
The video sort of covers this I think, Saruman believed there were only two outcomes of the war of the ring, either he or sauron would find the ring. If he had taken Gandalf's ring, and Sauron got the One ring back, Sauron would read Saruman's mind and discover he was meaning to betray him and destroy him. If he let Gandalf keep it, and Saruman found the One ring, he would have dominion over Gandalf instead. I think of the Elven rings as leashes attached to the One Ring, powerful artifacts but liabilities in the presence of the One
@@slamindorf5478 Well yes but he didn't have to keep it or use it himself. He could have sent the ring to Sauron as a way the ingratiate himself with the dark lord.
@@Caleb_Evans32 I mean he was already allied with sauron, agreeing to raise an army to destroy rohan is a pretty big commitment plus he was planning to betray him so giving sauron an edge is not in his interest. Also having that ring being kept by Gandalf benefits both sauron/saruman as whoever gets the One ring would dominate gandalf.
With Gandalf having both artifacts, the ring and the sword, Saramon knew where both were, more or less. Therefore he could keep tabs on them for the time most appropriate to sequester them. That time never arrived.
Whenever they read out the patrions at the end it kind of reminds me on Dumbledore reading out the name of the honourables of the respective houses. Like it a lot :)
Now I like to think that Saruman, who greatly cared for what Gandalf thought, could not bear the idea that he would look at Saruman with contempt, if he'd reveal himself to be a petty thiev. After all, Saruman could not even admit to Gandalf that he acquired a taste for pipeweed 🌿🍁🍃
Thank you so much. I’ve thought the same views on these matters for a long time but never found anyone who’s ever made a vid or discussion on it. Especially sarumans lesser ring that he crafted. No one mentions it.
Even if he didn’t want to use Narya for himself, wouldn’t depriving the Free Peoples of such a valuable artifact (which served to inspire courage in others, i.e. Saruman’s enemies) serve his own goals of finding the One Ring?
When the great Rings are discussed in the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says that Sauron knew Gollum's Ring was not one of the Three, "for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil." Even had Saruman known Gandalf had Narya, he would also have known he could not claim it and use it for evil purposes. The only way Sauron could dominate the Three was by placing the greater part of his native strength into the One Ring, and Saruman lacked both the knowledge and the power to match such a feat.
Even though they didn't have any of Sauron's corruption within them, they would still answer to the One Ring. I imagine it's probably because Sauron's knowledge and teachings were used in their creation even though he never directly helped create them. :)
I've heard it explained that all the great rings share a foundational...I think _formula_ was the word used, a formula that Sauron instructed Celebrimbor and his kin with. So even though the Three were free of corruption, they were still tied to the One.
Two things go with power: The need to be built up.... The need to hold others down... Saruman wouldn't want Gandalf's ring.... Once HE possessed the ONE RING.. He would rule over Gandalf and Gandalf's ring would bind him to Saruman. If Saruman had researched the evidence, he knew would be able to bind all those that had rings and then force them under his rule.
Sauron put so much of his spirit into the One Ring in order to overcome those limitations. The main limitation to the One Ring seems to be that it only affects all the rings that existed prior to it
Just happened upon this channel and am very impressed with the information and content produced by whom I presume to be a fellow Maltese person :P Keep up the great work and hope you're managing with your studies!
My take was always that any ring save one of his own creation was bound to bend its will to the One ring. In his bid to become Sauron’s equal, he forged his own ring unbound to the One and without the “weakness” of the other rings. He felt his own creation was simply superior.
I don’t know that if Sauron got the ring first that he would have even killed Sauramon. Keep in mind that they are both well aware of each other being Maiar and that a death of the psychical body was not death for their souls or beings. If Sauron had the ring, he could inflict all manor or torture and punishment on Sauramon for all of eternity. If I were the dark lord, the price for betrayal would not be so light as death. Especially for a Maiar.
he didnt completely subdue gandalf he just floated him up to the top of the tower. he might have been afraid to get that close until he was much weaker from exposure.
Actually I do agree I think everything you say is very sound and makes complete sense. And it would make very much sense for him to make his own ring because it would not be bound in any way shape or form to the one ring because the one ring was made last of the 20 rings made so sauron put his intentions into the one ring to rule the 19 this would not have included saruman's ring which would be completely free from the one ring..... So there would be no risk in him having his own ring of power made by himself and since he was a Maier of Aule he had equal skill as did Sauron... Yet he was diminished because of being in his fleshly man form.....
They did not see each other too often! So while they were avara of eacothers. They did not meat unless for very important reason. Saruman was a wise and the leader of white councill. Gandalf did put his edford more toward common people. So the change of Sarumans mind was not revealed to Gandalf, untill it was too Late. Saruman was wery carefull and did hide his true intentions very Well!
@@haukionkannel he didn't notice Bilbo turning either but again he didn't see Bilbo very often. It wasn't until his 111th birthday he became aware he possessed a ring of power. And only then did he notice Bilbo change in attitude. But that could be put down to the manipulation of the one ring, biding it's time to be found by Sauron.
Did he have the ring at that point though? I always though Círdan only gave it to him when he returned from the west after being sent back by Illuvatar to aid in the fight against Sauron.
@1:45, I've heard that Tolkein wrote until he hit a "roadblock", then he'd scrap the entire project and begin anew. Maybe this is reflected in The Unfinished Tales and explains this contradiction?
I think your arguments are strong: especially the last ones noting that he didn't take Glamdring and that he would have been exposed to Sauron if he got his hands on the One ring. (Although... if that happened, all his plans would have failed anyway.)
If Sauron were to get the 1 ring back, he may have been able to see the 3 elven rings, but I don't think he could control them. He never touched the 3 rings as the elven smithy, Celebrimbor, waited & made the rings whilst Sauron was not about
They where concealed from the One ring which is why Frodo could only see Nenya when Galadriel willingly allowed him to. My guess is so it would make it harder for Sauron to control them if he did not know who possessed them.
I agree that Saruman left Gandalf the ring as well his staff and sword because Saruman still wanted some kind of alliance with Gandalf. It's an explanation that is simple and fits the facts. If Gandalf hadn't escaped and had continued refusing to cooperate with Saruman then at some point Saruman would have taken them.
The whole section about Saruman gambling to get to the first to betray Sauron is kind of a moot point no? It's exactly that sort of thing Sauron is counting on in his "allies" because he knows the ring will completely corrupt him anyway. It's a win-win situation for Sauron, he either gets to the ring first and is too powerful or he let's it corrupt Saruman and has another powerful wraith. This is why both Gandalf and Galadriel feel they passed a test in the presence of the ring, they knew it would corrupt and dominate them.
I think the last argument about Sauron's power to control the bearers of the rings with the one ring is by far the strongest and most plausible. Well done, but I am also hoping you are still going to do the video about the entwives
So the Elves were always worried about Sauron corrupting their rings should he ever get hold of them, could not Saruman perhaps do the same? Corrupt the powers and purpose of the Elven rings?
There is a very simple answer: the Three Rings "endure no evil" (Fellowship of the Ring p. 68). Doubtless Saruman thought that Gandalf could be manipulated into using the Ring for his benefit.
Why assume "Unfinished Tales" is cannonical? Tolkien changed his mind about his stories a lot. It's easier to reason that Saruman never knew Galdalf held the Ring of Fire. What's a better question is: why didn't Frodo see it? If he could see Galadriel's ring, why not Gandalf's? DId Bilbo see it either? Also, when did Saruman take the Star of Elendil? I thought Elrond kept it in Rivendell, and his sons brought it to Aragorn (along with the banner of the White Tree) when the Rangers came to him. Didn't Aragorn wear the Star during the Battle of Pelennor Fields?
Because Galadriel willingly allowed Frodo to see her ring. The Eleven rings had the ability to conceal themselves from the One ring, which is why Sauron never found them like he did the others.
re - 7:30 I believe GeekZone meant to say that "Gandalf's sword once belonged to the King of Gondolin," and not "... the King of Gondor." It would seem to me that Saruman didn't take Gandalf's ring for the same reasons that Galadriel tells Frodo that his coming is as the footsteps of doom. By that, I mean: Saruman would have known a LOT about the rings of power. Gandalf says as much. He would have known that with the Ruling Ring having been found, that there's no point in owning one of the Elven Rings, since they are subordinate to the Ruling Ring. To put it another way, as long as it was believed and as long as it appeared that the Ruling Ring would never be found, then the Elven rings would seem useful to Saruman, since they could not be dominated by a Ruling Ring that was lost. However, as soon as it became apparent that the Ruling Ring had been found, Saruman would have cared much less about possessing one of the Elven Rings. He would have felt that they would be useless, because if someone else found the Ruling Ring, then all he accomplished with the Elven Rings would have been subject to the power of the Ruling Ring. Similarly, they would be useless to him because if it was he who found the Ruling Ring, then any Elven Rings he possessed would pale in comparison to the Ruling Ring. So, again, as soon as it became known that the Ruling Ring had been found, I'm convinced that Saruman would have lost any interest in pursuing any of the Elven Rings.
Sauron did collaborate with and tutor the elves, but he didn't actually participate in the forging of those 3 rings - that was solely the elves. So he didn't actually have any control over those rings like he did the human and dwarven rings.
Saruman may have wanted to take Narya, but the Three "endure no evil" so it may have rejected him. Even if he couldn't wield it, just having the ring would likely greatly boost his ring-research. Also threatening to take the ring from Gandalf could've been seen as more leverage in his interrogation. Lastly, in when theyre searching Orthanc and discover the Elendilmir jewel and other treasures stashed away, Gandalf calls Saruman a jackdaw (little bird that impulsively collects shiny objects), so the ring wouldve been irresistible to him. 😂
Hmm. I just had an idea, a far fetched one, but just hear me out. We know that the Ring of Water and the Ring of Air (sorry I can't recall the names) preserved Rivendell and Lothlorien in time... and we know that the Shire was somewhat unnoticed or untouched by the outside world. Almost, unchanging... WHAT IF Gandalf's visits throughout the years helped to preserve the SHIRE? Not like the elven lands because he wasn't constantly there, BUT what if the Ring of Fire had some residual effect on the land and perhaps that was a way for Gandalf to indirectly protect the Shire. Hence his constant returns and visitations. This obviously would not be a canonical view as Tolkien did not address it and gave a reason for Gandalf's visits, but perhaps the Ring of Fire still had an affect without him knowing? Just a thought. God bless.
Certainly fits with Narya's theme of encouragement - and the character of hobbits. Perhaps not explicitly canon, but fits into the world Tolkien crafted.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Do you guys agree with our assessment on why Saruman didn't take Gandalf's Elven Ring? And can you come up with any other possible reasons?
As always subtitles are available and feedback is welcome!
What happened to sarumans ring?
As always, I appreciate your thorough research and delicious visuals and score. To me, the fact that Gandalf could keep his staff and sword as well indicates that Saruman either wanted to appease Gandalf (to recruit him, or even change allegiance himself once again) or that Gandalf could have still resisted him, i.e. he would not want to risk another fight, as in "who knows what Gandalf (who I secretly believe to be stronger than me) will unleash if I try to take what is concealed on his finger"
So I think it's safer to assume that Saruman's reasons for not seizing the ring were the same reasons for which he didn't confiscate staff and Glamdring, because it's uncertain whether he knew about the ring or was able to perceive it. Your argument that he hoped Gandalf may reveal more information about the One and wanted not to further antagonise him seems the strongest. Saruman was not in a position to turn down even a slight chance for information on that.
Actually, Gandalf's describes his capture with a single vague sentence as I recall. Is it possible that Saruman actually did not overpower him or duel him, but that he merely lured him into a trap? That would imply that he would not want to fight Gandalf directly which may be needed to grab his stuff. It's actually a significant question as Gandalf was also described as the 2nd most powerful being to Sauron, so how did Saruman pull that off?
Finally, there's a psychological aspect. In the version where Saruman learns of Círdan giving Narya to Gandalf, he is hurt in his pride. Any attempt to seize this ring may have seemed to Gandalf (whose opinion meant something to Saruman) and Saruman himself as a very petty action of childish envy, which is not something you want to be reminded of when you admire yourself in the mirror with a new ring.
@@legiohysterius4624 never had one
Yes agreed
@@joefilippelli5625 he mentions saruman making his own ring in the video as one of the reasons saruman didn't want Gandalf ring
What did Galadriel say to Frodo when he asked about her ring?
“That’s Nenya business.”
Nice
I...... HATE.... YOU....... 😁😭😭🤗🤗
Damn 😂
underrated comment
Cue sad trombone.
"Aw come on, Vilya let me take a look at it anyway?"
"Narya too short and you don't wear shoes."
Saruman was insecure enough to chide Gandalf for "his love of the halfling's leaf" while simultaneously using it himself.
Yeah true! :)
Haha, not even just using it, but buying the more than anyone else!
@@orc001 the man was probably keeping them in business
@@albertnorman4136, I believe that it is supported by information in one of the appendices, not quite sure though.
I think he ended up owning the biggest leaf business in the shire too
Christopher Lee played Saruman so unbelievably well. I can't think of another actor that was as well-suited to the role as he was
She said he was able to see (perceive) her Ring because he held the One. I can't imagine the power Galadriel would have if she accepted the One Ring from Frodo while being a Holder of one of the Three.
I think that some small part of Saruman actually feared taking Narya "For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." Nothing would undo his ambitions more thoroughly than the ring restoring his better nature.
Oh I love this take!
Great take, though consequently if he hasn’t fallen, the rings power to warm hearts and his own power of speech would’ve made for a deadly combo!
Easy answer.
Galadriel explains this when she is talking to Frodo in her garden when he offers her The One Ring. She says, that only someone in possession of a Ring of Power can see another Ring of Power. Something not stated in the book but which was heavily implied is that a ring cannot be taken, but only given or found. Not one ring of power was taken that was also later used. Several were taken by dragons and according to Gandalf were destroyed by the Dragons who took them, but none were ever used again.
this makes no sense as everyone Frodo came into contact with could see and interact with his ring of power. The one ring was taken from sauron in combat, so even that doesn't hold true.
@@timq6224 There is a difference that you are forgetting. The One Ring wanted to be taken by people it thought were more powerful than Frodo, which being a Hobbit was just about everyone. Each person that Frodo met, the One Ring, "talked" to them in their mind saying "Take me, you deserve me, kill this worthless Hobbit ..." and so on.
The One Ring was cut from Sauron's finger by accident. Isildur merely struck out with the broken blade and it reeved the fingers from Sauron's hand that bore the One Ring. After that, Isildur was greatest in the One Ring's Eye since Sauron was disembodied at the time. Isildur could see it and took it.
@@cadengrace5466 Sam straight up takes it off a living person.
@@Josh-fh5ox You are a bit confused. The One Ring wants to be found and taken to Sauron. Being stuck on Frodo's body, dead or alive does it no good. This is no different than when it intentionally fell from Gollum's finger when it realized he would never leave those caves he had been in for 60 years.
Frodo had done all the One Ring thought he could and he was now going to be Shelob's meal when she got around to eating him. The One Ring would take a very long time to get to Sauron under that circumstance. Perhaps if you read the books and paid attention to the details therein that might have served you well.
OK wait so I have a couple of question. Regrding the ring, about how
"A ring CANNOT be taken, but ONLY given or found."
Why did Smeagol/Gollum killed his cousin Deagol to take the one ring from him? And also, didn't Boromir tried to take one ring from Frodo as well?
Saruman, I find shares so many similarities with Count Dooku(up to and including being played by the late Sir Christopher Lee) that I feel the passage below could just as easily be written about Saruman as Dooku. His superiority complex is derived from secret insecurity and envy of those he subconsciously fears might be better than he is while also being impatient with the frustrations of trying to order the world conventionally.
"Love, hate, joy, anger-even when he can feel the energy of these emotions in others, they translate in his perception to other kinds of feelings. The kinds that make sense. Jealousy he understands, and possessiveness: he is fierce when any being encroaches on what is rightfully his. Intolerance, at the intractability of the universe, and at the undisciplined lives of its inhabitants: this is his normal state. Spite is a recreation: he takes considerable pleasure from the suffering of his enemies. Pride is a virtue in an aristocrat, and indignation his inalienable right: when any dare to impugn his integrity, his honor, or his rightful place atop the natural hierarchy of authority. And moral outrage makes perfect sense to him: when the incorrigibly untidy affairs of ordinary beings refuse to conform to the plainly obvious structure of How Society Ought To Be. He is entirely incapable of caring what any given creature might feel for him. He cares only what that creature might do for him. Or to him."
True that's a great point!
Sounds like the description of a narcissist?
I wouldn't say Duku fitted into that description 100% Douku was a lot like Anarkin in some ways, he had a lot of love and respect for his Jedi friends but he didn't agree with there methods and fell to the dark side, but his love for them never truly disappeared. He fought his old master Yoda but never truly hated him, it was more a battle of conviction than of hate. I would say Douku fits into the category of a Gray Jedi, a balanced Jedi that is one with aspects of both the light and dark side of the force, but doesn't fit into either the ways of the Jedi or the Sith. Unlike Maul Douku never gave into Rage, he was always calm and collected in battle just like the Jedi, he never gave into Hate either like the emperor did when he used force lightning on Mace Windu. His Jedi Training was always apparent in every confrontation with him. In some ways it made him more dangerous than the Sith themselves, because he could master the dark side without giving into it. I'd say Anarkin had more in common with Saruman than Douku does. I wouldn't say Douku had a superiority complex, Anarkin definitely but I'd say Douku was just consumed by fear of the Dark Side and fell while trying to face his insacurities.
I'm pretty sure it was written in Tolkiens works, that at the point of Gandalfs defeat and capture by Saruman in Isengard, Saruman still was very unsure and conflicted about his decisions and his alliance with Sauron, but he was already so deep in it, that didn't have a way out. If i remember correctly it was written, that Saruman was about to go to Gandalf on top of Orthanc to ask him for forgiveness and help, but at that point Gandalf was already flying away on Gwaihir and Sarumans chance and potential change of heart was too late and gone, because at that point the White Council saw him as an enemy as well and he was on its own.
Right, that is in Unfinished Tales of Middle-Earth :-)
I found the Istari chapter very interesting in Unfinished Tales. I sometimes wonder if Saruman knowing that Gandalf had the ring of fire is canon or not. That Saruman was unsure of his purposes and ready to ask forgiveness from Gandalf is there too, but no hint of this attitude was obvious in other timeline stories like in The Search For The Ring when the Nazgul Witch King came a knocking on Isengard's front door searching for knowledge of the location of The Shire and Saruman lied to them, but he did tell them that Gandalf was in Rohan and that Gandalf knew where The Shire was. All of the Nine could not by themselves conquer Isengard by themselves without an Army behind them. They couldn't even stand up to Gandalf's wrath on Weathertop in broad daylight and as Gandalf put it, they didn't even dare to try.
Unfortunately for Saruman his treacherous servant Grima Wormtongue was captured by the Nazgul and told them of Saruman's double dealing and told them where The Shire was. Throughout The Search chapter it tells of Saruman's servants blocking and taking Sauron's servants out. Sauron had noticed Saruman's treachery much earlier and held his anger back for the day of reckoning.
In Book Two when Strider was discussing Saruman's dealing with other members of the Fellowship and when Gandalf gave Saruman one last offer Saruman was too far gone to come out of Orthanc even though for any reasonable person Saruman should have left his plans behind and helped the West to fight Sauron, but he didn't. For those reasons and others I do not think Saruman going to ask Gandalf forgiveness is canon. Saruman by that time was too far gone. Look at him in The Scouring Of The Shire, out of sheer spite he tried to stab Frodo.
Saruman was trying to win the game for himself while ALSO positioning himself to appear to both sides to have been on the winning side (whichever side won), once the game had been played out. Complicated business.
@@MountainFisher Valid points, but have you considered that Saruman in this instance of trying to ask Gandalf for forgiveness was motivated more by fear and self-preservation than rediscovering commitment his initial mission?
@@MountainFisher
On the other hand, Sauron himself once thought about asking for forgiveness, after Morgoth's forces were totally crushed and he was captured. So if someone like Sauron could have a temporary change of heart, then it's not inconceivable that Saruman was once trying to repent to Gandalf.
Wow i didn't know saruman crafted his owne ring, that would be an interesting topic for his own video wouldn't it?
Because he mimicked sauron in everything one could maybe make a quess that he propably copied sauron in other things as well. Maybe he also tried to create " a watching eye" for himself.
Yeah everyone misses that fact. He ended up crafting a lesser ring. It would have been bound to the same power and laws as the 20 great rings so it would have been de-powered after saurons fall
If Saruman had been smart, he would have copied Sauron and made a personal ring of power connected to only his own power. That way he could come back (like Sauron did) even if his physical body was destroyed (but his ring still existed). Imagine him coming back to the Shire after hundreds of years of reforming.
In the movie, it should have shown the hand of Saruman on Uruks helmet as a rainbow color handmark
At the 38min he talks about Saruman's true color.
Good video
ruclips.net/video/sh36Ys0hxoE/видео.html
I think firstly Saruman thought Gandalf would eventually surrender to him when he realized men are doomed and the only possible way to stop Sauron was to aid Saruman become the lord of the rings. We cannot forget Saruman thought his cause was just, in a ends justify the means sort of way. Thus it would serve him poorly to further antagonize Gandalf.
Secondly, Saruman saw two possible end scenarios: become the lord of the rings, or serve Sauron, in neither case would having Gandalf’s ring benefited him.
Thirdly, Saruman was a coward. If his plan would fail and the free people would be victorious. The treatment of Gandalf would be reflect on him. He spared Gandalf for not joining him, and hoped to be treated the same, as he was.
Lastly, even Saruman was not without dignity. Stealing his fellow Istari’s personal belongs out of greed was below him.
*Saruman* was a coward, though, certain he could defeat *Gandalf,* head-to-head. He chose the perfect moment to reveal his deceptive nature, which *Gandalf* was most assuredly aware of to some degree, if not entirely.
Christopher Walkein: "So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide it: his [redacted]"
Wait, Saruman made his own ring of power!? Oh please do a breakdown of that artifact.
It is said by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond about 1 of the 7 rings: "The ring was taken by torture from Thrain..."
Why Torture? Why not just take it? I think the rings of power protect themselves. Even Sauron could not just grab it from the hand of Thrain as long as he resisted. So, the feat of taking a ring of power from a bearer is not a simple thing. Isildur and even Gollum needed special circumstances to do so.
Therefor I also think, that Saruman COULD NOT just simply take it from Gandalf, even if he knew about it.
That makes sense. Maybe the power of the ring had to be redirected to a new purpose or broken in to a new master.
@@ReasonAboveEverything Or perhaps they can only be passed on willingly. The three Elven rings were made without Sauron's direct involvement and I wouldn't put it past Celebrimbor to sneak such a caveat into his private creations. Remember, none of the Elven rings changed hands save by the will of their owner, first from Gil-Galad to Elrond and Cirdan and then Cirdan to Gandalf. It would make sense for a smith as skilled and clever as Celebrimbor to Lojack his magnum opus.
@@jeremygilbert7989 that makes sense and explains the intensity of the reaction of Galadriel when Frodo offered her the one ring.
...like Dorothy's Ruby Slippers?
@@nicka3697 Torture isn't willingly. But then the Dwarven rings were forged under the direct oversight of Sauron...
There seems to be some differences of opinion as to what constitutes canon. In my definition, and I emphasize that this is only my opinion, canon is the three volumes, The Hobbit, and The Silmarillion. The Unfinished Tales and The Lost Worlds are just that: unfinished and incomplete. I see them as notebooks to which the Professor referred as he crafted the volumes I listed above. Christopher Tolkien himself warned us, in the foreword to The Silmarillion, that an internal consistency between tales was not possible and should not be sought for. It is for that reason that I have established the boundaries (for myself) of canon as the five volumes listed above. Anything outside of that is interesting speculation, but not at all binding.
Your mileage may vary.
I wouldn't say the hobbit or the silmerilion was incomplete. The unfinished tales yes, it's in the title, unfinished. But the Hobbit is the prequel story thats about finding the 1 ring. And the silmerilion is a backstory for all the factions of Middle earth in the Lord of the rings. How the orcs where created, how the rift formed between elves and dwarves, how the line of numenor came into existence and fell. Who Gandalf and the other wizards actually are, Where sauron came from, its a book of myths, its not supposed to be 100% accurate. Just like history has many different versions and isn't 100% accurate. The lost world's where ment as a bedtime story for his kids, they weren't ment to be part of the Lord of the rings saga of stories, Christopher Tolkien himself admitted that's why his father wrote them. They where just published by Christopher Tolkien after his father died because of how much he loved his father and them. The only books that are truly Cannon are Silmerilion, The Hobbit and The Lord of The Rings trilogy. The unfinished tales where exactly that, unfinished, stories Tolkien was working on but never finished them. They got published out of love and respect for him, same with lost worlds, it was a bedtime story, a story ment for only his family members that was published out of love and respect, they weren't ment to be cannon or he'd have released them when he wrote them.
@@SelphieTheNutter You do realise that you 100% agree with the original post?
@@fenhen I agree with most of the original post yes. The only things about the original post I don't agree with is not seeing the silmarilian and the hobbit as Cannon. The Hobbit is a prequel story about finding the one ring, the rest of it is just a adventure of Bilbo. The silmarilian is basicly a story of myths just like real world history, not enough evidence exists to prove them right but too much evidence exists to prove them wrong so your left wondering what the truth is. Both where intended to be cannon. But I agree with the original post that unfinished tales and lost worlds aren't cannon.
@@SelphieTheNutter fenhen was trying to point out that the OP is saying The Hobbit and The Silmarillion are both indeed cannon.
@@taggie2457 As I said before, I agree with most of what that post said. Please read my original post properly as I was agreeing that the silmarilian and hobbit should be seen as Cannon but saying unfinished tales and lost worlds shouldn't be seen as Cannon. The point I was making to people was that the silmarilian isn't ment to be accurate but it is a finished stroy. Unfinished tales was a potential story that got abandoned because Tolkien couldn't find a way to resolve the stories without sacrificing his beliefs. it shouldn't be taken as Cannon. Silmarilian souldnt be rejected as Cannon because it is "unfinished" in some peoples eyes. history is never fully recorded and lies often get passed down through the ages. The silmarilian should be seen as a book of myths that are true but not accurate. The hobbit like I said is a prequel story that's ment to set the stage for LOTR by showing us the danger the ring poses. Golem and his 500 year long life, the hobbit was written to introduce him. While also introducing why Frodo is so resilient to the rings influence like his uncle Bilbo. But it is still a adventure and people often exagurate their adventures. Any inconsistencies should be seen like Bilbo Exaggerating his adventures. The lost worlds was just a bedtime story, a fantasy Tolkien dreamed up to tell his kids. People should think of it like a what if? Story. A fantasy withing a fantasy, just like people like Tolkien in our world dream up stories like LOTR. Think of lost worlds like the people of Middle earth dreaming up The lost worlds. Thinking of them like that and all the inconsistencies between the stories make sense.
Assuming Saruman knew Gandalf had Narya, it’s lack of usefulness for attaining dominion seems the most likely reason for not wanting it. But if he wanted it, the only good reasons for not taking it are because it would require some level of risk and could be more easily done later, or because he could not. The former makes the most sense in light of Gandalf also still being left Glamdring and his staff, but the ability to conceal it certainly seems well founded. However, the one thing I think you left out which is also a possible factor is that if Gandalf kept Narya and Saruman gained the One Ring, Saruman would be able to gain immense influence over him, since the One was designed to control the weirdest of the others.
Ah yes great addition to the theories stated in the vid..
A bit of a chess game
If Saruman were to put on the One Ring, it would be very unlikely that he could gain influence over Gandalf in the way that he would the Nazgûl. The High Elves who first wore the Three Elven Rings (Celebrimbor and a couple of the Elven-smiths), when they perceived that Sauron had slipped the One Ring on his finger, immediately knew his intentions and had the willpower to remove them from their fingers. Whether they would have eventually fallen under Sauron’s control is up for debate, but they had the strength to resist him and the powers of the Rings for long enough. I would think that being a Maia, something like a minor deity or angel, Gandalf had an even greater power of will - certainly Saruman’s power to use the Ring would be less than Sauron’s and therefore hold less sway to those who could resist him. I think as soon as Saruman put on the One Ring, Gandalf would know his mind and take Narya from his finger.
Funny how the maiar serving Aule were very much like Aule himself. Saruman and sauron share a lot in common also
Yeah there's quite a strong link between creation and corruption in Tolkien's Legendarium.
Poor Aule's reputation probably got pretty bad after his second apprentice wanted to rule the world.
I still find it hard to believe that such perfect creations of Eru could possess such a flaw as deep-set insecurity. It isn't any different than other mythologies, but they are written by human beings, who aren't perfect, either. I suppose one isn't expected to look too far behind the curtain, as was once said in The Wizard of Oz.
@@szabok1999 Manwae: Aule, we need to talk about how you train your aprentences.
Aule: Yavanna, a little help here.
Yavanna: This is a YOU problem.
Aule: Are you STILL salty about the dwarves situation?
Yavanna: YES, YES I AM!
@@rikk319 We have to remember Morgoth in this, as well as Tolkien's Christian background. Much like the Devil was always there, "A liar and a murderer from the beginning" I'm pretty sure is how he was once described, Morgoth was also always there, singing his own tune discordant with Eru's Song. Also, iirc, the Valar and Maiar weren't actually created by Eru, only the Elves and Men were. As Eru sung, his voice began to echo, and those echoes became their own people, who added their voices to the mix, which then echoed again, forming a much larger chorus. Or at least, as far as I remember.
Didn't the Elven rings have the ability to conceal themselves from all but the wearers of the other elven rings and Sauron wearing the one Rng?
Yeah we mention that towards the end of the video :)
I also tend to believe this is the most likely reason it wasn’t taken. Even if Saruman knew about Gandalf being given the ring, that doesn’t mean that he could perceive that Gandalf had it with him still. The concealment of the elven rings was incredibly powerful, and I tend to believe that played the biggest role in Gandalf keeping it.
I also have a theory that what we think of as the “body” of a maiar is not nearly as limited as the “bodies” of mortals. Where the body of a mortal is limited to just their own flesh and blood, I think the “bodies” of wizards and balrogs, for example, are defined more by the way they see themselves. After all, where did Durin’s Bane acquire its whip of flame if it wasn’t a part of him? How did Glamdring and Gandalf’s elven ring come back with him as Gandalf the White? I believe it’s because, in a certain sense, those things, along with his staff, had become a part of his identity, and therefore a part of his “body.” And how could Saruman take anything from Gandalf that was a part of him?
Now this is all wild speculation of course, but I thought I would share anyway as some food for thought.
Couldn't Saruman have felt the fingers of Gandalf's hand until he felt the invisible ring? I know it isn't a romantic picture, but wasn't that possible, if he chose to take the Ring from Gandalf?
@@Enerdhil I'm pretty sure 'concealment' means much more than 'invisible' in LOTR. Saruman never had the opportunity to search for the ring because he could not perceive it, not just with his eyes.
I really don't think the concealment thing is that big of an issue. If it merely hid it from sight you could just lop off Gandalf hand or something to get the ring. But even if you believe it was completely wiped from all memory and no one could think of the secret in it's presence it doesn't explain him letting Gandalf keep the sword or any other magical item on his person.
I think Saruman thought of Narya as a symbol approving his wisdom and power and therefore his position in the council.
When a lesser Gandalf was given the ring instead, it became a reminder of the shame he felt, which gradually over the years
calcified to his seething hatred for Gandalf. Gandalf was wise enough to see it, but I think he knew he needed it to carry on his duties.
Thanks for delivering it quick
No problem buddy!
It’s interesting that Gandalf had the ring of fire, because fire symbolizes rebirth. This explains why he was reborn with a white robe.
at 2:50, that is one of the most mesmerizing images of Galadriel I've ever seen.
Nice job!!
The cost of trying to take the ring would never be recovered. As you said.
I think I have to reread the passages on how Saruman captured Gandalf.
Because when I read the LoTR as a child, I only imagined Gandalf as trapped, not as defeated like in the movie.
I always thought that there wasn't an actual physical confrontation and therefore Saruman was in no position to take away anything from Gandalf. He was content that he prevented Gandalf from leaving and that was enough for him at that moment.
Christopher Lees's birthday May 27th, good timing !
You said "Christopher Lee" in the style of Gollum 😂
Didn’t know that! Mine too
My first thought after reading the title was, "Prison wallet?" followed quickly by, "Maybe he swallowed it during the duel."
You could almost say that Saruman represents knowledge and Gandalf represents wisdom
Agree; would not serve his purpose. As a Maiar, unlikely he would not perceive it. Also possible that, while Saruman was able to imprison Gandalf, vanquishing him altogether so he could actually seize the ring might be another thing altogether and beyond his power without the one.
The problem with the supposition that Saruman's status as a Maia (btw, Maiar is plural) is that Sauron is one too, but by all accounts the elves were able to hide the Three from him.
@@GreyhawkTheAngry Good point!!
@@GreyhawkTheAngry While Sauron still wore the One Ring, Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel all hid their rings from him. Probably by not wearing them. It wasn't until he was defeated, and the One was lost, that they carefully used the Three's powers again.
@@hecate235 ....Yes.
Very simple, because the 3 elven rings are meant to conceal, preserve, heal and inspire. Not to grant the wielder greater power. Also, he couldn't see Narya, because the rings conceal themselves to all except the other 2 bearers of the Elven rings.
I love the new voice, but I kinda miss the original one for it was the reason I subscribed to this channel
Same here tbh
Yup this is the first time I've watched a video with the new voice and I'm pretty disappointed, does karl not think his voice is good enough or something? His voice is great :(
Your reasoning for your theory is impeccable. I doubt *Saruman* ever subscribed to the saying, _'He who dares, WINS!'_
5:57 They might not contribute but why leave Gandalf in possession of something like that? He might not take it to wield himself but certainly, he would have taken it to deny its power to others. even to use to bargain with Sauron.
I think the reason it stayed on Gandalfs finger was that it posed no immediate threat to him and Saruman probably didn't believe that Gandalf could have escaped. I honestly believe that he didn't take it because of an oversight on Tolkien's part.
Great GREAT video, best LOTR content on YT
From my still limited research, Saruman's ring seems to have been largely useless, at best a lesser magic ring, not a true Ring of Power.
"And Sauron would finally see how his ally had planned to betray him all along." "I'm shocked, shocked to find gambling going on in here!"
I have a different take. It's possible that Gandalf didn't take his ring with him when he went on dangerous journeys. He was always out in the wild and poking into places like Mirkwood and Dol Guldur. It wouldn't be very wise to take his ring with him, so close to servants of Sauon. I imagine he left it in Rivendell when he went abroad. Furthermore, the keeper of a ring didn't need to carry it with him to use its power. The Nazgul's rings were held by Sauron, but the Black Riders still had the power and unnaturally long lives that their rings conveyed.
That could be because of how wraithing works but not too bad of a theory
Hmmm. I don't think he took the ring off. Situations, such as a balrog in Moria, come to mind. And the rings were precious enough to not leave somewhere.
Seems like he would likely take it just to insult Gandalf if he could. If he was secretly insecure of Gandalf however, he might’ve thought that if pushed Gandalf to it he couldn’t take the ring. Gandalf might not have been able to defeat Saruman when acting solely to defend himself - but if pushed to give Saruman a tool that would aid in his evil perhaps Gandalf would’ve had no choice but to unleash full effort against him?
Also it makes total sense he would avoid anything that would risk revealing his mind to Sauron. That is reason enough.
Thanks! These are some valuable insights that I'm sure will help me in the future!
Another great one, love learning from your videos.
Having "Times change" play in the background seems oddly fitting for this video, good choice!
Saruman did not take Gandalf's ring because, when the three rings were worn, they went into the realm of the invisible, and I believe that only the bearer could give them.
I always figured Saruman wanted Gandalf to escape, other wise he could of imprisoned him far better under ground or at least in a locked cage etc. This served two goals, first off as Gandalf escaped he would spread word of Saruman's betrayal, selling his loyalty to Sauron better as the information got back to his spies.
But it would also let him follow Gandalf as his best lead to where the one ring might be. Plus give Sauron something else to worry about, a real threat he would focus on.
Aren't the elven rings only perceivable to the one who wears it?
@Gorilla Beanbag your dad's not
@@evilestmonkeey sheeeeesh you burned him
One of the best videos I’ve ever watched. Thank u so much for this ❤
2:03 I like this depiction of Saruman. Looks like he’s waiting his turn at the dentist’s office
All valid points, good Sir. Thanks for yet another great vid.
i would also propose, that perhaps Saruman also realized that taking the Ring from Gandalf would have been a risky venture since no doubt Gandalf would have fought hard to keep it from him. Like any alpha predator facing a formidable prey, the risk of injury and possible death must be weighed against the reward. Saruman no doubt considered that being severely wounded or disabled by Gandalf would put him out of the game for a lengthy period of time and time was not something he had a lot of at that point. :)
Another thing to consider is from something Gandalf said to Frodo in the chapter, 'The Shadow of the Past' to explain why he couldn't forcefully take the ring from Bilbo. That doing so wasn't just 'wrong' but also potentially damaging to the ring bearer in question ('breaking' I believe was the phrasing). If Saruman still saw Gandalf as being useful in whatever plans he had, taking the ring might have been considered counterproductive to his efforts.
I think it was a combination of this, plus the twin considerations of if Saruman finds The One, then he would be able to control Gandalf through Narya / If Sauron finds the One, he would be able to control Saruman through Narya if he used it. He wasn’t sure yet whether he wanted to destroy Gandalf or subjugate him and use him for his own purposes. I tend to think that Gandalf had for years deferred to Saruman to appease his ego and to avoid antagonizing him further. Gandalf’s patient restraint and deception was still paying off as Saruman thought of him as a potentially powerful servant if he could dominate him further and he felt he had made some progress in that direction.
Ok so he didn't think Gandalf's ring would be useful to him. It was certainly useful to Gandalf. If not for his own power then why not take it to weaken Gandalf? And wouldn't it be useful in his dealings with Sauron? Again if not to use it surely to ingratiate himself with the dark lord. Perhaps he knew that Gandalf possessed one of the elven rings but he wasn't aware that he was carrying it with him. Other than that I agree that it's likely he didn't want to anger Gandalf and he simply had no chance to take the ring off of him before he was rescued.
The video sort of covers this I think, Saruman believed there were only two outcomes of the war of the ring, either he or sauron would find the ring. If he had taken Gandalf's ring, and Sauron got the One ring back, Sauron would read Saruman's mind and discover he was meaning to betray him and destroy him. If he let Gandalf keep it, and Saruman found the One ring, he would have dominion over Gandalf instead. I think of the Elven rings as leashes attached to the One Ring, powerful artifacts but liabilities in the presence of the One
@@slamindorf5478 Well yes but he didn't have to keep it or use it himself. He could have sent the ring to Sauron as a way the ingratiate himself with the dark lord.
@@Caleb_Evans32 I mean he was already allied with sauron, agreeing to raise an army to destroy rohan is a pretty big commitment plus he was planning to betray him so giving sauron an edge is not in his interest. Also having that ring being kept by Gandalf benefits both sauron/saruman as whoever gets the One ring would dominate gandalf.
With Gandalf having both artifacts, the ring and the sword, Saramon knew where both were, more or less.
Therefore he could keep tabs on them for the time most appropriate to sequester them.
That time never arrived.
Can you please link the music for this video? It's absolutely incredible! Great video, as always!
Whenever they read out the patrions at the end it kind of reminds me on Dumbledore reading out the name of the honourables of the respective houses. Like it a lot :)
Now I like to think that Saruman, who greatly cared for what Gandalf thought, could not bear the idea that he would look at Saruman with contempt, if he'd reveal himself to be a petty thiev. After all, Saruman could not even admit to Gandalf that he acquired a taste for pipeweed 🌿🍁🍃
Thank you so much. I’ve thought the same views on these matters for a long time but never found anyone who’s ever made a vid or discussion on it. Especially sarumans lesser ring that he crafted. No one mentions it.
Even if he didn’t want to use Narya for himself, wouldn’t depriving the Free Peoples of such a valuable artifact (which served to inspire courage in others, i.e. Saruman’s enemies) serve his own goals of finding the One Ring?
I believe your assessment satisfactory and enlightening. And just plain fun to hear about!
Cheers Gigi! :D
When the great Rings are discussed in the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says that Sauron knew Gollum's Ring was not one of the Three, "for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil." Even had Saruman known Gandalf had Narya, he would also have known he could not claim it and use it for evil purposes. The only way Sauron could dominate the Three was by placing the greater part of his native strength into the One Ring, and Saruman lacked both the knowledge and the power to match such a feat.
Good point. So even if Saruman had taken Narya, he couldn't have used it.
were the elven rings subject to the one ring's will like the rest of the magic rings? I thought they weren't as they were made by the elves themselves
Even though they didn't have any of Sauron's corruption within them, they would still answer to the One Ring. I imagine it's probably because Sauron's knowledge and teachings were used in their creation even though he never directly helped create them. :)
I've heard it explained that all the great rings share a foundational...I think _formula_ was the word used, a formula that Sauron instructed Celebrimbor and his kin with. So even though the Three were free of corruption, they were still tied to the One.
@@GeekZoneMT The 3 where concealed from Saurons One Ring which is why he never found them only sense there existence and presence.
Great video as always bro. Love the narrator btw
im wondering why he doesnt narrate himself anymore...love carl's voice!
Two things go with power:
The need to be built up....
The need to hold others down...
Saruman wouldn't want Gandalf's ring....
Once HE possessed the ONE RING..
He would rule over Gandalf and Gandalf's ring would bind him to Saruman. If Saruman had researched the evidence, he knew would be able to bind all those that had rings and then force them under his rule.
I thought the elven rings were imune to Sauron's manipulation since they were never ever touched by Sauron himself
Sauron put so much of his spirit into the One Ring in order to overcome those limitations. The main limitation to the One Ring seems to be that it only affects all the rings that existed prior to it
Ok can we talk about good old Sharkey!? That was the best twist ending ever!!!! "If one drop of my blood were to smote the shire..."
Just happened upon this channel and am very impressed with the information and content produced by whom I presume to be a fellow Maltese person :P
Keep up the great work and hope you're managing with your studies!
My take was always that any ring save one of his own creation was bound to bend its will to the One ring. In his bid to become Sauron’s equal, he forged his own ring unbound to the One and without the “weakness” of the other rings. He felt his own creation was simply superior.
A well thought out approach to dealing with conflicting unpublished works (e.g. unfinished tales with Silmarillion)
I don’t know that if Sauron got the ring first that he would have even killed Sauramon. Keep in mind that they are both well aware of each other being Maiar and that a death of the psychical body was not death for their souls or beings. If Sauron had the ring, he could inflict all manor or torture and punishment on Sauramon for all of eternity. If I were the dark lord, the price for betrayal would not be so light as death. Especially for a Maiar.
Hmmm, good question! Yes, I think you did a great job of explaining why Saruman did not try to take the ring.
Great video!
he didnt completely subdue gandalf he just floated him up to the top of the tower. he might have been afraid to get that close until he was much weaker from exposure.
Actually I do agree I think everything you say is very sound and makes complete sense. And it would make very much sense for him to make his own ring because it would not be bound in any way shape or form to the one ring because the one ring was made last of the 20 rings made so sauron put his intentions into the one ring to rule the 19 this would not have included saruman's ring which would be completely free from the one ring..... So there would be no risk in him having his own ring of power made by himself and since he was a Maier of Aule he had equal skill as did Sauron... Yet he was diminished because of being in his fleshly man form.....
Do we know why Gandalf was ignorant to Saruman's corruption early on? He's never usually naive
They did not see each other too often! So while they were avara of eacothers. They did not meat unless for very important reason.
Saruman was a wise and the leader of white councill. Gandalf did put his edford more toward common people. So the change of Sarumans mind was not revealed to Gandalf, untill it was too Late. Saruman was wery carefull and did hide his true intentions very Well!
@@haukionkannel he didn't notice Bilbo turning either but again he didn't see Bilbo very often. It wasn't until his 111th birthday he became aware he possessed a ring of power. And only then did he notice Bilbo change in attitude. But that could be put down to the manipulation of the one ring, biding it's time to be found by Sauron.
I think Gandalf just didn't bring his ring with him when visited Saruman turma.
Did he have the ring at that point though? I always though Círdan
only gave it to him when he returned from the west after being sent back by Illuvatar to aid in the fight against Sauron.
@1:45, I've heard that Tolkein wrote until he hit a "roadblock", then he'd scrap the entire project and begin anew.
Maybe this is reflected in The Unfinished Tales and explains this contradiction?
I think your arguments are strong: especially the last ones noting that he didn't take Glamdring and that he would have been exposed to Sauron if he got his hands on the One ring. (Although... if that happened, all his plans would have failed anyway.)
Amazing video as usual, I always look forward to new videos!
Beautifully done
Great job on this topic. I'm going to have to agree with some people on the narration though...it is okay but I loved Karl's voice!👍
If Sauron were to get the 1 ring back, he may have been able to see the 3 elven rings, but I don't think he could control them. He never touched the 3 rings as the elven smithy, Celebrimbor, waited & made the rings whilst Sauron was not about
They where concealed from the One ring which is why Frodo could only see Nenya when Galadriel willingly allowed him to. My guess is so it would make it harder for Sauron to control them if he did not know who possessed them.
Who's the artist for about 2:20? Very stylized, I like it.
I agree that Saruman left Gandalf the ring as well his staff and sword because Saruman still wanted some kind of alliance with Gandalf. It's an explanation that is simple and fits the facts. If Gandalf hadn't escaped and had continued refusing to cooperate with Saruman then at some point Saruman would have taken them.
I honestly want to watch a movie on these background stories. I want to see when everything was heavily infused with magic
The whole section about Saruman gambling to get to the first to betray Sauron is kind of a moot point no? It's exactly that sort of thing Sauron is counting on in his "allies" because he knows the ring will completely corrupt him anyway. It's a win-win situation for Sauron, he either gets to the ring first and is too powerful or he let's it corrupt Saruman and has another powerful wraith. This is why both Gandalf and Galadriel feel they passed a test in the presence of the ring, they knew it would corrupt and dominate them.
6:11 Saruman ... wielder of the Fleshlight of Earendil ...
I think the last argument about Sauron's power to control the bearers of the rings with the one ring is by far the strongest and most plausible. Well done, but I am also hoping you are still going to do the video about the entwives
So the Elves were always worried about Sauron corrupting their rings should he ever get hold of them, could not Saruman perhaps do the same? Corrupt the powers and purpose of the Elven rings?
There is a very simple answer: the Three Rings "endure no evil" (Fellowship of the Ring p. 68). Doubtless Saruman thought that Gandalf could be manipulated into using the Ring for his benefit.
Cool video I like the new narrator's voice
fantastic video
loved it
Is this music from the Battle for Middle Earth 2? It sounds familiar
Why assume "Unfinished Tales" is cannonical? Tolkien changed his mind about his stories a lot. It's easier to reason that Saruman never knew Galdalf held the Ring of Fire. What's a better question is: why didn't Frodo see it? If he could see Galadriel's ring, why not Gandalf's? DId Bilbo see it either?
Also, when did Saruman take the Star of Elendil? I thought Elrond kept it in Rivendell, and his sons brought it to Aragorn (along with the banner of the White Tree) when the Rangers came to him. Didn't Aragorn wear the Star during the Battle of Pelennor Fields?
Because Galadriel willingly allowed Frodo to see her ring. The Eleven rings had the ability to conceal themselves from the One ring, which is why Sauron never found them like he did the others.
the Warhammer 2 music totally works with LOTR lore, nice mix!
re - 7:30
I believe GeekZone meant to say that "Gandalf's sword once belonged to the King of Gondolin," and not "... the King of Gondor."
It would seem to me that Saruman didn't take Gandalf's ring for the same reasons that Galadriel tells Frodo that his coming is as the footsteps of doom. By that, I mean:
Saruman would have known a LOT about the rings of power. Gandalf says as much. He would have known that with the Ruling Ring having been found, that there's no point in owning one of the Elven Rings, since they are subordinate to the Ruling Ring. To put it another way, as long as it was believed and as long as it appeared that the Ruling Ring would never be found, then the Elven rings would seem useful to Saruman, since they could not be dominated by a Ruling Ring that was lost. However, as soon as it became apparent that the Ruling Ring had been found, Saruman would have cared much less about possessing one of the Elven Rings. He would have felt that they would be useless, because if someone else found the Ruling Ring, then all he accomplished with the Elven Rings would have been subject to the power of the Ruling Ring. Similarly, they would be useless to him because if it was he who found the Ruling Ring, then any Elven Rings he possessed would pale in comparison to the Ruling Ring. So, again, as soon as it became known that the Ruling Ring had been found, I'm convinced that Saruman would have lost any interest in pursuing any of the Elven Rings.
I loved the BFME2 background music
This is a pretty good analysis
This is an awesome question.. He had to know Gandalf had it. He knew Elrond and Galadriel had the others.
What is the music used for the video?
I have a question, when Gandalf had the one ring and threw it into the fire at Bag End, why wasn't he corrupted?
Sauron did collaborate with and tutor the elves, but he didn't actually participate in the forging of those 3 rings - that was solely the elves. So he didn't actually have any control over those rings like he did the human and dwarven rings.
I think an argument could be made that the root of Sarumons envy of Gandalf could be Gandalfs patron being the Queen of the Valar
Saruman may have wanted to take Narya, but the Three "endure no evil" so it may have rejected him.
Even if he couldn't wield it, just having the ring would likely greatly boost his ring-research.
Also threatening to take the ring from Gandalf could've been seen as more leverage in his interrogation.
Lastly, in when theyre searching Orthanc and discover the Elendilmir jewel and other treasures stashed away, Gandalf calls Saruman a jackdaw (little bird that impulsively collects shiny objects), so the ring wouldve been irresistible to him. 😂
Hmm. I just had an idea, a far fetched one, but just hear me out.
We know that the Ring of Water and the Ring of Air (sorry I can't recall the names) preserved Rivendell and Lothlorien in time... and we know that the Shire was somewhat unnoticed or untouched by the outside world. Almost, unchanging...
WHAT IF Gandalf's visits throughout the years helped to preserve the SHIRE? Not like the elven lands because he wasn't constantly there, BUT what if the Ring of Fire had some residual effect on the land and perhaps that was a way for Gandalf to indirectly protect the Shire. Hence his constant returns and visitations.
This obviously would not be a canonical view as Tolkien did not address it and gave a reason for Gandalf's visits, but perhaps the Ring of Fire still had an affect without him knowing? Just a thought. God bless.
Certainly fits with Narya's theme of encouragement - and the character of hobbits. Perhaps not explicitly canon, but fits into the world Tolkien crafted.
I'm pretty sure only Cirdan, Elrond and Galadriel knew about the ring AT THAT TIME, Saruman figured it out later.
Wow. Totally never thought about this. I think your theory is spot on though.