Actually, the magnets aren't great for renters cause it tears half the wall with it when you pull them off when you have to move. Sadly speaking from experience here :p
I was actually interested in it but they have much less WoW artwork than i expected if they sponsor you. Gul'dan and M'uru look really good but apart from nothing for me.
This is anopther great vid, but the intro times before you actually get to "what this video is about" at 7:30min is starting to push patience, it' could have been a 20min vid ;)
Activision = The Jailer. Blizzard = The Lich King (both as Arthas and Bolvar). WotLK was released in 2008, a few months after Activision Blizzard was established. Blizzard thought they were in control, but that never was the case. While they were able to withstand the Jailer‘s influence for a while, they ultimately failed, leading to their fall and loss of influence.
@@lostheboss7938 That‘s debatable. Personally I liked it better back in the day, but I can see that others like it more the way it is now. My comment was not about how WoW changed over the years though, but about the parallels I see between the game‘s lore and the corporate stuff going on at Activision Blizzard. I‘m not saying this was planned all along, it‘s just an interpretation, nothing more.
With BFA i had the same tought, corruption inside the company, people leaving. etc. At some point i tought the designers where sending messages in these "forms" wich.. at the same time is not crazy, the company has a track record of using real world things to influence the game. idk
This even explains why Bolvar never just ordered all the mindless Scourge to walk into an open volcano or something. He didn't have full control over them because he was constantly struggling against The Jailor.
Yeah, it wasn't that the jailor was fighting to keep Bolvar from doing something. It was Bolvar barely being able to hold back the unstoppable will of the Jailor.
@@muffinman2546 I think this is most likely the case especially now since the Lich King as we know him is gone and Bolvar has taken on the role as Highlord which is the same as Darion who is not only the head of the Four Horseman but also seems to be the second in command under the Deathlord within the ranks of the Knights of the Ebon Blade. This means that Bolvar is at least as equivalent as Darion and is and now serves the Deathlord.
New information is not retconning. I wish people would fucking understand this. Retconning is when you take established facts and fuck with them. Just giving further information to expand on an existing story is NOT a retcon.
@@icikle Not directly, no, new information are not retconn. But, pulling a baddie from an ass and putting him as uber evil that changed EVERYTHING is, in essence, a shit on the lore-so-far and thus it FEELs and should be treated as a retcon.
why Sylvannas would side with the Jailor? souldn't she be mad at him the same way she was towards Arthas? if you think about it, the Jailor, not Arthas, made Sylvannas who she is.
Probably using him for her own gain, we know that she saw Arthas as a child when she suicided at Icecrown and realized he was nothing in the scheme of things. Right now she's getting power from The Jailer and it wouldn''t surprise me if she's planning on using it against him.
@Marcos Paul Souza do Carno I personally believe at her death, she saw what Jailor has done, and his grand scheme to dominate the world soul. In an attempt to prevent that, she made allegiance. I'm of the opinion that what we're seeing from Sylvanas is what people saw from Illidan in TBC.
@@raminsadrzade7152 i'm of that opinion as well! i'm also really hoping that is the case, because i fell like they ruined Sylvannas turning her into "this".
I think that Alexstraszas flames helped bolvar to stay in control, after all Alexstrasza is the aspect of live and so the opposite of the Jailor himself.
You forgot to mention the dialogue that Jaina has when you find her locket on Arthas during the Shadowmourne quest. The fact that he kept it the whole time hinted that his humanity was still lingering somewhere within the Lich King.
@@SycosenMerihem Arthas broke his relationship off with her, she did not abandon him. She chose not to follow down the obvious dark path he was going down.
The funniest part is that at the end of the Shadowlands, we will find out that Sylvanas did all of this so she can finish the Jailer, because he was the one controlling Arthas, thus being the responsible for converting Sylvanas into undead, which is what she always hated the most. Blizzard now days looks like the old Brazilian and Mexican novels, always with the same stories all over and over. Illidan was a villain, become the one that saved everything... Now will be Sylvanas saving everything, bla bla bla.
And 5 years later Bliz will say The jailor was controlled by Borat 2, so she will then destroy the remaining alliance cities to get him, then in 2030 Bliz would be like Borat 2 was controlled by his son Bilo the 3rd.....WTF it has to be a Trolling ... pls tell me.
And then after that, Sylvannas will go after Blizzard, because they wrote her into turning undead and etc. Jumping out of the game and organizes a 25 player raid on the Final Raid, Blizzard HQ. and we all know that Nothing can stop a 25-player Raid team!
*your missing a LOT of facts...FROSTMOURNE is the key.* (even though that reduces your video to redundancy) Arthas was corrupted by the sword long before he donned the crown and he had to contend with BOTH artifacts - remember that he went full evil because of Frostmourne, NOT the helm - the helm just obliterated his personality (however corrupted it was by the blade). Bolvar never had to contend with the corruption of Frostmourne (the MOST powerful artifact representing the Maw's power outside Shadowlands). He was JUST tortured for several days? It was NOT because of his outstanding personality or goody-2-shoes character or any virgin "purity" of soul nonsense (what the heck does purity even mean when referencing a character and why would it have any connection with power unless your going down the "power of love" route). Had Bolvar had his soul taken by Frostmourne, ya he woulda corrupted lickity split as well to the helm. Arthas was contending for over 5 years. Talk about sheer will and power. Why do you think we only ever hear Arthas speak as himself for the 1st time in ICC? its not cause the helm is gone, its cause the blade is 1st shattered, AND THEN the helm is also gone. Arthas was contending with a LOT of shit and im amazed his powerful personality survived it even after BTOH effects of the maw were gone - *i would def NOT call Arthas a "WEAK" man, character or personality.* Its not fanboying either - i literally dont know of another soul (Thrall, Uther, Illidan) that would have managed to come out of being corrupted by both Frostmourne AND the Helm for 1/2 a dozen years at least and STILL try to hold ack the scourge from over-running Azeroth. That ambiguity is what makes the Lich King interesting - if he was just a "weak and evil man" like you reduce it to, its SO boring and arbitrary to the point of being a cartoon villain...Blizz has intentionally left things like that vague for years for reasons. The man didnt bend to anyone (not Uther or his father or Jaina) and certainly was selfless enough to toss away his own emotions and even love for Jaina to do what he was convinced needed to be done - i mean the poor citizens of Stratholme were literally turning into undead monstrosities and he was BARELY able to stay ahead of it and even that was with extreme measures - if he had hesitated even an hour or 2 longer, the amount of undead his men would have to face would have been significant - and the citizens trapped in those forms...these are not the actions or measures of a "weak" man unless you by weak u mean selfish (why and in what context? what did he ever gain other than heartache by continuing to make hard choices which had no right answers) or not goody-2-shoes because the context of the situation didnt allow for it? What was he supposed to do? Its not like Uther or Jaina had any solutions and the ppl of the city were going to be trapped in undead husks serving the Legion until they rotted away...
Very well said. He was in fact incredibly strong-willed. Beneath Icecrown, deep in the ruins of Azjol-Nerub, Arthas impressed Anub'arak by surviving alone against traps, cave-ins, and faceless ones. To which Anub'arak exclaimed, "I see now why the Lich King chose you to be his champion." Hint: it was not because he was weak.
Illidan probably could have managed it. 6 years of corruption is nothing on 10000 years solitary and retaining sanity/possibly having a fragment of sargaras as your demonsoul.
"even though that reduces your video to redundancy"? I think you're getting a little too excited here. I get you're a big Arthas fan, but this video's about more than whether or not he was a weak character.
Exactly. Even during wotlk we have dread lords conspiring against the frozen throne and seeking revenge for Arthas. What a bunch of crappy retcons. They just can't end the story.
@@danielwalker6230 Or maybe it's almost like Kil'jaeden rounded them up and said. "How cute, you unleashed the Lich King on Azeroth."Then they all had a hearty laugh, when Kil'jaeden suddenly stops laughing and just says "Now go and fix it." Except it's not like either of those scenarios, yours or mine. Because the Lich King kept pulling the rug from under the dreadies' feet too.
@@moscanaveia If so then why did Kiljaeden order Illidan to destroy the frozen throne not dreadlords ? Obviously it's because the Nathrezim were not trustworthy both for the jailor and the legion, eventhough they were agents of Denathrius. Remember Denathrius betraying the jailor once ...
@@danielwalker6230 I didn't read up on the story, so please don't spoil me with this shit. But this retcon pisses on the dreadlords. Everything they did to the Scourge and the Scourge did to them, from Arhas telling Illidan how to kill Tichondrius to the dreadlords trying to assassinate Arthas and wresting control of the Scourge from the Lich King, makes no sense under this new light that both served the same master. If they were really trying to betray the Jailer, why weren't they thrown overboard long before Shadowlands?
um... why every1 keep forgetting Arthas' words from vision in Highmountain?: Memory of Arthas whispers: You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own... Memory of Arthas whispers: Yet you do as He commands. Memory of Arthas whispers: You exist by His whim alone. Memory of Arthas whispers: You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument...
I’ll admit the fall of illidan and Arthas to corruption arcs make them hint empathetic villains in the thanos way but we can still acknowledge their evil thinking still left them good guys in their heads but clearly not in reality was interesting twice and deathwing and rag just loosing full out to the dark powers they called was satisfying to put down. but it ruins the world immersion if there’s just always a bigger evil pulling the strings behind every evil that comes out blizzards ass is good for expansions directions but seems like a 7th grader making villains for a super hero comic book.
I think calling Arthas a good person, or that even Blizzard is trying to claim that he was one, is not the case, and I also don't think thats the case Bell is trying to make either. All they were saying is that he did in fact have some incredibly small part of him trying to be good, we would call this a doubt. Good people have doubts ALL the time, the exact same thing can be said about bad people. Labelling any character "They are good/bad therefore everything they do and think is good/bad." is just bad writing across the board, super simplistic. His trying to be a good person was very much drowned by his very many character flaws. Arthas was Bad. Illidan was ALSO bad and they stick with that story, they never LEAVE that story, the repartee between Kayn and Altruis is very much the proof of this, not to mention Illidan complete and total willingness to absolutely annihilate a Prime Naaru without even blinking. Its not that we didn't have "enough information", rather its that we cannot tunnel vision individuals as THEY ARE BAD THEREFORE ALL THOUGHTS/GOALS/AMBITIONS ARE BAD. Its truly excellent writing, willing to step out of the black and white and show just how gray everything truly is.
She wasn't "dominated" in the way that the helm did. She was manipulated, yes, but actually of her own "free will". Essentially when she went to hell she realized "oh this shit sucks" and the jailer (through the Val'kyr) offered her a way out. She took it.
In my eyes shes was killed and dominated by Arthas. Thats why during the Arthas book she eventually breaks hold. That would mean the Jailer lost power half way during Arthas' reign.
@@djodjekg81 I don't. I don't think she's worthy of redemption at this point from an in lore character perspective and from a player I just don't enjoy the character any more. If they did they redemption thing I expect a lot of people would collectively groan.
I was thinking about why a being so powerful like the Jailer needed to have someone else also inside the helm. I just think that however powerful the leaders of the cosmic entities are, they themselves cannot easily enter the material realm. Like how the void lords just didn't come to corrupt Azeroth but sent the Old Gods. Or how the light needs someone to have faith in order to manifest itself. The soul in the helm was the Jailer's link link to this world, but now that the veil is broken he could more easily enter or something. Anyway love your videos, keep making them!
I think the Jailer's influence was all that he could put inside the helm. Which is why they infused Ner'Zhul into it, in order to give it more power. That coupled with Frostmourne gave the Jailer an opportunity to take over Azeroth. His ability to send great deals of power into the material realm is limited just as it is with the other entities. This is why having the Dreadlords being spies and agents of the Jailer fits so well. He has been stealing power and turning forces against themselves for ages waiting for his chance to enact his plan. As to the veil, that was definitely the end goal and the reasoning for constructing Ice Crown Citadel. Plan A was to remove anyone of power on Azeroth before shattering the veil, as that is a two way street. Plan B(ackup) gives us an opportunity to stop it by being able to go into the Shadowlands and the Maw itself.
Damn so Arthas was resisting the Jailer so much the Jailer literally ripped out his heart to destroy his humanity and Arthas STILL resisted to save Azeroth 😪
I think that’s important when people discuss how responsible Arthas was for his actions. Sure, by the time he’d taken frostmourne and put on the helmet he was almost completely gone, but the whole reason they targeted him is that he was prone to corruption.
@@ValensBellator I would say that bolvar taking up the helm was different because he knew to resist it where as arthas did not believe the power that was corrupting him was corrupting him.
Yeah as someone knowing very little about him i thought he was just some overhyped weakling given how he has his own power and the lich kings power and loses to Sylvannas. But knowing that he was basically at his wits end with his strength being challenged by the jailer at the same time really puts into perspective that he just didnt have any strength left.
@@rasmachris94 Added to that, he was using the power of the Lich King to fight her, as the transition from red to blue (his own red fires of Alexstraza’s lifegiving flame shifting to the icy blue of death). She was using the power the Lich King’s power stems from. And the one thing you can’t defend against is yourself. He was leaning on that icy well of magic to stop her; she kicked the support out from under him and he fell hard - probably not realizing how much of him was now relying on that strength as it wore his own will down.
I imagine the Jailer also helped in that fight, pressing against Bolvar, straining his concentration, if not inhibiting his strength. Imagine fighting a battle on two fronts. One of the body, against the Banshee Queen, AND one of the mind against the jailer. The fact he did as well as he did AT ALL is a testament to Bolvar's power, and will.
I feel like part of why Bolvar may have been able to resist the Helm so much would be due to him being completely suffused with the flames of the lifebinder - essentially pure life energy, the antithesis of death/undeath. Of course, his extreme strength of will and devotion to keeping Azeroth and her inhabitants safe also plays a huge roll in his ability to resist the Helm and contain the Scourge.
Honestly i just find that confusing. The 'lifebringer' energy came from a titan's blessing, in other words, order not life though. I guess they are neighbors...sort of?
@@randomnobody660 I agree. This part of the lore doesn't make sense. If anyone has an explanation I would like to know how this works. Eonar is a titan (so she should be associated with order, right?) But she's also a titan of life? She facilitates and creates it I thought? So how is she on the pantheon of order. Since there's a death pantheon, beings of death are in it. Why is eonar in league with order people? Shouldn't there be a life pantheon? Idk...
@@HOBOsnake Like what @dianna k said, there is life within order. I would also think it applies to the Shadowlands too, specifically, Ardenweald. Its a part of the Shadowlands, the place people go when they die and the Winter Queen is a Pantheon of death but unlike the rest of the factions of Shadowlands, Ardenweald nurtures the souls of deceased gods for them to be reborn again, aka giving them life. It makes me wonder if Life and death are inherent absolutes amongst the cosmology chart and no matter what "faction" the chart puts someone in to, even death, it will always be accompanied by life.
@@randomnobody660 Titans are from order sure, but sargeras could wield fel (or became resistant or some shit), so you can influence other aspects of magic other than your original one. Titans are also born from planets, where the life on the planet might have an effect on the titan, think counter old gods.
This kind of complex, non-canon, retroactive, interpretive storytelling happens in any shared fiction. Marvel, DC, Forgotten Realms, etc.... Pretty much anywhere you have a lore that has been developed over 10+ years by dozens of different authors coupled with minimal effort spent on continuity review; this happens. I can hardly think of any (if any) large IP, that has multiple creators, over a long time period, that does not suffer this. For me at least, I have just learned to accept it as an phenomena of fictional settings. I will not be surprised at all, when WoW writers start talking about parallel dimensions or alternate realities (much like Marvel and DC have) in an attempt to pull all of these much frayed strings together into one continuity of storytelling.
Right? I don't get why people hate any sort of change to the world. It needs to evolve. We can't just hang out with Thrall and Arthas for fifteen years. Stories have been retconned and fanfic'd for thousands of years. That is exactly part of their appeal.
@@williamreely3455 It's not that things change, it's HOW they changed. Most people tend to think the changes have not been good. I tend to agree. Most of the really big story beats and interesting character arches have been either sold short like Sageras or Ashara getting punked in one patch, or they've been completely derailed in favor of lesser stories like Ms Proudmoore's descent into hate filled madness to the point where she was willing to let the world fall to the Legion before allying with the Horde, and then she just...got over it off screen before the next expac.
@@williamreely3455 There is a difference between an evolving world and rewriting events. Thats like going into our real wrld history and saying that julius caesar crossed the Rubicon, because his Octavian manipulated him into doing so to later succeed him on the Roman Throne. That's the level of bollox we are working with here.
We know now that the Jailer was in the helm, but back during WotLK that wasn't a thing. It was Arthas and Ner'zhul. The original references to Arthas being controlled by something in the helm is probably pointing to Ner'zhul
"the lich king" is the avatar of the jailer. Just like sargeras had his avatar to invade planets. The jailer used actual people chained in his armor to control them. Meaning we fought the jailer before, and actually should have lost.. so this should be interesting to see how we stop him this time.
@@cn8299 Out of nowhere? Bruh, he was the most powerful shaman at the time, the most powerful necromancer, he wielded the scepter of Sargeras, and Kil'jaeden super buffed the fuck out of him to become the Lich King.
This laconic name is so, so much stronger that A NEW REVELATION ABOUT THE LICH KING - SHADOWLANDS WILL SHUDDER. Thank you for growing past that old self, Bellular.
He’s said in videos before they don’t like doing clickbaity thumbnails and titles but are forced to by the algorithm. If they don’t do it, their videos get buried and lose views, so they lose money.
@@ArcadeStunfisk Well, and now, as he stated repeatedly, he does not need or want to do that anymore - that's what I am thanking him for, though, perhaps, I should thank his patrons instead.
I'm really dissatisfied with the re-contextualization of this whole arch. Removing any measure of agency that Arthas or Ner'Zhul had is ruinous for them as the characters they portrayed at the time of WOTLK, and leaves them as just another in a long line of "Mortal Villain Coerced by Ruinous Powers Into Doing Vile Stuff" the likes of which we see over and over and over and over and over and over again. I'm at a loss to think of any antagonist who acted of their own volition at this point that mattered other than in service to one of the 6 cosmic axis' behalf. I hope y'all have fun with it the game as it goes on, but I think I'm out until further notice.
FeralVentas i find it insulting to my intelligence, that they are doing this. This could have been done with more grace and dignity without destroying past lore. Blizzard has ben lacking Originality for a decade, and waiting for a dead cat o purr over a decade has been a waste of time. Retcons, recontextualizations, half ass explanations, underpowering old characters, overpowering lame characters, releasing Chronicles, then saying that was Arthas's point of view? So from being a fallen paladin who went too far to serve his nation he is now a 'weak pathetic loser who did not know how to pick his nose and stabbed his eye with his finger? Disgraceful, in 5 years they will do the same with Jailor. how is it a chronicle then, are all chronicles point of views? Multiple realities where Hitler and Garrosh are pacifist bee herders who made Azeroth Great Again? WHY THE FUCK IS SYLVANAS ASSISTING THE JAILOR AND HATING ARTHAS IF THE JAILOR WAS IN CONTROL AND KILLED HER IN FIRSTPLACE?? Fkn mental Gymnastics. Often the simplest explanation is the most likely one. They have lost it, the touch, the talent, the story, the creativity.
I only started playing wow recently, all the lore seems to be getting tied up, even if it is a bit clumsy would you have been happier if everything in this expansion was just completely unrelated to past lore
@@tomclarke7570 ,firstly, Welcome and best of wishes to your new adventures Tom; I think starting into the game Now means that while it'll take a long while to understand the whole picture, you won't be experiencing the game with the kind of baggage I have that's partly causing my discontent as a player; make no mistake, a lot of my hangups with all this are very personal, more than a critique of the game's designers at large. It's an "I don't like this," not a "This is bad" complaint. If this Expansion had been entirely unrelated, or at least significantly divergent from previous expansions, I would've been much more inclined to at least join the rush of returning players that new expansions historically bring in; I'd want to give it a shot and see what the new direction really would be. Blizzard has done so with great success in the past with the Mists of Pandaria expansion; yes, the end-game had some ties to old-god corruption and so did Pandaria itself as part of its history, but the concepts, the characters, the environment and so forth were all novel in how they were presented, while still maintaining the atmospheric sincerity and experience that made me think "This is a real World of Warcraft Experience, it's a new and interesting and inspiring part of the world I've come to love." My biggest gripes aren't so much with internal consistency; there's been a lot of work to connect things together and I respect the effort that went into it, but the resounding pinch-point for me is that the developments as they are currently shown have done so in a fashion that besmirches the fond memories I have of earlier parts of a story in which I felt like an active participant, even if in the role of a nameless and largely inconsequential one. The Wrath of the Lich King experience had a Weight to it that Really set in deep, and the follow-up of having Azeroth changed from the Vanilla to the Cataclysm map made that whole adventure even more poignant. A major youtube project finished up about a week ago; Unas Annus. That comes to mind in this case because its over-arching theme was to embrace the importance and value that things have because they are going to end. The WOTLK era ended, and ended Well. Returning to it has its merits in looking to the past, but even if the game's writers or developers hadn't opted for character decisions that I really didn't care much for, the attempt to essentially retread the events in Northrend to recreate the same results doesn't sit well with me as a player. If it helps new players or those that came in post-cataclysm to make new memories and enjoy exploring Azeroth's relationship with Death and Finality, then that's great and I hope for nothing less for them. It's just missed the mark with me. I think we could've done with a new time-skip every two or three expansions, and better still some major changes in the core map and world to really set it into a state of change, and to provide (or Require) a novel take to what the game is about going forward. Maybe I'll get lucky, and the next Expac will be enough of a retread of those ideas in Cataclysm's wheelhouse that Azeroth and WoW at large will get the narrative-hard-restart I'd ask of it before I felt it might be worthwhile to return. Sorry for the wall of text, this game was a major part of my life for over a decade, and Warcraft games in general for over two. However long you stick with it, I hope you have a wonderful time.
I think this is plan C, you completely missed the whole BFA point. Plan A: Lich King = Fail Plan B: Get Sylvannas as the Warchief (lying to Vuljin about some spirits) and get her to start the 3rd War so that Horde and Alliance kill each other, that didnt go as plan, so then she tried something with Queen azshara, that didnt work. = FAIL Plan C: Break the helm and connect to two realms, plan still to unfold.
I think Plan B was a partial success because it put N'Zoth on the radar for the Horde and Alliance to gun down, buying the Jailer more time to claim the world soul (since N'Zoth was his primary competition at that point).
I'm kind of hoping we run into Ner'zul's soul in the maw. Especially since his soul was tied into the Helm of Domination, and since it's destruction his soul probably would've been sent back to The Maw in Shadowlands. Plus, it would be cool to see him and Arthas fighting AGAINST the Jailor in The Maw as sort of a rebel thing. One could only speculate though.
Chances are Ner'zhul was judged by the Arbiter and if he was considered as having done wrong he was given the opportunity to go to Revendreth to atone and join the Venthyr. However it is still possible that Ner'zhul may have gone elsewhere. Its almost impossible to get sent to the Maw as the Arbiter operates similar to the Judeo-Christian God in that you have an opportunity to repent and still atone even if its by being sent to the purgatory like realm that is Revendreth. This is the main reason that the Jailer is so mad. The Arbiter is not sending people to the Maw and so somehow things are now broken and all souls are being sent to the Maw. I could see both Arthas in particular learning what had happened and wanting retribution against the Jailer especially becuase he is in the Maw. I also would not be surprised if Arthas and Uther become reunited and its an extremely emotional reunion where they both make up for their misdeeds.
In the stupid, but canon, arthas novel, it's is stated that arthas destroyed ner'zhul's presence in his mind. That might mean that he unwittingly sent nerzhul to the maw
"Who is the Lich King?" ain't the age old question. It was Ner'Zhul, then Arthas and then Bolvar (which was already an asspull of its own according to Metzen). This villain behind villain behind the TRUE villain sounds like a sonic fanfic plot. Next expansion we'll learn that Bob the Janitor was the TRUE villain behind Jailor. He will be released by *insert old character here* who will get Garrosh/Sylvanas treatment this time around.
@M. Woller There is no need to create some "new more awesum" villain that fits into Archimonde's scheme in 3rd war like a square peg in a round hole. Scourge was created by nathrezim, who experimented with necromancy since war of the ancients, used through cult of the damned. That's it. Hell, just use your little brain to see that creating deathlands is even more blatant and retarded excuse to recycle characters and content then WoD was. Time travel/alternate universe spells the death of writing in a franchise, but this is even more pitiful.
Arthas was able to resist as well. Not completely, but it was said that it was his last bit of humanity that kept him from sending the Scourge across the entire planet to scour everything.
N'Zoth whispers: Six seats at the high table. Six mouths that hunger. One will consume all others. The Arbiter Kyrestia the Firstborne The Winter Queen Sire Denathrius The Primus The Jailer
@@paradoxinfinity-y2b XD but they are actually trying to plan stuff out now, like the Old Gods stuff was really introduced with Mists of Pandaria and left to stew until Sargeras revealed he was trying to take out the Void
According to this lore, Sylvanas must be an enemy of the Jailer, because her entire being has been devoted to revenge against the one responsible for making her this way, whether it was Arthas or now a different power. If Blizzard does not make it so that Sylvanas' plan has been to destroy the Jailer all along, then the new Blizzard team has yet again completely betrayed the original lore.
Shhht! You are making sense again. Dont tempt Blizzard to give a a stupid, self contradicting and intelligence insulting explanation to that. like... Oh Sylvanas was too arrogant to know that her underwear was magically manipulating her.
The way i see sylvanas, and judgeing by the original vanilla wow undead cinematic when creating a new undead character, sylvanas loyalties were never true to anyone, not even to the horde. So for me, it doesn't surprise me that her character and her motives have always been quite shady and sketchy. It is no surprise she is the way she is. I mean, initially she was saying she was with the horde to kill arthas, but i agree that she might actually want to kill the jailor, or at least use him to further her future goals, whatever they might be.
Makes one reconsider the vision in the yogg-saron vision when he says "I will break you as I broke him" Perhaps he wasn't talking about Dranosh but instead it was the jailor talking about Arthas..
It could also be interpreted as "arrogant Arthas" believing he has broken the presence in the helm. He believes he is in control because he has dominated the voice in the helm of domination! Obviously, both of these ideas are ridiculous; I don't think Blizzard had a concept of The Jailor during WotLK. But it's still fun to look at how new information can change how we see the past.
there's no reconsideration needed. It was Arthas talking to Bolvar about Saurfang the Younger-- until a fan reminds blizz about that exchange and they retcon that, too.
This Death force being responsible for everything, even the Legion just doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t know, I’ll go back to 2016 in Legion were Chronicle meant something and there weren’t this million plots going on
I don't know, I think it adds to the world building that all these cosmic forces are competing with one another. Usually its the light or shadow instigating things, nice for it to be death instead for a change.
@Peri OListo The old gods are themselves servants of a cosmic power, so strictly speaking an old god and the lich king would be equals in term of cosmic power, with the jailer and the voidlords (the old gods' creators) being the next tier up.
Death isnt responsible for the legion. Theres 6 phenomenal cosmic powers life+death, light+shadow, chaos+order. Legion is from chaos, jailer and scourge is from death.
Alchemist43 Who exactly drove Sargeras crazy by manipulating him as they have manipulated all the cosmic forces? The dreadlords, beings of death. They prompted Sargeras to create the Legion, so yeah, they are responsible because they have been mAnIpuLatIng everything all along.
You see Arthas was just a pawn under the control of the bigger bad: the Jailer. You see the Jailer was just a pawn under the control of the bigger bad: Madara. You see Madara was just a pawn under the control of the biggest bad: Big Boss. As Solidus Snake once said: pawns can never become players! BUT YOU SEE THEY WERE ALL PAWNS OF THE REAL BIG BAD: EEYORE! 9999 IQ MASTERPLAN
Small detail. It was Frostmorne that enslaved Arthas and stole his soul, not the helmet. Also, if it was actually the jailer the whole time then why even bother with Arthas? Seems like any schmuck could have filled the position.
The sword drove him mad and corrupted him, but it was still the helmet that allowed Ner'zul to assume control of him in entirety. (almost) and "Become One".
Frostmourne shattered his soul and weakened his resolve. Arthas was a good target because of his position in the Alliance and the weaknesses in his personality. He was consumed by the desire to eliminate Mal'Ganis and the legion at any cost, which led him into acquiring Frostmourne and then the Helm. The grand plan was to conquer Azeroth with the scourge then shatter the veil and consume it. Obviously the Lich King was able to be defeated, so the forces of Azeroth needed to be weakened by fighting the legion, and then destabilized by converting someone of power.
Simply getting to Frostmourn was no easy task, a frozen wasteland, with monsters, even a guardian. Hell, even getting to Northrend was hard. Arthas lost a few ships getting there. You'd probably also want someone skilled in combat, and have a understanding of magic. Muridin (?) helped Arthas get to Frostmourn, but he wasn't blinded by anger, and sensed the evil power of the sword, advice and tried to stop Arthas from picking up the blade. Meaning, someone sane, wouldn't touch Frostmourn. I'm sure there were others that could have wielded it, but Arthas checked to many boxes. The wealth to get to Northrend, the army to reach the sword, etc.
Saronite doesn't adversely affect the undead, it just happened to be a powerful material located nearby that also had the added bonus of driving living things insane.
@@viysnjor4811 Undead have a resistance to it. They aren't immune to the whispers of Yogg. As such ICC is a giant antenna for Yogg to influence the scourge with the same speed as trying to download an HD movie through dial up. Takes a crap ton of time, but that is something Yogg has in spades.
@@OmegaGamer04 Yeah but we're talking about Yog playing at a disadvantage against a creature that is already heavily resistant to it, that is ALSO controlled by one of the most powerful artifacts ever made in the warcraft universe (Helm of Domination), I don't think Yogg had a whole lot of sway at that point. If he did, why would he need to use Loken and Ulduar instead of the Lich King himself?
@@viysnjor4811 I think you guys give too much credit to how powerful an Old God is. Old Gods when they know they are outmatched in any category they play around it and influence it. He influenced us , the players/adventurers , when we fought him off. Yogg-Saron clearly tried to dominate Arthas but found someone much more powerful than him already in controll of him. All Old Gods play it this way. Old Gods when they are outmatched play around the one they cant defeat. Y'shaarj is the same , C'thun is the same , Xalatath is the same , Yogg-Saron is the same , N'zoth is the same. Xalatath is too weakened , it could barely influence one player and she couldnt even break free of the weakest of the Old Gods.
It all does make a lot of sense now, but really, I still think it was badly executed by Blizzard during Legion/BFA. We should've heard a little bit about the Jailer during these expansions so that it wouldn't seem that Blizzard pulled the Jailer out of their asses in Shadowlands, which they likely did. Personally, it's my n°1 issue with WoW's Lore. Every expansion brings its load of notions Blizzard just came up with and which they're trying to make us believe were teased and right under our noses for the past 10+ years, by way of retcons.
Right. Cause no f**king way that was intended all the way long. C'mon now Blizz. You analyzed well the existing lore and came up with a (some could say) very smart retcon to develop things further. In the process though you ruined one of the best and most beloved piece of lore/arc of WoW. The "tragedy" we could call it of Arthas and the LK. Congratz. I guess you ran out of brilliant writers able to come up with NEW, and not recycled ideas.
That's a powerful thought tbh. Dude spent his life doing all he could for Lordaron. Only to be consumed by the blade and the corruption. Then to awaken from the nightmare knowing you set it loose. That's heavy.
I love the story, it feels so “Greek” like one of those great tragic ironies where they become what they sought from the start to avoid being. Also, the cautionary tale of those who start making “for the greater good” sacrifices on behalf of others. Good intentions, without constraint, can have devastating consequences.
The lore is more and more becoming like the gameplay: slapping one aspect on top of another and on top of another. A complex interplay of events must organically make sense, just like in Warcraft 3, not give a sense of convolutedness, just like the gameplay systems. Here they are retconning minor and major details, left and right. It's sad to see my childhood love, Warcraft, fall, thanks to the wrong hands it was left in. :(
Fall? I'm actually enjoying the complexity of this :D The Lich King has always been my favourite character. That there is more to it than Ner'zhul being trapped in a helmet, that sounds intriguing!
I really don't see a lot of this as "retconning" so much as an expansion of the lore we knew. The old lore had a lot of mysteries, and a lot of things we unexplained. Now we're seeing the bigger picture. Blizzard obviously has to build off of what they have, because they need to add more content to keep the game going. Change isn't always bad. :)
"You exist on his whim alone. You imagine yourself to be free. But you will always be his instrument." Also Sylvanas: "I will set us all free!" I sense a plot twist. If anyone has the guile to overwhelm the Jailer, it's her. She is a strategist after all.
Damn never knew she would play such a big part in the lore, I remember when I had killed her in campaign easily, she was just a banshee that ain't do nothing low damage and a handful of support spells after being killed, now she is...this dayum!!
I would not be surprised if Sylvanas by her own actions, did all this in the end to save herself and Azeroth. Sylvanas knowing this was the only way to release us from the Jailers grasp. This would certainly give the nuance to what she did. Would make her situation very different then a Garrosh 2.0.
@BellularGaming Amazing video sir, a sound piece of production on all accords. However, have you thought about the fact that Arthas reaches out for /grasps for the Helm of Domination when he is slain in ICC, Wrath of the Lich King? Before he lies cold, just after Frostmourne is shattered, he is down on his knees and is reaching out towards the helm. This speaks of another narrative, in which he wanted to stay in power with the helm on top of his head.
The biggest question I had at the end is, if Arthas was an agent of the Maw and the Jailor, why did he make Icecrown Citadel out of Saronite, the blood of Yogg Saron? Doesn’t fit
Viy Snjór eh, I don’t really buy into that. Seems like a very specific choice, lore-wise, to use Saronite. Especially if the jailers goal is to get rid of the void.
Are we ever told he knew that Saronite was infused with the blood of Yogg-Saron? Could he not just have looked at the metal and thought "Damn that's some strong, badass metal" and decided to use it? Or more likely: Blizzard hadn't thought of The Jailor at that point, which inevitably leads to small plotholes such as these.
What an amazing video! Can't wait for part 2! For all we know the mental strain Bolvar endured to stay afloat and not give in to the darkness, could have been why he looked so weak against Sylvanas. Add to the equation her increase in power and we have that fight summed up. I feel Sylvanas is playing games with the jailer and sooner or later she's going to turn against the him and get revenge. This new lore has me intrigued, because it ties many loose ends (in a blizz fashion lol).
I would love to see that "You imagine yourself to be free" line to be some sort of mechanic or twist in the fight against the Jailer raid encounter. Imagine the Jailer taking control of the death knight players, empowering them and using them against the raid, since they "exist by his whim alone". That would be such a cool twist. Maybe sort of like a mythic only mechanic. If there aren't any DKs, he just transforms people in to DKs or something.
I know that you put a lot of love and effort in this video, but I am so not sold that this is all lore that meshes together. Blizz is simply not that smart. Starting around Burning Crusade, Warcraft lore has been riddled with contradictions resulting from the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. The Arthas novel did everything to convince us that Arthas was the dominant mind; then WotLK immediately contradicts it. Years and years of this has made me not care anymore. What's the point in liking any story point when Blizz will just invalidate it later with some contrived "plot twist", the unpredictability of which is contingent only on its sheer contrivance?
@Fotachi george constantin They couldn't have told you regardless cause they just came up with this shit. But man, you cannot keep retconning stuff continuously . Once is already dangerous but fine, you'd probably welcome the plot twist. Twice is getting already stale. More than that and the whole lore becomes a joke and by now Blizz has done it countless times.
@Fotachi george constantin Yea and now imagine, that there are actually books out there, that describe ho nerzhul was captured by kil jaeden and made his pawn once more. I guarantee you, that they have not thought this far ahead at any point. This shadowlands storyline came to their minds some time during legion maybe and they delved deep into their archives to figure out how to make it seem like they had this grandious plan all along. but no, no they hadn't.
The storyline is a steaming mess if you have followed it. They simply keep piling bigger villains on what they called the Greatest Villains on and on like a Pyramid with no top and retconning and recycling crap from few years ago. I am sure in 5 years they will be like oh and did you know we lied to you that Jailor had no Boss, he does he is even more mundane, insipid and recycled with the same voice actor and lame lines?
What do you expect them to do then? Rename the game to world of lovecraft where everyone becomes friends and the world becomes peaceful. The gameplay will be /hugging each other
@@Stormchoirs if that makes you feel better. BTW i left 4 years ago. But m not beyond returning if things improve. I have kept up with the lore and yes its been a crap sandwich.
@@PeepoFrog Do better? Not recycle beaten dead horses? Not change canon for almost every important past character? Be more consistent? IDK its crazy ambitious i know, something they have never done before . :) If you are happy with it i am happy for you, l am not and so i commented.
@@sushanalone come up with an idea then. The one thing i think is boring and repetetive about the expansions is that the outcome is always the same we ALWAYS win even how strong the "threat" is. How about we lose for once and continue an expansion after the enemy took over.
but when arthas puts on the helm in the final wc3 cinematic, he/they say "now we are one" wich in my opinion states that ner zhul was still somwhere in the lich kings mind, since arthas didnt knew he was mind controlled until his final moments. id like to see us free arthas from the maw and maybe beat nerzhul as a raidboss
In the book, which is canon, arthas is inside his mind with the young version of himself and Nerzhul. When he finally kills the good side of himself, nerzhul applauds him, only for arthas to kill him too, stating that there is no WE, that only he is the Lich King.
Wait. "The moment he donned the Lich King's helm , the holy Light had abandoned him " But it doesn't abandon Anduin, even though he's in the Maw. Maybe the Jailor wants Anduin because he'd then have a Light wielding DK on his hands. That would be scary powerful and it would also set Anduin on the path of wielding both, the Light and the Dark.
All I can think of whenever the Lich King comes up as a possible re-occurring character is how much I despise the fact that they changed the voice actor for WoW. My wish is they re-employ the original Arthas voice actor. He was so amazing.
Maybe not in specific, as his echo wouldn’t know her new allegiances. But she’s undead. She’s a creation of the Jailer’s power. And now she’s his direct instrument. So in a way, probably so.
He's talking to the DK player. Basically telling them "You're still a tool of Bolvar." I think Bellular is reading WAAAAAY too much into that. It's Arthas talking to the player, not Arthas thinking out loud to himself.
@@Kylora2112 I think you’re right that he’s talking to the player, but that’s essentially what Bell said, if I understood him right. Warning you you’re still a tool of the Jailer even if we didn’t know who that was yet.
He is talkign to the DK player, even though we have broken free from Arthas and killed him and have worked with Bulvor we are still ultimitly a tool of the Jaliors end game.
This was one of your better videos @BellularGaming; this style of investigative reporting into Warcraft lore was why I had originally subscribed. A bit plagued by redundancy but otherwise quite good. I like the editing in of actual game cinematic footage as evidence. I look forward to future videos of this style.
"Without its master's command, the scourge will become an even greater threat. Control must be maintained. There must always be.... A Lich King" the image of King Terrenes says this at the Fall of the LK. Using this video in context, it makes me wonder if Terrenes was being used as, essentially, a propaganda piece to ensure that the helm would be worn, as the jailer cannot interact directly with Azeroth. He simply couldnt have accounted for Bolvar being so strong, spiritually.
When you perfectly manipulate someone, they will never realize that they were manipulated, and will truly believe they did what they did, because they wanted to, because they chose to do it.
Yep just like people are manipulated to think that this silly explanation that 'Arthas did not know' makes sense. By that logic nothing can be real and everything could be being or had been manipulated and writers can apply it to any story or character, leaving a self contradicting and unsolvable senseless mess. How do you know who is not manipulated? Is the Jailor manipulated or are the bad writers manipulating us into believing this garbage?
@@sushanalone Blizz can make up whatever the hell they want lol they made the games. Its not exactly thrown in your face either, at least it's built up on.
@Richard Ashendale It isn't, because the jailer could have always been the one whispering to arthas through frostmourne and or controlling arthas through the helm, just because they may not have thought of that yet, doesn't mean they can't weave it in.
@Richard Ashendale I don't see how it affects his character at all, the lich king and arthas are 2 different beings, uther literally says he is not in full control in WotLK.
I'm not sure throwing away the Old Gods into a ditch only to be one upped by a Johnny-come-lately was part of Metzen's lore. Ice Crown Citadel is made of Saronite, it was always heavily implied that the Old Gods were behind the Lich King's plotting during Wrath. It was implied that Sylvanas' corrupted and twisted vision of death when she threw herself off the top of ICC was influenced by the Saronite. So twisted was her vision it drove her mad.
@@ZamboniElite Fun fact: if you dive within the lake south to the Shadow Vault in Icecrown, you'll find some of Yogg's tentacles coming from underneath the ground lol
@@hmthisisit Thats interesting, id like to see that, that would then mean that maybe the original intent could had been that yogg is involved. Saronite being the blood of yogg-saron(nite)
@BellularGaming Lot's of good stuff here. Really appreciate anyone that takes a deep look at the lore. So a question that came to mind while watching this: What are the chances that Sylvannas is going to be portrayed as a person performing a long con here? Since Warcraft 3, we have never really known what is going on in her head, and her history is rife with betrayal after betrayal. But her driving force was always her desire for revenge: Revenge against Arthas for killing her and making her a "monster," revenge against the living for despising and hating her, etc. Now, you point to evidence that suggests that Arthas may not be the real thing she should have been angry at. It was all a part of The Jailor's desire to consume Azeroth that ultimately led to her home's destruction, her death, and the consequential animosity that followed . It seems odd to me, but not impossible, that she would wholeheartedly support The Jailor, especially if she is aware that the evils of the Scourge and the Lich King were all his plans (hence the speech on top of Icecrown). Given her history of betrayals, and how Blizzard apparently doesn't want us to ever know what she is really about, do you think they may try to twist her back into a "good guy," like Illidan was in Legion? (As an aside, I never figured him a bad guy, since I played a ton of Warcraft 3, and the campaign suggested to me that he had no issue with Azeroth, but then BC came along and it seemed they abandoned that idea . . . and there's a lot more to go through here, but not for this comment). I know there are other signs that pointed to her involvement with the Jailor back in Legion, and even before at the end of WotLK. And sure, they could have been building her into Garrosh 2.0 (just with less of a good reason to do so)(i.e., rebuilding the Orchish Horde into something great vs killing everyone because spite). But after she pitched herself off the edge of Icecrown and was introduced to the Valkyr and the Jailor, I am wondering if she found a new reason to live. The same reason that she had after she was killed by Arthas: Revenge. Interested in everyone's thoughts on this if it gets around. Thanks again for the video and the insights.
We already know why Bolvar was able to resist, well ok if you completed the Ice Crown Citadel where we literally hear Bolvar screaming as he is tortured. Then we are directly told the darkness couldn't break him, and he was given the mantle of the lich king.
So now their retconing chronical. What a fractured lore, when frostmourne was shattered he got his soul back. The lion before the lambs speech shows that he knew he needed to be defeated, with the helm on still.
Well i'm sorry but I very much dislike these ''not ret-con'' to the Lich King's and Arthas' stories. The way they ''not ret-conned'' the origin of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination is very frustrating. Edit: the echoes of Arthas were referring to Yogg Saron. Everyone knows that.. Icecrown Citadel literally sits on a mountain of saronite.
I agree. I enjoyed the story much more, when it REALLY was the fallen prince being dominant and nobody else. It was a great saga of the fall of a virtuous man into villainy.
Agreed. They're trying to pretend they had this storyline planned for years and seem smart in the process. They new lore is not popular so they're tying it back into the most popular expansion in hopes of driving interest.
@@rumblepuss8848 This. They can't write for shit these days, so they're trying to score some nostalgia points by writing new story that's connected to the story from older, better expansions.
Or Silvanas already know that they all are NPC's in mmo game. Like Deathpool know he is comic/move character and speaks directly to reader/audience from time to time.
If this is true, it could be an interesting plot point for Sylvanas to discover this link. If she realised the jailer had a major hand in turning her into a banshee, it'd definitely mess with their agreement they have going on.
I think she knows. She's using the Jailer for power and to gain knowledge. She's refocused her hatred of Arthas, and I believe will turn against the Jailer at a critical moment. She's playing a very long game.
to those asking why Sylvannas went to the maw when she died but then got better. Frostmourne tore Sylvannas' soul apart and left nothing but a specter under the will of Arthas. when Arthas started losing his strength due to the tie between the lich king and him being severed the banshee Sylvannas was able to act of her own accord along with many untethered undead to which the more intelligent undead became her new same situation followers. she fully believed Arthas was the sole contributor to her torment and went to as long of a length she could get to kill him. when Arthas fell she felt like she had no reason to go on, threw herself off Icecrown and got some saronite spikers for her trouble, she clearly didnt like the vision of the maw she was given as her soul was obliterated when she was torn from her body by the blade, she would have been "touched by the maw" due to Frostmourne's collateral damage and obviously the jailer gave her a little vision what WOULD have been in store and what she can change it to if she cooperates. obviously the selfish Sylvannas went for option B, revived by the Val'kyr she set out on her warpath of achieving her "perfect death" fulfilling every goal she needed to free the jailer. i believe she still see's that her own death was all Arthas but i think she's getting to the point where she knows it was the jailer, and what better way for the spiteful banshee queen to enact vengeance than to bring the jailer to Azeroth only to tear him apart for her being the monster that she is. after all she is a VERY selfish person, as the nightelf in the burning of Teldrassil put it. "you have made life your enemy" and of course this would piss off the very selfish banshee queen. so what better way to spite both the living and the dead? destroy both. im calling it now she will try and destroy both the living and the shadowlands in one sweep, purely out of spite.
Find it very ironic that Sylvannas defining trait among the lore up to WotLK was her defiance of the Lich King's will and now she ends up working for him again seemingly of her own will this time.
I would be really upset if this is true. Part of what made Arthas and the Litchking so great was his agency. The fact all the choices he made where his own and he was in control. To take that away and just make it "Arthas was a helpless victim of the jailer." Would suck.
I mean it was pretty obvious he lost self agency shortly after he took up the blade. Do you really think he caused the fall of Lordaeron for funsies? No, it was presumed he was under control of Ner'Zhul up until his death and it was revealed that Arthas was actively fighting against the helm and blades corruption.
@@W_W-f8y but the choice to take up frostmorne was his. All frostmorne did was steal his soul what he did next was his choice frostmorne just enabled him to do so. Think of it like being brainwashed and told to rob a store vs just being told for 24 hours your actions will have no consequences and you decide to use that to rob a store. In one situation you have no agency in the other you do. In the other situation the choices made are still your own.
i knew it. i was talking a few months ago about how the lore coming out and pieces of lore that were all the way from burning that seemed to say the tag "the jailor was here". great work Bellar.
The moment before Arthas talks to his fathers spirit seems a lot more important now. His eyes snap open he, he looks straight up and inhales sharply. Very much like someone who had just awoken from a nightmare.
Am I tho only one who noticed the irony that one of the Lich King's titles was "The Jailor of the Damned", and a being called "The Jailor" was actually in control?
I have a weird feeling that Sylvanas is playing a very deep and dangerous game, that she truly seeks and end to the Jailer. She is working for the Jailer in the same way Azshara was working for N'Zoth - but kept seeking ways to undermine the Old God. Seems pretty likely that Sylvanas will use the Jailer until the moment she can turn against him... and in a sense, redeem herself.
Well, to be honest, it would be awesome to see what blizzard has in mind for this story arc. It could have some pretty bad consequences for her and her followers though, much like how azshara and all her followers got warped and turned into the naga race we see running around. SO maybe sylvanas has a similar fate, and any of the undeads that followed her and supported her turn into some sort of mutation of an undeads thingy.
i was straight up thinking that, recently i was listening to the old warcraft 3 dialogue and they often refer to the lich king in ways like that, dark lord, but its particularily cool since its often malganis and kelthuzad, people we now know side with the jailer
@@ShadeStormXD Im glad i wasnt the only one thinking of that :) - Since the dreadlords have been plotting for such a long time, it would make very much sense!
yeah holy crap he could have said what does the Lich King tell you but instead he said Dark Lord now that line makes even more sense for Shadowland that might have been a sneaky slip up from Malganis damn those Dreadlord's
19:57 is wrong. Icecrown Citadel was built *after* the events of Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, by which point The Lich King (now Arthas) had seceded from The Burning Legion. Furthermore by that point the remaining nathrezim on Azeroth had sided or Infiltrated The Forsaken and The Scarlet Crusade, so they still could not have directed the construction of ICC
Chronicle 3, I believe, states that ICC was built by the Nathrezim, presumably while Arthas was dormant on the throne. As a mirror of Torghast in the shattered sky above, this ties some things together really nicely.
Narius at the very least a symbolic connection and visual metaphor.Possibly a physical and magical ritual to anchor Torghast and the Maw closer to Azeroth.
It's obviously the Jailer's influence that's behind the citadel's architecture, as it's a straight- up copy of Torgast. Since Arthas was unaware of the Jailer, he probably thought the design was his own idea.
recently re-read the arthas novel. if anyone doubts that they plan THIS FAR AHEAD, just go to the epilogue. they literally describe all the way thru legion in startling detail. it has all been leading up to this. the book even mentions things that allude to the jailer, his influence, the reality of ner'zhul...................
Don't forget the Arthas book where they talk about what was going on inside the helm during the Lich Kings hibernation. There were multiple presences inside.
@@zszyTW Not really, the Lich King always had his own machinations and desires, the legion used him as a means to an end, but beyond that we never knew the true extent of his role, not even in wrath. We knew at most that he controlled the leagues of undead, and kept most of them back, we never really knew why, where that power originated from, or truly from who.
I’ve always been under the impression Arthas was fighting the helm, holding it back and that we were not sure what that entity really was. I like how the lore is being expanded on now.
Maybe like item sets just the helmet wasn't enough for the Jailer to get enough control over the wielder, it also needed Frostmourne, Bolvar hasn't used both of those items, just the helmet so far, if he had Frostmourne or the Blades of the fallen Prince at the same time it could have been the edge that The Jailer needed to overcome his will.
This is getting me super hype for Shadowlands. This all makes a ton of sense. I've been confused by Arthas's final words for years and years. Thanks for tying all these ends together!
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Hell of a vid, A+
Is the dog for sale? Very cute puppers :D
Actually, the magnets aren't great for renters cause it tears half the wall with it when you pull them off when you have to move. Sadly speaking from experience here :p
I was actually interested in it but they have much less WoW artwork than i expected if they sponsor you. Gul'dan and M'uru look really good but apart from nothing for me.
This is anopther great vid, but the intro times before you actually get to "what this video is about" at 7:30min is starting to push patience, it' could have been a 20min vid ;)
Maybe the real Lich King was the friends we made along the way.
Hahahah
Feels
People are never going to get sick of this stupid ass played out joke, apparently
I love you. Lmao
@@cashnelson2306 Sorry but i dont get that joke
Activision = The Jailer.
Blizzard = The Lich King (both as Arthas and Bolvar).
WotLK was released in 2008, a few months after Activision Blizzard was established. Blizzard thought they were in control, but that never was the case. While they were able to withstand the Jailer‘s influence for a while, they ultimately failed, leading to their fall and loss of influence.
Wow is better now than it was then
@@lostheboss7938 That‘s debatable. Personally I liked it better back in the day, but I can see that others like it more the way it is now.
My comment was not about how WoW changed over the years though, but about the parallels I see between the game‘s lore and the corporate stuff going on at Activision Blizzard.
I‘m not saying this was planned all along, it‘s just an interpretation, nothing more.
With BFA i had the same tought, corruption inside the company, people leaving. etc. At some point i tought the designers where sending messages in these "forms" wich.. at the same time is not crazy, the company has a track record of using real world things to influence the game. idk
@Richard Ashendale While I agree wow is worse now, you don't just get to call anyone who likes the current iteration a troll.
Blizzard = you guys don't have phones..?
the Jailer = time for plan B
This even explains why Bolvar never just ordered all the mindless Scourge to walk into an open volcano or something.
He didn't have full control over them because he was constantly struggling against The Jailor.
Yeah, it wasn't that the jailor was fighting to keep Bolvar from doing something. It was Bolvar barely being able to hold back the unstoppable will of the Jailor.
And Arthas had a misleading perception of control, which is why the Scourge was halted yet not thrown into a volcano.
Though I wonder what was his play during Legion, or more likely why did he name someone Deathlord, and does Deathlord have a connection to Jailor?
Deathlord is probably the same leadership position of the ebonblade that the Lich King was. Probably.
@@muffinman2546 I think this is most likely the case especially now since the Lich King as we know him is gone and Bolvar has taken on the role as Highlord which is the same as Darion who is not only the head of the Four Horseman but also seems to be the second in command under the Deathlord within the ranks of the Knights of the Ebon Blade. This means that Bolvar is at least as equivalent as Darion and is and now serves the Deathlord.
Uther: "He was my student."
Arthas: "Still not gonna drop Invincible."
Uther: *Drops Arthas into the Maw.*
If his horse is called invincible, why can i still see it?
@@darkbladenexas Hope you are joking, but just to be safe it's Invincible as in Unbeatable.
His mount’s drop rate has earned him a permanent place in the maw! 😂
Wolfer just got introduced to WoW recently? Coz what he said was a running joke since wrath
@@999onetwothree Oh I know, but you would be suprised how many people tell it serioulsy. It can be quite vexing for somone who likes the lore.
*WoW's story team after watching this video*
"Wait, it actually makes sense? We were just retc- I mean... Yes! That's exactly what we meant!"
New information is not retconning. I wish people would fucking understand this. Retconning is when you take established facts and fuck with them. Just giving further information to expand on an existing story is NOT a retcon.
Wait. So if Arthas/LK 'created' Sylvanas, does that mean the Jailer was having her as an insurance policy, in case the LK ran afoul..
@@icikle Not directly, no, new information are not retconn. But, pulling a baddie from an ass and putting him as uber evil that changed EVERYTHING is, in essence, a shit on the lore-so-far and thus it FEELs and should be treated as a retcon.
@@MarkoFTW Facts dont care about your feelings. All I heard is that you dont like the new information. Still Doesnt make it a retcon.
@@icikle While facts in deed do not care about my feelings, good sales do care.
why Sylvannas would side with the Jailor? souldn't she be mad at him the same way she was towards Arthas? if you think about it, the Jailor, not Arthas, made Sylvannas who she is.
Probably using him for her own gain, we know that she saw Arthas as a child when she suicided at Icecrown and realized he was nothing in the scheme of things.
Right now she's getting power from The Jailer and it wouldn''t surprise me if she's planning on using it against him.
@@MathiasE80 the thought of her trying to use his own power against him did cross my mind as well
@@AtilonWoW still, she has always been driven by vengeance!
@Marcos Paul Souza do Carno I personally believe at her death, she saw what Jailor has done, and his grand scheme to dominate the world soul. In an attempt to prevent that, she made allegiance. I'm of the opinion that what we're seeing from Sylvanas is what people saw from Illidan in TBC.
@@raminsadrzade7152 i'm of that opinion as well! i'm also really hoping that is the case, because i fell like they ruined Sylvannas turning her into "this".
I think that Alexstraszas flames helped bolvar to stay in control, after all Alexstrasza is the aspect of live and so the opposite of the Jailor himself.
good point actually
yeah, agreed
But where did she get her life powers from?
@@CosmicCleric titan watchers
@@yuuta4473 Yep. And the jailor was described as Titan++.
You forgot to mention the dialogue that Jaina has when you find her locket on Arthas during the Shadowmourne quest. The fact that he kept it the whole time hinted that his humanity was still lingering somewhere within the Lich King.
They would have had the strongest kids ever if Arthas didn't fall.
@@taylornowa8252 Jaina shouldn't have abandoned him.
@@SycosenMerihem Arthas broke his relationship off with her, she did not abandon him. She chose not to follow down the obvious dark path he was going down.
@@floofietv5183 They begrudgingly, but mutually decided to break up. Jaina abandoned him when he needed her the most.
@@taylornowa8252 I think Med'an is/was the strongest child character in WoW, but they canonically nerfed him
The funniest part is that at the end of the Shadowlands, we will find out that Sylvanas did all of this so she can finish the Jailer, because he was the one controlling Arthas, thus being the responsible for converting Sylvanas into undead, which is what she always hated the most. Blizzard now days looks like the old Brazilian and Mexican novels, always with the same stories all over and over. Illidan was a villain, become the one that saved everything... Now will be Sylvanas saving everything, bla bla bla.
And 5 years later Bliz will say The jailor was controlled by Borat 2, so she will then destroy the remaining alliance cities to get him, then in 2030 Bliz would be like Borat 2 was controlled by his son Bilo the 3rd.....WTF it has to be a Trolling ... pls tell me.
@@sushanalone Billo the 3rd xD I love IT!
It was Hogger all along
And then after that, Sylvannas will go after Blizzard, because they wrote her into turning undead and etc.
Jumping out of the game and organizes a 25 player raid on the Final Raid, Blizzard HQ.
and we all know that Nothing can stop a 25-player Raid team!
Bro sylvanas literslly had a pack with him...still have
*your missing a LOT of facts...FROSTMOURNE is the key.* (even though that reduces your video to redundancy) Arthas was corrupted by the sword long before he donned the crown and he had to contend with BOTH artifacts - remember that he went full evil because of Frostmourne, NOT the helm - the helm just obliterated his personality (however corrupted it was by the blade).
Bolvar never had to contend with the corruption of Frostmourne (the MOST powerful artifact representing the Maw's power outside Shadowlands). He was JUST tortured for several days? It was NOT because of his outstanding personality or goody-2-shoes character or any virgin "purity" of soul nonsense (what the heck does purity even mean when referencing a character and why would it have any connection with power unless your going down the "power of love" route). Had Bolvar had his soul taken by Frostmourne, ya he woulda corrupted lickity split as well to the helm. Arthas was contending for over 5 years. Talk about sheer will and power. Why do you think we only ever hear Arthas speak as himself for the 1st time in ICC? its not cause the helm is gone, its cause the blade is 1st shattered, AND THEN the helm is also gone. Arthas was contending with a LOT of shit and im amazed his powerful personality survived it even after BTOH effects of the maw were gone - *i would def NOT call Arthas a "WEAK" man, character or personality.* Its not fanboying either - i literally dont know of another soul (Thrall, Uther, Illidan) that would have managed to come out of being corrupted by both Frostmourne AND the Helm for 1/2 a dozen years at least and STILL try to hold ack the scourge from over-running Azeroth. That ambiguity is what makes the Lich King interesting - if he was just a "weak and evil man" like you reduce it to, its SO boring and arbitrary to the point of being a cartoon villain...Blizz has intentionally left things like that vague for years for reasons.
The man didnt bend to anyone (not Uther or his father or Jaina) and certainly was selfless enough to toss away his own emotions and even love for Jaina to do what he was convinced needed to be done - i mean the poor citizens of Stratholme were literally turning into undead monstrosities and he was BARELY able to stay ahead of it and even that was with extreme measures - if he had hesitated even an hour or 2 longer, the amount of undead his men would have to face would have been significant - and the citizens trapped in those forms...these are not the actions or measures of a "weak" man unless you by weak u mean selfish (why and in what context? what did he ever gain other than heartache by continuing to make hard choices which had no right answers) or not goody-2-shoes because the context of the situation didnt allow for it? What was he supposed to do? Its not like Uther or Jaina had any solutions and the ppl of the city were going to be trapped in undead husks serving the Legion until they rotted away...
Red shirt guy! Checking everyone lol hell yeah. I was trying to find a way to word it!
Very well said. He was in fact incredibly strong-willed. Beneath Icecrown, deep in the ruins of Azjol-Nerub, Arthas impressed Anub'arak by surviving alone against traps, cave-ins, and faceless ones. To which Anub'arak exclaimed, "I see now why the Lich King chose you to be his champion." Hint: it was not because he was weak.
Illidan probably could have managed it. 6 years of corruption is nothing on 10000 years solitary and retaining sanity/possibly having a fragment of sargaras as your demonsoul.
@@aaronfalcon3152 not everything has to be a competition between these two, you know!
.
.
.
.
That said, Illidan got whooped.
"even though that reduces your video to redundancy"? I think you're getting a little too excited here. I get you're a big Arthas fan, but this video's about more than whether or not he was a weak character.
"i see only darkness before... me..."
uther "yeet"
Hahahahahaha savage bruuu
gold mate xD
"Oh wait, my hood is down"
BRO , im dead
This still does not fit well with most of the Dreadlords actions and Their conflicts with Arthas during WC3...
everyone should be expecting retcons by now
Exactly. Even during wotlk we have dread lords conspiring against the frozen throne and seeking revenge for Arthas.
What a bunch of crappy retcons. They just can't end the story.
I was thinking exactly the same…
THE DREADLORDS PLAYED KIL'JAEDEN INTO CONNECTING THE JAILER TO AZEROTH
THE DECEIVER WAS DECEIVED.
Then they spent the next thirty years trying to dethrone the Lich King.
@@moscanaveia because they were jealous of a human being the champion of Zuval lol
@@danielwalker6230 Or maybe it's almost like Kil'jaeden rounded them up and said. "How cute, you unleashed the Lich King on Azeroth."Then they all had a hearty laugh, when Kil'jaeden suddenly stops laughing and just says "Now go and fix it."
Except it's not like either of those scenarios, yours or mine. Because the Lich King kept pulling the rug from under the dreadies' feet too.
@@moscanaveia If so then why did Kiljaeden order Illidan to destroy the frozen throne not dreadlords ? Obviously it's because the Nathrezim were not trustworthy both for the jailor and the legion, eventhough they were agents of Denathrius. Remember Denathrius betraying the jailor once ...
@@danielwalker6230 I didn't read up on the story, so please don't spoil me with this shit. But this retcon pisses on the dreadlords. Everything they did to the Scourge and the Scourge did to them, from Arhas telling Illidan how to kill Tichondrius to the dreadlords trying to assassinate Arthas and wresting control of the Scourge from the Lich King, makes no sense under this new light that both served the same master. If they were really trying to betray the Jailer, why weren't they thrown overboard long before Shadowlands?
um... why every1 keep forgetting Arthas' words from vision in Highmountain?:
Memory of Arthas whispers: You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own...
Memory of Arthas whispers: Yet you do as He commands.
Memory of Arthas whispers: You exist by His whim alone.
Memory of Arthas whispers: You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument...
Yeah this is so clearly a self reflection from Arthas. Kudos for bringing up this reference; I'd forgotten about it.
For a while i am still thinking he is mentioning YOU the player being the one in total control of this poor guy and his suffering.
Seems to be a trend with old content characters turning out to be good in the end and we fought them just cuz we didn't have "enough information"
I’ll admit the fall of illidan and Arthas to corruption arcs make them hint empathetic villains in the thanos way but we can still acknowledge their evil thinking still left them good guys in their heads but clearly not in reality was interesting twice and deathwing and rag just loosing full out to the dark powers they called was satisfying to put down. but it ruins the world immersion if there’s just always a bigger evil pulling the strings behind every evil that comes out blizzards ass is good for expansions directions but seems like a 7th grader making villains for a super hero comic book.
I think calling Arthas a good person, or that even Blizzard is trying to claim that he was one, is not the case, and I also don't think thats the case Bell is trying to make either. All they were saying is that he did in fact have some incredibly small part of him trying to be good, we would call this a doubt. Good people have doubts ALL the time, the exact same thing can be said about bad people. Labelling any character "They are good/bad therefore everything they do and think is good/bad." is just bad writing across the board, super simplistic. His trying to be a good person was very much drowned by his very many character flaws. Arthas was Bad. Illidan was ALSO bad and they stick with that story, they never LEAVE that story, the repartee between Kayn and Altruis is very much the proof of this, not to mention Illidan complete and total willingness to absolutely annihilate a Prime Naaru without even blinking. Its not that we didn't have "enough information", rather its that we cannot tunnel vision individuals as THEY ARE BAD THEREFORE ALL THOUGHTS/GOALS/AMBITIONS ARE BAD. Its truly excellent writing, willing to step out of the black and white and show just how gray everything truly is.
2030: finally know the Jailer is good.
a huge thank you to the entire team. the quality of the videos, visually as well as content wise, is very well done and well put together.
So when Sylvanas died, she was dominated by the Jailer through the Val'kyr. He used them to trick her. That seems to make alot of sense to me.
She wasn't "dominated" in the way that the helm did. She was manipulated, yes, but actually of her own "free will". Essentially when she went to hell she realized "oh this shit sucks" and the jailer (through the Val'kyr) offered her a way out. She took it.
What if she is double agent,not all in nature are gone into sluber. I hope story will be decursed.
Now this actually makes a lot of sense with her sudden character sway in cataclysm and complete change in legion
In my eyes shes was killed and dominated by Arthas. Thats why during the Arthas book she eventually breaks hold. That would mean the Jailer lost power half way during Arthas' reign.
@@djodjekg81 I don't. I don't think she's worthy of redemption at this point from an in lore character perspective and from a player I just don't enjoy the character any more. If they did they redemption thing I expect a lot of people would collectively groan.
I was thinking about why a being so powerful like the Jailer needed to have someone else also inside the helm. I just think that however powerful the leaders of the cosmic entities are, they themselves cannot easily enter the material realm. Like how the void lords just didn't come to corrupt Azeroth but sent the Old Gods. Or how the light needs someone to have faith in order to manifest itself. The soul in the helm was the Jailer's link link to this world, but now that the veil is broken he could more easily enter or something.
Anyway love your videos, keep making them!
I think the Jailer's influence was all that he could put inside the helm. Which is why they infused Ner'Zhul into it, in order to give it more power. That coupled with Frostmourne gave the Jailer an opportunity to take over Azeroth. His ability to send great deals of power into the material realm is limited just as it is with the other entities. This is why having the Dreadlords being spies and agents of the Jailer fits so well. He has been stealing power and turning forces against themselves for ages waiting for his chance to enact his plan.
As to the veil, that was definitely the end goal and the reasoning for constructing Ice Crown Citadel. Plan A was to remove anyone of power on Azeroth before shattering the veil, as that is a two way street. Plan B(ackup) gives us an opportunity to stop it by being able to go into the Shadowlands and the Maw itself.
Damn so Arthas was resisting the Jailer so much the Jailer literally ripped out his heart to destroy his humanity and Arthas STILL resisted to save Azeroth 😪
Bolvar is just built different, he just told the Jailer No.
I think that’s important when people discuss how responsible Arthas was for his actions. Sure, by the time he’d taken frostmourne and put on the helmet he was almost completely gone, but the whole reason they targeted him is that he was prone to corruption.
@@ValensBellator I would say that bolvar taking up the helm was different because he knew to resist it where as arthas did not believe the power that was corrupting him was corrupting him.
I guess they just made up this story 4-5 years ago, when the story of Arthas was dead. They just filled the lore gaps with jailer etc.
@@ValensBellator YES dont make home completly a good guy
@@davidbelkofer8933 why i didnt think so? Because was to confident.
I have a whole new perspective on Bolvar. They did him dirty with cinematic
Yeah as someone knowing very little about him i thought he was just some overhyped weakling given how he has his own power and the lich kings power and loses to Sylvannas. But knowing that he was basically at his wits end with his strength being challenged by the jailer at the same time really puts into perspective that he just didnt have any strength left.
For me too.
Same. I thought he was just weak, but really he just couldnt fight anymore
@@rasmachris94 Added to that, he was using the power of the Lich King to fight her, as the transition from red to blue (his own red fires of Alexstraza’s lifegiving flame shifting to the icy blue of death). She was using the power the Lich King’s power stems from. And the one thing you can’t defend against is yourself. He was leaning on that icy well of magic to stop her; she kicked the support out from under him and he fell hard - probably not realizing how much of him was now relying on that strength as it wore his own will down.
I imagine the Jailer also helped in that fight, pressing against Bolvar, straining his concentration, if not inhibiting his strength.
Imagine fighting a battle on two fronts. One of the body, against the Banshee Queen, AND one of the mind against the jailer.
The fact he did as well as he did AT ALL is a testament to Bolvar's power, and will.
I feel like part of why Bolvar may have been able to resist the Helm so much would be due to him being completely suffused with the flames of the lifebinder - essentially pure life energy, the antithesis of death/undeath.
Of course, his extreme strength of will and devotion to keeping Azeroth and her inhabitants safe also plays a huge roll in his ability to resist the Helm and contain the Scourge.
Honestly i just find that confusing.
The 'lifebringer' energy came from a titan's blessing, in other words, order not life though.
I guess they are neighbors...sort of?
@@randomnobody660 I agree. This part of the lore doesn't make sense. If anyone has an explanation I would like to know how this works. Eonar is a titan (so she should be associated with order, right?) But she's also a titan of life? She facilitates and creates it I thought? So how is she on the pantheon of order. Since there's a death pantheon, beings of death are in it. Why is eonar in league with order people? Shouldn't there be a life pantheon? Idk...
@@HOBOsnake Like what @dianna k said, there is life within order. I would also think it applies to the Shadowlands too, specifically, Ardenweald. Its a part of the Shadowlands, the place people go when they die and the Winter Queen is a Pantheon of death but unlike the rest of the factions of Shadowlands, Ardenweald nurtures the souls of deceased gods for them to be reborn again, aka giving them life. It makes me wonder if Life and death are inherent absolutes amongst the cosmology chart and no matter what "faction" the chart puts someone in to, even death, it will always be accompanied by life.
@@randomnobody660 Titans are from order sure, but sargeras could wield fel (or became resistant or some shit), so you can influence other aspects of magic other than your original one. Titans are also born from planets, where the life on the planet might have an effect on the titan, think counter old gods.
muddybloody no, planets form around titan world souls, they are not born from planets lmao
Last time I was this early the Lich King was still Arthas Menethil.
So end of W3?
You stole my idea lol
Last time I was this late Ner'zhul was walking into an unstable portal.
He still is as there is and will never be another LK.
This kind of complex, non-canon, retroactive, interpretive storytelling happens in any shared fiction. Marvel, DC, Forgotten Realms, etc.... Pretty much anywhere you have a lore that has been developed over 10+ years by dozens of different authors coupled with minimal effort spent on continuity review; this happens. I can hardly think of any (if any) large IP, that has multiple creators, over a long time period, that does not suffer this. For me at least, I have just learned to accept it as an phenomena of fictional settings. I will not be surprised at all, when WoW writers start talking about parallel dimensions or alternate realities (much like Marvel and DC have) in an attempt to pull all of these much frayed strings together into one continuity of storytelling.
Have we already forgotten WoD?
Right? I don't get why people hate any sort of change to the world. It needs to evolve. We can't just hang out with Thrall and Arthas for fifteen years. Stories have been retconned and fanfic'd for thousands of years. That is exactly part of their appeal.
@@williamreely3455 It's not that things change, it's HOW they changed. Most people tend to think the changes have not been good. I tend to agree. Most of the really big story beats and interesting character arches have been either sold short like Sageras or Ashara getting punked in one patch, or they've been completely derailed in favor of lesser stories like Ms Proudmoore's descent into hate filled madness to the point where she was willing to let the world fall to the Legion before allying with the Horde, and then she just...got over it off screen before the next expac.
This retcon is fine and makes sense BUT i hope we dont understimate how much Arthas was bad
@@williamreely3455 There is a difference between an evolving world and rewriting events.
Thats like going into our real wrld history and saying that julius caesar crossed the Rubicon, because his Octavian manipulated him into doing so to later succeed him on the Roman Throne. That's the level of bollox we are working with here.
We know now that the Jailer was in the helm, but back during WotLK that wasn't a thing. It was Arthas and Ner'zhul. The original references to Arthas being controlled by something in the helm is probably pointing to Ner'zhul
Except in the book he kills nerzhul at the end, taking full control
It’s likely that was the initial intent but with the new information it could’ve retconned out into being the Jailer
"the lich king" is the avatar of the jailer. Just like sargeras had his avatar to invade planets. The jailer used actual people chained in his armor to control them. Meaning we fought the jailer before, and actually should have lost.. so this should be interesting to see how we stop him this time.
And Sylvanas is different , she is his willing cohort for the same goal.. to slay all the living on Azeroth.
Ner'zhul : "Am I a joke to you people?"
i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/027/424/joke.jpg
KInda. I always thought it was strange that Ner'zhul who was just an Orc gained so much power out of nowhere.
who are you??
Yeah I found it weird that no one was bringing him up.
@@cn8299 Out of nowhere? Bruh, he was the most powerful shaman at the time, the most powerful necromancer, he wielded the scepter of Sargeras, and Kil'jaeden super buffed the fuck out of him to become the Lich King.
This laconic name is so, so much stronger that A NEW REVELATION ABOUT THE LICH KING - SHADOWLANDS WILL SHUDDER. Thank you for growing past that old self, Bellular.
Yup for past few videos his title has been too click baity
He’s said in videos before they don’t like doing clickbaity thumbnails and titles but are forced to by the algorithm. If they don’t do it, their videos get buried and lose views, so they lose money.
@@ArcadeStunfisk Well, and now, as he stated repeatedly, he does not need or want to do that anymore - that's what I am thanking him for, though, perhaps, I should thank his patrons instead.
I'm really dissatisfied with the re-contextualization of this whole arch. Removing any measure of agency that Arthas or Ner'Zhul had is ruinous for them as the characters they portrayed at the time of WOTLK, and leaves them as just another in a long line of "Mortal Villain Coerced by Ruinous Powers Into Doing Vile Stuff" the likes of which we see over and over and over and over and over and over again. I'm at a loss to think of any antagonist who acted of their own volition at this point that mattered other than in service to one of the 6 cosmic axis' behalf. I hope y'all have fun with it the game as it goes on, but I think I'm out until further notice.
I agree. Retconning arguable the most liked major story arch is bold and too be honest doesnt sit Well with me.
FeralVentas i find it insulting to my intelligence, that they are doing this. This could have been done with more grace and dignity without destroying past lore. Blizzard has ben lacking Originality for a decade, and waiting for a dead cat o purr over a decade has been a waste of time.
Retcons, recontextualizations, half ass explanations, underpowering old characters, overpowering lame characters, releasing Chronicles, then saying that was Arthas's point of view? So from being a fallen paladin who went too far to serve his nation he is now a 'weak pathetic loser who did not know how to pick his nose and stabbed his eye with his finger? Disgraceful, in 5 years they will do the same with Jailor.
how is it a chronicle then, are all chronicles point of views?
Multiple realities where Hitler and Garrosh are pacifist bee herders who made Azeroth Great Again?
WHY THE FUCK IS SYLVANAS ASSISTING THE JAILOR AND HATING ARTHAS IF THE JAILOR WAS IN CONTROL AND KILLED HER IN FIRSTPLACE??
Fkn mental Gymnastics.
Often the simplest explanation is the most likely one. They have lost it, the touch, the talent, the story, the creativity.
+1
I only started playing wow recently, all the lore seems to be getting tied up, even if it is a bit clumsy
would you have been happier if everything in this expansion was just completely unrelated to past lore
@@tomclarke7570 ,firstly, Welcome and best of wishes to your new adventures Tom; I think starting into the game Now means that while it'll take a long while to understand the whole picture, you won't be experiencing the game with the kind of baggage I have that's partly causing my discontent as a player; make no mistake, a lot of my hangups with all this are very personal, more than a critique of the game's designers at large. It's an "I don't like this," not a "This is bad" complaint.
If this Expansion had been entirely unrelated, or at least significantly divergent from previous expansions, I would've been much more inclined to at least join the rush of returning players that new expansions historically bring in; I'd want to give it a shot and see what the new direction really would be. Blizzard has done so with great success in the past with the Mists of Pandaria expansion; yes, the end-game had some ties to old-god corruption and so did Pandaria itself as part of its history, but the concepts, the characters, the environment and so forth were all novel in how they were presented, while still maintaining the atmospheric sincerity and experience that made me think "This is a real World of Warcraft Experience, it's a new and interesting and inspiring part of the world I've come to love."
My biggest gripes aren't so much with internal consistency; there's been a lot of work to connect things together and I respect the effort that went into it, but the resounding pinch-point for me is that the developments as they are currently shown have done so in a fashion that besmirches the fond memories I have of earlier parts of a story in which I felt like an active participant, even if in the role of a nameless and largely inconsequential one. The Wrath of the Lich King experience had a Weight to it that Really set in deep, and the follow-up of having Azeroth changed from the Vanilla to the Cataclysm map made that whole adventure even more poignant.
A major youtube project finished up about a week ago; Unas Annus. That comes to mind in this case because its over-arching theme was to embrace the importance and value that things have because they are going to end. The WOTLK era ended, and ended Well. Returning to it has its merits in looking to the past, but even if the game's writers or developers hadn't opted for character decisions that I really didn't care much for, the attempt to essentially retread the events in Northrend to recreate the same results doesn't sit well with me as a player. If it helps new players or those that came in post-cataclysm to make new memories and enjoy exploring Azeroth's relationship with Death and Finality, then that's great and I hope for nothing less for them.
It's just missed the mark with me. I think we could've done with a new time-skip every two or three expansions, and better still some major changes in the core map and world to really set it into a state of change, and to provide (or Require) a novel take to what the game is about going forward. Maybe I'll get lucky, and the next Expac will be enough of a retread of those ideas in Cataclysm's wheelhouse that Azeroth and WoW at large will get the narrative-hard-restart I'd ask of it before I felt it might be worthwhile to return.
Sorry for the wall of text, this game was a major part of my life for over a decade, and Warcraft games in general for over two. However long you stick with it, I hope you have a wonderful time.
I think this is plan C, you completely missed the whole BFA point.
Plan A: Lich King = Fail
Plan B: Get Sylvannas as the Warchief (lying to Vuljin about some spirits) and get her to start the 3rd War so that Horde and Alliance kill each other, that didnt go as plan, so then she tried something with Queen azshara, that didnt work. = FAIL
Plan C: Break the helm and connect to two realms, plan still to unfold.
I like it, but it was the 4th war
Likely because they pulled th e lore out of their ass at the last moment.
I think Plan B was a partial success because it put N'Zoth on the radar for the Horde and Alliance to gun down, buying the Jailer more time to claim the world soul (since N'Zoth was his primary competition at that point).
I'm kind of hoping we run into Ner'zul's soul in the maw. Especially since his soul was tied into the Helm of Domination, and since it's destruction his soul probably would've been sent back to The Maw in Shadowlands. Plus, it would be cool to see him and Arthas fighting AGAINST the Jailor in The Maw as sort of a rebel thing. One could only speculate though.
Kel thuzad is the main villain in Maldraxxus covenant campaign
Which mean Ner'zhul's bitch king material or chances are his soul just shattered at the opening of the Shadowlands from the helm of domination.
Chances are Ner'zhul was judged by the Arbiter and if he was considered as having done wrong he was given the opportunity to go to Revendreth to atone and join the Venthyr. However it is still possible that Ner'zhul may have gone elsewhere. Its almost impossible to get sent to the Maw as the Arbiter operates similar to the Judeo-Christian God in that you have an opportunity to repent and still atone even if its by being sent to the purgatory like realm that is Revendreth. This is the main reason that the Jailer is so mad. The Arbiter is not sending people to the Maw and so somehow things are now broken and all souls are being sent to the Maw. I could see both Arthas in particular learning what had happened and wanting retribution against the Jailer especially becuase he is in the Maw. I also would not be surprised if Arthas and Uther become reunited and its an extremely emotional reunion where they both make up for their misdeeds.
In the stupid, but canon, arthas novel, it's is stated that arthas destroyed ner'zhul's presence in his mind. That might mean that he unwittingly sent nerzhul to the maw
@@Makujah_ arthas dominated the jailer bitch Man ..
"Who is the Lich King?" ain't the age old question. It was Ner'Zhul, then Arthas and then Bolvar (which was already an asspull of its own according to Metzen). This villain behind villain behind the TRUE villain sounds like a sonic fanfic plot. Next expansion we'll learn that Bob the Janitor was the TRUE villain behind Jailor. He will be released by *insert old character here* who will get Garrosh/Sylvanas treatment this time around.
thats a retcon... and this is world of retcons
@M. Woller There is no need to create some "new more awesum" villain that fits into Archimonde's scheme in 3rd war like a square peg in a round hole. Scourge was created by nathrezim, who experimented with necromancy since war of the ancients, used through cult of the damned. That's it.
Hell, just use your little brain to see that creating deathlands is even more blatant and retarded excuse to recycle characters and content then WoD was. Time travel/alternate universe spells the death of writing in a franchise, but this is even more pitiful.
Arthas was able to resist as well. Not completely, but it was said that it was his last bit of humanity that kept him from sending the Scourge across the entire planet to scour everything.
N'Zoth whispers: Six seats at the high table. Six mouths that hunger. One will consume all others.
The Arbiter
Kyrestia the Firstborne
The Winter Queen
Sire Denathrius
The Primus
The Jailer
1: Titans (order)
2: Burning Legion (disorder)
3: Naaru (light)
4: Old Gods (void)
5: Shadowlands, Dreadlords (DEATH)
1: I
2: Dont
3: care
4: about
5:bad
6: retcons
there you go
@@paradoxinfinity-y2b XD
but they are actually trying to plan stuff out now, like the Old Gods stuff was really introduced with Mists of Pandaria and left to stew until Sargeras revealed he was trying to take out the Void
According to this lore, Sylvanas must be an enemy of the Jailer, because her entire being has been devoted to revenge against the one responsible for making her this way, whether it was Arthas or now a different power. If Blizzard does not make it so that Sylvanas' plan has been to destroy the Jailer all along, then the new Blizzard team has yet again completely betrayed the original lore.
@@mogalixir sylvanas is out there.. the one with the jailor is her body double
Shhht! You are making sense again. Dont tempt Blizzard to give a a stupid, self contradicting and intelligence insulting explanation to that.
like... Oh Sylvanas was too arrogant to know that her underwear was magically manipulating her.
They already betrayed the original lore. Making The Lich King a puppet is just stupid and an insult to the warcraft 3 fans.
@@julespulp214 exactly, after making Kiljaeden the manipulator do stupid invasion without support from Sargeras in Legion.
The way i see sylvanas, and judgeing by the original vanilla wow undead cinematic when creating a new undead character, sylvanas loyalties were never true to anyone, not even to the horde. So for me, it doesn't surprise me that her character and her motives have always been quite shady and sketchy. It is no surprise she is the way she is. I mean, initially she was saying she was with the horde to kill arthas, but i agree that she might actually want to kill the jailor, or at least use him to further her future goals, whatever they might be.
Makes one reconsider the vision in the yogg-saron vision when he says "I will break you as I broke him" Perhaps he wasn't talking about Dranosh but instead it was the jailor talking about Arthas..
It could also be interpreted as "arrogant Arthas" believing he has broken the presence in the helm. He believes he is in control because he has dominated the voice in the helm of domination!
Obviously, both of these ideas are ridiculous; I don't think Blizzard had a concept of The Jailor during WotLK. But it's still fun to look at how new information can change how we see the past.
there's no reconsideration needed. It was Arthas talking to Bolvar about Saurfang the Younger-- until a fan reminds blizz about that exchange and they retcon that, too.
remember they recently invented the jailor lmao
The amount of "Warcraft Chronicle volume 3" and "being in control" is too damn high.
So you could say.......
He was the helmsman?
Badum tss
he definitely was ... at the helm /insert david caruso sunglasses meme
Theerrre once was a ship that put to sea
This Death force being responsible for everything, even the Legion just doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t know, I’ll go back to 2016 in Legion were Chronicle meant something and there weren’t this million plots going on
I don't know, I think it adds to the world building that all these cosmic forces are competing with one another. Usually its the light or shadow instigating things, nice for it to be death instead for a change.
@Peri OListo The old gods are themselves servants of a cosmic power, so strictly speaking an old god and the lich king would be equals in term of cosmic power, with the jailer and the voidlords (the old gods' creators) being the next tier up.
Death isnt responsible for the legion. Theres 6 phenomenal cosmic powers life+death, light+shadow, chaos+order. Legion is from chaos, jailer and scourge is from death.
Muahahahah it was us all along!!1
Alchemist43 Who exactly drove Sargeras crazy by manipulating him as they have manipulated all the cosmic forces?
The dreadlords, beings of death. They prompted Sargeras to create the Legion, so yeah, they are responsible because they have been mAnIpuLatIng everything all along.
You see Arthas was just a pawn under the control of the bigger bad: the Jailer.
You see the Jailer was just a pawn under the control of the bigger bad: Madara.
You see Madara was just a pawn under the control of the biggest bad: Big Boss.
As Solidus Snake once said: pawns can never become players!
BUT YOU SEE THEY WERE ALL PAWNS OF THE REAL BIG BAD: EEYORE!
9999 IQ MASTERPLAN
So it was the Patriots all along?!?
Eventually Aisen says "even this was according to plan"
Small detail. It was Frostmorne that enslaved Arthas and stole his soul, not the helmet. Also, if it was actually the jailer the whole time then why even bother with Arthas? Seems like any schmuck could have filled the position.
The sword drove him mad and corrupted him, but it was still the helmet that allowed Ner'zul to assume control of him in entirety. (almost) and "Become One".
Frostmourne shattered his soul and weakened his resolve. Arthas was a good target because of his position in the Alliance and the weaknesses in his personality. He was consumed by the desire to eliminate Mal'Ganis and the legion at any cost, which led him into acquiring Frostmourne and then the Helm. The grand plan was to conquer Azeroth with the scourge then shatter the veil and consume it. Obviously the Lich King was able to be defeated, so the forces of Azeroth needed to be weakened by fighting the legion, and then destabilized by converting someone of power.
Simply getting to Frostmourn was no easy task, a frozen wasteland, with monsters, even a guardian.
Hell, even getting to Northrend was hard. Arthas lost a few ships getting there.
You'd probably also want someone skilled in combat, and have a understanding of magic.
Muridin (?) helped Arthas get to Frostmourn, but he wasn't blinded by anger, and sensed the evil power of the sword, advice and tried to stop Arthas from picking up the blade.
Meaning, someone sane, wouldn't touch Frostmourn.
I'm sure there were others that could have wielded it, but Arthas checked to many boxes.
The wealth to get to Northrend, the army to reach the sword, etc.
This expansion is going to be insane for the lore... I’m so excited.
Hope so! It seems they might be setting Arthas for redemption with the way things are going
@@cassiodalcin LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Arthas redemption arc though? Skeptical
Remember when people were excited about N'zoth?
Wasn't Yogg-Saron whispering things to Arthas aswell. Thats why he built ICC out of Saronite (yogg-sarons blood)?
Saronite doesn't adversely affect the undead, it just happened to be a powerful material located nearby that also had the added bonus of driving living things insane.
@@viysnjor4811 but Yogg-Saron was whispering to Arthas aswell.
@@viysnjor4811 Undead have a resistance to it. They aren't immune to the whispers of Yogg. As such ICC is a giant antenna for Yogg to influence the scourge with the same speed as trying to download an HD movie through dial up. Takes a crap ton of time, but that is something Yogg has in spades.
@@OmegaGamer04 Yeah but we're talking about Yog playing at a disadvantage against a creature that is already heavily resistant to it, that is ALSO controlled by one of the most powerful artifacts ever made in the warcraft universe (Helm of Domination), I don't think Yogg had a whole lot of sway at that point. If he did, why would he need to use Loken and Ulduar instead of the Lich King himself?
@@viysnjor4811 I think you guys give too much credit to how powerful an Old God is. Old Gods when they know they are outmatched in any category they play around it and influence it. He influenced us , the players/adventurers , when we fought him off. Yogg-Saron clearly tried to dominate Arthas but found someone much more powerful than him already in controll of him. All Old Gods play it this way. Old Gods when they are outmatched play around the one they cant defeat. Y'shaarj is the same , C'thun is the same , Xalatath is the same , Yogg-Saron is the same , N'zoth is the same. Xalatath is too weakened , it could barely influence one player and she couldnt even break free of the weakest of the Old Gods.
It all does make a lot of sense now, but really, I still think it was badly executed by Blizzard during Legion/BFA.
We should've heard a little bit about the Jailer during these expansions so that it wouldn't seem that Blizzard pulled the Jailer out of their asses in Shadowlands, which they likely did.
Personally, it's my n°1 issue with WoW's Lore. Every expansion brings its load of notions Blizzard just came up with and which they're trying to make us believe were teased and right under our noses for the past 10+ years, by way of retcons.
Right. Cause no f**king way that was intended all the way long. C'mon now Blizz. You analyzed well the existing lore and came up with a (some could say) very smart retcon to develop things further. In the process though you ruined one of the best and most beloved piece of lore/arc of WoW. The "tragedy" we could call it of Arthas and the LK. Congratz. I guess you ran out of brilliant writers able to come up with NEW, and not recycled ideas.
That's a powerful thought tbh. Dude spent his life doing all he could for Lordaron. Only to be consumed by the blade and the corruption. Then to awaken from the nightmare knowing you set it loose. That's heavy.
I love the story, it feels so “Greek” like one of those great tragic ironies where they become what they sought from the start to avoid being. Also, the cautionary tale of those who start making “for the greater good” sacrifices on behalf of others. Good intentions, without constraint, can have devastating consequences.
The lore is more and more becoming like the gameplay: slapping one aspect on top of another and on top of another. A complex interplay of events must organically make sense, just like in Warcraft 3, not give a sense of convolutedness, just like the gameplay systems. Here they are retconning minor and major details, left and right. It's sad to see my childhood love, Warcraft, fall, thanks to the wrong hands it was left in. :(
Fall? I'm actually enjoying the complexity of this :D The Lich King has always been my favourite character. That there is more to it than Ner'zhul being trapped in a helmet, that sounds intriguing!
I really don't see a lot of this as "retconning" so much as an expansion of the lore we knew. The old lore had a lot of mysteries, and a lot of things we unexplained. Now we're seeing the bigger picture. Blizzard obviously has to build off of what they have, because they need to add more content to keep the game going. Change isn't always bad. :)
"You exist on his whim alone. You imagine yourself to be free. But you will always be his instrument."
Also Sylvanas: "I will set us all free!"
I sense a plot twist. If anyone has the guile to overwhelm the Jailer, it's her. She is a strategist after all.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Sylvanas thinks way too far ahead to just be the next Gul'dan.
Damn never knew she would play such a big part in the lore, I remember when I had killed her in campaign easily, she was just a banshee that ain't do nothing low damage and a handful of support spells after being killed, now she is...this dayum!!
Exactly. She's just defeated him. There is absolutely no reason for her to lie to him in that moment.
I would not be surprised if Sylvanas by her own actions, did all this in the end to save herself and Azeroth.
Sylvanas knowing this was the only way to release us from the Jailers grasp.
This would certainly give the nuance to what she did. Would make her situation very different then a Garrosh 2.0.
Blizzard watching this video: "write that down!"
@BellularGaming Amazing video sir, a sound piece of production on all accords. However, have you thought about the fact that Arthas reaches out for /grasps for the Helm of Domination when he is slain in ICC, Wrath of the Lich King? Before he lies cold, just after Frostmourne is shattered, he is down on his knees and is reaching out towards the helm. This speaks of another narrative, in which he wanted to stay in power with the helm on top of his head.
Jailer: Warcraft 3, Wrath of Lichking, Legion, Battle for Azeroth.....Was Merely a Setback!
So now "The Dark Lord" that Mal'Ganis was talking about from Warcraft 3 was The Jailor and not Ner'Zhul.Filling the gaps I guess.
Dude, your videos are so detailed, amazing work! Thank you to you and all your team for all your hard work on this
The biggest question I had at the end is, if Arthas was an agent of the Maw and the Jailor, why did he make Icecrown Citadel out of Saronite, the blood of Yogg Saron? Doesn’t fit
Why not? Saronite is incredibly strong and in abundance in Northrend, and its mind-bending properties don't bother the undead
Viy Snjór eh, I don’t really buy into that. Seems like a very specific choice, lore-wise, to use Saronite. Especially if the jailers goal is to get rid of the void.
Are we ever told he knew that Saronite was infused with the blood of Yogg-Saron? Could he not just have looked at the metal and thought "Damn that's some strong, badass metal" and decided to use it?
Or more likely: Blizzard hadn't thought of The Jailor at that point, which inevitably leads to small plotholes such as these.
@@tjbrody Personally I like that better than "the old gods did it" for the umpteenth time.
Because there was no Jailer at that time. Most of the previous lore has been retconned to suit how Blizzard wants to expand the lore.
The highlight of my day is when Bellular posts lore videos.
The biggest Lore revelation to date is that Bell is the TRUE Loremaster. All the other contenders have been forced to salute and fade away.
What an amazing video! Can't wait for part 2!
For all we know the mental strain Bolvar endured to stay afloat and not give in to the darkness, could have been why he looked so weak against Sylvanas. Add to the equation her increase in power and we have that fight summed up. I feel Sylvanas is playing games with the jailer and sooner or later she's going to turn against the him and get revenge. This new lore has me intrigued, because it ties many loose ends (in a blizz fashion lol).
I would love to see that "You imagine yourself to be free" line to be some sort of mechanic or twist in the fight against the Jailer raid encounter. Imagine the Jailer taking control of the death knight players, empowering them and using them against the raid, since they "exist by his whim alone". That would be such a cool twist. Maybe sort of like a mythic only mechanic. If there aren't any DKs, he just transforms people in to DKs or something.
Dude, great idea!!
I know that you put a lot of love and effort in this video, but I am so not sold that this is all lore that meshes together. Blizz is simply not that smart. Starting around Burning Crusade, Warcraft lore has been riddled with contradictions resulting from the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. The Arthas novel did everything to convince us that Arthas was the dominant mind; then WotLK immediately contradicts it. Years and years of this has made me not care anymore. What's the point in liking any story point when Blizz will just invalidate it later with some contrived "plot twist", the unpredictability of which is contingent only on its sheer contrivance?
Good point. I have the same feeling.... one of the main reasons i stopped playing the game.. the story became really crappy.
@@HladniSjeverniVjetar imagine playing a game cause of the story
@Fotachi george constantin They couldn't have told you regardless cause they just came up with this shit. But man, you cannot keep retconning stuff continuously . Once is already dangerous but fine, you'd probably welcome the plot twist. Twice is getting already stale. More than that and the whole lore becomes a joke and by now Blizz has done it countless times.
@Fotachi george constantin Yea
and now imagine, that there are actually books out there, that describe ho nerzhul was captured by kil jaeden and made his pawn once more.
I guarantee you, that they have not thought this far ahead at any point. This shadowlands storyline came to their minds some time during legion maybe and they delved deep into their archives to figure out how to make it seem like they had this grandious plan all along. but no, no they hadn't.
The storyline is a steaming mess if you have followed it. They simply keep piling bigger villains on what they called the Greatest Villains on and on like a Pyramid with no top and retconning and recycling crap from few years ago. I am sure in 5 years they will be like oh and did you know we lied to you that Jailor had no Boss, he does he is even more mundane, insipid and recycled with the same voice actor and lame lines?
Someone sounds bitter.
What do you expect them to do then? Rename the game to world of lovecraft where everyone becomes friends and the world becomes peaceful. The gameplay will be /hugging each other
@@Stormchoirs if that makes you feel better. BTW i left 4 years ago. But m not beyond returning if things improve. I have kept up with the lore and yes its been a crap sandwich.
@@PeepoFrog Do better? Not recycle beaten dead horses? Not change canon for almost every important past character? Be more consistent? IDK its crazy ambitious i know, something they have never done before . :)
If you are happy with it i am happy for you, l am not and so i commented.
@@sushanalone come up with an idea then. The one thing i think is boring and repetetive about the expansions is that the outcome is always the same we ALWAYS win even how strong the "threat" is. How about we lose for once and continue an expansion after the enemy took over.
but when arthas puts on the helm in the final wc3 cinematic, he/they say "now we are one" wich in my opinion states that ner zhul was still somwhere in the lich kings mind, since arthas didnt knew he was mind controlled until his final moments.
id like to see us free arthas from the maw and maybe beat nerzhul as a raidboss
In the book, which is canon, arthas is inside his mind with the young version of himself and Nerzhul. When he finally kills the good side of himself, nerzhul applauds him, only for arthas to kill him too, stating that there is no WE, that only he is the Lich King.
This is literally the best video you've ever done. Well done, Bellular and Team! I love these deep lore videos from you man, it's so cool.
Wait.
"The moment he donned the Lich King's helm , the holy Light had abandoned him "
But it doesn't abandon Anduin, even though he's in the Maw.
Maybe the Jailor wants Anduin because he'd then have a Light wielding DK on his hands.
That would be scary powerful and it would also set Anduin on the path of wielding both, the Light and the Dark.
All I can think of whenever the Lich King comes up as a possible re-occurring character is how much I despise the fact that they changed the voice actor for WoW. My wish is they re-employ the original Arthas voice actor. He was so amazing.
👏🙏🔥
facts
Yes, this very much!
Could it be Arthas talking to Sylvanis when he states " You always imagine yourself to be free."????
Maybe not in specific, as his echo wouldn’t know her new allegiances. But she’s undead. She’s a creation of the Jailer’s power. And now she’s his direct instrument. So in a way, probably so.
He's talking to the DK player. Basically telling them "You're still a tool of Bolvar." I think Bellular is reading WAAAAAY too much into that. It's Arthas talking to the player, not Arthas thinking out loud to himself.
@@Kylora2112 I think you’re right that he’s talking to the player, but that’s essentially what Bell said, if I understood him right. Warning you you’re still a tool of the Jailer even if we didn’t know who that was yet.
He is talkign to the DK player, even though we have broken free from Arthas and killed him and have worked with Bulvor we are still ultimitly a tool of the Jaliors end game.
Holy shit. Bolvar just suddenly reached a whole new level of badass
This was one of your better videos @BellularGaming; this style of investigative reporting into Warcraft lore was why I had originally subscribed. A bit plagued by redundancy but otherwise quite good. I like the editing in of actual game cinematic footage as evidence. I look forward to future videos of this style.
"Without its master's command, the scourge will become an even greater threat. Control must be maintained. There must always be.... A Lich King" the image of King Terrenes says this at the Fall of the LK. Using this video in context, it makes me wonder if Terrenes was being used as, essentially, a propaganda piece to ensure that the helm would be worn, as the jailer cannot interact directly with Azeroth. He simply couldnt have accounted for Bolvar being so strong, spiritually.
You thought it was Arthas but it was actually me, Dio, all along!
Wriiiiii
NANI!!!
YESYESYESYES
XD
Lazy writing just destroyed one of best stories of the game
When you perfectly manipulate someone, they will never realize that they were manipulated, and will truly believe they did what they did, because they wanted to, because they chose to do it.
Yep just like people are manipulated to think that this silly explanation that 'Arthas did not know' makes sense. By that logic nothing can be real and everything could be being or had been manipulated and writers can apply it to any story or character, leaving a self contradicting and unsolvable senseless mess. How do you know who is not manipulated? Is the Jailor manipulated or are the bad writers manipulating us into believing this garbage?
@@sushanalone Woosh
@@sushanalone Blizz can make up whatever the hell they want lol they made the games. Its not exactly thrown in your face either, at least it's built up on.
@Richard Ashendale It isn't, because the jailer could have always been the one whispering to arthas through frostmourne and or controlling arthas through the helm, just because they may not have thought of that yet, doesn't mean they can't weave it in.
@Richard Ashendale I don't see how it affects his character at all, the lich king and arthas are 2 different beings, uther literally says he is not in full control in WotLK.
Chris Metzen knew how to write a good story with godly ending....
this is lore is retconned u know that right? shadowlands had no more lore 5 years ago then pandaria did before mop.
I'm not sure throwing away the Old Gods into a ditch only to be one upped by a Johnny-come-lately was part of Metzen's lore. Ice Crown Citadel is made of Saronite, it was always heavily implied that the Old Gods were behind the Lich King's plotting during Wrath. It was implied that Sylvanas' corrupted and twisted vision of death when she threw herself off the top of ICC was influenced by the Saronite. So twisted was her vision it drove her mad.
Then again, he's not god too. Remember, WoD was made under Chris's rule
@@ZamboniElite Fun fact: if you dive within the lake south to the Shadow Vault in Icecrown, you'll find some of Yogg's tentacles coming from underneath the ground lol
@@hmthisisit Thats interesting, id like to see that, that would then mean that maybe the original intent could had been that yogg is involved. Saronite being the blood of yogg-saron(nite)
@BellularGaming Lot's of good stuff here. Really appreciate anyone that takes a deep look at the lore.
So a question that came to mind while watching this: What are the chances that Sylvannas is going to be portrayed as a person performing a long con here?
Since Warcraft 3, we have never really known what is going on in her head, and her history is rife with betrayal after betrayal. But her driving force was always her desire for revenge: Revenge against Arthas for killing her and making her a "monster," revenge against the living for despising and hating her, etc. Now, you point to evidence that suggests that Arthas may not be the real thing she should have been angry at. It was all a part of The Jailor's desire to consume Azeroth that ultimately led to her home's destruction, her death, and the consequential animosity that followed . It seems odd to me, but not impossible, that she would wholeheartedly support The Jailor, especially if she is aware that the evils of the Scourge and the Lich King were all his plans (hence the speech on top of Icecrown). Given her history of betrayals, and how Blizzard apparently doesn't want us to ever know what she is really about, do you think they may try to twist her back into a "good guy," like Illidan was in Legion? (As an aside, I never figured him a bad guy, since I played a ton of Warcraft 3, and the campaign suggested to me that he had no issue with Azeroth, but then BC came along and it seemed they abandoned that idea . . . and there's a lot more to go through here, but not for this comment).
I know there are other signs that pointed to her involvement with the Jailor back in Legion, and even before at the end of WotLK. And sure, they could have been building her into Garrosh 2.0 (just with less of a good reason to do so)(i.e., rebuilding the Orchish Horde into something great vs killing everyone because spite). But after she pitched herself off the edge of Icecrown and was introduced to the Valkyr and the Jailor, I am wondering if she found a new reason to live. The same reason that she had after she was killed by Arthas: Revenge.
Interested in everyone's thoughts on this if it gets around.
Thanks again for the video and the insights.
We already know why Bolvar was able to resist, well ok if you completed the Ice Crown Citadel where we literally hear Bolvar screaming as he is tortured. Then we are directly told the darkness couldn't break him, and he was given the mantle of the lich king.
So now their retconing chronical. What a fractured lore, when frostmourne was shattered he got his soul back. The lion before the lambs speech shows that he knew he needed to be defeated, with the helm on still.
Well i'm sorry but I very much dislike these ''not ret-con'' to the Lich King's and Arthas' stories. The way they ''not ret-conned'' the origin of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination is very frustrating.
Edit: the echoes of Arthas were referring to Yogg Saron. Everyone knows that.. Icecrown Citadel literally sits on a mountain of saronite.
I agree. I enjoyed the story much more, when it REALLY was the fallen prince being dominant and nobody else. It was a great saga of the fall of a virtuous man into villainy.
I really dislike the way the lore are going. These ret-cons are destroying such a good lore.
Agreed. They're trying to pretend they had this storyline planned for years and seem smart in the process. They new lore is not popular so they're tying it back into the most popular expansion in hopes of driving interest.
@@rumblepuss8848 This. They can't write for shit these days, so they're trying to score some nostalgia points by writing new story that's connected to the story from older, better expansions.
I disagree. I think that this ret-con fits perfectly on previous lore holes, and actually changes nothing in classic game + expac that we love.
" You imagine yourself be free, but you will always be his instrument" - this applys also to the wow players beeing blizzard instruments :D
Or Silvanas already know that they all are NPC's in mmo game. Like Deathpool know he is comic/move character and speaks directly to reader/audience from time to time.
God, the sound design and production on the Lich King's voice is so fuckin good.
best lore video i have seen. thx dude
If Sylvanas was ever played by an actor in a WoW-movie, I can´t imagine anyone else than Jodie Foster.
Because the best way to impress the hottie with the ageless body is to try to kill people?
Jesus Christ no, she's too old and not nearly hot enough
@@damien2729 Sylvanas is an elf. She was probably like 1000 when she died. She's not that old in elf years.
...Uma Thurman (Kill Bill)
Make It Helen Hunt instead, she already looks the part
If this is true, it could be an interesting plot point for Sylvanas to discover this link. If she realised the jailer had a major hand in turning her into a banshee, it'd definitely mess with their agreement they have going on.
I think she knows. She's using the Jailer for power and to gain knowledge. She's refocused her hatred of Arthas, and I believe will turn against the Jailer at a critical moment. She's playing a very long game.
to those asking why Sylvannas went to the maw when she died but then got better.
Frostmourne tore Sylvannas' soul apart and left nothing but a specter under the will of Arthas.
when Arthas started losing his strength due to the tie between the lich king and him being severed the banshee Sylvannas was able to act of her own accord along with many untethered undead to which the more intelligent undead became her new same situation followers. she fully believed Arthas was the sole contributor to her torment and went to as long of a length she could get to kill him.
when Arthas fell she felt like she had no reason to go on, threw herself off Icecrown and got some saronite spikers for her trouble, she clearly didnt like the vision of the maw she was given as her soul was obliterated when she was torn from her body by the blade, she would have been "touched by the maw" due to Frostmourne's collateral damage and obviously the jailer gave her a little vision what WOULD have been in store and what she can change it to if she cooperates.
obviously the selfish Sylvannas went for option B, revived by the Val'kyr she set out on her warpath of achieving her "perfect death" fulfilling every goal she needed to free the jailer.
i believe she still see's that her own death was all Arthas but i think she's getting to the point where she knows it was the jailer, and what better way for the spiteful banshee queen to enact vengeance than to bring the jailer to Azeroth only to tear him apart for her being the monster that she is.
after all she is a VERY selfish person, as the nightelf in the burning of Teldrassil put it. "you have made life your enemy" and of course this would piss off the very selfish banshee queen.
so what better way to spite both the living and the dead?
destroy both.
im calling it now she will try and destroy both the living and the shadowlands in one sweep, purely out of spite.
Find it very ironic that Sylvannas defining trait among the lore up to WotLK was her defiance of the Lich King's will and now she ends up working for him again seemingly of her own will this time.
truth is I, random youtube commenter, am the lich king
No, I am the Lich King
I knew it, I KNEW IT ALL ALONG
just because your have corpses in your house that you move with sticks and strings, doesn't make you the lich king. go clean up that mess.
You are the Lich King, but I...
I AM ALPHARIUS!
I used to be a Lich King like you, but then my subscription run out.
which reminds me of who told vol'jin to name sylvanas warchief
I would be really upset if this is true. Part of what made Arthas and the Litchking so great was his agency. The fact all the choices he made where his own and he was in control. To take that away and just make it "Arthas was a helpless victim of the jailer." Would suck.
I mean it was pretty obvious he lost self agency shortly after he took up the blade. Do you really think he caused the fall of Lordaeron for funsies? No, it was presumed he was under control of Ner'Zhul up until his death and it was revealed that Arthas was actively fighting against the helm and blades corruption.
What are you talking about? Arthas has been mindcontrolled since losing his soul to Frostmourne.
@@W_W-f8y but the choice to take up frostmorne was his. All frostmorne did was steal his soul what he did next was his choice frostmorne just enabled him to do so. Think of it like being brainwashed and told to rob a store vs just being told for 24 hours your actions will have no consequences and you decide to use that to rob a store. In one situation you have no agency in the other you do. In the other situation the choices made are still your own.
Daddy Dagoth his dying words are literally "father is it over....?" That doesn't sound like a person who's in control to me
i knew it. i was talking a few months ago about how the lore coming out and pieces of lore that were all the way from burning that seemed to say the tag "the jailor was here". great work Bellar.
The moment before Arthas talks to his fathers spirit seems a lot more important now. His eyes snap open he, he looks straight up and inhales sharply. Very much like someone who had just awoken from a nightmare.
Am I tho only one who noticed the irony that one of the Lich King's titles was "The Jailor of the Damned", and a being called "The Jailor" was actually in control?
Bellular: "Who is the Lich King?"
Viewers: "ARTHAAAASSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!"
Bellular: "Well yes, but actually no."
I have a weird feeling that Sylvanas is playing a very deep and dangerous game, that she truly seeks and end to the Jailer. She is working for the Jailer in the same way Azshara was working for N'Zoth - but kept seeking ways to undermine the Old God. Seems pretty likely that Sylvanas will use the Jailer until the moment she can turn against him... and in a sense, redeem herself.
she's acting as a blood hound for the Alliance and Horde, sniffing out bad guys for them to go kill
Well, to be honest, it would be awesome to see what blizzard has in mind for this story arc. It could have some pretty bad consequences for her and her followers though, much like how azshara and all her followers got warped and turned into the naga race we see running around. SO maybe sylvanas has a similar fate, and any of the undeads that followed her and supported her turn into some sort of mutation of an undeads thingy.
I'm not so sure. Sylvanas according to the new cinematic seems very invested in the Jailer's victory, on a very deep emotional basis.
That was quite the roller coaster and a lot of very powerful info. Great vid sir
Well done, very well put together. Comprehensive, conclusive, makes sense.
So when Malganis asks Arthas "What does the DARK LORD tell you?" is that the Jailor he refers to as the Dark Lord??
i was straight up thinking that, recently i was listening to the old warcraft 3 dialogue and they often refer to the lich king in ways like that, dark lord, but its particularily cool since its often malganis and kelthuzad, people we now know side with the jailer
@@ShadeStormXD Im glad i wasnt the only one thinking of that :) - Since the dreadlords have been plotting for such a long time, it would make very much sense!
No clearly he meant Voldemort
yeah holy crap he could have said what does the Lich King tell you but instead he said Dark Lord
now that line makes even more sense for Shadowland
that might have been a sneaky slip up from Malganis damn those Dreadlord's
since the Dreadlords have been exposed as the spies of Death aka the Jailor Zovall, it would seem that he is indeed "The Dark Lord" of Azeroth.
19:57 is wrong. Icecrown Citadel was built *after* the events of Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, by which point The Lich King (now Arthas) had seceded from The Burning Legion. Furthermore by that point the remaining nathrezim on Azeroth had sided or Infiltrated The Forsaken and The Scarlet Crusade, so they still could not have directed the construction of ICC
Ehh I think you're a bit off here bud. I believe Bellular on this one after doing research myself.
Chronicle 3, I believe, states that ICC was built by the Nathrezim, presumably while Arthas was dormant on the throne.
As a mirror of Torghast in the shattered sky above, this ties some things together really nicely.
Narius at the very least a symbolic connection and visual metaphor.Possibly a physical and magical ritual to anchor Torghast and the Maw closer to Azeroth.
It's obviously the Jailer's influence that's behind the citadel's architecture, as it's a straight- up copy of Torgast. Since Arthas was unaware of the Jailer, he probably thought the design was his own idea.
I really hope we get a cinematic that shows how the jailer “unified” with Sylvanna or how that even started
recently re-read the arthas novel. if anyone doubts that they plan THIS FAR AHEAD, just go to the epilogue. they literally describe all the way thru legion in startling detail. it has all been leading up to this. the book even mentions things that allude to the jailer, his influence, the reality of ner'zhul...................
Don't forget the Arthas book where they talk about what was going on inside the helm during the Lich Kings hibernation. There were multiple presences inside.
World of Retcons: Shadowlands
Retcon*
@@ruskyalmond1977 How is it retconning when we never knew the full purpose of the Lich King back in the day.
@@MintyCoffee The purpose of the lich king was originally a WMD of the Burning Legion in wc3.
@@zszyTW Not really, the Lich King always had his own machinations and desires, the legion used him as a means to an end, but beyond that we never knew the true extent of his role, not even in wrath. We knew at most that he controlled the leagues of undead, and kept most of them back, we never really knew why, where that power originated from, or truly from who.
Retlands
I’ve always been under the impression Arthas was fighting the helm, holding it back and that we were not sure what that entity really was. I like how the lore is being expanded on now.
He kept IT under control too ... That why he did not invaded the world
..
notoriousbig3k yeah exactly that.
Maybe like item sets just the helmet wasn't enough for the Jailer to get enough control over the wielder, it also needed Frostmourne, Bolvar hasn't used both of those items, just the helmet so far, if he had Frostmourne or the Blades of the fallen Prince at the same time it could have been the edge that The Jailer needed to overcome his will.
This is getting me super hype for Shadowlands. This all makes a ton of sense. I've been confused by Arthas's final words for years and years. Thanks for tying all these ends together!
This is why I love your lore videos and why i subbed a long time ago. Hats off to you and the team👍🏽👍🏽