There is one thing that eases the transition from old to new though. The fact that the lich king could instruct his underling to slay one of his jailors, to that dreadlords surprise, without repurcussions from the legion at that point, indicates the jailors where not as in control as they should be of they where actual jailors.
Sylvanis has a plan to break the cycle of death and the maw. look at what she talks about in the shadow lands cinematic " a monument to OUR Suffering" " This world is a prison and i will set US all free " sounds like she wants to take the place of the jailer and prevent souls from going to the maw like she did when she died. i dunno but looking into what her goals are and how she talks might be something worth wile :P
I think the Old Gods are agents of death instead of void. Think about it. The curse of flesh makes titan creations mortal. That does nothing to help or hinder void corruption in any way. So why do it? Simple. It gives the Jailer the ability to attack the cosmos for anima while passing the buck to the Void Lords. Remember what the book in Revendreth said: The void are so preoccupied by their infinite truths that they are blind to the lies that the Dreadlords sow in their midst. I think the lies being sown are the old gods "origins". Furthermore, I think the old gods are at the top of Torghast waiting for enough Anima to respawn. Blizzard said they plan to explore what happened to old gods after they died at some point in the future. They never said it was the void. We assumed that because of chronicle and chronicle is from a titan viewpoint that can't be completely relied upon as 100% accurate or truthful.
Because none of this is real, we still have the gift of N’Zoth. He never died, we are in his reality he twisted as he wants us to see it. The Jailer will prove to be fake. We put N’Zoth in place of the world soul, that’s why so much story is centered around the world soul. Black Empire xpac inc.
@@ryandunlap6496 Better yet. No WoW expansion is real because C'thun won in Vanilla and we've been playing a void induced hallucination ever since. See. I can pull made up plot points out of my ass too.
@KpEMuKoBcu 5 expansions after we discover that the entire game was actually being played on a computer in a video game on a computer in a video game on a computer in a video game, etc, because someone at Blizzard really liked Ultima... a lot.
I think one of the most underrated things you do Bell is find these links between topics, but then always look deeper and work out if they could be from older ideas Blizz had. Where I think most people would make those links and draw huge conclusions from it. I really respect that.
most people skip cutscenes and quest text and then when major things happen they are like "wow i dont understand this is dumb and retconned!!" fucking morons
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat. I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all. For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
This series has impacted how I feel about Arthas and the Lich King as a whole. It's almost a dramatic irony that the fate of the Lich King is to be an empty vessel for something greater, much like the fate of those associated most closely with it. Ner'zhul could have had enormous presence in Warlords, but he ended up being a 5 man Boss. The disrespect.
I'm pretty sure Ner'zhul's fate in WOD was intentionally anticlimactic in order to create a bigger contrast between alternate Draenor and og Draenor. I mean, Helfire Peninsula was turned from a starter zone wasteland into a lush, endgame zone jungle. And while I see how it may have seemed as a perfect opporutnity to expand on characters like Ner'zhul, it also makes sense as a "Wow, this character was originally pivotal part of the lore, but in this universe, he is just a 5 man boss" kinda moment. I actually really like those kinds of juxtapositions.
they are gonna tie in Yogg in this some how... thanks to the quote that they keep using.. plus is wow, there always has to be an oldgod involved cuz the writers cant help it.
@@Rizerr96 would kinda make sense since that one dread Lord did day all cosmic forces have been infiltrated and aren't we mortals falling under the Titans in the whole cosmic forces?
The lore suffers because they never had an idea of the beginning or the end and money, of course. J. R. R. Tolkien has LoTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion etc. George R. R. Martin also has so much completed backstory for every character that he will always have a direction, even if it changes a little. I love WoW lore a lot, but I wish they took it seriously because anything that has to be retconned can easily make me lose excitement.
Exactly. I find the retconning of the Dreadlords absolutely stupid. Working in secret for the Jailor? They were so clueless to the point of having no idea of the Legion's downfall at Mount Hyjal for months. This shows that the Dreadlords were cut off from the Legion's power. If they were working for this Jailor, the Jailor would have told them about Hyjal.
While GRRM has been said to have laid foundations and backbone for his characters and world, he has been explicitly stated to flrsh this out as he goes. It's part of why his books take time, he keeps rewriting due to new elements being introduced. And Tolkien, oh dear fantastic Tolkien, he started with only the Hobbit. It underwent several rewrites as LotR was conceived, and lore did change there to properly accomodate the budding trilogy. Reimaginings of Lore happen all the time in a lot of different stories, excepting if they've been roadmapped and planned to prevent it. It's normal, just much, much easier discovered in things such as games, especially in internet times. Having differing writers doesn't help either. With all of that said, no matter how you do either of these things, it's very much about how you handle it, and Blizzard are notorious for having inconsistent lore. They're not mega good storywriters, as seen by several expansions leaving people not caring for the story.
Here is how it fits together. Yoggsaron claims to be the God of Death, this is because of his ability to consume Anima and utilize it's Power. He knows about the Shadowlands. His Plan was to connect with Azeroths Soul and gain Access to other cosmic Realms using her Power. Old Gods gather Power in different ways. Yogg feeds off Souls. Yarsharaj feeds off emotions, and so on. Icecrown was made out of Saronite because it's compatible or even filled with the powers of death. Its a good catalyst. To strengthen the link from the Jailer to his Artifacts on Azeroth.
@@schroecat1 no he doesnt lol. this isnt anything to do with "lore" either. its a quote from a boss fight. he says "bow down before the god of death" he never says that he is the god of death. while it is likely him, we cant know for sure.
@@sneaksies8931 what do you mean he doesn't ??? At the very start of the fight he says "I am the lucid dream, (I am) the monster in your nightmare, (I am) the fiend with a thousand faces, BOW DOWN BEFORE (me) THE GOD OF DEATH." Like, what kind of denial are you trying to pull out ? All the evidence are there x)
I seem to recall there being a lot of antagonism in Warcraft 3 between the Dreadlords and Team Nerzhul with Arthas and Kel-Thuzad. Shouldnt really have been like that, if they re ultimately all agents of the Jailer.
One explanation could be that not all Dread Lords are united in purpose. Not all of them are behind a single conspiracy. That would be weird. They are a race of people. Why would they be the only ones in the whole WoW to have only one singular faction where all individuals are perfect servants of one single leader? I think it makes sense that those Dread Lords in W3 completely converted to Legion and thus they were not pretending their allegiance to it. It would even explain why they were suspicious of the Lich King. But...I have severe doubts that this is the idea Blizz is using now.
@Sli'yanka also remember that Arthas and Kel'Thuzad thought that the dreadlords were demons and entirely associated with the Legion. Ner'Zhul himself was not aware of the huge role the dreadlords had had in his appointment as the lich king. If Sargeras and the Burning Legion were all fooled, do you really think that little pathetic human Arthas and Kel'Thuzad would have any idea?
We keep hearing talks about an Arthas movie. I really hope they decide on something like an HBO mini series so we can do his story more justice than what could fit into a 2.5 hour movie. There's just too much important stuff there that I hope they don't cut out or try to combine things, like combining the assaults on Silvermoon and Dalaran or something.
Maybe Yogg’s scrying into the shadowlands allowed him to absorb some amount of anima which was concentrated in his blood making it the ideal building material for ICC as a sort of beacon to the maw. Edit: also Yogg is capable of inducing visions as seen in Ulduar. He could have shown his highest level nerubians visions of Maldraxxus as a blueprint for their architecture. The reason he would copy their structures would be to boast his abilities.
Another point. We have no idea in lore when exactly the House of Plagues fell, but from the looks of it in-game, it seemed fairly recently, maybe months earlier or something. Now I remember someone from Blizzard saying that time doesn’t necessarily work differently in the Shadowlands, so I don’t think that time-traveling dreadlords were involved. And in any case, if the Plague of Undeath was originally created by the House of Plagues, knowingly or otherwise, why destroy your source? They would’ve been likely using Maldraxxis-native ingredients that you couldn’t find on Azeroth in any case. Personally, I think that even if Maldraxxis was the source of the Plague, I don’t think the fall of the House of Plagues had anything to do with its creation. I think that Ner’zhul, under the Jailer’s influence, merely saw visions into the Shadowlands like Bolvar did, got glimpses of the House of Plagues at work, and used it as his inspiration for creating his own Plague, maybe stealing some death-magicks from Maldraxxis to make it work properly. And besides, if you look at the effects that the House of Plagues’ fall had on its former inhabitants, it looks like most of them were either killed outright, driven mad or turned into weird hybrid slime monsters. It doesn’t bare the traditional hallmarks of the Plague of Undeath, which makes me think it’s something else entirely
@@JPLOWMAN2 Wasn’t the House of Plagues still around when Drakka died and started her rogue training? Idk really. If there’s no timey wimey stuff happening then it seems that it was destroyed during her time in Maldraxxus.
I like that Yogg was able to spy on the shadowlands but I think the powers of the Warcraft universe all had knowledge of each other’s realms. It could be that for the void it was meant to taunt the realm of death by copying it and using in a mortal realm. As to why Arthas used saronite it could’ve been his way of lessening the jailers control over him. So he’d be able to in a subconscious way resist.
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat. I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all. For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
Its funny that from a lore perspective we talk about how "this was the plan all along" and "so and so was scheming this whole time all the way back since expansion xyz." But in the end, Bliz (while they have a general sense of a heading for the future) really didnt have anything of this planned out going back all the way to BC. They are very talented and incorporate past plot threads into new stories like it was like that the whole time.... but i find it fun and interesting when we talk about things like as if it was the reason and story the whole time :)
makes it more interesting for players too because the player just doesn't know everything and we can speculate. In a detective movie, the viewer often knows who the culprit is long before the detective does. With WoW that is not the case for many things. On the other hand, this kind of style means a lot of retcons because they change things that already happened to make it fit better with the new story they want to tell.
You say they are very talented incorporating past plot threads while they simply rewrite a ton of lore making anything that happened (and will happen) irrelevant as they have and will retcon anything.
I mean this goes for almost every video game in history. At most a developer might have dreams of setting up a trilogy or something, but plot threads are rarely thought out completely in advance even in those situations. They quite literally make it up as they go, incorporating elements they've wanted from the start while often coming up with new ones to tie everything together for the sake of cohesion.
@@Eldair I can't think of a story in history where, if added to enough, doesn't have some sort of retconning. A lack of retconning doesn't make story tellers talented, neither does rewriting.
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat. I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all. For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
@All_lives_matter, reject fabricated racism by govt so your the dangerous magic kinda dude lol. Remember almost every npc in wow has an ability and a specific name. I love the nightborne. Everything they do is so coolll.
8:25 = Simple plot hole fix... In biology, there's a recognized concept of "convergent evolution" where two dissimilar species evolve to inhabit the same niche. This has also been seen with ancient architecture when looking at Central American societies and their focus on step-pyramids and the pyramids found in Egypt. Other examples would be the farming techniques developed through Vietnam and Florida natives. Just because two species have similar architecture does NOT necessarily make one a derivative IE: Rome from Greece.
@@skyreach669 CONvergent, not divergent... slightly different definitions there. What, you think biology doesn't apply to WOW? History obviously does, otherwise they wouldn't have archeology. Alchemy requires specific ingredients cooked together at a specific ratio and you don't need to be a magic user to do so... real world equivalent of basic chemistry (science+math). If science and math can be applied and history is a known profession then historical science could easily be seen as a possibility. Hence "CONvergent Evolution" could be applied to architecture in WOW just as it is in RL.
@@JKLauderdale If there is one thing I have learned over my 15 years of playing WoW.... it is that logic rarely (if ever) fits in. It seems like Blizz tries so much harder to "explain off" rather than use logic. :p
@@tuonthenoble9012 Oh, I 100% agree - Logic doesn't really apply when dealing with any sorta fantasy setting, much less one that's been retconned since WC3. I was simply bored when reading the prior comment, waiting to give my brother a drive to pick up his car from the garage :)
@@skyreach669 it kind of is already there, boars in Azeroth and Draenor, Kodos and furry Kodos in Nagrand, Rylaks and Chimeras etc. Beasts inhabiting the same biological niche without any genetic connections.
The building architecture of the nerubians is not their own, they just borrowed it from what was left of the tol'vir civilization that they invaded there when they split from the aqir because of the trolls.
Damn you guys and your breakdowns of lore and speculations! This is by far one of my most favorite videos! Very much thankful for your dedication and passion about such projects, keep it up! Wish this well of content never dry out!
Shadowlands : Sylvanass has allied with the jailer and you must stop her by joining one of four covenants BFA : the horde and the alliance , the two most powerful factions of Azeroth have engaged in one of the most catastrophic wars in the history of Warcraft... So you one of the most powerful adventurers and champion of Azeroth should go and .... Help the turtle people make triangles!
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat. I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all. For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
This is my opinion. I believe 100% that you cannot count out Yogg and N'zoth from this expansion. I agree with you that Yogg may have seen something when he touched the roots of the world tree. The void has been fighting control for the Shadowlands for awhile now, we do not know how long. Ner'zhul is still alligned to the Dark Star and has always been an agent of the Void. His soul being cast into the helm of domination was part of this Void plan. Now take into account that saronite was used to build Icecrown. This was because it would allow Yogg to tether his essence to thr conduit between life and death for when the heroes defeat the Lich King, Yogg could ascend with his full strength into the Shadowlands to begin the Void war against the undead. We all complained how easy N'zoth fell and I believe this was because he too was to be instrumental in this war and needed to be killed in order for Yogg to redirect N'zoth's soul into thr Shadowlands. If a Void soul were to go to the Shadowlands then it might end up in the Maw and for a being of corruption, the Maw is a major power for such being. I believe we will see that even though the Jailer was using the Burning Legion for his own gain. The Void was one step ahead of him and looking to gauge out one of their long time foes.
feels so underwhelming learning that all the lore and all the actions of legendary baddies were just as peons and not as the madmen they were written as. the fact tha they chase the high cosmic lore causes so many rewrites, rather than just.... making a consistent and well written one from the ground.
hey bellular, wasnt the dreadlords also expermenting with undeath during the war of the ancients too, i rememeber somewere that broxigar and ronin ran into undead in suramar and killed a dreadlord preforming the ritual
I just love the living nerubians. I've been fascinated by them since warcraft 3. The fact that they rebelled against their Old God master just makes them incredibly badass. And I love the fact that they are at the very least neutral towards us. Maybe only because they saw a chance to retake theur kingdom with our help, but they do seem just a lot more individualistic and more "human" than any other Void originating creations. Its mentioned they have friends and other nerubians they care about. They also care about their history. Once you kill Anub'arak you get an item called the Idle Crown of Azjol'nerub. If you turn it in to the Kirin'tor they suggest we should return it to the nerubians when they have a new king. So it is clear that they themselves are tought of and treated quite differently then the mantid or the aqiur. I think that's really awesome.
The only way I can think to blend the saronite used to make ICC into lore is that it's supposed to be in mockery. 'Look at your power and see how it does nothing' type of thing. Its been said that the undead are highly resilient to the powers of the void and we can see that all the greater powers in wow are blindingly arrogant. So the forces of undeath laugh at the power of the old gods?
I feel like there is still opportunity to connect the Jailer and Yogg saron. It is the beast with a thousand "Maws". Sylvanas met the Jailer after being impaled on Saronite. Yogg-Sarons connection to the Nightmare and perhaps the shadowlands.
retcon clean up: Nerzul started the construction, or at least the gathering of resources, mostly seronite mining, after as already void connected learns of yogg and then void lords, ect. Then Arthas by jailers influence simply uses the on hand seronite for his citadel "portal"
I just hope Kel'Thuzad ultimate goal is to save Arthas from the Maw, to save his king who raised him back from the Shadowlands once. I truly believe he was pleased to save Arthas and would prefer him over the Jailer.
Same. Really don't want to perma kill the guy and just have him be another generic evil baddie. Keeping him loyal to Arthas gives him a degree of nuance and motivation rather than just being evil for evil's sake.
@bellulargaming Maybe Yogg Saron was completely unaware of the jailor? Yogg exists in the physical realm on Azeroth, whereas the Jailor physically in the shadowlands. Yogg could have simply presumed he was the god of death because of ignorance to the shadowlands. However, we now understand the Jailor worked in the background of the Lich Kings minds. So it's almost like there were 2 competing forces working to dominate death. Only, the Jailor was the only one of the 2 to be aware of the other. This gave the Jailor the upper hand. The citidal was probably a way to give the Jailor a foothold and control on Azeroth and he probably had it constructed of saronite to know what Yogg was planning, since saronite allows Yogg to whisper into minds. That means the Jailor could listen in, with Yogg being completely unaware. Kind of like the phone line was bugged😂
Thanks so much for your great videos. REALLY enjoy everything you release! The lich king is my personal favorite character in wow. His story runs the entire gauntlet of emotions. Glad to see another expansion devoted to this great character. I look forward to watching all your videos about it. Again, thank you to you and your great team!
I like to think that the line "Father! Is it over?" was originally intended as a connecting point for Yogg'Saron's connection to the Lich King as we know was originally intended. But then Blizzard is changing that to instead be the Jailor's control over the Lich King entity.
Honestly, having killed the LK when he was current, I honestly thought Arthas meant was his reign as a king was over, as his father said no king rules forever before Arthas became evil.
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat. I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all. For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
Well the original plan was clearly to put the Light against the Void, I think the void side of things wound incorporate shadow, death and fell (and the legion would have been an example of fighting fire with fire when it comes to the void corruption) and the light would have been Light (obviously) nature and life. But since they want to go the "Morally grey" way but don't know how to do it they are just creating more and more villains who make barely any sense in retrospect.
Maldraxxis being the origin of scourge archtecture is a hard retcon because it was supposed to be based on Nerubian structures. Also modern should ALWAYS conform to original you shouldn't retcon at all because it cheapens the work as a whole and I stand by that all of the problems started with the draenai retcons and blizzard pulling it out of their butts since.
I prefer to adhere to new lore to be honest. Sometimes old lore can restrict the story that the writers want to tell, and if changing a few things allows them that flexibility, I'm all for it.
@@DanielScutt I liken it to the way the lore is written in Elder Scrolls. Most of the lore for the games is written in books that are all written by various authors. Some of which are unreliable sources. Which I think is really cool, and it makes things a bit more malleable for the writers.
One of Yogg-Saron's titles is Beast of a Thousand Maws, which if you try looking up what some people have pictured death to be an all consuming maw. And then if you think about it for long enough it makes sense that he is the Old god of Death because of how he is visually portrayed.
I love constantly recontextualized lore. I love learning about things that happened behind the scenes that we weren’t previously aware of and unknown character motives. I guess it’s just a byproduct of playing MGS games my whole life.
The one plot thread that I was always curious about I don't think ever made it into the game: Garrosh's reconstruction of Orgrimmar. I recall at the Blizzcon where Cataclysm was unveiled, I believe it was during the lore panel, we were told we've seen the black steel Garrosh rebuilt Orgrimmar with before. So I've always assumed it was from Saronite. Which would have presented all kinds of issues. But then we got the expansion gap book (I think it was Thrall's novel?) where it was just explained that Orgrimmar got structural damage from an elemental fire, and so Gazlowe said he'd rebuild it better than ever.
I think it’s relevant to mention that if you’re in the Shadowmoon Burial Grounds dungeon and die on Ner’Zhul, the portal that leads back to his room says “Enter the Shadowlands”. Which means that Ner’Zhul had knowledge of the Shadowlands, or at least of the power that comes from it before he ever departed Draenor
You can maybe "massage" Icecrown being made of saronite a contributing factor to the sort of overlapping of the planes/thinning of the veil. They could reveal Yogg was called the god of death because of his knowledge of the shadowlands. The Nerubians might have picked up the style from back when they were buddies I guess.
I just love how people are forgetting that the dreadlords tried to kill Arthas in warcraft 3 which would actually destroy the lich king.Just love it.Blizz making story up on the spot and dumbos going with it.
I mean, how do you know there arent some Dreadlords who wished to betray the Jailor and side with sargeras, just like how Lothraxion might actually be siding with the light now (we dont know) - dreadlords could have varying allegiances
@@TheNeysu he is though. Its quite explicitely said in the lore book that bellular covered in part 1. Unless what you mean is Sir denatrius isnt allied with the jailer, that we will see i guess
in the yogg fight when you go inside for kill his mind in the lick king scenario, the lick king is saying : i will break you ...as i broke him!. to bolvar
I'm okay with advancing lore as long as it's done Tastefully. The old Star Wars EU had some Unforgettable stories that expanded on the original story that are in my opinion nearly as memorable as the original. I'm glad blizzard is at least putting in the time and effort to work with the old lore and mold it into shape as opposed to just leaving it there.
They could explain building Icecrown out of Saronite as a means of using Yogg Sarons power to combat the jailers influence over the helm and the scourge. It would also explain his claim as the god of Death, he came to believe he conquered death when his blood was used and his control was exerted over some of the lesser undead as evidenced in those missions in the Icecrown zone.
But remember at the last Blizzcon that Ion basically said that "Chronicle" 1-3 are the history of Warcraft from the Titans perspective and not necessarily the real history. While I think it's a massive mistake on their part to basically tell everyone that they are only putting out these books and not actually considering them as part of the in-game lore, canonically speaking, we still have to understand it as such...for better or worse...in order for it to make any sense. You have to throw out what you think you know from before the end of Legion, because...as Blizzard sees it...the REAL history is now being presented to us. Just would have made more narrative sense for Sylvanas' drastic change during Legion/BFA, if they had given us some kind of clue that she had obviously gotten in touch with the Jailer after Genn broke the lantern. That's the only thing that makes sense, at this point.
@Bellular you did such a great job of addressing both the current lore but also a meta-style look at the mechanical problems with adjusting some of the old lore. Great work, I found this very entertaining. Question though, what is the reason you are pretty sure the helm of domination will get reforged? To repair the barrier between living and dead worlds?
While they changed the backdrop of Arthas' tragic fall, they didn't change the story itself. I always thought that Arthas' story -- being given an unwinnable situation, being abandoned by both his mentor and girlfriend who might have pulled him back from the brink, then becoming the very thing he was fighting against -- was brilliantly done. The refinements to out understanding of what exactly happened don't touch that story, and for that, I am glad. Even if they decide to redeem or condemn him, it will be a continuation of the story, and not a rewrite.
Most likely he will be our Sargeras/Illidan event of Shadowlands... he will be the Jailor of Sovaal as obviously it wouldn't make sense that we can defeat someone even his own brethren can't kill so imprisoned instead.... So later on we will discover Arthas Menethil and he will stay behind in the Shadowlands as his Jailor if we don't see him peering into the living plane and war with the Old Gods/Void Lords and the Naaru and other cosmic forces.... the Lightborne from Yrel and AU Draenor is coming plus we still got the true Lord of the Burning Legion who was in leadership before Sargeras and Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden. Then the demons of the Dark Below who lore wise is neutral demons who war with the Legion who try to convert them.
The whole thing is retconed to hell now. In the original W3 the Dreadlords didn't work for any Jailor and they were even clueless to the Legion downfall from Mount Hyjal. They should have known if they were working for the Jailor. If Ner'Zhul and the Dreadlords worked for the Jailor it doesn't explain why they were at odds and even at war with one another for the whole of W3. Everything is ruined now.
@@brav0wing Ner'Zhul never willingly worked for anyone. The whole story of his spirit being ripped out, tormented, and shoved in a suit of armor still works. Yes, there has been a degree of retcon, but Ner'Zhul ALWAYS has fought those who put him in that armor. It's better to say that the Jailor was in the background, subtly influencing and corrupting him, but not outright controlling him. Even the cluelessness works too, if you attribute it to communications limitations or the need for subtlety. Clearly, the Jailor couldn't just flex is power at the time, so he had to work through intermediaries. And if he really didn't want his plans being discovered and dismantled, he could have had his forces working in discrete cells which wouldn't have had contact with each other. Sure, we've had some retcon, but the story isn't completely broken.
what's annoying is that a lot of these "ret cons" are easily explained away. Yogg Saron is the Old God of Death, since Northrend is cosmologically connected to the Shadowlands if not the Maw itself. With his landing and encampment in the north of Azeroth his insight is large on death because he's basically been surrounded by a raw power source of death for over 10k years. Yogg Saron's blood was used for building this because it was the strongest most plentiful material in Ice Crown. Same reason why we used Saronite for our weapons and armor. Not just that but the Undead are immuned to its influence. Not just that but it is probably a source of magical power since it is literally the blood of god from the Void. put this together and it explains two things. ICC was created with Yogg Saron's blood because the blood was plentiful, it was magically charged, the Undead were immune to effects (Since they are of the Shadowlands), and the Citadel itself acts as a sort of soul lightning rod. Which brings us to the last thing, why it was built. It was built because it is a direct link to the Maw in the Shadowlands. This was probably always the Jailor's plan. The difference is he had to improvise because the Arthas Lich King failed. If he had succeeded Arthas would have destroyed the helm and opened the way for Azeroth to be absorbed by the Shadowlands. Since he didn't Sylvanas had to. Breaking the crown, which we know is directly connected to the Jailor's Power, release that power and with the citadel acting as the soul lightning rod to the Maw shattered reality trying to send the soul power back to the Maw. This is my retelling of the "ret cons" which to me aren't ret cons, just are things that are being explained With an example of an actual retcon was the changing of the inspiration of the Scourge Architecture. A retcon is when a artist/artists say one thing and then change it later. These were not changed so much as they were vague and left up to interpretation. Now there is an answer.
It's also possible that perhaps the Jailer never originally intended for the Helm to be destroyed at all. Losing that would mean losing a powerful weapon for when the other cosmic factions took notice of what the Jailer was doing with Azeroth. What if the plan had been to use ICC as a focusing rod for a ritual to break the barrier between Azeroth and the Shadowlands, and Yogg-Saron (safely imprisoned below) as the power source for this ritual, seeing as Yogg-Saron became somewhat attuned to the Shadowlands when he breached the Emerald Dream and Ardenweald. That plan went kaput after he lost Arthas (who I think might have partially provoked the events of WotLK as final desperate gamble) and Yogg-Saron. But, one good thing did come out of that: the destruction of Frostmourne, itself a powerful Maw artifact, accelerated the weakening of the veil. To the point that all it would need was one final, strong push to shatter it completely. And the only thing left on Azeroth that was powerful enough to do the job, and within the Jailer's easy reach, was the Helm.
They needed to use the blood of an old god to construct Icecrown because Void is close to Death on on the cosmological map and it was the most abundant resource of its type nearby.
*WC3 After Tichondrius tells Arthas to go to Quel'thalas* Kel'thuzad: "Tell him nothing! Only you can hear me. The dreadlords cannot be trusted. They are the Lich King's jailors. I will tell you all when I walk this world again." This would imply two possible options: 1) Kel'Thuzad didn't know of Zovaal and was referring to Nerzhul. 2) The dreadlords are the jailors of the lich king Zovaal. Why would Kel'Thuzad want to hide his existence from the dreadlords if they were on the same team?
I'm going to base this on warcraft 3 lore. Because the dreadlords belonged to the legion in warcraft 3, not the shadowlands as currently depicted. The dreadlords simply wanted Arthas to be a good puppet for the legion and kel'thuzad knew this, hence his advisory to Arthas not to mention that he was communicating with him. Also, since the dreadlords belonged to the legion, they were most certainly not on the lich kings side, as they only saw the lich king as a tool or weapon to be used.
Whats even weirder is that at one point, Blizzard tried to explain the presence of the Obsidian Destroyers in Northrend as a group of captured Tol'vir that were guarding Azjol-Nerub, which was not actually a Nerubian city after all, but was in fact a Titan built facility that the Nerubians simply took over. Thus, Scourge architecture is based on Nerubian architecture which is based on Titan architecture.
I think similarly to the Titans from the Plane of Order has Eonar or shadowlands has the Winter Queen aligned to the plane of nature. Yogg being born near the Helm gave the Void oriented being the touch of death. His blood/energy of death literally manifests as a mineral that is born of the most inestimable realm of death possible. You could extend this to C'thun being touched with the plane of order, or Yasarj touched by fell chaos. Adds a great layer!
I don't think this was the last we'll see of yogg and don't you think the plane of death might be the perfect place for the god of death to show up. What if Yogg is a double agent?
I always get surprised of how you keep surprising me with legit comments and video materials, rather than blindly talking about retconned lore. Really great job Bellular Team! Really outstanding video!
I always saw the scourge's use of saronite as simple utility; it was described as light and strong, and the scourge seemed to be the only force that could mine it in large quantities w/o falling prey to Yoggy's influence.
Personally would have liked if they went back to the old lore of the old gods of their power level. Just replace the jailer with yogg and make the one on azeroth an avatar which would then make you think about the other 3. I personally just think the old gods were oozing personalities but were done dirty
1:47 - 8:00 My personal theory is that Icecrown was meant to be a beacon to guide Torghast through a point in the Maw to find where the veil was thinnest so it could be shattered as Sylvanas did in the cinematic. If you look at Torghast in the Maw in the Beta, it is a *floating* tower.
I like the quote, “They do not live, they do not die, they are outside the cycle” Old Gods return to the void, but are also not truly “alive”. For Yogg it could be inferred that the “God of Death” is not a god of the dead but the god of killing resulting in death. In short his proclamation is show he is not in control of death but is the one that causes death.
i remember having a conversation with my boyfriend who keeps telling me "Warcraft 3 and WoW aren't the same" and the more we talked about it the more i started to wonder if the WoW we're playing is just one of infinite timelines that could exist in the WoW universe. of course i dont think that would be something the devs would ever claim - its a very easy statement to get themselves out of explaining things and they most likely would've pulled the "alternate timeline" card already in any case. though playing through Legion and remembering the story of it kind of made me think that it's a more likely scenario than we might think. but idk, im just rambling.
That’s all really interesting! Some great insights and research. Do the vast majority of Horde and Alliance actually know that Bolvar is still alive and became the Lich King? I remember Bolvar asking Tirion to tell everyone that he had fallen
I think the easiest way forwards here is to assume Yogg-saron was contacted in someway by the Jailer. The arbiter and 1st ones seem to establish that if they are against the jailer then their successors the titans are defacto jailer enemies. Then riddle it as the enemy of my enemy is my friend, empower yogg, break his prison by feeding him anima, this defacto made saronite thin the veil
I can see them making Icerown out of Saronite for the reason it was the most available material that was strong enough for crafting a fortress. There could be other considerations but there is also just the simple rule of using what you have available. As to Ner'zul, perhaps his soul was freed from the helm when it was broken just like all the souls were released from Shadowmourne when it was broken. I think this also was why Uther was not quite himself in the Shadowlands until the fragment of his soul was released to re-join the other part.
You pointed out that Nerubian architecture has similarities with Maldraxxus', which reminded me that the House of Eyes has heavy spider themes. They even have their own spider-like race called Aranak. My theory is that Arakek might be the reason why Nerubians are arachnids rather than insectoid(like the rest of the Aqir descendants), also explaining why they betrayed Yogg-Saron and are immune to Plague of Undeath. Plus in Maldraxxus Afterlives we know that the Houses of Eyes had access to the Mortal Plane.
The more recent War of the Ancients book actually states that the Dreadlords have started necromancy as a field of magic. Reanimating kaldorei corpses left in the Legion’s wake.
@@stumpy1146 It’s somewhere around when they reconvene at Black Rook Hold and try to get in touch with lord Ravencrest. Before the whole war broke off officially.
21:29 what if when we saw that energy wave brake out of the helm as it was broken wasn't the only thing to come rushing out and somewhere in the shadowlands is a really ticked off orc bidding his time and regaining his strength?
I can see a way they could reconcile Yogg-Saron, Saronite and the Nerubians with modern lore. Yogg-Saron either was corrupted by death/The Jailer or killed and revived. Maybe he conspired with The Jailer against his brothers. Either way, this would mean his blood, Saronite, is actually an element that's from the Shadowlands. It might've also given him the ability to influence the minds of the Nerubians or make them "undead", much like how Arthas became undead after taking Frostmourne. Then, the Nerubian architecture starts making sense, as well.
reminds me of that story of Arthas killing Nerzhul and his child self in his meditation on the throne. Obviously it predates the Jailer but it would make sense that getting rid of Nerzhul's influence, the guy who actually knew about the jailer, would make Arthas more vulnerable to his control. Perhaps the adult 'Arthas' was actually the Jailer banishing Nerzhul and Arthas.
This maybe old lore but i understood the legion attacked azeroth and failed so they found Ner'zhul (an orc shaman on dreanor who was interested in necromancy) and gave him some necromatic powers, then they captured him , tortured him till his body broke, then they tortured his soul till it too broke. they made him into the LK. And as their servant they gave him power over undeath so that he could weaken azeroth for them so that it would be an easyer target for their next invasion. But the LK (Ner'zhul) having some will of his own still left and wanting to be free of the legion's control, drew arthas to him so that the LK would have a physical body and no longer be under the legions control.
During wotlk the idea probably was for the being behind to lichking to be yogg. This changed as they squished the role of the old gods and now they are retconning it being the jailer all along
What if sargaras was afraid of the jailer breaking out and consumming all existence? And the titans interpreted it as being the void lords since they're technically the ones that wrote chronicle.
I'm not entirely sure but my younger brother told me that dreadlords did mention did they didn't work for the burning legion in wc3. But in a subtle way
I have a question: How did the Jailer connect the Helm of Domination (from the Maw) to the plague of undeath (from Maldraxxus)? How was he able to give the helm the power to control undead?
I personally think it is because a "piece of him" is within the Helm. There is a huge gaping hole in his chest... compare that to The Arbiter. She has a gem there. He doesn't. There is a gem in the Helm though. Grasping at straws? Maybe... But I seriously think that I am onto something though...
Get your own Scourge loot and support us: www.patreon.com/bellular
Part 1 of 2: ruclips.net/video/GOjRiCWtaMo/видео.html&
There is one thing that eases the transition from old to new though. The fact that the lich king could instruct his underling to slay one of his jailors, to that dreadlords surprise, without repurcussions from the legion at that point, indicates the jailors where not as in control as they should be of they where actual jailors.
Sylvanis has a plan to break the cycle of death and the maw. look at what she talks about in the shadow lands cinematic " a monument to OUR Suffering" " This world is a prison and i will set US all free " sounds like she wants to take the place of the jailer and prevent souls from going to the maw like she did when she died. i dunno but looking into what her goals are and how she talks might be something worth wile :P
I think the Old Gods are agents of death instead of void. Think about it. The curse of flesh makes titan creations mortal. That does nothing to help or hinder void corruption in any way. So why do it? Simple. It gives the Jailer the ability to attack the cosmos for anima while passing the buck to the Void Lords. Remember what the book in Revendreth said: The void are so preoccupied by their infinite truths that they are blind to the lies that the Dreadlords sow in their midst. I think the lies being sown are the old gods "origins". Furthermore, I think the old gods are at the top of Torghast waiting for enough Anima to respawn. Blizzard said they plan to explore what happened to old gods after they died at some point in the future. They never said it was the void. We assumed that because of chronicle and chronicle is from a titan viewpoint that can't be completely relied upon as 100% accurate or truthful.
Because none of this is real, we still have the gift of N’Zoth. He never died, we are in his reality he twisted as he wants us to see it. The Jailer will prove to be fake. We put N’Zoth in place of the world soul, that’s why so much story is centered around the world soul. Black Empire xpac inc.
@@ryandunlap6496 Better yet. No WoW expansion is real because C'thun won in Vanilla and we've been playing a void induced hallucination ever since. See. I can pull made up plot points out of my ass too.
2 expansions from now. The Void Lord ***** was secretly using the Jailor as their instrument.
@KpEMuKoBcu 5 expansions after we discover that the entire game was actually being played on a computer in a video game on a computer in a video game on a computer in a video game, etc, because someone at Blizzard really liked Ultima... a lot.
I think one of the most underrated things you do Bell is find these links between topics, but then always look deeper and work out if they could be from older ideas Blizz had. Where I think most people would make those links and draw huge conclusions from it. I really respect that.
Yup. A lot of people just shallowly look at the lore and discredit it disingenuously.
most people skip cutscenes and quest text and then when major things happen they are like "wow i dont understand this is dumb and retconned!!" fucking morons
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat.
I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all.
For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
@@simpleman3898 Probably poop magic, they all do it, Sylvannas, Jaina, Hogger, yet no one talks about it. Dark arts indeed.
@@yoremothra9838 lololol what?!
The pale orcs do something like that.
This series has impacted how I feel about Arthas and the Lich King as a whole. It's almost a dramatic irony that the fate of the Lich King is to be an empty vessel for something greater, much like the fate of those associated most closely with it. Ner'zhul could have had enormous presence in Warlords, but he ended up being a 5 man Boss. The disrespect.
Yeah but, that's the alternate draenor Ner'zhul. OG Ner'zhul whereabouts are still unknown since the destruction of the helm
@@ElMage11 I thought Arthas extinguished Nerzul's presence? Or at least dominated/absorbed it?
Figured we already knew so much about the more popular orcs they benched NZ to get to know the others more
It's like modern Star Wars. Let's stomp on the past to validate the new. FU Blizz.
I'm pretty sure Ner'zhul's fate in WOD was intentionally anticlimactic in order to create a bigger contrast between alternate Draenor and og Draenor. I mean, Helfire Peninsula was turned from a starter zone wasteland into a lush, endgame zone jungle. And while I see how it may have seemed as a perfect opporutnity to expand on characters like Ner'zhul, it also makes sense as a "Wow, this character was originally pivotal part of the lore, but in this universe, he is just a 5 man boss" kinda moment. I actually really like those kinds of juxtapositions.
here's an idea as to why icecream citadel is made from Saronite:
it's really hard and appropriately gothic in colour
and there was a lot of it in northrend!
they are gonna tie in Yogg in this some how... thanks to the quote that they keep using.. plus is wow, there always has to be an oldgod involved cuz the writers cant help it.
@@brandonHines76 We only know about old gods on our Azeroth... there are probably many many many more out in the cosmos.
*Anything happens*
Bellular "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!"
His videos are such clickbait but I still watch because I'm addicted to WoW.
@@Rizerr96 *scratches neck* got any more of them WoW conspiracy theories?
@@nervseeker Jaina is still a dreadlord O_O
@@Rizerr96 would kinda make sense since that one dread Lord did day all cosmic forces have been infiltrated and aren't we mortals falling under the Titans in the whole cosmic forces?
@@Rizerr96 Unless the one with Sylvanas who did the Undercity event was the one infiltrating the Titan/Mortal Factions.
The lore suffers because they never had an idea of the beginning or the end and money, of course. J. R. R. Tolkien has LoTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion etc. George R. R. Martin also has so much completed backstory for every character that he will always have a direction, even if it changes a little. I love WoW lore a lot, but I wish they took it seriously because anything that has to be retconned can easily make me lose excitement.
Agreed!
Exactly.
I find the retconning of the Dreadlords absolutely stupid.
Working in secret for the Jailor? They were so clueless to the point of having no idea of the Legion's downfall at Mount Hyjal for months.
This shows that the Dreadlords were cut off from the Legion's power. If they were working for this Jailor, the Jailor would have told them about Hyjal.
thats exactly how under whelming it feels to learn about all this *new* lore that sorta pulls the bite out of old info.
While GRRM has been said to have laid foundations and backbone for his characters and world, he has been explicitly stated to flrsh this out as he goes. It's part of why his books take time, he keeps rewriting due to new elements being introduced.
And Tolkien, oh dear fantastic Tolkien, he started with only the Hobbit. It underwent several rewrites as LotR was conceived, and lore did change there to properly accomodate the budding trilogy.
Reimaginings of Lore happen all the time in a lot of different stories, excepting if they've been roadmapped and planned to prevent it. It's normal, just much, much easier discovered in things such as games, especially in internet times. Having differing writers doesn't help either.
With all of that said, no matter how you do either of these things, it's very much about how you handle it, and Blizzard are notorious for having inconsistent lore. They're not mega good storywriters, as seen by several expansions leaving people not caring for the story.
Here is how it fits together. Yoggsaron claims to be the God of Death, this is because of his ability to consume Anima and utilize it's Power. He knows about the Shadowlands. His Plan was to connect with Azeroths Soul and gain Access to other cosmic Realms using her Power. Old Gods gather Power in different ways. Yogg feeds off Souls. Yarsharaj feeds off emotions, and so on. Icecrown was made out of Saronite because it's compatible or even filled with the powers of death. Its a good catalyst. To strengthen the link from the Jailer to his Artifacts on Azeroth.
yogg saron never claims to be the god of death
Sounds good, makes sense.
@@sneaksies8931 Read your lore buddy. He certainly does.
@@schroecat1 no he doesnt lol. this isnt anything to do with "lore" either. its a quote from a boss fight. he says "bow down before the god of death" he never says that he is the god of death. while it is likely him, we cant know for sure.
@@sneaksies8931 what do you mean he doesn't ??? At the very start of the fight he says "I am the lucid dream, (I am) the monster in your nightmare, (I am) the fiend with a thousand faces, BOW DOWN BEFORE (me) THE GOD OF DEATH."
Like, what kind of denial are you trying to pull out ? All the evidence are there x)
I seem to recall there being a lot of antagonism in Warcraft 3 between the Dreadlords and Team Nerzhul with Arthas and Kel-Thuzad. Shouldnt really have been like that, if they re ultimately all agents of the Jailer.
Do not trust the dreadlords
One explanation could be that not all Dread Lords are united in purpose. Not all of them are behind a single conspiracy. That would be weird. They are a race of people. Why would they be the only ones in the whole WoW to have only one singular faction where all individuals are perfect servants of one single leader?
I think it makes sense that those Dread Lords in W3 completely converted to Legion and thus they were not pretending their allegiance to it. It would even explain why they were suspicious of the Lich King.
But...I have severe doubts that this is the idea Blizz is using now.
@Sli'yanka also remember that Arthas and Kel'Thuzad thought that the dreadlords were demons and entirely associated with the Legion. Ner'Zhul himself was not aware of the huge role the dreadlords had had in his appointment as the lich king. If Sargeras and the Burning Legion were all fooled, do you really think that little pathetic human Arthas and Kel'Thuzad would have any idea?
More like Arthas was a pawn of Ner'zhul was a pawn of the dreadlords were pawns of the Jailer and every pawn wanted to betray their masters.
We keep hearing talks about an Arthas movie. I really hope they decide on something like an HBO mini series so we can do his story more justice than what could fit into a 2.5 hour movie. There's just too much important stuff there that I hope they don't cut out or try to combine things, like combining the assaults on Silvermoon and Dalaran or something.
Maybe Yogg’s scrying into the shadowlands allowed him to absorb some amount of anima which was concentrated in his blood making it the ideal building material for ICC as a sort of beacon to the maw.
Edit: also Yogg is capable of inducing visions as seen in Ulduar. He could have shown his highest level nerubians visions of Maldraxxus as a blueprint for their architecture. The reason he would copy their structures would be to boast his abilities.
Another point. We have no idea in lore when exactly the House of Plagues fell, but from the looks of it in-game, it seemed fairly recently, maybe months earlier or something. Now I remember someone from Blizzard saying that time doesn’t necessarily work differently in the Shadowlands, so I don’t think that time-traveling dreadlords were involved. And in any case, if the Plague of Undeath was originally created by the House of Plagues, knowingly or otherwise, why destroy your source? They would’ve been likely using Maldraxxis-native ingredients that you couldn’t find on Azeroth in any case. Personally, I think that even if Maldraxxis was the source of the Plague, I don’t think the fall of the House of Plagues had anything to do with its creation. I think that Ner’zhul, under the Jailer’s influence, merely saw visions into the Shadowlands like Bolvar did, got glimpses of the House of Plagues at work, and used it as his inspiration for creating his own Plague, maybe stealing some death-magicks from Maldraxxis to make it work properly. And besides, if you look at the effects that the House of Plagues’ fall had on its former inhabitants, it looks like most of them were either killed outright, driven mad or turned into weird hybrid slime monsters. It doesn’t bare the traditional hallmarks of the Plague of Undeath, which makes me think it’s something else entirely
@@JPLOWMAN2 Wasn’t the House of Plagues still around when Drakka died and started her rogue training? Idk really. If there’s no timey wimey stuff happening then it seems that it was destroyed during her time in Maldraxxus.
I like that Yogg was able to spy on the shadowlands but I think the powers of the Warcraft universe all had knowledge of each other’s realms. It could be that for the void it was meant to taunt the realm of death by copying it and using in a mortal realm.
As to why Arthas used saronite it could’ve been his way of lessening the jailers control over him. So he’d be able to in a subconscious way resist.
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat.
I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all.
For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
@Krljavi Dzo Reborn ya i hate retcons too
Wasn’t ICC made with Saronite because it made mortals go mad when in proximity of it for too long and undeads being super resilient to this effect?
It made lower-level undead go ballistic too, but it was also one of the strongest materials in the region.
Its funny that from a lore perspective we talk about how "this was the plan all along" and "so and so was scheming this whole time all the way back since expansion xyz."
But in the end, Bliz (while they have a general sense of a heading for the future) really didnt have anything of this planned out going back all the way to BC. They are very talented and incorporate past plot threads into new stories like it was like that the whole time....
but i find it fun and interesting when we talk about things like as if it was the reason and story the whole time :)
makes it more interesting for players too because the player just doesn't know everything and we can speculate. In a detective movie, the viewer often knows who the culprit is long before the detective does. With WoW that is not the case for many things.
On the other hand, this kind of style means a lot of retcons because they change things that already happened to make it fit better with the new story they want to tell.
You say they are very talented incorporating past plot threads while they simply rewrite a ton of lore making anything that happened (and will happen) irrelevant as they have and will retcon anything.
About as planned as Disney Star Wars trilogy 🤣
I mean this goes for almost every video game in history.
At most a developer might have dreams of setting up a trilogy or something, but plot threads are rarely thought out completely in advance even in those situations. They quite literally make it up as they go, incorporating elements they've wanted from the start while often coming up with new ones to tie everything together for the sake of cohesion.
@@Eldair I can't think of a story in history where, if added to enough, doesn't have some sort of retconning.
A lack of retconning doesn't make story tellers talented, neither does rewriting.
How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man
I love the young people!
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat.
I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all.
For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
@All_lives_matter, reject fabricated racism by govt so your the dangerous magic kinda dude lol. Remember almost every npc in wow has an ability and a specific name. I love the nightborne. Everything they do is so coolll.
8:25 = Simple plot hole fix...
In biology, there's a recognized concept of "convergent evolution" where two dissimilar species evolve to inhabit the same niche. This has also been seen with ancient architecture when looking at Central American societies and their focus on step-pyramids and the pyramids found in Egypt. Other examples would be the farming techniques developed through Vietnam and Florida natives.
Just because two species have similar architecture does NOT necessarily make one a derivative IE: Rome from Greece.
Dude they're not putting divergent evolution into wow lol
@@skyreach669 CONvergent, not divergent... slightly different definitions there.
What, you think biology doesn't apply to WOW? History obviously does, otherwise they wouldn't have archeology. Alchemy requires specific ingredients cooked together at a specific ratio and you don't need to be a magic user to do so... real world equivalent of basic chemistry (science+math).
If science and math can be applied and history is a known profession then historical science could easily be seen as a possibility. Hence "CONvergent Evolution" could be applied to architecture in WOW just as it is in RL.
@@JKLauderdale
If there is one thing I have learned over my 15 years of playing WoW.... it is that logic rarely (if ever) fits in. It seems like Blizz tries so much harder to "explain off" rather than use logic. :p
@@tuonthenoble9012 Oh, I 100% agree - Logic doesn't really apply when dealing with any sorta fantasy setting, much less one that's been retconned since WC3.
I was simply bored when reading the prior comment, waiting to give my brother a drive to pick up his car from the garage :)
@@skyreach669 it kind of is already there, boars in Azeroth and Draenor, Kodos and furry Kodos in Nagrand, Rylaks and Chimeras etc. Beasts inhabiting the same biological niche without any genetic connections.
The building architecture of the nerubians is not their own, they just borrowed it from what was left of the tol'vir civilization that they invaded there when they split from the aqir because of the trolls.
Which makes things even more convoluted!
@@howardhavardramberg333 yes. why did they choose to convolute the story so much is beyond me
I thought that Nerubian architecture, like all Aquir, was inspired by Nyalotha
Another Bellular video ANOTHER CHANGES EVERYTHING
Damn you guys and your breakdowns of lore and speculations! This is by far one of my most favorite videos! Very much thankful for your dedication and passion about such projects, keep it up! Wish this well of content never dry out!
Shadowlands : Sylvanass has allied with the jailer and you must stop her by joining one of four covenants
BFA : the horde and the alliance , the two most powerful factions of Azeroth have engaged in one of the most catastrophic wars in the history of Warcraft... So you one of the most powerful adventurers and champion of Azeroth should go and .... Help the turtle people make triangles!
Unless it's in Nazmir, at which point you tell Nola to sod off -_-
A TURTLE MADE IT TO THE WATER!
In Shadowlands you will have more daily shit shows
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat.
I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all.
For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
@@simpleman3898 fel magick
This is my opinion. I believe 100% that you cannot count out Yogg and N'zoth from this expansion. I agree with you that Yogg may have seen something when he touched the roots of the world tree. The void has been fighting control for the Shadowlands for awhile now, we do not know how long. Ner'zhul is still alligned to the Dark Star and has always been an agent of the Void. His soul being cast into the helm of domination was part of this Void plan. Now take into account that saronite was used to build Icecrown. This was because it would allow Yogg to tether his essence to thr conduit between life and death for when the heroes defeat the Lich King, Yogg could ascend with his full strength into the Shadowlands to begin the Void war against the undead. We all complained how easy N'zoth fell and I believe this was because he too was to be instrumental in this war and needed to be killed in order for Yogg to redirect N'zoth's soul into thr Shadowlands. If a Void soul were to go to the Shadowlands then it might end up in the Maw and for a being of corruption, the Maw is a major power for such being. I believe we will see that even though the Jailer was using the Burning Legion for his own gain. The Void was one step ahead of him and looking to gauge out one of their long time foes.
feels so underwhelming learning that all the lore and all the actions of legendary baddies were just as peons and not as the madmen they were written as.
the fact tha they chase the high cosmic lore causes so many rewrites, rather than just.... making a consistent and well written one from the ground.
hey bellular, wasnt the dreadlords also expermenting with undeath during the war of the ancients too, i rememeber somewere that broxigar and ronin ran into undead in suramar and killed a dreadlord preforming the ritual
Yes, yes they did
Won't we see Broxigar in the Shadowlands then if this is the afterlives? Or was he already reborn as someone else?
I just love the living nerubians. I've been fascinated by them since warcraft 3.
The fact that they rebelled against their Old God master just makes them incredibly badass. And I love the fact that they are at the very least neutral towards us. Maybe only because they saw a chance to retake theur kingdom with our help, but they do seem just a lot more individualistic and more "human" than any other Void originating creations. Its mentioned they have friends and other nerubians they care about. They also care about their history. Once you kill Anub'arak you get an item called the Idle Crown of Azjol'nerub. If you turn it in to the Kirin'tor they suggest we should return it to the nerubians when they have a new king. So it is clear that they themselves are tought of and treated quite differently then the mantid or the aqiur. I think that's really awesome.
I’d love to see more of them in future Xpacs. Giant bugs are fkn cool.
@@ChinnuWoW ya i love the nerubians and the zerg. So cool looking. :D
@@frewthelookingglass860 yes talking about giant bug races :D
I love the giant beetle boys. Anub'Arak is one of my favorite characters visually speaking.
@@nickmessner700 ya and they have pretty cool magic. I would love to live there.
I am really loving these deep dive lore videos the team has been doing, awesome stuff!
Best two videos I've seen since a long time...thank you for wrapping this up.
The only way I can think to blend the saronite used to make ICC into lore is that it's supposed to be in mockery.
'Look at your power and see how it does nothing' type of thing.
Its been said that the undead are highly resilient to the powers of the void and we can see that all the greater powers in wow are blindingly arrogant. So the forces of undeath laugh at the power of the old gods?
Yup it was abundant then why not use it
Great vid. Glad you took the Dreadlords’ departure from the Scourge into consideration in this one :)
I feel like there is still opportunity to connect the Jailer and Yogg saron. It is the beast with a thousand "Maws". Sylvanas met the Jailer after being impaled on Saronite. Yogg-Sarons connection to the Nightmare and perhaps the shadowlands.
retcon clean up: Nerzul started the construction, or at least the gathering of resources, mostly seronite mining, after as already void connected learns of yogg and then void lords, ect. Then Arthas by jailers influence simply uses the on hand seronite for his citadel "portal"
I just hope Kel'Thuzad ultimate goal is to save Arthas from the Maw, to save his king who raised him back from the Shadowlands once. I truly believe he was pleased to save Arthas and would prefer him over the Jailer.
KT and Arthas, the greatest bromance since Thrall and Grom.
Same. Really don't want to perma kill the guy and just have him be another generic evil baddie. Keeping him loyal to Arthas gives him a degree of nuance and motivation rather than just being evil for evil's sake.
need to comment here to save this theory ahahhaa
yogg saron could be one of the very few cases where the void successfully consumed death and gained so much control over it before his defeat
@bellulargaming Maybe Yogg Saron was completely unaware of the jailor? Yogg exists in the physical realm on Azeroth, whereas the Jailor physically in the shadowlands. Yogg could have simply presumed he was the god of death because of ignorance to the shadowlands. However, we now understand the Jailor worked in the background of the Lich Kings minds. So it's almost like there were 2 competing forces working to dominate death. Only, the Jailor was the only one of the 2 to be aware of the other. This gave the Jailor the upper hand. The citidal was probably a way to give the Jailor a foothold and control on Azeroth and he probably had it constructed of saronite to know what Yogg was planning, since saronite allows Yogg to whisper into minds. That means the Jailor could listen in, with Yogg being completely unaware. Kind of like the phone line was bugged😂
Thanks so much for your great videos. REALLY enjoy everything you release! The lich king is my personal favorite character in wow. His story runs the entire gauntlet of emotions. Glad to see another expansion devoted to this great character. I look forward to watching all your videos about it. Again, thank you to you and your great team!
I like to think that the line "Father! Is it over?" was originally intended as a connecting point for Yogg'Saron's connection to the Lich King as we know was originally intended. But then Blizzard is changing that to instead be the Jailor's control over the Lich King entity.
Honestly, having killed the LK when he was current, I honestly thought Arthas meant was his reign as a king was over, as his father said no king rules forever before Arthas became evil.
@P J This! I always thought it was weird.
Hey, i just wanna have a fun chat.
I love WOWs world and really wanna bounce ideas of some y'all.
For starters I've never seen a bigger magic based world. So question: what your favorite kind of magic?
Well the original plan was clearly to put the Light against the Void, I think the void side of things wound incorporate shadow, death and fell (and the legion would have been an example of fighting fire with fire when it comes to the void corruption) and the light would have been Light (obviously) nature and life. But since they want to go the "Morally grey" way but don't know how to do it they are just creating more and more villains who make barely any sense in retrospect.
Unless The Old Gods and The Jailor are allies 🤔 hmmm
Maldraxxis being the origin of scourge archtecture is a hard retcon because it was supposed to be based on Nerubian structures.
Also modern should ALWAYS conform to original you shouldn't retcon at all because it cheapens the work as a whole and I stand by that all of the problems started with the draenai retcons and blizzard pulling it out of their butts since.
I prefer to adhere to new lore to be honest. Sometimes old lore can restrict the story that the writers want to tell, and if changing a few things allows them that flexibility, I'm all for it.
@@DanielScutt I liken it to the way the lore is written in Elder Scrolls. Most of the lore for the games is written in books that are all written by various authors. Some of which are unreliable sources. Which I think is really cool, and it makes things a bit more malleable for the writers.
HELLO BELLULAR. GREAT TO SEE YOU AND GLAD YOU ARE EXPLAINING THIS.
Incredible work guys, thank you!
CHANGES Everything!
I changed everything before I started watching this video
He's just playing into the meme at this point. :D
Every video ever lol
But not asmons shirt.
THIS CHANGES CHANGE EVERYTHING !
One of Yogg-Saron's titles is Beast of a Thousand Maws, which if you try looking up what some people have pictured death to be an all consuming maw. And then if you think about it for long enough it makes sense that he is the Old god of Death because of how he is visually portrayed.
Great video; thank you. Excited to see how things unfold.
More so than anything, this video taught me that 'Ret-Con' was actually short for something, ty Bel
I love constantly recontextualized lore. I love learning about things that happened behind the scenes that we weren’t previously aware of and unknown character motives. I guess it’s just a byproduct of playing MGS games my whole life.
The one plot thread that I was always curious about I don't think ever made it into the game: Garrosh's reconstruction of Orgrimmar.
I recall at the Blizzcon where Cataclysm was unveiled, I believe it was during the lore panel, we were told we've seen the black steel Garrosh rebuilt Orgrimmar with before.
So I've always assumed it was from Saronite. Which would have presented all kinds of issues.
But then we got the expansion gap book (I think it was Thrall's novel?) where it was just explained that Orgrimmar got structural damage from an elemental fire, and so Gazlowe said he'd rebuild it better than ever.
The Helm of Domination must be reclaimed and reforged in Maldraxxus.
everytime i try to understand wow lore, i feel like i would need to read a 400 pages research paper....
And i have been playing wow for 10 years!!
I think it’s relevant to mention that if you’re in the Shadowmoon Burial Grounds dungeon and die on Ner’Zhul, the portal that leads back to his room says “Enter the Shadowlands”. Which means that Ner’Zhul had knowledge of the Shadowlands, or at least of the power that comes from it before he ever departed Draenor
You can maybe "massage" Icecrown being made of saronite a contributing factor to the sort of overlapping of the planes/thinning of the veil. They could reveal Yogg was called the god of death because of his knowledge of the shadowlands. The Nerubians might have picked up the style from back when they were buddies I guess.
I just love how people are forgetting that the dreadlords tried to kill Arthas in warcraft 3 which would actually destroy the lich king.Just love it.Blizz making story up on the spot and dumbos going with it.
I mean, how do you know there arent some Dreadlords who wished to betray the Jailor and side with sargeras, just like how Lothraxion might actually be siding with the light now (we dont know) - dreadlords could have varying allegiances
@@TheNeysu I fundemantally wanna know why would the dreadlords want lich king dead if they were the jailor's true pawn?
@@TheNeysu he is though. Its quite explicitely said in the lore book that bellular covered in part 1. Unless what you mean is Sir denatrius isnt allied with the jailer, that we will see i guess
"We have to massage the lore to fit the new information" and shortly after "stuff from the past that doesnt align"
It's ALL retcon!
The slow fade of Bell's face with the helm of domination scene did not go unnoticed
Bellular: I think it could be salvaged.
Narrator: It wasn't.
Love your videos, dude :P
in the yogg fight when you go inside for kill his mind in the lick king scenario, the lick king is saying : i will break you ...as i broke him!. to bolvar
Omg these ad placements:
Bellular: " I just want to further address the elephant in the room *AD BUSTS IN*VERIZON 5G"
I'm okay with advancing lore as long as it's done Tastefully. The old Star Wars EU had some Unforgettable stories that expanded on the original story that are in my opinion nearly as memorable as the original. I'm glad blizzard is at least putting in the time and effort to work with the old lore and mold it into shape as opposed to just leaving it there.
They could explain building Icecrown out of Saronite as a means of using Yogg Sarons power to combat the jailers influence over the helm and the scourge. It would also explain his claim as the god of Death, he came to believe he conquered death when his blood was used and his control was exerted over some of the lesser undead as evidenced in those missions in the Icecrown zone.
Solid work! Love Bel!
But remember at the last Blizzcon that Ion basically said that "Chronicle" 1-3 are the history of Warcraft from the Titans perspective and not necessarily the real history. While I think it's a massive mistake on their part to basically tell everyone that they are only putting out these books and not actually considering them as part of the in-game lore, canonically speaking, we still have to understand it as such...for better or worse...in order for it to make any sense. You have to throw out what you think you know from before the end of Legion, because...as Blizzard sees it...the REAL history is now being presented to us. Just would have made more narrative sense for Sylvanas' drastic change during Legion/BFA, if they had given us some kind of clue that she had obviously gotten in touch with the Jailer after Genn broke the lantern. That's the only thing that makes sense, at this point.
@Bellular you did such a great job of addressing both the current lore but also a meta-style look at the mechanical problems with adjusting some of the old lore. Great work, I found this very entertaining. Question though, what is the reason you are pretty sure the helm of domination will get reforged? To repair the barrier between living and dead worlds?
While they changed the backdrop of Arthas' tragic fall, they didn't change the story itself. I always thought that Arthas' story -- being given an unwinnable situation, being abandoned by both his mentor and girlfriend who might have pulled him back from the brink, then becoming the very thing he was fighting against -- was brilliantly done. The refinements to out understanding of what exactly happened don't touch that story, and for that, I am glad. Even if they decide to redeem or condemn him, it will be a continuation of the story, and not a rewrite.
Most likely he will be our Sargeras/Illidan event of Shadowlands... he will be the Jailor of Sovaal as obviously it wouldn't make sense that we can defeat someone even his own brethren can't kill so imprisoned instead....
So later on we will discover Arthas Menethil and he will stay behind in the Shadowlands as his Jailor if we don't see him peering into the living plane and war with the Old Gods/Void Lords and the Naaru and other cosmic forces.... the Lightborne from Yrel and AU Draenor is coming plus we still got the true Lord of the Burning Legion who was in leadership before Sargeras and Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden. Then the demons of the Dark Below who lore wise is neutral demons who war with the Legion who try to convert them.
The whole thing is retconed to hell now.
In the original W3 the Dreadlords didn't work for any Jailor and they were even clueless to the Legion downfall from Mount Hyjal. They should have known if they were working for the Jailor.
If Ner'Zhul and the Dreadlords worked for the Jailor it doesn't explain why they were at odds and even at war with one another for the whole of W3.
Everything is ruined now.
@@brav0wing Ner'Zhul never willingly worked for anyone. The whole story of his spirit being ripped out, tormented, and shoved in a suit of armor still works. Yes, there has been a degree of retcon, but Ner'Zhul ALWAYS has fought those who put him in that armor. It's better to say that the Jailor was in the background, subtly influencing and corrupting him, but not outright controlling him.
Even the cluelessness works too, if you attribute it to communications limitations or the need for subtlety. Clearly, the Jailor couldn't just flex is power at the time, so he had to work through intermediaries. And if he really didn't want his plans being discovered and dismantled, he could have had his forces working in discrete cells which wouldn't have had contact with each other. Sure, we've had some retcon, but the story isn't completely broken.
dude the margrave of the house of plague that appears in the maldraxus cinematic is obviously a nerubian ...
what's annoying is that a lot of these "ret cons" are easily explained away. Yogg Saron is the Old God of Death, since Northrend is cosmologically connected to the Shadowlands if not the Maw itself. With his landing and encampment in the north of Azeroth his insight is large on death because he's basically been surrounded by a raw power source of death for over 10k years.
Yogg Saron's blood was used for building this because it was the strongest most plentiful material in Ice Crown. Same reason why we used Saronite for our weapons and armor. Not just that but the Undead are immuned to its influence. Not just that but it is probably a source of magical power since it is literally the blood of god from the Void. put this together and it explains two things. ICC was created with Yogg Saron's blood because the blood was plentiful, it was magically charged, the Undead were immune to effects (Since they are of the Shadowlands), and the Citadel itself acts as a sort of soul lightning rod. Which brings us to the last thing, why it was built.
It was built because it is a direct link to the Maw in the Shadowlands. This was probably always the Jailor's plan. The difference is he had to improvise because the Arthas Lich King failed. If he had succeeded Arthas would have destroyed the helm and opened the way for Azeroth to be absorbed by the Shadowlands. Since he didn't Sylvanas had to. Breaking the crown, which we know is directly connected to the Jailor's Power, release that power and with the citadel acting as the soul lightning rod to the Maw shattered reality trying to send the soul power back to the Maw.
This is my retelling of the "ret cons" which to me aren't ret cons, just are things that are being explained With an example of an actual retcon was the changing of the inspiration of the Scourge Architecture. A retcon is when a artist/artists say one thing and then change it later. These were not changed so much as they were vague and left up to interpretation. Now there is an answer.
Naw man it totally “CHANGES EVERYTHING” 😂
This comment CHANGES EVERYTHING
It's also possible that perhaps the Jailer never originally intended for the Helm to be destroyed at all. Losing that would mean losing a powerful weapon for when the other cosmic factions took notice of what the Jailer was doing with Azeroth.
What if the plan had been to use ICC as a focusing rod for a ritual to break the barrier between Azeroth and the Shadowlands, and Yogg-Saron (safely imprisoned below) as the power source for this ritual, seeing as Yogg-Saron became somewhat attuned to the Shadowlands when he breached the Emerald Dream and Ardenweald.
That plan went kaput after he lost Arthas (who I think might have partially provoked the events of
WotLK as final desperate gamble) and Yogg-Saron. But, one good thing did come out of that: the destruction of Frostmourne, itself a powerful Maw artifact, accelerated the weakening of the veil. To the point that all it would need was one final, strong push to shatter it completely. And the only thing left on Azeroth that was powerful enough to do the job, and within the Jailer's easy reach, was the Helm.
They needed to use the blood of an old god to construct Icecrown because Void is close to Death on on the cosmological map and it was the most abundant resource of its type nearby.
*WC3 After Tichondrius tells Arthas to go to Quel'thalas*
Kel'thuzad: "Tell him nothing! Only you can hear me. The dreadlords cannot be trusted. They are the Lich King's jailors. I will tell you all when I walk this world again."
This would imply two possible options:
1) Kel'Thuzad didn't know of Zovaal and was referring to Nerzhul.
2) The dreadlords are the jailors of the lich king Zovaal.
Why would Kel'Thuzad want to hide his existence from the dreadlords if they were on the same team?
I'm going to base this on warcraft 3 lore. Because the dreadlords belonged to the legion in warcraft 3, not the shadowlands as currently depicted. The dreadlords simply wanted Arthas to be a good puppet for the legion and kel'thuzad knew this, hence his advisory to Arthas not to mention that he was communicating with him.
Also, since the dreadlords belonged to the legion, they were most certainly not on the lich kings side, as they only saw the lich king as a tool or weapon to be used.
Whats even weirder is that at one point, Blizzard tried to explain the presence of the Obsidian Destroyers in Northrend as a group of captured Tol'vir that were guarding Azjol-Nerub, which was not actually a Nerubian city after all, but was in fact a Titan built facility that the Nerubians simply took over. Thus, Scourge architecture is based on Nerubian architecture which is based on Titan architecture.
I think similarly to the Titans from the Plane of Order has Eonar or shadowlands has the Winter Queen aligned to the plane of nature. Yogg being born near the Helm gave the Void oriented being the touch of death. His blood/energy of death literally manifests as a mineral that is born of the most inestimable realm of death possible. You could extend this to C'thun being touched with the plane of order, or Yasarj touched by fell chaos. Adds a great layer!
I don't think this was the last we'll see of yogg and don't you think the plane of death might be the perfect place for the god of death to show up. What if Yogg is a double agent?
I always get surprised of how you keep surprising me with legit comments and video materials, rather than blindly talking about retconned lore. Really great job Bellular Team!
Really outstanding video!
I always saw the scourge's use of saronite as simple utility; it was described as light and strong, and the scourge seemed to be the only force that could mine it in large quantities w/o falling prey to Yoggy's influence.
Here before the king of malding reacts to this video.
Personally would have liked if they went back to the old lore of the old gods of their power level. Just replace the jailer with yogg and make the one on azeroth an avatar which would then make you think about the other 3. I personally just think the old gods were oozing personalities but were done dirty
Oh and wow has a issue with and now there's a bigger bad guy. Aka old gods void lords. Now this.
1:47 - 8:00 My personal theory is that Icecrown was meant to be a beacon to guide Torghast through a point in the Maw to find where the veil was thinnest so it could be shattered as Sylvanas did in the cinematic. If you look at Torghast in the Maw in the Beta, it is a *floating* tower.
I like the quote, “They do not live, they do not die, they are outside the cycle” Old Gods return to the void, but are also not truly “alive”.
For Yogg it could be inferred that the “God of Death” is not a god of the dead but the god of killing resulting in death. In short his proclamation is show he is not in control of death but is the one that causes death.
i remember having a conversation with my boyfriend who keeps telling me "Warcraft 3 and WoW aren't the same" and the more we talked about it the more i started to wonder if the WoW we're playing is just one of infinite timelines that could exist in the WoW universe. of course i dont think that would be something the devs would ever claim - its a very easy statement to get themselves out of explaining things and they most likely would've pulled the "alternate timeline" card already in any case. though playing through Legion and remembering the story of it kind of made me think that it's a more likely scenario than we might think. but idk, im just rambling.
Always excited when I see more lore videos here 💯!
Everything changes every time.
They aren't even dead anymore. They are changing into fluffy bunnies. But they changed back.
Try this. Watch one of the 20 min plus videos. Every time he pauses and says well take a shot. Evert time he says fundamental finish a beer.
That’s all really interesting! Some great insights and research. Do the vast majority of Horde and Alliance actually know that Bolvar is still alive and became the Lich King? I remember Bolvar asking Tirion to tell everyone that he had fallen
I think the easiest way forwards here is to assume Yogg-saron was contacted in someway by the Jailer.
The arbiter and 1st ones seem to establish that if they are against the jailer then their successors the titans are defacto jailer enemies.
Then riddle it as the enemy of my enemy is my friend, empower yogg, break his prison by feeding him anima, this defacto made saronite thin the veil
I can see them making Icerown out of Saronite for the reason it was the most available material that was strong enough for crafting a fortress. There could be other considerations but there is also just the simple rule of using what you have available.
As to Ner'zul, perhaps his soul was freed from the helm when it was broken just like all the souls were released from Shadowmourne when it was broken. I think this also was why Uther was not quite himself in the Shadowlands until the fragment of his soul was released to re-join the other part.
Bellular in every single vid with chronicle: "this is just from the viewpoint of the titan's" did he forget???
"Minions, servants, soldiers of the cold dark... obey the call of Kel'thuzad!"
''It makes complete sense.'' Yeah sure, but only if you ignore the obvious parts that doesn't make a lick of sense.
Simple and direct lore is much more powerful than complex and convoluted ideas.
You pointed out that Nerubian architecture has similarities with Maldraxxus', which reminded me that the House of Eyes has heavy spider themes. They even have their own spider-like race called Aranak.
My theory is that Arakek might be the reason why Nerubians are arachnids rather than insectoid(like the rest of the Aqir descendants), also explaining why they betrayed Yogg-Saron and are immune to Plague of Undeath. Plus in Maldraxxus Afterlives we know that the Houses of Eyes had access to the Mortal Plane.
The more recent War of the Ancients book actually states that the Dreadlords have started necromancy as a field of magic. Reanimating kaldorei corpses left in the Legion’s wake.
I vaguely remember that part.
@@stumpy1146 It’s somewhere around when they reconvene at Black Rook Hold and try to get in touch with lord Ravencrest. Before the whole war broke off officially.
@@LoreSquid I think I remember, it's been years since I've read it.
I love your story telling, thanks for all your hard work!
I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the Dun Morogh music at the end of these videos
21:29 what if when we saw that energy wave brake out of the helm as it was broken wasn't the only thing to come rushing out and somewhere in the shadowlands is a really ticked off orc bidding his time and regaining his strength?
I can see a way they could reconcile Yogg-Saron, Saronite and the Nerubians with modern lore. Yogg-Saron either was corrupted by death/The Jailer or killed and revived. Maybe he conspired with The Jailer against his brothers. Either way, this would mean his blood, Saronite, is actually an element that's from the Shadowlands. It might've also given him the ability to influence the minds of the Nerubians or make them "undead", much like how Arthas became undead after taking Frostmourne. Then, the Nerubian architecture starts making sense, as well.
Sometimes I feel that the actual lore of Warcraft would fit more into the Starcraft universe.
Starcraft is reverse warcraft
This will take more than a masseuse. It will take a chiropractor.
"Immortality can be yours, but only if you pledge yourself fully to Yogg-Saron! " - Jedoga Shadowseeker
they way you explain things man.. amazing video !
I think that's why I'm coming back I love the whole Lich King story and everything behind it.
Some parts doesn't add up but the new lore makes much more sense acutally and is complex and I love that.
reminds me of that story of Arthas killing Nerzhul and his child self in his meditation on the throne. Obviously it predates the Jailer but it would make sense that getting rid of Nerzhul's influence, the guy who actually knew about the jailer, would make Arthas more vulnerable to his control. Perhaps the adult 'Arthas' was actually the Jailer banishing Nerzhul and Arthas.
This maybe old lore but i understood the legion attacked azeroth and failed so they found Ner'zhul (an orc shaman on dreanor who was interested in necromancy) and gave him some necromatic powers, then they captured him , tortured him till his body broke, then they tortured his soul till it too broke. they made him into the LK. And as their servant they gave him power over undeath so that he could weaken azeroth for them so that it would be an easyer target for their next invasion. But the LK (Ner'zhul) having some will of his own still left and wanting to be free of the legion's control, drew arthas to him so that the LK would have a physical body and no longer be under the legions control.
During wotlk the idea probably was for the being behind to lichking to be yogg. This changed as they squished the role of the old gods and now they are retconning it being the jailer all along
What if sargaras was afraid of the jailer breaking out and consumming all existence? And the titans interpreted it as being the void lords since they're technically the ones that wrote chronicle.
I'm not entirely sure but my younger brother told me that dreadlords did mention did they didn't work for the burning legion in wc3. But in a subtle way
I have a question: How did the Jailer connect the Helm of Domination (from the Maw) to the plague of undeath (from Maldraxxus)? How was he able to give the helm the power to control undead?
I personally think it is because a "piece of him" is within the Helm. There is a huge gaping hole in his chest... compare that to The Arbiter. She has a gem there. He doesn't. There is a gem in the Helm though.
Grasping at straws? Maybe... But I seriously think that I am onto something though...