Woodfall Temple, A Darker Introduction - Dungeon Design in Zelda (Majora's Mask)
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Woodfall Temple is the first dungeon in Majora's Mask, and sets up the pace for the game perfectly. Let's take a look together.
0:00 - Intro
0:43 - Before The Dungeon
9:41 - Dungeon Progression
20:10 - The Dungeon Boss 
Игры
23:58 "They really wanted to keep things fresh and challenging for players who have already played and beaten Ocarina of Time rather than just a repeat of that experience"
Tears of the Kingdom: "I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that"
This is an old video, but to add to your section on the game's intro, after returning to Majora's Mask with a bit more insight into game dev after trying my hand at making a mod with puzzles and mechanics for another game, I'm realizing how much it also subtly teaches little mechanics for the larger game.
Finding the stray fairy for the great fairy -> setting up mechanic of finding stray fairies in dungeons, and encourage exploration of clock town
Playing hide and seek -> forcing player to explore clock town, get a grasp on Deku spinning to chase the bombers, and get used to time limits (game ends by next night/day)
Bombers' hideout -> teaches player about Deku water hopping to get through the sewer section, and contains first combat encounter
Moon's Tear trade -> teaches player about the item trading interface, important for several sidequests
Something worth noting is the Bomb Flowers in the boss room. The boss's minion summons (the beetles and the moths) can be easily dealt with using bombs. Following the example of the moths throughout the temple, if you pick a Bomb Flower, the lit fuse will attract any bugs in the room to it, killing them when it explodes.
Otherwise, the only way to deal with the moths is to transform into a Deku and wait until the boss summons a ring of fire, which carries the risk of having to start the fight over, since exposing Link's non-Hylian forms to their elemental weaknesses kills him in much the same way falling into an abyss or getting lost in the desert or at sea does; thus, a void-out.
Also, I think Odolwa is weak to bombs, but that might just be coincidence. I just know that I've killed Odolwa by complete accident with a Bomb Flower I picked to deal with his minions more times than I can even count. Maybe he takes damage multiple times from a bomb's explosion since his mercy i-frames are almost nonexistent.
Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, between Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask there are roughly half a dozen bosses that can be one-cycled through precise button presses so you hit them just as their mercy i-frames expire. There's Gohma, Bongo Bongo, Ganondorf, Odolwa, Majora's Incarnation, and Majora's Wrath. Odolwa being one of them is why it was relevant, of course.
“What makes this game tick”-nice metaphor there for a game completely surrounding time ticking away 🙂
Can’t wait for the rest of this series, especially stone tower temple! MM is by far my favorite traditional Zelda game in terms of story and gameplay mechanics.
Interesting that you say that, since MM is probably the most different from other traditional Zelda games as far as those gameplay mechanics and story goes.
@@CaptBurgerson very true, I didn’t think of it like that, but it is really different. I think BotW just exploded Zelda in my mind so that everything prior is “traditional” but you’re totally right MM is super weird compared to the others with its huge focus on side quest > main quest and the time loop thing.
I'm watching this again, because I'm withdrawing from not getting my Daniel Stream Fix today. SHAME!!!
Was waiting on this one
That intro though! Yes!
"Because she spends too much time punching Link in the face."
Love it.
Where’s the lie tho 😂
@@CaptBurgerson I'd never considered Tatl having hands.
It's a really cool dungeon, I really like the 'jungle-feel' you get from this place in particular. The way the Temple just rises out of the swamp water is something I would expect from an Indiana Jones Movie and I'm curious as to whether Nintendo was inspired by those films... I think the drum beats are syncopated so that it keeps the music engaging for the listener even though it's obviously looped like most game music. The tribal dance music fits so well with this dungeon and its boss. If people haven't played Ocarina of Time it's probably a good idea to play that first before this game and ideally complete it as Majora's Mask is a direct sequel and probably the most direct sequel in the Zelda Series? This game is much harder! The freedom to not use the dungeon item to defeat the boss is definitely innovative to boss battles in the Zelda Series at the time and the boss design is really well thought out and immersive.
100% agree!
Funny you mention it, my first cut of the script DID have an Indians Jones reference in it, but I cut it out so as to not incur the wrath of Disney and copyright infringement hahaha.
But it totally has that temple feel!
Thanks for the great comments as always!
@@CaptBurgerson No problem. That's cool, yeah that seems to be a big deal in the US but really it just seems like fans appreciating movies/music for how good and iconic they are? Thankfully we do not have that issue here but I understand your hesitation to include it.
Majora's Mask is what made Zelda games click for me and afterwards I went through and completed OOT. Seeing the residents of Termina in their original context gave me a similar feeling that others likely felt when playing OOT then MM. I wouldn't really call it necessary to complete it in the order of OOT -> MM since some People like me who struggled to get into the series might just need something subversive that still plays to the strengths of Zelda's Dungeon design, rather than a game that's as standard as any other Zelda game and takes a lot of time to get far enough to see the true strengths behind the formula if it doesn't immediately click for You. MM is just all A & S tier dungeons too so it can easily do a fantastic job of showcasing the very best the series has to offer in my opinion (If it isn't obvious I love OOT, just had trouble getting into it at first since I also had a hard time getting into WW, both being capable of the same hangups due to their similarities)
That's my perspective anyway. If it weren't for MM I wouldn't be a massive Zelda nerd so I have a lot to thank for Majora's Mask getting Zelda to click for Me :)
@@TheGameCreator13 I never had an issue of getting into the series as a lot of people used to talk about it in primary school so I can't relate but maybe others can. It just makes sense to play OoT first in terms of context to the narrative and how that narrative progresses into the sequel. OoT sets up the basics of player movement/camera angles as well as gaming mechanics - sword and shield techniques, Z - targeting, how to save game progress, using different items and playing the ocarina all of which is expanded in the sequel and saving game progress was more complex in MM...
The level of difficulty was definitely raised in Majora's Mask and it's very different as a game in comparison to other Zelda Games - time pressured, much more dark, indepth side quests, mysterious and psychological... I played it as a kid but wouldn't recommend it to kids until they were teenagers if I'm honest.
@@hambartha Agreed! Definitely makes sense with how the Gameplay, Story, and Difficulty evolve from OOT -> MM. Was just my specific case anyway, a different perspective.
I also grew up around People who have "grown out" of Nintendo games so that might've been part of my struggle getting into Zelda
Happy Mask Salesman being a closeted psychopath was so easy to see even back in OOT.
I totally agree about the DS remake making it a little too easy. I wasn’t a fan of that either. Much preferred the original designs!
2:39 I think this is meant to be him essentially thinking "I'm going have to go through a traumatizing and harrowing journey to save the world. AGAIN." He still technically has the mind of a child even after being an adult, so this reaction is more reasonable.
Cool you finally made it to one of my favorite Zelda games.
8:02 The only drawback to the blast mask is that it hurts you every time you use it, but if you draw your shield while you’re using it, you can actually use it without taking damage.
The amount of attention your videos have feels criminally low considering the production quality and thoughtful analysis you've put into them. Your speech is so clear and easy to listen to as well.
Sure, dungeon design for games I've been obsessed with for decades doesn't break any new ground or teach me much (beyond the details in sound/music design that you do a fantastic job bringing attention to) but dammit, it's entertaining and enjoyable! I sincerely hope you get to pop off but, save that, I hope to see more of your content to come and that you enjoy producing it. Lord knows I'm gonna binge through this series during drives. Thanks for your effirt and analysis!
OMG that intro gave me CHILLS!!!
Also...."heebie jeebies" hehehehehe! :D
This is a great start to the MM dungeon series! Also love your attention to the music, like Tetra mentioned. I have always loved how Zelda games bring a cultural aspect into the dungeons. The tribal music in Woodfall Temple is somehow disconcerting and beautiful all at once! It's pure genius man.
I can tell you worked super hard on this!! Thanks for all you do :)
Thank you Rin!!! Really glad you enjoyed the video :))))
Majora's Mask... where do I even begin? I only finished this game for the very first time this year (I know, right?), and it is by far one of the most emotional, existential video games I've ever experienced, to the point where I was absolutely obsessed with this game in the weeks following its completion. Rarely does a game make me feel a connection to its world, the inhabitants and the inevitable, terrible fate that awaits them all on such a profound scale. Skull Kid and the Happy Mask Salesman in particular are quite possibly two of my favourite characters in all of gaming. The feelings of dread and depression this game evoked in me were also unmatched by any other game I've played in recent memory.
As a direct sequel, everything about this game is simultaneously an inversion and evolution of Ocarina of Time in some way. The story, characters and themes are more mature, and the tone of the game can only be described as haunting. The art direction and music are more atmospheric and surreal, with more vibrant colours, unique character designs and emotional pieces. Lastly, the gameplay is not only more polished, but it introduces several new mechanics that both directly tie into the world of Termina and its inhabitants and completely transform how the game is supposed to be played.
Now, this is the part where I'm supposed to say something along the lines of "nowhere is this better reflected than in the game's dungeons," but given Majora's Mask's greater emphasis on side quests than other Zelda games, the dungeons arguably aren't even the focal point of the game, especially since there are only 4 of them (5 if you count Inside the Moon). Still, that doesn't automatically mean that they're not worth talking about. It's quite the opposite, actually. After all, sometimes less is more.
Believe it or not, Woodfall Temple is actually a contender for my favourite dungeon in this game, although given the smaller number of them, that might not be a bold claim. This is a completely different kind of introductory dungeon compared to Inside the Deku Tree outside of the nature theme, and even that's different since it's a jungle temple in the middle of a swamp as opposed to the inside of some old tree. Despite that, this dungeon does what it sets out to do perfectly. In Ocarina of Time, even though you're thrown into your first dungeon very quickly, Inside the Deku Tree was still very much an extension of the game's tutorial section. This temple is _not_ a tutorial. Rather, its purpose is to demonstrate to the player that the journey ahead will be much more dangerous and demanding than the last, especially now that Link is a seasoned adventurer. This is the game's way of saying "You're not in Hyrule anymore," before promptly throwing you into the deep end. Hope you can handle poison.
As for the temple itself, I really like the Mesoamerican architectural influences. It helps to establish a sense of culture for the Deku, turning them from a race of simple forest-dwelling plant creatures to one that can establish entire tribes, monarchies and places of worship. And oh man, that music fits the temple perfectly. I am absolutely addicted to the drumbeat in this song. Also, the reimagining of this temple's theme in the album Time's End II by Theophany is just godlike.
Now, we come to Odolwa. This guy is probably one of my favourite Zelda bosses I've fought so far. He's so different from most bosses in terms of his design and how you approach him in battle, but that's what makes him so good! He might not be the most hard-hitting boss (seriously, a quarter-heart of damage from a massive sword like that is laughable, even for the first boss), and he stands around a lot, but it's the spectacle and freedom of the fight that make it a good one. He towers overs you and his attacks are fast, but you yourself can use pretty much any weapon in your current arsenal to take him down. Speaking of attacks, he has so many different ones, including one you never mentioned in this video, which is summoning falling boulders from the ceiling. As for the difficulty, while I found the level of challenge throughout Woodfall Temple to be just right for the most part, Odolwa proved to be a genuine threat when i first fought him. During my first encounter, I relied primarily on my bow to damage him. I remember almost dying to him while getting swarmed by moths, only to finish him off just in time with a well placed bomb. Whether it was intentional or not, that's how you design an intense, rewarding boss fight! Also, his real world Mayan chants throughout the fight are a nice touch.
My only real complaint about the original version of this fight is that if you stumble into Odolwa's wall of fire as a Deku Scrub, you have to start the whole fight over again. That's just unfair and annoying, and it actively discourages you from using the "intended" method of defeating him. The less said about the 3DS version of the fight, the better.
Something I've noticed about the bosses in Majora's Mask is just how enigmatic they are in the context of the story. What or who exactly is Odolwa? Is he a deity worshipped by the Deku who was corrupted by Skull Kid? Is he a creation of Majora's Mask itself? We may never know, but it sure makes for some interesting discussions.
I wanna talk more about the post-boss cutscenes but this comment is getting way too long so I'll end off with this: I can't be the only one who really likes the Deku Princess, right? Not only are her design and sound bites adorable, but she's much more polite than a certain other princess you have to go through a dungeon to rescue.
Can't stress enough how much i love reading well thought out comments like this one. Thank you.
I definitely agree with you here. This is a great dungeon, and MM is also one of my all time favourites.
Thanks, and cheers!
MM vid? I'm all in for it! That intro was so cool
What a great video! I really liked the idea of exploring not only the dungeon but all the context
Thanks Soul!!
MAJORA'S MASK 👍🏼👏🏼 I'm so pumped for the videos for this one!! Full disclosure: I was never able to beat this one 😅 My last attempt was a year or two ago, but I got distracted by other things, and frustrated during the water temple. Anyway!
Thank you for always taking the time to highlight the music 💚💚💚 it's so important to the emotional experience in a video game, and it's just fun to talk about!
I love your observations about the boss, and i definitely agree with what you said about the 3DS version. It was actually a pretty fun fight!
I like that you pop the deku princess in a bottle 😂 funniest thing!
DREAD...DREAD...DREAD. I think it's great that even though this game kind of drags on your emotions the pacing and music etc still makes it fun.
Great video burger! Can't wait to see the rest 👍🏼😊
Thanks T! So glad you enjoyed the video. I worked really hard on this one. 😅
I think I recall you last attempt being a year ago because I was also streaming the game at that point. 🤔
@@CaptBurgerson you're right! I just couldn't remember when it was haha 😝👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I am ashamed. Tetra enter before I did. How dare you.
@@GameOverJesse she is quick on the early access perks
Love this series
What the 3ds remake did to Odolwa was just unforgivable to me, here we finally have a first boss in a Zelda game that poses an actual challenge with varied attacks and multiple different ways to defeat him, and now you just hit him on the head three times and that's it? Thank gods for Loetlino's Restoration Mod, I just can't enjoy the vanilla version of MM3D nearly as much as the original game
Welp, guess I should finally play through this game. Just need to find my old USB drive
I love this dungeon, but TBH, i'm one of the few out there who really dislike Odolwa as a boss... mostly because, as a Level Designer, i'm obsessed with RLD (Rational Level Designed), which is a way to design a level by pacing the progression and difficulty of specific gameplay features within a comfortable rhythm. One of it's main pillar is a tutorialization concept called "TTTM" (Tease, Teach Test, Master), in which Nintendo usually excels in every way. The concept is pretty simple, it's about introducing new mechanics in a way that allows the Players to understand its various uses by themselves in various context.
For example:
Tease: Give the Player a hint about a feature that might be available later in the game, but can't use quite yet (Ex: Show an eye switch on a wall, with a barred door under it in the first room)
Teach: Give the Player a new mechanic and place them in a context where they need to use it to proceed in order to learn the controls organically (Ex: Enter a room that locks you in with another eye switch above it. Find a bow in a chest, but need to use that bow to shoot the eye to exit the room.) Here, the Player should also remember seeing the teased eye switch ingredient earlier and feel clever about thinking to go back for it.
Test`: Show the Player various ways to use the new mechanic in different ways by offering challenges (Ex: Complete puzzles that force you to use to use the bow with various different gameplay ingredients, like lighting the torches, or hitting different kind of switches).
Master: Give a final challenge to the Player where he can prove that he has mastered the Mechanic. (Ex: A boss like Phantom Ganon that requires you to use the bow, but with a specific timing, and be quick to look around and take aim).
Bosses in Zelda, starting from aLttP, are usually all a perfect example of the "Master" step of the RLD's TTTM and are usually interesting puzzles in themselves... but Odolwa, which is great thematically, is kind of disappointing to me because he's just about rushing him mindlessly, without any puzzle or demanding that you've mastered a specific gameplay mechanic.
Anyway, it's a very personal thing. :D
Love your videos BTW!
Thanks for such a thoughtful comment. This is definitely something to mull over, and I can certainly see your angle on it from that perspective.
I'm glad to have that terminology laid out for me, as I've definitely seen those elements in Zelda dungeons quite often.
Thanks again!
Another thing that I liked about Odolwa is that pretty much any weapon you had could damage him, so there was no prescribed method to beat him. You could just fight however you liked. Something also ruined by the pointless addition of giant eyes to him.
I agree with you on the 3DS version. Majora's Mask 3D sucks. They made so many completely unnecessary changes that take away from what made Majora's Mask so unique. Aonuma actually hated Majora's Mask and was disappointed in his work, and his originally didn't want to do this remake. However, Miyamoto forced him, so he reluctantly made it and he used it as an opportunity to "fix" the game. That's why MM3D had so many changes whereas OoT3D was completely faithful.
It's strange that MM3D made changes like making the bosses more rigid to complete and adding eyeballs on them (basically turning them into more traditional Zelda bosses) when MM3D came out only two years before BotW
I would respectfully like to disagree about Twilight Princess's prologue not serving the story (though I do agree that in terms of a gameplay tutorial it does definitely outstay its welcome). The Ordon Village part of the Tutorial helps show us what his life is like before it's torn away from him. Case in point, I think it says something that the three games you cite as requiring the player to 'do the chores' - Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword - are all games where Link has a clear goal for the first act of the game beyond just 'because destiny' or 'Link is there to help'. To save his sister, or the village kids, or his childhood friend. It's a personal reason, and that resonates with a lot of people.
That being said, they do suck as tutorials, I'll agree with that. I feel a happy medium could have been reached but no use mulling over what-ifs I suppose.
I make a lot of "herding goats" jokes, but since this video is not actually about Majora's Mask I don't really dwell on or explain my stance in this video very well. (Not like I do in my actual TP videos)
Really my main issues are when the game grinds to a screeching halt to throw a tutorial at you. Doing errands around the village is one thing, but when the kids stop you outside your house to do a sword tutorial and tell you the sword controls, immediately after they've just halted you outside your house to do a slingshot tutorial to teach you the slingshot controls... THAT is what I find absolutely turns me off of the intro to TP
Commenting before watching is the final boss a Aztec god?!?! Will he talk about this
Oop. Not really 😅
Yeah, I think Odolwa does kinda represent prehispanic Aztec and Mayan gods. He does resemble Huitzilopochtli, the god of war. And he also chants in mayan during his battle.
Odalwa is based af for constantly saying his own name to hypse himself up
I'm gonna comment on all your vids so I'll just say this once. The 3ds butchered the boss battles. To paraphrase Egoraptor, wow Nintendo giving us a boss with a big eye to hit! Inspired!. I actually quit playing because Twinmold made me sick. Let me have options! Good options!
The Twinmold boss fight was made better in the 3ds remaster of MM except for the boss taking longer than it needed to be.
Twinmold doesn't even attack you in the original MM. All it does is erupt from the ground and fly around until Link kills them. In the 3ds it hurls fireballs, rams into you, and summons minimolds.
I’d say that imho yes it improves it on paper… but in execution? No.
What it all boils down to isn’t necessarily their attack patterns but rather something far more important.
Are the gameplay mechanics engaging and interesting? Am I having fun while playing this?
On the N64, it’s a yes for me. Turning into a giant and wailing on a big monster is different and fun.
On the 3DS the tedium kills all of that. It’s kinda more interesting mechanically, but it’s not fun.
@@LordMalice6d9 well same can be said for lanmolas in link tt past, except that didn't take forever and kill my patience/enjoyment. Goht sucked it was fine as it was in N64. Odwala was AWESOME in n64 because of the options to fight him. The only slight improvement is the Gyorg battle, but even that fails because MM 3DS made a mockery of the original Zora swim controls.
@@CaptBurgerson The problem with the 3DS Twinmold fight could have been fixed with alittle more tweaks and quality assurance during play testing.
Like for example, not having the hit box detection on giant link's punches so dang small, not giving Twinmold a reset to his stagger healthbar everytime it dives back into the ground. Actually utilizing the Blue Twinmold phase more instead of just shooting more majora eyeballs at its belly. Little things like that.
@@KrystalloMantis Well you see, I actually thought the changes to the Gyorg fight were worse than with Twinmold. For some reason Gyorg is made very passive in 3DS, all he does is swim around in the first phase and does nothing unless the player does something, like attack him with arrows or get too close. In the original MM, Gyorg was very aggressive he could attack while you were either on or off the platform by ramming it and knocking you in the water.
In the 2nd phase, he does nothing but send out little fishes letting regain you health bar, and he doesn't try to swallow you unless you get close. Its a very tame, meandering fight.
you mean Zelda 5
I’m kinda confused what point you’re making. Are you correcting me calling the game “Majora’s Mask” by inferring it should be called “Zelda 5” instead? Or am I missing something? Either way, it is the 6th Zelda game.
The Legend of Zelda
Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link
A Link to the Past
Link’s Awakening
Ocarina of Time
Majora’s Mask
I always thought the dungeon design in This game was clever but a bit annoying ...
The first Zelda game I finished isn't that funny