We should normalize sprint races rather than vs tetris due to all these problems. This would solve the action reaction problem and the always 100% problem. Seeing your opponent go faster will make you react and be more faster.
@@lester4532 But why wouldn't you already be going as fast as you can? I'm not very good at Tetris, so just let me know if there's some high-level thing I'm missing.
@@lester4532 Please do not take my comment as offense, more like an honest reply covering my thoughts about replacing modern versus battles with sprint races. I appreciate you take the time to come up with solutions! ... I think sprint races do solve some problems, but they also come with some disadvantages which in my opinion weigh more than the problems they solve. "Seeing your opponent go faster will make you react and be more faster." You could say the same thing about modern versus tetris right now. In addition, this is not necessarily the 'action-reaction problem' described in the video. If your opponent plays faster, you should play faster too. In sprint, that's what you would have done anyways. "This would solve the always 100% problem." I think this is a valid point. The whole battle contributes to the win condition. Lastly, when you do a sprint race, there is no interaction with each other, other than mentally. The thing is, you can't change the state of the game of the other player. When you do a real versus battle it needs to have interaction. Your actions should have an impact on what your opponent does and can do and vice versa. It shouldn't be a who is faster battle. It should be a battle where all skills are being tested which makes the game more versatile and more fun. Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
@@NoFontNL or maybe, we could try mixing sprint and vs? Like garbage will still be sent a KO won't finish you. Instead it will just pull back your progress.
I feel like there’s a lot more to Tetrio than just down stacking and not timing at all, which culminated in CZ, who is able to balance mindless offense and defense at the top levels. CZ makes subtle decisions based on his opponents board, which has led to CZ being able to body Firestorm when Firestorm tried to APM spam and cheese spam in different sets.
I think the s tier arguments are a but over stressed, and Tetris is still a very fun, skill based and nuanced game despite them. It is easy to see some of the arguments and think that Tetris vs is a boring game with critical flaws that make it unplayable, but that is simply not true. Besides, there is always an official client or clone that fixes some of these problems and leave in others. Edit:fixed some confusing wording
center 4 wide is still busted on slower modes because nothing can offset the damage if stacked high enough. combos need a nerf in official clients. it's boring watching people c4w in ppt tournaments.
@@anversailles I'd argue it's not combos that are the problem, but c4w in particular. 3w, 2w and s4w can all be dealt with a quick, early burst of damage (which isn't too hard as a DT cannon is 11 lines), but c4w can tank 17 damage and still survive. The solution to this is, in my opinion, to make it so any mino entering row 22 or above results in a top out, so c4w can be kill spiked. That way, combo setups can be nerfed without messing with the combo table.
TGM's combo system would be an elegant solution to this; singles keep your combo but in order to actually add to it, you have to clear 2 or more lines, so by making it so that single combos can't send attacks this would invalidate 4-wides in its entirety
@@dmas7749 how about singles into tetris/tspins still spike but to get an actual combo you need doubles. So there is like a variable saying if combo into tetris multiplyer
How does the Zone in Tetris Effect: Connected apply to the arguments? I personally think that the Zone actually has potential for an interesting action-reaction interaction since you can create a lot of pressure just by building the meter up faster than your opponent, and your opponent has to react by putting a Zone meter and combo to match yours, like chain set-ups in Puyo Puyo. If you are late, you will just die to a massive line attack, or be seconds behind in building a second zone meter for the opponent to use and win the game. It can also be used as a clutch recovery tool, so that's even more interactions between players. It also creates a deviation from being always 100% because of the execution of the Zone combos being in a tight window. It creates this moment in the match when the players are even more focused than normal so as to not mess up the combo and lose. It's also interesting to watch as a spectator because the Zone looks and sounds distinct and amazing, and catches your attention very easily. Lastly, the Zone also heavily rewards upstacking for building Zone combos. Honestly, building the Zone meter up almost feels like building up a special meter in a fighting game, which is always going to be a crowd pleaser. The only problem would only be how fast it is to fill a Zone in high levels of play, so maybe the rate of it filling should be reduced. The only real problem would be that this takes rewarding fast tetris to a whole new level at high levels of play. I'm not a very competitive tetris player, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but I am just curious here.
I was actually super interested in zone in the beginning, there's quite a few things that it fixes or helps solve in this list, mainly always 100% as you mentioned. I think the reason I don't like it is because the gameplay gets kinda monotonous, with garbage pretty much only being exchanged through big back and forth zones. But flaws aside, I'm very happy that there was an attempt to shake up the formula, and I hope that more things like zone battle happen in the future.
This was my thought too, in particular as a response to the "always 100%" problem. I just got done watching a high level zone batter today that was super engaging and fun to watch bc of the longer term strategies that zone introduces. Plus the phases of zone battle in TEC add a lot to this as well
Two of the top 3 issues were solved in Tetris Friends, more specifically the Battle mode. In Battle, garbage lines were not able to be cleared by themselves, and rather needed the player to send their own garbage lines to disappear, solving the downstacking issue. In addition, games ended after a set number of KOs, meaning that more events throughout the game would all lead up to the ending, and the pressure would be built up as you got closer to a loss. That solves the intensity issue. Too bad Tetris Friends and Tetris Battle no longer exist.
@@pc31754 yeah but it fun (also doesn't Worldwide Combos have something like that? i think it's bombs and not flat but that doesn't send garbage either)
I have to disagree with the no interaction one. Imo acting according to your opponent’s board is a big part of the game. Because there are choices to make offensive, defensive, or upstacking plays accordingly. If your opponent makes a missdrop when high, you want to send fast garbage, if low you want to stack up for a winning blow. When you are high and down stacking, sometimes you don’t want to send t-spins and tetrises since they are gonna be sent right back at you. I would say these strategies are the reason I am doing better than others at my speed and even apm.
I think the point is, the problem is that you can just not care about what your opponent is doing a lot of times, and the Puyo comparison he brought up is v good
I'm not entirely convinced by the S tier arguments. I don't think a game being 100% all the time is necessarily bad-- sure, tetris matches don't really have coherent "beginning, middle, end" like most other games do. That seems fine to me though. Not all genres of games need to do that. Tetris multiplayer is still very fun nonetheless. And the action-reaction part doesn't seem entirely true either; some decisions about being more defensive/offensive depend on the state of the opponent's board / how much garbage you seem to be receiving. Saying that tetris doesn't have much depth seems flawed. A game doesn't need to have depth everywhere. Tetris, I think, has quite a bit of depth with how complex t spins and efficient downstacking is.
Timestamps for those who need it: 0:00 Intro & Disclaimer 1:06 D TIER 1:15 [D] No Skill 2:15 [D] T-Spins Shouldn't Exist 3:26 C TIER 3:33 [C] Memorization Game 5:26 B TIER 5:37 [B] Combo System 7:26 [B] Too Fast 8:30 [B] RNG Game 9:30 A TIER 9:44 [A] Downstacking is OP 11:15 S TIER 11:28 [S] Always 100% 13:26 [S] Action and Reaction
The advantage of action and reaction really only exists when the 2 players have similar pps. You can't really tune your board if you're opponent just plays faster than you can react.
Opinion with some minor background to it. I have thousands of hours in mostly modern day Tetris. And I have found that as a near top player Tetris effect connected has some of the best multiplayer modes. Each covers a base described in the video and tend to be very enjoyable. First it actually has different ways to play and I feel that is a thing no disused enough. A little variety means players can shift their play style or play the mode that they enjoy the most. Not to the mechanic portion. The zone battle does a really good job to force a more thought out reaction game. As saving or using or defending with the zone means that players have more meaning in each play. Next the score battle gives good pacing and reaction games from high level. firstly since games last for a few hundred lines it feels more that the continuous growth of score difference will lead to a victory. It also forces each player to watch the score and play more or less risky base off if they are ahead or behind. Lastly with a timer if the leading player tops out it could force mind games and a constantly changing strategy to end with a lead the last mode has most of the previous things but also adds a few skill changes that I feel are important to multiplayer Tetris. The biggest thing is that pieces can’t slide. This discourages stats like 4 wide building and cannon rushing because it is very hard to rotate a piece in the short time when the piece is in the right spot but not stuck. With these three modes all covering a major problem I would not be surprised in the future if more games start to follow these modes. If you have any questions feel free to ask and Thank you to anybody who read though this. thank you Garbo for the awesome content and Lastly sorry if anything is misspelled or has bad grammar I am writing this right before midnight after a long day.
Also, this video is awesome , never heard someone strongly talking about modern tetris this way, and its very interesting on the way you edit it. 10/10
@@GarboTetris the wacky tournament run was very much due to mental game. notkaiyon destroyed me in winners finals and almost beat me set 1 of grands and brilatas generally knows how to counter me very well. the two just got really tilted and i lucked out.
I feel like for the "Always 100%" argument, one possible way to *increase* tension overtime is by having *permanent garbage lines* acting as a tier of garbage above the ones which can be destroyed. When you are about to receive critical amounts of garbage (Say above 10 lines at once), instead of just receiving a vomit of garbage lines all at once, you instead receive a smaller amount of unremovable garbage lines, gradually minimizing your options and forcing you to adjust your strategy when you have less space to attack, using what space you have left to deal a finishing blow to the opponent. This could also help address how downstacking can pretty much return any game back into the starting, neutral state, as its efficacy naturally wanes over time. As for the "Action - Reaction" argument, I feel like some games could experiment with a *shared queue* mode where both players receive pieces from the same queue, which could be a *14-bag randomizer* rather than a 7-bag randomizer. *The first person who places their current piece receives the next piece in the queue,* which means every piece you place directly affects the future course of action that your opponent has to take in order to work with the piece they get. While this also fundamentally changes the predictable, consistent nature of 7-bag randomizer which allows for super fast Tetris gameplay, it might help make each round feel more unique, as players of differing speeds, strategies, and preferred blocks now have to worry about their opponent's strategy and skills, and how that affects their chances to receive the piece they need to finish their set up. Unfortunately, this concept might not work in an online setting, because connection latency will affect the response time of the queue, and thus make the game function weirdly for both players.
The reaction argument is partially untrue. If I see an opponent doing PC or DTC setups, I can adapt by not upstacking instead and using their garbage against them. If an opponent relies too much on upstacking tetrises (higher PPS, but low DPS, doesn't use tspins), then I can do more tspins to kick them faster (as they can't keep up the "I" pieces). I'm SS in tetrio.
Timing against a stickspin user is pretty interactive too, upstack and tank the tss and tsd then cancel the tst-tsd burst with a tetris or tspin into downstack
You wanna know something that could make garbage a little more disrupting? Instead of 1 free space, make it 2. And they can't be connected to each other. That way you can't abuse it to get a free tetris and bouce back all the damage the opponent threw at you.
Maybe this is a bit excessive, but I think garbage should just be completely empty rows. This would make taking damage way scarier since there's no simple way to deal with it, especially with your stack in the way.
That doesnt make it more disrupting. It just makes downstacking impossible. It would actually make it less disrupting since if you receive a 4 line attack, you would need 2 I pieces which requires cycling around 14 pieces (7bag system means that you can only get 1 of every piece every 7 pieces). Needing to cycle through 14 pieces is extremely slow and you can send 2 TSDs with those same pieces, meaning that just ignoring the garbage will probably be a better idea since getting to the bottom of your board will take way too long. If you mean, by not connected to eachother, that all sends will be cheese, that would just turn the game into an extremely scuffed cheese race. Or just simply apm game, since digging down will take too much time/skill. Both scenarios just buff garbage to the point that clearing it would actually be inefficient. You're basically sending hurry up garbage (garbage without holes) because downstacking is 10x less reliable and consistent. Hurry up garbage is probably the least disruptive garbage possible. You dont need to change plans by cancelling your tspin setups.
@@BettyCastella how can you skim with 2 holes not connected with each other? the idea is simply ridiculous, the goal is to nerf downstacking, not completly erase it from existence
What about the "lack of in-game tutorials about the various techniques of modern Tetris" argument? In which tier should it be on, considering that almost all modern Tetrises behave as if all players are already aware of the presence of t-spins, fully understand the SRS mechanics, they know by what rule tetrominos will appear on screen? Because at the moment, somehow more or less clearly, this is all trying to explain only in PPT games, the rest of the games will not even hint that for this information you will have to be looked for on Harddrop/Four.lol wiki's
A while back I was thinking about pacing and how it could be better. My idea was essentially a smash bros like system of garbage scaling based on how much damage you had received. Also similar to smash I thought that if you did this there could be both finishing and damaging strategies of play. For example maybe downstacking is effective at doing damage but not sending garbage so you focus on racking up damage then switching to t-spins to KO. Also thought this would work well with characters because things could be balanced differently. I never said much about this because my current understanding of the game limits me to very broad concepts but not actual implementation, but I think it’s kind of interesting.
Looking at the top 3 arguments, I agree, the reason I like Puyo more is because you accomodate garbage it never helps you, only the time advantage you might gain does garbage in Puyo allows you to take space from your opponent slow them down waiting on the reaction put them in a bad position or force a reaction, what often goes over looked besides how long a chain takes to resolve in Puyo is that the garbage animation itself is slow so even if you don't block your opponent you still have a way to control their speed everything almost every action you take in Puyo either directly or indirectly influences the decisions the opponent will make! However even in Puyo the random nature of garbage can inhibit skill, in some versions it drops in a fixed order so you can technically get to a point where you always know where it will land and by building correctly and watching your opponent you can judge whether you can take it or not instead of having to assume that you can't or risk it. You are rewarded for watching your opponent, you can punish even small weaknesses heavily and timing and decision making are rewarded more than speed, you are never rewarded with free resources for taking damage, taking damage is a punishment. Another thing that Puyo does which is good is giving both players the same pieces, this means that nobody is getting randomly screwed because if your opponent got a 12 you could have technically done the same, even if you stack differently.
at first I was going to object to the Always 100% claim, but the more I thought about it the more I realised that the only reason I watched competitive tetris was to marvel at their speed
Yeah the whole "VS Tetris is just singleplayer but your opponent sets the difficulty" is true, I play jstris on mobile and when it gets to the top 5, top 2, I have no idea what the opponents are doing - but it doesn't even matter and I'll just play to that last 2 mins and win or get killed anyways If this was puyo puyo not being able to see opponents boards would really not be viable (On mobile jstris I can only see their boards if I tap a button that opens a separate screen without my board/control buttons)
Tetris at competition level pace is demanding enough on your own board, that you cant spare the attention to glance at your opponents. Making it more interactive would require a lot of general rebalancing.
Really appreciate the comparisons to smash bros and other games, and I agree that Tetris is a poor spectator game. For those not invested in Tetris, it can be really hard to follow.
10:00 one of my friends who is now a rank X in tetrio said that he once faced a roadblock in his skill progression in tetris. he didnt know why he couldnt get better and break to the higher ranks. he said that one day he realised that he wasnt attacking enough and was just simply downstacking what the other player had sent him. once he realised this, he quickly improved (he was already a really high rank though lol) i think that speedy tetris like tetrio is really addictive and should always be kept, because the adrenaline rush is amazing lol
8:36 I think this is a stronger argument in classic tetris honestly. It has been proven that if you get alternating S and Z pieces, you will top out, no matter how well you play.
The thing I love most about the Tetris Grandmaster series is just how well that series does pacing. It gradually climbs and builds up to 100 but you never start at full speed, and yes this is including Shirase and TA Death mode. It isn't quite as fast as modern SRS Tetris, even with World Mode, but it does a brilliant job with pacing. And in Versus Modes, garbage piling isn't the only attack opposing players can utilize, with powerups and punishment attacks taking some spotlight away. That isn't to say TGM isn't without its own problems (Mihara being a notorious perfectionist is certainly a double-edged sword) but it is very refreshing and impressive in its own right, and by God is it addictive. Really the biggest drawback is the learning curve.
I like this tier list a lot, nice video! Action reaction is exactly why I love watching Puyo even though I'm a Tetris player. Just gives the competitive side so much more depth. More akin to chess, where yes there are basic openings, but you have to react to the opponent carefully and decisively. Modern Tetris relates a lot to speedrunning/racing I feel like -- which is also fun and impressive!
I dunno, I don't really have much of a problem with any of these; any argument you could make from the one player could be made from both, and at that point they cancel each other out, it just kind of becomes a matter of "who performed better", like with any game. Opener mains can die in a hole though, if you suck as soon as you get out of your opener, you're not actually good at the game; get someone to counter the opener and the person is completely useless
So here is a question. My experience with guidline based vs tetris is limited, but there is something that was intuitive to me, and yet seems not to be the case. Why is garbage not just the exact lines you cleared, save for the last piece?
Action/reaction is somewhat solved by Tetris effect's zone, since using the zone is a big enough (and important enough) action that requires either a reacting zone or a quick counter before they finish in order to ensure survival.
I think the combo table is in a very deserving tier. I actually love the combo table as it is because skilled downstacking one line at a time should be rewarded with good attack instead of nothing. The main flaw is the optimization from 4wide and strats similar to it. great tier list over all
As an NEStris player who has some experience with Modern Tetris (Sub-1m 40L Sprint is about as far as i went when I played Jstris), people complaining about RNG in Modern Tetris is so funny to me. Seriously, you guys have it good with 7-bag.
i was expecting more convincing arguments, honestly. Zone Battle broadly addresses the S-tier problems and i don't view "downstacking OP" as a negative at all. far from being limited to high-level play, it's the most common skill learned by casual tetris players, too. it makes the game more approachable and it rewards creativity.
My skill level is currently A- on tetrio, so I cant talk much about those arguments, but I do feel like the game is just fine how it is, I like how the game is intense at anytime given, and how the garbadge can scare me, like, I either take the risk to upstack a lot, or play safe by only downstacking whenever I recieve garbadge
My dad would always say that the hold function was terrible, until he tried tetris 99 marathon and would constantly ask me to remind him which button hold was
Super great vid, not only does it give strong arguments against these problems but it also gives insight to people that are trying to learn and grow as modern Tetris players
Memorization game? It IS a puzzle game, memorizing patterns and build orders is as important as any other skill and without memorizing good shapes, you won't recognize as many opportunities, recognition and visualization require a working memory of things that achieve high success, I play Puyo and consider it one of the best competitive puzzlers there are but I have learned and re-learned, memorized, forgot, then memorized some more before not only reaching a level of efficiency I can compete reasonably at and before learning better ways to parse it all by breaking the patterns down to smaller and smaller independent chunks, even recognizing the best order to build in based on memory, although the exceptions are instinct. Nothing wrong with that, puzzle games reward memory, pattern recognition and object manipulation above all else in the beginning, it has to become automatic to free you up for observational play and competitive strategy, then strategy and reaction time will be rewarded more as you face opponents who can match the rest.
Tetris Effect had an interesting mode in which random effects happen, such as flipping the board, disabling view of the queue, disabling holds, giant pieces, fractured pieces, inverting the input directions... I could ask about what if those kinds of effects could happen in competitive Tetris, where idk, you had a window of time to make a higher score than your opponent to make they be the one who takes the effect.
I have a question. So in some tetris games, if someone sends you garbage (tetrio for example) when you clear a line you dont receive any garbage unless you dont make a line clear but in some games (ppt for example) even if you clear a line, you receive garbage from an opponents attacks (unless its swap). How much do you think that effects some games in tetris?
Im not a god like you Dr Garbo, but I think the reaction argument may be different for me. I sometimes look the board of the other player and figure out if he’s going to do a big spike or not, which allows me to decide to do a setup that takes me some time to build (Maybe like 2 seconds or 3), and if the player make a good combo im forced to shut my setup and downstack to avoid instant death, specially for Tspins setups just in time when the opponent sends a good spike and im 2 pieces away from my T piece. Basically they force me to downstack, not allowing me to counter with a tetris setup or tspin setup (since im not inhuman fast to do it on top board, unless given me a bit of time) Maybe this is a bit different than your argument, idk, but I feel i need to react to the garbage my opponent sends on risk situations only (forgot to say, just on top or mid board situation) Tho its, not much interactions as you say, I think its just this
Yeah, i honestly really disagree with the action - reaction argument. Timing is super important in tetris and isnt just accepting or blocking. For example, if your opponents board is super cheesy, upstacking and building a huge spike is almost always the best decision. If your opponent has a clean field that is easy to downstack, you might be more reluctant on sending quick apm (quick apm is easy to counterspike), you might try cheesing instead. If you notice your opponent greeding and comprimising their stack, you can send quick apm to catch them off guard when they dont have a t piece ready.
Isn't there a version of Tetris where if you do better then stuff happens on the other person's screen like their controls get swapped or the piece that they're dropping gets swapped or something?
@@stevengruner4885 I would have guessed something like Tetris party because that sounds like something Tetris party would do which I've never played that game but just based off the name.
The A and S tier complaints feel misguided to me. The video tries to present them as bugs when they're clearly features, and to address them you'd have to either introduce more randomness or fundamentally change the game, both of which would be bad. I like that modern Tetris is so optimized that it's basically solved. I like that, unlike other multiplayer games like mobas or fgs, I can get on Tetris after not playing for months and everything is the same. They didn't "nerf" the t piece or some shit, or introduce new pieces, or oh look the meta has shifted because of several system changes.
Sailboat needs a nerf in tetr.io the opener is way too strong even puffypuff herself who's around mid X rank admits that she wouldn't be able to compete without the opener sailboat is too insane and really needs a nerf
12:50 Snowballs for me are the perfect answer for leaving the game early. I would eat any Ban hammer if its for the sake of not being frustrated because of something I foresaw the start of the match.
I feel like the downstacking issue can be addressed by disabling combo garbage once you clear garbage lines. It would turn garbage into an obstacle again, instead of a resource.
@@Benmf I guess I could be a little more specific. Going from no skill to moderate and even relatively high skill was a lot of fun. But I'm now at a point where I feel like the fun parts of the game aren't rewarded and I must play the game in ways I don't enjoy in order to get more wins. The reward system seems misaligned with the fun.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand that sounds like a continuation of other points honestly, what you find fun is pretty subjective and I’d wager a guess that your idea of fun probably conflicts with the “downstacking is op” argument
@@CaboozledPie It's precisely the opposite; because downstacking is OP, the game implicitly punishes you for upstacking any more than is necessary to get a few t-spin doubles and singles. Fancy setups like dt cannons, trinities, triple-double attacks, etc. are some of my favorite things in tetris, and doing them *decreases my winrate,* because ordinary t-spin doubles and singles are more efficient and can be done while downstacking through garbage.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand we actually completely agree I think I just misworded myself LOL you do find the more greedy setups more fun, which is what I expected
2:58 "This argument would be calling for a T-Spin Nerf, because Tetrises should be stronger, but in most cases, T-Spins serve as a better reward to good stacking than Tetrises" You're not even making an argument here, you're explaining the problem verbatim. T-Spins serve as a better reward because they are more efficient, sending 4 lines for only two lines cleared. I'd like to see a meta where T-Spins send 3 lines instead of 4. T-Spins *should* exist, and it's unfair to group all people in favor of a T-Spin nerf into one tier saying they shouldn't exist.
old vid but on the “downstacking is op” front, has there ever been a modern tetris game with a negative multiplier to lines sent when using garbage? something like a .75x multiplier could potentially help curb the strength of downstacking, but im nowhere near good enough to consider the ramifications (though gut instinct says it could turn the game into bumper cars where no one can really win due to a lack of garbage sent, so it could be incompatible with tetrio 4wide scaling nerfs
What if when you send garbage the garbage hole is related to where the well was when you cut? It would promote looking at the other side build, disruptions, mind games etc
4:57 yesterday I went against someone that kept doing doing the opener where you get 2 tspins to an all clear. On the last game he got it right and I almost died but I won the game, for a 3-2 (A rank)
The action/reaction argument seems a little flawed. There is interaction in the opening sequence to try to counter the opponent's opener itself. You have to learn that a TKI will prevent consecutive PCs, and that consecutive PCs will prevent middle 4W setups. It also follows that the middle 4W stops a simple TKI in its tracks. I've seen some japanese players trying ultra setups like 3-6 splits to try to optimize for reactionary play where after absorbing a few lines worth of damage, they quickly send a tetris and t-spins for damage unhindered by incoming garbage, but I concede that the interaction is limited if any compared to other competitive genres like fighting games. I feel like the PPT skill battles might be an interesting direction to take tetris if spectators were to be taken into account. (PPT skill battles are kinda wack rn though...)
Any thoughts on using different randomizer? Something like 14 bag would shake the meta quite a bit, most of the openings won't work and it would increase stacking difficulty without being absurdly detrimental like memoryless one. I would also love to see some all-spin highlevel plays, i still don't get why is that t-pice is singled out from the rest. And final thought: why is everyone so adamant to have garbage with 0 mesiness whenever possible? While being somewhat random, PPT messy garbage also nerfs downstacking, and you can't instantly send tetris back to your opponent, isn't that great?
I don't play tetris, just saw this video tweeted out. I can tell you put a lot of effort in it so take my like + comment. Interesting, I didn't know there was a crowd of people against this modern tetris. FGC is the same way with it's modern fighting games haha.
hmm, it depends on how you "fix" them and how you're defining modern tetris for example, i don't think anyone would be saying it isn't modern tetris anymore if you reduced combo damage a bit, but it's up for debate whether te:c is exactly "modern tetris" or something further than it well either way defining something by it's flaws kinda sucks so it's probably best not to think that way for the sake of improvement
In some ways "Always 100" argument sounds like "I hate my opponent making dramatic comebacks" It just happens everywhere. Just a bit more often around here. At least in my experience.
Always 100% could easily be fixed with margin time, as then the game will get more intense as the game goes on. This would even make placement much harder, as even quick singe-line clears could become fatal, making reacting to your opponents board much more important.
In my experience, margin time usually only results in more rng-affected outcomes. As the gravity/garbage increases, the main priorities are to play it safe and downstack the extra garbage received - favoring the player with the luckier garbage.
Always 100% is a great argument but I'll tell ya what, when you come back 0-2, 4 or 6 the last game is the most intense thing of your life. Either that or it's been a close game the whole time and it gets down to 1 more match
i'm kinda excited of the new tetris effect versus game tho where there's this "zone" concept where thing stop, and you don't accept garbage until a zone meter runs out (you get zone as you farm for it by sending lines), so you can use "zone" as a reaction, also the garbage distribution in that game changes as the game prolongs (it goes by phase's so the first few minutes the garbage is usually clean garbage then as it progress it becomes a cheese garbage and the zone meter run's out faster) I'm sure you already know what it is but i just thought i'd explain some mechanics of it for others who's reading this because i know it's relatively new and at the moment so you couldn't add it in this argument.. but i think to me personally the "zone" concept is really nice it gives you a lot of option on how to use it for either defensive, stalling or attacking.
I disagree with the action/reaction argument. It could just be because of the way I play, but when I start, I begin with upstacking a 2 wide. After that, one of two things happens either I complete my 2 wide set-up and attack first, or my opponent strikes first. When that happens, I "React" by downstacking.
my suggestions: add a multiplier based on how many attacks you've sent (to make the end game more intense and also higher attacks gets rewarded way more) b2b increase attacks a lot more (to add more risks and rewards) split off garbage wells deeper than 4 into wells that has a maximum depth of 4 and removing the ability for garbage wells to align (to make downstacking harder) im not a pro or anything so feel free to correct me
i feel like tetris effect connected solved most of these problems, always 100% by good players being able to fight back against factors like luck, action reaction with the zone mechanic as the most optimal way to use your zone is to use it after your opponent does, downstack being overpowered with zone rewarding upstack etc etc
just a writing note: you introduce the criteria for S tier as being fundamental to tetris and would require the core to be changed to be fixed. now I find this interesting, but you didn't mention it before and didn't penalize any arguments in the lower tiers for being non-fundamental so it was surprising and unexpected to hear it at the end. if you're thinking with that criteria in mind, you should mention it earlier IMO
I'm gonna disagree with the last argument Plonking is a playstyle based completely around timing your spikes and taking in clean garbage while canceling out the not clean based on your opponent and it generally means you play slower on average. Czsmall0402 has won the past like 6 Tetrio cups and this is essentially what he does just *really* well. He averages like 0.7 pps less than his opponents at top level and still wins mostly because he plays around when his opponents send garbage better. Yes he probably downstacks better on average too and all the other stuff but a surprising amount of it does come down to just better timing for a game as fast as Tetrio.
The only beef I have with modern Tetris is I think it’s weird that t spins are the only spin that award extra points. I think it would be interesting to see how it would effect the game if other spins were worth a little extra and could be chained for combos
for each of these I will explain why they're not s tier
1 entry in a tier
I tried it but it didn´t work? Crashed right away.
this is why you should play sprint instead
We should normalize sprint races rather than vs tetris due to all these problems. This would solve the action reaction problem and the always 100% problem. Seeing your opponent go faster will make you react and be more faster.
@@lester4532 But why wouldn't you already be going as fast as you can? I'm not very good at Tetris, so just let me know if there's some high-level thing I'm missing.
@@lester4532 Please do not take my comment as offense, more like an honest reply covering my thoughts about replacing modern versus battles with sprint races. I appreciate you take the time to come up with solutions!
...
I think sprint races do solve some problems, but they also come with some disadvantages which in my opinion weigh more than the problems they solve.
"Seeing your opponent go faster will make you react and be more faster." You could say the same thing about modern versus tetris right now. In addition, this is not necessarily the 'action-reaction problem' described in the video. If your opponent plays faster, you should play faster too. In sprint, that's what you would have done anyways.
"This would solve the always 100% problem."
I think this is a valid point. The whole battle contributes to the win condition.
Lastly, when you do a sprint race, there is no interaction with each other, other than mentally. The thing is, you can't change the state of the game of the other player. When you do a real versus battle it needs to have interaction. Your actions should have an impact on what your opponent does and can do and vice versa.
It shouldn't be a who is faster battle. It should be a battle where all skills are being tested which makes the game more versatile and more fun.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
@@NoFontNL Don't worry. No offense taken.
@@NoFontNL or maybe, we could try mixing sprint and vs? Like garbage will still be sent a KO won't finish you. Instead it will just pull back your progress.
I feel like there’s a lot more to Tetrio than just down stacking and not timing at all, which culminated in CZ, who is able to balance mindless offense and defense at the top levels. CZ makes subtle decisions based on his opponents board, which has led to CZ being able to body Firestorm when Firestorm tried to APM spam and cheese spam in different sets.
Cz handcams are the best Tetris handcams
if apm is all that matters blaarg would literally never lose
Body SuperVinlin
i don’t like tetrio who decided that squares should move when rotated
@@LeWolfYTbut they don't? O-spins are only a thing is custom games with custom settings.
I think the s tier arguments are a but over stressed, and Tetris is still a very fun, skill based and nuanced game despite them. It is easy to see some of the arguments and think that Tetris vs is a boring game with critical flaws that make it unplayable, but that is simply not true. Besides, there is always an official client or clone that fixes some of these problems and leave in others. Edit:fixed some confusing wording
center 4 wide is still busted on slower modes because nothing can offset the damage if stacked high enough. combos need a nerf in official clients. it's boring watching people c4w in ppt tournaments.
@@anversailles I'd argue it's not combos that are the problem, but c4w in particular. 3w, 2w and s4w can all be dealt with a quick, early burst of damage (which isn't too hard as a DT cannon is 11 lines), but c4w can tank 17 damage and still survive. The solution to this is, in my opinion, to make it so any mino entering row 22 or above results in a top out, so c4w can be kill spiked. That way, combo setups can be nerfed without messing with the combo table.
@@PragmaticAntithesis have you heard of stckspin
TGM's combo system would be an elegant solution to this; singles keep your combo but in order to actually add to it, you have to clear 2 or more lines, so by making it so that single combos can't send attacks
this would invalidate 4-wides in its entirety
@@dmas7749 how about singles into tetris/tspins still spike but to get an actual combo you need doubles. So there is like a variable saying if combo into tetris multiplyer
Fun fact: in 3:38 the two pages in the memorization game book are
1. Stickspin pc solutions
2. Gamushiro stacking
Just a fun thing i found
should've been stickspin and bt loop lol
@@Pakkens_Backyard bt loop is easy
gaht damn 2 years later its the same thing but more efficient versions, those are
SDPC and MS2
@@gravityshark580 lol
good lord why are stickspinners PCing
How does the Zone in Tetris Effect: Connected apply to the arguments?
I personally think that the Zone actually has potential for an interesting action-reaction interaction since you can create a lot of pressure just by building the meter up faster than your opponent, and your opponent has to react by putting a Zone meter and combo to match yours, like chain set-ups in Puyo Puyo. If you are late, you will just die to a massive line attack, or be seconds behind in building a second zone meter for the opponent to use and win the game. It can also be used as a clutch recovery tool, so that's even more interactions between players.
It also creates a deviation from being always 100% because of the execution of the Zone combos being in a tight window. It creates this moment in the match when the players are even more focused than normal so as to not mess up the combo and lose. It's also interesting to watch as a spectator because the Zone looks and sounds distinct and amazing, and catches your attention very easily.
Lastly, the Zone also heavily rewards upstacking for building Zone combos.
Honestly, building the Zone meter up almost feels like building up a special meter in a fighting game, which is always going to be a crowd pleaser. The only problem would only be how fast it is to fill a Zone in high levels of play, so maybe the rate of it filling should be reduced.
The only real problem would be that this takes rewarding fast tetris to a whole new level at high levels of play.
I'm not a very competitive tetris player, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but I am just curious here.
I was actually super interested in zone in the beginning, there's quite a few things that it fixes or helps solve in this list, mainly always 100% as you mentioned. I think the reason I don't like it is because the gameplay gets kinda monotonous, with garbage pretty much only being exchanged through big back and forth zones. But flaws aside, I'm very happy that there was an attempt to shake up the formula, and I hope that more things like zone battle happen in the future.
This was my thought too, in particular as a response to the "always 100%" problem. I just got done watching a high level zone batter today that was super engaging and fun to watch bc of the longer term strategies that zone introduces. Plus the phases of zone battle in TEC add a lot to this as well
Two of the top 3 issues were solved in Tetris Friends, more specifically the Battle mode. In Battle, garbage lines were not able to be cleared by themselves, and rather needed the player to send their own garbage lines to disappear, solving the downstacking issue. In addition, games ended after a set number of KOs, meaning that more events throughout the game would all lead up to the ending, and the pressure would be built up as you got closer to a loss. That solves the intensity issue.
Too bad Tetris Friends and Tetris Battle no longer exist.
Notris Foes exists!
tetris battle didn't even have an actual human opponent. it was not a good mode
@@pc31754 yeah but it fun (also doesn't Worldwide Combos have something like that? i think it's bombs and not flat but that doesn't send garbage either)
@Вероника Заглотова bepohnka 3arnotoba
@@pc31754 oh hey it's the boom tetris for jeff guy
I have to disagree with the no interaction one. Imo acting according to your opponent’s board is a big part of the game. Because there are choices to make offensive, defensive, or upstacking plays accordingly. If your opponent makes a missdrop when high, you want to send fast garbage, if low you want to stack up for a winning blow. When you are high and down stacking, sometimes you don’t want to send t-spins and tetrises since they are gonna be sent right back at you. I would say these strategies are the reason I am doing better than others at my speed and even apm.
I think the point is, the problem is that you can just not care about what your opponent is doing a lot of times, and the Puyo comparison he brought up is v good
yeah i was recently decked by a player going half my speed but just playing smarter than me
'qmk is downstacking, yes he's in fact downstacking' -garbo
“yes, downstacking, very good- yes very good downstacking” -garbo
as a very casual player, it's really cool to hear your insights into Tetris as a competitive game
fr tho it is
"modern tetris is all memorization" -SBSD
isnt that the account garbo used to troll the tetris subreddit
Rip Xynix. She didn’t deserve to be roasted so hard
One trick 😔
I'm not entirely convinced by the S tier arguments. I don't think a game being 100% all the time is necessarily bad-- sure, tetris matches don't really have coherent "beginning, middle, end" like most other games do. That seems fine to me though. Not all genres of games need to do that. Tetris multiplayer is still very fun nonetheless.
And the action-reaction part doesn't seem entirely true either; some decisions about being more defensive/offensive depend on the state of the opponent's board / how much garbage you seem to be receiving.
Saying that tetris doesn't have much depth seems flawed. A game doesn't need to have depth everywhere. Tetris, I think, has quite a bit of depth with how complex t spins and efficient downstacking is.
id argue that tetris absolutely has a coherent opening and mid/end
I think it's not always 100% since the pieces softdrop speed become faster the longer the game goes
Timestamps for those who need it:
0:00 Intro & Disclaimer
1:06 D TIER
1:15 [D] No Skill
2:15 [D] T-Spins Shouldn't Exist
3:26 C TIER
3:33 [C] Memorization Game
5:26 B TIER
5:37 [B] Combo System
7:26 [B] Too Fast
8:30 [B] RNG Game
9:30 A TIER
9:44 [A] Downstacking is OP
11:15 S TIER
11:28 [S] Always 100%
13:26 [S] Action and Reaction
So the solution is to play puyo right
Yep >:]
Yes, such a better and more fun game in the long run
@@insomniostudios4359 yes
The advantage of action and reaction really only exists when the 2 players have similar pps. You can't really tune your board if you're opponent just plays faster than you can react.
if memorization was the most important thing in tetris then I'd be a tetris goddess since I'm a btcannon one trick lmao
Lol that's all you need though.
How good are you at the BT PC loop?
@@andrewprahst2529 my streak was 8 loops in a row but im somewhat slow at the PC since I have to think for some patterns
Opinion with some minor background to it. I have thousands of hours in mostly modern day Tetris. And I have found that as a near top player Tetris effect connected has some of the best multiplayer modes. Each covers a base described in the video and tend to be very enjoyable. First it actually has different ways to play and I feel that is a thing no disused enough. A little variety means players can shift their play style or play the mode that they enjoy the most. Not to the mechanic portion. The zone battle does a really good job to force a more thought out reaction game. As saving or using or defending with the zone means that players have more meaning in each play. Next the score battle gives good pacing and reaction games from high level. firstly since games last for a few hundred lines it feels more that the continuous growth of score difference will lead to a victory. It also forces each player to watch the score and play more or less risky base off if they are ahead or behind. Lastly with a timer if the leading player tops out it could force mind games and a constantly changing strategy to end with a lead the last mode has most of the previous things but also adds a few skill changes that I feel are important to multiplayer Tetris. The biggest thing is that pieces can’t slide. This discourages stats like 4 wide building and cannon rushing because it is very hard to rotate a piece in the short time when the piece is in the right spot but not stuck. With these three modes all covering a major problem I would not be surprised in the future if more games start to follow these modes. If you have any questions feel free to ask and Thank you to anybody who read though this. thank you Garbo for the awesome content and Lastly sorry if anything is misspelled or has bad grammar I am writing this right before midnight after a long day.
T spins shouldn’t exist because I can’t do them yet
the only sound argument
Perfect Clears shouldn't exist because I can't do them yet
T spins are like riding a bycicle, I guess you know tspins now.
Also, this video is awesome , never heard someone strongly talking about modern tetris this way, and its very interesting on the way you edit it. 10/10
puyo puyo tetris in the background for retention lmao it worked on me
why must you bully me in vid :(
i don't hate the player, i hate dpc
@@GarboTetris the wacky tournament run was very much due to mental game. notkaiyon destroyed me in winners finals and almost beat me set 1 of grands and brilatas generally knows how to counter me very well. the two just got really tilted and i lucked out.
Wot is dpc ?
@@Benmf 8 height pc (PC that requires 20 pieces, or 2 4height pcs) continuation that basically guarantees a TSD and third PC
@@jfan3049 Ooooh alright
SS tier: tetrio sucks and nobody plays anything else
Lol 😂
Not everyone. I refuse to bail on Tetris 99 for many of the reasons listed.
I would rather play ppt if it didn't have 5000 other problems lol
I feel like for the "Always 100%" argument, one possible way to *increase* tension overtime is by having *permanent garbage lines* acting as a tier of garbage above the ones which can be destroyed. When you are about to receive critical amounts of garbage (Say above 10 lines at once), instead of just receiving a vomit of garbage lines all at once, you instead receive a smaller amount of unremovable garbage lines, gradually minimizing your options and forcing you to adjust your strategy when you have less space to attack, using what space you have left to deal a finishing blow to the opponent.
This could also help address how downstacking can pretty much return any game back into the starting, neutral state, as its efficacy naturally wanes over time.
As for the "Action - Reaction" argument, I feel like some games could experiment with a *shared queue* mode where both players receive pieces from the same queue, which could be a *14-bag randomizer* rather than a 7-bag randomizer. *The first person who places their current piece receives the next piece in the queue,* which means every piece you place directly affects the future course of action that your opponent has to take in order to work with the piece they get. While this also fundamentally changes the predictable, consistent nature of 7-bag randomizer which allows for super fast Tetris gameplay, it might help make each round feel more unique, as players of differing speeds, strategies, and preferred blocks now have to worry about their opponent's strategy and skills, and how that affects their chances to receive the piece they need to finish their set up.
Unfortunately, this concept might not work in an online setting, because connection latency will affect the response time of the queue, and thus make the game function weirdly for both players.
Garbo is a core professor of Tetris, no matter how controversial he is
the only interaction with my opponent i have is comparing their vs to their pps to tell if it's a strider or cheeser and some rare timing
The reaction argument is partially untrue. If I see an opponent doing PC or DTC setups, I can adapt by not upstacking instead and using their garbage against them. If an opponent relies too much on upstacking tetrises (higher PPS, but low DPS, doesn't use tspins), then I can do more tspins to kick them faster (as they can't keep up the "I" pieces). I'm SS in tetrio.
I think the same even tho I'm U rank
@@VichevJr arent u that guy in ktros’ comment haha
Timing against a stickspin user is pretty interactive too, upstack and tank the tss and tsd then cancel the tst-tsd burst with a tetris or tspin into downstack
@@natsuki8845 Yes 😂🤣
Very sound argument me thinks
You wanna know something that could make garbage a little more disrupting? Instead of 1 free space, make it 2. And they can't be connected to each other. That way you can't abuse it to get a free tetris and bouce back all the damage the opponent threw at you.
Maybe this is a bit excessive, but I think garbage should just be completely empty rows. This would make taking damage way scarier since there's no simple way to deal with it, especially with your stack in the way.
That doesnt make it more disrupting. It just makes downstacking impossible. It would actually make it less disrupting since if you receive a 4 line attack, you would need 2 I pieces which requires cycling around 14 pieces (7bag system means that you can only get 1 of every piece every 7 pieces). Needing to cycle through 14 pieces is extremely slow and you can send 2 TSDs with those same pieces, meaning that just ignoring the garbage will probably be a better idea since getting to the bottom of your board will take way too long.
If you mean, by not connected to eachother, that all sends will be cheese, that would just turn the game into an extremely scuffed cheese race. Or just simply apm game, since digging down will take too much time/skill.
Both scenarios just buff garbage to the point that clearing it would actually be inefficient. You're basically sending hurry up garbage (garbage without holes) because downstacking is 10x less reliable and consistent. Hurry up garbage is probably the least disruptive garbage possible. You dont need to change plans by cancelling your tspin setups.
@@jfan3049 You can just skim to downstack
@@BettyCastella how can you skim with 2 holes not connected with each other? the idea is simply ridiculous, the goal is to nerf downstacking, not completly erase it from existence
I think the problem with too powerful garbage is that its not worth the effort trying to clear it and instead focus on more burst damage to win
What about the "lack of in-game tutorials about the various techniques of modern Tetris" argument? In which tier should it be on, considering that almost all modern Tetrises behave as if all players are already aware of the presence of t-spins, fully understand the SRS mechanics, they know by what rule tetrominos will appear on screen? Because at the moment, somehow more or less clearly, this is all trying to explain only in PPT games, the rest of the games will not even hint that for this information you will have to be looked for on Harddrop/Four.lol wiki's
A while back I was thinking about pacing and how it could be better. My idea was essentially a smash bros like system of garbage scaling based on how much damage you had received. Also similar to smash I thought that if you did this there could be both finishing and damaging strategies of play. For example maybe downstacking is effective at doing damage but not sending garbage so you focus on racking up damage then switching to t-spins to KO. Also thought this would work well with characters because things could be balanced differently. I never said much about this because my current understanding of the game limits me to very broad concepts but not actual implementation, but I think it’s kind of interesting.
Looking at the top 3 arguments, I agree, the reason I like Puyo more is because you accomodate garbage it never helps you, only the time advantage you might gain does garbage in Puyo allows you to take space from your opponent slow them down waiting on the reaction put them in a bad position or force a reaction, what often goes over looked besides how long a chain takes to resolve in Puyo is that the garbage animation itself is slow so even if you don't block your opponent you still have a way to control their speed everything almost every action you take in Puyo either directly or indirectly influences the decisions the opponent will make! However even in Puyo the random nature of garbage can inhibit skill, in some versions it drops in a fixed order so you can technically get to a point where you always know where it will land and by building correctly and watching your opponent you can judge whether you can take it or not instead of having to assume that you can't or risk it. You are rewarded for watching your opponent, you can punish even small weaknesses heavily and timing and decision making are rewarded more than speed, you are never rewarded with free resources for taking damage, taking damage is a punishment. Another thing that Puyo does which is good is giving both players the same pieces, this means that nobody is getting randomly screwed because if your opponent got a 12 you could have technically done the same, even if you stack differently.
at first I was going to object to the Always 100% claim, but the more I thought about it the more I realised that the only reason I watched competitive tetris was to marvel at their speed
I think that's still pretty cool. Even I still can't play at that speed yet
Yeah the whole "VS Tetris is just singleplayer but your opponent sets the difficulty" is true, I play jstris on mobile and when it gets to the top 5, top 2, I have no idea what the opponents are doing - but it doesn't even matter and I'll just play to that last 2 mins and win or get killed anyways
If this was puyo puyo not being able to see opponents boards would really not be viable
(On mobile jstris I can only see their boards if I tap a button that opens a separate screen without my board/control buttons)
Tetris at competition level pace is demanding enough on your own board, that you cant spare the attention to glance at your opponents. Making it more interactive would require a lot of general rebalancing.
Really appreciate the comparisons to smash bros and other games, and I agree that Tetris is a poor spectator game. For those not invested in Tetris, it can be really hard to follow.
:O the legend himself
sirjeivus is alive!
:O
It’s like chess, if you don’t understand what’s happening you’ll be unenthusiastically excited about an outcome
10:00 one of my friends who is now a rank X in tetrio said that he once faced a roadblock in his skill progression in tetris. he didnt know why he couldnt get better and break to the higher ranks. he said that one day he realised that he wasnt attacking enough and was just simply downstacking what the other player had sent him. once he realised this, he quickly improved (he was already a really high rank though lol)
i think that speedy tetris like tetrio is really addictive and should always be kept, because the adrenaline rush is amazing lol
This absolute madman just made an E in a tier list
8:36 I think this is a stronger argument in classic tetris honestly. It has been proven that if you get alternating S and Z pieces, you will top out, no matter how well you play.
People can make tier lists about almost everything.
I'll make a tierlist tomorrow about how long I should hold my poop after the first morning coffee
there is no wrong tetris. Each tetris has their own unique things
The thing I love most about the Tetris Grandmaster series is just how well that series does pacing. It gradually climbs and builds up to 100 but you never start at full speed, and yes this is including Shirase and TA Death mode. It isn't quite as fast as modern SRS Tetris, even with World Mode, but it does a brilliant job with pacing. And in Versus Modes, garbage piling isn't the only attack opposing players can utilize, with powerups and punishment attacks taking some spotlight away. That isn't to say TGM isn't without its own problems (Mihara being a notorious perfectionist is certainly a double-edged sword) but it is very refreshing and impressive in its own right, and by God is it addictive. Really the biggest drawback is the learning curve.
I like this tier list a lot, nice video! Action reaction is exactly why I love watching Puyo even though I'm a Tetris player. Just gives the competitive side so much more depth. More akin to chess, where yes there are basic openings, but you have to react to the opponent carefully and decisively. Modern Tetris relates a lot to speedrunning/racing I feel like -- which is also fun and impressive!
Imagine a mode where the speed limit changes as the game progresses
That sounds crazy
Nah bro sounds so weird there's no way that exists
that sounds hilarious, actually
I dunno, I don't really have much of a problem with any of these; any argument you could make from the one player could be made from both, and at that point they cancel each other out, it just kind of becomes a matter of "who performed better", like with any game.
Opener mains can die in a hole though, if you suck as soon as you get out of your opener, you're not actually good at the game; get someone to counter the opener and the person is completely useless
So here is a question. My experience with guidline based vs tetris is limited, but there is something that was intuitive to me, and yet seems not to be the case. Why is garbage not just the exact lines you cleared, save for the last piece?
Action/reaction is somewhat solved by Tetris effect's zone, since using the zone is a big enough (and important enough) action that requires either a reacting zone or a quick counter before they finish in order to ensure survival.
I think the combo table is in a very deserving tier. I actually love the combo table as it is because skilled downstacking one line at a time should be rewarded with good attack instead of nothing. The main flaw is the optimization from 4wide and strats similar to it. great tier list over all
As an NEStris player who has some experience with Modern Tetris (Sub-1m 40L Sprint is about as far as i went when I played Jstris), people complaining about RNG in Modern Tetris is so funny to me. Seriously, you guys have it good with 7-bag.
i was expecting more convincing arguments, honestly. Zone Battle broadly addresses the S-tier problems and i don't view "downstacking OP" as a negative at all. far from being limited to high-level play, it's the most common skill learned by casual tetris players, too. it makes the game more approachable and it rewards creativity.
Moreover, it is tetris at its core. The original singleplayer version consisted of nothing else. By all accounts it SHOULD be the core.
As a VS player who cant get a sub 1 min on keyboard and a sub 55 on stick. I think that everything above B tier is fair to argue
Wake up babe, new Garbo video
I disagree with the notion that it's not fun to watch. The fact that it's always 100% makes for more nail-biting, edge-of-your-seat action.
One solution for the downstacking problem could be making garbage progressively messier towards the end game (or the opposite).
have you seen tetris effect: connected phases
@@Master-dy7sh nope. Does this game have that?
@@rafaelgabrielgarlinidal-bo9496 no it's exclusive to te:c although it's very demanding on equipment anad costs money
My skill level is currently A- on tetrio, so I cant talk much about those arguments, but I do feel like the game is just fine how it is, I like how the game is intense at anytime given, and how the garbadge can scare me, like, I either take the risk to upstack a lot, or play safe by only downstacking whenever I recieve garbadge
My dad would always say that the hold function was terrible, until he tried tetris 99 marathon and would constantly ask me to remind him which button hold was
Super great vid, not only does it give strong arguments against these problems but it also gives insight to people that are trying to learn and grow as modern Tetris players
This is really well made, good work!
Memorization game? It IS a puzzle game, memorizing patterns and build orders is as important as any other skill and without memorizing good shapes, you won't recognize as many opportunities, recognition and visualization require a working memory of things that achieve high success, I play Puyo and consider it one of the best competitive puzzlers there are but I have learned and re-learned, memorized, forgot, then memorized some more before not only reaching a level of efficiency I can compete reasonably at and before learning better ways to parse it all by breaking the patterns down to smaller and smaller independent chunks, even recognizing the best order to build in based on memory, although the exceptions are instinct. Nothing wrong with that, puzzle games reward memory, pattern recognition and object manipulation above all else in the beginning, it has to become automatic to free you up for observational play and competitive strategy, then strategy and reaction time will be rewarded more as you face opponents who can match the rest.
this is well explained and presentation was clean, gonna start play Tetris more now.
Tetris Effect had an interesting mode in which random effects happen, such as flipping the board, disabling view of the queue, disabling holds, giant pieces, fractured pieces, inverting the input directions... I could ask about what if those kinds of effects could happen in competitive Tetris, where idk, you had a window of time to make a higher score than your opponent to make they be the one who takes the effect.
I have a question. So in some tetris games, if someone sends you garbage (tetrio for example) when you clear a line you dont receive any garbage unless you dont make a line clear but in some games (ppt for example) even if you clear a line, you receive garbage from an opponents attacks (unless its swap). How much do you think that effects some games in tetris?
Im not a god like you Dr Garbo, but I think the reaction argument may be different for me.
I sometimes look the board of the other player and figure out if he’s going to do a big spike or not, which allows me to decide to do a setup that takes me some time to build (Maybe like 2 seconds or 3), and if the player make a good combo im forced to shut my setup and downstack to avoid instant death, specially for Tspins setups just in time when the opponent sends a good spike and im 2 pieces away from my T piece.
Basically they force me to downstack, not allowing me to counter with a tetris setup or tspin setup (since im not inhuman fast to do it on top board, unless given me a bit of time)
Maybe this is a bit different than your argument, idk, but I feel i need to react to the garbage my opponent sends on risk situations only (forgot to say, just on top or mid board situation)
Tho its, not much interactions as you say, I think its just this
Yeah, i honestly really disagree with the action - reaction argument. Timing is super important in tetris and isnt just accepting or blocking.
For example, if your opponents board is super cheesy, upstacking and building a huge spike is almost always the best decision. If your opponent has a clean field that is easy to downstack, you might be more reluctant on sending quick apm (quick apm is easy to counterspike), you might try cheesing instead. If you notice your opponent greeding and comprimising their stack, you can send quick apm to catch them off guard when they dont have a t piece ready.
Isn't there a version of Tetris where if you do better then stuff happens on the other person's screen like their controls get swapped or the piece that they're dropping gets swapped or something?
wtf
that might be tgm with it's items, idk though
@@stevengruner4885 I would have guessed something like Tetris party because that sounds like something Tetris party would do which I've never played that game but just based off the name.
i saw some dude on twitter say "what if we nerfed combos but nerfed t spins? wouldn't that be a great idea?"
the deal with the devil guy? i remember that
Yep, I'm here too
The A and S tier complaints feel misguided to me. The video tries to present them as bugs when they're clearly features, and to address them you'd have to either introduce more randomness or fundamentally change the game, both of which would be bad.
I like that modern Tetris is so optimized that it's basically solved. I like that, unlike other multiplayer games like mobas or fgs, I can get on Tetris after not playing for months and everything is the same. They didn't "nerf" the t piece or some shit, or introduce new pieces, or oh look the meta has shifted because of several system changes.
zone battle boss attacks against your final argument: ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT
Sailboat needs a nerf in tetr.io the opener is way too strong even puffypuff herself who's around mid X rank admits that she wouldn't be able to compete without the opener sailboat is too insane and really needs a nerf
12:50 Snowballs for me are the perfect answer for leaving the game early. I would eat any Ban hammer if its for the sake of not being frustrated because of something I foresaw the start of the match.
I feel like the downstacking issue can be addressed by disabling combo garbage once you clear garbage lines. It would turn garbage into an obstacle again, instead of a resource.
Take S Tier and move it behind C tier and the list will be somewhat accurate.
My biggest problem with tetris isn't on this list, although you actually talked about it a lot. I dislike that tetris gets less fun as I improve.
Huh, its the opposite for me
@@Benmf I guess I could be a little more specific. Going from no skill to moderate and even relatively high skill was a lot of fun. But I'm now at a point where I feel like the fun parts of the game aren't rewarded and I must play the game in ways I don't enjoy in order to get more wins. The reward system seems misaligned with the fun.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand that sounds like a continuation of other points honestly, what you find fun is pretty subjective and I’d wager a guess that your idea of fun probably conflicts with the “downstacking is op” argument
@@CaboozledPie It's precisely the opposite; because downstacking is OP, the game implicitly punishes you for upstacking any more than is necessary to get a few t-spin doubles and singles. Fancy setups like dt cannons, trinities, triple-double attacks, etc. are some of my favorite things in tetris, and doing them *decreases my winrate,* because ordinary t-spin doubles and singles are more efficient and can be done while downstacking through garbage.
@@ScaryPurpleAmpersand we actually completely agree I think I just misworded myself LOL
you do find the more greedy setups more fun, which is what I expected
The pacing is the reason why I stick with Classic Tetris and play only Marathon in Modern, it's too fast.
2:58 "This argument would be calling for a T-Spin Nerf, because Tetrises should be stronger, but in most cases, T-Spins serve as a better reward to good stacking than Tetrises"
You're not even making an argument here, you're explaining the problem verbatim. T-Spins serve as a better reward because they are more efficient, sending 4 lines for only two lines cleared.
I'd like to see a meta where T-Spins send 3 lines instead of 4. T-Spins *should* exist, and it's unfair to group all people in favor of a T-Spin nerf into one tier saying they shouldn't exist.
old vid but on the “downstacking is op” front, has there ever been a modern tetris game with a negative multiplier to lines sent when using garbage? something like a .75x multiplier could potentially help curb the strength of downstacking, but im nowhere near good enough to consider the ramifications (though gut instinct says it could turn the game into bumper cars where no one can really win due to a lack of garbage sent, so it could be incompatible with tetrio 4wide scaling nerfs
What if when you send garbage the garbage hole is related to where the well was when you cut? It would promote looking at the other side build, disruptions, mind games etc
4:57 yesterday I went against someone that kept doing doing the opener where you get 2 tspins to an all clear. On the last game he got it right and I almost died but I won the game, for a 3-2 (A rank)
The action/reaction argument seems a little flawed.
There is interaction in the opening sequence to try to counter the opponent's opener itself. You have to learn that a TKI will prevent consecutive PCs, and that consecutive PCs will prevent middle 4W setups. It also follows that the middle 4W stops a simple TKI in its tracks.
I've seen some japanese players trying ultra setups like 3-6 splits to try to optimize for reactionary play where after absorbing a few lines worth of damage, they quickly send a tetris and t-spins for damage unhindered by incoming garbage, but I concede that the interaction is limited if any compared to other competitive genres like fighting games. I feel like the PPT skill battles might be an interesting direction to take tetris if spectators were to be taken into account. (PPT skill battles are kinda wack rn though...)
Any thoughts on using different randomizer? Something like 14 bag would shake the meta quite a bit, most of the openings won't work and it would increase stacking difficulty without being absurdly detrimental like memoryless one. I would also love to see some all-spin highlevel plays, i still don't get why is that t-pice is singled out from the rest. And final thought: why is everyone so adamant to have garbage with 0 mesiness whenever possible? While being somewhat random, PPT messy garbage also nerfs downstacking, and you can't instantly send tetris back to your opponent, isn't that great?
idk man theres just something so satisfying about loading up tetrio and spamming PCO and just deleting the other person from existence its so funny
I would like to hear some ideas for solutions for the a and s tier Problems of the game
I don't play tetris, just saw this video tweeted out. I can tell you put a lot of effort in it so take my like + comment. Interesting, I didn't know there was a crowd of people against this modern tetris. FGC is the same way with it's modern fighting games haha.
_Tricky Towers_ seem to fix most of those problems. Someone just need to make a competitive version of it.
that game fixes these problems because they're completely different games, its barely even tetris
Couldn’t one argue that the flaws of modern Tetris are what makes modern Tetris? Eliminate the flaws and change the game completely.
hmm, it depends on how you "fix" them and how you're defining modern tetris
for example, i don't think anyone would be saying it isn't modern tetris anymore if you reduced combo damage a bit, but it's up for debate whether te:c is exactly "modern tetris" or something further than it
well either way defining something by it's flaws kinda sucks so it's probably best not to think that way for the sake of improvement
In some ways "Always 100" argument sounds like "I hate my opponent making dramatic comebacks"
It just happens everywhere. Just a bit more often around here. At least in my experience.
Fantastic video Garbo. Super informative.
inf ds when they meet top players sending them 50 lines in 2 seconds
What do you think about Tetris Effect?
It’s slower so not pro’s choice, but it might just not a bad thing as the video mentioned.
Always 100% could easily be fixed with margin time, as then the game will get more intense as the game goes on. This would even make placement much harder, as even quick singe-line clears could become fatal, making reacting to your opponents board much more important.
In my experience, margin time usually only results in more rng-affected outcomes. As the gravity/garbage increases, the main priorities are to play it safe and downstack the extra garbage received - favoring the player with the luckier garbage.
Always 100% is a great argument but I'll tell ya what, when you come back 0-2, 4 or 6 the last game is the most intense thing of your life. Either that or it's been a close game the whole time and it gets down to 1 more match
modern tetris is too sweaty
i'm kinda excited of the new tetris effect versus game tho where there's this "zone" concept where thing stop, and you don't accept garbage until a zone meter runs out (you get zone as you farm for it by sending lines), so you can use "zone" as a reaction, also the garbage distribution in that game changes as the game prolongs (it goes by phase's so the first few minutes the garbage is usually clean garbage then as it progress it becomes a cheese garbage and the zone meter run's out faster) I'm sure you already know what it is but i just thought i'd explain some mechanics of it for others who's reading this because i know it's relatively new and at the moment so you couldn't add it in this argument.. but i think to me personally the "zone" concept is really nice it gives you a lot of option on how to use it for either defensive, stalling or attacking.
I always thought of tetris as a stamina game, i dont really feel different playing pvp than solo
Congrats on 5k subs garbocan_
I disagree with the action/reaction argument. It could just be because of the way I play, but when I start, I begin with upstacking a 2 wide. After that, one of two things happens either I complete my 2 wide set-up and attack first, or my opponent strikes first. When that happens, I "React" by downstacking.
my suggestions:
add a multiplier based on how many attacks you've sent (to make the end game more intense and also higher attacks gets rewarded way more)
b2b increase attacks a lot more (to add more risks and rewards)
split off garbage wells deeper than 4 into wells that has a maximum depth of 4 and removing the ability for garbage wells to align (to make downstacking harder)
im not a pro or anything so feel free to correct me
Where is the PC guide?
watch mine instead
@@fesh smolfeesh pc expert guide??
i feel like tetris effect connected solved most of these problems, always 100% by good players being able to fight back against factors like luck, action reaction with the zone mechanic as the most optimal way to use your zone is to use it after your opponent does, downstack being overpowered with zone rewarding upstack etc etc
just a writing note: you introduce the criteria for S tier as being fundamental to tetris and would require the core to be changed to be fixed. now I find this interesting, but you didn't mention it before and didn't penalize any arguments in the lower tiers for being non-fundamental so it was surprising and unexpected to hear it at the end. if you're thinking with that criteria in mind, you should mention it earlier IMO
My biggest gripe with the game is that the garbage is too easy my biggest wish is for garbage to be 100% cheese
Yes officer this comment right here.
@@ravins4786 blashphemy how can someone not agree
I'm gonna disagree with the last argument
Plonking is a playstyle based completely around timing your spikes and taking in clean garbage while canceling out the not clean based on your opponent and it generally means you play slower on average.
Czsmall0402 has won the past like 6 Tetrio cups and this is essentially what he does just *really* well.
He averages like 0.7 pps less than his opponents at top level and still wins mostly because he plays around when his opponents send garbage better.
Yes he probably downstacks better on average too and all the other stuff but a surprising amount of it does come down to just better timing for a game as fast as Tetrio.
The only beef I have with modern Tetris is I think it’s weird that t spins are the only spin that award extra points. I think it would be interesting to see how it would effect the game if other spins were worth a little extra and could be chained for combos