Boating with Brexit
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- Опубликовано: 26 мар 2021
- THERE IS ANOTHER UPDATED VERSION ON THE SCREEN NEXT DOOR TO THIS - IT HAS CORRECTIONS - I made errors with the EU status of some Med countries!
FOR THE LATEST UPDATE ON ENTERING FRANCE BY BOAT GO TO www.michaelbriant.com
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Thanks for the update. Made perfect sense to me and seems to be very accurate. It is worth noting I have discovered that bringing a boat back to the UK from Europe that you have purchased will be subject to 20% VAT regardless of whether you have paid VAT in Europe or is exempt. Thank you Brexiteers, another winner!!
Yes Malcolm that makes sense but if it was once UK VAT paid then It should be OK so long as you can prove it with paperwork
@@SailingGently I looked at buying a 1951 motor yacht so Pre vat and still Uk customs wanted 20%!!!
I just imported my 50 year old classic car into the UK (from Canada) and was exempt duty and VAT (and also exempt any form of MOT). Pity they don't treat old boats as classics in the same way.
I can imagine - but normally the valuation is pretty low -
@@SailingGently I'm afraid it is even worse than that. If you bought your boat in the UK and paid UK VAT and subsequently sailed away to the EU (or anywhere else probably) and stayed away for more than three years you will now be obliged to pay 20% vat on it AGAIN unless you return before 31st December 2021 (although I believe there a 6 month extension has been granted because of the covid situation). The waiver that had hitherto been granted to returning boats will no longer be available.
The Cruising Association is actively lobbying HMRC about this and is also negotiating with various Schengen countries regarding the 90/180 issue. Check out theca.org.uk
Love your brutal honesty... the kind that only the English can deliver! Please continue to share your experiences!
Thank you Ian. Glad it was helpful
I think everything you have said is spot on.
Very helpful advice - 10 out of 10 for effort
Jamie thank you... I got a couple of things wrong which I am going to correct but it was sobering to look at the problems
The boat is on the hard in a little private marina down the River Arno. The owner of the marina is so nice I'm sure he will help.
Yes Steve,
that sounds good.. The right people to ask are the authorities but that makes them aware of the boat and that might not be good
Another really informative video, so thank you for that. Please keep them coming!
Think I saw another sailing channel *Sailing ABSea* and they are cruising Turkey at the moment.
Apparently they did a deal with a Marina Group (encompassing 10 I think) in Turkey for a 12 month mooring but have access to all the other marinas which sounded a great deal to me.
If I had to would end up in Tangiers I just love that City, people out there are so nice.
Russ hi,
Yes, I agree Tangier is a wonderful place - I even thought about living there once.
Turkey is very tourist friendly and I would not be at all surprised if there were marina discounts as there are with Premier marinas in the UK..
thank you for your time again.
Glad you liked it Stuwy - thank you for watching
You can also look at Tivat, Montenegro. They have many safe marinas in the vicinity, dry docking facilities, boat monitoring services, an international airport within 3 Km from the town, they are not in the EU, but their currency is the Euro.
The area is also great for sailing. From the south western tip of Greece, all the way to Croatia, and even Venice for the fireworks fiesta in July, or a weekend in the spring.
Thank you for that. I have not been there but it sounds good -
Your content is superb. I’m soaking up so much great info. Many thanks!
Rich (Plymouth, UK)
So pleased you find it useful Rich. Thank you for watching
I have never sailed and obliviously know nothing on the subject, but this video was a joy to watch...
That is so nice of you Michael - tray sailing - boating - in any form - it really is fun and pleasurable
Thank you so much. This was a really eye opener. I’m over in Japan and looking at buying a used sailboat kept at a marina on the west coast Greece year-around by the current owner. The 90/ 180 makes this very inconvenient. I need to rethink buying this boat. The Caribbean maybe an answer. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge.
Glad it was helpful! Air fares to places like Martinique are less than to Greece if you can go via Paris
Thanks for your uploads, its fantastic to get some clear and sensible advice
My pleasure Mark. So pleased you found it useful
One issue that wasn't mentioned re the 18 months was the vessel registration country . Eg if your vessel's home port was Dublin as opposed to Leith what rules then apply or does it ultimately come down to the nationality of the owner ?
I think, Thomas, home port is a sort of non legal term. It is the registration document of the vessel - which often mentions a home port but this is not necessarily the the port in which the vessel lives- that is important.
If the registration document is from an EU country then there is no limit to the time the vessel can stay in EU waters. If the registration document is from a country outside the EU then every 18 months it must leave the EU waters for 24 hours....
An absolute shambles of a video. I enjoyed it immensely. Thanks for the good airing. Spotted the Vat trap in the comments too.
Glad you enjoyed it Lubber... So pleased you liked it and found it useful!
Very informative and thank you. In terms of the 90/180 day restriction, I am having a boat built in Turkey (Nordhavn 41) to bring it to the UK over 1 or 2 summers. If for example, you sign in and out of Italy and do a long passage to Corsica or Spain, does the clock stop in international waters thereby not counted against the 90 day allowance?
Clive hello - glad you found the video useful. Yes the moment you sign out of an EU country and get your passport stamped out the 'clock' stops ticking all the time you are at sea between countries even if the next country it is EU.. On arrival you will be stamped in again and the clock will start... However this does not apply to passages between ports in the same country as far as I can see
@@SailingGently Many thanks for this clarification. Clive
Excellent video I am sorry I can only like it once.
I am going to order some of your guides as soon as I can.
Thanks for your clear advice and guidance.
Thank you Skippy - Glad you liked it once!!
Thank you for this. Pretty much a summary of what i have been researching and looking into.
Martin hello,
Yes it is not easy to get the facts and takes a bit of research -thank you
Wonderfully informative presentation. Very helpful & interesting. Thank you & Fair winds!
Glad it was helpful! Jim I am grateful to you for watching
What about all those 2nd hand dinghies on the south coast. Can they be used for British immigrants going in the opposite direction????
You always provide extremely useful information, thank you!
Glad it was helpful! - thank you for watching
Does anybody know what the rules regarding boats and VAT are now? I have heard that if you take your boat to the Med you have to pay VAT on return to the UK - I don’t think even the RYA know ?????
I have heard that after 3 years out of the country you have to pay VAT again on 2nd hand value.. I think it is possible but unfair if you can prove VAT was paid in the first place - The reason I do not subscribe to the RYA is they should be all over this like a rash with our government and stop putting almost 100% of their effort and resources into racing and training courses... Well that's my opinion
The 90/180 rule is not an EU restriction, but applies to the Schengen area. Non-Schengen countries in the EU are Croatia, Romania, Cyprus, Bulgaria and the Republic of Ireland. This means that you can spend an extra 90 days in each of the non-Schengen countries in addition to the Schengen countries. Croatia is a particularly good sailing area.
Joe thank you so much - I confess I only concentrated on countries around the English Channel and the Mediterranean. I agree Croatia and it's islands are a lovely cruising country - I delivered a boat to Split many years ago - only problem for cruising boats is it is very expensive and has some tax/import rules that need to be read and understood before deciding to keep your boat there long term - I think.
Croatia has also become overcrowded, especially on "Yacht Week". Four hour queue at the fuel dock at Split on an August Friday. Loved the place but I would only go back out of season. Otherwise, the Greek Islands are as beautiful with far fewer boats around.
You didn’t mention Albania .. non EU , Croatia non schengen at the moment ,
Cyprus isn’t British .. we live there and the north isn’t Turkish ! It is not recognized by any country except Turkey .
Phil hi, thank you for the feedback. Just done a re-edit and corrected these issues. they are difficult to address properly but 2nd edition is better I think / hope!
I've just come across your RUclips account with this article. Very useful information. I've had a 1974 Rival 32 now for ten years exactly. Would I now be liable to pay VAT on it?
... and I've just subscribed to you.
thank you for subscribing - I am grateful.
Your lovely Rival is not subject to any VAT. There is a cutoff date of January 1st 1985 before which HMC&E consider all boats this date to be VAT paid.
In any case VAT is only liable on boats that were purchased from an EU owner in an EU country.
If your Rival is in the EU and you purchased it from a non UK person you bring it back to the UK & I think there is still no issue provided you do that within the next three years as there is an amnesty to allow UK owners of foreign purchased boats to get them 'home' free of VAT.
Hi thanks very much for this, love your channel. Please can you reveal your points of information for navigating international relations bureaucracy since things seem to be changing a lot lately. It can be hard to keep up! Thanks
Hi Danial,
Well the UK stuff is all online on the UK Gov web sites but as I was a Spanish resident and I moved to France and am now a French resident who purchased a boat last year in the UK and took her to Boulogne during the early days of the pandemic I made myself as aware as possible of all the rules'. No choice. I use Facebook for a lot then confirm it by asking experts or Gov sites - social media is sometimes so wrong it's breath-taking!
@@SailingGently Thanks! much appreciated
Really informative, well delivered, and I never knew about the Azores
Terry hi, What was EU really didn't matter to us at all until last Jan 1... glad you found it interesting - thank you
Hi Michael great videos.
I was looking to get into sailing. I have been looking to buy a boat but I have zero experience.
I have seen a boat in Sweden on one of the online boat portals. I think the boat is a good price. I want to keep it in one of the Mediterranean moorings in you videos. Will I need to pay uk vat on this boat if the boat has EU vat paid.
Where do I need to register the boat Spain or UK. I am uk resident.
Finally is there a consultancy service that I can pay to take care of all the legal and other formalities of buying a boat.
Mohammed hello,
So pleased you like the videos - Yes if you buy a boat outside the UK and bring it to the UK you will have to pay VAT on it 99% of the time. Normally you would register the boat in the country in which the owner lives - for you the UK - either Small Ships Register or Part 1.... Not sure it is a good idea to buy a boat that is located a long way from where you want to sail - keep her... If your plan is to sail in the Med and that's a vast place, then I would try to find one already there... Sweden to Gibraltar is a long long way and would be challenging for an experienced skipper. Have a look at the Med and decide where intersects you then find brokers locally..
Good luck with your plans
The description says the 2nd edition is more accurate but this is only a few days old and I can't find another edition?
Alan hello,
Sorry not to have been clear... This one is the latest - just some Eastern Med stuff altered
ruclips.net/video/SQMNCPyh1fw/видео.html
Hello Michael
Fantastic video, which has spawned some useful ideas for the future.
One question: I read recently that the Spanish authorities had stopped recognising RYA qualifications. Have you seen it heard anything along these lines?
If I remember correctly, it even included the ICC.
Martin hi,
The Spanish authorities have never recognised RYA or ICC certificates. Charter companies in Spain do - it is their method of ensuring potential charterers have sufficient experience.. If you want to own and sail a Spanish registered boat then you need Spanish qualifications. You can also like me, be a resident of Spain and own a British registered boat and sail it yourself with no qualifications once you have paid the Spanish import taxes
Fantastic Michael...nobody is really talking about this. Thankfully my grandfather was born in Borrisokane (Buiríos Uí Chéin), Co. Tipperary, Ireland so may get an Irish passport. All the best and stay safe my friend.
Really wish I was of Irish descent
@@SailingGently The greatest tragedy of life is that people cant understand ....my great, great, great, great, great,great, great, great, great, Grandfather was YOURS too ..my brother !!
Yes you're entitled to an Irish passport if your grandparents were born in Ireland. So welcome back to the family
Unfortunately I believe that qualification for an Irish passport only goes back to your Grandparents. Hopefully if Scotland gains independence we can rejoin the EU.
Last time we were in Corfu, boats used to go across to Albania (within sight) to get out of the EU, sign in, then come back. Would also be worth mentioning that RYA state that if UK boats can prove VAT paid, and were in EU waters on 31Dec 2020, then they do not have to leave after 18 months, and can remain indefinitely. 90/180 days for owners & crew does apply though. Unfortunately, returning to UK is much more problematic, as currently IR stance is that after 3 years absence, UK requires VAT be paid again on entering UK.
PK thank you for that - really interesting and I did not know about the VAT situation and 18 months nor the problem of 3 years for UK boats with VAT paid - I must be careful of my boat!
I have tried to keep the video fairly general and just completed a revised version correcting some issues - It is such a complex tax problem now that I a scared of giving definitive advice in case I am wrong!
Excellent info, especially your comments on Turkey. Since we mostly sail in Greece this would be a good option. My main concern is the refugee issue (don't fancy being borded in the middle of the night) or is this just an issue affecting some parts of Turkey/Greece that get media headlines. Also given that Turkey/Greece aren't the best of buddies are there any issues traveling between them.
Hi Ian,
I think there has always be tensions between Turkey and Greece but I used to cross between the two fairly easily... The refugee problem seems to be all over Europe - I think the officials of both countries will treat you courteously so long as you do not have an Afgan in the heads!
Enjoy your Greece sailing
@@SailingGently ha ha,, I'll be looking into the heads when coming back on board from now on. Another thing to check before setting off.
Hi, great video. I think that the 90/180 rule is valid for all other countries too. So if you exceed 90 days in Turkey or Marco you will have the same problem as in EU.
Pawel hi,
Turkey has it's own rules and is not part of the EU so nothing has changed for them.. There is a large community of liveaboards in Turkey so it must be possible - But I take your point
I Know marocco has a 90 day rule too
@@ab-ym3bf I am not totally surprised - I think most countries limit the time visitors may stay and do not even accept boats presence for long periods as the EU does with it's 18 month rule
@@ab-ym3bf I am not surprised - Pawel - But I think you can leave the boat there longer but that needs checking as well and may depend on your passport!
Great explanation Michael, quite sobering! Thanks very much.
Graham hello,
So pleased you found it useful - thank you
Thank you for sharing this information, I have a question if I may, would it be possible to spend 90 days in the EU and then spend 180 days in Turkey as a full-time liveaboard and go back into the EU and start the clock again, to the best of your knowledge?
hi tony its 180 from when the clock starts so if you spend 90 in europe then you have to leave for 90 etc not 180 but of course you can spend 90 and leave for 180 thats no problem either,hope that helps happy new year and fair winds
Yes Tony..
I think you can cd exactly that. Turkey is not in the EU.
It is very easy to get a resident card in Turkey...so you can stay there 365....
Great info. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. We are currently in the west coast of Scotland and were heading south for northern Spain after a stay in the scily isles but may well stay in the Scotland for this year until all the teething problems have been ironed out.
Gary hello,
You could be right - I don't think the Covid thing is 100% certain either - I'm planning to sail to Southampton to put the boat on a ship to the Caribbean but I do not have the confidence that I will be able to enter and leave UK waters in October. I am delaying making the booking!
Guadalupe and Martinique in the Caribbean are also European Union territory
Great episode Michael. Very informative, for those of a marine persuasion...
I am pleased you that ep useful Charlie - I have had a big reaction to it -
Can you also visit Croatia ? They are in the EU but not Schengen.
Yes John you can visit but you will still be limited to the 90/180 day rule. This rule is for visiting the EU countries... But there is Turkey, Tunisia but you need to be aware in any country if you stay there yourself for more than 180 day you are considered resident and liable for income tax on your world wide income...
I agree that I believe that the Croatia and Honbsogabania coast line is outside the EU but part of Shennan
David hello,
You could be right but I thought it was the other way round - either way difficult to stay in either country for over 90 days as I understand it
@@SailingGently Yes, Croatia and Bosnia- Herzegovina are not in Schengen area. And Schengen countries have the SIS II ( Schengen information system) That`s a common database for all member states law enforcement so once your entry/ exit is registered there, all other member state sees it ( within 24 hours). The database also holds info of your visa, insurance details, your history within the Schengen area etc. Some member states (Malta as a member on the Commonwealth) have individual regulations though.
@@teemuwilen4890 Teemu thank you for that very knowledgeable post. I was 99% certain there was a data base that our scanned passports feed into but never found conformation. Here in northern France there still seems to be some confusion amongst Border Police as to how to 'register' in and out UK boat visiting non Frontier ports.. The plan as of last week was to dispatch an agent from Calais to Boulogne to 'stamp' in a british boat when it arrives direct from UK but the plan did not seem to take into account the agent would also have to drive to Boulogne to 'stamp' them out when they leave - 30 minute drive each way so I suspect it is a little impractical - if well meaning.
Hi i own a mooring and peramantley moored in spain my boat is SSR im english. is there a loophole to change name and SSR number every 18Mths. just wondering whats your thoughts ?
Hello Andrew,
actually the UK rules if you live in Spain say you have to have Part 1 if you have a foreign address... If you are resident in the UK then I think that's OK.
Boats are finally identified by their hull number and in my experience the Police Local who patrol marinas are aware of foreign boats and the Douane check up via the marina office.
I think you will end up with a problem and have to pay IVA + matriculation tax and a whacking fine ... If your boat is capered of going to sea I am sure you can find a delivery skipper or similar to take it to Morocco for 24 hours every 18 months -
Good luck with it!
@@SailingGently thanks for the reply. I'll sail down if need be. Its just in the marina international torreviaje. As a lot of other marinas there's a lot of people use there boats as floating caravans and are not sea worthy. It will be interesting. Is it just an extra tax then to be paid.??? In valencia region we pay an extra tax for owning a boat the G5 tax I've been told we're the only region that pays this tax. I done have full residency but have a NIE number. It going to be interesting..
Hello sir. I have understood you said in this episode that you couldn't flight to or from Melilla or Ceuta. But there is airport in Melilla with connections to Madrid, Málaga, Palma de Mallorca, Sevilla etc. And you have regular helicopter lines to Ceuta from Málaga and Algeciras. I hope it could help. Thanks for your videos. I enjoy it a lot.
Alvaro thank you for the correction and update - very useful - So pleased you like the videos
Thanks, great video! What interests me the most, which I hadn't known until you pointed it out, is that things have really improved for Americans, towards long-term UK travel.
Jott hi,,
Yes it's good for you but visiting the USA by boat is even harder these days for us Brits
@@SailingGently That's unfortunate, although not shocking due to recent events. I was sorry to see Brexit win. Ninty days is too short for boaters.
What are the regulation to enter UK for sailors from EU, is there same reciprocal bureaucracy with the paperwork, or is it more like Americans ... just show up in a port of entry and apply for tourist visa?
I do not know - I suspect they too should use a UK port of enry and phone Yachtline but I am not sure - will look it up tomorrow!
@@SailingGently thanks ;-)
so, when I return to Crete ...to STAY ...what will they do about that???
Anthony I think it depends on your passport - if you have a British passport they will not be pleased when you eventually leave by air or the EU by car and have the power to never let you back in to the EU again - but a EU passport of course no problem
Have you information on Montenegro and Croatia?
Chile Sauce yes - and I am going to do a re-edit to include this info.. Montenegro is possible - pretty crowed and relatively expensive. Croatia is the most expensive and highly regulated place in the Med. they fined a Brit yacht 600 euro for not flying a courtesy flag and will probably impose local VAT if you stay longer than 6 months - you need to do research before considering them
Informative video very well said..Question to you.i live in Uk,i own a ⛵boat I have the indefinite settled status in UK,I am Eu citizen. What are the rules?
Thank you.
Tibor hi,
bit beyond my pay grade - I am a amateur sailor not a lawyer - for you at a guess, if you hold a EU passport then you are home dry - free to travel for as long as you like in all of the EU... the boat I think will be liable to the 18 month rule - you must take it out of EU waters for 24 hours every 18 months - Hope that helps but do verify the above - Glad you liked the video
@@SailingGently right. As an eu citizen you are free to enter/ exit freely but the vessel registered out of EU can stay within only for 18 months. And no lawyer either, just 30 years as a border official in EU, now retired and sailing.
@@teemuwilen4890 I don't think that is correct. A UK vessel located in the UK and then moved to the EU by a EU resident will be liable for VAT on arrival. This applies to any goods arriving in the EU from a 3rd country. However, it is a nightmare and need not have happened.
How about Montenegro? Possibilities of keeping your boat there?
Yes Michael there is - but it needs investigating carefully re how long the boat can be in their waters before it is deemed to be imported and import duty and local VAT is payable - I have heard some worrying reports but do not know for sure
@@SailingGently montenegro were really good , they said you can stay along as you want,
I took a boat there for a owner for that reason, nice place
Forgive my ignorance but I’m thinking about sailing from my home area (NE Scotland) to explore Norway in early summer before heading south to Gran Canaria for the end of the season and preparing to cross to the Caribbean.
Norway, being non EU but part of Schengen will presumably start the clock ticking I presume?
Anyone have any advice on this?
Yes, Norway will start the the clock ticking.
Ron I do not know about Norway - I suspect as part of Schengen the 90 day clock will start to tick but I am not 100% certain - sorry!
I would think sailing from Scotland to Norway then Gran Canaria before crossing the Atlantic is sadly a non starter given the 90 day limit.
@@SailingGently It will, that's the whole point of Schengen.
That’s a pity 😟
I suspect the ‘Shetland Bus’ never had this problem..
What about the countries around the ADRIATIC? Bosnia, Montenegro, etc.
RW hi,
Croatia is very very expensive and dodgy rules - they fined a british yacht 600 euro for not flying a courtesy flag! Montenegro is possible but has cruising permits and I am not certain but think they will want VAT paid locally if you stay longer than 6 months - but you need to check
Remember to find out what is a port of entry for all these countries, Croatia was a bit hot on regulations ,
David hello, I think all those countries have 'issues' for long distance cruising boats.. Probably excellent for the charter trade but for us...?
@@SailingGently what about all the non eu boats in the med , what about all the countries around the world ,
All these newly won freedoms.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - or something like that
VERY INFORMATIVE THANKYOU
WHAT ABOUT MONTENEGRO?? CHEAP FUEL TOO
Guy hello, I have done a revised video - edition 2 including Montenegro - I only ever got as far as Split in the Adriatic - so my ignorance is showing!
@@SailingGently Thanks for getting back i just subscribed so i will follow.
Take care
@@SailingGently May I say you have missed some of the greatest coastlines on earth?
My friend's boats is not worth much so thinking about what it will cost to pay the tax and keep it in Europe. Its in Italy at the moment. In the Uk, it's worth £15K but to someone in the EU it's probably not worth that much also it a 1980 boat and befor VAT so don't know how that will work out?
Steve hi,
I think you are right.. generally older boats are assessed at a low value.. And cars..I would just pay the tax and get it legal. Then he could sell it for a reasonable price one day
@@SailingGently The question is who do you go to to find out what's got to be paid? Is it VAT that has to be paid or is it VAT and an import tax also?
In Spain you would ask a Gestoria. A company that does government paperwork for people.. I wonder if the same exists in Italy. Of just ask Italian customs and excise
I suspect you have to try and prove market value by referencing prior sales of similar vessels.
Its the same as importing anything of value from the US , find the customs office and clear it through
So can you do 90 days in and 90 days out?
It's a bit more complicated than that I think - You have to look back over the last 180 days to see how many days you have spent in the EU?...
So you could have a validity of a few days or weeks on a certain day but you must not have spent more than 90 out of the last 180-days in the area. that is why the apps like Schengen 90 are being used by a lot of folks -
Absolutely marvellous... very concise... THANK YOU
Thanks Shelloo - So glad you liked it
@@SailingGently well ..it is very clear ..and informative...deservedly liked..
hi i would just like to correct you slightly in regards to Spain,if your a Uk citizen with a Uk flagged boat you cannot leave your boat in a Spanish port for more than 3 months unless you are a Uk person who holds a Spanish Residencia and even then after 3 months you have to by law re flag it to the Spanish flag,it is the same with cars you have 3 months on Uk plates then you have to leave or change the plates to spanish ones.if your crusing the med yoour best bet would be after 90 days be in turkey untill you can restart your next 90 days,all the best from spain as a uk resident here for 30 plus years
Jonathan could you quote me the official source from which you got that information please? I am not certain you are correct -
Hi Jonathan, your solution sounds like the only option that might fit my future plans, would extrapolate if possible or point me in the right direction, please. I have a question if I may, would it be possible to spend 90 days in the EU and then spend 180 days in Turkey as a full-time liveaboard and go back into the EU and start the clock again, to the best of your knowledge? many thanks, Tony.
@@SailingGently this is spanish law period .i have lived and owned several businesses .cars.boats etc here in spain so its correct if you have doubts then visit the spanish gov web site.all the best
Croatia, Montenegro and Albania are EU, but not Schengen...fantastic coast line and popular (maybe even too much so) cruising / sailing grounds.
I see that it was corected in the 2nd edition of this video...disregard!!
Thanks Marco - I sailed into Split once decades ago - before the days of GPS and thought the islands and area were lovely - the town was desperately poor but the EU and charter sailing has helped greatly - the rules and regs of all these countries need to be looked at carefully before basing a boat there - I think!
Albania isn't in the EU.
Interesting and complicated. Of course it is very early days at the moment, and there is still a lot of confusion on both sides. I wonder if there will be some sort of Mediterranean 'long term cruising permit' scheme (at a cost) introduced at some point. It will all come down to financial calculations.
And I agree with about the postal thing. I renewed (or tried to renew) my SSR recently. They would allow payment on line; which I did. But then I got a letter saying that my registration had been cancelled because I hadn't posted the form. The poor person in the office said that I was not the only one who assumed that 'just because' I had a message saying that my payment for SSR was successful, I had now renewed it. I had to apply for a new one, but luckily managed to keep the same number. Franz Kafka would have been proud of the process.
In the meantime, it looks like we all need to go out and buy yellow flags.
Paul hello,
Thank you for watching - I've had a lot of feedback so I have done a re-edit which I hope is better - The devil is in the detail..
glad you agree about the postage thing! Here in France even my 'attestation' forms which keep changing with every lockdown alteration are done on line and for Driving Licence - health card - car number plates all forms you fill in on line and press submit or upload - It the French can do it...
I do not think the business cruising boats bring to any country will motivate the EU to allow special permits - however I am certain that Spain, Portugal and France will introduce 6 months visas for 2nd home owners eventually and maybe boats will tag onto that.
In the meantime get a yellow flag for the old oak tree - hope you do manage to get her in the water this summer - Sail over and visit me if you want!
Michael
It's worth mentioning that France offers a Long Stay visa... it's the only Schengen country that does. You need to show funds equivalent to the minimum French wage in your bank account or provable income...but perhaps you have a pension or a sailing kitty that will suffice. But really, sod that all for a lark, we are going to bounce as fast as possible down France/Spain to Morocco, the Canaries, Cape Verde (or Gambia first if we need to wait for the crossing season) then straight to Caribbean.
The UK are the ones that wanted tighter Borders , remember Sovereignty
I think there will probably be more long stay visas in places like Spain and Portugal but they will be aimed at 2nd home owners rather than cruising boats.. I too am heading for the Caribbean but I am putting her on a ship to Antigua -
Would the 90/180 rule apply to UK citizens who are legal residents in an EU country? I have been legal permanent resident in Cyprus for over 10 years. Thanks
I am a legal resident of France with a 10 year carte de sejour but I am only allowed to spend 90/180 in any other EU country eg Spain, Portugal, Germany etc - It is the passport that activates that rule...
in the EU country in which you are legally resident you have 365 but if you visit another EU country then you have the 90/180 day rule...
I am a French resident with a carte de sejour - I may stay in France 365 but if I go to spain or indeed any other EU countries then I can only have a total of 90 days in them in every 180 days
To be clear - you are fine in Cyprus because you are a legal permanent resident -
@@SailingGently thank you ever so much for your replies and videos. By the way, I very much enjoyed your other video: cruising the Atlantic though I thought you would need about 6L of water per day :)
Thanks a lot. I have already subscribed to your channel.
@@rosse.weiler8420 Thank you Ross - with the water it depends if you wash in fresh or salt I suppose...thank you for subscribing - it really helps
Are these the rules for boats only? What if I have an eu passport and a UK flagged ship?
Gabe the rules are the passport holder but there are other rules which vary country to country about nationals sailing ´foreign´ (UK) flagged boats.. Different in Spain to France for example..
@@SailingGently Any idea about a UK registered boat that has paid French vat?
What about Montenegro or Albania? Neither in the EU.
Yes, you are right, but there are issues with them both - Montenegro is apparent very expensive and full of boats and Albania is light on real marinas - also both operate their own 90 day rule but like the EU allow you to keep the boat in their country for 2 years
Montenegro is not in the EU. Cyprus(the southern part) is.
Martin thank you. Yes you are right and I was wrong.. I will do a re-edit to correct this - I am grateful to you for pointing out the errors!
Thoroughly enjoyable travelogue of the maritime persuasion.....a big tick.
David thank you - so pleased you enjoyed it
Thank you for this information it makes the situation a little clearer.
Noddy hello,
Really pleased it was helpfull
That's exactly the same for British as well as European visitors to the USA, as soon as you enter, your passport has a page stuck into it, reminding you of the maximum amount of stay, so we are all square now!
David you are totally correct - getting the special visa for a visit by boat is challenging and I understand the bits of paper they stuck in our passports to be retuned to then by post when we left have been superseded by a computer system - Hardly surprising - but ..
Algeria is mostly safe now and the visa situation is easing. I've it's already pretty straightforward to get a visa and I've understood they plan to introduce e-visas (at least it was pre-covid) And no south Cyprus is not British but are is a EU member. You omitted Albania and Montenegro, both are not part of the EU and are decently located to sail the Adriatic sea and Greece.
Willy hello,
We all have different experiences which is why sailing boats are such fun.. a couple of years back - maybe five I listened on VHF to a sail boat being arrested and boarded by Algerian force then ordered to follow the patrol boat into harbour... I am guilty of missing out Albania but mainly because it does not seem to have any marinas - and I totally forgot Montenegro - maybe because it is so far up the Adriatic but you are right I got it wrong - thank you for the feedback
@@SailingGently I've not visited Algeria by boat, but the last few years Algeria has become a lot more tourist friendly/less tourist hostile. I don't know what happened to that boat, so hard to comment, no clue what was going on, but it's certainly true that if something is wrong or just considered suspicious they are less likely to wait and see and more likely to act decisively.
That's interesting - It would be really useful to non EU yachts if Algeria did become user friendly - make heading for Eastern med a lot easier! Thank you for the info
What about covid travel restrictions?
John hello, I made the video on the assumption that by the middle or end of this year the Covid situation will be more or less under control but the 90/180 day rule will be there for the foreseeable future
Loved travelling around Europe pre EU, didn't have problems working, sailing or going to uni.
A new challenge - can always move to Europe and become a resident - after I have been here 5 years I may apply for a French passport - dual citizenship - and then Europe is my oyster again!
Thank you
You're welcome - glad you found it useful
Thank you, really useful video!!!
Chris I am so pleased you found it useful
I heard that when going to the UK by boat what you have to do is sail out to the middle of the Channel and wait for Border Force to escort you into an English port, making sure that you have first destroyed all your paperwork.
That is only for non British nationals
does going to the Rock of Gib not count as being outside the EU ?
Gibraltar signed up to schengen too. Uk visitors need a visa. Counts towards schengen too.
as Juno says Gib is joining the Schengen and whilst I am not certain that probably means the 90/180 day clock will start ticking as you enter Gib. Not 100% certain yet but will become clear in the next weeks
I agree Jago
What about the Black Sea ? Plus of course Adriatic bases : Albania and Montenegro
Hugo hello,
Yes you are right, Hugh, except there are no marinas as far as I know in Albania but Motenegro is certainly a possibility but I do not know how long you can keep a boat there without it becoming liable for VAT...
What about Croatia. Also not in Schengen.
My understanding is that in non Schengen EU members you are still only allowed 90 days (in some cases 60) but you can then move to another non Schengen country and spend 90 days there - or to Schengen area and spend 90 days in all of it.. I am not a lawyer but that is my understanding of the situation.
Jacob Rees-Mogg will send his nanny over to help you fill in the forms.
Cormac you are an optimist!!!!
these sailors are now real British sailors and are better and happier sailors for it.
try to reg. in Ireland (common travel area)
Sounds like a good Idea Ron... If you have the right relations.
@@SailingGently
The common travel area pre-dates the EEC/EU. As a British Citizen you are automatically entitled.🇮🇪🇪🇺
Hello Michael and thank you for video full of useful informations...I would like make this matter clear
I am citizen of Czech republic ( that is mean EU passport ) and l would like buy yacht in USA ,keep it under USA flag and insurance tax paid over there as well...So that's mean yacht can stay in Britan for 18 months ( l living and working in GB for years ) and after that period l just have sail for 24 out ( let say in Africa ) and come back again with new 18 months period???
What about if l buy yacht in EU ,tax not paid ??? i understad that matter is very complex , but l am greatful for any info...many thanks...keep safe yourself.....
Henri hello,
Yes, buying a boat in the USA and bringing it back to Europe is complicated as it has to conform to either UK or EU standards - most of the boat will be OK but the engine - particularly, a Perkins, will be difficult to conform and it's sometimes easier to re-engine.. There are companies who will do all the work and issue certificates of conformity - then there will be import duty and VAT to pay. None the less it is sometimes a good deal but it really needs researching thoroughly on the conformity front before you buy
@@SailingGently Hello again Michael... well , about the engine , when l'm seeking for a yacht , so always with Yanmar and l still hope that Yanmar for Us is the same like for Europe , follow your comment if l get Us yacht and come back , and mooring her in Europe ( l am still with Czech or EU passport ) there should be applied that rule 18 month and then get out for while or l am l wrong ( follow your comment )
After some time as l will keep my passport l can re-register under flag of Holland as l find the information that they do not care too much about VAT or other tax...( info from oficial Holland webside )...
But if you can say something about how long the Us yacht can stay on the territory of England?? many thanks for info...
@@henriviii2512 CE Certification is required for all recreational boats entering or being sold in the European Union. ... Certification by a notified body enables you to display the CE mark on your products and allows you free and open access to the European Union market.
Try this link - www.nmma.org/certification/ce-certification
Your main problem is getting the boat a CE and you should ask about all engines not just Perkins - As a Czech national I am not at all sure you may own an American registered boat. You must get the CE plate then import it legally... then of course it is a EU yacht and can do what it likes in the EU..
so, any boat needs to conform to current standards?, even if it’s built prior to the new CE standards taking effect? There’s no “grandfather clause” which would exempt older, non-conforming boats?
Thank you for a good summary of the current clipping of our Med sailing wings. Who knows whether it will resolve itself once the ports that used to be full of red dusters feel the full commercial impact and put pressure on their respective governments. The current government and the RYA don't seem overly bothered, other than to make placating comments. I have kept our boat in Malta, a lovely country and a good springboard for Italy and Greece with the option of Tunisia a day sail away. Maybe an option , although like you the Carribean is looking increasingly attractive. Keep up the good work!
Thank you Martin - Yes Malta is a smashing place and Tunisia is a gentle sail away. The problem is only being allowed 90 days there on your passport - I will report back via RUclips on how the Caribbean works out .. but I need France to get the covid vaccination thing under control so I can enter the UK without having to do isolation!
Albania is not in EU yet.
Gordon you are right of course but as I understand it they do not have any marinas where you could keep a boat -
The rule is concerned with Schengen, not the EU itself, which is why stuff like Norway, Ireland, Gibraltar and Croatia are confusing people. Brexit simply cost UK the exception for staying in Schengen for longer. I'd suggest you use a map from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area for the re-edit instead of the hand-drawn map of which parts of the coast are in the EU.
Matej hi,
Thank you - yes you are right I should have looked for an EU map - got too involved with C-map system which is accessible - sorry!
Yes the rule is Schengen but I think all the countries bordering the Med are Schengen so I generalised - I have just published the re-edit but I would have used your suggestion if I had read it sooner - I thank you for taking the trouble
@@SailingGently I'm still reading up on the topic. I might find the time over Easter to type out something at least resembling an overview of the situation. Although I do feel a little like I have no business writing about such stuff...
Excellent as ever!
Really glad you found it useful - thank you
One potentially major issue - if your boat is out of the UK for more than 3 years HMRC will now want you to pay VAT on it again when you return, so the obvious answer would have been to keep it out of the UK, however if you can't keep in in the EU more than 18 months as well and you're in Northern Europe you're really in trouble - Channel islands perhaps?
Tom I am still not clear how it's going to work out which is why I have not done a follow up video... It's not too bad for me as I am based in Boulogne sur mer so after Covid will be sailing regularly to the UK in my British part 1 registered boat an see how border force et al react..
@@SailingGently sure - if you're going back and forth from the UK regularly this shouldn't change anything - it's more if you take more than 3 years circumnavigating and then come back..
@@tomriley5790 And I still find that hard to believe - that it is the way it will actually operate - when I was away for over 4 years sailing I was still paying UK income tax and was registered in a department set up exactly for people like me.. So I think it likely some arrangement will be made in the current legislation - For me coming from France and 'visiting' albeit in a brit boat there does not seem to be any information on line so it will be interesting to see what happens...
@@SailingGently It's a recent decision, if you google it it will come up - the cruising association have protested it, letter in the times etc. It's not actually anything to do with the EU, just a british decision...
Oh shit ! 😩
Gibraltar may sign up for schengen...but that doesn't mean they will limit brits to 90 days stay - that would be unthinkable.
More likely,they will use their right to allow fom with the uk - ie no 90 days limit ..... but that will only apply to Gibraltar territory.
All schengen countries are free to to give visa to 3rd countries whatever time limits they like within their own border
You could well be right - sailing is a now a tiny part of their economy so I suspect they will not prioritise it - I am resident in France but may only spend 90/180 in another EU country like all other British passport holders - these long six months visas are really challenging to get
I think Cyprus is in the EU.
Denis you are right and I was wrong - Northern Cyprus does not really have marinas and Southern Cyprus is part of the EU - I am going to do a re-edit - thank you for making me aware of the error!
Is Croatia subject to 90/180 rule?
This rule applies only to Shengen members as far as I am aware. Not all EU members are in Shengen. Croatia is not a member so it should not apply to it. However Croatia itself will probably have its own rules on how long you can stay.
No Gill it is not BUT incredibly expensive, requires a cruising permit and possibly VAT payment - you need to check it out carefully before trying it... A tourist destination that fined a UK yacht 600euros for not flying a courtesy flag!
As pointed out the 90/180 rule apples to the schengen area most EU countries are in schengen, croatia is not but i believe is looking to join. Next door Montenegro is not in the EU/schengen, neither is Albania although i believe entry into Albania is not so easy and with only one marina a bit limited, i am told its very welcoming, well at least from texts when sailing off corfu.
Absolutely no one ever police this rule for super yachts owners in any duration in EU waters.
Plus you only need to go to Gibraltar take on fuel, stay a night and you have officially left the EU
That is above my paygrade but the rich..... I think, think Gibraltar is joining Schengen so the future there is not perhaps 100% certain
Can someone tell me the advantages of Brexit so far?...
Well our vaccinations are going better than the EU
No VAT on Tampons. That was so important to the Conservatives, they abolished VAT on sanitary products on day one. After that, they kind of ran out of ideas.
@@russella7263
🤣...
@@SailingGently
Indeed you are right but as far as I know that has nothing to do with brexit.
The UK has procured the vaccines as a member of the EU...
Same as Hungary did with the Russian vaccine.
@@SailingGently ....... which had nothing to do with Brexit or the EU.
What's the rule for dual citizens who reside in the US?
Nunya hello
Sorry I do not really know. My impression is that if you have two passports it the passport of the country you are in that is dominant. If you have a EU passport and an American passport I think, think but check, you can have unlimited time in the EU but the question is a bit above my pay grade!
@@SailingGently thanks, I'll try to pry additional info from "les inutiles" at the consulate.
I am a dual citizen also (Canada and the UK) and one common rule is that you have to enter on the passport that belongs to that jurisdiction ie I cannot enter the UK as a Canadian and I cannot enter Canada (or the US, for different reasons) as a Brit. So if you have an EU passport you would be typically expected to enter the EU on that passport. Airline pre-registration is a much more complicated question as on return flights they require the same personal information for both legs of the trip, which invariably means I can never check in on line but jnstead have to check in the old fashioned way. Tax treatment and residency, including boat registration is a whole, much more complicated question, however, which requires lots of research and/or specialist advice
@@stephenburnage7687 I enter France all the time on my US Passport. Back in the 70s, I used to present both passports, but that got old pretty fast. I basically don't use the French passport except when visiting hostiles..
@@stephenburnage7687 Yes Stephen it is really complicated - What you point out about passports is interesting - and sounds reasonable - Every country does it differently - here in France in 4 years time I can apply for French citizenship and have two passports like you UK/French but in Spain only US citizens are allowed dual Spanish / AN other passports.
I tried in the video to give an overview but not detailed information as it is far too complicated and mistakes can be costly. I agree it very important to research and take proper professional advice
Good info 👍
Thank you Charly
I'm spending 3mnths in Greek waters, then 3mths in Turkish waters (then repeat) and it's great!
Sounds like a good idea - well done - Turkey is a lovely cruising area - beautiful and the Greek islands will be covid free very soon
Informative.
Really pleased you found it useful....Mr Stratau
For British sailors the RYA has some good information. But a real good guide cruising the legal ins'n'outs of the EU and Schengen is www.noonsite.com/cruising-resources/european-union/ ... and they are updating regularly. The Adriatic is also a good place to look if you need to leave. Croation is EU but Non-Schengen. Bosnia-Herzegovina (Neum Marina), Montenegro and Albania are all Non-EU. But I haven't been there myself.
Joerg hello,
My problem with those countries opposite Italy is that I have visited Split once by boat but 30 years ago so hardly relevant. The majority are in the EU and all have rules and regs that require quite a lot of investigation before taking your boat there permanently
How about Macedonia, Albania and Bosnia?
Yes Markus I added them in the 2nd edition of the video - Sadly Albania does not have a marina but apparently very welcoming in the ports
@@SailingGently Great! Thanks for your great content. My wife and I are aspiring sailors and we've rarely seen videos that are as informative pertaining to the "knots and bolts" of sailing as yours. Good luck with your channel 👍
Now I got the Brexit benefit:
It is great for Americans cruising western Europe now being able to swap between Britain and the EU/Schengen Area to extend the cruising time without any limits.
There is an upside to everything!!!
@@SailingGently Thank you presenting us the upside :-)
so an american passport can sail 30 days in uk then 30 in schengen then 30 in uk? doesn’t that break the 180 rule?
@@bbloom01 Yes, an American can sail year around half time checked in EU waters, half time in UK waters.
Let us tell this a real Brexit Benefit.
@@bbloom01 Brannon I am not an expert on visas but Americans can have a 6 month visitors visa to the UK - and I think it is then renewable after a couple of months - if they really want to spend that much time in northern waters...
Horrific situation. I have an Irish passport and parents in Ireland. Can I register my £15k boat under the Irish flag?
Ouch - with your Irish passports you can of course spend unlimited time in the EU. If you have a UK resident address then you really need to ask the Irish authorities - about registering as Irish but be careful of what that does with VAT in the UK - you would need to be able to prove it is paid I think.. Why not keep UK SSR or Part 1 based on your UK residency? That avoids tax issues in the UK and the 18 month rule then applies to the boat in Europe - I think!
Joining an Irish yacht club might be of some help
Surely Cyprus is in the EU?
Mary you are absolutely right - I got it wrong - put it right in a 2nd Brexit video - edition 2 but the way RUclips works it pushes the first one not the 2nd! Sorry
Loved your programme though. Pity you left the mediterranean.
@@marygarrapa3537 Well Mary I am heading back to the Caribbean - I enjoyed the Med a lot but winter sailing there is not fun!
What about Northern Cyprus? That's linked to Turkey which is not in the EU
@@trevormj Yes you are right but when I visited my sister in North Cyprus I couldn't find any marinas.. Pretty little ports but no where to keep a sailing boat long term - could be wrong - often am!
What a strange map! There is written "Georgia" on the shore of Ukraine. Nice video though...
Tin hi, Yes these C-map charts all work on overlays - I can switch text, lights on or off and various degrees of both and I think sometimes the 'positioning' of information text is 'odd'. But to be fair they are navigational charts and major on the accuracy of stuff in the sea not on land. Also the last time they were updated was 1993 so.... but good for videos - and free!
So sad...and of course Americans are quite a long way from Europe, whereas it’s outside our back door. But Brexit doesn’t make any sense in any domain and never did :-(
It has certainly made sailing to foreign countries really difficult :-)
Biggest own goal in a generation! It is set now tho. Just got to deal with it. V frustrating and unnecessary.
Thanks Michael for putting things into context.
@@ian_griffiths It is what it is - but I thought it might be useful to state the rules of today - because tomorrow - who knows
@@SailingGently The EU rules have not changed , Brexit changed the rules that apply to Brits
Absolutely true - we now have to obey the same rules as the Americans have faced for decades
You have forgotten Montenegro, Albania etc as non EU countries
Yes Claus - You are right but as Far as I know Albania does not have a marina - several ports but no marina you can leave a sail boat in long term. I understand Montenegro will be in the EU in 2025 but I did forget it - sorry!
@@SailingGently Albania: ugly ports but dirt cheap on the hard. Montenegro - as beautiful as it gets and excellent tourist infrastructure. But airport 2 hours by taxi (or just across the border in Croatia...).
@@wolfganghager8321 Wolfgang your right, that is the other think folks have not really worked out yet - the proximity to an airport and the cost of getting to and from the boat each time you visit
you forgot croatia, not part of schengen yet
Sarabande hi, Yes I did but I have just corrected by making a 2nd edition of the video - I am grateful for the feedback - thank you