Brass or steel cases in a FAMAS F1?
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- Опубликовано: 10 янв 2024
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Accorded to many internet articles the FAMAS was designed for steel cases and simply can't function with brass cased ammunition. It'll cause malfunctions and not shoot straight innit! Well acktchually... Let's get this myth busted once and for all!
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People who think the Famas wasn't made for brass cases will take two things away from this video:
1) You made a video about the Famas and brass cases.
2) You said something about problems with brass cases.
Conclusion: the Famas wasn't made for brass, and will only work with steel .
Unfortunately you’re absolutely right 😂
Possibly, but they'll just have to live with being wrong :)
That's the problem David, they don't think!
I can see Ian starting this video with a large tub of Vanilla Ice-cream at hand.
We always were issued steel case ammo in French Army for the FAMAS. Never saw brass except for the MG's.
We were issued steel cased ammo until the factory closed and the rebareling of the weapon to accept standard NATO loaded 5.56.
I used both all along my career, i exprerienced the transition of ammo with non rebareled rifles and it was awfull how accuracy dropped, all impacts were key holes and so on. And after the transition was complete it was fine again.
Yup, NATO SS109 ball won't stabilise in 1:12 twist.
@@tinuraviel9507My service was until 1991 just to clarify. Ammo boxes plastic type were always dated early '80's. I still have a few of them.
@@SafetyProMalta serving from 1993 onward, due to retirement in couple of years 😉
I know exactely wich ammo boxes you talk about, i was also issued steel cased loaded magasins in greased / oiled plastic sealling that were left overs from the gulf war when i was in Sarajevo 😉 Those mags were so dirty and greasy my buddy and i called them "pompe à huile " (yes we were from south😆)
@@tinuraviel9507
That's just not how it happened.
FAMAS F1 were never rebarreled with faster twist rate barrel. The only one converted were the "félin" with Beretta barrels.
SS109 bullet (62gr) key hole with 1:12 twist rate.
M856 do 60cm diameter spirals in the air which are pretty but useless.
As a police officer in the 1980s, I ran into this problem with projectile stability. I was working in a rural area and needed something with more reach. So the chief had the armorer issue me one of the older C.A.R.16s. (C.A.R. stood for Civilian Armalite Rifle. It was sold for police use only. Basically a short-barreled AR16 with an adjustable stock, with a one-in twelve twist barrel. The predecessor to the M4) But our department had upgraded to the newer A.R.s and was now no longer buying the 55grn ammo and was only using the 62grn ammo. So when I went to the range to sight in the new ( to me) weapon, I was frustrated because at 50 yards the weapon was producing 12-inch groups! The armorer refused to buy 55grn just for me, So I purchased a variety of 55grn ammo but could not find ammo that was accurate enough for my standards. So I got permission to carry my personal M1 carbine instead. It was so accurate I had a Weaver 3-9 scope mounted to it. With it and Norm ammo, I had no trouble shooting five-shot groups at 100 yards that I could cover with a half-dollar.
CAR stands for Colt Automatic Rifle by the way.
Desperately need the 'will fight for cheese' patch. It is glorious.
I've discussed with Varusteleka - we'll get them made and stocked :)
@@BlokeontheRange cheers!
Funny thing is that I've heard multiple people say that you shouldn't use steel cases in a H&K G3. Because of the delayed blowback!
Wolf steel case has shot ok so far in mine. There was a small lot that had shallower than normal flutes that had a reputation of getting clog with minor debris. Maybe some of that lacquer was at fault. Ammo like brown bear does not use lacquer.
I like to call those myths "internet forum syndrome" - a grain of truth gets muddled, loses its original context entirely, then spreads around internet forums because people like to parrot things other users have said.
Came for the Dads Army reference in the thumbnail. Stayed for some Bloke and Chap.
Glad you liked it!
I love the dads army quote on the title , now you need to say dont panic, dont panic
Case's to thin you say, very large military contract you say.
Sounds like someone in the supply chain was trying to make a pretty penny or two.
Please keep in mind that 62 NATO bullet (with steel penetrator) is longer than a 62 commercial all lead core bullet. Length of the bullet in correlation with twist rate depends stabilisation of the bullet. If you want to try this, use a 69 grain HPBT bullet. It has the exact length of the 62 SS109 bullet and can be used for your test. Greets :-)
Yes indeed. Thanks for the tip
I would like to thank the glorious ministry of merchandise for the very cool BotR shirt that I got yesterday
I'm so glad that we integrated Varusteleka into the Ministry of Merch! And so glad you're happy with the shirt!
4:57 lest bust another myth. You can stabilise 55 gr with a 1.8 twist
Just like the M16A1 and earlier before SS109 62gr was adopted by NATO which everyone decided 1:9 would be optimal, but I think the USMC pushed for 1:7 in the M16A2 because it was slightly more accurate at longer range with M855/SS109 and heavy national match handloads for competition use before 77gr was a standard US military loading, or so I've heard from the rumors... I think 1:8 was a fairly rare .556/.223 twist rate until later, but was supposedly optimal because it could grouo well with lightweight solid copper or varmint bullets vs. 1:7, but was also better than 1:9 for heavy for caliber 77gr and heavier bullet accuracy, atleast from my understanding... 1:7, 1:8, 1:9 can all handle most any factory load or even light or heavy specialty/hand loads, just accuracy could be slightly degraded at longer ranges with anything outside of 55-77gr 🤔 Honestly 1:8 would've probably been possibly the best choice for a do it all twist rate for all commercial/ military loadings, which I guess is why it eventually became more available in AR pattern barrels in later years... Or so that's how I perceive the information I've gathered over time 🤷♂️ I've shot 1:8 but not much because I usually 1:7 twist is the most common cold hammer forged, chrome lined barrels for the AR platform that still hold great groups... But I've owned or shot plenty of 1:9 and 1:12 barrels so I just have many more rounds through basically every option besides 1:8, even though it's probably a better all around choice for almost any .223/5.56 loadings.
1:7 was chosen due to NATO 5.56 tracer which is really long so needs more twist to stabilise. 1:10 is optimal for 62gn, which is what the Swiss chose, and it's serendipity that the twist originally chosen for tracer just so happens to be great with the 77gn bullets when they came about much later.
Shot 52 grain match Bullets in my Colt AR15 A2 1-7 with exceptional accuracy
Thanks Chap, that was informative and entertaining.
As an aside, I fear we have more than a few decades to wait before we see railguns and such like as viable small arms, but it was fun to see you mention them.
Thanks to the joint French and German railgun research programme, at ISL (Institute Saint Louis), my tastiest ever conference banquet was served by Swiss Air in the Schlumpf Automobile Museum. Those were the days...
Yes I doubt there will be a move away from chemical propellants in my lifetime, at least in small arms, but it’s fun to imagine what could be.
Some dude made a gauss gun/rifle, Ian/Gun Jesus did a review of it sometime last year.
@@abhinavchevula6720 Ian has done several videos testing reluctance coilguns designed and marketed by Arcflash Labs.
The current models are about as powerful as BB guns but it is very early days for the technology.
Improvements in batteries and switches are to be expected as spin off from EV development, so we might eventually see better coilguns being offered.
I don't have any experience with the Famas and likely never will since I'm American. About a year ago I did however acquire an SVT-40, which also has a fluted chamber. I've heard horror stories of guys using soft brass cased 7.62x54r in SVT-40s and getting terrible stuck cases. They are so bad that even some gunsmiths are unable to get the stuck cases out or they do get the stuck case out but the owner finds out the event ruined the accuracy of their SVT. Like you said, soft, thin brass cases tend to cause brass to build up in the flutes of fluted chambered rifles and lead to stuck cases.
Interesting thanks! Didn't know the SVT-40 also has a fluted chamber.
It's only fluted at the neck
@@thebotrchap I think the SVT-40 originated the whole fluted chamber concept, but I'm not sure. In theory it is supposed to help with extraction, but if you use soft or thin brass cased ammo then it ironically does the opposite. Steel cased ammo however was the standard in the Soviet Union.
@@dancortes3062 Is that always true. I purchased some ammo for a mosin rifle. Some of it I see is brass and most of it is steel, but I am not sure of the origin of it. One I see has latin alphabet derived letters and so that likely not of russian origin.
In my PTR91/G3 I shoot either brass or wolf steel case.
@@dancortes3062 Fluted chamber had been patented by Giovannino Agnelli (Owner of FIAT) in 1915 (GB 8943) and first used in the SIA 1918 LMG.
brass is a softer materal than steel, but steel is a perfectly fine case material, for the fuddards out there, you know you're meant to heat the blank* cases to allow them to relax and maintain their shape, steel cases need more care, such as falling into a puddle or fluid. just do the same as brass but hotter (a bit before it is red red hot state) then let them cool on their own the structure will return to a useable state. while you may need to recoat a steel case, steel has low self adherence properties so it's a little slippy slippy, lacquer however REALLY helps (also protects the steel from corrosion). so on so forth.
*blank in this case is no bullet, no propellant, no primer, no nothing BUT case and ONLY the case. makes it easier and indefinitely safer.
Great video chap.
Enlightening as always fellas!
I just feel sorry for whatever poor sap inevitably tries to walk up to see the Chap shooting the Famas, only to get smacked right in the face with hot casings...
Jesus wept, that thing tossed those casings like it's trying to yeet them right into low orbit!
I wouldn't blame peoples on thinking the FAMAS can only get fed steel because that was what I was told when I trained on it and we only ever shoot steel casing ammo.
Happy 2024 to you and yours.
Thanks for an enlightening video! As one who had heard of 'Le Bugil' running with steel cases, I really enjoyed getting the full story.
Now, does the chamber fluting damage the cases too badly to be reloaded?
Actually not, you get radial soot lines along the case but there’s no unusual deformation. In retrospect I should have filmed a few ejected cases to show that 🤔
@@thebotrchap Thanks! I had heard that HK fluted chambers were rough on brass.
That chin weld though lol.
What LAM was the LAM mount meant for? Was there a preferred weapon light soldiers ran as well?
I was told that Beretta received a contract to re-barrel French military FAMAS F1s to 1/7" twist sometime in the early 2000s.
Those are the FAMAS valorisé or “valo” I mention at 11:55. 1/9” twist
@@thebotrchap So the rest of the F1 rifles never got the retrofit?
@@RAWtiercel No sir
@@thebotrchap Thanks. Wow, those barrels must have been shagged out near the end then.
Good job chappie
Out of Speck Ammo from the USA!!!! Never has such a thing happened.
Dat height over bore...
I know, it's sooooo 2023 darling
Did they ever get new barrels for f1s so they could use the nato rounds or can the g2 and the valorise only use them properly? sounds like a logistical nightmare
Nope, F1s stayed 1 in 12 through the entire service life.
@@thebotrchapthank you
Lance corporal Jones approves 👌
I heard that bullet weight and twist rate are not as important as twist rate and bullet-barrel contact area and that the grain values could be understood as synonyms for that bullet-barrel contact surfaces. I would be interested in your take on that claim?
It's wrong, sorry. It's the bullet length that matters for gyroscopic stability, and people use bullet weight as a proxy for that, which isn't really true when you're talking about steel core SS109, which is longer than a 62gn FMJ.
@@BlokeontheRange The way you worded it makes it sound like SS109 isn't a 62gr FMJ, but it is.
@@Zach_D While SS109 or M855 could be considered FMJ as the jacket does fully cover the bullet, generally FMJ usually implies entirely lead core vs the steel penetrator present in the previously mentioned 62 grain bullets. Steel is less dense than lead therefore SS109/M855 has a slightly longer bullet than pure lead 62 gr bullets.
I meant it in the "conventional FMJ" sense. Apologies for the lack of precision in my wording.
@@BlokeontheRange No problem, thank you very much for the answer.
Lake City ammo is mediocre, at best. I say that as an LC consumer, my guns get a steady diet of the stuff, but I inspect every round while loading the mags and have found some god awful examples that should have never passed through the hands of the their QC staff.
Indonesian M193? Never heard Pindad selling ammo into overseas civilian market
It's the only mfg with the same headstamp in the lists I could find online.
It is truly a shame how france's arms manufacturing capabilty slowly died over some 50 years, putting a sudden end to quite a few promising french designs, i. E. the Famas.
You got to shoot a famas 😭 I’m so jealous
My PE 57 is now 7.62mm (US import)
Smooth af
Where do you find Indonesian M193? Man, if I had the money and information, I'd try to have a couple thousand rounds of each military ammo to compare them and just document how neat or not they are, just all the different national 5.56 productions.
It's what SM in Germany has been "civilianising" lately. A batch of it came on the Swiss market at a very reasonable price. It's not very accurate though, but the price is more than right!
I dunno man, I think they'll all go bang more or less like for like
Surprised there's ammunition that my homeland is exporting, what's your general experience using Indonesian 5.56 rounds?
From my tests so far, it's not very accurate but it's reliable and at the price it's being sold at, it doesn't matter.
I never really understood why countries don't just use steel instead of brass, they always seem to want to cut costs so why not make it a requirement in a new firearm that they must be able to use steel cased ammunition. Better to save money going to steel and not making any performance difference then cutting capabilities that do matter.
In a few decades we’ll move on to lasguns, plasma rifles and portable rail guns so it won’t matter 🤣
It may be cheaper to produce, but there's disadvantages in use. It gets its coating scratched up by machine gun belt links, metal magazine lips etc. and rusts as a result. It takes less heat away from the system than brass.
The AK-74 was designed to use steel-cased ammunition. This is why the taper for the ammo is a bit more compared to other cartridges--and why 5.45 became scarce in the US after a ban on the imports for Russian ammo (because you can't reload steel cased ammo, not even at the factory)
And steel cases are more difficult to extract, the reason for the taper design for 5.45. But it was an entirely new cartridge so it was easier to make that requirement for an entirely new rifle.
What I am personally excited about is polymer cased ammo for individual rifles. But the issue is that there is still an engineering solution to be found for the polymer formulations (that's strong enough) and manufacturing that are cost effective (theoretically it would be super cheap if it can be mass produced to spec, but not right now).
@@BlokeontheRange " It takes less heat away from the system than brass."
This is hard to believe. Brass is better conductor, but I can see how it would make any (noticeable) difference vs steel.
Why would it transfer less heat away instead of being an insulator between gasses and chamber?
I'm sure that it is tested many times, so there should be info somewhere, right?
Cases come out the rifle very hot. Very, very hot.
Steel cases are normally coated inside and out with lacquer or polymer, which is insulating (though sometimes it's a copper wash). Also brass cases tend to be heavier though the specific heat capacity of brass is lower than steel.
They're both in contact with the hot powder gases for the same time, so the brass case absorbs more heat cos a) not coated, b) greater thermal conductivity: the chamber area of automatic guns doesn't get that hot very quickly (we did some experiments with an MG3 and a laser thermometer a while back) cos the case takes a lot of it away.
Never heard of this lore.
You dodged the fudd! Congrats 🎉
@@thebotrchap I wonder if it is merican fudd lore then?
@@kala1780 I suspect some of it originated with troops trying each others rifles during joint ops and some nato ball got fed to a few FAMAS.
Where does one get that cheese patch?
For now nowhere, it was a small batch I had made. I'll get some more made to hand out in person. If our merch works well on the Varusteleka website we'll add it to the inventory🧀 😁
I've discussed with Varusteleka - we'll get them made and stocked :)
I've discussed with Varusteleka - we'll get them made and stocked :)
Merci pour la vidéo !
Nice to share L.A.I. publication to anglophone, might help some folks on details than even Ian haven't talked about.
On one hand I would like to see this video published in French, like you sometime do, because it isn't that much say properly?
on the other hand I'm pretty sure it could make a small shit-storm too, soooo, good luck to decide what to do 😅😂
FR vid will drop at the weekend and yes I hope it will generate some interesting comments 😇
Please take up the SIG PE57. Mine rips up brass, so I only use steel ammo.
Where in the world do you get steel cases 7.5x55? 🤔
Oh, the FAMAS doesn't hold open on the last round 🤷♂
Настольный станок интересный...на заднем плане.🤔
I thought steel cases were stronger and allowed a weaker chamber but they are in fact just cheap.
"Weaker chamber"... That's a new one!
@@BlokeontheRange I suppose I mean higher pressure
I’ve come across 5.56 made in India but I didn’t know that Indonesia makes 5.56. Also I’ve never heard of this kind of lore but then again here in America I’m stuck with American firearm BS.
Do you know who the big ammo suppliers for European militaries are?
I haven't done any research on this but my wild guess is Dynamit Nobel and some government owned factories.
I am shaking with jealousy
I spy someone's new AR-10
Well, it's not good when there are a lot of different army rifles with the possibility to use any kind of lame ammo. And your rifle isn't like this.
Had it chopped to semiautomatic?!
Will fight for cheese 🧀😂
#INeedThisInMyLife
I was just thinking I need a cheese patch
Cheese Gromit... Cheese.
I've discussed with Varusteleka - we'll get them made and stocked :)
I've discussed with Varusteleka - we'll get them made and stocked :)
Interesting that people think that steel was more reliable in function than brass. But it seems it was for this particular weapons system. Lake City brass cased ammo that is considered by typical 5.56 shooters to be a gold standard for military ammo was out of spec for that system. I assume that it was 5.56 and not .223.
When I buy a semi-auto rifle or pistol, one of my first questions is will it function with the less expensive to make steel case ammo. Almost never a problem with former weapons of soviet era design such as the SKS, AK, MAK, or TT33. Fact is in the USA folklore says not too shoot steel in an AR-15 that I do all of them. I have done it.
Now president biden has sanctioned russian ammo that is most mostly steel case, there is less steel case on the market for the moment and the price has gone up. PSA is working on developing the technology to make steel case ammo available to the american market. They are already selling economically priced brass case ammo in some calibers. President Biden's polls and also his mental abilities are going down and it is quite likely that if he runs for re-election that he will not win and maybe then his antigun actions cease.
It is amazing how some people can not tell the difference between "it was not designed for, (it is not optimal)" and "it will self destruct if...". If you failed an IQ test, or are listening to people whom failed their IQ tests, quit proclaiming yourself an expert.
But it *isn't* designed for steel cases, as the video explains... And it's *always* worth busting such Fuddlore. If you're going to not actually watch the video before criticising, quit proclaiming yourself an expert ;)
@@BlokeontheRange and that's why I subscribe to your channel. Between the myth busting, your range antics, chaps all out geek sessions etc. your videos never disappoint.
BTW, I am an expert, just ask me! 🤪
Is a mith a moth with a blocked nose ?😜
I know that original French 223 from back in the 70s was steel case.
7:06 Second down on the left is a box of mil. brass cased 5.56 from 1977
Is this some Mandela effect thing or did Bloke on the Range used to be a different dude?
There's two of us who do the channel together but it started out as just me so kept the name...
@@BlokeontheRange Good to know that I am not starting dementia and loosing my facial recognition abilities
@@BlokeontheRange Nice, BlokesonVariousRanges :D
This is the chap
The second largest economy of the EU voluntarily lacking the capability to manufacture small arms and ammunition is an excellent of example of the Continental indifference to its own defense.
While being the second weapon exporter in the world after USA...
Can semi-auto ever be a FAMAS?
Yes, otherwise it would say MAS 223 on the receiver.
@@thebotrchap You can write anything you want on the receiver, but it doesn't change the action.
FA=assault rifle.
So SAMAS or just MAS?
@@XtreeM_FaiL Your point? The action is still complete, no part of the auto and burst mechanism has been removed, just cleverly temporarily disabled by a master gunsmith to satisfy the legal requirements. It says FA-MAS 5,56 F1 on the receiver and that's exactily what it is inside too.
You are pedantic yet completely wrong at the same time. Get a clue. @@XtreeM_FaiL
No they do not.........they can't abide it.
What?
@@skepticalbadger Reference to the Title of the Video and one of the favourite sayings of Lance Corporal Jack Jones, (Egypt Medal 1882 - 1888, Indian General Service Medal 1895 - 1902, Queen's Sudan Medal 1897, Queens South African War Medal 1899 - 1902, King's South African War Medal 1901 - 1902, India General Service Medal 1909, 1914 - 15 Star, British War Medal, Allied Victory Medal, Army Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, Khedive's Star 1882 - 1889, Khedive's Sudan Medal) member of the Walmington on Sea Home Guard, when referring to the use of the Bayonet in close combat. - "The Old Cold Steel, they don't like it up em.........they can't abide it."
@@nthnmonkey RUclipsr Chris Green "The History Chap" has a great series of videos on many of those Victorian battles and campaigns and on both the fictional and real life service records of the Dad's Army cast.
@@derekp2674 Thank you Sir, much appreciated.
@@nthnmonkey You are most welcome and Chris is a great raconteur (and obviously a scholar and a gentleman).
6:27 france not part of NATO? what did i miss?
In 1966 France cease to participate in "integrated" commands (*) and no longer make forces available to NATO. But stays member.
(*) closing of all U.S. military bases in France.
Fully reintegrated since 2009
@@Zorglub1966 its quiet the interesting thing, the french USA bases were
too old
too far from west Germany's eastern boarder
france kicked the USA out
USA got build new bases in Germany and the USSR could not complain
And Charles de Gaulle got mega political brownie points
why on god's green earth did you remove the full auto!?!?!?
To stay out of prison?
Keep full auto: Shoot 1-2 times a year into a sand bank at 20m and pay a fortune for the privilege.
Semi auto: Shoot pretty much anywhere I please.
If I want to I can also have it reversed provided I do the paperwork.
As stated by Chap, but expanded to make more sense to an American
In Switzerland ownership of FA guns is absolutely allowed, but shooting them involves alot of bureaucracy, Semi autos you can walk into any shooting range whenever you feel like and its a normal day of sporting.
because the laws permit ownership of FA guns the rules for whats considered an acceptable semi automatic conversion are allot less stringent than the US. Because it is expressly allowed to be reversed at the owners leisure provide they file the correct forms. Its more a "Current status of the gun" situation, IE, is it currently semi only or select fire.
As opposed to a "The status IS the gun" situation like in the US, where regardless of if the gun is select fire *currently* if it ever was select fire, on the books its select fire, with no legal way to make it semi automatic short of destruction of the receiver to use the parts for a full rebuild.
A prime example of this is that the CMP was barred from selling M14s to the general public (minus supposedly a small group that slipped through in the 60s that was granted a special exemption to avoid a logistical nightmare in hunting them all down)
Because, despite the fact most of them had their auto sears removed and welded over by the 70s the fact they ever had auto sears in the first place, makes it a machine gun
My question would be: how on God's green Earth did he find a full-auto FAMAS? Were those ever sold by France? I've only seen semi-auto MAS223 versions for sale
There's all sorts of fun and interesting stuff floating around here. Apparently in the 80's the Swiss Army bought a few of practically everything on the market for tests. Once that programme ended, the rifles ended up in circulation (possibly given to officers who participated as one rumour has it...).
IIRC they designed the FAMAS to run steel.
The entire point of this video is to debunk this Fuddlore ;)
I guess you just watched as far as the title
Why don't people watch the video before commenting?