12:27 Ash got re-united with his Kanto starters in the episode prior to the battle. Brandon admired his bond with them and specifically requested a 4v4 against those specific mons. That's why he couldn't switch into any Fire types against Dusclops, why May knew Squirtle was next etc etc Entertaining video, but with a title like 'Ash sucks at battling' I thought it would be more about Ash winning for dumb reasons (which he often does), instead the video feels like it's more pointing out inconsistencies between the anime and the games.
Thanks for clarifying, cause I really had no idea. Yeah it’s kinda both. I think Ash made some very dumb moves in this battle (from an in-game perspective) but it is definitely more like a comparison. I’m just starting out on RUclips, so I thought the title needed to be a bit spicier is all
Ash using Thunderbolt (or Thundershock?) on Brock's Onix I can somewhat forgive since you can at least assume the sprinklers had the same effect as the move Soak. One would have to wonder why a building with nothing in it, but stone has sprinklers, though. However, "Aim for Rhydon's horn, Pikachu!" is absolutely ridiculous.
The big takeaway is that it is hard to be immersed and have fun with the anime when it directly contradictory to actually playing the games the anime was based on. Consistency holds more immersion.
“ash should have used ‘said move’” Well ash’s Pokémon don’t know those moves for one, belly drum on Charizard is an egg move, and since you’re using game logic completely in your analysis, that would make it impossible for ash’s Charizard to learn. Most of the moves you complain about ash using he’s used in the past the same exact way, Bulbasaurs leech seed wrapping and trapping opponents, he did that to a venonat in season 1, bee drill at the Pokémon indigo league, I’m sure there’s more. Also Bulbasaur can definitely survive a shadow punch from super weak dusclops, plus Bulbasaur would have a shit ton of Evs invested at this point in the story (going by your logic) Most of your analysis is just “why don’t they use these moves?” When they don’t know said moves, plus at the time of these episodes the meta game for older gens were barely known if existed at all aside from vgc and not everyone had internet nor did RUclips exist. So most people were using moves that they thought were good and not thinking on stab and just trying to have some coverage even if the moves aren’t very strong or the right physical or special variation for the Pokémon The writers kept the same moves that ash’s pokemon always had, given maybe 1 or 2 new moves, plus most people watching are kids and are probably thinking. “Yo Ash’s Charizard is using dragon breath! He’s going to paralyze dusclops and win!” If battles in the anime went the way you wanted, it would make the show pander to serious players and not casual like it’s supposed to be, plus the Pokémon using the moves they have put tension in the battles. The show would be boring if it was like the games, you’d just see one shots and non stop switching.
Exactly, it's been obvious since the show's inception that it's more than the games' code. A Pokemon's biology has been taken advantage of on many occasions like high jumping, grabbing, blocking ,etc. It's just the "Sins" trend now to trash old games with modern standards. Why doesn't Pong play like Call of Duty? The graphics suck so bad and there are no DLC or battle passes.
Soak is a move that changes pokemon type to the water type when hit by it. So it makes just a tiny bit of sense as to why Pichachu was able to win against Onix.
Well Paul Pokémon was specifically to battle against the ice type gym leader Candice I thnk her name was Paul would realistically perform batter than ash Paul has better strategies and better iq
the other side of this coin is that Paul got absolutely RNG'd to death in that fight. Man got flinched, frozen, fully paralyzed, hit by every single zap cannon, missed his focus blast, like i'd be pissed too
Off topic but some of the battle cries when the characters send out their pokemon are pretty fire. Paul's "Standby for battle!" was always really cool. Gave off a military vibe. And then there's Brandon's "I need your assistance!" Like he's such an elite, he can phrase it like a 'favor'. I kinda wish they did more with that.
This is why I'm not the biggest fan of the battles against Brandon. The Frontier battle against Spenser and Tucker were better than this, and gave Sceptile, Swellow, and Corphish their moments to shine. Speaking of Sceptile... At least the writers gave us an epic and memorable finale of a battle involving him after this one, along with a certain newly, fully-evolved starter at the time...
6:54 Charizard only learns Belly Drum in Gen III as a Charmander through breeding with Snorlax. And because breeding wasn't a thing before Gen II and Ash caught Charmander in Gen I, it's impossible for Charizard/Charmander to have ever learned Belly Drum.
Fair, but it’s also impossible for Charizard to take a Will-O-Wisp. Egg moves don’t really exist in the show as far as I’m aware, so I think it’s reasonable that his Charizard could use it
@@heysoundsworth Meanwhile Charizard still can't learn Belly Drum; only Charmander can. And only starting in Gen II when the move debuted, while Ash caught and evolved Charmander all the way into Charizard in Gen I.
@@heysoundsworth Depends on what kind of battles do you want anime has gotten a quite bit better at less bullshit battles but then again I remembered this battle as pretty good not breaking a ton of game rules. If you want battles where ash makes some game sense look at the sinnoh league paul battle the Conway one breaks some big game rules but much less than this one tobias one has some more than that. Also kalos league sawyer vs tierno and sawyer vs ash battles are decent too. Though skip the last matchup of ash vs sawyer(greninja vs mega sceptile) it's very cool looking but has quite a bit of bullshit. If you want pure bullshit like this one see battles before this one since sinnoh most battles generally don't break game rules this much. I haven't watched most of these but from what I have heard they used anime logic heavily. For later battles see the greninja vs sceptile part of ash vs sawyer in kalos. Mega sceptile frenzy plant is absurdly powerful and greninja defeats sceptile which resists water 4x with a water type attack. The fight is very epic though.
I think the anime logic here is that will-o-wisp is a damaging ghost type move. The name of the move suggests it's a fairy or ghost type move to an outside observer
24:20 A better idea is actually one you mentioned in this very video. Ash should have lead with Charizard, Brandon leads with Dusclops, and Charizard clicks Belly Drum. GG. Outside of maybe a crit Aerial Ace from Ninjask, nothing is stopping Charizard after that. Ash spams EQ or Rock Slide and wins.
The Pokémon anime taught me a lot about battles because it told me what not to do. I credit the anime and Pokémon showdown for teaching me what it really means to be a Pokémon trainer. One thing I learned was to stand my ground and not do inefficient switches. If there is no safe switches fight even if the opponent has the advantage in type or matchup. Unlike Ash mean look would have not made me scared because unless dusclops had perish song than why should I be afraid to lose the ability to switch because my opponents wasted a move they could have used it to attack but instead all they accomplished is that now they will get hit two times for free.
I have had some intense battles with dusclops in ranked battles he is a threat that’s for sure with eviolite he’s one of those Pokémon that can stay on the field for a long time. Other Pokémon players I can see them rage quit if they had to fight it but I am very stoic which is an asset when you’re trying to win Pokémon battles and I give that Mon a run for his money.
Man, I'm sorry but this analysis sucks. Yeah we all get it, the changes they make from the video game to the anime are stupid but after you see it consistently being different that's where you have to let it go. Obviously Will-o-wisp WASN'T doing nothing, we all know that's different from how it works in the games so it's just annoying hearing you repeat that. And it's also annoying hearing you keep saying they should be using moves their pokemon don't currently have learned. Their whole movesets are revealed in this battle, just going off the first one Dusclop's four moves are Shadow Punch, Will-o-wisp, Mean Look and Confuse Ray, and Charizard's are Flame Thrower, Dragon Breath, Steel Wing and Seismic Toss. Instead of continuously repeating how they could have better moves for the situation just say their movesets are ass and move on. A good analysis would have been looking at the moves that are actually available from the four attacks we see and say which of those 4 would work. Obviously a double knock out with attacks landing at the same time doesn't work in video games. Did this battle look like it was following the rules of the mainline games? When you're 3/4ths of the way through the battle you need to recognize the rules are different and adjust how you're criticizing. And the worst part is, you're not even correct on all the critique you give from the standpoint of how it works in competitive pokemon either. Mean Look was useful so the opponent couldn't fix confusion via swtiching and Leech Seed is the most competitively viable move on Bulbasaur's whole set unless you're using a sun team to go with Solar Beam. You can't even seriously argue that it's a bad choice for Bulbasaur specifically because even YOU wind up saying Sleep Powder + Leech Seed would have been a better strategy for this match. If Bulbasaur had a way to stay on the field to keep getting turns of Leech Seed off then it's the best move for that situation, a better critique would have been that if you're going to use Leech Seed at all then you should use it first to get the maximum amount of HP back and the most turns of passive damage.
1 - I said this was for fun and not to be taken too seriously. I said that obviously the games and the anime don’t work together… this is just for fun. 2 - the Pokémon in the anime historically do not have set movesets so it is fair to assume they can use more than 4 moves… they’ve don’t it before. And you’re saying that I should look into how he could have used the moves that were shown?… I mean, I kinda did? The moves used were bad and shouldn’t be used. That’s the point lol. 3 - If you think Mean Look or Leech Seed were good ideas in that situation… sorry, you just aren’t great at Pokémon battling I think. Swapping out to get rid of confusion when you don’t have a tank just leaves your next Pokémon to take an attack and probably get confused too. Bulbasaur flat out cannot take advantage of leech seed against fully evolved Pokémon with super effective moves. Ultimately, this isn’t a real analysis, and is just for fun… but if you want to analyze it in a different way, I suggest you make your own video.
@@heysoundsworth I probably would have had an easier time remembering this was supposed to be for fun if the video was any fun. My bad. Being salty and taking things to seriously is how it be in the pokemon gaming scene. I'd be happy to beat you in a few pokemon battles if you want to test your thoughts on that though.
@@heysoundsworth I don't know if that was supposed to be sarcastic but if it was I probably deserve it so thanks! And I'm serious I will battle you if you want
eqohmgqeohugeqohmg for some reason my favorite type of videos lately is criticizing anipoke battles. Also May would've won against Ninjask easily since her Squirtle actually knows Ice Beam ^O^" (contest battles definitely should've been a thing in the games)
I find your fornite emotes of take the l and doing the floss was very funny. I know about fornite emotes because I’m a serious gamer I don’t play it for a career but I put a lot of passion in video games even if some people think the hobby is not a good one. But hey a hobby is a hobby.
No offense, but this video has smugness and annoyance similar to people who constantly tell you WWE isn't real or accurate to real wrestling. Thanks genius we're aware of that. The point is to have fun and to be entertained not to nitpick ever single detail. The anime doesn't follow the games because it's a different medium and isn't restricted to simple turn based combat. If the Pokemon anime was like the competitive scene it would be a boring show. Thats also why OHKO rarely happen in the show.
Nah your just a crybaby, for one he did make a lot of great points, both trainers are complete idiots and 2 why are you getting so offended by the truth, just don’t watch if your so soft, the video suppose to be funny which I found it hilarious so he did great
Watched the anime since ep 1 aired and had every game. When Charizard lost to dusklops due willow wisp & ash bs i turned the tv off lol didnt watch the anime for years after that
Pointless video because it compares 2 things that cannot be compared. I still agree with the title, though and that's one of the reasons why I quit watching the anime after the first season. Ash is just a tribble protagonist and would literally be a Mary Sue if it wasn't for the losses he had to take to continue his journey. But this guy becoming World Champ is just ridiculous. Of course, character growth is a thing. But there's no way that he beats the best of the best considering his performances even in newer episodes. I just hate this character.
12:27 Ash got re-united with his Kanto starters in the episode prior to the battle. Brandon admired his bond with them and specifically requested a 4v4 against those specific mons. That's why he couldn't switch into any Fire types against Dusclops, why May knew Squirtle was next etc etc
Entertaining video, but with a title like 'Ash sucks at battling' I thought it would be more about Ash winning for dumb reasons (which he often does), instead the video feels like it's more pointing out inconsistencies between the anime and the games.
Thanks for clarifying, cause I really had no idea.
Yeah it’s kinda both. I think Ash made some very dumb moves in this battle (from an in-game perspective) but it is definitely more like a comparison. I’m just starting out on RUclips, so I thought the title needed to be a bit spicier is all
Ash using Thunderbolt (or Thundershock?) on Brock's Onix I can somewhat forgive since you can at least assume the sprinklers had the same effect as the move Soak. One would have to wonder why a building with nothing in it, but stone has sprinklers, though. However, "Aim for Rhydon's horn, Pikachu!" is absolutely ridiculous.
The anime as different logic, just imagine if dodging was an in-game macanic
Imaging if Dexterity is actually one of pokemon Stat. And you need to calculate with move accuracy.
The big takeaway is that it is hard to be immersed and have fun with the anime when it directly contradictory to actually playing the games the anime was based on. Consistency holds more immersion.
“ash should have used ‘said move’”
Well ash’s Pokémon don’t know those moves for one, belly drum on Charizard is an egg move, and since you’re using game logic completely in your analysis, that would make it impossible for ash’s Charizard to learn.
Most of the moves you complain about ash using he’s used in the past the same exact way, Bulbasaurs leech seed wrapping and trapping opponents, he did that to a venonat in season 1, bee drill at the Pokémon indigo league, I’m sure there’s more.
Also Bulbasaur can definitely survive a shadow punch from super weak dusclops, plus Bulbasaur would have a shit ton of Evs invested at this point in the story (going by your logic)
Most of your analysis is just “why don’t they use these moves?” When they don’t know said moves, plus at the time of these episodes the meta game for older gens were barely known if existed at all aside from vgc and not everyone had internet nor did RUclips exist. So most people were using moves that they thought were good and not thinking on stab and just trying to have some coverage even if the moves aren’t very strong or the right physical or special variation for the Pokémon
The writers kept the same moves that ash’s pokemon always had, given maybe 1 or 2 new moves, plus most people watching are kids and are probably thinking. “Yo Ash’s Charizard is using dragon breath! He’s going to paralyze dusclops and win!”
If battles in the anime went the way you wanted, it would make the show pander to serious players and not casual like it’s supposed to be, plus the Pokémon using the moves they have put tension in the battles. The show would be boring if it was like the games, you’d just see one shots and non stop switching.
Exactly, it's been obvious since the show's inception that it's more than the games' code. A Pokemon's biology has been taken advantage of on many occasions like high jumping, grabbing, blocking ,etc. It's just the "Sins" trend now to trash old games with modern standards. Why doesn't Pong play like Call of Duty? The graphics suck so bad and there are no DLC or battle passes.
Pikachu knows Volt Tackle, which is an egg move. Nothing about the anime makes sense, I said as much in the video. Please don’t take it this seriously
Soak is a move that changes pokemon type to the water type when hit by it. So it makes just a tiny bit of sense as to why Pichachu was able to win against Onix.
True, but that episode was long before soak, so I think it still stands as an example of Ash’a plot armor
He did better against Brandon than Paul did
Once again, due to Plot Armor.
Well Paul Pokémon was specifically to battle against the ice type gym leader Candice I thnk her name was Paul would realistically perform batter than ash Paul has better strategies and better iq
@@the_all_blue_does_exist716 cope explanation
the other side of this coin is that Paul got absolutely RNG'd to death in that fight. Man got flinched, frozen, fully paralyzed, hit by every single zap cannon, missed his focus blast, like i'd be pissed too
@@NaughtWalter Yh he wasn’t thinking straight he was letting his anger get the best of him Paul is usually more calm n precise
Your editing is just top class man, i was really entertained 😂
Off topic but some of the battle cries when the characters send out their pokemon are pretty fire.
Paul's "Standby for battle!" was always really cool. Gave off a military vibe.
And then there's Brandon's "I need your assistance!" Like he's such an elite, he can phrase it like a 'favor'.
I kinda wish they did more with that.
This is why I'm not the biggest fan of the battles against Brandon. The Frontier battle against Spenser and Tucker were better than this, and gave Sceptile, Swellow, and Corphish their moments to shine.
Speaking of Sceptile... At least the writers gave us an epic and memorable finale of a battle involving him after this one, along with a certain newly, fully-evolved starter at the time...
Great analysis honestly can see you getting big with this kinda content. Keep em coming brother
6:54 Charizard only learns Belly Drum in Gen III as a Charmander through breeding with Snorlax. And because breeding wasn't a thing before Gen II and Ash caught Charmander in Gen I, it's impossible for Charizard/Charmander to have ever learned Belly Drum.
Fair, but it’s also impossible for Charizard to take a Will-O-Wisp. Egg moves don’t really exist in the show as far as I’m aware, so I think it’s reasonable that his Charizard could use it
@@heysoundsworth Meanwhile Charizard still can't learn Belly Drum; only Charmander can. And only starting in Gen II when the move debuted, while Ash caught and evolved Charmander all the way into Charizard in Gen I.
I mean, again, egg moves don’t really exist in the anime so it’s reasonable to assume Charizard could learn it without breeding
Pikachu also has volt tackle as an egg move but pikachu learns it by using quick attack on team rocket
I feel like Ash would have his career ended by a Rattata with a focus sash.
I NEED more content like this, watching and learning how to play more competitively has to be one of the most addicting things
"Noooooo. Not 'Mister'. Just Brandon." Never gets old. (:
Thank you for this video! I feel like you're speaking for a LOT of people here.
0:29 Pikachu used Soak and then Thundershock 😁
More of this type of content would be great.
There any other battles like this you can think of?
@@heysoundsworthoh definitely Ash vs Tucker, Tucker should have destroyed him.
@@heysoundsworth
Depends on what kind of battles do you want anime has gotten a quite bit better at less bullshit battles but then again I remembered this battle as pretty good not breaking a ton of game rules.
If you want battles where ash makes some game sense look at the sinnoh league paul battle the Conway one breaks some big game rules but much less than this one tobias one has some more than that.
Also kalos league sawyer vs tierno and sawyer vs ash battles are decent too. Though skip the last matchup of ash vs sawyer(greninja vs mega sceptile) it's very cool looking but has quite a bit of bullshit.
If you want pure bullshit like this one see battles before this one since sinnoh most battles generally don't break game rules this much. I haven't watched most of these but from what I have heard they used anime logic heavily.
For later battles see the greninja vs sceptile part of ash vs sawyer in kalos. Mega sceptile frenzy plant is absurdly powerful and greninja defeats sceptile which resists water 4x with a water type attack. The fight is very epic though.
I believe Ash's Swellow had guts for its ability.
It wouldn’t give Swellow armor though
I think the anime logic here is that will-o-wisp is a damaging ghost type move. The name of the move suggests it's a fairy or ghost type move to an outside observer
That makes it even weirder lol
24:20 A better idea is actually one you mentioned in this very video. Ash should have lead with Charizard, Brandon leads with Dusclops, and Charizard clicks Belly Drum. GG.
Outside of maybe a crit Aerial Ace from Ninjask, nothing is stopping Charizard after that. Ash spams EQ or Rock Slide and wins.
I grew up on gen 3, it’s peak
The Pokémon anime taught me a lot about battles because it told me what not to do. I credit the anime and Pokémon showdown for teaching me what it really means to be a Pokémon trainer. One thing I learned was to stand my ground and not do inefficient switches. If there is no safe switches fight even if the opponent has the advantage in type or matchup. Unlike Ash mean look would have not made me scared because unless dusclops had perish song than why should I be afraid to lose the ability to switch because my opponents wasted a move they could have used it to attack but instead all they accomplished is that now they will get hit two times for free.
I've always felt like the anime is more based on the manga not the games.
Bradon let him win anyway cause he didn't use Regirock and Registeel. I guess he felt bad for beating Ash twice already.
I have had some intense battles with dusclops in ranked battles he is a threat that’s for sure with eviolite he’s one of those Pokémon that can stay on the field for a long time. Other Pokémon players I can see them rage quit if they had to fight it but I am very stoic which is an asset when you’re trying to win Pokémon battles and I give that Mon a run for his money.
20:45 recoil moves can also cause a draw
Still iconic
Honestly, the writers hated Ash
I think Ash and Brandon would have got folded by Wolfiey Glick especially his perish song politoad team he brought to one tournament.
You should analyze how brandon destroyed paul
0:25 just like Dawn's mamoswine getting hit by spark and getting damage. I think the anime forgets sometimes
No matter what he still my Ash👍😎And I think he’s cool I enjoy watching him battle
pokemon is like yugioh,you cant use real game logic to explain the anime
And people think that BW ash is bad...OKAY THEN😂
Man, I'm sorry but this analysis sucks. Yeah we all get it, the changes they make from the video game to the anime are stupid but after you see it consistently being different that's where you have to let it go. Obviously Will-o-wisp WASN'T doing nothing, we all know that's different from how it works in the games so it's just annoying hearing you repeat that.
And it's also annoying hearing you keep saying they should be using moves their pokemon don't currently have learned. Their whole movesets are revealed in this battle, just going off the first one Dusclop's four moves are Shadow Punch, Will-o-wisp, Mean Look and Confuse Ray, and Charizard's are Flame Thrower, Dragon Breath, Steel Wing and Seismic Toss. Instead of continuously repeating how they could have better moves for the situation just say their movesets are ass and move on. A good analysis would have been looking at the moves that are actually available from the four attacks we see and say which of those 4 would work.
Obviously a double knock out with attacks landing at the same time doesn't work in video games. Did this battle look like it was following the rules of the mainline games? When you're 3/4ths of the way through the battle you need to recognize the rules are different and adjust how you're criticizing.
And the worst part is, you're not even correct on all the critique you give from the standpoint of how it works in competitive pokemon either. Mean Look was useful so the opponent couldn't fix confusion via swtiching and Leech Seed is the most competitively viable move on Bulbasaur's whole set unless you're using a sun team to go with Solar Beam. You can't even seriously argue that it's a bad choice for Bulbasaur specifically because even YOU wind up saying Sleep Powder + Leech Seed would have been a better strategy for this match. If Bulbasaur had a way to stay on the field to keep getting turns of Leech Seed off then it's the best move for that situation, a better critique would have been that if you're going to use Leech Seed at all then you should use it first to get the maximum amount of HP back and the most turns of passive damage.
1 - I said this was for fun and not to be taken too seriously. I said that obviously the games and the anime don’t work together… this is just for fun.
2 - the Pokémon in the anime historically do not have set movesets so it is fair to assume they can use more than 4 moves… they’ve don’t it before. And you’re saying that I should look into how he could have used the moves that were shown?… I mean, I kinda did? The moves used were bad and shouldn’t be used. That’s the point lol.
3 - If you think Mean Look or Leech Seed were good ideas in that situation… sorry, you just aren’t great at Pokémon battling I think. Swapping out to get rid of confusion when you don’t have a tank just leaves your next Pokémon to take an attack and probably get confused too. Bulbasaur flat out cannot take advantage of leech seed against fully evolved Pokémon with super effective moves.
Ultimately, this isn’t a real analysis, and is just for fun… but if you want to analyze it in a different way, I suggest you make your own video.
@@heysoundsworth I probably would have had an easier time remembering this was supposed to be for fun if the video was any fun. My bad. Being salty and taking things to seriously is how it be in the pokemon gaming scene. I'd be happy to beat you in a few pokemon battles if you want to test your thoughts on that though.
This is the funniest comment I have ever read thank u
@@heysoundsworth I don't know if that was supposed to be sarcastic but if it was I probably deserve it so thanks! And I'm serious I will battle you if you want
I’m still salty about torkoal getting koed by thunder wave
Zap Cannon actually
eqohmgqeohugeqohmg for some reason my favorite type of videos lately is criticizing anipoke battles. Also May would've won against Ninjask easily since her Squirtle actually knows Ice Beam ^O^" (contest battles definitely should've been a thing in the games)
just blame the writer of these episodes for the poor battle choreography.
Why let go of Gen 3? It was the ADVANCED BATTLE GENERATION!!!
I find your fornite emotes of take the l and doing the floss was very funny. I know about fornite emotes because I’m a serious gamer I don’t play it for a career but I put a lot of passion in video games even if some people think the hobby is not a good one. But hey a hobby is a hobby.
No offense, but this video has smugness and annoyance similar to people who constantly tell you WWE isn't real or accurate to real wrestling. Thanks genius we're aware of that. The point is to have fun and to be entertained not to nitpick ever single detail. The anime doesn't follow the games because it's a different medium and isn't restricted to simple turn based combat. If the Pokemon anime was like the competitive scene it would be a boring show. Thats also why OHKO rarely happen in the show.
Man, didn’t I say not to take this too seriously
Nah your just a crybaby, for one he did make a lot of great points, both trainers are complete idiots and 2 why are you getting so offended by the truth, just don’t watch if your so soft, the video suppose to be funny which I found it hilarious so he did great
Watched the anime since ep 1 aired and had every game. When Charizard lost to dusklops due willow wisp & ash bs i turned the tv off lol didnt watch the anime for years after that
He's got a better idea than you at least.
Pointless video because it compares 2 things that cannot be compared. I still agree with the title, though and that's one of the reasons why I quit watching the anime after the first season. Ash is just a tribble protagonist and would literally be a Mary Sue if it wasn't for the losses he had to take to continue his journey. But this guy becoming World Champ is just ridiculous. Of course, character growth is a thing. But there's no way that he beats the best of the best considering his performances even in newer episodes. I just hate this character.
I think you just explained the point of the video
Ash character growth bearly exist