Just a quick note to say that I really appreciate a) the explanation about "Powerful Fists" and the balancing aspect there (between Fighters and Monks unarmed strikes) and b) the analogy of a Monk being like a Line Backer, able to move around and take on a lot of different roles... which I totally understood, even though I never played tackle football (#Merica #Football #MericanFootball)
Thanks! I wanted to note it just because we have a monk in my ongoing campaign who first raised the point to me before we played and developed even rudimentary system mastery for 2e. Like many things in 2e, it looks very strange from the perspective of other games, but once you click into the 2e mindset you start to see the development decisions in context and they make a lot more sense!
I recently started a game as a monk and he's so much fun to play, feels good to hit some monsters with my nunchaku and have them get knocked out with one flurry of blows. I recently found your channel and thoroughly enjoying it, keep up the good work!
I just started learning about Pathfinder, and I'll play a monk. I have different concepts: - Crane stance + stunning strikes + Medusa + wholeness of body + Medicine skill and feat: He can hurt people, but he can also heal them - Stumbling stance + Deception + Stunning strikes: Easy to hit enemy = easy to stun - Reflective ripple stance + wave spiral combo + stunning first and Monastic weaponry: 10 feet area trip + flurry of blows to stun; everybody is in the floor and one is stunned - Gorilla stance + gorilla pound + intimidation skill and feats including Terrifying Howl: AoE demoralizing, letting your teammates prey on the enemy. Now I need to find a group to play PF2E, the hardest thing to do!
One of the dirtiest things you can do as a Monk, is to take the Rogue Dedication, pick up Elusiveness and then take Canny Acumen for Perception. Voila, you are the only class that has all saves at at least Master, plus Perception at Master.
I have a versatile human with the adopted ancestry feat so they can grab dwarven feats. He has the unburdened iron feat and uses the mountain stance chain. The stance is on par with med armor with a max dex cap of +2 with all 3 feats in the chain for the stance. the lvl 6 feat gives u a raise shield style action with the stance. the high lvl one lets u make a stomp that hurts all targets within 20' of u and can knock them prone. I gave them the barbarian dedication so I can get their last save to master and I can use the general feat the up their perception to master. I also grabbed the instinct feat with the copper dragon instinct to up my dps on round 2 to the end of combat. round one he enters his stance then moves up to the target then elemental fist for extra "rock" dmg with the flurry of blows. after stance servant he will gain the action back to be able to or to enter rage the same turn for his last action.
I'm getting to play in a morally grey campaign. 3 players, free archtype variant. -Punk Rock Bard. -Great Old One Warlock (3rd Party, Samurai Sheepdog Faithful Few) And my character.... -Minotaur Ruffian Rogue w/Martial Artist Dedication. (3rd Party Necromancers of the Northwest Amazing Ancestries Minotaur) Basically this 10 foot tall goon is going to be Marv from Sin City, but stumble around getting free sneak attacks on anyone who hits him.
i made my monk before reading the apg. and now i want to wait for a convenient point in the story to go retrain 4 things. i need to get rid of my tiger stance and get into drunken master stance(it has a different name but you know it's drunken master) and i need to get rid of expert in stealth and trained in another(still havent decided which one) to get expert in deception. that way i can get drunken master and with my next feat i can get the advanced drunken master stance which allows for one super nasty combo(if it hits). cast ki strike, which triggers a flurry of blows which triggers a special feint that if successful makes the target flat footed to BOTH strikes, and each strike has the backstabber attribute, and since the target is flat footed they count as sneak attacks(it's a monk with rogue dedication just for the sneak attack), plus all the additional damage of ki strike. so that's about 2d8(drunken strikes) + 2d4(sneak attack) + 1d6(ki strike) + 2(backstabber) and a +1 bonus to attack rolls vs a -2 armour from flat footed, so that's a fairly good chance to hit or even critically hit. and that's just a single action. with the other 2 actions you can spend the rest of your turn just teabagging your victim XD
Not sure how good it would be, but I have an idea in my head for a grapple Monk that archetypes into demonic blooded sorcerer. He does all the disarm and trip stuff but loves to Grapple physically weak opponents and use the "Gluttons Jaws" blood magic Focus spell to eat his grappled opponents and regain health. Other than that he focuses on touch attack spells (or self buffing spells if he can't get the saves for the touch attacks high enough). The swamp of sloth bloodline spell that this build would get seems pretty good for this build as well. What do you think?
Oh that build sounds like fun! Thats a cool synergy and will make for a very interesting character! I think your saves could be pretty good even with minimal sorcerer investment given the monk's spellcasting DC, and having access to shield and guidance (and potentially enlarge if you continue to invest) could be big factors in a fight! I love these outside-the-box builds!
Great video. Now here is a question for the community: I dont see the value of "cobra stance" and than "cobra envenom". The Damage in cobra stance is only 1d4, i cant do any other strikes and the deadly d10 is nice, but its rare the monk crits. And cobra envenom is only usable once in a minute and is not strong either. So do i miss something here or is this stance just weak?
You're right. Monks just don't crit... In a whole combat, about 2h of game, I've crit once and it was on the -4 penalty so... I'm using Tiger Stance because Step 10 feet. I don't even care about the 1d4 bleed damage.
Well, Monks get more attacks per round than the average character thanks to Flurry of Blows (so more chances to get a natural 20 if nothing else), and have the same chance to hit or crit as anything that isn't a fighter, so there's nothing inherently less critically effective for them than other builds. If you're feeling like you dont crit, thats most likely just luck of the dice, poor teamwork (debuffs like flat footed, frightened, and clumsy make it easier to get the +10 crits), or your GM just sends a lot of high AC enemies at you. That said, many stances are not necessarily balanced to be your only, or even primary option, but are instead meant to be possible tools in your belt. So its okay for a stance (or any feat for any character) to be a bit worse than other choices. You can skip it! But players that do pick it up may occasionally find a cool use for it, or it may be the perfect thing for a really odd build they want to try. Just the poison damage option may be handy against creatures with that weakness for example. For example, a monk that has a reliable way to get a fortune effect (true strike, some ancestry options, judicious use of action points - or a combination of these things). At higher levels when you have handwraps with major striking, crit fishing for an extra 3d10 on top of your 4d4 + bonuses crit isnt bad at all!
You are right that Canny Acumen is required, and it can only be taken once (feats will specifically say if they can be taken multiple times). But its still possible. Some multiclass archetypes offer master proficiency in one of these. Ranger offers it for Perception, and Rogue offers it for Reflex Saves, and Barbarian for Fortitude. All of these are 12th level feats within their archetypes. Whether its worth the cost is hard to say, but I do think interesting builds could be had!
a month late but a previous commenter mentioned something interesting. if you make a monk/rogue you can choose canny acumen with perception(that will give you mastery of perception at level 17) and the rogue evasiveness feat at level 12 will give you master in reflex saves. with your paths to perfection you can get fortutude and will to master and legendary(whichever you want).
One of the ugliest combos I've discovered is Champion Dedication to get the reaction, Stunning Fist, and Monastic Weapons for Bo Staff. Bo Staff is a reach weapon. You use one of your Actions to Trip. If it works they have to burn 3 actions to deal one melee attack (1 to stand up, 1 to move within range, and 1 to attack). If Stunning Fist worked they can't melee attack you at all. If they try to attack someone else a portion of that damage is negated thanks to your reaction and they get enfeebled 2. Plus all the potential lost actions.
Thats excellent! Picking up Stand Still to hit them when they stand and if you crit... they don't stand and lose the action, then they may not be able to attack at all in that round, and having a second reaction option is always nice! Thanks for sharing your build!
@@CollectiveArcana Question. Does Tangled Forest's effect work with Monk Weapons? The feat says you can make Lashing Branch attacks while in the stance. It doesn't say you have to make Lashing Branch attacks. And the feat's effect says "...every enemy in your reach...". It didn't specify only the reach of Lashing Branch attacks. So, if true, that means the Bo Staff's reach should proc the effect. Which means anyone within 10 of you that tries to move away from you has to make a Reflex Save, Athletics check, or Acrobatics check or be immobilized. So if an ally steps back 5 feet, and an enemy failed their save/check and has also affected by Stunning Fist and tripped, that enemy wouldn't be able to hit anyone in melee (without additional reach).
It is technically possible for a Fighter to get Powerful Fists and be slightly ahead of Monk in terms of attacks with their fists... But honestly? The Unarmored Defense, Stances, and other Monk Class Feats more than make up for it.
Thats true, but only by multiclassing into a monk or martial artist, which given all the other overlaps between them becomes a pretty high cost. Still, people trying to recreate their 1e Brawlers could find what they're looking for in that sort of build for sure!
@@Gloomfall right! And even still the fighter 's edge in attacks will be negated by the monk's edge in defense, and come down to saves (vs maneuvers) and feats, both of which monk will likely have the edge more often than not! Of course, we should never look at game balance from a PvP perspective... no matter how fun it is, haha
I am honestly a little annoyed with Paizo for how they have treated the Monk class. For one, they finally made the class good for the first time since its inception in 2nd edition DnD. However, then they go and completely make Fighters nore proficient than them at unarmed strikes, the one thing the monk is supposed to be good at. THEN they come out with the Martial Artist archetype which is specifically designed to turn any class into a Monk, thus making Fighters better Monks than Monks again. Wtf, paizo 🤨
There are so many things monks get that martial artist or fighter's don't. The more supernatural ki abilities fir example. Fighters don't get any of the stances - and their fist damage doesn't progress like a monk. So yes, they're potentially more likely to hit, but not only are they dealing less damage, they have fewer options (or later access with a multiclass - and no access to anything higher than level 10), less movement, and lower AC/Saves Fighter only beats Monk in one of several effectiveness metrics (though admittedly, an important one), and martial atrist is limited to less supernatural options. It is a weird thing looked at individually, but viewed as a whole the monk still has significant edges!
@@Nastara This is very true. The speed and action economy means a monk can be anywhere on most maps and still make 2 strikes (or trip attempts) in a single turn. And then have the same AC as a fighter with a raised shield when they get there. Its pretty cool.
Just a quick note to say that I really appreciate a) the explanation about "Powerful Fists" and the balancing aspect there (between Fighters and Monks unarmed strikes) and b) the analogy of a Monk being like a Line Backer, able to move around and take on a lot of different roles... which I totally understood, even though I never played tackle football (#Merica #Football #MericanFootball)
Thanks! I wanted to note it just because we have a monk in my ongoing campaign who first raised the point to me before we played and developed even rudimentary system mastery for 2e.
Like many things in 2e, it looks very strange from the perspective of other games, but once you click into the 2e mindset you start to see the development decisions in context and they make a lot more sense!
I recently started a game as a monk and he's so much fun to play, feels good to hit some monsters with my nunchaku and have them get knocked out with one flurry of blows. I recently found your channel and thoroughly enjoying it, keep up the good work!
Thanks!
I havent ever wanted to play a monk until second edition! So many ways to do it! Glad you're enjoying yourself!
@@CollectiveArcana Probably because in Pathfinder 2e the devs actually try to treat Monks well, D&D is very reluctant to do that.
I just started learning about Pathfinder, and I'll play a monk. I have different concepts:
- Crane stance + stunning strikes + Medusa + wholeness of body + Medicine skill and feat: He can hurt people, but he can also heal them
- Stumbling stance + Deception + Stunning strikes: Easy to hit enemy = easy to stun
- Reflective ripple stance + wave spiral combo + stunning first and Monastic weaponry: 10 feet area trip + flurry of blows to stun; everybody is in the floor and one is stunned
- Gorilla stance + gorilla pound + intimidation skill and feats including Terrifying Howl: AoE demoralizing, letting your teammates prey on the enemy.
Now I need to find a group to play PF2E, the hardest thing to do!
Check out the Pathfinder 2e reddit, they have some resources to find a game!
One of the dirtiest things you can do as a Monk, is to take the Rogue Dedication, pick up Elusiveness and then take Canny Acumen for Perception. Voila, you are the only class that has all saves at at least Master, plus Perception at Master.
Ooh that's a great pickup with the rogue dedication (and opens plenty of other synergies as well)! Thats a hard-to-kill build for sure.
Mega helpful!
Glad it helped! Welcome!
I have a versatile human with the adopted ancestry feat so they can grab dwarven feats. He has the unburdened iron feat and uses the mountain stance chain. The stance is on par with med armor with a max dex cap of +2 with all 3 feats in the chain for the stance. the lvl 6 feat gives u a raise shield style action with the stance. the high lvl one lets u make a stomp that hurts all targets within 20' of u and can knock them prone. I gave them the barbarian dedication so I can get their last save to master and I can use the general feat the up their perception to master. I also grabbed the instinct feat with the copper dragon instinct to up my dps on round 2 to the end of combat. round one he enters his stance then moves up to the target then elemental fist for extra "rock" dmg with the flurry of blows. after stance servant he will gain the action back to be able to or to enter rage the same turn for his last action.
I'm getting to play in a morally grey campaign. 3 players, free archtype variant.
-Punk Rock Bard.
-Great Old One Warlock (3rd Party, Samurai Sheepdog Faithful Few)
And my character....
-Minotaur Ruffian Rogue w/Martial Artist Dedication. (3rd Party Necromancers of the Northwest Amazing Ancestries Minotaur)
Basically this 10 foot tall goon is going to be Marv from Sin City, but stumble around getting free sneak attacks on anyone who hits him.
Its ridiculous and I love it!
i made my monk before reading the apg.
and now i want to wait for a convenient point in the story to go retrain 4 things.
i need to get rid of my tiger stance and get into drunken master stance(it has a different name but you know it's drunken master)
and i need to get rid of expert in stealth and trained in another(still havent decided which one) to get expert in deception.
that way i can get drunken master and with my next feat i can get the advanced drunken master stance which allows for one super nasty combo(if it hits).
cast ki strike, which triggers a flurry of blows which triggers a special feint that if successful makes the target flat footed to BOTH strikes, and each strike has the backstabber attribute, and since the target is flat footed they count as sneak attacks(it's a monk with rogue dedication just for the sneak attack), plus all the additional damage of ki strike.
so that's about 2d8(drunken strikes) + 2d4(sneak attack) + 1d6(ki strike) + 2(backstabber)
and a +1 bonus to attack rolls vs a -2 armour from flat footed, so that's a fairly good chance to hit or even critically hit.
and that's just a single action.
with the other 2 actions you can spend the rest of your turn just teabagging your victim XD
My players did a lot of rebuilds after the APG came out! So much good stuff in there.
Not sure how good it would be, but I have an idea in my head for a grapple Monk that archetypes into demonic blooded sorcerer. He does all the disarm and trip stuff but loves to Grapple physically weak opponents and use the "Gluttons Jaws" blood magic Focus spell to eat his grappled opponents and regain health. Other than that he focuses on touch attack spells (or self buffing spells if he can't get the saves for the touch attacks high enough). The swamp of sloth bloodline spell that this build would get seems pretty good for this build as well. What do you think?
Oh that build sounds like fun! Thats a cool synergy and will make for a very interesting character!
I think your saves could be pretty good even with minimal sorcerer investment given the monk's spellcasting DC, and having access to shield and guidance (and potentially enlarge if you continue to invest) could be big factors in a fight!
I love these outside-the-box builds!
1. How would Hag (changeling) claws suit a monk?
2. Human Dhampir with fangs and wrestler dedication work?
Great video. Now here is a question for the community: I dont see the value of "cobra stance" and than "cobra envenom".
The Damage in cobra stance is only 1d4, i cant do any other strikes and the deadly d10 is nice, but its rare the monk crits.
And cobra envenom is only usable once in a minute and is not strong either.
So do i miss something here or is this stance just weak?
You're right. Monks just don't crit... In a whole combat, about 2h of game, I've crit once and it was on the -4 penalty so... I'm using Tiger Stance because Step 10 feet. I don't even care about the 1d4 bleed damage.
Well, Monks get more attacks per round than the average character thanks to Flurry of Blows (so more chances to get a natural 20 if nothing else), and have the same chance to hit or crit as anything that isn't a fighter, so there's nothing inherently less critically effective for them than other builds. If you're feeling like you dont crit, thats most likely just luck of the dice, poor teamwork (debuffs like flat footed, frightened, and clumsy make it easier to get the +10 crits), or your GM just sends a lot of high AC enemies at you.
That said, many stances are not necessarily balanced to be your only, or even primary option, but are instead meant to be possible tools in your belt. So its okay for a stance (or any feat for any character) to be a bit worse than other choices. You can skip it! But players that do pick it up may occasionally find a cool use for it, or it may be the perfect thing for a really odd build they want to try. Just the poison damage option may be handy against creatures with that weakness for example.
For example, a monk that has a reliable way to get a fortune effect (true strike, some ancestry options, judicious use of action points - or a combination of these things).
At higher levels when you have handwraps with major striking, crit fishing for an extra 3d10 on top of your 4d4 + bonuses crit isnt bad at all!
Is there a way to get master perception and a third save at master? I think both require canny defense, but can you take it more than once?
You are right that Canny Acumen is required, and it can only be taken once (feats will specifically say if they can be taken multiple times).
But its still possible. Some multiclass archetypes offer master proficiency in one of these. Ranger offers it for Perception, and Rogue offers it for Reflex Saves, and Barbarian for Fortitude. All of these are 12th level feats within their archetypes. Whether its worth the cost is hard to say, but I do think interesting builds could be had!
a month late but a previous commenter mentioned something interesting.
if you make a monk/rogue you can choose canny acumen with perception(that will give you mastery of perception at level 17) and the rogue evasiveness feat at level 12 will give you master in reflex saves.
with your paths to perfection you can get fortutude and will to master and legendary(whichever you want).
Irony is that Bruce Lee destroyed the idea of "stances."
Luckily, Monks don't have to pick up any stances and can still use one inch punch!
well bruce lee used the small phasic bent-knee stance.
One of the ugliest combos I've discovered is Champion Dedication to get the reaction, Stunning Fist, and Monastic Weapons for Bo Staff.
Bo Staff is a reach weapon. You use one of your Actions to Trip. If it works they have to burn 3 actions to deal one melee attack (1 to stand up, 1 to move within range, and 1 to attack). If Stunning Fist worked they can't melee attack you at all.
If they try to attack someone else a portion of that damage is negated thanks to your reaction and they get enfeebled 2. Plus all the potential lost actions.
Thats excellent! Picking up Stand Still to hit them when they stand and if you crit... they don't stand and lose the action, then they may not be able to attack at all in that round, and having a second reaction option is always nice!
Thanks for sharing your build!
@@CollectiveArcana Question. Does Tangled Forest's effect work with Monk Weapons?
The feat says you can make Lashing Branch attacks while in the stance. It doesn't say you have to make Lashing Branch attacks.
And the feat's effect says "...every enemy in your reach...". It didn't specify only the reach of Lashing Branch attacks.
So, if true, that means the Bo Staff's reach should proc the effect. Which means anyone within 10 of you that tries to move away from you has to make a Reflex Save, Athletics check, or Acrobatics check or be immobilized. So if an ally steps back 5 feet, and an enemy failed their save/check and has also affected by Stunning Fist and tripped, that enemy wouldn't be able to hit anyone in melee (without additional reach).
It is technically possible for a Fighter to get Powerful Fists and be slightly ahead of Monk in terms of attacks with their fists... But honestly? The Unarmored Defense, Stances, and other Monk Class Feats more than make up for it.
Fighters are intended as the only class that gets Legendary Weapon Proficiency though. So that's working as intended.
Thats true, but only by multiclassing into a monk or martial artist, which given all the other overlaps between them becomes a pretty high cost.
Still, people trying to recreate their 1e Brawlers could find what they're looking for in that sort of build for sure!
@@Gloomfall right! And even still the fighter 's edge in attacks will be negated by the monk's edge in defense, and come down to saves (vs maneuvers) and feats, both of which monk will likely have the edge more often than not!
Of course, we should never look at game balance from a PvP perspective... no matter how fun it is, haha
@@CollectiveArcana exactly!
@@CollectiveArcana
pvp can ruin friendships......never pvp against your friends....
I am honestly a little annoyed with Paizo for how they have treated the Monk class. For one, they finally made the class good for the first time since its inception in 2nd edition DnD. However, then they go and completely make Fighters nore proficient than them at unarmed strikes, the one thing the monk is supposed to be good at. THEN they come out with the Martial Artist archetype which is specifically designed to turn any class into a Monk, thus making Fighters better Monks than Monks again. Wtf, paizo 🤨
This is only true if all you want to do is be a fist fighting monk.
There are so many things monks get that martial artist or fighter's don't. The more supernatural ki abilities fir example. Fighters don't get any of the stances - and their fist damage doesn't progress like a monk. So yes, they're potentially more likely to hit, but not only are they dealing less damage, they have fewer options (or later access with a multiclass - and no access to anything higher than level 10), less movement, and lower AC/Saves
Fighter only beats Monk in one of several effectiveness metrics (though admittedly, an important one), and martial atrist is limited to less supernatural options.
It is a weird thing looked at individually, but viewed as a whole the monk still has significant edges!
If it is weird however, Monk’s real strength is action economy hack mobility and control which the fighter can’t compare too
@@Nastara This is very true. The speed and action economy means a monk can be anywhere on most maps and still make 2 strikes (or trip attempts) in a single turn. And then have the same AC as a fighter with a raised shield when they get there.
Its pretty cool.
@@momierxorz
a fist fighting monk is the only true monk.....
the rest are just fighters without their armour.