From your recommendation, I bought the Netgear GS108 to replace the TP Link. I also added the ifi power supply. Finally I added Audioquest Cinnamon. Delighted with the result. A very nice difference allround
it's a pity that you didn't uses in your test the SOTM with add-on sCLK-EX module with also and additional Master Clock connection that would have been a better comparison to the more expensive Pail Pang which also re-clocked the signal just like the Uptone EtherRegen and others
Finally had a chance to hear an LPS with my EE 8 switch tonight. Definitely improved the sound vs an iFi switching supply or the stock one. I am using a Nuprime 205 supply.
I am more than happy to have both my Ferrum Hypsos's (had and still have the Farad Super3) instaled one on my DAC and one on the Melco Switch, both products are a no brainer.
Interesting that one person was talking about hiss during James Taylor's piece. Um, yes, welcome to early analog multitrack, especially using no noise reduction during the recording. So, you ARE hearing what's there. Early noise reduction encoder/decoder in the studios, like Dolby A, wasn't all that great, so most of us didn't use it.
Vanavond de test opnieuw bespeeld via de setup in de woonkamer. Wat gelijk opvalt als je van kale router naar tussenkomst met switch gaat, is het aangenamere geluidsbeeld dat ontstaat. Het klinkt "analoger" als ik dat zo kan omschrijven. Bij de cisco viel bij gebruik van de betere voeding, gelijk een strakkere laagweergave op. Zit nog in de test te luisteren, maar had nooit gedacht dat een switch en/of voeding nog zoveel kan verbeteren. Zonder switch klinkt echt niet lekker! Btw als het op power supply's aankomt, is er ook nog weer veel verschil onderling. Kort geleden een klein testje gedaan met 2 verschillende lineaire voedingen, en een standaard switching power supply. Als je een oscilloscoop aansluit ben je snel uit de droom, en wil je echt geen switching power supply meer! Zelfs tussen liniaire power supply's zie je verschil in ac rimpel over je dc spanning...
I prefer the single Paul Pang with Hypsos for musicality with better bass articulation. I assume the quad was not with Hypsos power supply but with the pang supplied one? If so, would have been interesting to hear the hypsos and quad together
@@TheAlphaAudio Thanks! I finally tracked down ppa website/blogspot such as it is and worked that out also for myself. I tried to find a single unit the same as in your demo which I assume is an 8 port but he only has dual and quad switches listed on his site with his built in power supplies. Strangely on a Slovakian hi-fi business website they do list ppa single switches of those five at eight port variety so I have no idea what is truly available. You did previously give me a contact you use but his website is down. I will email him directly now. Thanks again
Alpha Audio -- Thank you so much for posting this information! It's very helpful! Has anyone compared using a LAN isolator, vs. a Network Switch? (Pink Faun LAN Isolator or iFi LAN iSilencer) I wonder how a LAN Isolator would compare to using a (non-audiophile) Network Switch -- such as the Netgear GS108E combined with a linear power supply? Any experiences with that?
@@TheAlphaAudio Hey buddy that’s a great website/blog! Lots of great articles in english! But I couldn’t find the measurements you were referring to. There is a product you should check out which I recently got - the Lithuanian company Less Loss makes a “firewall” speaker cable adapter and one for power cords. It works based on the premise of the “skin effect” as detailed by Oliver Heaviside in the 1800s. And it only filters out EMF noise well above the audible range, but that filtered EMF noise makes a difference in the audible range strangely enough.
@@TheAlphaAudio That is an excellent, well written and very thorough analysis! Great job! Also you run a recording studio, no? I’d like to see some pro gear shootout videos/articles as there is a lot of crossover with hifi I think. For example, have you tried or tested balanced XLR over ethernet cable? There are some multi channel balanced XLR connectors that can say send and receive 8 separate channels of balanced XLR analogue over a single ethernet cable. I’d like to know how that tests in terms of audio quality. Just as one example.
@@TheAlphaAudio I saw the measurement results in your article. Some of the pictures of the measurements are reversed for PSU and Switch. So I was a little confused. Could you please correct them? Also, I'm more interested in the measurement results each Switch with the Linear PSU than stock PSU that comes with each Switch. Therefore, it would have been great to have the measurement results of the Silent Angel Forester PSU, Hypsos PSU, and other Linear PSU in combination with each Switch.
Question. When you did this test, were you using power conditioning? I’m wondering if part of the change was noise being kicked back into a shared supply for the other components.
Relating to this question: I power a switch with an S-Booster, and a further if not the real improvement came with adding the ultra, some extra caps and more in a box inserted between switch and sbooster. so, I conclude improvements are not only achieved by reducing noise introduced on the AC end but also on the dc power supply side. Having said that I am an advocate of eliminating smps from hifi, maybe except those few very well filtered ones.
Accept it. The math behind network protocols makes it pretty simple to see that a network switch transferring data has 0 impact on the files it's transferring, especially with audio and the massive bandwidth overhead that allows for error correction in data transfer over these protocols. There isn't a single 'audiophile network switch' on the market that makes any type of difference transferring digital data over to a DAC - it's simply not mathematically possible with the way that established network transfer protocols work.
I've been using just a router! Then I watched this clip and learned alot. Just bought a secondhand nuprime sw8, is it worth buying an ifi ipower as a power supply upgrade or save up for an sbooster?? Fantastic demo. keep up the good work.
@@ac81017in case you went for sbooster I’d add the ultra as well - and do not forget to adjust the voltage. and, even with a linear psu, the ifi dc purifier does some magic..
You could have borrowed my EtherRegen :) Any experience with that meanwhile or any idea / guestimate where it would end up in the test? For me the effect was very subtle, maybe a bit more relaxed sound but again, very subtle difference. Have it still on standard PSU, will upgrade some day.
In fact! If I only use the built-in SSD to listen the songs and tidal (Auralic Aries G2.1) , can I just to use wifi? Then no need audio grade switch / Fiberbox / hi-end lan cable....etc >>> (Does NAS only need these equipment?) Thx !!
I tried to purchase a paul pang single switch as that set up with the hypsos power supply was my favourite from this demonstration but he no longer sells them and I couldn’t find one from a reliable source elsewhere so I decided to Play around with which of the eight ports on my ubiquiti basic switch my router, Nas box and switch were plugged into. I got this idea from seeing how Paul Pang seems to use specific ports. My apologies in advance to the flat earth society Tyre kickers Who may read this and say impossible it’s all in my head but I found every time I switched ports around the sound changed quite dramatically given what a small change this is. The good news is that a lot of the improvement in sound I was looking for I eventually got from aparticular combination of ports. I do have a fairly high resolution system but the differences were very obvious including a big difference in how the bass was reproduced. Much more grip and articulaion I also on another tack Rearranged my gear so that I could plug the router Nas box and switch into a totally separate power point which like my hi-fi PowerPoint is dedicated back to the switchboard and this also made a huge difference to the point where When I played the Ultravox track Mi-Sex Which has fairly deep bass the drivers on my right hand speaker were over driven by the signal which was much more articulate and detailed and controlled especially in the bass which was where I really was looking for improvement. I can only speculate that in their original mix down they panned the bass a bit to the right as the left-hand speaker has no issues and I have no issues another bass heavy tracks. My point to the open minded is you don’t need to spend money just try different things even just plugging things into different power points in different groupings. Thanks alpha audio again for this demonstration which inspired me Actually the only sunk cost when I think about it was years ago putting in dedicated power points each to their own individual switchboard trip switch using heavy cable which itself was a worthwhile upgrade
Paul Pang his equipment is quite good although I had my server go back twice and the switch once. The service however is really bad. He won’t respond to emails even though I reached out 4 times now. The disk which broke in my music server was probably under warranty but as he never responds, the warranty is now gone.
What kind of modem and router do you suggest, I have some strange intermittent noise coming from my speakers that is heard while listening its only in the high frequency range, sound like hissing and digital distortion cracking noises. It's not loud but it's there. Do you have any idea what it could be? Thanks
Loopt er een weg langs het pand? Ik hoor in de achtergrond auto's voorbij rijden? :) De mics pakken alles op. Dank voor de test. Het heeft me overtuigd om niet al teveel geld te steken in een switch, maar wel te zorgen voor een betere power supply.
Hello gentlemen, which switch is better in your opinion Paul Pang single or NuPrime omnia sw 8. They will be powered by a linear power supply. Thank you for your help.
Its crazy but I preferred the Meraki overall. I felt it has more holographic imaging and I wonder what a good ac power conditioner would do for the piano notes ( admittedly not the best).
Net klaar met jullie video die duidelijk de verschillen laat horen tussen de verschillende switchen en voedingen, knap gedaan!! Nu gebruik ik zins kort een op een RPi gebaseerde Ian Canada streamer setup die mijn inziens de verschillen die hier naar boven komen gewoon onboard goed aanpakt doormiddel van een volledige galvanische scheiding van de RPi (inclusief zijn netwerk aansluiting) en batterij voedingen aan de schone kant, in de toekomst verwacht ik dan ook dat we streamers gaan krijgen waar dit soort toch wel prijzige oplossingen (als je het beste wilt) tot het verleden gaan behoren.
Als een streamer deze zaken 100% aanpakt, is er inderdaad geen verschil meer hoorbaar (de Grimm Audio MU-1 is immuun). MAAR: de voeding van de switch - de adapter dus - stoort óók op de rest van de set via het lichtnet. Vergeet dat niet.
Correct, er zit wat dat betreft een hoop vervuiling op het net, maar met enkel een mooie voeding op de switch zelf ga je die mijn inziens niet allemaal oplossen, daar gebruiken we dan ook een regenerator voor.
Was curious after seeing this video and so I tried something else..before my streamer was directly wired to the modem (Telenet, Belgium) and I used a Ifi Ipower x with this modem. I now power the modem again with the orginal power supply and used the Ifi for a Linksys network switch, so I go from my modem to the switch and then to my streamer. I was surprised by the difference 😳 everything sounds fuller...very strange. Maybe it is part placebo effect but now way I change it back as before 😅👍
@@TheAlphaAudio Do you have a preferred LPS? LHY is on the top of my list. Between the Netgear and the DLink which one tames sibilance or harshness best?
Goeie tip om de audio te scheiden van de rest van het netwerk. Zelf ben ik een stap verder gegaan en houd mijn Word-documenten op een apart netwerk tov mijn video's. Zeker als die hele lichte beelden hebben, zul je de documenten minder goed kunnen lezen. Jaaaa, data is data. Het gaat hier natuurlijk om de ruis. . . . . . . . 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😂🙋♂️ Ik ben via via op deze review terechtgekomen: www.alpha-audio.nl/review/multitest-de-beste-switch-voor-streaming-audio/4/ Erg vermakelijk, maar er klopt natuurlijk niet veel van. "Data is data, maar het gaat om de ruis", wordt er gezegd. Maar ja, als je audio over een netwerk streamt is de audio zelf de data. Dat is alvast de grootste fundamentele denkfout. Stel dat dit waar zou zijn, dan zou mijn muziek beter klinken als ik het vanaf een netwerk afspeel dan vanaf de interne schijven. Beetje onwaarschijnlijk, is het niet? :) Dat beetje ruis, dat overigens absoluut meetbaar aanwezig is, zal een fatsoenlijke verbinding niet verstoren. Het heeft geen enkel effect op de dataoverdracht. Als het wel effect heeft dan uit dat zich effectief in dataloss. Hoewel je bij UDP dan gedropte pakketjes zal krijgen, zal bij TCP een pakketje alsnog verzonden worden wanneer het verloren is gegaan. Maar een gedropt pakketje zal ook bijvoorbeeld effect hebben op video. Het is onjuist om aan te nemen dat een betere swicht de bron verbetert. Het signaal komt in het ideale geval onveranderd aan, anders is er sprake van een verstoring. Verder is de luistertest niet goed uitgevoerd. Om enige vorm van bias te elimineren zal er altijd dubbelblind getest moeten worden. Echter is dat in dit geval niet eens nodig. Een simpele null-test zal uitwijzen dat er geen enkel verschil zal zijn. Ook is de gebruikte termologie totaal nutteloos. Er worden bijvoorbeeld hele subtiele oordelen aan gekoppeld. Omdat deze voor iedereen een andere betekenis hebben zijn ze totaal niet concreet. Ook worden er dingen geroepen die totaal de plank misslaan. Kom op joh, een andere switch zal geen effect hebben op een S-klank. WTF 😂 Dit is gewoon de hoeveelheid energie in het gebied rond, breed genomen, 3-8kHz. Met een simpele eq kun je dit versterken of verzwakken. Dit kun je meten en verifiëren met een simpele analyzer. Maar goed, als je concreet gaat meten zie je al gauw dat een andere netwerkswitch geen andere resultaten zal geven en dan wordt de marketing-bullshit onderuit gehaald :) Het blijft fascinerend dat mensen zich zo om de tuin laten leiden op het gebied van audio. Ik kan iedereen het boek the Audio Expert Second Edition van Ethan Winer aanraden. Wanneer je de kennis hieruit hebt opgedaan, is het vrij eenvoudig om door alle mythes zoals die over magische netwerkswitches in deze video heen te prikken.
@@TheAlphaAudio De gebruikte microfoons en hun positie , en welke recorder er gebruikt is? Ik heb zelf wel eens geprobeerd om mijn installatie op te nemen met een Tascam DR-40 recorder (WAV 24 / 48K) vanaf de luisterplek maar dat kwam niet in de buurt van wat ik hier hoor (mijn complimenten!!)
@@holco10 Wij gebruiken een setjes (Matched Pair) Rode TF-5 met een Grace M108 microfoon versterker. Kabels zijn Grimm TPR. We nemen op met OBS in 24/48. Positie van de mics is beetje geheim van de smit, sorry ;-).
So I used to stream with internet over the powerline as I did not have a dedicated cable into the room I listen in. I have now implemented a direct connection using a switch from the wall socket in an adjoining room, and a second switch by the Hi-Fi. The joining cable is a home made Cat8 with Telegartner connections. I have yet to improve the actual shield as the switches at either end (Netgear GS108) are not themselves connected to ground (I will do this directly on each unit) I did not turn off the internet over mains just unplugged the CAT cable to my streamer I have yet to try improved power supplies for the switches. I expected to hear an improvement even in this form......but alas I preferred the original set up 😞 do ethernet cables need time to run in like other cables? Thoughts?
Yes there was a difference the direct connection sounded slightly less full bodied in the upper bass and lower mid and was slightly more unsettled and had more high frequency energy but not n a good way I will experiment more and feedback
I think turning off and removing the over power devices might help The cable is shielded and this connects to the case of the net gear switches however there is no ground connection so the shield is floating I will connect the cases to the earth on the mains supply and see if this helps
Last night I turned off all existing Power line internet units, added an LPS to the switch by the HI-FI and listened after leaving it on for a couple of hours. The configuration is Router >via Cat6 > Netgear Switch powered by SMPS (house switch for everything) > via Cat6 > wall socket > Cat 6 > Netgear G108 powered by SMPS > Cat 8 > Netgear G108 powered by LPS > Meicord > MacBook playing audirvana The original was Router >via Cat6 > Netgear Switch > via Cat 6 > Power line > through the house mains circuit > Power Line > Meicord > MacBook playing audirvana Frustratingly the original just sounded better, and actually for some reason very very good last night! go figure! , I will keep experimenting. The differences were clearly audible, and kind of the opposite of hat I was expecting.
A switch will make no difference to the sound of audio. ! You need to do the test double blind. Some times change nothing, and people will still perceive a difference. The brain changes from listening to analyzing, and both a very different. Enjoy the videos even if the tests are flawed.
@@TheAlphaAudio audio science review did a test with a audio precision analyser, I think down to -160dB. They measured what came out of the dac. Made no difference was the conclusions. ruclips.net/video/BHPwPRLxDWc/видео.html
@@r423sdex Not everything can be measured. If people hear distinct differences that are not reflected in the measurement, it only means the measurement is not done right or it measures the wrong thing...be open minded! Just remember that not long ago people firmly believed that the earth was flat : P
@@TheParadise365 if you can hear it, it can be measured. What part of sound do you think only human ears can measure. I can measure sound pressure and frequency response, well beyond human hearing.
"D-link on the stock powersupply" meaning what ? Does the Cisco have a separate powersupply? And can you attach a D-link to it? And what is a D-link? It did made a distinctive difference for the better.
I don't see any data. All your tests sound just like my computer speakers. Without objective data this is not a test. Why don't you run multiple blind A/B/X listening tests, I would like to see you statistically prove you can hear ANY differences between these switches and a generic switch. Without a way to eliminate placebo and bias effects, there's no way to show that these expensive products have any REAL effect other than to enrich their manufacturers and retailers.
maybe you can just get one and try it on your audio system, in fact , it change the sound postive! i am the ASR fan , but this time i'm not agree this is snake oil ! cause i buy one, and i try it, and it works! just so fit on my speaker system, thats all...
@@billmilosz we did three people AB test by the same song and same equipment , including who is not audiophile. who even didnt know what equipment is it. the result is we notice the sound is changing and become better on my system. base on it so i buy it! All I want to say that is I'm listening music, not do research and and analyze, if some one can pay 800USD buy cable, why we can't pay for switch, and fact is it works! so just try it, and listen it. if you think its not works, just refund it.
@@TheAlphaAudio but you have no ability to configure it. One thing you guys didn't discuss is the value for money and how much improvement per dollar each device brings. If the Meraki combo gets you 80-90% of the pang (guessing), but the pang is 7-8 times the price then even though it was the best it represents very poor value for money. Could the Meraki results not be obtained with any switch that has an SFP port given that you're using a fiber to ethernet converter? What about the uptone etheregen, or wavelength spacelator type products. In the long term will these switches not become obsolete as companies start to incorporate noise SFP cages in their streamers or DACs?
@@Coolesttech I can still login and I have no licence. You can determine value yourself. We just test and comment on it. You can hear the differences in the stream. If you think the PP quad is worth it... Good. If not... Good as well... ;-). Giving a performance per dollar is impossible... It is purely subjective.
@@TheAlphaAudio of course it's subjective but how are you as reviewers or us as viewers able to make an educated decision if you don't consider value? What if the pang was 5000 or 10,000 would you still say it was the best? Likely you would, but also likely say it's the best sonically but not worth the price, and that money should be spent instead on a better source or better speakers etc. Maybe not. These are just accessories or tweaks afterall and not part of the foundation of a system. Returns are diminishing but to what point to we allow companies to empty are wallets without a fair return on our investment
When streaming, the data isn't being sent just in time as it is played, instead, it is being sent in chunks of data that get queued up on the streaming device (clock and jitter from buffer to DAC is only related to streaming hardware). Unless the network connection is so bad that it can't keep the buffer full then there is no difference. If for some reason you are having issues then you can enable the QOS settings in your current network hardware...... After watching a bit further, it seems you think a better power supply is required. This doesn't make any sense as ethernet is a galvanically isolated connection. A side note, did you know that when reading data from CDs/HDDs/etc that a good chunk of the data is read wrong and algorithms recreate the bit perfect data to send. As the data gets sent through the network, it is constantly queued and buffered at each switch or end point including the streaming device and algorithms (error checking) can determine if the data is 100% or not.
@@michielderomijn Ik weet echt even niet wat ik hierop moet zeggen. Je stelt in feite dat we misleidende metingen gaan publiceren, omdat dit zou bevestigen wat we horen. Waarom zouden we dat in godsnaam doen? Als je alleen maar bevestiging zoekt voor wat denkt, dan kom je geen steek verder... Allereest doen we ALTIJD een nulmeting bij groepstests waarbij we meten. Check onze voedingetest maar. En bekijk onze luidsprekermetingen. Daarbij meten we niet alles zelf, omdat we de peperdure apparatuur die nodig is niet hebben. Je hebt het over tienduizenden euro's. Misschien wel een ton of meer. Kortom: we gaan samen met een specialist meten. Als je graag eens mee wilt kijken, ben je welkom. Dan zul je zien dat we gewoon een serieuze en eerlijke partij zijn. ----------- I really do not know what to say. You are basically saying that we are going to publish misleading measurements, because this would confirm what we are hearing. Why on earth would we do that? If you are only looking for confirmation of what you think, you will not get anywhere... First of all, we ALWAYS do a baseline measurement in group tests where we measure. Check out our power supply test. And check our loudspeaker measurements. And we don't measure everything ourselves, because we don't have the expensive equipment needed. You are talking about tens of thousands of euros. Maybe a ton or more. In short: we measure together with a specialist. If you would like to take a look, you are welcome.
Warm it up for atleast 1 month. The soundstage will get organic and uuuuuugeeeeee after 1 month. If you warm it up fo a year, the soundstage will get even uuuuuuuuuger. You will dance like crazy when the soundstage gets that uuuuugee from a whole year of warm up.
From your recommendation, I bought the Netgear GS108 to replace the TP Link. I also added the ifi power supply. Finally I added Audioquest Cinnamon. Delighted with the result. A very nice difference allround
Thanks for the feedback!
Thank you for making such a great test.
Welcome!
sorry ik vroeg mij af weer deze dingen voor gebruik werden maar dat is inmiddels duidelijk nogmaals bedankt voor de reactie
Top
Wow, even on laptop build-in speakers (ThinkPad T480s) I heard a difference when you plugged Paul Peng switch. Amazing!
power is everything! good power = good audio.
Indeed
it's a pity that you didn't uses in your test the SOTM with add-on sCLK-EX module with also and additional Master Clock connection
that would have been a better comparison to the more expensive Pail Pang which also re-clocked
the signal just like the Uptone EtherRegen and others
Finally had a chance to hear an LPS with my EE 8 switch tonight. Definitely improved the sound vs an iFi switching supply or the stock one. I am using a Nuprime 205 supply.
Good choice!
I am more than happy to have both my Ferrum Hypsos's (had and still have the Farad Super3) instaled one on my DAC and one on the Melco Switch, both products are a no brainer.
Interesting test. Thanks for making the test. Ansuz have some interesting switches. It would be fun to see what they can bring to the table.
Great test guys, what is missing here is a Luxul av switch e.g Luxul ags-1016
Congratulations again, to all of you!!
Interesting that one person was talking about hiss during James Taylor's piece. Um, yes, welcome to early analog multitrack, especially using no noise reduction during the recording. So, you ARE hearing what's there. Early noise reduction encoder/decoder in the studios, like Dolby A, wasn't all that great, so most of us didn't use it.
Vanavond de test opnieuw bespeeld via de setup in de woonkamer. Wat gelijk opvalt als je van kale router naar tussenkomst met switch gaat, is het aangenamere geluidsbeeld dat ontstaat. Het klinkt "analoger" als ik dat zo kan omschrijven. Bij de cisco viel bij gebruik van de betere voeding, gelijk een strakkere laagweergave op. Zit nog in de test te luisteren, maar had nooit gedacht dat een switch en/of voeding nog zoveel kan verbeteren. Zonder switch klinkt echt niet lekker! Btw als het op power supply's aankomt, is er ook nog weer veel verschil onderling. Kort geleden een klein testje gedaan met 2 verschillende lineaire voedingen, en een standaard switching power supply. Als je een oscilloscoop aansluit ben je snel uit de droom, en wil je echt geen switching power supply meer! Zelfs tussen liniaire power supply's zie je verschil in ac rimpel over je dc spanning...
100% mee eens! Dank voor je comment.
It sounds (!) professional and "genuine".
Thanks!
I prefer the single Paul Pang with Hypsos for musicality with better bass articulation. I assume the quad was not with Hypsos power supply but with the pang supplied one? If so, would have been interesting to hear the hypsos and quad together
The quad has a build in psu.
@@TheAlphaAudio Thanks!
I finally tracked down ppa website/blogspot such as it is and worked that out also for myself.
I tried to find a single unit the same as in your demo which I assume is an 8 port but he only has dual and quad switches listed on his site with his built in power supplies. Strangely on a Slovakian hi-fi business website they do list ppa single switches of those five at eight port variety so I have no idea what is truly available. You did previously give me a contact you use but his website is down. I will email him directly now. Thanks again
Alpha Audio -- Thank you so much for posting this information! It's very helpful!
Has anyone compared using a LAN isolator, vs. a Network Switch?
(Pink Faun LAN Isolator or iFi LAN iSilencer)
I wonder how a LAN Isolator would compare to using a (non-audiophile) Network Switch -- such as the Netgear GS108E combined with a linear power supply?
Any experiences with that?
Check out the review of the EE1 on our website. We did measurements on that.
I already bought the Paul Pang Quad, and if it sucks, I’m coming to Denmark to complain in person! 😂
Hahaha... It will not dissappoint. We measured all of Them. Results are online this afternoon on alpha-audio.net.
@@TheAlphaAudio Hey buddy that’s a great website/blog! Lots of great articles in english! But I couldn’t find the measurements you were referring to. There is a product you should check out which I recently got - the Lithuanian company Less Loss makes a “firewall” speaker cable adapter and one for power cords. It works based on the premise of the “skin effect” as detailed by Oliver Heaviside in the 1800s. And it only filters out EMF noise well above the audible range, but that filtered EMF noise makes a difference in the audible range strangely enough.
@@BrentLeVasseur Just published (15:00): alpha-audio.net/background/why-a-good-switch-does-matter-for-streaming-audio/
@@TheAlphaAudio That is an excellent, well written and very thorough analysis! Great job! Also you run a recording studio, no? I’d like to see some pro gear shootout videos/articles as there is a lot of crossover with hifi I think. For example, have you tried or tested balanced XLR over ethernet cable? There are some multi channel balanced XLR connectors that can say send and receive 8 separate channels of balanced XLR analogue over a single ethernet cable. I’d like to know how that tests in terms of audio quality. Just as one example.
@@TheAlphaAudio I saw the measurement results in your article.
Some of the pictures of the measurements are reversed for PSU and Switch. So I was a little confused. Could you please correct them?
Also, I'm more interested in the measurement results each Switch with the Linear PSU than stock PSU that comes with each Switch. Therefore, it would have been great to have the measurement results of the Silent Angel Forester PSU, Hypsos PSU, and other Linear PSU in combination with each Switch.
Question. When you did this test, were you using power conditioning? I’m wondering if part of the change was noise being kicked back into a shared supply for the other components.
Relating to this question: I power a switch with an S-Booster, and a further if not the real improvement came with adding the ultra, some extra caps and more in a box inserted between switch and sbooster. so, I conclude improvements are not only achieved by reducing noise introduced on the AC end but also on the dc power supply side. Having said that I am an advocate of eliminating smps from hifi, maybe except those few very well filtered ones.
Great work and thanks for doing this test. Hearing is believing!
How to react when someone produces detailed measures that show there is 0 impact ? Is this placebo ?
only a blind A/B test will tell. i wont be convinced about these types of products untill they do a public blind test.
Accept it. The math behind network protocols makes it pretty simple to see that a network switch transferring data has 0 impact on the files it's transferring, especially with audio and the massive bandwidth overhead that allows for error correction in data transfer over these protocols. There isn't a single 'audiophile network switch' on the market that makes any type of difference transferring digital data over to a DAC - it's simply not mathematically possible with the way that established network transfer protocols work.
I've been using just a router! Then I watched this clip and learned alot. Just bought a secondhand nuprime sw8, is it worth buying an ifi ipower as a power supply upgrade or save up for an sbooster?? Fantastic demo. keep up the good work.
Thanks. And yes... A decent power supply will work wonders
@@TheAlphaAudio Nuprime or Sbooster power supply??
@@ac81017in case you went for sbooster I’d add the ultra as well - and do not forget to adjust the voltage. and, even with a linear psu, the ifi dc purifier does some magic..
Обожаю эту аудиофилию! Love that audiophilllllia!
You could have borrowed my EtherRegen :) Any experience with that meanwhile or any idea / guestimate where it would end up in the test? For me the effect was very subtle, maybe a bit more relaxed sound but again, very subtle difference. Have it still on standard PSU, will upgrade some day.
I think its funny how all say keep computer away from gear... Meanwhile all recording studios have computers in the mixing room lol .. enjoyed video
Thanks.
I already did the test yr ago .. exactly same findings.. ask paul is so wrong saying switches make no difference lol
@@supergwizzo He actually got back on that statement in this video: ruclips.net/video/pCnr1-GDNbU/видео.html
In fact! If I only use the built-in SSD to listen the songs and tidal (Auralic Aries G2.1) , can I just to use wifi?
Then no need audio grade switch / Fiberbox / hi-end lan cable....etc
>>> (Does NAS only need these equipment?)
Thx !!
As soon as a switch is connected it will influence the sound. Nas is not affected.
I tried to purchase a paul pang single switch as that set up with the hypsos power supply was my favourite from this demonstration but he no longer sells them and I couldn’t find one from a reliable source elsewhere so I decided to Play around with which of the eight ports on my ubiquiti basic switch my router, Nas box and switch were plugged into. I got this idea from seeing how Paul Pang seems to use specific ports.
My apologies in advance to the flat earth society Tyre kickers Who may read this and say impossible it’s all in my head but I found every time I switched ports around the sound changed quite dramatically given what a small change this is.
The good news is that a lot of the improvement in sound I was looking for I eventually got from aparticular combination of ports. I do have a fairly high resolution system but the differences were very obvious including a big difference in how the bass was reproduced. Much more grip and articulaion
I also on another tack Rearranged my gear so that I could plug the router Nas box and switch into a totally separate power point which like my hi-fi PowerPoint is dedicated back to the switchboard and this also made a huge difference to the point where When I played the Ultravox track Mi-Sex Which has fairly deep bass the drivers on my right hand speaker were over driven by the signal which was much more articulate and detailed and controlled especially in the bass which was where I really was looking for improvement.
I can only speculate that in their original mix down they panned the bass a bit to the right as the left-hand speaker has no issues and I have no issues another bass heavy tracks.
My point to the open minded is you don’t need to spend money just try different things even just plugging things into different power points in different groupings. Thanks alpha audio again for this demonstration which inspired me
Actually the only sunk cost when I think about it was years ago putting in dedicated power points each to their own individual switchboard trip switch using heavy cable which itself was a worthwhile upgrade
Paul Pang his equipment is quite good although I had my server go back twice and the switch once. The service however is really bad. He won’t respond to emails even though I reached out 4 times now. The disk which broke in my music server was probably under warranty but as he never responds, the warranty is now gone.
Warranty is not gone. If you email within the warranty period it is still valid.
@@TheAlphaAudio I gave up hope on him responding after so many emails, but thanks for the reply.
Chaps, could I ask why did you not run a blind test, say out of 10?
We did... A while ago. Check our channel
What kind of Ethernet cables did you use, the red ones looks cool. Thanks
The red ones are delivered with the PP Quad switch.
What kind of modem and router do you suggest, I have some strange intermittent noise coming from my speakers that is heard while listening its only in the high frequency range, sound like hissing and digital distortion cracking noises. It's not loud but it's there.
Do you have any idea what it could be?
Thanks
Loopt er een weg langs het pand? Ik hoor in de achtergrond auto's voorbij rijden? :) De mics pakken alles op. Dank voor de test. Het heeft me overtuigd om niet al teveel geld te steken in een switch, maar wel te zorgen voor een betere power supply.
We liggen idd aan een weg. :-). Fijn dat we hebben kunnen helpen.
Fantastico...................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello gentlemen, which switch is better in your opinion Paul Pang single or NuPrime omnia sw 8. They will be powered by a linear power supply. Thank you for your help.
Hi Alpha.
Did you mod the Meraki Switch afterwards?
Nope. Not yet. Haven't found the time....
Its crazy but I preferred the Meraki overall. I felt it has more holographic imaging and I wonder what a good ac power conditioner would do for the piano notes ( admittedly not the best).
We are going to mod the Meraki now. I'm curious as well!
I've just ordered a meraki switch and please can you provide details how to mod it
Net klaar met jullie video die duidelijk de verschillen laat horen tussen de verschillende switchen en voedingen, knap gedaan!!
Nu gebruik ik zins kort een op een RPi gebaseerde Ian Canada streamer setup die mijn inziens de verschillen die hier naar boven komen gewoon onboard goed aanpakt doormiddel van een volledige galvanische scheiding van de RPi (inclusief zijn netwerk aansluiting) en batterij voedingen aan de schone kant, in de toekomst verwacht ik dan ook dat we streamers gaan krijgen waar dit soort toch wel prijzige oplossingen (als je het beste wilt) tot het verleden gaan behoren.
Als een streamer deze zaken 100% aanpakt, is er inderdaad geen verschil meer hoorbaar (de Grimm Audio MU-1 is immuun). MAAR: de voeding van de switch - de adapter dus - stoort óók op de rest van de set via het lichtnet. Vergeet dat niet.
Correct, er zit wat dat betreft een hoop vervuiling op het net, maar met enkel een mooie voeding op de switch zelf ga je die mijn inziens niet allemaal oplossen, daar gebruiken we dan ook een regenerator voor.
Was curious after seeing this video and so I tried something else..before my streamer was directly wired to the modem (Telenet, Belgium) and I used a Ifi Ipower x with this modem. I now power the modem again with the orginal power supply and used the Ifi for a Linksys network switch, so I go from my modem to the switch and then to my streamer. I was surprised by the difference 😳 everything sounds fuller...very strange. Maybe it is part placebo effect but now way I change it back as before 😅👍
That's the way to go!
What do you currently recommend in the $500 and below price point? Been looking at the Gustard N18 or LHY SW6 or Netgear/Dlink with LHY LPS.
Buy a Dlink or Netgear with a good PSU.
@@TheAlphaAudio Do you have a preferred LPS? LHY is on the top of my list. Between the Netgear and the DLink which one tames sibilance or harshness best?
@@Temmple lhy works very well. Farad as well.
@@TheAlphaAudio Thanks for the replies. One last question. Between the DLink and the Netgear does one help with sibilance more than the other?
@@Temmple they have a very different sound. I suggest you try both.
Goeie tip om de audio te scheiden van de rest van het netwerk.
Zelf ben ik een stap verder gegaan en houd mijn Word-documenten op een apart netwerk tov mijn video's. Zeker als die hele lichte beelden hebben, zul je de documenten minder goed kunnen lezen. Jaaaa, data is data. Het gaat hier natuurlijk om de ruis.
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🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️😂🙋♂️
Ik ben via via op deze review terechtgekomen: www.alpha-audio.nl/review/multitest-de-beste-switch-voor-streaming-audio/4/
Erg vermakelijk, maar er klopt natuurlijk niet veel van. "Data is data, maar het gaat om de ruis", wordt er gezegd. Maar ja, als je audio over een netwerk streamt is de audio zelf de data. Dat is alvast de grootste fundamentele denkfout.
Stel dat dit waar zou zijn, dan zou mijn muziek beter klinken als ik het vanaf een netwerk afspeel dan vanaf de interne schijven. Beetje onwaarschijnlijk, is het niet? :)
Dat beetje ruis, dat overigens absoluut meetbaar aanwezig is, zal een fatsoenlijke verbinding niet verstoren. Het heeft geen enkel effect op de dataoverdracht. Als het wel effect heeft dan uit dat zich effectief in dataloss. Hoewel je bij UDP dan gedropte pakketjes zal krijgen, zal bij TCP een pakketje alsnog verzonden worden wanneer het verloren is gegaan. Maar een gedropt pakketje zal ook bijvoorbeeld effect hebben op video. Het is onjuist om aan te nemen dat een betere swicht de bron verbetert. Het signaal komt in het ideale geval onveranderd aan, anders is er sprake van een verstoring.
Verder is de luistertest niet goed uitgevoerd. Om enige vorm van bias te elimineren zal er altijd dubbelblind getest moeten worden. Echter is dat in dit geval niet eens nodig. Een simpele null-test zal uitwijzen dat er geen enkel verschil zal zijn.
Ook is de gebruikte termologie totaal nutteloos. Er worden bijvoorbeeld hele subtiele oordelen aan gekoppeld. Omdat deze voor iedereen een andere betekenis hebben zijn ze totaal niet concreet. Ook worden er dingen geroepen die totaal de plank misslaan. Kom op joh, een andere switch zal geen effect hebben op een S-klank. WTF 😂 Dit is gewoon de hoeveelheid energie in het gebied rond, breed genomen, 3-8kHz. Met een simpele eq kun je dit versterken of verzwakken. Dit kun je meten en verifiëren met een simpele analyzer.
Maar goed, als je concreet gaat meten zie je al gauw dat een andere netwerkswitch geen andere resultaten zal geven en dan wordt de marketing-bullshit onderuit gehaald :)
Het blijft fascinerend dat mensen zich zo om de tuin laten leiden op het gebied van audio. Ik kan iedereen het boek the Audio Expert Second Edition van Ethan Winer aanraden. Wanneer je de kennis hieruit hebt opgedaan, is het vrij eenvoudig om door alle mythes zoals die over magische netwerkswitches in deze video heen te prikken.
Apologise for going off Topic. I was just wondering is there a way to measure the noise floor 🤔 many thanks
Check our channel... We recently did a live stream with measurements.
I wouldn't be here if I hadn't plugged a $2000 power cord into my $12 ethernet switch and it doubled the sound quality
Waar gebruik deze Switch voor
Ik snap je vraag niet.
What kind of ethernet cables did you use?
Mooie en interessante test, mag ik vragen wat in detail jullie recording setup is in deze test?
Dag Mario. Wat bedoel je met recording setup? De mics / pre amps / etc?
@@TheAlphaAudio De gebruikte microfoons en hun positie , en welke recorder er gebruikt is?
Ik heb zelf wel eens geprobeerd om mijn installatie op te nemen met een Tascam DR-40 recorder (WAV 24 / 48K) vanaf de luisterplek
maar dat kwam niet in de buurt van wat ik hier hoor (mijn complimenten!!)
@@holco10 Wij gebruiken een setjes (Matched Pair) Rode TF-5 met een Grace M108 microfoon versterker. Kabels zijn Grimm TPR. We nemen op met OBS in 24/48. Positie van de mics is beetje geheim van de smit, sorry ;-).
@@TheAlphaAudio Bedankt :), voor wat betreft de positie's van de mics heb ik al een idee vanuit de video ;)
@@holco10 Goed zo... ;-).
can Quad can be improved upon linear connection with SOTM supply?
No. It has an internal psu.
So I used to stream with internet over the powerline as I did not have a dedicated cable into the room I listen in.
I have now implemented a direct connection using a switch from the wall socket in an adjoining room, and a second switch by the Hi-Fi. The joining cable is a home made Cat8 with Telegartner connections.
I have yet to improve the actual shield as the switches at either end (Netgear GS108) are not themselves connected to ground (I will do this directly on each unit)
I did not turn off the internet over mains just unplugged the CAT cable to my streamer
I have yet to try improved power supplies for the switches.
I expected to hear an improvement even in this form......but alas I preferred the original set up 😞 do ethernet cables need time to run in like other cables?
Thoughts?
In my experience ethernet cables don't really need burn in time. Did you hear a difference between the two set ups?
Yes there was a difference the direct connection sounded slightly less full bodied in the upper bass and lower mid and was slightly more unsettled and had more high frequency energy but not n a good way
I will experiment more and feedback
I think turning off and removing the over power devices might help
The cable is shielded and this connects to the case of the net gear switches however there is no ground connection so the shield is floating
I will connect the cases to the earth on the mains supply and see if this helps
Last night I turned off all existing Power line internet units, added an LPS to the switch by the HI-FI and listened after leaving it on for a couple of hours.
The configuration is Router >via Cat6 > Netgear Switch powered by SMPS (house switch for everything) > via Cat6 > wall socket > Cat 6 > Netgear G108 powered by SMPS > Cat 8 > Netgear G108 powered by LPS > Meicord > MacBook playing audirvana
The original was Router >via Cat6 > Netgear Switch > via Cat 6 > Power line > through the house mains circuit > Power Line > Meicord > MacBook playing audirvana
Frustratingly the original just sounded better, and actually for some reason very very good last night! go figure! , I will keep experimenting.
The differences were clearly audible, and kind of the opposite of hat I was expecting.
@@richardpalmer9616 it is unexpected. But maybe in your case it just is what it is... :-)
do you think the paul pang switch is better than the melco s100?
I dont know. But we will check out the s100.
A switch will make no difference to the sound of audio. ! You need to do the test double blind. Some times change nothing, and people will still perceive a difference. The brain changes from listening to analyzing, and both a very different. Enjoy the videos even if the tests are flawed.
We did a blind test in nov 2019...
@@TheAlphaAudio audio science review did a test with a audio precision analyser, I think down to -160dB. They measured what came out of the dac. Made no difference was the conclusions. ruclips.net/video/BHPwPRLxDWc/видео.html
@@r423sdex Not everything can be measured. If people hear distinct differences that are not reflected in the measurement, it only means the measurement is not done right or it measures the wrong thing...be open minded! Just remember that not long ago people firmly believed that the earth was flat : P
@@TheParadise365 we are talking -160dB, you know how quiet that is. Everything you can hear can be measured.
@@TheParadise365 if you can hear it, it can be measured. What part of sound do you think only human ears can measure. I can measure sound pressure and frequency response, well beyond human hearing.
which version of SOTM you used? 7
SNH-10G.
This would be worthwhile if it were blind or double blind tested. So this is a fail guys.
Ok
i like Meraki MS220 with fiber
"D-link on the stock powersupply" meaning what ? Does the Cisco have a separate powersupply? And can you attach a D-link to it? And what is a D-link? It did made a distinctive difference for the better.
Can you give us the time code? Than I can check...
Jaap said this on 32:50 into the livestream.
@@keesvanwoerden2156 I meant the Cisco on it's stock power supply.
I don't see any data. All your tests sound just like my computer speakers. Without objective data this is not a test. Why don't you run multiple blind A/B/X listening tests, I would like to see you statistically prove you can hear ANY differences between these switches and a generic switch. Without a way to eliminate placebo and bias effects, there's no way to show that these expensive products have any REAL effect other than to enrich their manufacturers and retailers.
maybe you can just get one and try it on your audio system, in fact , it change the sound postive!
i am the ASR fan , but this time i'm not agree this is snake oil !
cause i buy one, and i try it, and it works!
just so fit on my speaker system, thats all...
@@yonung4829So you did double blind listening and got a statistically significant result? Amazing. Please share your data.
@@billmilosz we did three people AB test by the same song and same equipment , including who is not audiophile. who even didnt know what equipment is it. the result is we notice the sound is changing and become better on my system.
base on it so i buy it!
All I want to say that is I'm listening music, not do research and and analyze, if some one can pay 800USD buy cable, why we can't pay for switch, and fact is it works! so just try it, and listen it. if you think its not works, just refund it.
@@yonung4829 Without data it's just an opinion, not reality. I'm glad you think it sounds better.
Doesn't Meraki require a recurring license?
No... It Will work without it.
@@TheAlphaAudio but you have no ability to configure it. One thing you guys didn't discuss is the value for money and how much improvement per dollar each device brings. If the Meraki combo gets you 80-90% of the pang (guessing), but the pang is 7-8 times the price then even though it was the best it represents very poor value for money. Could the Meraki results not be obtained with any switch that has an SFP port given that you're using a fiber to ethernet converter? What about the uptone etheregen, or wavelength spacelator type products. In the long term will these switches not become obsolete as companies start to incorporate noise SFP cages in their streamers or DACs?
@@Coolesttech I can still login and I have no licence.
You can determine value yourself. We just test and comment on it. You can hear the differences in the stream. If you think the PP quad is worth it... Good. If not... Good as well... ;-).
Giving a performance per dollar is impossible... It is purely subjective.
@@TheAlphaAudio of course it's subjective but how are you as reviewers or us as viewers able to make an educated decision if you don't consider value? What if the pang was 5000 or 10,000 would you still say it was the best? Likely you would, but also likely say it's the best sonically but not worth the price, and that money should be spent instead on a better source or better speakers etc. Maybe not. These are just accessories or tweaks afterall and not part of the foundation of a system. Returns are diminishing but to what point to we allow companies to empty are wallets without a fair return on our investment
@@Coolesttech that is a fair point. We will eleborate on that in the written review. Thanks for the feedback.
When streaming, the data isn't being sent just in time as it is played, instead, it is being sent in chunks of data that get queued up on the streaming device (clock and jitter from buffer to DAC is only related to streaming hardware). Unless the network connection is so bad that it can't keep the buffer full then there is no difference. If for some reason you are having issues then you can enable the QOS settings in your current network hardware...... After watching a bit further, it seems you think a better power supply is required. This doesn't make any sense as ethernet is a galvanically isolated connection. A side note, did you know that when reading data from CDs/HDDs/etc that a good chunk of the data is read wrong and algorithms recreate the bit perfect data to send. As the data gets sent through the network, it is constantly queued and buffered at each switch or end point including the streaming device and algorithms (error checking) can determine if the data is 100% or not.
alpha-audio.net/background/why-a-good-switch-does-matter-for-streaming-audio/
Waar zijn de metingen?
Komen asap online. We zijn er mee bezig.
@@TheAlphaAudio Ik wil wel mee komen meten. Want de null test doen jullie vast niet...
@@michielderomijn Dat is nogal een aanname. Waarom zouden we geen nultest doen?
@@TheAlphaAudio omdat daaruit zal blijken dat de enige verschillen die zijn waargenomen, voortkomen uit confirmation bias.
@@michielderomijn Ik weet echt even niet wat ik hierop moet zeggen. Je stelt in feite dat we misleidende metingen gaan publiceren, omdat dit zou bevestigen wat we horen. Waarom zouden we dat in godsnaam doen? Als je alleen maar bevestiging zoekt voor wat denkt, dan kom je geen steek verder...
Allereest doen we ALTIJD een nulmeting bij groepstests waarbij we meten. Check onze voedingetest maar. En bekijk onze luidsprekermetingen.
Daarbij meten we niet alles zelf, omdat we de peperdure apparatuur die nodig is niet hebben. Je hebt het over tienduizenden euro's. Misschien wel een ton of meer. Kortom: we gaan samen met een specialist meten.
Als je graag eens mee wilt kijken, ben je welkom. Dan zul je zien dat we gewoon een serieuze en eerlijke partij zijn.
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I really do not know what to say. You are basically saying that we are going to publish misleading measurements, because this would confirm what we are hearing. Why on earth would we do that? If you are only looking for confirmation of what you think, you will not get anywhere...
First of all, we ALWAYS do a baseline measurement in group tests where we measure. Check out our power supply test. And check our loudspeaker measurements.
And we don't measure everything ourselves, because we don't have the expensive equipment needed. You are talking about tens of thousands of euros. Maybe a ton or more. In short: we measure together with a specialist.
If you would like to take a look, you are welcome.
The SOtM will sound much better after staying on for 2 hours. not just a common design, have to warm up.
It was on for two days... We explained that in the stream.
Warm it up for atleast 1 month. The soundstage will get organic and uuuuuugeeeeee after 1 month. If you warm it up fo a year, the soundstage will get even uuuuuuuuuger. You will dance like crazy when the soundstage gets that uuuuugee from a whole year of warm up.
literally didnt hear any difference on any of them. nice snakeoil
S