Do Audiophile Network Switches Make a Difference?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- A trend has started in the last few years to sell Ethernet network switches that supposedly improve the fidelity of the streamer connected to them. Advocates swear they make huge difference. Others say that is impossible. Let's discuss how they work and whether they make a difference objectively or via listening tests.
Audio Products reviewed:
UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch
www.audioscien...
Silent Angel Bonn N8 Audio Grade Ethernet Switch
www.audioscien...
![GR Research B24 AC Cable Review Follow up [Entertainment]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_7HbjdQRaAM/mqdefault.jpg)
It's so awesome that you're making RUclips videos. Happy to see you here!
A pleasure to be here. Thanks for the welcome!
@@AudioScienceReviewIs there a need for a switch if you have the ability to connect directly from your router to your music streamer?
I just know that if UPS or FedEx made a switch, it would drop packets.
Ahahahahahaha ahahahahahaha Ahahahahahaha
Good one.
Total packet loss. 😂
Thank you Amir. Great theoretical and applied analysis to a subject I have been intrigued about for a while. As a software engineer I was very dubious, however I could accommodate the theory that noise could be dragged into a system via the ethernet port. I feel I'm now much better informed and justified in not spending any extra money in this area of my setup.
My pleasure Chris.
Great that you are on RUclips! Very clear explanations. Easy to follow. Please also make some beginner explanations for reading those audio graphs
I have one planned. It will be a long one though so have to figure out how to best get it done without people dropping out half way through the video. :)
@@AudioScienceReview maybe you can make a little series? One diagram per movie, then the why, what how. describe why it's important to audible effects, what is measured, how it can be effected(by what). Just an idea 🙂 do with it what you want ☺️
Truth with data to back it. Doing IT and computers for 20 years I've never understood why people buy these, now I have all the proof I need!
Sounds compelling, but his fantastic machine can't measure how a human perceives audio. It does a SUPERB job of telling you how much noise is in a system, but not much else.
@John Bravo nope, but I have played around enough with different power supplies on switches to know that differences in sound can be had. SINAD is not the determining factor in audio reproduction.
@John Bravo why? because I have heard improvement with better power supplies? This is nothing new. Power supplies can make differences; it's an inarguable fact. Don't become just another of Amir's diehard objectivist cult who don't know how to think or listen for themselves. I appreciate much of his testing and attempts at debunking...I mean who's going to argue with a guy with 100k worth of machinery that does all the "listening" for you. hahaha
@@heysplangy If there is no difference in sound, quantitatively, then there is NO WAY human can perceives the sound different unless placebo effect. LOL
@@QQ-td9id hahaha. Logically that would make sense...if your premise was correct. OK. You're using all the right words that a wannabe member of Amir's cult is supposed to...but... "If there is no difference in sound..." blah blah blah. The AP can not tell you that. I know you think it can, but it can not. It's going to give you a very good signal/spectrum analysis and extraordinarily detailed signal to noise and distortion measurements. It is not going to tell what something *sounds* like. Machines can't do that(yet). Now...with some effort and some different thinking, maybe they can come close. Can the AP quantify soundstage? Depth? width? The space between? how a stereo image manifests. ...a spinorama for stereo imaging presentation. I get it...you've found the guy with the fancy machine and an impressive (but really not that impressive) resume, and he's telling you all the things you want to hear so you don't actually have to do the listening or the thinking all by yourself...since now you're pretty much an expert hahaha. Some people just need to have their reality defined for them... If it walks like a cult and talks like a cult...
Thank you for this great video. Very informative.
Being a network tech guy and seeing products being sold as geared to audiophiles i just can’t help myself not to get upset especially if my friends think that it really does making some improvements and that they need this expensive gear.
A voice of reason in a cacophony of fools! So glad to see you on RUclips, Amir!
Awesome work! Congrats and keep them coming, it is pure gold Amir!
Much appreciated.
Thanks Amirm! Been working high speed digital RF for years: IT JUST WERKS. Thanks for explaining this to everyone.
Keep em coming, this is great! Thank you!
I am glad you are finding them useful. I have more planned.
Ethernet doesn’t carry noise into your audio or video layer. Amir is so polite for measuring all these switches proving something that is impossible for not being there.
I worked at a GM car plant (Detroit/Hamtramck Assembly) for 30 years in the IT department. The plant was 100% dependent on the data from the servers and the network. If for any reason the line stopped running it cost $50,000 a minute (USD). Needless to say there was a lot of emphasis on us keeping data flowing. Never once was there a discussion about putting different switches in (we used Cisco) that might be better because they had magical properties. it was a noise laden environment with hundreds of welding robots running 18 hours a day and thousands of Motorola DMR radios in constant use. Oh and the plant has it's own substation too. And yet the data still flowed. Rest assured that the 1's and 0's don't care what wire they go down.
Yeah, I have worked with a lot of Industrial Switches, Allen Bradley, Cisco, Ntron they all work quite fine undee rough conditions
How can you explain the original Smps of my Cisco 2960 fucks up my streamer and high end dac with nasty noise. Changed to a clean linear Farad psu and music sounded magical!
@@nicktube3904 If you get a new power cable for $2k it will sound a lot betterer!
@@nicktube3904 music sounded magical because it’s magic!
@@nicktube3904 It sounded better because you paid money for it and needed it to sound better. The more money you spend the more investment you have in the result.
Amir just showed you with irrefutable evidence that the actual data arriving to your DAC is unchanged by these “upgrades”, and besides, if there were errors arriving to your DAC via a network stream the result would be dropouts, glitches and other non-musical events, not better “sound”. You’re suggesting that this switch could somehow add something analog and musical to a series of ones and zeros-making the original waveform prettier in some miraculous fashion. It’s preposterous.
Use your brain in the service of logic, not in the service of aping manufacturer marketing slogans-the internet is forever and you’re memorializing silly things.
Knocking them down one at a time. Another great video Amir.
Thanks partner. :)
Welcome to the RUclips community Amir!
Thanks for the support Fomo.
Awesome review, a breath of fresh air! Don’t ever sellout, we need intelligent people like you Amir to stop the audio foolery.
There is a whole movement of unprecedented morons and imbeciles led by the cult leader Chris Connaker of Audiophile Style LLC 4211 York Avenue North Minneapolis MN 55422 United States who negate the obvious: there is no f. difference between $20 switch and $640 EtherRegen. It is not the question whether it sounds "good" or "bad". It sounds IDENTICAL. Amir both listened and measured. No f. difference. EtherRegen is one more snake oil on the market intended for - sheep. Shaaave the sheep - screams Connaker and his bunch of scammers.
@@Burevestnik9M730 I agree but individuals have the freedom to waste their money as they see fit. Arguably cables and switches are cheaper than drugs in the long term and do less harm. ;)
Why on Earth does it matter to you how others listen? Oh... you care how others spend their money... How so very altruistic.
Does nobody see the problem with his tests?
@@Pete.across.the.street please educate us, what it means.
When you're next in need of ideas, a related test I'd love to see would be Ethernet cable vs Wi-Fi. Love the hard work here - thank you!
Won't do anything special if you have sufficient bandwidth. The streamer use buffering, all will go well if the buffer never gets empty.
I don’t think it was explicitly stated in the video, but essentially what happens is the ethernet packets arrive at the streaming device, they are buffered in a queue, then they are read out to the DAC which uses its *own clock* to reconstruct the original analog signal. Ethernet clock jitter is completely irrelevant.
Exactly!
I'm a software guy and have enough networking experience to finally understand the world of BS in audio. This one hit a nerve, because thinking you may NEED to improve a network switch is hilarious to me. Talk about fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
It is amazing, isn't it? Yet every day more companies are producing more of these. It is easy game. Get a dirt cheap switch, change its power supply and maybe the clock and claim it is an audiophile switch!
@@AudioScienceReview I think, many people want to spend money to improve their gear, even if it sounds superiour. The manufacturers just allow them to do that by creating high end cables, fuses and such devices.
Not to speak of 'high end CAT6 audio grade' cables🤣😂...... Pure baloney i think.
Just normal switch and cat5 cat6 cable does work perfectly fine😊
@@eDXTRe imagine the results of a panel blind testing cat6 cables
@@erics.4113 I guess 50/50 results may be bud more like 40/60 60/40 for furtunate gamblers. But someone who pretends to hear difference must easily be able to get 90 or 100 percent score in a double blind test, which they never want to do😅
Anyone who understand networking would tell you that audiophile network cables or routers are completely scam. Great job Amir
A wild Amir appears
Hello Metal. :) Did I hear right that you are no longer doing headphone reviews? You were doing such a great job of them. I usually seek out reviews of headphones before doing my own and invariably I would find that I agree with your assessment far more than others.
@@AudioScienceReview That's true, and my final video explains it, mostly. Nowadays I try to help audio companies behind the scenes by providing subjective impressions and suggestions where possible if they are interested, and I mostly live on Twitter, talking with Dr. Olive, Resolve, oratory, etc. Appreciate the kind words. Means a lot coming from you man. Stay well
@@AudioScienceReview Are you planning on doing headphone reviews on this channel too? Would be really interested to see those. The world needs as many measurement-backed reviews as possible, Tyll style of course
Great video. One tiny quibble i'd make is that ethernet units are called "frames", rather than "packets". "Packets" are the encapsulated data of IP, and "segments" are the encapsulated data of TCP (or whatever other transport layer protocol is in use). It's a small distinction but an important one when talking to networking folks. Otherwise, spot on analysis backed up with clear, reproducable testing.
I think some or all of us audiophools should actually just donate 10% to you of what we were going to spend on snakeoil instead! Thank you Sir!
Welcome to RUclips Amir. Good to see you here.
Peter from Steinway pianos was in a caliberation with Lyngdorf open baffle speakers that were crazy high in prices but for me it was the best in the show i went to. He also mentioned that 20% is the speakers that are responsible for the sound and 80% the room and acoustics. That is why he was comitted to the dsp that Lyngdorf used for their high end speakers.
Great explanation, thank you for that, with your video a lot of people in Portugal are not going to be happy .
Great video Amir, thanks for this one. Any chance you will do the same for the "superior" power sources?
You are mind reader because I was thinking that was the next one that would be necessary to do! I will up its priority. :)
@@AudioScienceReview fantastic, keep up the great work! :)
@@AudioScienceReview Maybe verify or debunk the $5k Audioquest power conditioner?
@@AudioScienceReview please do so! I am also interested in your power supply review
Thanks very much for this review. A very minor clarification in wording is that an Ethernet LAN switch handles frames, not packets.
It's nice to have an explanation of the graphs. I usually skip them on ASR and go direct to your summary. Even then I take the results with a pinch of salt. Some products that measure poorly can still sound great. But I'm glad that I now have a better understanding of the science and appreciate the way you cut through the BS manufacturers use to flog their wares.
If it measures poorly, then you're just hearing a distorted / colored version of the original signal. Yes you can love it, not me... You can as well buy an equalizer if your like. An example of that are the tube amps that add harmonic distortion, some are not even linear!
As a 20 year networking/data specialist this video is a breath of fresh air. I especially like how you disected the mindset of the people who buy stuff like this and formulated a video to actually convince them. When asked questions like these I generally give very similar answers to people -- minus the fancy graphs and presentation. One thing you should mention is mention is the concept of CRC checks.
Cyclical redundancy check? I have an old hard drive with a CRC error and my data is locked away, irretrievable. Any suggestions?
The failed CRC check warns you your data is corrupt, and now prevents you from using this corrupted data, which is a good thing (dependent on how you look at it)
So the Ether regen is absolute transparent too. It doesn’t alter the signal! What a device!
But the great Hans Beekhuyzen said audiophile switches sound better than those dirty consumer switches. He has an audio analyzer for decoration in his studio, so he must know what he's talking about. 😁
Right on. Hans is very well spoken and produces great videos. But as say, uses his instrumentation for décor. He talks forever how jitter is removed this way and that way but won't power on that analyzer to realize that they have not.
after this "audio evangelist" starts to do this switch nonsence, i stopped watching his channel, because this discredited all the rest he talks about
I stopped watching Beekhuyzen years before the switch review. Same with Audiostream, Darko etc. I cancelled my Stereophile subscription last year after three decades. JA was good at writing convincing reviews of so-so products. Computer Audiophile tried hard but had no technical background or writing skills. Amir is a breath of fresh air and likely is responsible for deprogramming of many recovering audiophiles.
Hans Beekhuyzen doesn't lie, he's a man of great personal and professional integrity, so when he says he's hearing something, I believe him. I don't understand why he's hearing it and I'm quite frustrated by the fact that I don't understand how he could be hearing anything at all, but I don't doubt his words.
@@decoryder Expectation bias is a bitch.
Also, the fear of losing on sponsorships and review units being sent one's way.
Oh Amir, you are talking so much out of my heart.
It‘s like your are my tongue.
Thanks for all your work.
It does depend on whether you’re using TCP or UDP. While UDP is less common, or at least less familiar since the web runs on TCP, UDP is actually very common if not standard for applications like online gaming or streaming audio or video. That’s because they are time sensitive - by the time you would receive the retransmission, it’s too late, the world has moved on and that data is irrelevant. Video would rather drop some pixels or display some noise or compression artifacts or briefly reduce the resolution rather than freeze. The action from other players in online video games continues in real time whether your network can keep up or not. Finding out some detail of what they did 10 seconds ago is 10 seconds too late, the world has already moved on. Etc. Most such applications build their own reliability protocol on top of UDP, rather than use TCP; they use something more appropriate for their use case than TCP is.
On the other hand, data is data and everyone wants fast, reliable transmission of packets no matter the application. Wired Ethernet, as you say, is usually not a cause of problems in most home settings. Gigabit Ethernet has way more than enough bandwidth to easily keep up with even multichannel high-res audio, especially if there is little other network traffic. But for cases where it is too congested (which happens at a lot lower bitrate that the advertised maximum, maybe half as much or less), there is a feature called Quality of Service (QoS) which some products support, which allows you to set some traffic as having priority over others, because it needs to arrive as quickly as possible. So audiophiles might want to get gigabit Ethernet switches with QoS, and make sure to set it to prioritize their streaming audio data. But they don’t need to be specific “audiophile” versions, that’s silly. The capabilities needed are the same as for gamers, which is the most common need for this type of feature and capability.
And of course, if the network isn’t keeping up with needed data rates, it’s likely to be extremely obvious (choppy or interrupted audio), not some subtle degradation of audio quality (unless you’re streaming through some service that can automatically degrade the data being sent to a lower bitrate in response to network conditions, like RUclips does; then a subtle degradation is entirely possible).
Jitter? They must be kidding. Network packets come in when they come in, it could be sooner or later, by a substantial margin. It’s up to the D/A converter to assemble data that’s been temporarily stored in a buffer and use its own clock to emit them on a specific schedule. As long as there is enough data in the buffer, the timing or noise of the network switch is irrelevant.
Exactly! TCP/IP and UDP/IP are used in best effort networks, like the internet, your intranet, etc. So a streamer must use buffering technique (async communication) to make sure it has enough data to feed the DAC even if the packet receiving bandwidth can vary a lot. The buffer can be as big as the RAM permit... As for UDP vs TCP, the difference is that UDP is connectionless and sender / receiver must take car of lost packets whereas TCP make it for you.
For your network, just design it to get the less impact possible from the potential big data transfers between, say, your PC and your server. That's quite easy to do... For internet, yes it's good to get a router that supports QoS, check the Mikrotik line of Pro Routers that offers that and then some. It's pro stuff for ridiculously low price. If you have a more complex and busy network, then a switch with QoS could be used, but as a network engineer, again it's easy to design a network to avoid this while not having to implement QoS...
And for those talking about noise, linear power supplies, jitter and all other inapplicable nonsense, please spare us your complete misunderstanding of networking... Go back study and maybe one day, you'll realize that this is complete snake oil...
I work, and have worked with networks for over 2 decades, and there is no way any half-decent switch can make a positive difference to an audio signal. If the switch wasn't any good, it would have been taken off the network infrastructure because it is obviously corrupting data that a typical TCP stack (whether on a L2 or L3 device) couldn't already 'correct', or more accurately, request again. A faulty switch usually speaks of hardware failure.
Data traffic is far more crucial to transmit accurately than audio signal; the audio signal is carried as data. A switch is primarily created to transmit data accurately (along with routing capabilities and possibly other network management functions), bit perfect if you will. And if data is corrupt, you'll literally miss out on 'bits' of music.
32:26 My spirit animal. Great stuff
When I saw the title of the video, I laughed. I still watched the video anyway, then laughed again. I like my hi-fi setup, and have I feel a multi-room system at about the start of what people consider audiophile, and no further. Diminishing returns after that point in my opinion. I went over to FLAC files running from a central home media server about 20 years ago, to small pcs around the house, connected to my DACS via toslinks, to prevent any ground noise from the pcs getting through to the DACS. Most of my hi-fi equipment is Arcam and Musical Fidelity, with one Yamaha integrated receiver in the office. I have never, for one second, considered network switches to have an impact on the sound, probably because I had a CCNA qualification (now lapsed) and understand how TCP/IP works I feel reasonably well. I enjoyed your video, probably in part because of confirmation bias. Over time, the connected pcs have become smaller and lower power, and the media server has had several rounds of upgrades, but everything downstream of the toslinks has stayed the same. 1990's sound still sounds good to me.
Would love to see a test of iFi's iPowerX - will it make any difference to analogue audio that comes out of the DAC ? or snake oil ?
That's a different thing.
I've seen a few videos showing Ifi products improving the sound of audio output, noise that can be heard right in the video.
@@SwirlingDragonMist Would you have a Link to a specific video where you can actually hear the difference ?
@@Lockk9 Here ya go ruclips.net/video/X5V1JOSjbRA/видео.html
@@Lockk9 this one too ruclips.net/video/bV-gSAcfs3E/видео.html
keep it up sir, this is what we need to stop the new people from wasting money and they can spend it where it actually counts, much respect and thank you!!!!!!
Amir please keep doing videos. Huge fan. I love the honest delivery.
I am still waiting for an "audiophile person" to comment on the "break-in period of the switch" and a proper "warm up process" before it starts working at its "full potential". Because we all know that those 0s and 1s need to loosen up a bit over time and if you warm them up before hand you definitely get richer sound :)
As it happens, the person who sent it to me "broke it in" from what I recall by running it a while. But yeh, that takes absurdity to an entirely different level.
I'm dreaming of a similar debunking analysis on streamers such as a 1200$ SOtM sMS-200ultra compared to a 40$ Raspberry Pi4....
Chromecast audio !!!
@@r423sdex great gear, i have it, but it hasn't a usb out so it's not asynchronous, it could really have some jitter
Can you please post a link to where you found a Raspberry Pi4 for $40 thanking you in advance
BTW: I found a „test“ of the Innuos PhoenixNET before watching your video.
Your arguments are almost the same as my thoughts (I‘m a computer scientist).
Unfortunately I think that I shouldn’t link to this test here but I wanna claim that it‘s rather criminal to fool people like they do.
So keep up in educating us audiophilly!
Thank you sir! Very interesting and educational. Hearing you explain takes your measurements to the next level of clarity.
Amir, thank you so much for making these types of videos. We need more truthful information. I really appreciate the work you are doing. I subscribed right away and watch all the vids you put out so far.
Maybe once you get around to testing all the gear you have planned you can verify or debunk the high cost of Pakedge port switches and wireless routers costing in excess of $1,000 each? Thanks again.
Control4 just charge premium for something you can get really cheap... even pro stuff like Mikrotik cost much less than that!
22:06 - very good and important point to make.
Another valuable video by a seemingly polite, mature, intelligent, well spoken, nice guy.: a rare thing these days especially on youtube. Thanks for putting these out.
Your video justified that I don’t need to get that expansive switchers I just ranned to my neighborhood electronics store and grab that cheap network switch, guess what? The streamer sounds great even just listening to my files that was sent thru the streamer or thru my internet music, thanks for sharing this review 👍
Ah yes, jitter--the favorite hobgoblin of snake oil salesmen in the digital age. Back when the Compact Disc was new, and a CD-DA bit stream was totally reliant on the constantly changing angular velocity of the spinning disc itself to keep a constant linear velocity and hence bit rate, there was a kernel of truth to the claims. With those crude systems, the actual time base was mechanical and prone to error. But before long there were portable CD players that copied the jittery bitstream to RAM, then read it out using a new, more stable clock. Problem solved! And when ripped their CDs and saved them as files, it was over. Yes, electronic jitter exists, but with that, you either get the data or you don't; there's no magic middle ground that affects the "sound" without stopping it altogether.
In my business we're already using Dante and AES67 to send many channels of audio over IP for video production. We're also using NDI to get full motion video from remote cameras and video servers over IP networks. There are some things we're doing that the casual home user wouldn't, from using precision time protocols to limiting broadcast domains through physical subnetting and/or VLAN. Generally speaking, as long as there's more than enough bandwidth to keep latency at bay, things work great. Latency is no problem when a show is recorded (as long as everything is in sync), but can be a problem for live events. We see this with TV interviews using Zoom, with people talking over each other. But jitter? No.
You want to see jitter? Look at the eye pattern of a CD player!
This is eye opening and hysterical. Thank you for work!
You are throwing dynamite in the audiofool lake. I like 👍 it. Btw, your test is flawed! You didn’t test it with Audioquest Diamond RJ45 1000$ cable ;)
Great and honest video Amir, well done.
Appreciate it Derek.
Great work here. It's so refreshing to have science/data based reviews of this stuff.
The last five minuets of this video says it all. Don't go looking for improvements because you will most likely find some, wether you switch out a component or not.
Let the improvements find you, Also, this is probably the only you tuber I believe, most of them are just salesmen. Influence's.
thx a while great bunch Amir. I have been living with my TP-Link Archer wifi routers and using the hardwired ethernet ports for the critical communication, all audio equipment being hardwired ethernet. Whatever they say about wifi.... hardwired ethernet is rock solid. You saved me a lot of headache and pain and nightmares. The TP-Link strategy stays :-)
I'm loving the videos. Keep it up!
Will do given all this kind encouragement.
Thank you for taking time for debunking these kind of snake oil devices.
He's selling the snake oil, measuring jitter after the dac,... Dumbest thing I've heard today.
Finally a breath of fresh air!!! Thanks for all the work Amir.
This is already my favourite youtube channel
It is mine too! Oh wait. :) Thank you.
This is something I've wondered for a while now with my job in Pro Audio sector and Dante.
One can only hope that what you've shown can help at least one self proclaimed 'audiophile' understand the error of their ways. I had placed a critical comment on one 'audiophile's' review of an 'audio grade' Ethernet Switch and got slammed. I think it was that old German guy. While I understand TCP-IP, asynchronous communications and buffering, some 'audiophiles' make there own truths. Kind of like politics these days. People want to believe in something and companies are popping up left and right to meet those needs. Very nice review.
It's really weird to see audio guys ask network guys about what switch they recommend for audio, and we're like "Just any decent switch will do"
Hey, note - I’m an audiophile. Doesn’t mean I believe in nonsense claims by companies
@@waqasahmed939 -- audiophile proceeds to power his 15$ TP-Link switch with a linear power supply :)
I consider myself as an audiophile, I tested such a switch, but couldn’t hear *any* difference, so why should I need one?
Don’t declare audiophiles generally as Fools.
@@goodsound4756 Not all audiophiles are the same and to that point, it seems some audiophiles are fools and have very strong opinions too. I think the term audiophile can be very ambiguous but is mostly ego driven.
Brilliant thanks i obviously doubted an audiophile switch would do any good being an IT admin. You have just honeslty proved that
Simple test: Play back some audio file (mp3, flac, whatever) over a remote fileshare on your network. Then copy that file over to your local machine, and listen to it again. Chances are that you won't hear a difference. If there's was some 'degrading' influence from whatever switch you're using, you'd be able to hear it when you're playing the file over the network.
Thank you Amir for shedding some much needed light on this subject.
Don't listen to it. As humans, we are biased. Just record the audio output and compare the resulting audio on an oscilloscope or in software.
Funnily, none of the "audiophile" reviewers do this.
@@sporqist Given the fact that the makers of said 'audiophile' switches all claim that their gear makes an 'audible' difference, I don't see how a simple listening test to verify said 'audible difference' requires the use of an oscilloscope and/or software.
Yes Amir is the best. I believe in the testing he does. Bottom line: My DAC buffers almost 30 seconds of minutes of data and then reclocks it on the way out! Let your components do what they were designed to do...
Amir is actually a very funny person in these videos. I really appreciate it.
dude has experienced them all and finally sees through the whole audiophile myth. 👍 It's like top-end scientists often eventually resort to religion. 🙌 Guys, tinker less, listen to more music. (eventho i agree tinkering itself is fun. but let's agree not to let psychology blur our hearing.)
Something I've always wondered about with these kinda products (be it cables, hardware devies etc.) - If it can be *proven* to have no measurable difference between 'non-audiophile' equivalents, how do the companies get away with the marketing blurb from a Consumer Protection/Trades Descriptions POV ?
I'm having audiophile quality air pumped into my home, (trace gasses free!)
You would not believe the expansion of soundstage and improvement in imaging!
Circling back to this again after some time. I recently saw elsewhere a review of a modified dlink switch being marketed as an audiophile switch. It was sealed tight, they didn't want anyone digging around in there but what was found was some components with identification marks ground away to conceal them and some potted for the same reason. But the great big improvement was - "drum roll" - holographic decals. For real. Testing revealed nothing of consequence as anyone who understands ethernet would expect and in blind listening testing, most users could tell no difference between two different switches. Of course not everyone has golden ears... ;)
Some of the other digital audiophile upgrades available would make anyone's eyes roll. Stupendously expensive ethernet cables, plastic port covers at just 99 euros each - LAN-Detoxer RJ45 Caps, LAN Caps, Network Decontamination. Its a bit of plastic with a holographic decal.
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To protect unallocated LAN/Ethernet ports from electromagnetic interference (EMI) and dust, as well as to improve sound and image quality.
Highly effective optimization for all devices with idle RJ45 ports.
The formatted material brings about that electromagnetic frequencies are harmonized and electromagnetic pollution (electro smog) is minimized.
Using a special process, which has incorporated our 30 years of experience in the optimization of audiophile audio components, the material receives a special formatting information. The formatted material brings about that electromagnetic frequencies are harmonized and electromagnetic pollution (electro smog) is minimized.
The sound gets more depth and three-dimensionality. The timing gains precision and the dynamics are increased. Altogether the tuning with "brand name deleted" formatted accessories brings considerably more naturalness and emotionality. The music sounds less canned and gets more live character. Normally, the tonality is not being affected. The sound does not become brighter or darker.
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And so on.
For a bit of retro fun google this: "denon audio ethernet cable". Settle in for a good time as you review the comments. Denon deservedly got trolled hard.
Amir!
Thank you so much for making vids. Love your reviews!
I love this video, “you don’t listen to ethernet packets”. True true 😅
Me new favourite RUclips channel. More please.
Thanks Chester. Was only going to do these videos occasionally but seeing the reaction, you can expect more.
The only reason to buy some kind of audio-oriented network switch is very plainly: If you need a device with EtherCon jacks for rugged use cases (e.g. stagebox connections, etc...). Otherwise, there's no benefit to using a device that advertises some improvement in audio quality.
That said, there actually _are_ some network switches that perform better than others due to their implementation of certain IEEE standards. These generally are only important if you're using Audio over IP (AoIP) technologies such as Dante, Ravenna, and/or AES67. Namely: 802.3az Energy-Efficient Ethernet (EEE) and buggy implementations of IGMP Snooping (RFC 4541) can cause PTP clock sync issues & subsequent audio drop-outs. Other than that, I've never seen a piece of network gear cause a problem so long as it allows for turning off 802.3az (EEE), and implements IGMP snooping properly (e.g. for multicast streams & PTP broadcast packets). That said, some unmanaged network switches and even an older model of MoCA adapter that I have both seem to caues PTPv2 sync issues because they implement 802.3az (EEE) in hardware, with no way to switch it off. This causes the ethernet ports to enter a low power state periodically, which can contribute to other devices with less accurate internal PTP clocks to drift and de-synchronize just enough to cause the devices to mute their Dante or AES67 streams. Note that PTPv2 can be extremely accurate, with nanosecond level precision of clock sync between these devices otherwise, so it's very sensitive to 802.3az (EEE).
You seem to be lagging on knowledge for at least 10 years. The concept of jitter misleads people into thinking that all you need in a digital signal is the correct bits (which is relatively trivial to transmit) with great timing (low jitter), and so all you need is a great clock. This simplistic view is highly misleading. At least three things matter - the clock, noise and bandwidth. In the image of a perfect square wave, the horizontal axis is time and the vertical axis is voltage. We will assume the clock is perfect - ie. the vertical signal lines occur at perfectly spaced intervals (the bit rate). When the signal is representing a binary 0, it is at 0v. When the signal is representing a binary 1, it is at 1v. And we will assume that the receiver of this signal decides that the transition between a 0 and a 1 has occurred when the signal rises through the 0.5v level, and that a 1 has transitioned to a 0 when the signal falls through the 0.5v level. Now imagine that there is noise added to the signal. If the frequency of the noise is below the bitrate then this perfect square wave swims on top of a longer and smoother wave. The interesting point is that the timing between the data transitions (where those vertical lines pass through 0.5v) is unchanged. So no problem, yet. If the frequency of the noise is above the bitrate then the horizontal lines get fuzzy. And if we combine the low frequency noise with the high frequency noise the effect is combined. Again, the interesting point to note is that the timing between the data transitions (where those vertical lines pass through 0.5v) is unchanged provided the noise is not extremely high. So, again, no problem. Noise, on its own (as long as the deviations caused are materially below 0.5v) is not a problem. The reason it is not a problem is those vertical lines, because noise does not change the space between them.
Now imagine there is no noise. Zero noise is impossible, but something else that is impossible is the vertical line on the square wave, since it requires infinite bandwidth. The vertical lines imply the signal can achieve 0v and 1v in more or less the same instant. Whatever tools we have to transmit a signal, the demands of high bit-rate signals are way beyond what the available tools can deliver. Think about how your analog cables can mess with sound up to around 20kHz, and then think about the enormously wider frequency range required of a digital cable (and, optical cables just have a different set of problems, mainly related to reflections). The higher the bit rate the harder it gets. When we allow for constrained bandwidth, instead of transitions being instantaneous, the signal goes up a slope when transitioning from 0v to 1v, and down a slope when transitioning from 1v to 0v. If the bandwidth was the same as the bitrate then the signal would be a sine wave. To reasonably square out the signal you need to add several harmonics of the bitrate (say 7 or more) above the bitrate, and that is a lot of bandwidth - even more for higher bit rate signals. By adding harmonics, the sine wave begins to square out. Interestingly, in both of these constrained-bandwidth examples, the transitions through 0.5v are still perfectly spaced - even with the sine wave. So still no problem.
But as I mentioned, a higher bitrate signal (if you think high bitrate files must always sound better) requires even more bandwidth to square out the wave, and so in a system that has a finite limit on bandwidth, a lower bitrate signal will be more accurately represented than a high bitrate signal. On top of that, if you ask anything in a music server to work faster, it will work with less precision and this is a key trade-off to be aware of when you assume higher bit rates must be better, just because the numbers are bigger. These examples only allow us to conclude that there is no problem if we can achieve zero noise or infinite bandwidth. But each of those goals is unattainable, and the problem becomes apparent when there is both noise and constrained bandwidth. So what happens if we add a low frequency noise component to a frequency-constrained digital audio signal? All of sudden, the 0.5v points are shifted right or left by the addition of the low frequency noise that lifts or drops the signal between bits. Shifting the slopes up or down shifts the 0.5v points left or right. The greater the amplitude of the noise, and the greater the bandwidth constraint, the greater is the effect on timing (jitter).
Now if we add high frequency noise to a frequency-constrained signal you can see that the transition timing at precisely 0.5v is now hard to discern for any digital receiver. If the signal is vertical at the transition then noise does not affect it. But as soon as the transition is not vertical then noise changes the transition point. It is the combination of constrained bandwidth and noise that inevitably creates jitter (variation in data transition timing), regardless of how great the clock is.
Yay ! Finally someone that shows us what we mere mortals already know. I have friends that belive these things actually work !
Please send me their contact details - I have a mountain of power cords and other junk that I'm gonna spray with pure snake oil and sell for $600 each 😄
Gotta change the channel picture to ASR
Thanks. I was blind to it being the generic one. Just fixed it.
Sir, sorry for the expression, but you're kick*ss ! Love your work ! I'm ITman and an rookie audiophile. And I'll stay rookie AF...
When I first heared for audiograde UTP cables, that was too much for me ...
They do work. But you are again testing it from a point of view that it will not work, and only searching for that.
This is the full truth:
1. There are classes of switches.
2. There are classes of audiophile switches.
3. In order to hear any of this, you need a music system that is at least 3x better than what you currently own.
I know this since I have done the tests myself with a friend. (they do not work on normal peoples gear only the extreme stuff)
4. Most switches and even audiophile switches are so low quality, that it is more a gimmick than something that actually works. (only with this specific part of the market are you right)
But there are some few ones that really work.
5. The most important things besides having a system where you can hear this. Is that you then also have a much better PSU than the default one that comes with the switch.
This typically costs 500-1000 dollars, and I am not talking about a normal sissy PSU, I am talking about unofficial stuff that does not exist in stores. (Kenneth Lau types)
6. Again to hear all of this, you also need a custom made streamer with also a custom made LPSU, and again it being custom made, does not automatically make it great. You most likely have to go through 1 handful to find the ones that really make a difference.
So in the end it works and makes a noticable difference, but not OMG big difference. But requires that you at least have something like a 50k USD system, that is set up in a way that is perhaps 3x better than what you typically see in the store.
And forget about measuring this, in Audio you cannot measure good sound. Only sound manipulation and extremes.
And just 1 fact you got wrong: A switch, a streamer, a DAC usually has a clock timing. And that is the thing you are missing, because having a better PSU improves that timing. And this is not something that you really can test.
And going from a standard ISP modem or router to a big switch like a cisco, then combined with a good external LPSU, then improves this timing. But again, how are you going to notice this without anything to measure this timing or even have a system that can show that of?
If you do not believe me, tell me when you land in Denmark. And then I will give you the contact number from a guy that has the best streamer in the world. Then he can do an a/b test that you can hear for yourself. This is not a message to tell you are wrong. Because you are right within a certain context. But this here is the full truth, which anyway is a bit irrelevant because 99% of audiophiles will never take their system to this level anyway.
Have you got a system with a noise floor of -160 db ? That's what level he is testing at !
Every decent DAC has a reclocker. So, any jitter present in the switch will be eliminated by the DAC.
@@antoniosetz1354 Reducing the jitter before the reclocker is much more effective.
So in theory you can have several that filter out the noise before the DAC.
That's not the point. It the level you do it at, that creates the good sound.
JCAT XE card also has a reclocker built in.
So the guy who invents it, says: Now you don't have to use a reclocker anymore.
Again, that truth is very relative. Yes you can of course do that.
But having a Uptown audio isoregen, with a modificed LPSU is much much better. So there is no reason to not do it.
But if a guy used a Jcat card and only used a weak LPSU to his uptown audio isoregen, then I would definetely not use that before it hits the DAC. Because that is a liability, that could destroy the sound.
So everything is relative. It's just a question of, how high a level do you want to solve the problem at.
Thanks a lot Amir! Great channel!
There are so many scammers on the internet that try to sell these "audiophile switches," claiming ridiculous improvements with no proof. This video is really informative and conclusive
Just want to say that your comments at the end made so much sense and even though it is obvious I needed to hear you say it out loud to hammer it home for me. That is why more and more I count on my wife to comment on her feelings whenever I change things in my system. She has no emotion when it comes to the gear so I can always count on an honest opinion from her.
Didn't even know "audiophile" switches existed lol. Thanks for everything Amir looking forward for more content!
Audiophiles can have neurosis about practically anything. Ever heard about cable lifters? :-)
Nah, switches are still rookie level snake oil. For the true tin foil hat experience, there's ambient field conditioners... :D
@@MosoKaiser Had to Google this -- had a good laugh.. If you read their descriptions, Ambient Field Conditioners are basically feature compatible with anti chemtrail orgones 😂
GENERAL ASR COMMENT. My problem with all these measurements Amir does (referring to everything) is, I’m not smart enough to know how relevant/useful they really are. It’s great that everything is so technical, but how would I know, for example, if placing a mic in right front of a speaker is the way to test a speaker? And how do I know about how the environment affects that test? I’m not really an “audiophile”, I just like music. I don’t have the technical knowledge to know if a lot of these things are relevant. The biggest things making an impact that I’ve noticed are: 1. Recording and Mastering “source file” 2. Speaker and power 3. Room treatment/acoustics, and room treatment/acoustics is arguably second. So I’m glad he shows that many pieces of equipment are irrelevant because it lines up with my experience. Nothing else I’ve bought really made as much difference as those things. Maybe the DAC could be considered important.
By the way I really appreciated Amir’s video explaining how to make sense of a frequency response chart and how it related to psycho acoustics.
First here! Glad to see you again, Amir!
Man you are fast! :)
I have one. It works. I would like to know why, too. System is Lampizator Horizon into Dagostino Momentum into Magico M3. It works on my Topping D90, too.
It works - because you expect it to work....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer-expectancy_effect
awesome video, i live and worked for a while in the audiophile buiseness and always had to turn away and resist laughing out loud after hearing this bs ;)
You must have a lot of patience spending all that time to prove something that you know already without any test. And I am pretty sure you still won't convince those audiophiles who "hear" the not existing difference. But hey, it's fun listening to you. Thanks
All he proved is that he doesn't know how to measure jitter or noise.
They have to. To justify 800 quid router under the desk :D
@@Pete.across.the.street You just exposed you don't have a clue about networking / engineering... And yes he knows about noise and jitter measurements and he even has the expensive equipment to do it...
@@guyboisvert66 how did i do that?
The English Electric switch seems popular - but it is slow.
I have my 2-NAS drives, Auralic Altair G2.1 (Streamer with SSD), Roon Nucleus+ (with SSD), Apple TV and various hifi items and my MBP all connected via 10G/1G/100mb switch(s) and cat-7 cables.
I am not aware of signal degradation or noise -- but there are issues with playback on DSD512 and similar sources.
Hence why I added an SSD to my Altair. This is now my "home" for all very high definition audio files I own -- all the content I bought from NativeDSD and HDTracks is now on the Altair's internal SSD. Roon and Qubuz both play via ethernet streamed via the Nucleus or Altair. Output is via balanced audio cables and a valve headphone amp to the balanced analogue input on my A=V amp.
I am modifying my set up to move my MBP out off the direct chain for playback of audio/video files.
HOWEVER -- recently I have suffered my MBP intermittently dropping both the ethernet and wireless connection - solving this is next on my list.
Its worth mentioning that managed/enterprise switches do exist that support prioritisation for QoS in time sensitive aes67/avb etc audio streams that rely on end-to-end latency being within strict limits for real time audio distribution applications
It would be interesting to see the prosumer/audiophile world adopt such standards for IP distribution, as the pro world is, but I won’t hold my breath.
Thing is, you only really need TSN (formerly AVB), if you are in a Studio/ live environment, where you record and monitor at the same time. Latency can become a major problem in these applications but as long as you are just listening, you really don't need it.
AES67 does something similar like TSN but it works on layer 3 so you don't even need special network switches for using it. Also, it's only really used with proprietary protocols like RAVENNA, Livewire, Q-LAN and Dante. I haven't seen any "audiophile" products supporting these proprietary protocols.
Also, AES67 is more like a last ditch effort by proprietary audio equipment manufacturers to stay relevant, before TSN is widely adopted.
Listening to digital music at home is never real time - there is always a buffer between the media and the DAC which adds some delay.
You don't need this in a consumer network... I don't think you'll pass synchronous multi-channels mixer traffic on your network... Never throw money into something you don't need, let alone won't be able to use / manage...
If I'd just spent $640 I'd definitely be telling myself it made things sound better! The power of the mind should never be underestimated :) We know for a fact how much better people can feel health wise when taking placebos. In fact research has even shown that the placebo effect can continue to work when people are informed they are taking the placebo!
so did you hear sth's changed? Im afraid not that you can hear some small/placebo improvement, but that you jumped down the drain and can hear a clear improvement with ER+LPS+clock ++ OpticalrenduStack+clock+thisandthat
I just saw on John Darko's channel, (just release informaiton, not a test of) the new Innuos PhoenixNET audiophile ethernet switch for $3500! What!?!
Your video justified that I don’t need to get that expansive switchers I just ranned to my neighborhood electronics store and grab that cheap network switch, guess what? The streamer sounds great even just listening to my files that was sent thru the streamer or thru my internet music, thanks for sharing this review 👍
I have to say what audiophiles are saying in this case: sir, but you didn't break in that cable and switch and whatever. you need to use them 1-2 weeks and then repeat the tests :D
Absolutely do ..made a huge difference going optical and using linear supply...2 inch cables
Amir, you and Gene at Audioholics are doing god's work. Thank you for bringing honesty and accountability to the audio industry. I am a network engineer by trade and also an audiophile. While there are a few things that could impact audio quality like bandwidth, latency, and packet loss, all of which you touched on, they are all measurable and as we see in the measurements, the claims of this switch are nonsense.
You mentioned extreme cases, which I would say is if the wiring in your house is bad or run next to power cables or if you are over the 100m ethernet distance limits but obviously the remedy for those situations would be to fix them at the source and not purchase additional high end gear that may or not improve the situation.
Gene did get me to drop a ton of money on my Revel speakers. Money well spent though. The 126be are by for my most expense component by several thousand.
Yeah i was just offered a deal of EtherRegen and this opened my eyes
Thanks Amir
Brilliant. You made me go and touch my cheap-o $20 switch under my desk just to make sure. It was cold as a stone. :)
I recently bought the 80 dollar ifi lan silencer everyone raves about. I noticed no difference whatsoever. I even let it break in for a couple weeks, i know but had to try, and nothing. Didn’t even have to blind test it. This is certainly the latest audio foolery gimmick. If audio enthusiasts would just spend their money on their room instead of this stuff, they would really understand what their current system can ultimately sound like. Thanks for the outstanding work. Peace and happy listening.
Your experience puzzles me: i have one in my system, and another one occasionally.. because it changes the SQ, and also, at least in my system, the a bit of the frequency response, i.e. usually and in all positions the ifi device can be inserted, deep bass seems an idea lighter, while treble quality, spatial width and definition, voice etc is improved.
Could be your streamer is really not at all susceptible to whatever the ifi device filters. Allegedly Grimm Audio offers one that really doesn’t react on any upgrade upstream the ethernet path, most budget friendly ones are said to do, however. My pro-ject streambox s2 ultra definitely is.
@@gioponti6359 For anyone to say that a particular component doesn't work in all situations is certainly a mistake since understanding the true nature of all potential use cases is nearly impossible. So if you're hearing an improvement and you are happy with the result, then it's a good choice for you. Personally, I have never heard a difference when it comes to these types of components. Perhaps that may change in the future, but for now, I find spending money elsewhere a lot more scientifically proven and noticeable without question. IMO, your room is more than 50% of your end result. Many people spend money on this stuff before they treat their rooms. That's a huge mistake IMO. Without knowing your situation, that's just a general statement. Your speaker position and room treatment might be great already, but in my experience, most people tend to ignore it completely. Having the right room can be mind-blowing and change your perception of just how good 2 channel audio can be. I'm still on my journey there as well. Peace and happy listening.
@@gioponti6359 You don't have a clue about networking and engineering, please spare us your snake oil...
@@guyboisvert66 pls look up the actual meaning of “snake oil” b4 you use the term, unless in your book easily discernible differences go together with “snake oil”.
how about you reach out to some manufacturers and see if they are willing to comment? e.g. Thunder Data, Melco, Innuos, UpTone ? Do you ever do this?
Nice video! Would you anticipate any difference if a PoE switch is thrown into the mix?
I do not. The barrier to noise from Ethernet is so strong that it doesn't matter what is on the other side. Now, if you use POE to power your gear -- which is rare -- then its dirty nature may make a difference. I have tested one such product: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dante-avio-review-streaming-audio-interfaces.19062/
Too happy to see you talking about shitty products and shitty brands Kudos for the Slient Angel N8 fraud ;)