RF Interference in Speaker Cables???
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Even though RF field is quite complex, audiophiles and youtubers alike have simplified it for themselves, concluding it is a serious problem for audio systems including that of speaker cables. Simplistic tests shown online claim to demonstrate the problem with cheap speaker cables. In reality, the tests are not proper as I demonstrate and explain in this video.
When I saw the other video I realized he has no formal training with electronic engineering. It is EE 101 that (1) any conductor can be an antenna, (2) power harvested from such antenna is very, very small and (3) such tiny power will have no effect on loudspeakers, and (4) the signal meter on a FM receiver has no relevancy to how speaker wire performs.
And yes, the placebo effect is real.
Thank you for putting the response up and I always find your review very informational.
These debunking videos are extremely helpful. Would love to see more. Thank you.
Agreed.
Me too! Bring it on!
Why, how do you know they are debunking, just because???
@@nicoras8803 I think in the video it's already talk simple enough and showing every necessary data and evidence to prove how they're wrong and how should be right, If all these information still not enough to allowing you to distinguish what is true and false then you should stay in this channel keep learning everything from a technical Emmy award winner a truly best electronic engineer in the world.
He should connect a speaker to the cable also and show that the RF noise drops to zero because of the low impedance.
Amir it's so good to have another dog in this fight. Let's livestream together when we both find the time.
What fight? It's about music, not fighting.
@@ujean56 I guess he is referring to these snake oil claims prevalent in Hifi world. Fight against them by debunking them and trying to show people what is what with facts.
@@ujean56 It's about making a profit selling wire and how it's done. We need solid, proven by fact, information that is actually useful in getting the most out of our music systems.
That's a great idea 💡
Gene, please do! You two have a great deal of experience measuring electronics. I mean you're scientists.
Those big spikes on the spectrometer is Danny screaming obscenities over the airwaves
:)
This is such a great channel . You just started but it's already so good and professional and interesting to watch. Can't wait to see how it grows. Thank you for everything you do!
Thank you so much. I didn't expect this kind of reception and motivates me to do more.
Just go to Audio Precision's website and buy an analyzer then film yourself with a cell phone. You can have a channel like this even if you have no idea what you're actually measuring. No electrical circuit design knowledge necessary.
@@Obinjess what are you talking about?
Debunking audio myths! Great video and please keep them coming?
Can't get enough of these videos learn something new every time. Thanks Amir!
When you have a tube amp, the grid has a resistor called a grid stopper. Amir I would suggest that you read up on them before you say RF can not have an effect on the audio.
Could you please do a Video on expensive Powercables, Linear Power Supplys and power conditioners? It would be really interesting to see if there are measrueable effects in any of these or whether they don't have any measurable effects.
Sure, I have fair bit of material on that already. :)
@@AudioScienceReview Awesome!
@John Bravo
If a power conditioner helps, your amplifier has a crappy power supply.
hey bro after 48 years i can tell you that no power conditioners can give you a real "impact" you will never feel the dynamics of the music like being connected directly to the power line .i have two lines to my main power board each off them is a speaker cable of supra model ply 3.4 used as a live and natural . the best way to connect grounding is to separete it from those cables so i put 5 cm copper foil all the way to board . i get pitch black on 200 w amp full power no music .no noise at all.the sound stage is hugh with pinpoint imaging .no need to spend alot of money just do it right......enjoy bro...
@John Bravo ok bro just tried to help .....
Thank you so much. As someone who works in healthcare (science-based world), I am soooooo much enjoying these videos. The beauty of these videos is that it will help us consumers spend our hard-earned money where it actually MATTERS rather than on placebo products.
One of the best channels I found this past two years... keep it up Amir
I was going to buy a set of Danny's cables just to send them to Amir. I really like Danny and watch all of his video's as I am. Speaker builder and have learned a lot from him. BUT when I seen his speaker cable video I had to pull back. I've read many studies in the past debunking Dannys cable nonsense and couldn't believe he was peddling this nonsense. And now again a real scientist is debunking it AGAIN.
Another Iowan here - Danny may have knowledge designing speakers, but he's too steeped in snake oil commerce now to be taken seriously. I would love to see an RF engineer's assessment of those Tube Connectors he's peddling. He once said his system was so good that you can hear the difference between a new cable vs. one that is burned in.
@@tsOnMedia its probably the other way around the system is so horrible has almost no sinad and he can "hear" the different "noise" in different cables because the signal is so bad
Hi ! problem is that a speaker cable is not supposed to be used as antenna for a receiver ... any wire can be an antenna ... Maybe his cable are shielded or twisted to act as a worst antenna A speaker is a passive component ... does not amplify anything
@@gino3286 He also relays on measurements to make his speakers good but not cables....
@@iowaudioreviews Hi thanks a lot i see I have a huge respect of him as a speaker designer I am sure his projects must sound amazing Speaking of cable i am not that hot with speaker cables ... but ICs ... i do not know I am puzzled For instance i like how solid core ICs sound with digital. Maybe they are filtering out something bad ? i do not know. I had a Rotel cd player that i did not like completely Then i put on a pair of Cardas Neutral Reference RCA interconnects and bam ... the sound was immediately better ... more musical ample relaxed ... more analog like
I really do not know what happened. Only problem price. They are expensive and i returned them to the owner ... a friend. But what a sound. Very very nice indeed. Kind regards, gino
Finally a channel with proper explanations and demonstrations, excellent content Amir!
finally some smart and objective reviewer on RUclips! literally!!
Thank you so much for doing this video. Please keep them coming. For the longest time, I've been so frustrated with the reviewers out there not using any type of measurements in their review. Even more frustrated with people doling out setup advice for other people in their rooms without seeing any measurements whatsoever. Everyone ready to rush out and buy the next piece of equipment to fix the problem they hear with their hears but haven't tested with a simple Umik and Rew. I'm fairly new to this but I absolutely love to measure and test and then test last with my ears. I love Danny and his videos but these last few ones have really put me off. I actually just called GRresearch about shipments of some crossovers I ordered that hadn't shipped yet. I was surprised to hear Danny himself answer on the other end. seems like a great guy who knows his speaker design and crossover design stuff. but this cable stuff....yikes. what's your take on the tube connectors? that seems like a hot topic. Please keep these coming!
I hear you. He has a great business on the crossover side. I don't know what got into him to dabble in speaker wires and in this manner no less. You can't be part-time vegetarian! You either believe in measurements and objectivity or you don't. You can't change positions depending on day of the week....
Part time vegetarian 😃😃😃
Mr Amir thanks for an amazing content!
My guess is that his crossover business has been flagging and to bring in more revenue, he's resorted to one of the easiest money making schemes in the audio world, speaker cables and power cables. Not expensive to make (China sourced) and easy to convince the gullible that they are oh so very important.
@@gregasajn698 Thank you so much. :)
Speaker wire, zip code from HW store, 14 or 12 guage depending on run length. 10 cents per foot. If that's not good enough go to an import or new age store and buy some mystic crystals to set on top of your equipment, at least it's pretty (useless as well)
Thank you for this data. Impressive!
Awesome, not an engineer but Danny's claim didn't even pass the "smell test" and I have great respect for his knowledge regarding speaker design. This kind of video is so helpful! Thanks for taking the time to do them. Blind listening tests, as you suggest, are the only real test of claims about audio quality.
Very well presented and to the point. Danny is still going label you a “flatearther”. In reality, for this case, Danny is the true “flatearther”.
Remember, his original premise was that by using RF as a testing tool, a better sounding cable could be determined. Better sound was the goal and the method he used was just not relevant to that premise. It’s like testing the box to see which pizza is better.
What would you do instead? Listen?
A) He didn't use an RF testing tool. He used an FM receiver that provides no qualitative data
B) At no point did he offer any plausible explanation that's backed up by data and/or engineering principles explaining how minuscule voltages on an speaker cable can make audible differences.
C) If better sound is the premise, measurements that validate a change in sound quality are required. None was offered.
D) As mentioned in this debunking video, the test setup was flawed, not representative of the system in question, speaker connected to amp, I.E. the real world load.
Another fantastic, excellent video rooted in Science. Awesome!
"We can't hear 100kHz, how the hell are we gonna hear 100MHz" - hahaha
what? you can't hear like superman?
I can't even hear 18kHz.
As I stated in the comments in Danny's video, I live about 500 feet away from 1210 WHPT's transmitter, which is probably putting out something like 10,000+ watts of RF. Its strong enough that an AM radio receives 1210 and _only_ 1210 no matter where the dial is. Regular speaker cables work absolutely fine. All the issues are always with keeping the damn AM out of the input side so it wont be demodulated and amplified, especially when building something like a microphone preamp with 60 dB of gain.
Have you tried to build a decorative box of wood like the 70's receivers but line the inside with aluminum foil.
This is the best explanation of this I've ever heard. Thank you so much!
I think I know where this comes from. If you go back to the 70s, when amp makers were making insane amps with an "audio" bandwidth of 500kHz or more, there used to be some RF problems with speaker cables. They would pick up signals from medium wave stations, and inject them into the feedback loop of the power amp. The amp might have had a good response at medium wave frequencies, but wasn't all that linear at such frequencies. So, it demodulated the AM radio signal, amplified it, and played the audio into the speakers. If you started hearing strange voices coming from your speakers when nothing was being played, you shuffled the cables around until it stopped. Eventually, they started cleaning up these idiotic amp designs, and the problem went away.
Thanks Amir. Very educational.
Another great video. As a kid and a young budding audiophile, I would get frustrated because I would get hum and RF radio signals coming through my phono section of my receiver. I also lived next to a large Antenna tower. Fast forward to today, I discovered a hum on my high-end phono input. Sometime before I had switched to a "audiophile" phono cable. I switched back to my "quad shielded" phono cable and the hum disappears. Lesson learned - shielded cables do matter with low level signals.
Amir, I just saw Danny's cable video yesterday and just sent this comment to him a few minutes ago:
Danny, you claim that there is a noticeable difference in speaker cables and that the difference is caused by EMI pickup that can be filtered out by the speaker cable, right? So putting a filter on the amplifier end of a speaker cable should make a noticeable difference, right? So a possible test for this would be to use a power line EMI filter available at any electronics supply company and even walmart.com and see if you can hear a difference. I happen to have 4 Delta Electronics 10DRCS5 EMI filters that can attenuate EMI at >60dB at 1MHz but I do not have a setup to test this currently but would be happy to send you a couple of them to try yourself. These types of filters cost around $20 each but I got them on clearance for around $4 each. Looking at all the speaker cables from the links you provided yielded a difference in the cost of a pair of 8-foot speaker cables from $220 for cables with EMI filters to $107K. Before spending even $220, I would spend a few bucks on a power line EMI filter, put it on one channel of your system, and see if you can hear a difference between the channels. If you have enough EMI field strength to hear an improvement with the filter, then spend a few more bucks to put another filter on your other channel. Problem solved.
I happened to hear Danny's video yesterday when driving into Pittsburgh and almost drove off the road from emotion. Being an audiophile myself but with a 50-year career in audio and RF electronics, I fully agree with your assessment. Having worked at CBS's Technology Center doing blind testing among other things and also having FCC licenses, designing and building antennas, and having operated and maintained RADARs for the military, I find it ludicrous that there are so many people with no knowledge but with lots of disposable income that support a whole industry of audiophile snake oil.
Thanks for jumping on this with some sanity and perspective.
Thanks for the offer Stewart. I have actually tested a number of power filters and will post a video on that soon. As you, Danny's last video got me as it really went outside of the norms for the cable industry to claim they are all right because they all agree with each other!
@@AudioScienceReview Amir, are you planning to test them on speaker cables as well as power cables? That would be a very interesting video indeed.
@Mr Do you are missing my point. People are spending $$$$ to achieve the same thing as $ and are supporting an entire snake oil industry based on unscientific comparisons and unsubstantiated marketing claims. But to answer your question, does the long-term placebo effect illusion have value? I would offer that it certainly does for the snake oil industry, but the value for a consumer of the snake oil industry can only be judged by the consumer's enjoyment and their wallets.
@Mr Do the placebo effect means there is no difference. So even though exotic cables may have value for some, it is really audiophile jewelry rather than any improvement in sound.
@Mr Do yes what he is saying is there is no actual difference. It's 100% beer goggles.
You need to connect the speaker cable to both a speaker and an amplifier. Then connect the speaker end to your scope with coax. I believe the low impedance of the speaker will effectively short RF.
Yes,that would be the correct way to do it. There is so many funny videos on RUclips
I am a fan of Danny’s speakers I have 5 of them including double subwoofers, plus a conversion kit for the Magnepan 3.7i, but I also really appreciate your doing this video.
I would like to see a video in which you, Gene DellaSalla of Audioholics, and Danny discuss this and related topics. Perhaps you all actually agree on some aspects of this topic. As with political arguments, advocates on different sides often talk past each other such that the listeners really don’t learn anything. Thank you.
I would like to hear this discussion happen as well. Maybe Amirm, Danny and Gene can discuss this on clubhouse app. That would definitely bring (and protect from bs and marketing) some new blood!
@@monsieurVi -- Danny has disqualified himself from participation on several counts. First of all, he has already posted a "proof" video that is either indefensibly ignorant or a deliberate attempt to deceive. Secondly, he now has a horse in the "audiophile speaker cable" race, so he has a sales/marketing interest in the opinions he presents as "science." That said, I agree with Amir that he has demonstrated some admirable competence in his specialty of speaker system design -- he knows passive crossover circuitry very well and a good deal about driver and enclosure design. That said, once he's outside his technical wheelhouse, he comes off like a garden variety audiophool -- whether he actually believes what he preaches or is engaged in marketing disguised as education is the only unknown.
Danny's ego will not allow this unfortunately. He's a persuasive salesman.
@@kirkcunningham6146 -- Well, at least his snake oil is a lot cheaper than Audioquest's snake oil -- so there is that....
I follow you big time on your original site. Very objective and no BS. Great to see you on RUclips. Keep it coming.
Thanks. Much appreciated. :)
Amir thanks for your video series. Thanks a lot! You already know that how much industry people and the reviewer's of glossy audio magazines or websites loathe your opinions from your ASR activities. They claim you are a cult leader who has crazy followers :)) Now this video series .... showing the tests in real time and explaining in plain language so everyone can understand! Just be careful man ..... they will come after you. And here is the bothersome thing ..... you can not change some (a vast majority) people's opinion regardless of what you do as they will always steer towards sound attributes like air, resolution, holography, palpability etc. that we can not measure as of now ....... no matter how many times you and others (I noticed Gene @Audioholics commented here too) show noise signal ratio, noise floor, frequency etc. from your scientific measurements. There is a real simple reason behind it. You and Gene and many others know about it. There is a lot, I mean a lot of money to be made from the cables and other tweak components. Anyway ...... I thoroughly enjoy reading ASR and enjoying the video series even more :))))) Thanks again!
Amazing work Amir. I used to pick up AM stations through the wah pedal on electric guitar gig systems. I could clearly hear them but I am pretty sure it didn't have anything to do with the speaker cables and indeed with the electronics of the wah.
KEEP IT UP!!! We can’t stop spreading TRUTH.
At one point, I was watching a guy, who was watching a guy, who was watching himself. #hifiinception
Yeh, even I didn't know who to look at. Myself, Danny, or myself looking at Danny. Good thing Danny wasn't looking at me! I wouldn't like how that would look!!! :D
More debunk videos are always welcome! 👍
Thank you Amir, we sincerely appreciate your sharing your expertise on this platform. Been a fan of ASR for a while, so great to see you now on video.
Glad you enjoy it!
Being old, back in the 70's and before, when saving a few pence mattered, sometimes the negative feedback path didn't include a low pass filter to roll off the higher frequency and ensure HF stability, the odd 1uH inductace on the output stage. In these cases the speaker wire could act as a dipole and inject RF into the negative feed back, becoming demodulated at the base emitter juntion of the input pair. It's decades out of date now, but useful if you want to sell to the unknowing.
Really enjoying the videos, keep them coming. Would love to see you do videos on linear power supplies, power conditioners and their affects.
Great video once more Amir. This video serves as an excellent example of a properly designed scientific experiment with a rigorous analysis of the results and properly drawn conclusions versus a poorly designed one with dubious analysis and a conclusion that misses the mark. Unfortunately the audiophile press and community is littered with the latter. This is reason why ASR has become the most important and influential audio resource on the Internet.
This is great. Watching the measurement wolf tearing apart all the audiphile sheep. As a long time cable phobic, I run 8 buck amazon basics optical cables, 20 buck budget van damme studio speaker cable, 20 buck budget van damme star quad balanced with neutrik xlrs and to top it all off the standard plastic power cables in all my gear run off a cheap plastic 6 way extension lead. Sounds bloody fantastic but it's the DAC/AMP/SPEAKERS doing all the work not the cables! :)
That's what a lot of pro studios use too, van damme or mogami, neutrik connectors...industry standard so to say, for good reasons 😊
this videos are awesome very objective and informative
Great video. I have a sony amp that used to faintly demodulate what I'm pretty sure was broadcast FM radio. It only did it when the tone circuit was engaged. I never figured out why but in my case replacing the tone circuit opamp with a higher spec audio opamp (and decoupling the power rails properly) stopped the problem completely. This problem is both rare. And obvious when it happens. It never "degraded the sound" but it was audible and annoying when the music stopped. I would never waste money replacing speaker cables because when this happens its always a problem with a specific amplifier and fixing/replacing the amplifier is always the solution.
So much common sense in just a seventeen minute video... You are truly amazing Amir. The high end audio marketing machine absolutely needs someone who knows what they are talking about to hopefully keep the snake oil sales people in check. I hope that you realize what a tremendous help your efforts will make, if only the people buying into the audiophoolery snake oil products will maintain an open mind. Everything that you stated in this video is one hundred percent accurate (I am an electronic design engineer by trade) and I am impressed by your ability to remain as civil as you stay towards the snake oil pushing industry. Well done Amir. I applaud you sir. Fred
With two-channel hi-fi, I can totally understand RFI would barely be noticeable. However, when one is running a 9 Channel Atmos setup, the RFI / EMI (background signal noise) becomes a little more apparent.
Evan, after auditioning three separate AVR's, the same ambient sound of the room was still present! It was only after I purchased shielded cables that the noise floor within my small 13 × 11.5ft living room finally came down to satisfactory levels. In my experience, unshielded cables do indeed act antennas for attracting RF, and the longer the cable, the better the antenna. It probably explains why when I used to disconnect my Heights and surrounds within 10 minutes, the faint background signal noise within my small room used to disappear.
Never mind the cost. Do you really think I would go through all this work not once, not twice, but on the third time to get it right...
If interested, here's a 3-minute video of what I went through. Please bear in mind that I'm no Steven Spielberg 😂
ruclips.net/video/wwU0d3NfRQw/видео.htmlsi=8RcX4g8b07jjmYEr
Harvesting enough RF energy to make a speaker produce an audible tone would probably get you nominated for a nobel prize.
Loving these vids!
Bad, bad guy. the Patrick Reed of audio
Most amplifiers have an air cored inductor on the output of the amplifier which is intended to protect the amplifier against capacitive loads that may cause amplifier instability. They also block high frequencies from passing. All well designed amplifiers will also have a zobal network to remove or attenuate high frequencies on the output of the amplifier, these are usually set to 100KHz (-3dB). So, very little can enter the amplifier's feedback path to affect it. However, depending on the amplifier (bandwidth greater than 300KHz), it may affect the components by causing heating of amplification components affecting their properties. Conclusion, better to reduce any RF EMI.
I know this video is a year old. I just want to thank you for saving me 300.00. I had a pair of cables in my cart, but my intuition led me here before making the purchase.
Thanks. My brain says you have confirmed my 'findings'. Damn brain likes having things confirmed!
I also have a tech diploma from the USAF and while in service, dealt with micro/picovolts regularly for reception. This was in conjunction with adjacent beaming of kilowatts. Never had a problem with cross hatching interference of signals.
This one video just saved me thousands of dollars. Thank you.
I saw the original video, and objected to his testing and assumptions as well. Thank you for such a good video on this topic.
The best audio related RUclips channel at this moment!
Hey you might not like doing " this kind of video" but what amazing value your information has. Thank you
LOL, great subject. Part of my job is dealing with RFI, EMI, in sensitive industrial equipment, so understanding the issues is part of my day to day life.
Here are a few facts..
1 RF in a speaker cable is of no consequences unless it is rectified by a non linear component. That is a mouthfull, but if there is RF in a cable, it is not a problem unless it is rectified by a corroded connection, or is not filtered in a cheap amplifier and becomes rectified by transistors or diodes in the amp. Better equipment has better filters.
If the RF is too low to be rectified, it won't. If you live next door to a ham radio operator, TV tower, or place your cell phone on your speaker cables, you don't need an expensive fix.
Proven time and time again, shorter speaker cable is better. When possible, keep the speaker cables shorter than 2 feet. Yes, I am suggesting powered speakers and shielded balanced XLR for the signal, if you are in an RF rich environment. Braided speaker wire is similar to unshielded twisted pair network cable, but at a much lower impedance, due to the capacitance.. Did anyone mention the evil of high capacitance on the output of an amplifier? Many amplifiers are unstable into a highly capacitance or inductive reactive load. Again, shorter is better. Next time you go to a concert, see if you can get a view of the actual equipment. Most newer gear is using a digital stage box, so analog mic cables are short. It is digital to the sound desk, and digital back to the stage box. Then there is a short run from the stage box to the powered on stage monitors. The main speakers are either powered or connected to the amp rack at the stage, not at the sound booth. The pros know the reason for short speaker cables. My longest PA speaker cable is 25 feet. I do not own longer speaker cables for event sound. Pros can't use equipment that picks up cell towers, broadcast, 2 way radio, ham radio. They quickly eliminate any equipment that gives problems in the presence of RFI, and EMI.
When you connected the cable to the Yamaha, you simply terminated the cable, which draws some of the RF energy, so yes it is attenuated. However, what is important is the signal is still present in unbalanced cable between the amplifier and your test equipment. Nice choice of the Tektronix. I have one too. Much of the high frequency RFI can easily be filtered out going into an amplifier with the use of ferrite beads on both ends of your unbalanced audio cable. They are not expensive and work well.
DBmV and DBmW is the same scale for relative measurements, but the difference is one is power into a specified load resistance. For the RF guys, this is into a 50 ohm load. This value is incorrect at other load resistances such as the input of the receiver of 20K ohms, or a speaker of 8 ohms, so audio is generally measured as a voltage as the resistance in audio is not constantly 50 ohms, 8 ohms, 200 ohms, or 600 ohms, so for audio, it is measured as a voltage. Check the settings on your spectrum analyzer. Many can switch to display DBmV. Some can even turn off the 50 ohm load, but most have this load fixed.
How "Low" your RF environment completely depends on your proximity to transmitting equipment. A setup in a valley in the desert is a different environment than the urban jungle. One church I helped set up the sound has no over the air TV due to the geography, so no RF issues. However the church on the hill nearby, is less than a mile from the TV and radio towers on the crest of the hill, and their RFI fix was much more extensive requiring replacing equipment with poor common mode noise rejection, shielded cable for everything, and a bussbar for bonding all equipment. Some environments are so strong in RF, the rectification happens when the equipment is turned off. Turn the amp off and hear the local AM radio station. When that happens, you need something better than braided speaker cable. In this case it was conduit, ferrite beads, and RFI filters.
So confused. Amir showed that rf wont make a difference with speaker cables but your post seems to indicate its a real issue and you go to all kind of lengths to deal with rf
@@shroud1390 The issue is not with the speaker cables directly, but the length of the cables, and the quality of the amplifier, and the strength of the RF in the area. In general a strong RF field and poorly built amp are both required to rectify the strong RF in the area to introduce noise into the system. Most quality amplifiers have RF suppression on the speaker outputs. For most people, this is a non issue. With the two issues present, long speaker cables amplify the problem.
Rf interference is potentially a problem at microphone level in a recording or live amplification scenario because it will be amplified significantly. This is why balanced xlr cables exist. At speaker level, I really don't see it.
Love it, keep the vids coming 👌
Another better explanation with RF signals good job Amir 👍👍
GR just released another video and his argument is that there is a whole industry dedicated to this problem so therefore it is real. Somewhere there is a disconnect and where he looses credibility with me. He gave a very specific example of a commercial installation but truly doesn't understand the whole problem. And yes, in that case, filtering may have addressed the problem but that also doesn't mean there might not be a design issue or some unforeseen circumstance with the given application or equipment. Maybe placing a few ferrites in strategic places would have prevented coupled noise from coupling back into the equipment. And that would certainly not be a reason for everyone to 'filter' their audio cables.
I agree with your analysis and given the ratio of RF to audio signal, I can't possible see why these guys think its a problem. The problem is they take a basic concept and misapply it. I'm still scratching my head over this MIT Cable thing. On their web site, The Q&A section that GR also makes mention of, has questions and then their answers don't really answer their own questions. I guess the gullible just gloss over it. I figure all the braiding of the cables just increases the length of the copper used.
I've seen fairly high levels of RF ride on low level audio signals before and if you weren't looking for it you'd likely never know it. And it ain't happening on people's home audio equipment.
Today he even released one more video on the same subject proving who knows what.
@@IliyaOsnovikov I saw he was demonstrating coupling of an air core transformer and drawing a false conclusion. He would say I'm a flat earther just to be dismissive. Most of the coupling he is implying would end up being common mode in a twin lead speaker cable. He's making something out of nothing. Just use fat twin lead, OFC if you want, and you'll be good to go,
That RF signal in speaker will feed back to the output of amplifier, then global feedback in amplifier should take care of it. This means your music also added to that RF at negative feedback , so Danny mean that that RF should not come from first place in the output of amplifier
I watched Danny's video when it first appeared, and I was very surprised at his blindness to the non-science of his test. I commented that at the time. Danny's test was not merely ignorant, it was absurd. I looked at the date of publication, expecting it to say April 1. I unsubscribed to his channel quickly. He's enough to make a real engineer blush. But we must accept that there are more than enough tinkerers plying their preaching in this field.
Do speaker cables actually have resistance, inductance, and capacitance? Sure. Is it relevant in any reasonable listening situation? I suppose, if it is a flagrant violation of conductance requirements for cables connecting amps with speakers. But when we examine, as facts, the actual effects caused at these low impedances, they will be primarily due to resistance. Yes, if you are connecting a 50 wpc signal output to a hungry speaker of varying low impedance, 22 gauge wire will be easily improved upon. And 16 gauge wire. But, likely not 10 or 12 gauge wire of any reasonable quality.
I appreciate your approach to the subject of audio, and I hope your messages succeed. There are witch doctors out there, and they simply fog and distort what is important about audio. And audiophiles seeking every sort of perfection, are easy believers as an audience.
You show me a carnival, with people with a few dollars in their wallet, and I'll show you fortune tellers and games of chance. And flat Earthers.
Carry on; I appreciate your efforts.
This video is awesome! Sooo... Are we flatearthers now? Danny is a good guy and has some great content, but he really fell down the rabbit hole with this one.
Seems so. Anyone who doesn't believe in a non-scientific subjective opinion is a flat-earther. We know because someone who does all of his speaker/crossover designs based on science and measurements tells us we are.
@@jonblakeman6636 Upton Sinclair said it best... (I paraphrase): "It's impossible to convince a man of something when his livelihood depends on his not being convinced."
Beginner audiophile here , I like to think there is some validation to Danny’s arguments of cables making a difference. I am a mechanic. I use to wrench for certified GM dealerships for 17yrs , my specialty area was brakes suspension and Antilock braking systems. One particular case I had was of a vehicle erratically displaying an unwanted ABS light and activation of the brake pressure modulation valve . The code that was retrieved was for Right front wheel speed sensor erratic code . After further inspection I found that this vehicle was in a accident and the wire harness for that sped sensor was worked on but a hack job was done , straight wires were spliced in and harness was hitting front the front drive spinning axle . ABS speed sensors require a proper braided configuration of wires and proper shielding to cancel out any RF signals , also the wires were properly attached to its retainer so no interference occurs the the hertz signal to the computer. This was fixed and all lights went away and now working properly,l. Now if cables makes a difference in the automotive area why shouldn’t it make a difference in audio ?
I so enjoy these videos. I find them very interesting and educational. Thank you
Thanks for the kind feedback.
Oh my, two birds with one stone. The more attention you pay to the sound, the more detail you extract; and as someone who loses their sight can acquire greater acuity in their hearing. People can also gain that same degree of aural acuity while retaining their sight, hence making changes while gaining acuity seems to reinforce the changes made in the system, resulting in a perceived "upgrade" to the system.
There is no greater poof of this, observationally, then people with approximately $10k and up changing their "perfect system" because they decide something else sounds better; when in actuality it just sounds different.
The whole point of snake oil mumbo jumbo is that the rubes don't understand you, but it sounds scary.
Didn’t know about this channel until today, Thanks for your time Amir!
My pleasure. Thanks for waching.
Well done. The only time I've ever seen speaker wires picking up enough RF to cause a problem was when there was a CB'er or Ham operator within a few hundred feet of the system. The wires did in fact pick up the signal and then the amp's output transistors acted as detectors, so you could hear the audio in the speakers. But all solid-state amps made after the late 1960's have an output stabilization circuit between the transistors and the speaker terminal, consisting of (usually) two resistors, a capacitor, and an inductor. This circuit not only stabilizes the amp, but it prevents RF entering the amp through the speaker leads.
In the early 1960's, Edgar Vilchur, founder of Acoustic Research and inventor of the Acoustic Suspension woofer system, did some very famous live versus recorded tests. Knowing that these tests might well make or break his company, he said in an interview later on that he "spared no expense. I bought the best lamp cord the hardware store had."
Your video are really educational in many perspective, I really like the way you are fully demonstrate the right way but also showing how the people doing it wrong and how to debunker the thing around. Your channel is a very precious and valuable platform for audio industry and community.
I simly luv this channel and what your doing! 🥰
Cheers, and thanks for your time, work and effort,, 🍻😋👍
Good review. Eye opener.
Thank you!
Many years ago I was building an integrated amplifier designed by Dr Bailey (consultant to UK company Radford Audio). I'd completed the power amp section, connected a speaker and for some reason I put by fingers across the input (no preamp yet) . To my surprise I heard a very garbled radio broadcast ! Just subscribed.
Your are a real application expert. Others just hypertrophy audio advisor
I have heard radio stations on several stereo units over many decades ...even when the stereo did NOT have an FM or AM tuner attached.
I have also demonstrated to friends that the radio signal can be changed by moving interconnect and speaker wires around.
I've read is possible that cables that are complex in design could function like a capacitor and be functionality part of the cross over network in the speaker. Therefore a difference could be heard between cables, but the result is less accurate than using a less expensive cable irrespective of their rf filtering capabilities. Thoughts?
Amir thank you VERY MUCH for your scientific approach to this topic!! Much appreciated in that you have shown, with measuring equipment, that despite the validity of RF presence in a system, it is negligible in terms of human hearing.
This is amazing, keep up the great work.
It is interestingly, for four months I lived with my system having a tick tick noise on it every two seconds, which started only when I moved into the new house. I was a RF engineer in the ECCCM environment for 42 years and looked for this problem because I was sure that it was RF interference getting into the audio system from some external source.
After a long search, and borrowing an HP Spectrum analyser from work, found the culprit, it was caused by communication between two house alarm components in the 2.5 GHz Wi-Fi band every two seconds. When I turned them off the problem went away immediately. Any RF envalope can be detected and will act as an AM signal provided it is of sufficient level, else why care about EMI/RFI that is only present inones dreams.
I have always love your videos with scientific explanation of the truth. Great job and hope to see me video from you.
Thank you for showing these results. I have a hard time with the types who claim they can hear things that people cannot measure.
Thanks for the video, clearly done, demonstrating evidence of how cables work in a system. Some of the thinking and conclusions made by the other person are truly confounding. Again, thanks for refuting his position, clearly and calmly with evidence and a succinct explanation.
My pleasure. Appreciate the feedback and kind words very much.
This is a small detail, but you said "we dream about nonsense stuff at night" as a comparison to people hearing phantom audio differences. You probably didn't mean it, but our dreams are most definitely not nonsense. They're absolutely fascinating, and we don't understand their basis nor their significance in the modern world. Point is, our brains are incredibly good at picking up symbolism and deeper meaning, but not so good with the precise scientific details, which brings us back to hearing differences when there are none.
As always, though, very good video on a topic that needs as much unbiased, intelligent coverage as possible. Thanks for what you do.
Thanks Amir. Very happy to see my favorite ASR content is finally on youtube! I am tired of too much "AudioPhoolary" BS on youtube even with reviewers I thought somewhat legitimate to start with. $250 Power cable somehow magically change the sound for better, give lot more amps when 100 foot ROMEX in the wall is not changing. Danny claims somehow it cleans the EMI/RF, then suddenly audio changes for better(That's his response to my question). Even cheap 20-30 buck Surge protectors have EMI/RF filters, not so sure what these $1000 power cables do. Appreciate if you can put some reviews for those here on youtube! Very happy to see some rationale, quality measurement and explanation being available in this format.!
Thanks Chinna. I procrastinated forever in doing videos but for the reasons you mentioned, I thought I have to start. I am glad you all are finding value in them.
It is so refreshing to see and hear you going over your tests. It makes every other Talking head reviewer just difficult to listen/watch. Either the Zero F, Guttenberg, Thomas, Hans B (Sits in front of testing gear he never uses) and the grandaddy The PS Audio Guy (I am a seller not an Engeneer) all that say in their review words like musical, whimsical, throbbing, Specific, balanced, approachable and a bunch of other BS terms that don't mean anything. They basically don't have the desire to actually measure, technical knowhow to do objective tests on the gear they review. They are simply talking heads looking for views and patron money. I am so happy to find your channel, I will be watching.
Amir. Thanks so much for lifting the ignorance vail. Hope some day you do the "Furutech NCF Clear Line Power Supply Optimizer "
Apart from the speaker loading the antenna and quenching the RF, the output of the amplifier has an RL filter that quenches the RF at the other end of the antenna too.
Danny's crossover work is interesting, but I was horrified by his using speaker cables as an FM antenna video. It demonstrated that in that particular case he doesn't know what on earth he is talking about.
These videos are great. You are helping people save money with their purchases, without sacrificing sound quality. 🤘
Thank you, Amir, I run my 100watt HF Ham Radio station weekly within 20 feet of our TV and audio system. My findings corroborate with yours. I'm okay if the speaker cables only advertise to suppress RF, but would appreciate measurements as you have outlined. Your Grounding video is a great companion.
Love your channel Amir 👍 Like Gene says, "it's audio jewelry"
Beside audio, my other hobby is amateur radio. YEs, we can use speaker cable as antenna and feedline. The T shape antenna is called.. dipole antenna and the length of the 'legs' affects the resonance RF,
RF power is very weak but it may be picked up from input of pre/amplifier, but not by speaker. Example:
connect very long speaker cable to a speaker system without connecting to aything at the other end.. Can we hear anything? Then put it close the very 'noise' source such as a cheap charger.. hear anything Or trnsmit a RF using walkie talke near the cable..?
Thank you.
Amir, excellent video, and explanation of actual circuit functions. It's so good to know actual factual operating conditions. Louis
Amir: "You have to test the system as is used"
also Amir: goes ahead and measures power cords dangling in free air and listens to mono
copyright strike delivery in 1 business day. thank you. -danny richie probably
It's called fair use.
@@mattsch21 you know some people arent just going to acknowledge that and try their luck by taking the video down, in case there's the off chance the reviewer working on the dmca takedown wont notice the commentary/criticism made throughout the video. its yt man, these things always happen. thank god there's a counter notification system in place to combat that issue.
Very well demonstrated, Amir. Both sides of this argument have been made within the ‘audiophile’ community, and it is very refreshing to see someone use scientific equipment and a logical data-driven approach to make their case.
Thanks Amir (belated) for a great video. Your point about a grain of truth being misinterpreted is particularly important. Thirty years ago, I got my first real job in NYC, after grad school. And I bought a new stereo system. At the urging of the salesman, it was LP oriented (I had about 600 LPs already from before grad school). The amp was a nice Creek integrated but when I took it home I could hear intermittent changes in the background noise that once heard/noticed were annoying. The dealer swapped out the amp and I bought "better" cables, but still the distracting noise changes. I lived with it until I moved to another apartment. Now the intermittent noise was in Spanish....the chatter between taxi drives and the cab company whose antenna mast was less than a block away and visible from my living room window. I couldn't live with that, but in the meantime (a) I noticed that it didn't happen with FM music and (b) after buying a CD player, it didn't happen at all. It was the phono-preamp picking up the RF signals passing them through to the amplifier and speakers. I eventually replaced the integrated with separates but I still couldn't play LPs. The antenna mast is still there, but I think the cabbies are now using cell phones. I haven't yet tested the phono-preamp since I find I now prefer CDs/digital files to LPs, anyway.
Knock knock knock(on the table) great information and explanation. I enjoyed your scientific explanations and making it easy for the layman to understand. Thank you for your service to the public.
More to worry about magnets near speaker cables than RF. F=qvxB. The flowing electrons would cause a magnetic field of their own as well, so any nearby magnetic fields would change that. Likely imperceivable and minimally detectable influence, but there nonetheless.
specific lengths of wire at specific gaps will capture specific frequencies with a tuner. This is how radio works. If you go fishing for RF you'll find RF. You can do simple math to tune a fixed frequency with a modulator that can "decode" the intelligence. This is why the funniest configuration of speaker wire is one of the most expensive with the Nordost in parallel; for those concerned about the RF boogieman, unshielded speaker wire in parallel is the worst (even twisted pair).
Amir. I would love it if you tested crossover components quality. The other, potential, snake oil filled vile.
This is on my todo list. I have the bits, but have not done the testing yet.
Amir, thanks for clearing the air on this topic. I know many people who claim that speaker cables make a "clearly audible" difference. I'm skeptical. Especially when someone is trying to sell a cable costing more than a good amp or speaker.
I guess there might be a difference between speaker cables. However it's usually quite small.