When I worked in a hi-fi shop over 20 years ago, all the salesmen were interested in the differences the cables made. When I was asked to do a cable test, I would often do nothing.... that is, lie about making the switch. EVERY TIME I did this, an improvement was still "heard." And I fell for it too on multiple occasions. It's just human nature - nothing to be embarrassed by.
Here's the thing -- you might not've been totally lying, and this is something I'm going to make a video about. More often than not, if you play something once, then again, with no changes, people will perceive a difference. Why? Familiarity as far as I can tell. They are simply getting accustomed to it. So they actually ARE hearing a change.
@@dougschneider8243 I agree. The thing with music is there’s so much going on, you’re never focusing on the exact same part/instruments twice. And you can’t pause to scrutinize like with video .
Being a retired electrical engineer for more years than I can now believe I have really struggled when these topics surface. For what ever reason it always seems to come down to “well your system is not revealing enough”, just so sick and tired of hearing that as an excuse for everything audiophile. Is it just a way for them to justify the expense they made buying into such. How many recording studios and engineers have invested in cables and switches as the audiophiles seem to. How do we take recordings from the fifties and sixties and then apply todays somewhat bogus technology and get to “oh hale, the sound is just so marvelously improved. Yes, many are remastered to enhance the experience but do you suppose there is anything in the ordinal tape recording to reveal? I find it easier just to shut up and find another more meaningful conversation to join. But you know it will never end!
The whole "system is not revealing enough" comment is almost always a farce. I can easily shut it down the moment I list off the equipment I have within a few feet of me -- state-of-the-art electronics, speakers, etc. Plus, we always have something coming and going -- and I travel the world to some of the best hi-fi companies. Furthermore, we have a great electronics lab and we measure most of the speakers in the NRC's anechoic chamber. But even apart from that, put on a good set of headphones and play a music file through any decent headphone amp. You're going to hear EVERYTHING that's possible to hear. It's nonsense and, yeah, I'm sick of tired of hearing that excuse.
Excellent Video Doug. I work in IT and am a WiFi/Wireless Engineer. Worked both sides of the Border. I use a $30USD Netgear 8 Port Switch which is tapped off of my Cable Modem (it even has two RJ45's). I built a single power supply for all my 12VDC devices with a Toroidal/Industrial FW Rectifier, and some good power supply filtering. Why ? Cause I can..LOL ! Did it make a difference....Oh HELL NO ! But it cleaned up a rats nest of wires and wall warts. Hell, I don't even use AC Line Conditioners. But I run two dedicated 20A circuits (10AWG stranded Armoured Cable for all my Audio crap and 12AWG solid Romex for all my computer crap and peripherals). The Dedicated AC Lines made a huge difference. But I laugh at people who believe in Ethernet Regenerators, converting Electrical to Optical via SFP modules. In the IT world these are a must. But in the Consumer side it's asinine. I do use non Audiophile shielded RJ-45 cables. No clues if it makes a difference but I feel better. It's all Placebo effect. All our DAC's/Disc Transports/FEC circuits/Clocks do all the heavy lifting because the designers know a thing or two about power supply and circuit board design.
Thanks for your detailed response. I'm really happy to read it. Whenever I make something a little bit technical, I always know I run the risk of someone smashing back. Your justification for building the power supplies is perfect -- because you "can." That's great. About dedicated lines -- these ARE a thing. In fact, in our lab, all amp measurements are done on a 20A dedicated circuit. The power-output measurements are greatly improved over a 15A shared circuit. This is actually the #1 upgrade, as opposed to, say, a power conditioner.
I guess nobody says a smpsu+cheap switch makes the Stones sound like the Beatles.. we are talking not about function but a relatively small difference. And btw the thing about smpsus is not their problematic DC output (although there are differences) but their hash into the power net if (if!!) picked up by a sensitive audio device. In an all SMPSU powered hifi system with D-class amps I would assume that hash is no issue..
I agree. Last year I wanted to find out for myself what difference switches made to an already well resolved set up. So I bought around 10 different switches from the usual suspects (including couple of audiophile switches) + 6 hi-end LPS from well known manufacturers. Anyway, after trying all different combinations of switches and power supplies for over 8 months…I have gone back to my original set up without a switch…and USB connection!!! So the larger question is do switches make a difference…YES they do. Every switch/LPS combo I tried changed the presentation to varying degrees…but it was just different…and not better, in my set up.
9:46 : right! I’m a so called « audiophile » and did this experience and was sure there was an improvement with just a little trick in the chain. I will remove my Ethernet switch and see if can still hear a difference. Interesting topic. Anyway, for sure good cables and good accessories make a difference but I’ve decided that in the future I will mainly invest on good speakers and good amps only.
Great video !! Can't believe people are buying this stuff without getting any decent lab results, let alone being able to participate in a (double) blind test ...
For the most part, I agree. I'd change my mind if someone can demonstration the effect(s), mind you. That said, right now I feel people are buying based on dubious reviewer stories and misinformation.
thank you very much for the video, enjoy hearing both perspectives. I am a tinkerer and really love this hobby because it allows me to be curious. I have experimented with switches and external reclocker attached to my switch (yes I am in deep haha). I can not say you are wrong and I believe your points have a lot of validity. It is very easy for me to switch all of that extra gear out and go straight to my lumin steamer/dac. Very easy to tell the difference. Would be interested to know if someone could measure what is causing this change? Would be thrilled to sell extra gear and only keep the part that is causing the marked improvement. Also I have within the last year added 4 dedicated 20 amp 10 guage electrical lines to my system for my Pass Labs amps and Rel subs.The result was minimal other than peace of mind. Is it possible that some of us have different issues in our systems. Some may have real dirty lines and a dedicated outlet may yield great improvement , others like mine, may not be terrible and yield negligible results. Likewise is it possible some may have real internet issues and there are devices (maybe a switch 😏) which could improve their systems greatly?
I think the point you bring up about "issues" is a good one. Why put in a power conditioner if there are no power issues? I don't believe I have any power issues in my house, but I do know I had them when I lived on the 22nd floor of an apartment building. Sometimes I'd have almost brownout conditions. That's why dedicated powerlines are a very good thing. But internet switches, I think a lot more work needs to be done with those.
My experience has been that : Using fiber blocks any noise coming from the switch that’s connected to Comcast’s modem . It’s a 150$ Cisco switch solution with 4 SFP ports . I did audition Inuos phenixNet switch with Clock in it . 3500 MSRP . I did not end up keeping it it did not make difference for me .
Tried a number of high end network devices including the Network Acoustics Muon Pro with their Ethernet cable along with the Synergistic Research UEF BOTH NORTH OF £2500 on my Gryphon MSB system -although the SR UEF had a tiny difference but seriously small the highly reviewed Muon Pro which the dealer said is very good and sells well did absolutely zero. However cables whether speaker, balanced make a huge difference if you have a very transparent top end system. Anybody who says they don’t is simply death or in most cases hasn’t tried them or their system is good enough to hear those differences as they are as clear as day. Although there are a number of top brands I’ve heard from Audioquest to Shunyata having heard a 3K mains did zero in my system. Plus a lot has to do the synergy as what sounds good in one system may sound rubbish in another. Room acoustics also can heavily influence the sound massively -wooden floors, soft furnishing etc.
I have tried an UpTone EtherREGEN and it made a very noticeable improve to the sound quality of my system. I bought it fully expecting to listen to it, find no difference and send it back. I still have it 2.5 years later. I have swapped it in and out many times. Every time I remove it the sound of my system is degraded. My system sounds harder, more irritating and less musical without the UpTone EtherREGEN. Sorry guys I hear a difference and many many other people do as well. So there is something very real going on here and someone just needs to figure out how to measure it.
@@dougschneider8243 I am using a Bryston BDA-3 DAC fed via USB by a SOtM Trifecta. The SOtM gear is being fed by the UpTone EtherREGEN. I sounds very nice. It is a huge improvement over feeding the BDA-3 DAC directly via USB from my windows laptop. Night and Day.
i really appreciate your taking the time to counter this BS narrative. it was making me slightly crazy to see nobody stand up for reality, make arguments from a proper understanding of how things work
Howdy. Technically the quality of the IP-DAC internal clock may cause jitter. But not the switch. And if someone is concerned about noise propagation in the Ethernet cables I may suggest using optical fiber interconnects, Regards.
I imagine I'd feel pretty attacked by this video if I spent $3000 on an audiophile grade switch that was just a rehoused switch that originally sold for $40 at a computer store.
Packets get sent and resent all the time. An audiophile switch is not going to make a single bit of difference about that. Furthermore, all this talk about "processors" is what fueled the FLAC vs. WAV debates. Processing happens in computers -- and sometimes processors work more or less. That's just part of the life of a computer. As for the ridiculous notion that this can affect the sound quality of a FLAC file has been pointed out by me and by others -- the most time-intensive tasks on a computer are I/O tasks, such as reading from a drive. With a FLAC file, there's a lot less to read. But the who processor thing is, nevertheless, a red herring.
@@dougschneider8243 I meant the DAC as a processor. If data with the wrong checksum is thrown out and data with the correct checksum is buffered in the stream there must be some effect.
@@kenwong9796Hi, I think this is rarely if ever an issue. Honestly, the internet wouldn't work the way it does if we had these errors getting through. You watched my video without a problem. Passing music data around is NOT a problem. And that's why we have buffers. Furthermore, jitter reclocking ONLY matters right at the point of conversion. Right there. I made a video about that here: ruclips.net/video/xwAspcxqYmQ/видео.htmlsi=vva-Y3lp-8U1ML3N
A bit late but... My FLAC files give less than 1GB for an album. That can be transferred on 1Gigabit network in less than 20secs, say. Resending packets is rare, but even so, not an issue. Overhead is nothing compared to all the other stuff going on. Do you watch streamed movies? How often is there a glitch? And video is more demanding than audio.
Compared with the number of packet resends that happen before streamed audio gets to your router, how important do you think that last step will be in the whole chain ? Especially since the distance is almost zero, so the chance of getting a access conflict or a transfer error is also close to zero. The very funny thing is, some of these high-end audiophile switches advertise that their switch uses especially slower chips hence transfer rates (i.e. 100mbit/s in stead of ≥ 1Gbps) , to avoid creating noise ... If it wasn't so sad, you'd be rolling on the floor ... A faster processor is capable of handling any resend/error with even more ease then a slower one. And regarding noise : putting your audio on a different power circuit might be useful (I think this is one of the few things that really make a difference, besides working balanced wherever possible), and you might consider optical connections, although - if digital noise is your concern - one shouldn't underestimate the potential for noise-induction of an sfp module (besides the digital circuit everyone contains LC lowpass filter ...)
Assuming you have a good quality switch, the biggest factor is the overall throughput of the LAN and the Backplane of the Switch. If you have more Backplane capacity than you Throughput needs, you have the Switch you need. If all your doing is streaming some audio and or Netflix even at 4K to a couple of TVs in your house, any decent Network Switch is going to be non factor in the path.
Just some additional info. ALL RJ45 ports on all network devices HAVE TO provide galvanic isolation. That is enforced by the Ethernet standard. All even the cheapest of switches have that. Usually it is implemented through a transformer. In expensive devices it might use an optical isolation. Even the transformer (magnetic) isolation will do away with most any noise being transferred from the network device to the receiver. RF noise can always be picked by the cable. So the one and ONLY thing one should take care of is use doubly shielded ethernet cables. They only cost a few cents more than the unshielded or singly shielded ones.
All cars have to provide safety for their passengers in case of an accident, which is enforced by the law. Reality is that in some cars you can get easily killed, while other hi-end cars protect your life much better.
@@andru2625 In case you haven't noticed we are not talking about cars. Not all metaphors are valid.. There are not many ways to provide galvanic isolation on ethernet ports. You do it either through transformers or through optical conversion. If a device does not provide optical conversion then no matter how audiophile it purports to be and how much money it asks from you, it is doing no more than your run-of-the-mill network switch.
Why not just use Wifi? No more electrical noise carrying and infecting the packets....what's the argument against? It all ends up in the same buffer anyway
I'm going to push back just a little bit. I've been using Wi-Fi off and on since about 2007 (when I got a Slim Devices Transporter). It can work exceedingly well. The only caveat is the implementation. If it's poorly implemented in the receiving circuit, it can generate the problems you'd expect, like noise. But if it's well implemented, it cuts the electrical connection between components and can work extremely well.
@@dougschneider8243 How does one know if the receiving unit has bad implementation? I notice a few high end streamers now are gutting the wifi altogether to let the consumer figure it out - is there a quality extender you know of?
I did wifi router modification before and have objective measurements to show how network performance can be improved reliably with lower network latency and jitter.
@@dougschneider8243My claim is about reducing network latency and jitter with modification. If you understand about sampling jitter and how reducing network jitter can reduce sampling jitter in da conversion, that may work I guess?
Unless you're streaming UDP or have so much packet loss you're running out of buffer network latency and jitter will have absolutely zero impact on audio quality
There is sound improvement with a better aftermarket router and Wi-Fi system.. when I changed both, I am sure the sound improved.. broadband companies give you a low grade router.. very thoughtful discussion… thanks Doug..
The data is buffered inside the DAC or DSP and has no knowledge of how it got there so you must be imagining an improvement. Also all ethernet ports are isolated through transformers etc so the claims are bogus ;)
As a network Engineer (since 1993) I have been discussing with audiophiles, but they are deaf to all facts. Even saying that they hear a difference between ethernet cables, that the sound is getting better by "playing-in" the ethernet cables....
It's not easy to explain logic and facts, is it? That said, they always fall back on the "noise" issue. Well, "burning in" or whatever you want to call it doesn't affect noise.
Audiophile network switch??? Are you kidding? It only passes data packets from one ethernet device to another. Data packet consistency is verified by CRC (cyclic redundancy check). This is nothing to with analog nature of sound. Anyone selling these so called 'audiophile grade network switches' should tell us how they improve 'sound'....
No one claims that the data is altered or lost in any way, the damage in Ethernet connected audio is due to noise coupling into the DAC, and then affecting the DAC clock, and DAC analog output stage.
Providing the CD and hi-res are created from the same master file, yes. Many times, the differences people are hearing are different masterings of recordings.
I’ve tested ‘audiophile’ network switch and there is an audible difference. It’s obvious but not huge. I know it can potentially be psycho-acoustics but I highly doubt it. Not when it affects parameters like sibilant. If I were to unscientifically quantify it, I’d give it no more than 5% improvement. But I would not spend on such components as the money is better put into speakers, amplifier or source. I’m still using a cheap network switch. As for all the talk about A/B double blind test … many want that but they don’t do that when they audition or review equipment. Remember … it’s stated that same song can be made to sound different right? Food for thought. I do dream in colour. 😂 ps yes the core parts are more than often from some IT component manufacturer. Seen the inside of a high-end network switch and it is primarily from an IT component manufacturer. ps who did this channel feature Siltech? Cables are a massive controversy. Would the creator of this video revisit the Siltech video? Siltech cable for digital data … how does it improve sound? Siltech has very expensive Ethernet cable that is very expensive to transfer data. Care to prove or debunk it with a separate video? 😂
"As for all the talk about A/B double blind test … many want that but they don’t do that when they audition or review equipment." Most people don't, but if you really want to suss out if you are truly hearing a difference, it could be good to do it.
Thanks for sharing. I have heard that when the internet signal is converted to a digital signal via fiber optic that any noise is automatically filtered out. This may be a good alternative for streaming hi bit rate audio. MokerLink Gigabit SFP to RJ45 Converter, A Pair 2 Pack Single-Mode Fiber to Ethernet Media Converter, 10/100/1000Mbps RJ45 Port, 1000Base-LX SFP Module 1310nm up to 20KM
Yes, it changes it -- and therefore breaks the electrical connection -- but on the receiving end, you have all kinds of electronics again to receive and decode it. So is that better or worse?
I also have decades working with switches and been an audiophile longer. I actually heard a network switch demo at the Tampa audio show and the sound was actually worse with their expensive switch compared to the cheap switch. They were having some issues but when the owner did the a/b comparison, their multi thousand $$$ switch sounded worse
It would be weird for that to happen, but it's also possible that the "audiophile designer" who created the switch degraded the performance of it such that it wasn't passing the data properly anymore. As I said, without doubt, all these high-priced network switches are simply modifications of existing mass-market ones.
Noise can never be an issue. We're talking about a digital signal, a packet. Even if noise would impact the transmission of the packet, there are safeguards in place like checksums and packet-retransmission to solve this. In the end, the received packet is the same as the sent packet. And if someone claims they the music sounds better or different, that would mean the digital data was affected (which per definition is not possible in a digital transmission). With the right equipment, this can be measured. But so far, no-one seems to have measured anything on these audiophile switches.
It's amazing how the 'experts' quoted as saying that cables and switches make a difference to digital music are the very people making a living out of selling these useless items to the ultra-gullible.
Doug, you appear to be a little misinformed here... Some measurements have been made showing the analog output of DACs changing with different Network switches, look up you tube videos by Alpha audio for example. Additionally, do you actually believe that the current standard set of audio measurements completely describe the performance of a given DAC? If so, I suppose your reference DAC is a Topping D-90, right, as it has "perfect" measurements, right? Or do you accept that the current set of standard measurements are not extensive enough to describe all the sonic attributes of a DAC? I know that, for example, a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC sounds way, way better than a Topping D-90, despite the fact that the measurements show no differences of a level which could be audible. By the same logic, the noise inherent in wired Ethernet Networks may be effecting the DACs output in a way which is not evident from the standard set of measurements. Personally I choose to connect my DACs to the Network via optical fiber Ethernet, which greatly reduces the chance for electrical noise interference with the DAC. Additionally, although I agree that there are some companies charging exorbitant amounts for "Audiophile" switches, which are usually only just a standard commercial switch board in a nice chassis with the addition of a decent linear power supply, there are much more interesting Audiophile Network switch products available where the manufacturers have designed a complete main board of their own, with UpTone Audio Etheregen, or the Nordost switch as examples, and there are at least a couple of others.
Perhaps you can inform me. When I created this video, I saw no measurements showing the output from any DACs. If that's changed, can you tell me where they are? As for the "perfect" measurements that you're talking about, I've never seen a product with perfect measurements, nor have I seen a product where the measurements are identical to another, meaning they couldn't sound difference. There are always differences.
Hi Doug, you might want to check out the measurements here: ruclips.net/video/dstO0650oKk/видео.html As to my comments on "perfect" measuring DACs using the standard set of audio measurements, go the Audio Science Review website and check their measurements of a Topping D-90 vs a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. I put perfect in quotes because, of course, no audio components actually measures perfectly, there is always going to be some element of distortion and noise. While amplifiers and speakers are never going to measure "perfectly", we now have DACs which do. By "perfect" I mean a standard measurement set where all the distortion and noise products are at levels which are non-audible in an audio system playing in a a room. For example, no one is going to hear distortion products at -120 dB in any audio system playing in a room. We have DACs now which measure at these levels, and hence are essentially "perfect" as to any audible noise or distortion on their outputs, and the Tambaqui and D-90 are among these "perfect" DACs. Now there are those who claim these two DACs could not sound any different from one another because the measurements show they are "perfect"! I am not among those persons, and have heard both DACs, and clearly the Tambaqui is another class when it comes to sonics from the D-90, despite that fact that they both measure "perfectly". The point which I was trying to make, is that the standard set of audio measurements is not entirely adequate for determining the performance of an audio component. I do not believe it is impossible to measure everything, but I do believe we do not measure everything, or at least the standard set of audio measurements do not measure everything which matters for sound quality. Hence: it is possible for Network switches to make for a sonic difference which does not show up in the analog output of a connected DAC via the standard set of measurements. I work with a company which develops, manufactures, and distributes Network connected Hi End audio products, (we do not make a switch). And the things we have found which matter to sound quality continually surprise us (we do own an AP and other sophisticated test gear). Some of these things are currently measurable by us, and some are not. For example, most exasperating for me is the effect a better Ethernet clock has on sound quality-it makes an astonishing difference, certainly of a level which is meaningful to audiophiles. Why, I cannot say for sure, one of our digital engineers has a theory (currently unproven) of why, which he is currently trying to find a measurement for, to allow us to quantify these differences-right now, all I know for sure, is that a clock with lower close in phase for the Ethernet clock, does improve sound quality in my testing, and expectation bias before this test was to assume that it would make no difference! As a professional reviewer, I generally respect your work, but in this area it appears that you may have made some assumptions without actually testing things to hear differences for yourself. I would suggest a more open mind might be in order before claiming it is "impossible" for things like Ethernet clock performance to matter to sound quality.
@@barrowsworm1226 Audio Science Review is hardly a voice of authority in hi-fi design -- and they certainly don't speak to me. That said, in that video, can you please tell me where he's showing how these switches affect the output of the DAC?
I am no big fan of ASR either, they are totally closed minded and kind of ridiculous (and they are apparently deaf, haha). But they have published relevant measurements for quite a few products, and those measurements are accurate now that Amir has learned how to actually use his AP (he made some mistakes in the beginning). I am only referring you to them as a source of the measurements I was talking about. Did you actually watch the video I linked??? They demonstrate, specifically, that higher noise on the Ethernet input to streamer (the streamer under test has a DAC as well) results in higher jitter on the analog output of the DAC. That is what they tested.@@dougschneider8243
@@barrowsworm1226So just for you, I watched it all again. Now, unless I'm missing something completely, there are no analog measurements. Instead, he's attached probes somewhere near the clock and he appears to be analyzing its output. That's not the analog output of the DAC. Correct me if I'm wrong and he's doing that somewhere I haven't noticed. More important is that he raises more questions than answers. One question I have is if his test is even valid. He seems to have concocted something and is producing measured outputs, but is this actually showing anything? I'm not going to pretend to answer that, but I did send this video to a couple of digital designers to see if, in fact, it is showing something relevant. And another question I have is why he isolated this test to just one DAC. Surely, a review publication has multiple DACs on hand -- I have five within my line of sight. Why, if he's proving that switches make a difference, didn't he repeat this across multiple DACs to see if they all behave the same? All told, I'm not sure what exactly he is showing -- and if it means anything.
Between those who say it makes no difference and those who say it does i never seen a proof on both sides. Just words. I tried for myself and i heard a big difference. But now i have a bunch of angry people telling me it's in my head 😅 For all the people who don't know, try for yourself and decide. Don't listen to both sides. Just make sure you can send back the product if it doesn't work.
Here is a link to a video discussing the 'noise' on the network channel. Yes, the 'noise' on the data packets can be cleaned up with this 'magical' device 😂.. ruclips.net/video/ZqVyiVHAoLc/видео.html
I appreciate your position but IMHO once you have a revealing enough system, you can hear differences between copper vs fiber, quality SFPs, and linear power supplies. I know it makes no sense based on what I know of networking and buffering, but it is demonstrably true.
I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but this bit of nonsense about a "revealing enough system" comes up often. In my own listening rooms I have speakers from Revel, Estelon, Vivid Audio, and more. I have electronics from EMM Labs, Moon by Simaudio, Anthem, Purifi Audio, and more. This is not only some of the best equipment in the world, the products have been measured in our labs and we know it's all working correctly. What's more, that's just me -- we have numerous writers with equipment that's just as good and "revealing."
@@b00m3rh4nd_sol such a scary words, but you still don't know how networks work. Run a wireshark on that switch and where and which packets/frames are labeled as audio. good luck, dare you.
Ears can be extremely valuable to gauge sound quality -- that is, of course, what matters most. It's what we hear. But listening tests themselves are tremendously unreliable, so to use your ears, you have to set up listening tests properly to make sure you're not fooling yourself.
@@dougschneider8243 So why are you testing audio streamers (transports) and give opinion on how they sound, without measurements to back that claim up ? I don´t get why you are cherry picking and review audio streamer transports (that is still only digital data, one´s and zero´s) but then suddenly refuse to believe in your own ears when reviewing switches. It makes no sense what so ever.
I would respect and even emphasise your opinion if you had reported on specific listening experiences comparing audiophile netswitches with normal-priced netswitches. Unfortunately this is missing. Which audiophile netwitches have you heard in comparison? With which hi-fi components: Routers, streamers, DACs, amps, loudspeakers, headphones. If you haven't done that, it's like car testers who report on Teslas but have never driven a Tesla. Sorry, I wish you a strong increase in competence in the future.
I've never tried a switch and probably only would if I could get one seriously cheap so I could on-sell it without loss. It's interesting that two equipment reviewers that I like (Hans Beekhuyzen and iiwi reviews) both are in support of a difference in hifi systems. They talk right through with diagrams on how the data is unpacked and then sent on re-clocked. I didn't see any of their technical explanations being debunked on your video which was a bit disappointing.
I believe if you revisit Hans Beekhuyzen's channel, his thinking has "switched" on switches. In years past, he proclaimed about reclocking. Shortly after my video came out explaining why, when data is transferred around the internet and through switches, there's no embedded clock in the data stream that matters, he put out a video saying clocking through switches doesn't matter. I could be wrong, but check it out.
Well, all I can say is that if that's all it takes to prove it to you, you must have a low burden of proof. On the other hand, spending too much is not likely to make the sound worse unless someone tries to do something really wonky with a switch.
No. Switches do not forward packets.They forward frames. Routers forward packets. If you are going to attempt talking about this stuff you need to understand what you are talking about.
Some switches work (also) at OSI level 3, handling packets (in addition frames). I don't think we need to go into that level of "correctness " to make the point he's making . It's already hard enough to convince audiophiles the last meter of power (cable) cannot make a difference if the house power wiring is just using ordinary 2,5 mm cable ... (Let's not even start about the influence a starting washing machine would have when on the same circuit 🙄)
come on, flaming the argument just because of a very tiny terminology difference, considering the arguments are for non-technical non computer engineering people is too much
As usual for the ones which declare what is impossible: Have you tried your ears ? And the white stuff in between ? You did not hear a difference ? Fine if you are satisfied with Spotify. But dont try to explain things your system can't reveal.
I often think that when we publish a video that we should put a timer on to see how long it takes someone to say that a system isn't revealing enough. Did you know that we have more than 20 writers and, on almost a daily basis, equipment from all over the world comes through our doors? I personally have access to the least and most expensive audio equipment on the planet. Furthermore, we measure most of it in state-of-the-art facilities. Revealing, huh? Try to find anything more revealing at a given time than the equipment that's around here. Sorry, try another tactic.
It is not about tactic, but just about experience in serious listening. And if I can hear things changing, when I insert different switches in my simple system, and you say there is no difference for you , I just can assume your gear does not reveal a difference. And since I an not the only one HEARING a difference; I cant say it is true what you write here. Thats it. Simple as that. No tactics, just listening carefully. @@dougschneider8243
I would respect and even emphasise your opinion if you had reported on specific listening experiences comparing audiophile netswitches with normal-priced netswitches. Unfortunately this is missing. Which audiophile netwitches have you heard in comparison? With which hi-fi components: Routers, streamers, DACs, amps, loudspeakers, headphones. If you haven't done that, it's like car testers who report on Teslas but have never driven a Tesla. Sorry, I wish you a strong increase in competence in the future.
When I worked in a hi-fi shop over 20 years ago, all the salesmen were interested in the differences the cables made. When I was asked to do a cable test, I would often do nothing.... that is, lie about making the switch. EVERY TIME I did this, an improvement was still "heard." And I fell for it too on multiple occasions. It's just human nature - nothing to be embarrassed by.
Here's the thing -- you might not've been totally lying, and this is something I'm going to make a video about. More often than not, if you play something once, then again, with no changes, people will perceive a difference. Why? Familiarity as far as I can tell. They are simply getting accustomed to it. So they actually ARE hearing a change.
@@dougschneider8243 I agree. The thing with music is there’s so much going on, you’re never focusing on the exact same part/instruments twice. And you can’t pause to scrutinize like with video .
@@HansenMath100% true, which makes these definitive judgements that so many make so suspect.
Being a retired electrical engineer for more years than I can now believe I have really struggled when these topics surface. For what ever reason it always seems to come down to “well your system is not revealing enough”, just so sick and tired of hearing that as an excuse for everything audiophile. Is it just a way for them to justify the expense they made buying into such. How many recording studios and engineers have invested in cables and switches as the audiophiles seem to. How do we take recordings from the fifties and sixties and then apply todays somewhat bogus technology and get to “oh hale, the sound is just so marvelously improved. Yes, many are remastered to enhance the experience but do you suppose there is anything in the ordinal tape recording to reveal? I find it easier just to shut up and find another more meaningful conversation to join. But you know it will never end!
The whole "system is not revealing enough" comment is almost always a farce. I can easily shut it down the moment I list off the equipment I have within a few feet of me -- state-of-the-art electronics, speakers, etc. Plus, we always have something coming and going -- and I travel the world to some of the best hi-fi companies. Furthermore, we have a great electronics lab and we measure most of the speakers in the NRC's anechoic chamber. But even apart from that, put on a good set of headphones and play a music file through any decent headphone amp. You're going to hear EVERYTHING that's possible to hear. It's nonsense and, yeah, I'm sick of tired of hearing that excuse.
Excellent Video Doug. I work in IT and am a WiFi/Wireless Engineer. Worked both sides of the Border. I use a $30USD Netgear 8 Port Switch which is tapped off of my Cable Modem (it even has two RJ45's). I built a single power supply for all my 12VDC devices with a Toroidal/Industrial FW Rectifier, and some good power supply filtering. Why ? Cause I can..LOL ! Did it make a difference....Oh HELL NO ! But it cleaned up a rats nest of wires and wall warts. Hell, I don't even use AC Line Conditioners. But I run two dedicated 20A circuits (10AWG stranded Armoured Cable for all my Audio crap and 12AWG solid Romex for all my computer crap and peripherals).
The Dedicated AC Lines made a huge difference. But I laugh at people who believe in Ethernet Regenerators, converting Electrical to Optical via SFP modules. In the IT world these are a must. But in the Consumer side it's asinine. I do use non Audiophile shielded RJ-45 cables. No clues if it makes a difference but I feel better.
It's all Placebo effect. All our DAC's/Disc Transports/FEC circuits/Clocks do all the heavy lifting because the designers know a thing or two about power supply and circuit board design.
Great post!
Thanks for your detailed response. I'm really happy to read it. Whenever I make something a little bit technical, I always know I run the risk of someone smashing back. Your justification for building the power supplies is perfect -- because you "can." That's great. About dedicated lines -- these ARE a thing. In fact, in our lab, all amp measurements are done on a 20A dedicated circuit. The power-output measurements are greatly improved over a 15A shared circuit. This is actually the #1 upgrade, as opposed to, say, a power conditioner.
Excellent way of putting it in in true perspective. Thanks 👍
I guess nobody says a smpsu+cheap switch makes the Stones sound like the Beatles.. we are talking not about function but a relatively small difference. And btw the thing about smpsus is not their problematic DC output (although there are differences) but their hash into the power net if (if!!) picked up by a sensitive audio device. In an all SMPSU powered hifi system with D-class amps I would assume that hash is no issue..
I agree. Last year I wanted to find out for myself what difference switches made to an already well resolved set up. So I bought around 10 different switches from the usual suspects (including couple of audiophile switches) + 6 hi-end LPS from well known manufacturers. Anyway, after trying all different combinations of switches and power supplies for over 8 months…I have gone back to my original set up without a switch…and USB connection!!!
So the larger question is do switches make a difference…YES they do. Every switch/LPS combo I tried changed the presentation to varying degrees…but it was just different…and not better, in my set up.
"hi-end LPS from well known manufacturers" - why buy, you can make your own, basic skills needed.
9:46 : right! I’m a so called « audiophile » and did this experience and was sure there was an improvement with just a little trick in the chain.
I will remove my Ethernet switch and see if can still hear a difference. Interesting topic.
Anyway, for sure good cables and good accessories make a difference but I’ve decided that in the future I will mainly invest on good speakers and good amps only.
Let us know!
I'll be interested.
This is very well explained and a nice injection of sanity after reading a whole lot of crazy & lazy things today before arriving here.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks! Happy that you found it sane.
Great video !!
Can't believe people are buying this stuff without getting any decent lab results, let alone being able to participate in a (double) blind test ...
For the most part, I agree. I'd change my mind if someone can demonstration the effect(s), mind you. That said, right now I feel people are buying based on dubious reviewer stories and misinformation.
The tell in my setup is the stream to the TV. The PQ improvement was very noticeable. I will stick with my filtering ethernet switch.
thank you very much for the video, enjoy hearing both perspectives. I am a tinkerer and really love this hobby because it allows me to be curious. I have experimented with switches and external reclocker attached to my switch (yes I am in deep haha). I can not say you are wrong and I believe your points have a lot of validity. It is very easy for me to switch all of that extra gear out and go straight to my lumin steamer/dac. Very easy to tell the difference. Would be interested to know if someone could measure what is causing this change? Would be thrilled to sell extra gear and only keep the part that is causing the marked improvement.
Also I have within the last year added 4 dedicated 20 amp 10 guage electrical lines to my system for my Pass Labs amps and Rel subs.The result was minimal other than peace of mind. Is it possible that some of us have different issues in our systems. Some may have real dirty lines and a dedicated outlet may yield great improvement , others like mine, may not be terrible and yield negligible results. Likewise is it possible some may have real internet issues and there are devices (maybe a switch 😏) which could improve their systems greatly?
I think the point you bring up about "issues" is a good one. Why put in a power conditioner if there are no power issues? I don't believe I have any power issues in my house, but I do know I had them when I lived on the 22nd floor of an apartment building. Sometimes I'd have almost brownout conditions. That's why dedicated powerlines are a very good thing. But internet switches, I think a lot more work needs to be done with those.
Awesome analysis, clearly expressed. Thank you so much.
My experience has been that :
Using fiber blocks any noise coming from the switch that’s connected to Comcast’s modem .
It’s a 150$ Cisco switch solution with 4 SFP ports .
I did audition Inuos phenixNet switch with Clock in it . 3500 MSRP .
I did not end up keeping it it did not make difference for me .
Tried a number of high end network devices including the Network Acoustics Muon Pro with their Ethernet cable along with the Synergistic Research UEF BOTH NORTH OF £2500 on my Gryphon MSB system -although the SR UEF had a tiny difference but seriously small the highly reviewed Muon Pro which the dealer said is very good and sells well did absolutely zero. However cables whether speaker, balanced make a huge difference if you have a very transparent top end system. Anybody who says they don’t is simply death or in most cases hasn’t tried them or their system is good enough to hear those differences as they are as clear as day. Although there are a number of top brands I’ve heard from Audioquest to Shunyata having heard a 3K mains did zero in my system. Plus a lot has to do the synergy as what sounds good in one system may sound rubbish in another. Room acoustics also can heavily influence the sound massively -wooden floors, soft furnishing etc.
I have tried an UpTone EtherREGEN and it made a very noticeable improve to the sound quality of my system. I bought it fully expecting to listen to it, find no difference and send it back. I still have it 2.5 years later. I have swapped it in and out many times. Every time I remove it the sound of my system is degraded. My system sounds harder, more irritating and less musical without the UpTone EtherREGEN. Sorry guys I hear a difference and many many other people do as well. So there is something very real going on here and someone just needs to figure out how to measure it.
What kind of digital source(s) is plugged into it?
@@dougschneider8243 Right now I am using Bryston BDA-3.
@@dougschneider8243 I am using a Bryston BDA-3 DAC fed via USB by a SOtM Trifecta. The SOtM gear is being fed by the UpTone EtherREGEN. I sounds very nice. It is a huge improvement over feeding the BDA-3 DAC directly via USB from my windows laptop. Night and Day.
i really appreciate your taking the time to counter this BS narrative.
it was making me slightly crazy to see nobody stand up for reality, make arguments from a proper understanding of how things work
just one hell of a good video. this is why i subscribed
We are happy you found it useful!
@@WeeWeeJumbo Very glad to hear!
Howdy.
Technically the quality of the IP-DAC internal clock may cause jitter. But not the switch.
And if someone is concerned about noise propagation in the Ethernet cables I may suggest using optical fiber interconnects,
Regards.
Great points
I imagine I'd feel pretty attacked by this video if I spent $3000 on an audiophile grade switch that was just a rehoused switch that originally sold for $40 at a computer store.
But you'll be a happy person if you see this before.
But what affect does resent packets have on sound? It will have more overhead on the processors.
Packets get sent and resent all the time. An audiophile switch is not going to make a single bit of difference about that. Furthermore, all this talk about "processors" is what fueled the FLAC vs. WAV debates. Processing happens in computers -- and sometimes processors work more or less. That's just part of the life of a computer. As for the ridiculous notion that this can affect the sound quality of a FLAC file has been pointed out by me and by others -- the most time-intensive tasks on a computer are I/O tasks, such as reading from a drive. With a FLAC file, there's a lot less to read. But the who processor thing is, nevertheless, a red herring.
@@dougschneider8243 I meant the DAC as a processor. If data with the wrong checksum is thrown out and data with the correct checksum is buffered in the stream there must be some effect.
@@kenwong9796Hi, I think this is rarely if ever an issue. Honestly, the internet wouldn't work the way it does if we had these errors getting through. You watched my video without a problem. Passing music data around is NOT a problem. And that's why we have buffers. Furthermore, jitter reclocking ONLY matters right at the point of conversion. Right there. I made a video about that here: ruclips.net/video/xwAspcxqYmQ/видео.htmlsi=vva-Y3lp-8U1ML3N
A bit late but... My FLAC files give less than 1GB for an album. That can be transferred on 1Gigabit network in less than 20secs, say. Resending packets is rare, but even so, not an issue.
Overhead is nothing compared to all the other stuff going on.
Do you watch streamed movies? How often is there a glitch? And video is more demanding than audio.
Compared with the number of packet resends that happen before streamed audio gets to your router, how important do you think that last step will be in the whole chain ? Especially since the distance is almost zero, so the chance of getting a access conflict or a transfer error is also close to zero.
The very funny thing is, some of these high-end audiophile switches advertise that their switch uses especially slower chips hence transfer rates (i.e. 100mbit/s in stead of ≥ 1Gbps) , to avoid creating noise ... If it wasn't so sad, you'd be rolling on the floor ...
A faster processor is capable of handling any resend/error with even more ease then a slower one.
And regarding noise : putting your audio on a different power circuit might be useful (I think this is one of the few things that really make a difference, besides working balanced wherever possible), and you might consider optical connections, although - if digital noise is your concern - one shouldn't underestimate the potential for noise-induction of an sfp module (besides the digital circuit everyone contains LC lowpass filter ...)
Assuming you have a good quality switch, the biggest factor is the overall throughput of the LAN and the Backplane of the Switch. If you have more Backplane capacity than you Throughput needs, you have the Switch you need. If all your doing is streaming some audio and or Netflix even at 4K to a couple of TVs in your house, any decent Network Switch is going to be non factor in the path.
Indeed!
Just some additional info. ALL RJ45 ports on all network devices HAVE TO provide galvanic isolation. That is enforced by the Ethernet standard. All even the cheapest of switches have that. Usually it is implemented through a transformer. In expensive devices it might use an optical isolation. Even the transformer (magnetic) isolation will do away with most any noise being transferred from the network device to the receiver. RF noise can always be picked by the cable. So the one and ONLY thing one should take care of is use doubly shielded ethernet cables. They only cost a few cents more than the unshielded or singly shielded ones.
All cars have to provide safety for their passengers in case of an accident, which is enforced by the law. Reality is that in some cars you can get easily killed, while other hi-end cars protect your life much better.
@@andru2625 In case you haven't noticed we are not talking about cars. Not all metaphors are valid.. There are not many ways to provide galvanic isolation on ethernet ports. You do it either through transformers or through optical conversion. If a device does not provide optical conversion then no matter how audiophile it purports to be and how much money it asks from you, it is doing no more than your run-of-the-mill network switch.
What about LAN filter devices? I always wondered about those.
Our opinion is that they probably won't hurt -- but they probably won't help.
Why not just use Wifi? No more electrical noise carrying and infecting the packets....what's the argument against? It all ends up in the same buffer anyway
I'm going to push back just a little bit. I've been using Wi-Fi off and on since about 2007 (when I got a Slim Devices Transporter). It can work exceedingly well. The only caveat is the implementation. If it's poorly implemented in the receiving circuit, it can generate the problems you'd expect, like noise. But if it's well implemented, it cuts the electrical connection between components and can work extremely well.
@@dougschneider8243 are there any receiving units you'd recommend?
@@dougschneider8243 How does one know if the receiving unit has bad implementation? I notice a few high end streamers now are gutting the wifi altogether to let the consumer figure it out - is there a quality extender you know of?
@@mat.b. Measurements can help tell the story. Unfortunately, it's not possible to measure every component out there.
I did wifi router modification before and have objective measurements to show how network performance can be improved reliably with lower network latency and jitter.
All ears -- go ahead and demonstrate the measurements that show this. But also, know the measurements have to show the impact on the converter.
@@dougschneider8243My claim is about reducing network latency and jitter with modification. If you understand about sampling jitter and how reducing network jitter can reduce sampling jitter in da conversion, that may work I guess?
Unless you're streaming UDP or have so much packet loss you're running out of buffer network latency and jitter will have absolutely zero impact on audio quality
@@dougschneider8243 I'm intrigued but I'm not sure if I can take wave of comments from unreasonable people.
@@v0ldy54 Yamaha concluded that cable and network also affect jitter.
Thank you. I had a 20+ year career in IT. This is 100% correct.
Thank you for the feedback!
Nice and important topic for all audiophile.
What qualifies something as “audiophile grade” is my question ??
Ones marketing specifically to audiophiles.
A shiny box...LOL !
Something with a price tag of at least 15 times the actual worth of the product
Two,words: galvanic isolation.
There is sound improvement with a better aftermarket router and Wi-Fi system.. when I changed both, I am sure the sound improved.. broadband companies give you a low grade router.. very thoughtful discussion… thanks Doug..
Or not. That's just not how data works.
The data is buffered inside the DAC or DSP and has no knowledge of how it got there so you must be imagining an improvement. Also all ethernet ports are isolated through transformers etc so the claims are bogus ;)
You should try audiophile grade oxygen free air now. The effect is drop dead magnificent.
As a network Engineer (since 1993) I have been discussing with audiophiles, but they are deaf to all facts. Even saying that they hear a difference between ethernet cables, that the sound is getting better by "playing-in" the ethernet cables....
It's not easy to explain logic and facts, is it? That said, they always fall back on the "noise" issue. Well, "burning in" or whatever you want to call it doesn't affect noise.
Audiophile network switch??? Are you kidding? It only passes data packets from one ethernet device to another. Data packet consistency is verified by CRC (cyclic redundancy check). This is nothing to with analog nature of sound. Anyone selling these so called 'audiophile grade network switches' should tell us how they improve 'sound'....
And that's the gist of my video!
No one claims that the data is altered or lost in any way, the damage in Ethernet connected audio is due to noise coupling into the DAC, and then affecting the DAC clock, and DAC analog output stage.
@@barrowsworm1226 bollocks. Google doesn't use any of that nonsense in their data centers yet video you watch is uncorrupted.
It’s hard enough to tell the difference between a 320kb mp3 and a cd. Cd to a hi res file is virtually impossible.
Providing the CD and hi-res are created from the same master file, yes. Many times, the differences people are hearing are different masterings of recordings.
I’ve tested ‘audiophile’ network switch and there is an audible difference. It’s obvious but not huge. I know it can potentially be psycho-acoustics but I highly doubt it. Not when it affects parameters like sibilant.
If I were to unscientifically quantify it, I’d give it no more than 5% improvement.
But I would not spend on such components as the money is better put into speakers, amplifier or source. I’m still using a cheap network switch.
As for all the talk about A/B double blind test … many want that but they don’t do that when they audition or review equipment. Remember … it’s stated that same song can be made to sound different right? Food for thought.
I do dream in colour. 😂
ps yes the core parts are more than often from some IT component manufacturer. Seen the inside of a high-end network switch and it is primarily from an IT component manufacturer.
ps who did this channel feature Siltech? Cables are a massive controversy. Would the creator of this video revisit the Siltech video? Siltech cable for digital data … how does it improve sound? Siltech has very expensive Ethernet cable that is very expensive to transfer data.
Care to prove or debunk it with a separate video? 😂
"As for all the talk about A/B double blind test … many want that but they don’t do that when they audition or review equipment."
Most people don't, but if you really want to suss out if you are truly hearing a difference, it could be good to do it.
@@dougschneider8243… that I do not disagree. I can’t.
Thanks for sharing. I have heard that when the internet signal is converted to a digital signal via fiber optic that any noise is automatically filtered out. This may be a good alternative for streaming hi bit rate audio. MokerLink Gigabit SFP to RJ45 Converter, A Pair 2 Pack Single-Mode Fiber to Ethernet Media Converter, 10/100/1000Mbps RJ45 Port, 1000Base-LX SFP Module 1310nm up to 20KM
Yes, it changes it -- and therefore breaks the electrical connection -- but on the receiving end, you have all kinds of electronics again to receive and decode it. So is that better or worse?
I also have decades working with switches and been an audiophile longer. I actually heard a network switch demo at the Tampa audio show and the sound was actually worse with their expensive switch compared to the cheap switch. They were having some issues but when the owner did the a/b comparison, their multi thousand $$$ switch sounded worse
It would be weird for that to happen, but it's also possible that the "audiophile designer" who created the switch degraded the performance of it such that it wasn't passing the data properly anymore. As I said, without doubt, all these high-priced network switches are simply modifications of existing mass-market ones.
If someone wants to waste their money on what is basically just a jewellery covered box you can get a bestbuy for 1/10 of the price let them.
Noise can never be an issue. We're talking about a digital signal, a packet. Even if noise would impact the transmission of the packet, there are safeguards in place like checksums and packet-retransmission to solve this. In the end, the received packet is the same as the sent packet. And if someone claims they the music sounds better or different, that would mean the digital data was affected (which per definition is not possible in a digital transmission). With the right equipment, this can be measured. But so far, no-one seems to have measured anything on these audiophile switches.
It's amazing how the 'experts' quoted as saying that cables and switches make a difference to digital music are the very people making a living out of selling these useless items to the ultra-gullible.
Agreed ... that fact that the OEM doesn't provide any objective measurements tells you all you need to know.
Doug, you appear to be a little misinformed here... Some measurements have been made showing the analog output of DACs changing with different Network switches, look up you tube videos by Alpha audio for example. Additionally, do you actually believe that the current standard set of audio measurements completely describe the performance of a given DAC? If so, I suppose your reference DAC is a Topping D-90, right, as it has "perfect" measurements, right? Or do you accept that the current set of standard measurements are not extensive enough to describe all the sonic attributes of a DAC? I know that, for example, a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC sounds way, way better than a Topping D-90, despite the fact that the measurements show no differences of a level which could be audible. By the same logic, the noise inherent in wired Ethernet Networks may be effecting the DACs output in a way which is not evident from the standard set of measurements.
Personally I choose to connect my DACs to the Network via optical fiber Ethernet, which greatly reduces the chance for electrical noise interference with the DAC.
Additionally, although I agree that there are some companies charging exorbitant amounts for "Audiophile" switches, which are usually only just a standard commercial switch board in a nice chassis with the addition of a decent linear power supply, there are much more interesting Audiophile Network switch products available where the manufacturers have designed a complete main board of their own, with UpTone Audio Etheregen, or the Nordost switch as examples, and there are at least a couple of others.
Perhaps you can inform me. When I created this video, I saw no measurements showing the output from any DACs. If that's changed, can you tell me where they are? As for the "perfect" measurements that you're talking about, I've never seen a product with perfect measurements, nor have I seen a product where the measurements are identical to another, meaning they couldn't sound difference. There are always differences.
Hi Doug, you might want to check out the measurements here:
ruclips.net/video/dstO0650oKk/видео.html
As to my comments on "perfect" measuring DACs using the standard set of audio measurements, go the Audio Science Review website and check their measurements of a Topping D-90 vs a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. I put perfect in quotes because, of course, no audio components actually measures perfectly, there is always going to be some element of distortion and noise. While amplifiers and speakers are never going to measure "perfectly", we now have DACs which do. By "perfect" I mean a standard measurement set where all the distortion and noise products are at levels which are non-audible in an audio system playing in a a room. For example, no one is going to hear distortion products at -120 dB in any audio system playing in a room. We have DACs now which measure at these levels, and hence are essentially "perfect" as to any audible noise or distortion on their outputs, and the Tambaqui and D-90 are among these "perfect" DACs. Now there are those who claim these two DACs could not sound any different from one another because the measurements show they are "perfect"! I am not among those persons, and have heard both DACs, and clearly the Tambaqui is another class when it comes to sonics from the D-90, despite that fact that they both measure "perfectly".
The point which I was trying to make, is that the standard set of audio measurements is not entirely adequate for determining the performance of an audio component. I do not believe it is impossible to measure everything, but I do believe we do not measure everything, or at least the standard set of audio measurements do not measure everything which matters for sound quality. Hence: it is possible for Network switches to make for a sonic difference which does not show up in the analog output of a connected DAC via the standard set of measurements.
I work with a company which develops, manufactures, and distributes Network connected Hi End audio products, (we do not make a switch). And the things we have found which matter to sound quality continually surprise us (we do own an AP and other sophisticated test gear). Some of these things are currently measurable by us, and some are not. For example, most exasperating for me is the effect a better Ethernet clock has on sound quality-it makes an astonishing difference, certainly of a level which is meaningful to audiophiles. Why, I cannot say for sure, one of our digital engineers has a theory (currently unproven) of why, which he is currently trying to find a measurement for, to allow us to quantify these differences-right now, all I know for sure, is that a clock with lower close in phase for the Ethernet clock, does improve sound quality in my testing, and expectation bias before this test was to assume that it would make no difference!
As a professional reviewer, I generally respect your work, but in this area it appears that you may have made some assumptions without actually testing things to hear differences for yourself. I would suggest a more open mind might be in order before claiming it is "impossible" for things like Ethernet clock performance to matter to sound quality.
@@barrowsworm1226 Audio Science Review is hardly a voice of authority in hi-fi design -- and they certainly don't speak to me. That said, in that video, can you please tell me where he's showing how these switches affect the output of the DAC?
I am no big fan of ASR either, they are totally closed minded and kind of ridiculous (and they are apparently deaf, haha). But they have published relevant measurements for quite a few products, and those measurements are accurate now that Amir has learned how to actually use his AP (he made some mistakes in the beginning). I am only referring you to them as a source of the measurements I was talking about.
Did you actually watch the video I linked??? They demonstrate, specifically, that higher noise on the Ethernet input to streamer (the streamer under test has a DAC as well) results in higher jitter on the analog output of the DAC. That is what they tested.@@dougschneider8243
@@barrowsworm1226So just for you, I watched it all again. Now, unless I'm missing something completely, there are no analog measurements. Instead, he's attached probes somewhere near the clock and he appears to be analyzing its output. That's not the analog output of the DAC. Correct me if I'm wrong and he's doing that somewhere I haven't noticed.
More important is that he raises more questions than answers. One question I have is if his test is even valid. He seems to have concocted something and is producing measured outputs, but is this actually showing anything? I'm not going to pretend to answer that, but I did send this video to a couple of digital designers to see if, in fact, it is showing something relevant.
And another question I have is why he isolated this test to just one DAC. Surely, a review publication has multiple DACs on hand -- I have five within my line of sight. Why, if he's proving that switches make a difference, didn't he repeat this across multiple DACs to see if they all behave the same?
All told, I'm not sure what exactly he is showing -- and if it means anything.
Between those who say it makes no difference and those who say it does i never seen a proof on both sides. Just words.
I tried for myself and i heard a big difference. But now i have a bunch of angry people telling me it's in my head 😅
For all the people who don't know, try for yourself and decide. Don't listen to both sides. Just make sure you can send back the product if it doesn't work.
Just get a Huawei 6G router for US40 . Connect streamer direct using lan and WiFi for everything else , TV, movies , etc.
Audition the Melco S100/2 and the Silent Angel Forester 2 power supply
It’s all about the Ethernet chipset and associated power supply.
And what exactly does the ethernet chipset do that other ethernet chipsets don't do? Plus, I addressed the power supply issue in the video.
Here is a link to a video discussing the 'noise' on the network channel. Yes, the 'noise' on the data packets can be cleaned up with this 'magical' device 😂.. ruclips.net/video/ZqVyiVHAoLc/видео.html
Wow! Some very lofty claims in there! I particularly like how the solder will affect the bass -- on a box that transmits digital data.
I appreciate your position but IMHO once you have a revealing enough system, you can hear differences between copper vs fiber, quality SFPs, and linear power supplies. I know it makes no sense based on what I know of networking and buffering, but it is demonstrably true.
I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but this bit of nonsense about a "revealing enough system" comes up often. In my own listening rooms I have speakers from Revel, Estelon, Vivid Audio, and more. I have electronics from EMM Labs, Moon by Simaudio, Anthem, Purifi Audio, and more. This is not only some of the best equipment in the world, the products have been measured in our labs and we know it's all working correctly. What's more, that's just me -- we have numerous writers with equipment that's just as good and "revealing."
what type of "revealing"? single 8 inch widerange driven by tubes? or something like TOTL Genelecs, PSI, Neumann?
@@AudriusN HiFiMan HE1000se or better. HoloAudio Bliss. Mainly HQPlayer to DSD.
@@b00m3rh4nd_sol such a scary words, but you still don't know how networks work. Run a wireshark on that switch and where and which packets/frames are labeled as audio. good luck, dare you.
"audiophile" ethernet switches should come bundled with oxygen-free audiophile air, that would make a drop dead performance.
Won't improve the sound at all.
Try the Dejitterit Switch X A/B it to your rig through standard whatever box you use and swap ethernet cables and hear for yourself
Just use your ears and add a network switch and see if you hear a sound quality improvement.
Ears can be extremely valuable to gauge sound quality -- that is, of course, what matters most. It's what we hear. But listening tests themselves are tremendously unreliable, so to use your ears, you have to set up listening tests properly to make sure you're not fooling yourself.
@@dougschneider8243 So why are you testing audio streamers (transports) and give opinion on how they sound, without measurements to back that claim up ?
I don´t get why you are cherry picking and review audio streamer transports (that is still only digital data, one´s and zero´s) but then suddenly refuse to believe in your own ears when reviewing switches. It makes no sense what so ever.
I would respect and even emphasise your opinion if you had reported on specific listening experiences comparing audiophile netswitches with normal-priced netswitches. Unfortunately this is missing. Which audiophile netwitches have you heard in comparison? With which hi-fi components: Routers, streamers, DACs, amps, loudspeakers, headphones. If you haven't done that, it's like car testers who report on Teslas but have never driven a Tesla. Sorry, I wish you a strong increase in competence in the future.
I've never tried a switch and probably only would if I could get one seriously cheap so I could on-sell it without loss.
It's interesting that two equipment reviewers that I like (Hans Beekhuyzen and iiwi reviews) both are in support of a difference in hifi systems. They talk right through with diagrams on how the data is unpacked and then sent on re-clocked. I didn't see any of their technical explanations being debunked on your video which was a bit disappointing.
I believe if you revisit Hans Beekhuyzen's channel, his thinking has "switched" on switches. In years past, he proclaimed about reclocking. Shortly after my video came out explaining why, when data is transferred around the internet and through switches, there's no embedded clock in the data stream that matters, he put out a video saying clocking through switches doesn't matter. I could be wrong, but check it out.
@@soundstagenetwork I'll check out his channel now, cheers
Hans and Jaap said they work and improve the sound. That’s good enough for me.
Well, all I can say is that if that's all it takes to prove it to you, you must have a low burden of proof. On the other hand, spending too much is not likely to make the sound worse unless someone tries to do something really wonky with a switch.
You haven't looked that hard.
Huh?
No. Switches do not forward packets.They forward frames. Routers forward packets. If you are going to attempt talking about this stuff you need to understand what you are talking about.
Some switches work (also) at OSI level 3, handling packets (in addition frames).
I don't think we need to go into that level of "correctness " to make the point he's making .
It's already hard enough to convince audiophiles the last meter of power (cable) cannot make a difference if the house power wiring is just using ordinary 2,5 mm cable ...
(Let's not even start about the influence a starting washing machine would have when on the same circuit 🙄)
come on, flaming the argument just because of a very tiny terminology difference, considering the arguments are for non-technical non computer engineering people is too much
Another really good video on the subject . Includes measurements :
ruclips.net/video/BHPwPRLxDWc/видео.htmlsi=bNmrzk3lMxxicpfb
As usual for the ones which declare what is impossible: Have you tried your ears ? And the white stuff in between ? You did not hear a difference ? Fine if you are satisfied with Spotify. But dont try to explain things your system can't reveal.
I often think that when we publish a video that we should put a timer on to see how long it takes someone to say that a system isn't revealing enough. Did you know that we have more than 20 writers and, on almost a daily basis, equipment from all over the world comes through our doors? I personally have access to the least and most expensive audio equipment on the planet. Furthermore, we measure most of it in state-of-the-art facilities. Revealing, huh? Try to find anything more revealing at a given time than the equipment that's around here. Sorry, try another tactic.
It is not about tactic, but just about experience in serious listening. And if I can hear things changing, when I insert different switches in my simple system, and you say there is no difference for you , I just can assume your gear does not reveal a difference. And since I an not the only one HEARING a difference; I cant say it is true what you write here. Thats it. Simple as that. No tactics, just listening carefully. @@dougschneider8243
🤢
Yeah, planet earth is also flat. Block.
I would respect and even emphasise your opinion if you had reported on specific listening experiences comparing audiophile netswitches with normal-priced netswitches. Unfortunately this is missing. Which audiophile netwitches have you heard in comparison? With which hi-fi components: Routers, streamers, DACs, amps, loudspeakers, headphones. If you haven't done that, it's like car testers who report on Teslas but have never driven a Tesla. Sorry, I wish you a strong increase in competence in the future.