Rob Liefeld and the Deathmate Incident, plus a Brief History of Valiant and the 90s Speculator Boom
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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Развлечения
I worked at Valiant back in the day (ruined a lot of Rags Morales art with my coloring) and I can say I didn't know anyone in Knob Row who didn't get paid by the page. Most of us were fresh out of the Kubert School and Valiant was our first paying art job. There were plenty of things wrong about that place, but making comics with free art wasn't one of them.
Thanks so much for sharing! That's awesome because all the stuff I read made reference to unpaid work! Did any of Knob Row go on to break out or anything? I looked through a bunch of lists and never came across anyone. Can't thank you enough for chiming in and I hope this was decent given your insider knowledge+
@@JerkComic David Chlystek, Andrew Covalt, Jorge Gonzalez, Maurice Fontenot and myself all work in animation now. Mike Cavallaro has been writing and drawing his own comics for many years now as well as doing some animation work and teaching at SVA.
Thank you so much for sharing and clarifying! Every single article I read made it sound like you all were like stuck in a sweat shop style environment with the promise of working on "real comics". That's great to hear that not only were you paid, but you all went on to successful careers in the illustration field even if it wasn't comics. I really appreciate you taking the time to share as I am going to be doing a viewer comment video soon hopefully and can share this to clarify you all WERE getting paid. I almost cringe to ask, is there anything else I got dead wrong on this one? I'm a one man army and obviously, not gonna be perfect with no one else to vet my stuff but I do like making every effort to share expanded and corrected info with viewers when I can get it.
Also, I rewatched this and that section is like super harsh and judgemental sounding to me now... I seriously hope I didn't say anything untoward as I honestly meant no offense other than I thought Shooter was takign advantage of people.
@@williamjosephdunn5879 Are you okay if I share this in a video addendum video? I'd like to clarify this subject and point out my mistake if that's cool?
I probably had a few of your issues. You’re too hard on yourself. I remember those being good looking books.
I did recently purchase a ton of Valiant and Malibu Comics for 15 cents each, I was amazed to see almost all of them have never been read. I also got a lot of multiple copies
Yup. When you get a Valiant collection it's either straight complete runs, or straight complete runs with TONS of duplicates and variants, haha. I had always wondered exactly why, assumed it was tied to collecting, but working on this it was interesting to find out precisely why that was. Thanks so much for checking this out, hope you enjoyed and I seriously appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment. It helps out the channel a ton and it means a lot - so thanks again!
Jim Shooter was done dirty by so, so many. Most creative types are precious and sensitive and they like to think everyone is holding them back
I think this is very true in a lot of cases. I also think Shooter is a raging controloholic with an ego the size of Mogo the living planet. He's continually found himself on the outside because he's a staunch, rigid and unforgiving man who takes and gives little quarter to those below him in the food chain, but is willing to spout any inane hose manure that the higher ups are telling him to and cow tows to his bosses in sickening ways. My personal beef has to do with Kirby, but regardless of Shooter being a winging dink and egomaniac - I think there's little arguing that letting Shooter go was the beginning of the end of Valiant, because in reality, Shooter WAS Valiant and Valiant WAS Shooter. There was no separating the two and I for one was really sad to see a lot of these properties go, especially the way they did...
The man knew how to keep a ship afloat and make money with quality material, but people want to overlook that cause feelings and allegiances to artists who really couldn't give more of a toss about them defending their work.
Shooter did some crappy stuff too. See how he destroyed the original Avengers/JLA negotiations solely to spite George Perez.
I remember being so excited for Valiant comics and also being bummed when the crash hit. This is a great walk down memory lane! You should be doing this in person as a college tour or at least a guest lecturer.
I was actually invited by the city to do a speech at one of the LCSs for FCBD, it should be fun I think. I suffer from pretty severe panic attacks and have really severe social anxiety so I'm not sure how well I would fair on the speech circuit, but I've long dreamed of doing something like that. I love interacting with other comic fans, which is why I always premiere videos and try to respond to comments and stuff. I'd have no clue where to even start with something like that either now that I think of it, haha!
Thanks for checking this out, glad you enjoyed - I know I remember when that crash hit too, man them were some dark times! Really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment as well, helps out the channel and I love knowing people are actually watching and enjoying these monsters as I know they're not short!
This entire story is heartbreaking really. I know of several comic shops in Louisville that went under during that 1994 time period, stores like Squeeze Play or Triple Play, which you can guess started as baseball card shops. Squeeze Play had a chain of stores in the area and I remember around the time of Deathmate Black the guys there being pissed at what was going on with the lateness of Red. Other stores like Comic Book World or The Great Escape never quite fell for the speculator thing (or had other stuff like music) and they survived.
I actually quit reading comics during that time period. Some of it was simply losing interest as I was in high school now, but I also felt like all I was doing was buying wacky gimmick cover issues like a lot of other people. My entertainment wasn't worth the money being spent. In fact I never read Red or the Epilogue until 15 years later. When I did it was like "That was it, huh?" Red was at least better than Black though. Black was actually Marc Silvestri's book more than Jim Lee, though I guess WildCATS are in it. The bottom line is this: People don't have to read crap. When faced with getting bad comics or buying various CDs of bands I still like to this day, the choice was pretty easy.
Valiant was my favorite comic company. I loved those books at the time, although the early issues were so ridiculously costly I couldn't buy them at the time. Eventually circa 2006 I managed to get Harbinger #1, Magnus #12, and all that. I think one dilemma Valiant had is they hotshotted sooooo much in their issues. When you kill off major characters in like issue 6-7, it tends to leave you without anywhere to go long term. Books like Harbinger or the original Rai were really better off as limited series, since the style of storytelling just didn't lend itself to 300 issues.
You totally nailed the comics collapse and explained it better than most (including myself). I always tell people 'if you think something will be valuable in the future, it won't be, because I guarantee you're not the only person who thinks that'.
That's it right there. Ephemera is the key. Collect what no one else is collecting and keep your fingers crossed. Because on top of everything else, it's half luck too! There's NO telling what people are going to be into in 80 man. No way!
Thank you so much for the kind words and for checking this out. I know it wasn't short and I really appreciate you not only checking it out but taking the time to leave a comment. It helps out the channel a ton and it puts a big old smile on this jerk's face to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos - so thanks again!
Ngl thats why i stopped collecting modern vidya games day one patches, no game on the game disc, digital and physical releases, re releases, etc
I remember when my favourite LCS went under in ‘95 or ‘96, and I was buying Valiant back issues for 35 CENTS apiece, just shocked when they had be 5-30$ books a year before.
Great job on this one, dude! Thank you!
thats sad. Whats crazy is my comic shop, which ive been going to since 1994 (born in 89) is still there and it looks EXACTLY the same. Shelves are in the same spots, same tables with boxes under them for back issues, same new comic shelf that damages each of the first issues in the stack, same everything lol. I love it, and this may sound crazy but it literally smells the same lol For some reason the place is always packed, and its a tiny place. Even before the pandemic it was packed and it still is. Its an anamoly, either that or i just live in a hot bed of comic fandom.
‘I missed it’ is a chorus right now with some of us. I remember wanting Deathmate so badly. Image’s superior art paired with Valiant’s writing was gold, printing money. I can’t remember anything about it and I remember being supremely disappointed. Let’s get into it!
RUclips bombed the premiere and I had to stop it because no one could watch it and then set it to public so you missed about 15 minutes of waiting and being ticked off at RUclips for screwing up yet ANOTHER premiere, despite this being up for more then 24 hours it was "processing" and wouldn't let people watch live. Meh, at least you all got to see it - that's what matters!
I hope you enjoy - if you make it through pop back in and let me know what you thought. This was a real labor of love and took a LONG time to put together. Pretty happy with how this came out despite it being a little rough here and there I think it's a pretty good video, so lemme know what YOU think! Thanks as always for leaving a comment, you know how much it helps out the channel and as always, I super appreciate it!
I thought Black was pretty fun, and as I recall it was some kind of tower heist. Red had some of the most heinous art I had ever witnessed.
I love rob liefelds take on his podcast where he just rambles on how "i just wanted to draw some valiant guys, Jim was the one who pushed it too far" lol
And he thinks it's just all funny and nothing big, and never gets upset. I thought that was actually really cool the first time I listened to it. I was like, oh man - he didn't get upset they took this idea and he could have done something but now someone else is takign credit cool. And by the end I was like, you wait - you WHAT!?! You held the pages hostage? Dave Olbrich hit me up and reminded me of something which I'd never even factored into the equation. Inking. By inking Liefeld's pages Layton would have been entitled to some of the original art and Liefeld knew how much that stuff was worth so he was gonna hold on to as much of it as he could and I think that's the big factor that we DIDN'T hear about here or in the podcast...
I worked at Valiant during the Bob Layton era (My name is seen in your video.) I got paid a weekly paycheck for inking backgrounds. I did have some success working at Marvel and DC (Most known for Aquaman during the hook hand/ Peter David/ Jim Califiore run!) Marvel was mostly miscellaneous work in the X-men office, some Ironman, other little things. Mostly I've worked on small indie books now producing some of my own comics. ...Look for RETRO fall/ winter 2022! :)
That's awesome! Thanks so much for checking this out and taking time to share details. I found out just after the release from a few of you ex-Valiant employees that you were paid - apparently a disgruntled employee that got fired is the one responsible for causing the false rumors of people not getting paid though sadly I didn't know this until AFTER the video was released. I'd love to learn more about how Valiant operated and what the climate was like there during the rise and fall of Shooter - plus, you can't just tease with "indie books"! Details sir! Details, haha. I'd love to check out some more of your work and if there's anything I can do to help spread the word about the upcoming RETRO release please let me know always looking for new good books that aren't put out by Marvel and DC man! Congrats on sticking with this biz for so long, it's a freakin' nightmare to navigate but filled with some of the most interesting and kind people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.
@@JerkComic I had a day job before working in comics, so when I switched working in indies made more sense. There are great people working in comics, and I just want to succeed more so I can shine a light on more of them! I'll email you and we can strike up more of a conversation but here's a few books. Worked on Razor, Valentine, Shadowflame, Hawk of New York, Golly, Talon, THEE 100s Anthology, ...so much more but also bits here and there. Frankly I've forgotten more then I remember or have kept track of. I'd love to tell you about my book RETRO when its done. Thanks so much for responding and being a good part of the comic community!!
@@PeterPalmiottiyou related to Jimmy?
@@PeterPalmiottiI have your Hawk of New York issue.
Randy Bishop is a high school palmed mine.
It’s good to see you guys doing what you love.
@@yellowmartian gotta be
so the reason Jim Lee had association with Steve Massarsky at all at the time was the fact he hooked him up with U2 tickets at a seemingly sold out tour since Steve was also a music guy having managed several major artists and bands leading up to this point and one of the reasons Aerosmith was in Shadowman comic. Jim knew Steve had connection he simply didn't have at the time. So listening to him about the Deathmate crossover really made sense at the time.
And THIS is why I love making these videos! I knew he was an entertainment guy, and he was likely getting kick backs from the licensing money he was getting from somewhat questionable places - this makes a LOT of sense though! That's crazy. Did Lee or Massarsky, and for love of all that's holy RIP STEVE not Jim, say that in an interview? I never saw mention of how they had gotten hooked up and that's just hilarious. There are so many weird little moments like that in Lee's career it's kinda strange. Doing another one involving Jack Kirby and Jim Lee right now actually, haha
@@JerkComic the story is. Steve Massarsky asked Jim Lee for a Cover to one of there books. Jim told him he would IF he could do this one thing. U2 tickets to a sold out Los Angeles show that was NOW impossible to get into. Steve did it and that's why Hard Corps #1 has a wraparound Jim Lee cover art.
I've been saving this for a while and it didn't disappoint. An excellent and wide-ranging deep-dive into a huge chunk of the 90s comic bubble
Thanks so much! I wish I would have held off on doing this just a while as it should be expanded upon in a few regards to better tell the story. I've been thinking of going back and doing a dedicated Valiant multi-parter that goes more into detail and really tells the story leading to this big crossover and Shooter's dismissal and then implosion. I also REALLY dislike the fact that I messed up the info about Knob Row. There were SO MANY interviews and articles that said they were unpaid, this however was a rumor started by an ex-KR member and I dislike I repeated his vitriol here. I'm happy with the info and stoked you enjoyed it but I always feel like I want to come back and expand this to do it a little more justice... what do YOU think? Would you watch an expanded edition of this that went into the details and facets of Valiant in greater detail leading up to all of this especially? Either way, thank you so much for not just taking time to watch this but leave a comment as well - helps out the channel more than you know!
I appreciated this video. I started collecting in the 80s and was around for this period. I really enjoyed Valiant, Defiant, and Dark Horse's Comics Greatest World. Absent the speculator boom, I think these independent comic lines could have found footing and thrived.
I don't know if some of them would have HAPPENED without the boom. Dark Horse in particular, but I don't know. It might be a situation like today where they would be more easily be able to cohabitate on shelves with Marvel and DC etc stuff, or people wouldn't have given a toss. A lot of companies had tried this before and Image were the ones who gave it any real lasting power. Still hard to believe they're around all these years later honestly. There were some great little pop ups and indie imprints from this period that's for sure, and even if they didn't last - at least we got to see 'em for a little while, right?
Thanks so much for checking this out btw, I know it wasn't short and I really appreciate you not only takign the time to watch it but leave a comment when you were done. It means a lot and it really helps out the channel - so thanks again!
Remember Malibu Comics?
And ya, I'm still surprised to this day that Image is still around to this day and not another casualty of the era. Me and my comic reading friends at the time were betting that they wouldn't last until 2000 with all the shit they were pulling. Tho Image now I believe it's a totally different company then it was back then so I guess in a way we were correct, in that at least THAT iteration of Image is dead, and we can call what's there now as Image 2.0.
Image is difficult to judge as a "whole". Really it's a bunch of independent people under a banner doing stuff to a pretty large extent until very recently. That I think is Image 2.0 - maybe just prior to Kirkman on. Before that Valentino was trying to unite the tribes that his protege came in and tried to do the same and they handed stuff off because it was a real uphill battle. Kirkman was a trencher you know? People kind of united and listened to him for some reason and he was able to really turn that company around along with Valentino imho. Valentino was integral in that step to saying, hey, "everyone isn't going to like EVERY book. We need to start putting out GOOD books and worry about hooking loyal readers who will stick with a book". That's the motto that got them where they are today and how they managed to keep the doors open. That being said, as a kid who remembers the day the Image series launched - got a Spawn 1st Day,, Maxx 1st - I mean I was down, I NEVER thought I would be holding them heads and tails above Marvel and DC. They put out some great stuff. Mind you a lot of crap. but some great stuff these days and it's been pretty incredible to watch the evolution of that company as separate parts to a cohesive entity over the past 30 years.
Also one thing I don't think you mentioned, a huge turn off at least for me I remember, was the ever-growing price tag of the comic book. So everything you mentioned, plus the ever-increasing price tag for bait and switch covers vs interior art and declining quality of stories, along with the fact that a lot of us were getting older and heading off to college, pursuing more adult oriented hobbies, ones that weren't instant Kryptonite to a female, all helped Usher in that era's destruction.
Rising book prices were in large part not only due to paper but because of declining sales and a few people trying to manipulate the market and Marvel in particular. It was a strange and horrible time, haha. I remember this was around the time when comics weren't exactly the kiss of death for women in the college town where I lived but the aging out of a generation definitely played a big part too that's for sure.
Thanks so much for checking this out, means a lot to know people are actually watching these videos and I seriously appreciate you taking time to leave a comment, means a lot and helps out the channel more than you know
Wow sorry I missed this one...I’m a 80’s 90’s reader...totally into this great job....
Don't worry - RUclips still hasn't finished processing my video over 24 hours later and the Premiere crashed and we lost chat with zero video and I had to set it to public... so yeah, you didn't miss much, haha! Thank you so much for checking this out. I'm stoked you enjoyed it and I really appreciate you not only checking it out, but taking the time to leave a comment. Not only does it really help out the channel but it puts a big old smile on this jerk's face knowing people actually watch these and enjoy them. PS have no fear, plenty more 90s goodness coming soon!
DEATHMATE BLACK was so touching on the first read... when everyone i know in Image died just so the Gen13 would live... and here was my first love for Fairchild grow!
I never got around to reading most of this as I worked at a shop and there was so much time in between issues I kept forgetting what was happening even though it wasn't supposed to really tie together or be a continuous story I didn't know that at the time haha. Gen 13 always had some hellaciously fun art that's for sure!
This is great. FAR more informative - in terms of presenting the back-stories - than I was expecting.
The information is presented at the right pace, and all (what I imagine is information pulled from many disparate sources) is a cohesive whole.
Well done mate :)
Cheers for the great effort and very good work
"LiL'JpD."
Thank you so much! I really try and go above and beyond to put stuff into perspective. Some people get super annoyed 5 minutes in because I'm not talking about Liefeld at all even, haha. I felt like it all needed to be put into perspective and I just kind of try and let the subject guide me on how macro or micro I look at something. Really pleased to hear you enjoyed this one, was super fun to work on even if I did mess up a few names along the way, ugh. Really appreciate you taking the time to leave such a kind comment btw - not only does it seriously put a smile on this jerk's face but it helps out the channel more than you know - so thanks again!
@@JerkComic hey, no problem mate: I leave comments just for those reasons - to let the creator know that what they did was at an excellent level; and, to hopefully help out the creator and channel. All you guys say "leave a comment", and so - for the best of you - I comment.
Sometimes; what I want to comment on is already said, so I just leave anything to up your numbers!
To finish: all your videos are very well done. The length and depth of your videos is beyond anything else I've found on RUclips.
Just keep working as hard as you can, and the rewards will be there for you. That's my mantra.
You keep putting out the vids, and I'll keep liking and commenting :)
PS: I was annoyed to hear about people "picking" on you. As you rightly said (I think it was in the Maxx vids): hateful feelings, words and actions, start from within, and are a reflection of the rot residing inside the "person" and are borne in the broken bully - and all you have to remember is: "I'm the best, so f*&k 'em". We all should be our best and favourite person. You HAVE to be.
Keep up the good mate :)
"LiL'JpD."
Hello again Uncle Jerk.
I posted the following on your "Hero's Illustrated #1" video aswell - but I thought it best to go for a two-pronged approach, in hopes you can kindly furnish me with some into to help me get started in this RUclips game. :)
Question: what do I need to do RUclips magazine read-thrus like this? What camera and setup? I ask, because I want to begin to do read-thrus of an now defunct English Skateboarding Magazine. I would like to begin by doing it with my cameraphone at first - or, if you can recommend a beginners cam and setup? I would really appreciate it. It's too specific a thing to Google: " how do I go about shooting top-down videos" isnt going to give me anything! Im also curious as to how you mount the camera aswell.
Any and all info would be appreciated Uncle Jerk!
Thanks in advance,
"LiL'JpD."
@@joedent3323 going to respond to the other comment as it's on its own and I can keep track easier that way. Please post follow up questions as separate posts, I'll make sure to approve them if need be. I get so many comments I can only really keep up with the ones I've not responded to yet so that will make sure I see your other quotations should you have any!
Gah. The ninties were crazy times for comics. Especially living thru it.
You should have worked at a shop. Woof. Man them were some crazay days sir - crahazay. Not lying about those weird dudes in suits that would come in. I'd never seen that many books n my life. I mean legit, they would order MORE than the entire store did for that week in their personal shipments. And then they started getting MTG cards which we sold there back in the Alpha and Beta days and was just really catching on. What a wild ride, haha
I remember when Superman #75 was released and the small comic shop I went to had a block long line waiting to get it. I pre-ordered the Collector's edition (black polybag) and opened it in the store. Worth it from the looks alone.
Fantastic work again, Jerk. These deep dives are invaluable, so please take as long as you need on them.
It's unfair the premier malfunctioned on you. This channel deserves better from YT.
I get those numbers up, a little money to pay them for stuff, I think that's what they want. Me to pay for promotion - which ain't in the budget. I'm bummed about the premiere, but hey - at least once I set it to public you all could see it! That's what REALLY matters. I'm so happy you enjoy, and I am gonna be trying to go one of these monsters and then a 35-45 minute mini doc every month and then get some weekly easy stuff in place that still offers the level of quality that I think people are coming to expect of the channel. With the Patreon page going it really gives me an impetus to work and interact more with people about the channel, so I'm trying to get a schedule and stick to it. (as I post this on a video that was a day late and didn't premiere right, lmao)
This is an amazing deep dive Uncle! Full documentary length! You are documenting comics history and these videos will have a very long tail. Keep up the amazing workl
@@jarod3371 thanks so much! I hope people still enjoy this as much in a year as they do now, lot of time and effort went into this and it is always incredibly humbling to hear such kind words. Really appreciate you watching this and taking time to comment. Mean a lot and helps out the channel a ton.
Dude I recently discovered your channel and man this is some heavily researched stuff. I love it.
Thanks. I really try and go above and beyond. I've always loved comics but never found exactly what I was looking for as coverage on a lot of stuff. Really appreciate you checking this stuff out as well as the kind words AND leaving a comment man! Helps out the channel more than you know. Also recognize your name and SERIOUSLY appreciate you signing up for Patreon - every Patron helps this channel take one more step towards being what I DO for a living. Thanks again and again man
@@JerkComic dude glad to do it… I’ve been eating up everything your channel has while drawing my book. I was huge into comics as a kid and followed everyone to Image… fell off in later years but watching Invincible kicked me back into it again. Decided to make a book and pitch to Image lol
@@flashfreakmx on spec? First, good luck. Second when you finish it let me see and know and if it's good I'll hype it for you man. Independent creators are my love and the life blood of this industry. Blessed be the creators! And seriously can't thank you enough. Means a lot that you'd support the channel man!
Another great video...I was hesitant to watch when I saw the length but I have to say totally worth it! Thank you and keep up the good work.
Thanks so much - I know it wasn't short, but glad to hear it was worth the time investment. This has been a LONG time in the works and I think it's the direction I want to take the channel in honestly. These longer form videos are much more attuned to what I want to be doing and seeing people's reaction has been incredibly humbling. Thanks so much for checking this out again, and I can't thank you enough for takign the time to leave a comment as always man. It helps out the channel a ton, and means more to me than you know!
Love these deep-dive videos. Keep up the fantastic work!
Thanks so much! You keep watching 'em and I'll keep making 'em. I really appreciate you taking the time to not only make it through this behemoth but to leave a comment, it helps out the channel a ton and I super appreciate it. Thanks again, means a lot to know people are actually watching these and enjoying them, haha
@@JerkComic you are welcome; it was totally worth the time :)
Happy to hear it and I really do appreciate it man, means a lot and helps out the channel a ton
Back in the day, I was a HUGE Valiant fan! I used to write letters to every book every month just to let them know how much I loved their stuff. I'll never forget when Deathmate was announced sending them a letter stating it was the worst mistake they could have made by hitching their trailer to Image. Sadly, I was right.
A lot of us were like almost yelling that at the solicits in the LCS when it went down. We all knew what was coming. It was going to blow up in every one's face. We never ordered heavy on it because of the price tag and the fact the owner HATED Image stuff so that helped, but man this series was just the smoke that everyone saw and ran for the hills from. Far from the CAUSE of the crash, but it was the evidence people needed and things sure got nasty not long after.
Thanks so much for checking this out btw! I super appreciate you not only taking the time to watch this monster, but leave a comment when you were done! Not only does it help out the channel a ton but it puts a big old smile on this Jerk's face to know people are actually watching and enjoying these uploads - so thank you again!
@@JerkComic Yeah, Deathmate definitely didn't cause the comic book crash. But it was certainly a symptom. The way every company was flooding the shelves with pure drek just turned off the people that were collecting for fun. And the investors, well, it was kind of fun to see it blow up in their faces. There was this one guy that worked at the LCS. And he worked for COMICS! The sleazy manager told him that the comics would be worth more than his measly paycheck by far! In early '95, I was doing a flea market business and this dude shows up to me trying to sell his collection. I offered to buy his Rai #0 just because I had already sold mine. And when I offered him five bucks, he pitched a fit! "That book is only going to get more valuable over time!" So I show him the Wizard from that month and you could see his eyes bug out. I'm like: "Hey, I know I can't sell this book, so I'm offering to buy it for myself. But ten bucks is top prices and I'm not paying that. Unless you want to check back later and I'll see if I sell enough to bother." I didn't and he lurked around all day getting on my nerves and messing up my sales. But, it was kind of funny to see the sleaze practices come back to bite these guys in the butt.
People today complain about how bad comics suck and how overpriced they are. But I would much rather pay five bucks for a Batman book today than a Deathmate book from back in the day! Honestly, I still buy a ton of comics from a lot of different publishers. And I'm rarely disappointed. The art back then might have been somewhat better, but at least the writers of today MOSTLY know how to write. To put it another way, there really is something for everyone on the stands right now. Not just a bunch of Ultimate Warrior knockoffs with guns bigger than their bodies.
@@TheJohno95 your comment about the industry today are so on the mark! With the SubStack announcements and all the change going on in the industry and the books coming from these changes, there really is an amazing amount of genre's and innovation happening in the industry! I am excited to see where it goes.
Reminds me (from memory), of what SF DEBRIS said in his comics history videos: "While the cover gimmicks drenched the whole thing in gasoline, Death Mate had been the thing to light the match."
That's the general perception yes. I would say that's an inaccurate statement, and not just to be obstinate. I would say X-Men, Force and Spider-Man were the gasoline, Deathmate was the smoke that everyone finally saw coming off of the steaming dumpster wreck the market had become. I would LOVE to see how many people were stuck with copies of X-Men 1 vs Deathmate Red because I'm gonna step out on a limb having worked at a shop where at one point Diamond legitimately gave UP on even picking up the copies for return and we're talking thousands of books. Deathmate was the final spasm of a drowning market over run by speculators and card collectors/the kids that saw this behavior and thought it was somehow normal. And that I think is the nastiest fallout of all this. The mentality that so many of these kids, many of whom have begun to dabble again due to the MCU and comic media, are bringing with them is the SAME thing we saw back in the 90s. And again, the companies are doing nothing but encouraging it. Did we learn nothing, lmao?
Thanks so much for checking this out btw, I hope you enjoyed. I really appreciate you not only taking the time to check it out but leave a comment as well! It really helps out the channel and puts a smile on my face to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos. So thanks again!
that tour came through my town and hit a shop. lee, liefield, a few valiant guys, a line down the street. it was exciting.
Exciting and extremely expensive! The thing that liefeld And none of the other image guys want to tell you about is the fact that valiant is the one who footed the bill for that entire thing. It actually is 1 of the big things that ended up bankrupting the company and it's kind of sad looking back on it. It was a pretty pathetic attempt at gaining or like garnering attention away from these image guys teaming up with them probably wasn't the best idea to begin with but when you got somebody like Jim Lee giving you the go ahead you what are you gonna do?
5:29 Stan Lee had to be thinking something along the lines of “Get this creepy f***er away from me”😂😂😂
That look in Shooter's eyes man... it's like, I don't know - I guess Gary Busey? That's about the only other level of nuts that I can think of without talking about like Manson or someone lmao. I love that "evil" black and white pic of him too! It's like who in their right mind lets someone take that as one of their shots for your publisher? He looks straight up demon, hahahaha
@@JerkComic 😂😂 couldn’t have said it better myself! Thank you for the fantastic video👍👍👍
@@SlapNuts4Life thank you so much for checking it out! Glad you're enjoying and sorry the premiere went down, no clue what happened.
Such a great recap of what happened with Deathmate. To this day, I couldn't tell you what the crossover was even about and I own all the comics.
And now you know WHY, haha. I seriously appreciate you taking the time to check this one out, I know it was NOT short. The fact you took the time to leave a comment when you were done means the world, it helps out the channel more than you know and it puts a big old smile on this jerk's face to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos. Thanks again and glad this one was worth the wait, it's been a long time in the works and it had a lot of hype so I was worried it wouldn't live up to expectations.
@@JerkComic Definitely, I've been enjoying these comics history recaps and interviews. It makes me feel like I am reading issues of Wizard again just to pick up any bit of comics info I can find. I also remember how hyped I was for Deathmate only to be disappointed when it all finally came out and really began questioning if I wanted to keep collecting comics. I eventually stopped collecting comics and it wasn't until years later that I started reading them again just for fun with no intention of keeping them as collectables.
Also, it is good to see I wasn't the only one to have that same reaction to Rob Liefeld bragging about why he didn't submit his Red book of the series. I just thought they were just being lazy about it, I didn't realize it was all about being super petty.
Another thing I didn't realize at that time was about Image and all their delays, I had heard about how it was hard for them to get talent to submit on time to meet Diamond's scheduling, but I never thought about the founders having no idea what it took to run a comic company and was learning on the fly. It is really amazing that company survived the 90s knowing this.
Anyways, keep it up, this is one of my several comics channels that I love keeping up with.
Fantastic video. Love hearing about this stuff. Glad I'm a patreon supporter. Keep it up JC :)
I super appreciate the support man, it means the world to me! Glad you enjoyed this one. It was NOT an easy one to do but a year down the road I think it turned out well, haha. Thanks again for checking this out, taking the time to leave a comment, AND supporting the channel on Patreon man, means a lot and I super appreciate it all brother!
Fantastic stuff as always. Comic history mixed with the behind the scenes goings on is incredibly enthralling.
Have you ever thought of doing a video on Brian Michael Bendis and his epic run of early 2000’s Marvel? It felt like he was doing every major book, and almost every crossover event (with the exception of Civil War). I don’t think we’ll ever see another dominant company wide run by a single author like that ever again. Could make for some very engaging stuff.
WHEN, not if, WHEN - I find that perfect in, that angle to play at, I'll talk about Bendis. I think we might actually see something along these lines... we're seeing superstar status getting achieved for the first time in a long time with Tynion on DC stuff and then there's the actual contender... Donny Cates. I don't think he'll "write" that many series, but I do NOT put it past Marvel to just hand over the reins and let him go haywire with the entire Marvel U.
Thanks so much for checking this out, sorry the premiere was a bust! No idea why RUclips will let it play as an upload but not a premiere? Yah for having a smaller channel, lmao
@@JerkComic When it comes to Bendis, please do the crime books and superhero books separately.
Fantastic piece of work. Love the fact that there's a channel exploring comic book history.
If you're into comic history you've come to the right place, that's for sure, haha! It's kinda my obsession. Glad you enjoyed this and I hope you find some other stuff on the channel you enjoy as well. I really appreciate you taking the time to not only check out the video but leave a comment as well - helps out the channel and I really love knowing people are actually WATCHING and enjoying these things. They aren't super easy to make so it means a lot to me! Thanks again.
Great video. One thing that most people fail to notice is that the DEATHMATE crossover was obviously the template for Marvel's successful AGE OF APOCALYPSE. The DEATHMATE prologue was obviously where the X-Men Alpha idea came from and the DEATHMATE Epilogue was obviously the template for X-Men Omega. The futuristic violent dystopia timeline of the DEATHMATE universe with heroes turned into villains and villains turned into heroes is the same premise seen in AGE OF APOCALYPSE.
Erik Larsen is an absolute prince of a man and probably the most transparent and forthright professional in the industry.
Lotta people would beef with this but I think that's because Larsen is so transparent and he can piss people off. He's done and said some stuff I can't necessarily get behind all the time but man, I love Larsen and getting to talk with Valentino about him was pretty cool, haha. That's how he is with fans and in the boardroom I guess
@@JerkComic ya Jim Valentino is a real great guy too. I had a meeting with him years ago. For the life of me I can't remember why but Walter Koenig from Star Trek was also there. It was surreal. I have some funny pictures from that.
I was right in the middle of this, huge valiant and Image fan at the time, my expectations were through the roof for this too bad they had all these problems! Loved your video, thank you!
Thanks so much for checking this out, really means a lot. I too was just at the age where a lot of my friends were really excited about this. I had a nasty feeling in the pit of my stomach by this time, but I was working at a shop a lot of the time so I think I saw a lot more of this coming than other kids my age did, not just from the books - but just word around the sewing circle, you know? I went in to totally myth bust this one, not going to lie. I KNEW it couldn't be true. There was NO WAY this actually happened the way people said it did. Boy was I in for a surprise, haha!
Really appreciate you taking the time to check this out, means a lot to me to know people are actually watching these monsters and enjoying them - plus it helps out the channel a ton! Thanks again, means a lot.
@@JerkComic you’re an awesome story teller, this was another great video!
Well I'm a storyteller I'll give you that! Can't shut me up without a bullet, lmao. Just glad you enjoyed and again, really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel!
This was a great history lesson on valiant that I never knew. Thanks and you've convinced me to subscribe
Thanks so much! I made a few goofs in here, like they DID pay people in Gutter Row, that was a lie started by a disgruntled ex-employee apparently, but it was everywhere and event he people who worked there that corrected me understood why I thought that considering how vocal he was. I would love to actually go back and really expand this and talk about Shooter and what was going on with Valiant on the inside in more detail but I've got so much other stuff... so tempting though as this is a story I think is yet to be told the way it SHOULD be.
I love your passion for each subject you take on. Each video is an in depth documentary that had to of been exhaustively researched. You also seem to pick subjects that aren't as popular but still very interesting. Thanks for the great content!
Thank YOU for checking it out! I definitely have weird taste so it's always nice when people take the time to check out these monster videos and enjoy them despite not being inordinately tied to anything in them - means a lot. Really appreciate you not only taking the time to watch this, but leaving a comment when you were done btw - helps out the channel more than you know!
You're welcome!
Jim Shooter: Never met him but his love for and his creativity in the comics industry cannot be undermined due to personal problems with how he managed Marvel as EiC or his strong creative opinions with other comics creators. Love what he did for creators rights at Marvel, unprecedented at the time. AGL
Shooter definitely loves comics and it's been super cool seeing him kind of repair his relationship with fans over the last decade or so doing shows and meeting people as he is a super cool guy to talk with in most cases and just full of stories and stuff. As per his "unprecedented" moves at EIC, well I'll just respectfully disagree. Shooter signed his name to some stuff but he was not only involved with enough backstabbing and outright lies concerning Kirby and his alleged "lawsuits" against Marvel but to be very, very clear - not only was the art return spurred on my Kirby, but Marvel was simply playing catch up with DC who had been returning art regularly since the early 70s. Shooter is also responsible for allowing the largest known theft of original Marvel art that the company has ever admitted too simply because he wasn't happy with where the art was being stored and insisted that it be moved to his office to keep it safe... Shooter and Marvel is a poor thing to bring up in Valiant's case imho - Shooter was the heart and the brains of that company and the moment they pushed him out the door was the moment they pushed the self destruct button on that company. He WAS Valiant and never should have been done dirty like that... guess Karma can be a real b sometimes though.
I was buying all of the Image and Valiant during those days and appreciated Valiant more for the stories and artwork that wasn't so over the top. I have a few of those Tour Books and I can't recall how I got them.
Yeah me too. I got deathmate and unity. Turok an the eternal warrior were my favorites. Too bad their not worth anything these days, even the pre unity stuff. At least it's a good read.
Great video! I recently picked up the Deathmate series. Not because I thought it was good, but just for nostalgia lol
I think that's about the only reason MOST people pick it up. In retrospect there were worse things, but it just got so stigmatized and there was so much baggage there were shops that wouldn't even touch it, like it was carrying the plague or something for years, haha!
Thanks for checking this out hope you enjoyed! Really appreciate you taking the time to leave comment, helps out the channel a ton!
I’m going to have to mention that comics were dreaming of live action adaptations by this point. By the dawn of the ‘90s, DC had “dreamed of,” four Superman films, a Swamp Thing picture, a Supergirl flick and a Batman movie. Meanwhile, Mirage had an “underground” film of their own.
I was more meaning an expansive "universe" of characters like the X-Men or Marvel Cinematic Universes. Sorry for the wording, hope it didn't detract too much from the video.
I'm at the 22:00 mark and this is one of the best RUclips videos I've seen. Well done
Well thank you so much! I think there's a lot about this that I would change at this point, there's some stuff I did get wrong (interns WERE paid on the row) and a few other little things but mostly happy with how this came together. Really happy you enjoyed this as it's the direction I took the channel in and played a big part in the way that I create content these days
Rare for me to make it all the way through a feature length youtube video. Kudos.
Thanks so much. I know this was a long one but I'm pretty darned happy with how it turned out. I'm so happy you not only liked it, but took the time to leave a comment. I super appreciate it man! It helps out smaller channels like this one a ton and it also puts a smile on this jerk's face knowing people actually watch and enjoy these videos I make.
Thanks again!
Really enjoyed the coverage of the Deathmate situation, especially as someone just getting into Valiant
Thanks, there were a few small goofs in this one, but I was pretty happy with how it turned out over all for sure. Glad you enjoyed it and I seriously appreciate you not only taking the time to check it out, but leave a comment when you were done as well. Not only does it seriously put a smile on this jerk's face to know people are actually watching these videos I produce, but it helps out the channel more than you know, so thanks again and again!
I was a 90s sucker that bought so many Image comics that I would up giving away for free. I never thought they would make me millions but it was exciting to see people like comics after years of being a nerd was liked something people thought was crap.
I remember being so conflicted as a kid helping at the LCS. On one hand, it was awesome I got half of the kids in my class into the Maxx because they would just stare at the art and their tiny minds would melt. On top of that, I stopped getting into regular fights because I read comics - never dealt well with being called names and ended up socking a LOT of kids with a LOT of stuff that happened to be in arm's reach when they stupidly decided to talk some smack. It was so nice to have those same kids asking me about this stuff and genuinely being interested in the characters. When I showed up to work and there were a few of these kids parents, all lawyers and doctors, there with their kids buying copies of all these polybagged and gimmick covers to sell later I knew it was bad though. Never wanted to believe it would get THIS bad, but man - things have just never quite bounced back imho
Thanks so much for checking this out. I seriously appreciate you not only taking the time to watch this behemoth, but leave a comment when you were done. It helps out the channel immensely, and it means the world to me to know people re actually watching and enjoying these videos - so thank you again!
@@JerkComic No problem, thanks for the effort and info. learned lots of behind the scenes stuff I didn't know. Keep up the good work.
I loved this, dude - killer work! Also, I got my shirt in the mail a couple days ago and it's fantastic in person! Keep up the great work!
First off, thank you so much for supporting the channel - it means a lot and I can't tell you how much I sincerely appreciate it! So happy you liked the shirt in person. I've been absolutely blessed to get some of the most insane designs so far, I can't wait to finally be able afford one of the Thomas Perkins shirts this week myself, haha.
Second. Thank you so much for taking the time to check this out. I know this one was not short and I seriously appreciate you not only taking the time to make it through this behemoth but to leave a comment when you were finished. It really helps out the channel, and as always I super appreciate the support my friend! This has been a long time in the making so I'm happy it was worth the wait and thanks again.
If you think about it, history is repeating because Marvel and DC are not paying attention to what the real comic lovers want and still do gimmicks.
I had a guy who owns a shop who actually spoke up about this in the comment section. I don't think gimmicks and ratio variants are what's killing the industry this time. I honestly think it's a mixture of really bad speculation like in the 90s, but more importantly - there's no more newsstand. The problem isn't that the industry is trying to NOT give readers what they want, it's that they're getting totally mixed up trying to give loyal readers what they want, which is hard line continuity and grim realism with a rigid structure following mostly white male characters. And that's cool. But the industry is getting tripped up because they keep putting out all these "next gen" characters. Miles Morales and Gwen Stacy both work, but for every one of them you get 10 characters like Safespace and Snowflake and I just find even the NAMES of those characters offensive. The industry has fallen into a rut pandering to long time fans and has done nothing for decades to bring in new readers. As sales continue to decline and they try to cash in on the success of the films they've quickly learned that kids just aren't interested. The real root of this? The newsstand. The spinner rack. That's the missing part of the equation where so many of us found and fell in love with out first comics. Yeah you eventually end up at your LCS, or a few of them, but it starts with that drugstore spinner, or the rack at the local grocery store. That's not a thing any more - so Marvel especially now thinks that pandering in some really insulting ways in my opinion is the way to bring in new readers and I think they're dead wrong. If you want to learn more about this and mine as well as Darwyn Cooke's feelings, check out the Real Reason Darwyn Cooke Won't Work For Marvel.
Thanks so much for checking this out btw, means a lot to know that people are actually watching, and hopefully enjoying them. I spent the better part of a year researching this one so it puts a big old smile on this jerk's face to read comments and see this bringing up ideas and starting conversation. Plus, I know this wasn't short so I super appreciate you not only making it through, but also takign the time to leave a comment afterwords. It helps out the channel a ton and I really do appreciate it - so thanks again!
I always appreciate the amount of research you do in your videos. And I finally picked up a corner box shirt.
First off, thank you, and second off, THANK YOU. It really helps out the channel having some small amount of money to throw at research and resources for the channel, can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Plus, you actually watched this behemoth AND took time to leave a comment, gold star sir, haha! Seriously, I really appreciate you taking the time to not only check out the video and leave a comment, but support the channel monetarily as well. It means a lot and hopefully with the help of folks such as yourself I'll be able to make this channel what I do full time before too awfully long...
I didn't quite know what to expect. I was in my 20's and studying art in the early 90's and wasn't aware of most of this. I learned a lot. Thanks for all of your research.
Thank you for checking it out. I know it wasn't short and it means a lot that you not only took the time to watch, but also leave a comment. It helps out the channel a ton and I super appreciate it!
Great content, dude. I’ve really been enjoying learning the behind the scenes stuff. Love how into detail you go.
It's definitely kind of become my thing, haha! I know a lot of people don't need ALL of the details, but lord help me, I do... it's a sickness and I'm just happy that some of you out there seem to be as into as I am, haha. Thanks so much for checking these out and taking time to leave comments, means a lot and helps out the channel more than you know
As a musician pay to play or play for exposure is a blight on the industry
Knob row is the same
Apparently the rumor that KR wasn't paid at all was started by a small group of angry ex-employees. They were in fact paid, maybe not SUPER WELL, but paid at least and gained some good experiences. There's a few comment from former KR members here actually. Sorry for the slight bit of mis-info but even they told me they knew why and that it was a widely "known" misconception that started with these people that got fired.
Liefeld burns every bridge he is given, runs multiple studios in the ground and somehow is able to get more work.
Because people buy it. If people were ACTUALLY as pissed off at Rob LIefeld as so many of them pretend to be his books would stop selling. He would be out of a job. I know it's become this fashionable thing to hate Liefeld, but there's so many GOOD reasons to be upset I don't get the whole, feet backgrounds thing. That's a lot of people. Trash talking the company you're working for on social media and call them a dumpster wreck after having run countless imprints and studios into the ground, though? That takes some dump truck sized balls. Granted, he was RIGHT. Darned near, every single thing that Liefeld took DC to task for has come true. The company is in shambles. It has NO CLUE what it's doing - the publishing wing is getting passed around like a Thai hooker and no one wants to be left holding the ball. I mean, you don't go out and post that on the internet while you're working for them though, haha! That's madness. But what's crazier is - he keeps getting work. His books sell enough, there are enough people still into his work, that his antics don't really matter. I respect a lot of stuff about Liefeld to be very honest but man does he have some gnarly skeletons in the closet.
If he could do 12 issues of 1 project on time that would be great.
You should do an episode on Shooter's rise and fall at Marvel, or better yet comparing Shooter's work at Marvel with Jenette Khan's at DC.
There will be a Shooter episode. Oh yes, there will be a Shooter episode. That is something that will require probably another year or so of research and compiling sources etc. I have to juggle maybe 12 things at once to get stuff done on any kind of timetable and that Shooter series, and yes it's gonna be a few episodes, is going to be a monstrous pain. I have a horse in the race with that one though so I'm trying to be VERY careful with how I do it.
Thanks so much for checking this out btw. I seriously appreciate you not only watching this behemoth but taking the time to leave a comment when you were done. It helps out the channel a ton and it puts a big old smile no my face to know that people are actually watching and enjoying these uploads - so thanks!
Even to this day, people know not to pay Rob Liefeld in advance
After that Brigade debacle I legit think EVERYONE knows not to pay him in advance... (shots fired)
Just incredible content as always. Thanks for the work you put in for this!
Wouldn't mean a thing without people to check it out! Really appreciate you taking the time to not only watch this monster but leave a comment as well man, as always really appreciate the support and it helps out the channel a ton. This was a tough one to work on, but I think it turned out pretty well - glad to see people are enjoying it. Thanks again for checking this out and I super appreciate you takign the time to leave a comment, helps out more than you know.
You keep impressing with the rich details. I also like listening to you, so it doesnt even matter that the Videos are so long. Great work!
Yeah I know this was a beast, really appreciate you taking the time to make it through this and leave a comment. Especially such a nice one. Means a lot to know people are checking these out and it helps out the channel a ton - so thanks again!
Weird thought, but if it weren’t for the “speculators” all those gimmicks were cool as shit. I love holofoil covers, variants, glow in the dark, and so on.
God knows I love a good gimmick cover myself. I won't lie. I collect them out of nostalgia and for laughs in a lot of cases. There was some great stuff, like the Age of Apocalypse Holofoil, and a lot of REALLY bad stuff, like the Eclipso stone. I think it will always get a pass for me as that Mark Texeira Ghost Rider 15 Glow In The Dark cover is still one of the coolest things I've ever seen, haha!
Thanks for checking this out. I hope you enjoyed and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment helps out the channel a ton and it's always nice to know people are actually watching these and enjoying them!
@@JerkComic 💯
Love your channel. It’s something I look forward to right alongside Strange Brain Parts, Comic Tropes, and Cartoonist Kayfabe.
Well considering I follow every one of those channels and think they're absolutely incredible, I'll take it, haha! Really appreciate the kind words and you taking the time to not only check this out but leave a comment man. Helps out smaller channels like this one more than you know!
My boy had an LCS that got big in the 80s, even bigger in the early 90s, then flat broke by 1999. He threw all his inventory into a warehouse he owned, about 2000 long boxes, thinking that maybe in 20 years they'd be worth something. He tried selling them off piecemeal the last few years, but he wasn't really making enough to warrant the hassle. So, when he started building his new house in 2018, he used all those comics as insulation. All you have to do is dip the book or stacks of books in a bucket of flame retardant and build sheets out of them, and you've got some pretty decent insulation. His walls, floors and ceilings are packed full of mostly Valiant and Image comics. He uses the rest as fireplace kindling. I was over there last month for a July 4 cookout and he lit the grill with an Archer & Armstrong.
They used to use original art like that back in the day... that makes my skin crawl. This makes me laugh, haha! Thanks for checking this out and sharing, there is SO much toilet paper out there they printed during this period it's legit insane.
I reloaded. Lost the chat but got the video.
Same here... yeah for RUclips! :(
@@JerkComic I was the last in chat with Mrs Wotkins before it booted me out
@@rolandkatsuragi tried casting to my tv and got booted. Lol
God I LOVE how this sounds exactly like whats happening today! Walmart packs and variants, anybody? The connecting thread between 90s and now are the CARD COLLECTORS! Once they set their sights on a market, a downfall is not far behind. DON'T CARD MARKET MY COMICS!
There's a LOT more going on that this, and it's unfair to lay all the blame at card collector's feet. If we as comic collector's had put out foots down and just not bought all those dumb gimmick covers they would have stopped making them. That's why I don't pay more than cover for a new comic these days. Strongly opposed to incentive variants especially, as I agree with you for sure. I had a VERY interesting comment from a guy who runs a shop explaining how it actually wasn't variants and that kind of thing killing the market but a lot of other stuff and I'm hoping to chat with him a little and do a viewer response video where I can address the similarities and dissimilarities with what's going on in the market today.
Thanks so much for checking this out and taking the time to leave a comment, really helps out the channel and it means a lot to me to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos!
I had an eye on Valiant, but was a little late to the party. The one title that didn’t have strict/strong ties to the universe at large was Shadowman. I loved it and Bob Hall’s long unbroken run on the title.
There were a few of them that had vestigial ties at best to the Valiant U at large, but Shadowman is the only OG book that I know of that worked more or less like that. Eternal Warrior (I think is the one I'm thinking of) was also like that to a lesser extent. Some people would show up for an x-over every once in a while, but it was more like they were in HIS book now doing something larger for the Valiant U. Shadowman holds a special place in my heart for the Ditko work so you don't gotta sell me on that one, though!
I got in on the ground floor, and god did I love Valiant when it launched. And then it kept growing and I couldn't afford it. It was the same reason I had burnt on X-Men and Spider-Man and Batman (which had all been mainstays on my consumption to that point). I didn't have money for 4 flipping titles a month. So I said screw it. Sold my stock when the getting was good and regret it every day, lmao. Seriously. I'd love to have my collection of Gold Label books back with that note from Bob Layton about the store set up I did and sent a pic in for. There's a lot of mud I can sling at Valiant... and I suppose more or less DID here, but man, I love that early Shooter Valiant-verse. It's still special and I still have mad respect for everyone who stuck with the ups and downs of Valiant turned Acclaim turned Dhinesh, etc ad infinitum.
Thanks as always for checking out the video and taking the time to leave a comment man, means a lot - hope you dug this one, it was a long road to hoe but I think it was worth it in the end.
Thanks so much for this. Like everyone else here (it seems), I also was a Valiant reader growing up, after noticing quite soon that Marvel, DC, and Image’s output didn’t come close to the stories I could pull from the back issue boxes (on the cheap) at most comic shop. So a comic company dedicated to stories over art? Sign me up!
Then… the bottom drops out.
this was a cool video. really informative about that era. as always love your content
Thanks so much! I really appreciate you not only checking it out but takign the time to leave a comment, helps out the channel a ton. It means a lot to know people are actually checking these out and enjoying them, so thanks again!
Very thorough. Good job. However, I don't remember Valiant doing any etched or glow in the dark covers. Chromium, gold and platinum, yes.
At one point, later on admittedly, but they did an etched chromium glow in the dark platinum cover. Quantum and Woody maybe? They marketed it as the most collectible cover ever or something? It was kinda crazy haha. Not like new Valiant with glass and metal covers or Bad Idea with their invisible comics, but that Quantum and Woody cover always made me just tear up with laughter haha
I've never understood why Liefeld even got any work to begin with, much less how he got as popular as he did. He's just awful in every area of the medium. On top of that, he didn't even give a shit enough to get his halfassed work out on time, and it wasn't a secret. So eventually, you have to point the finger at the people that keep hiring the hack.
I can't think of a lot worse artists... but not many that have achieved the level of success he has. The one thing you point out I TOTALLY and one hundred and fifty percent agree with is, you have to look at who the heck is hiring him at a certain point! If he's SUCH a trouble maker, and he is so hard to work with and slow and just problematic in so many ways, why do people keep hiring him? I mean I know the answer... people are STILL buying his books, lord knows WHY, but they are. But you would think at a certain point you'd hit a point of like, I don't know, drawing the line when a guy you hired to do covers is publicly calling your entire company a joke... but hey, what do I know? I'm just a Jerk with a RUclips channel!
Terrific look back at Valiant! Some of the first comics I ever read as a kid. Now Rai, Shadowman and X-O are the only titles left. It's crazy the new owner has done amazing compared to Jim Shooter.
Well Valiant just closed their New York HQ again, and Dinesh was the last guy running the company I know of that received much love or attention and know he's off doing his own Bad Idea thing. I love Valiant fans, and I love early Valiant but I think that Jim Shooter is, was and will always be Valiant. Had they listened to him and kept print runs reasonable and just pulled back a little on the gimmicks, they would have lived like Image through the crash. Marvel might have eventually gobbled them up like Malibu, but at least then they would have made some big bank. As it was everyone just kind of fell into legal limbo and the company sat in litigation for the better part of 20 years. I'm just stoked the characters are back and the universe is kicking again. It's a shame the movie didn't do, and honestly wasn't a little better. I was hoping it would generate some much needed money and interest for Valiant and get them back on their feet as it is definitely nice to see that familiar V looking up at me from the newsstands when I pick up new books every week! Hopefully they're around for a good long time, but I'd say they need to look back at their history and knock it off with the glass covers and crap. Needless gimmicks killed the company once, it's time for good solid art and storytelling again. They lost all the old Dell licenses and those aren't coming back though so it really leaves some of us old dogs who want to see a new Solar series out in the cold either way.
Thanks so much for checking this out btw. I know it wasn't short and I seriously appreciate you not only taking the time to watch this but leave a comment. It helps out the channel more than you know and it really does put a big old smile on this jerk's face!
Manufactured collectibles are worth exactly what you paid for from the store, even after 3-4 decades.
People don't get this concept even now. This is why I do NOT get variants. Yeah you might get lucky once in a while, but man I saw so many of these "collector's item" pieces over the years and I can count on one hand the number of them that are even worth what you paid for them at the time NOW. What is things that today's comic collectors don't want to hear for 500 Alex?
Thanks for checking this out. Hope you enjoyed and I seriously appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment. Not only does it help out the channel a ton, but it means a lot to know people are actually watching and enjoying these videos - so thanks again!
Bob Layton shouldn't have had to go to Rob Liefeld's studio. If he didn't want Layton to ink, he should have said it in the meeting. That is the ridiculous part of the crossover.
You said it not me, haha! And I totally get it, like I want the pages - they're valuable, but holding them hostage? That seems, just like childlike in a lot of ways to me. I really did set out to bust this one and man oh man was it a wild ride haha
super thorough. very informative. i really liked it. i confess, the runtime was a bit tough.
I could have cut 15 minutes out. I am constantly working to be a better writer and editor but as a one man army I must confess sometimes it's an uphill battle against my OCD nature and need to include everything. Glad you made it through, and hopefully some of my 30-40 minute pieces are a little more your speed. Try to do one of them and one of these monsters a month.
Really appreciate the feedback btw, there's no growth without learning and I seriously appreciate you taking the time to not only check this out but also leave a comment. Means a lot and helps out the channel a ton.
@@JerkComic keep doing your thing. i am now a subscriber and will be checking out your past videos.
i edit videos which are usually very short promos for clients, AND i copy edit, constantly shaving down. so i get your challenges.
... it's like that superhero movie that runs 2hr 20min. did we really need that 20min? heh.
carry on, mate.
great stuff.
@@hi-octanecomics404 and the crap thing is if I had an editor I could do that! That's the goal of the Patreon, Membership and Ko-Fi as well as merch money. I want to get a good solid editor who I can give images and video/audio too and trust that if I went in a circle they will catch and clean it. I have severe dyslexia and dysgraphia so my mind unfortunately operates in these uncontrollable loops. I'm learning to minimize the impact it has, but that's why if you as an editor I'm sure will can have seen, I start at a place, circle into the stratosphere and then some how nose dive into the promised specific topic. This isn't a plot to make things longer or anything, it's how the OCD interacts with the learning disabilities that's a mother to mitigate. I also work on a super tight deadline and well, I KNOW you know how that is! Haha. If you have any tips or suggestions you think might help out please let me know, always looking for constructive criticism and feedback-especially ways to improve moving forward! Thanks again for the comments and responses man
@@JerkComic you are definitely thriving despite your challenges. one tip could be a very loose, bullet point script. if you are doing a chronological piece, it's industry standard to do a list of items to touch on. that might help with avoiding looping (i do that too). once you pass on the point, cross it off to avoid running over it again.
editing is a huge part of the work and it's understandable if you don't have time. hell, i can spend a few hours just getting a 3 minute video to how i want it.
cheers.
Loved early Valiant, and was excited about image, but those boys just could not be on time.
yeah, it was like everyone there had an allergy to deadlines apart from Larsen and Valentino. I was never an inordinately huge SD fan, but even as a kid I always appreciated that Larsen held off on the series launch for the ongoing until he was steady on his feet and knew what he was doing. Everyone else started studios and just jumped in, and well, we ALL know where that landed us, haha! I loved early Valiant and didn't know until I was a little older why I felt like it kind of fell apart at a certain point. Looking back it's scary when Jim Shooter is the guy who comes out looking like the good guy in a story like this, haha!
Really appreciate you taking the time to check this out and especially leaving a comment. helps out the channel a ton, plus it's always awesome to know people are actualy watching these monsters and enjoying them, haha! Thanks again, helps out the channel more than you know.
Something about Larson's attitude here makes me upset. He worked at fucking Image and had the balls to call their Valiant bad. Savage Dragon and Spawn were the only good books from Image at that time, but those early issues are rough. Maybe he was still angry at Shooter and didn't understand Valiants goal?
I think he just didn't like them. That's just my take, but that's the feeling I get. That's definitely not the kind of story Larsen has ever been interested in so maybe he just was thinking that's why they're bad. He's an insanely opinionated guy, and while I don't always agree with him, I respect that he speaks his mind and is a no BS kind of dude. Liefeld is the guy who I can not BELIEVE the cahonas on in this one. His cavalier attitude about all of this says a lot about where his head was at during this period imho.
Firstly, thank you for undertaking the Herculean task of attempting to chronicle the birth and death of Valiant Comics on the way to a comprehensive behind-the-scenes account of the Image/Valiant Deathmate debacle. Much appreciated! A couple of good natured notes, however: Marc Silvestri was an Image founder that DID sign on to be a part of the crossover. Next: somewhere along the way, you begin to refer to STEVE Massarsky as JIM. Also-- it wasn't entirely clear from your narration, but it appears that perhaps you are unaware of Massarsky's passing. That would undoubtedly account for any/all lack of interviews from that particular party.
Marc was peripherally involved at best, but yes I did neglect to mention that. I realized in post that I should have mentioned him as I think he did a cover? He let them use his toys but he wasn't a big part, and wasn't very interested in it. If you notice I actually used a few quotes from Silvestri interviews when I was talking about the negative reactions and people's nasty memories of Deathmate. Sadly I'm only one man and sometimes when I'm editing these 30 to 40 page manuscripts things just don't line up perfectly and sometimes, they fall through the cracks. That's what happened with Massarsky. If you notice I call him Steve I think twice? Then, it's Jim, Jim, Jim! I did edit a few of them out, but it sounded so weird I just said screw it at a certain point. Again, as a one man army you have to pick your battles and I figured as long as the last name was right with JIM Lee, JIM Valentino and JIM Shooter all being players maybe people would miss it... or at least be forgiving with me, haha! I hope it wasn't too annoying as I know I cringed every stinking time I heard myself say it in post!
Also, I do know that he passed away. I didn't want to get into it too much as then I'm kind of bashing on a dead guy, you know? I listened to a few interviews with him and he was definitely more of a lawyer than a comic guy so I just left it at that, haha
I really appreciate you checking this out btw. I know it was NOT short and I seriously appreciate you not only making it all the way through, but then takign the time to leave a comment. It really puts a smile on this jerk's face to know people are watching and enjoying these videos and it helps out the channel more than you know! So thanks again, and sorry about Massarsky - I hope that and a few other little flaws didn't detract too much from the larger picture I was attempting to paint!
@@JerkComic No criticism intended! Just thought I'd mention the teeny tiny subjects for clarity and accuracy. You are doing God's work! Many thanks and, by all means, keep 'em coming, won't you?
@@davidtodarello5938 you keep watching em and I'll keep making em! Got a brand new feature length doc on Mario Gully, Erik Larsen and Ant I'm just waiting for the HD version to finish processing and thanks again for the clarification!
Companies should be upfront on print run quantities.
You know when Comichron came around I was really excited because it let you track that stuff. And then I started to remember little things. Like when the shop I volunteered at was supposed to "return" all these extra X-Men and X-Force books and how Diamond never bothered to collect all the boxes. About a 1/4 of them were just sitting there for about a year, then got moved into a back room, then backstock, then cycled into the boxes. Those were listed as returned so the numbers of some of these books may be as much as 15-25% HIGHER than we know, which is just, it's crazy is what it is! And then I started coming across stuff like the Ultimate Fallout 4 Variant story. Those ratio variants were offered up by an unknown seller who made reference to an inordinate amount of extra copies that never entered circulation due to low orders, but were never destroyed and have since started to leak out into the market - this is what kept the prices on that UF4 variant down for so long. The idea that Marvel and other companies have warehouses of undestroyed books is a constant threat to the collectors market - but not the readers. It's a fine line you tread. When you start listening to and catering to COLLECTORS and not READERS, that's when you end up with the spec crash in the 90s. What the comic companies NEED to do is get their crap together, cut about 75% of their titles and start concentrating on putting out good solid books again. And I don't mean this as an insult or anything to anyone who collects, I collect. I also understand that the larger the print numbers on new books the better because the industry is in very real jeopardy of imploding as we know it.
At least now we can track solid numbers to an extent, without having to rely on the word of snake oil salesmen like Wizard anymore. Man did this magazine mess up the industry. I knew when it was outselling most of the major books at the time something had to give. Didn't think it would be the landslide it was though.
@@JerkComic Wow that is really interesting. I totally agree. I mean I wouldn't have purchased extra copies of certain titles had I known how many million were being printed. Yes there are far too many titles out there.
I don't care who likes or dislikes Jim Shooter, he is the king of continuity. The marvel universe lost it's structure once he left. He's the one who insisted that Dark Phoenix be killed because she destroyed an inhabited planet in a 4 panel afterthought. I read this in X men companion interviews . After that, writers were more conservative with the whole "dark side" gimmick. Think about this when watching Wandavision
Jim Shooter is many, many things. And yes, in many ways I think he was a HELL of an editor. In others, I think he was an ego-maniacal prig who tried to impose his will on other because he believed he always knew best during his time at Marvel. He was also a corporate stooge and willing to execute any and all orders given to him without second thought... this included attacking Kirby, slandering his name and outright lying about lawsuits he was involved in as well as being responsible for the largest wholesale theft of original art in Marvel's history. Shooter had a rocky road at Marvel to say the least. He was the god of Valiant though. There he truly was the master of characters and continuity as well as business and you can see how savvy and intelligent he could be during those early years. The minute they pushed him out was the minute they pushed the self-destruct button on the Valiant brand imho.
Great video - Never really knew this story- thanks for posting!
Thank YOU for checking it out. I know this was NOT a short one so I super appreciate you not only taking the time to check it out, but leave a comment when you were done. It helps out the channel a ton and it really does put a smile on this jerk's face to know people are actually watching and enjoying these - so thanks again!
Excellent video. I knew nothing about deathmate, I quit collecting valiant shortly after Jim shooter left and didn’t like Image books at all. Still a great video , heard a couple different stories on why shooter was forced out but this one makes the most sense.
Thanks so much for the kind words! And yeah, I lost interest in Valiant after Shooter left - despite having kind of an axe to grind with the guy even. I didn't even hear about him getting ousted at the time I just knew the books started taking a nosedive in quality in all respects over night and found out a few months later why. Was pretty obvious if you were paying attention to that company they signed their own death warrant with that dumb decision for sure. I wasn't into a single Image book when they came out aside from The Maxx either, haha. I loved that book but I could NOT understand why people were all jazzed on Image at the time, just seemed like a lot of flash to me. I can appreciate a lot of the art now more but still can't get into those early Image titles, haha.
Seriously appreciate you taking time to check this out btw - means a lot and I can't thank you enough for leaving a comment, means a lot and helps out the channel a ton!
Having been creatively involved in comics and film for about 20 years I can tell you that those offers for your work for something "better then pay" happened constantly and still do. Unfortunately the amount of people willing to give that a try ruins the market for people who rightfully expect to be paid.
The story about them not getting paid was apparently started by a disgruntled ex employee and not true. I've had a few people from Valiant get a hold of me but total understood as media outlets run with that to this day. A lot of reprehensible crap went down but apparently that wasn't one of them thankfully
I'm starting to think that Liefeld is the Peter Pocklington of comics.
I only know enough about sports to get myself into trouble if I tried to speak to this analogy I think, lmao. I'm a dyed in the wool nerd, I remember he was the guy who sold Gretzky out of Canada as I was just outside of STL where he eventually landed as his career wound down but outside of that I'm afraid the better part of this is likely lost on me, haha! I appreciate you taking the time to not only check this out but especially leave a comment though. Means a lot and helps out the channel a ton!
Shooter's original concept plan for valiant can be seen having its birth in the epic series spin off of marvel's epic illustrated line where Shooter was overall chief with titles like Six from Sirius Alien Legion and the sisterhood of Steel and more one can almost see that range being the template for valiant a decade later
on the subject of valiant and vid games and WWF well the 'yawning chasm' that caused it all to fail( from my own perspective)1!!was that by 90's comic storytelling had grown up to all intents and purposes comics were directed at the more mature reader anywhere between the 20 somethings and older and vid games and wrestling were relatively both in their infancy and apart from a few game titles these two arenas were aimed at younger people ..children and the reader audience that Shooter had always been aiming for were the ones he had grown up alongside but the audience he ended up with were as unknown and unrelatable to him as he was to them without such a connection between producer and consumer it would never work ..that can be said for most environments
And as for image well they had the art the art could even be said to be too top heavy in relation to the writers even tho image did have them too problem was too much hero worship that's to say that virtually every character creation was modeled on characters that artists had been inspired by or had had a previous working relationship with this I think would of changed in later years as the creators came into their own but unfortunately other issues inhouse caused things to bottom out at image before the company could reach that stage of its evolution
If you are here for the premiere RUclips botched the upload and I had to set this to public, hit me up on Discord for chat!
Ya tried to cast to my tv. Got booted out
Is discord patron only?
@@mrs.wontkins9294 dont think so
What's the discord name?
@@mrs.wontkins9294 I'd like to know too!
I think the Dell, gold key stuff was more silver age, then golden age
Most of their best known characters, superheroes especially were definitely Silver - think Solar was 61/62 or so and a few others, but they had stuff like Turok that started as far back as I think 1956. I would definitely agree with the more, but from what I remember there was a lot more going on there by 56/57 post comics code than I remembered.
That damn news story of Nicholas Cage buying the first appearance of Superman for 1.2 million at an auction was the start of the comic crash of the 90’s.
It was then everyone thought first appearances and number 1’s were all going to be worth the same price in the future.
Even myself at age 14 “knew” picking up every number 1 would buy me a house at the age of 35.
Sound investments.
But none of us took one thing into consideration; books from the past that sold for that price at auctions were incredibly rare.
Back then nobody ever thought to preserve comics they were disposable paper at that time.
When we all collectively understood that.
Everyone stopped buying comics.
I remember hearing that they gave colors instead of numbers for the books
because they knew they would be late/out of order.
Yup. Bob Layton knew Image was gonna blow their deadlines so he insisted on the books having no reading order which necessitated colors to denote the issues since there were no numbers haha. Strange but true
Steve Massarsky married his own investor to keep valiant afloat and then just divorced her after it got bought, the guy is such a conman
Yeah and he apparently was most likely getting kick backs from the licenses and that's why he backed that decision. Found some crazy stuff out from folks in the comment section! Thanks so much for checking this out and I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment really helps out the channel immensely
Valiant was a tightly written universe, its biggest drawback was the art in that it didn’t pop compared to the competition.
Lord I feels you on this one. Their art was so boring. I wasn't even an Image kid and all into art and I thought the colors were so drab as a kid I just couldn't get interested for a long time. Solar is a great series though, and that got me into a bunch more of their first line of stuff and man oh man is their some good stuff in their! I will also say the colors did look very decent when BWS was doing art and I think A&A has aged fairly well actually. Which is why SOMEONE needs to put it back out - anyone! Please...
I had a comic shop years ago after some time I just stop buying image books I refused to sell all that stuff serious collectors never bought that stuff.
Spawn was the only image title people picked up.
The shop I worked at refused to carry Image for a few months... until the sales figures came out. Same with Valiant. By the time they got on board it was too late and even sales on Spawn were crap. Maxx was a solid one for us as the customer base never really dipped but almost everything else fell off hard - Savage Dragon was another one people had on their pulls and never took off actually. God if I had a dollar for every time I had to hear someone complaining about an Image book making it out months later - or never getting released and I'd own a freakin mansion haha!
Ironic what Erik Larsen had to say about valiant considering what his own comic has turned into
Meh, I'll take Savage Dragon over a lot of other books out there right now. It's not the greatest thing on the shelf, but I honestly don't even know how he's still going on that comic all these years later. Guy deserves some serious respect for having a dream, and then sticking to it.
This channel is kinda making me fall in love with comics again.
this is the greatest comment I've read in like FOREVER. this is why I do this - thank you so much, need to read these things from time to time spending as much time and effort as I do on this channel, haha! Thank so much for checking this out and especially taking time to comment, means a lot. PS - The Creature is boss, best Universal Horror series imo!
I like listening to long form discusssions about the inside workings of the world of comics. This was the first video from this channel that I heard and immediately subsribed. I appeciate a RUclips video that I can still listen to without looking at the visuals. Especially one that is long form and well enunciated.
Man I NEED to read comments like this from time to time. Thank you so much. I try to put a LOT of effort into scripting these and making them enjoyable to watch or listen to as a lot of people that are subbed and watch the channel are creators and put this stuff on like a Podcast. Means a lot to read such kind words and I seriously appreciate the sub as well as you taking time to leave a comment, it seriously helps out the channel more than you know... plus, never hurts reading such flattering stuff as I don't get it all the time, haha!
I love how everyone talks about how much money Rob cost shops when he wasn’t on form but forget how much money he made them when he was
This is an exceptionally valid point. I mean, it shouldn't even need to be part of the discussion - anyone who thinks Rob Liefeld of Deathmate in general were the reasons for the implosion are completely out to lunch to the point you're probably not going to be able to talk ANY sense to them - but you're totally right. A few years, and that's like a few SHORT years before, he'd had the highest selling comic in the world and then he helped found Image - I shudder to think how much money that made many retailers at that point. Now they may have squandered it or poorly invested in all that continuing gimmick crap. But if you cashed in chips at the height of that boom? Well, then Liefeld might have ACTUALLY put your kid through college. No joking.
Thanks for checking this out. I always say bashing on Liefeld has become just fashionable at this point so a lot of people do it for no real reason. There's plenty of good ones, but they're NEVER the ones people use or bring up so I really appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment. Plus, it helps out the channel a ton AND it puts a big old smile on my face to know people are actually watching these uploads of mine. Thanks again and hope you enjoyed as your point is one of the major reasons I even made this video. The idea has and always will be preposterously funny that people actually believe that kind of malarkey.
Based on the new information gathered in this video regarding Liefeld's tardiness, it all seems a bit childish. The fact that Liefeld was so displeased with Layton's inking that he admitted to ignoring Layton's calls while waiting for the pages to be inked internally is just unprofessional.
Yes it is. I legit thought for sure I was gonna bust this one... when Jim Shooter is the one who walks away looking like a hero you know something fishy is going on!
This was a great video. Excellent research and narrative. This was the perfect video to put on while I folded laundry!
Glad I could give you something to entertaining while house work, nothing like catching up on all that laundry and learning while you're at it haha. Thanks so much for checking this out and especially leaving a comment, helps out the channel immensely and I really do appreciate it
When you said Ron Perlman I thought you meant a different Ron Perlman!
Haha, everyone does! No, the guy who owned Revlon, not Hellboy, lmao!
Peter David made a joke about the confusion over the names of the two in a comic he wrote.
I feel like if valiant had writing duty and image had art duty it would worked better
I feel like if Valiant had just had control it would have worked better, haha. There was NO way this was coming out on time involving any of the Image founders at the time and everyone involved knew it on some level or another. They couldn't even get their own books from their own studios out in time - though I doubt anyone saw the showdown with Rob coming, lmao
The 90's comic crash is not what is to blame for comics never recovering from the previous high sales, it is, in my opinion, the death of the spinner rack. The spinner rack was found in grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations...etc. When Diamond Distributors switched to only selling to comic shops they effectively cut off the growth/replacement for a future customer base. You have to put comics in places where people frequent so that NEW READERS can find your comics. Also, there has been a lot of wacky doodle stuff happening in comics in the past decade that hasn't helped either, but that is a whole other can of worms.
This is truth. I've spoken about this repeatedly on the channel and it was one of the major reasons I wanted to debunk this Deathmate story and went into the whole speculator's market. If you notice I make reference to the direct market only basically, though not specifically by name, as by 1995 the newsstand had effectively been phased out of marketing strategies and stuff. It was a sad time as that's the place where, as you noted, NEW readers come in. Shooter was keenly aware of new readers and while I think it was a hard sell to effectively loose money by marketing on newsstands but getting new readers.
As per whack stories - I think that's always been the case. Spider-Man or Superman clones anyone? But the big thing is, there's SO many companies putting out books. The market has gotten really diluted and Marvel and DC just never bounced back. I think Image has dealt best with the fluctuation surprisingly, but as you said - that's a whole other can of worms. It all ties back into Darwyn Cooke and his wish that anyone and everyone be able to find and read a comic for them. With books out there for anyone at this point, the problem has now become the books finding the people and I'm not sure how you win that war in this society of attention seeking media saturation honestly.
Good thorough video sir. Thanks.
Thank you so much for checking it out, wouldn't mean much without people to watch it, haha. I seriously appreciate you making it through this monster, I know it wasn't short - and I can't tell you how much I really do appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment. not only does it really help out the channel but it puts a big old smile on my face to know people are actually watching these and enjoying them - so thanks again!
I've never been stoned reading liefeld books. 😂
Never!
Despite his personality, I think Valiant should have listened to Shooter
There's no think about it. Shooter is an insufferable prig when it comes to control and a lot of why he got fired was vanity, thinking Valiant was HIS company, but the other half of it was Massarsky being a complete snake in the freaking grass. If they'd been able to find SOME middle ground, if Shooter had just let them do a couple hundred thousand copies we'd all still be reading Valiant books imho. He knew what was coming, he was braced for the storm, and then he went and got himself ousted from his own company. REPEATEDLY. Dude has some serious ego issues from what I've heard, though a LOT of people are changing their tune about Shooter now that they've aged and don't have professional axes to grind with him as their editor or potential editor. Actually fairly interesting to witness from a historical standpoint considering how much people HATED Shooter all through out the 80s and 90s for the Jack Kirby debacle.
@@JerkComic its really a damn shame that it was their self destructive personalities that not only destroyed the first Valiant, but also brought the comics industry to the brink
Dude, i thought i was gonna listen to this for about 20 minutes but listened to the whole thing!!! Thanks for your hard work.
Wouldn't mean a thing without amazing people such as yourself taking the time to check it out! I know this was a monster, it just kept getting longer, and longer on me! It was like a fisherman's tale, every time I would hit the script it just kept expanding, haha. I'm so happy you enjoyed this and I really appreciate you not only taking the time to make it through this monster, but leave a comment as well! It helps out the channel more than you know and it really puts a smile on my face to know people are checking out these videos and enjoying them. So thanks again and hope you find some other stuff on the channel you enjoy as much as this one, got some crazy stuff in the works!
I don't blame Liefeld, if Layton inked Rob's books it would have devalued his greatest property, which was the styling of his art. Layton would have made him look average. Liefeld was staring in tv commercials at this point and has the expectations of his art to uphold. Layton insisting that he ink Rob's artwork when Rob didn't want him to ink the book made it a pissing match.
Rob didn't need anyone to make himself look average
The might make sense if Liefeld was otherwise on time, professional and reliable.....which given his history, is not the case.
I don't blame him for being reluctant, but knowing that Layton could get the pages done and out on time versus Liefeld and his crew who obviously just couldn't do that means that it was a logistical decision he should have agreed to - and he did, until he didn't feel like it anymore. And I ALSO found out, well I should say simply forgot about while I was working on this, the page split with inkers. I think there's little doubt that Rob wanted his inkers on the pages, but I'm not convinced this was because Layton was average in any sense, but having more to do with having to give him pages if he inked them which Liefeld was not about. Either way, he handled this astoundingly poorly imho and I legit went into this with the express idea of busting up all this myth surrounding his behavior on the series. Oops.
Yeah I think that Layton is definitely on the level when he says that the big reason they wanted him doing inks was to make sure stuff came out on time... which it did on their end at least.