Tbh man I think 5w/kg is definitely more that special number. I feel anyone young with some focus in cycling can reach 4w/kg. 5w/kg is much harder to achieve and requires specific and focused training over a couple of years and a bit of genetic gift. As for the 3 hour marathon mark, I'm not a runner so I'm not sure where it falls in relation to w/kg but I would think it to be more like 4.5w/kg
Yep, based on the other comments, you would be right. Hopefully I'll be able to make a 5W/kg video at some point :) Ideally by next summer although it'll be a tall order for sure.
Agreed. I rode bikes when I was a teenager, and then barely touched them at all for almost 18 years. I picked up riding again in January 2023, squeezing in about 10 hours per week of training, as that is all I had time for as a full-time grad student with a full time job and wife and three kids. By the middle of May I was at 4.0 w/kg. I finished school and was able to increase my ride time to 17-18 hours per week, and by the end of Fall I was 4.5 w/kg. I don't see any reason I couldn't be 5.0 w/kg by the same time next year. I definitely feel like anyone with even a little enthusiasm about riding can reach 4 w/kg pretty easily. It's enough power to feel like you can comfortably hang with most group rides, but that's about it. Even at 4.5 w/kg I only feel like a slightly above average rider, it's not like I could go out and win any big races, I'd be lucky to even hang onto the pack when guys at 5.5+ w/kg are pushing the pace. I think 5.0 w/kg is a solid number that I would be proud of, but I definitely see that as the starting point of competitive fitness.
I second this, as I'm nowhere near the pointy end of any of the races I do....the problem here in Europe is that even at 5W it's unlikely to put me in the mix in any of those fondos here. The power some of those boys in the top 10 put out is insane...@@HydeMyJekyll
I've ran a 2h58 marathon and attained a 4.3 W/kg FTP. Getting to 4.5 W/kg FTP is much harder. 3h marathon was done mostly in Z2 and a few tempos. 4.3 W/kg had to do multiple 4 weeks cycles with intervals, I think I could go higher, but always get burned out. 5W/kg no way, seems out of my genetics range or I'd get too much injuries (knee, back pain...), not that I'm not still trying to get there. Feels like a 5W/kg FTP is equivalent to a 2h30-2h40 marathon and 6W/kg sub 2h15 marathon.
Oh and I've been training for 15 years, I know my limits and very lean although naturally more muscular like lance armstrong (without the crazy genetics). I look at this like 3h marathon equals 5.12 climbing grade equals maybe 4.2W FTP.
it took me good two years to reach that (from around 4.5). And i trained a lot (around 17-22h per week with coach etc). Now Im generally in top 10 in granfondos also with thousands people but it took me some effort.
Thanks for the video! My main focus for racing next year is a 24-hour time trial, so a huge part of determining the winner is just raw power. Of course equipment selection, position refinement, and nutrition play a big role as well, but none of that makes a bit of difference if there isn't enough power to back it up. My training and event calendar is basically "gain more power at any cost" up until it's time to begin final race preparations. 5.0 w/kg is about the minimum to be competitive for a spot on the podium, with the winners typically much higher.
wow that's quite the challenge..... good luck with that and keep checking in with updates please! And I'll do the same via the channel. 5W/kg all around :)
For me 4w/kg took about 6 months of riding 10 hours per week. 4.5w/kg took almost 3 years and a lot more volume. Now that I kind of know what it takes I don't think I'll go for the magic 5w/kg. I put more value on my endurance and fatigue resistance than high numbers.
Yeah the volume bit becomes key right, Clocking 20h weeks while keeping a job and a family for the sake of 5 isn’t worth it I find. The fatigue resistance is massive though. How much have you got left in hour 4-5. So important in these fondo events.
You will crush it. I did it with < 4 wtts/kilo and paced it terribly. I cramped at the mid-point and still managed to go sub 4 hours. I love the course. It’s just a great ride. And you end in Whistler Village. My Happy Place!
@@brentperez4700 thanks! I’ll do a recon of cypress prior and likely go full gas to then see how things stand as I get back down. Really unsure if and how I’ll need to pace it. Guess much will depend on latching to a group or not.
I train myself around 6 to 8 hrs a week. It looks me half year to jump out of the cat C. I don't think I have gift for cycling. I just trained myself regularly and hard. Monday: building power, 4*3mins 120% ftp(75rpm candence ), Tuesday: 3*10mins 105-107% ftp , Wednesday: High gear zone2.(50-58rpm), Thursday: 5*4mins Vo2max, Friday: Race and 1.5 hour group riding. Rest at the weekend. I did the same thing every week! Boring, but improving slowly! My ftp is 314w, 3.94wkg ( tested on Junly ), My goal for this year is 4.3wkg.
I've been at around 4.3w/kg at 82 kg at the beginning of 2020, the best part was having a zone 2 upper end of around 260w, made for some really confortable fast rides. Then came lockdowns, covid, and i gained weight and lost power and motivation. Even FTP isnt 260 today. 😢
I've run a 1:30 half marathon, but I have not yet reached an FTP above 3 W/kg. Perhaps I should feel encouraged that 4 is within reach. That said, I'm more interested in long climbing rides than 20-minute efforts, so it probably doesn't matter much in any case.
I think it would matter less yes although having said that if you were to increase your power output over 20 minutes, I think it's safe to assume you'll likely see a positive effect on your power over 45-60 minutes on an alpine type col.
After reading a few comment here, i think people forgot that while 4w/kg isnt exeptionnal it is still pretty fit when you compare to the amateur pool of cyclist out there. I think 4w/kg is attainable for most people willing to do the work and put consistency into it. You dont just get 4w/kg out of cereal box, you train for it. I would love to push and try to get 5w/kg someday but doubt it will ever happen. To get there i believe you have to control so much other aspect of life outside of training that is just not possible for most of us. There a certain threshold where you have to sacrifice in order to train as well, not sure it worth it. That said, after 12 years of road cycling, it has become pretty easy for me to maintain myself in that 4 - 4.3 ish w/kg and im getting alot of fun. For me the fun come in been competitive in event and been able to smash any kickass ride whenever i want. That for me is fitness. Found you video while training, thanks and keep on training. Have fun.
Thank you! Same here, took me a good bit of work (and time) to get 4 and I fear getting to 5 would just be too complex with all the other factors. Physically yeah maybe but it’s more than that. 20h training weeks are just not something I can bang out. Keep training and thank you.
I don’t know if 4w/kg is exceptional, but I do think it puts you into a legit category. The highest I’ve ever been able to achieve is 3.9, and I was able to win some mountain bike and cross races. Also, 4w/kg is not doable for everyone, as I have never been able to do it despite my best efforts and adherence to a structured training plan.
I got second at this years rbc grand Fondo, my training is easy zone 2 Monday to Friday and 2 intensity sessions(group ride) on the weekends. The most important thing is that base if youe base isnt high you cant relax and recover for when the hills start to pick up. We had the motorbike all day(draft) so it was pretty chill at the front but when we had to work it was hard on the hills luckily they weren't anything steep just went on for a few minutes. You jus have to climb Cypress at a respectable time to join the massive group at the bottom. Then that group will Carry you like a school of fish for 50k easy
Thank you. Really appreciate the input on this. I work hard on my zone 2 throughout the year so hope to have it locked in come sept. Not sure the front is realistic for me though at 4w/kg (or even slightly more) Ps: if those group rides are open to visiting Europeans, I’d love to join in pre fondo to get the legs in gear.
thanks! I 'stalk' Oliver on Strava after I found him on the results page of the fondo page. Safe to say I won't be anywhere near that type of power anyday soon lol :) With his power numbers I think he would get top 10 at the top European fondos like the Marmotte and the 3 Ballons..... @@nickolashanif96
I’m at 3.8 w/kg and I did a 26K (16.2 mile) run yesterday in 2:13. Came through the half marathon in 1:47. Gauging my effort, I probably could have held this till mile 19-20 before I totally fell off the cliff and died. If I ran the half on a flatter course, I reckon I could pace to maybe 1:38 for a half right now. This was a hillier effort yesterday. No way I could touch sub 3:20 for a marathon, or probably even sub 3:40. If the conditions were perfect I don’t think I could have the gonads to even attempt a pace faster than 3:35. I’ve only been biking for about 8 months ~8-12 hrs a week. Goal is to hit 4.5 w/kg by next Christmas .
The whole w/kg metric depresses me as a heavier rider. Choose the races that suit your capabilities and you'll have a better time and stay more motivated. My w/kg ranges from 3.7-4.25 depending on my weight and training consistency that year. I'm a heavy 82-86kg rider, so I like flatter races I can do better than average on, but I'm always gonna be mid pack (at best) on climbs. Also, remember to not compare yourself to the world-class athletes. Everyone want's to be that tiny outlier, but the fact you're doing a race/grand fondo means you already are.
So true this!! I get pummelled on the flats where raw power is king and shine a touch brighter when the road points up. Still, great point on the comparison to the genetic freaks out there :)
@@fondoquest getting my body fat down is key. In reality hitting a 400 is possible I think. But going over that is probably not going to happen. Best ever was 3.4wpk at 207lbs and FTP of 368.
@@Southerncyclist yeah diet is tough and I’m in no place to give out any advice as my eating habits aren’t exactly athletic but I lucked out with my genetic makeup on that front I guess.
Congrats on hitting your 4w/kg goal, very nice. I hope to hit 5w/kg this year, currently around 4.6 so that is the goal, last year at my best in may I hit 4.85 but it is getting harder as I get older. I am focusing much more on my z2 work and not letting my z2 rides become z3 rides so I need to be more disciplined in that regard for sure. Good luck with your training and racing
There is a 4w/kg and 4w/kg. While getting the 20m ftp test (I am not even mentioning the ramp test) to tell you that you have that number is one thing, the 60m power is another. In my case I would need about 4,2w on the one to have 4w on the other. This might depend on what kind of rider you are but I think I read somewhere that the average cyclist can hold 0,95 of the 20m average for about 47m, so roughly for about 75 percent of the one hour test - and that seems to be correct for me. That would not be such a problem if only the workouts told me which ftp they mean when they prescribe percentage of ftp. Also, if you are thinking about your ironman pace strategy or some such things, multiply the 20m test by 0,9 (at least) to get the more realistic predictions.
thanks yes that is in line with my experience as well. What I have done of late is add a 5-minute all-out effort before the 20-minute effort. That seems to tax my system a bit and does give me a more accurate number.
@@fondoquest warm up then 3min max 40mins z1/2 then 12min max gives you cp (ftp) and w'. Enter the values you get into a calculator which is easily found with a Google online same with more info definitely give it a try. I have found to be a much better reflection of my threshold probably why wt teams use it now
A few years I got my best ever finish in the RBC GF with a 3:37 on an aluminum Cervelo S1. Interestingly I didn't do intervals or anything too specific, but I did complete a Thomson Bike Tour week about 2 weeks prior. My theory is that smashing 20,000m and 900km in a week will give you all the training you'll ever need. There was quite a bit of strategic riding involved as well 😉
Thank you! You must have timed your super compensation perfectly then that time ! Interesting point about the strategy. I've no idea how that will play out given how the Forte and Regular will fuse at some point. Might do a video about that outlining my thoughts and then get you all to share tips lol.
@@fondoquest@fondoquest I mentioned I'm a Vancouverite who's ridden RBC 6 times, including the Forte. I always ride back the same afternoon. I progressed from a 4:45 down to a 3:37 for the regular 120km event. Let me know your Strava or email account if you want to connect and I can share tips and strategy
If you're reasonably lean with a low bmi, it doesn't seem that much of a stretch... At least compared to what it would be for an overweight person or someone with a higher bmi.. A lot of individuals will claim that w/kg is all relative, as if that extra weight (fat or muscle) is equates to having extra aerobic capacity.... Not so much.
I come from a strength background, and losing weight has been more challenging than one would think, but indeed, as my weight dropped, my ftp went up. So, unlike what some seem to think, "excessive muscle mass" (never thought i'd ever say that) actually takes so much energy that it holds you back.
Love your content. Strategy and planning will get you the results. I will watch your videos to make sure you achieve your goals. For my part I dont use so much the FTP but rather lactate threshold to optimize my rides especially during events. I live in Spain therefore events with lots of hills. Other variable like you is volume, progression of work, strength is extremely important and has significantly improved my performance. Improving my Vo2 max has helped me to climb longer hills. Lastly nutrition which is a highly discussed subject but for me only, i have improved my rides by using more electrolytes without sugar. One hour before my ride i take some electrolytes to reduce my heart rate so when i start my ride i wont be as stressed. Just some of my ideas. For me i am at ~4w/kg but i am not trying to achieve but higher just keeping my vo2 max in the 55-65 range proving to be a strong biomarker for longevity. Good luck in your goal.
Thanks so much! I hope to get some climbing km’s in the legs in spain soon. Thanks for your great input. Nutrition is something I’ve never paid too much attention to but will try to focus on going into next year.
What's the best way (in your opinion) to calculate LTHR? I've seen a few different methods. I don't yet have a power meter yet (it's on the list), and so will be training with just HR doing base blocks for a few months. Any advice/opinions would be greatly appreciated!
that's a great question but one I honestly don't have an answer for as it's not something I've ever investigated. I would imagine that percentage of max hr would be the way to do it?@@maxwellsage7422
@@maxwellsage7422 @fondoquest My suggestion and how I did it: Option 1- go to the lab Option 2 : using a power meter and heart rate. First there is a difference between 1hr lactate threshold (LT) and 4 hr ride. First my data: 78kg HR 40-170max Power ~312 or 4w/kg LT is the point you get cramps or HR is increasing drastically. The 1 hr LT is for indoor ride and will usually be higher with high intensity 3x/week at 90% of FTP with heart rate of 80%. For me that would be 280-290w/140HR. This may require few attempts. Before you start one hour warm up for 10 minutes. For longer rides and events, you could start at 75-80% average of HR max for 4-5 hrs cycling alone not drafting. Strava will give you a normalized power. For me, If I ride outside for 4-5 hrs I usually ride at 75% of my FTP and 75-80% my heart rate max and I am not totally wasted. LT is usually lower for longer rides. Two different environments.
I think that's the beauty of cycling, it aligns well with 'older' age. I picked it up during covid so I'm 3 years in roughly. Only really started focusing on numbers in my second year. I say go for it :)
Im not sure how gifted i am at cycling, im at 4w/kg despite a terrible diet and being overweight. 77 KG with FTP between 300 and 320 depending on the day. Been training for a few months at this point.
I’d say pretty gifted! I needed a lot more than a few months to reach 4. Biggest win for me was going from 69kg to 63 so you might be able to get a ‘quick’ won by focusing on that
I think a sub 3 marathon would be much harder as age and body composition can also make a big difference compared whereas size/weight is less of a factor to getting to 4 wkg
I guess at some point I'll need to at least try and hold sub 3 pace on a run and see where I get.... based on the comments it won't be very far :D@@gourami7
awesome question: here goes: 1) the one thing by Gary Keller 2) Psycho-cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz 3) Elon Musk biography 4) Shoe Dog - Phil Knight 5) The art of learning - Josh Waitzkin
4w/kg was looking pretty achievable till I got sick of lacking upper body strength and added upper body stuff to my gym routine. Gained weight, lost w/kg due to that, but loss inches off the waist while gaining upper body strength so alls good 😂😂. I’d happily let the lighter folks drop me in the climb if it means I have more muscle mass for use in actually daily life
man this couldn't be more timely. I've been 'battling' with this as well. Due to circumstances I've spent less time on the bike of late and have done more gym work and have felt amazing doing so. I mean yeah sure I'm heavier and slower going uphill but in the grander scheme of things like you said it's so much more worth it! A more holistic, multi-dimensional approach works a million times better for me.
5 is not easy. It took me good 2 years to reach that. From around 4.5 W/kg. Volume becomes important. Generally 17-22h/week is a must (at least for me). Training with a coach also. This year I reached around 5.2 so targeting 5.5 ftp this year (i hold i this for 20 min) but i think it wont be possible.
well done here! I can see how you get top 10s in gran fondos and with 5,5 that might even become top 5 perhaps.... For me a top 100 would be nice at this point lol.
Hey there - what equipment/tools do you use to gather this data? I'm just getting into cycling as a sport instead of just as a casual afternoon activity and I've just been using my phone and watch to gather basic metrics, but I don't believe the Apple Watch shows wattage
Thank you for watching! I don't own an Apple watch but as far as I know, it does track heart rate. Power/watts won't be tracked so for that you'll need to purchase a power meter and have it installed on your bike. I use the Assioma pedal type from Favero because it allows me to swap the pedals between my road and gravel bike: cycling.favero.com/en/shop/assioma-uno?refresh=true&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
@@fondoquest thanks man! That’s a pretty cool power meter but definitely out of my budget for now, lol. I am not entirely sure if I want those metrics that bad yet. I’m riding a 1987 Peugeot Ventoux road bike that I upgraded with used Ultegra set from the early 2000’s, and those cost more than my entire build!
@@SkrufTheSkruf I’d say just enjoy riding for now and if you feel like an upgrade is due in the future perhaps consider buying a bike that comes with a powermeter. Canyon does a lot of that.
FWIW, if you are doing indoor training, a good smart trainer (wahoo kicker snap?) will give you power numbers, maybe for less than a bike power meter. I never used a power meter outdoors until I bought a new bike this year.
I feel like 4w/kg is not special because it's in the range that everyone can train to. For some people, it'll be just a couple months, for some people, it'll be a couple years of accumulating fitness and then specific training to get to it. This is assuming everyone can lose enough weight as well to hit the mark. When I hit 4w/kg on an actual 1 hour climb, I was still far behind a lot of gifted athletes around me so never felt special lol. 5w/kg however is a mark that a lot of people won't hit, no matter what. Even at their ideal weight, you need some help from your genetic make up to be able to hit 5w/kg IMO. That's when you find other strengths in your cycling power profile or abilities to make the difference. You can absolutely still win races against people more genetically gifted.
Fair point and thanks for taking the time to write it down. That 5W/kg marker is something I'd love to hit and I have to second your point in that it would be a stretch for me, whereas the 4 marker was/is reachable given enough training volume. Let's see if I can get close to 5 by next summer :)
Lots of people are jumping from 4 to 5 as a measure. I think VC Adventures articulates it well here ruclips.net/video/HXSxSFS0VR4/видео.html&si=fXYAPhEqmIWG6ZOM if you are going to upgrade from 4 then maybe 4.5 is a more realistic target, because 5 is a long way from 4.
the jump is huge indeed (at least for me) given the effort it took me to reach 4 I can only imagine it gets harder with every 0,1 increase....@@ModerateCyclist
I had to go to Google but it told me FTP in this context is 'functional threshold power'. It estimates the highest average power one can sustain for one hour (or 45 minutes), measured in watts. Google goes further by stating "95% of the 20 minute average power is used to determine FTP" which is where it lost me. What 20 minutes ? Divide FTP by the riders weight in kg for W/kg.
That second bit is referring to the "20-minute FTP test" protocol, wherein you hold the highest number of watts that you possibly can for a 20-minute duration. Take this wattage and multiply by 0.95 and supposedly that's your functional threshold power. In my experience that multiplier is more like 90%, or 0.90. For example, my best 20-minute power result was 339W, but the absolute best 1-hour average I've had was 303W. If I went by the "95%" rule I achieved over 4.0 W/kg, but if I went by my actual best 1-hour average I was just slightly below (I was 77kg at that time).
@@ktakashismith thank you for this and I agree with the 0.90, in my experience setting my zones based on 0.95 always ends up feeling a touch too hard. Sweetspot becomes threshold.
Did you actually test your FTP to see if you can sustain 4w/kg? - the 9 min effort at 292w 62kg does suggest you were close, specially if you went on to a good ride & result, but if you don’t regularly test then it’s just speculation. Regularly testing is part any good training regimen. Also, you keep referencing 20 minutes, but as you know, FTP is the power that you can sustain for 60 minutes, it matters and is helpful for a number of reasons.
Thanks, good point. I finished that race (4 hours) with 225 NP, 203 average so think I wouldn't have been far off. True about the 20 minute, I was referring to the test there but should have made that more clear. Here's a link to the ride: www.strava.com/activities/9777986752
@@fondoquest that's a great ride!! It does suggest you were close to a 240~248ish FTP, and specially that the upper bound of your zone 2 (or lower bound of zone 3) is very high. But still the only way to really know is to test. The results would also then help re-adjust your zones and fine tuning training on your way to even stronger rides. It's been a few months now, and you do you, but would have been fun and compelling to see you do this ride, rest a few days, and then test to confirm the hypothesis that you are able to sustain 4w/kg
I'll surely be doing some testing and including it on the channel so watch this space :) Interesting that you can detect my upper bound zone 2 is high, I somehow suspected that given the relative ease with which I can stomach longer climbs at a steady pace. In any case, really appreciate your input. @@eloyanzola
@@fondoquest only noting as the way you discuss it in the video and the comments suggests that ftp is your twenty minute power see the 'ftp isn't everything section' of your video. This talks about focussing on ftp if your goal is twenty minute power. For good twenty minute power of course you want to raise your ftp, but you also want to increase your vo2 max and anaerobic power a lot. FTP is relatively more important for longer efforts and races, ie one off efforts of 30 minutes to an hour, and longer races where you want to keep below threshold as much as possible
Really appreciate all of you watching and getting involved! Thanks for subscribing and liking.
Tbh man I think 5w/kg is definitely more that special number. I feel anyone young with some focus in cycling can reach 4w/kg. 5w/kg is much harder to achieve and requires specific and focused training over a couple of years and a bit of genetic gift. As for the 3 hour marathon mark, I'm not a runner so I'm not sure where it falls in relation to w/kg but I would think it to be more like 4.5w/kg
Yep, based on the other comments, you would be right. Hopefully I'll be able to make a 5W/kg video at some point :) Ideally by next summer although it'll be a tall order for sure.
Agreed. I rode bikes when I was a teenager, and then barely touched them at all for almost 18 years. I picked up riding again in January 2023, squeezing in about 10 hours per week of training, as that is all I had time for as a full-time grad student with a full time job and wife and three kids. By the middle of May I was at 4.0 w/kg. I finished school and was able to increase my ride time to 17-18 hours per week, and by the end of Fall I was 4.5 w/kg. I don't see any reason I couldn't be 5.0 w/kg by the same time next year. I definitely feel like anyone with even a little enthusiasm about riding can reach 4 w/kg pretty easily. It's enough power to feel like you can comfortably hang with most group rides, but that's about it. Even at 4.5 w/kg I only feel like a slightly above average rider, it's not like I could go out and win any big races, I'd be lucky to even hang onto the pack when guys at 5.5+ w/kg are pushing the pace. I think 5.0 w/kg is a solid number that I would be proud of, but I definitely see that as the starting point of competitive fitness.
I second this, as I'm nowhere near the pointy end of any of the races I do....the problem here in Europe is that even at 5W it's unlikely to put me in the mix in any of those fondos here. The power some of those boys in the top 10 put out is insane...@@HydeMyJekyll
I've ran a 2h58 marathon and attained a 4.3 W/kg FTP. Getting to 4.5 W/kg FTP is much harder. 3h marathon was done mostly in Z2 and a few tempos. 4.3 W/kg had to do multiple 4 weeks cycles with intervals, I think I could go higher, but always get burned out. 5W/kg no way, seems out of my genetics range or I'd get too much injuries (knee, back pain...), not that I'm not still trying to get there. Feels like a 5W/kg FTP is equivalent to a 2h30-2h40 marathon and 6W/kg sub 2h15 marathon.
Oh and I've been training for 15 years, I know my limits and very lean although naturally more muscular like lance armstrong (without the crazy genetics). I look at this like 3h marathon equals 5.12 climbing grade equals maybe 4.2W FTP.
5w/kg is my big goal, and it feels really far (4.5 right now). Keep going everyone!
it's a tall order alright and I do think one that requires serious volume (at least for me lol) - good luck and keep pushing.
it took me good two years to reach that (from around 4.5). And i trained a lot (around 17-22h per week with coach etc). Now Im generally in top 10 in granfondos also with thousands people but it took me some effort.
Thank you! That is both encouraging and humbling at the same time. Work will need to be put in whatever way we look at it@@raphaeltiziani7476
Thanks for the video! My main focus for racing next year is a 24-hour time trial, so a huge part of determining the winner is just raw power. Of course equipment selection, position refinement, and nutrition play a big role as well, but none of that makes a bit of difference if there isn't enough power to back it up. My training and event calendar is basically "gain more power at any cost" up until it's time to begin final race preparations. 5.0 w/kg is about the minimum to be competitive for a spot on the podium, with the winners typically much higher.
wow that's quite the challenge..... good luck with that and keep checking in with updates please! And I'll do the same via the channel. 5W/kg all around :)
For me 4w/kg took about 6 months of riding 10 hours per week. 4.5w/kg took almost 3 years and a lot more volume. Now that I kind of know what it takes I don't think I'll go for the magic 5w/kg. I put more value on my endurance and fatigue resistance than high numbers.
Yeah the volume bit becomes key right, Clocking 20h weeks while keeping a job and a family for the sake of 5 isn’t worth it I find.
The fatigue resistance is massive though. How much have you got left in hour 4-5. So important in these fondo events.
Good Luck at the Whistler Gran Fondo. I did it a couple of times, and it is a fantastic ride. At 4 WTS/KILO you are going to have a good ride.
thanks so much, hoping to have pushed that number by then!
You will crush it. I did it with < 4 wtts/kilo and paced it terribly. I cramped at the mid-point and still managed to go sub 4 hours. I love the course. It’s just a great ride. And you end in Whistler Village. My Happy Place!
@@brentperez4700 thanks! I’ll do a recon of cypress prior and likely go full gas to then see how things stand as I get back down. Really unsure if and how I’ll need to pace it. Guess much will depend on latching to a group or not.
My thinking of gifted is when someone trains less than 6 hours per week but can somehow achieve 4wkg
definitely not me then so maybe the term 'marginally gifted' should have been 'ungifted' lol
I train 4 hours a week on the bike and 2 days of free weight core exercises and can pull 4 w/kg. You most certainly do not need to be gifted lol.
I train myself around 6 to 8 hrs a week. It looks me half year to jump out of the cat C. I don't think I have gift for cycling. I just trained myself regularly and hard. Monday: building power, 4*3mins 120% ftp(75rpm candence ), Tuesday: 3*10mins 105-107% ftp , Wednesday: High gear zone2.(50-58rpm), Thursday: 5*4mins Vo2max, Friday: Race and 1.5 hour group riding. Rest at the weekend. I did the same thing every week! Boring, but improving slowly! My ftp is 314w, 3.94wkg ( tested on Junly ), My goal for this year is 4.3wkg.
I've been at around 4.3w/kg at 82 kg at the beginning of 2020, the best part was having a zone 2 upper end of around 260w, made for some really confortable fast rides.
Then came lockdowns, covid, and i gained weight and lost power and motivation. Even FTP isnt 260 today. 😢
yeah fitness.... it comes slow but goes fast, I'm facing the same thing at the moment and am trying not to get affected by it too much...
I've run a 1:30 half marathon, but I have not yet reached an FTP above 3 W/kg. Perhaps I should feel encouraged that 4 is within reach. That said, I'm more interested in long climbing rides than 20-minute efforts, so it probably doesn't matter much in any case.
I think it would matter less yes although having said that if you were to increase your power output over 20 minutes, I think it's safe to assume you'll likely see a positive effect on your power over 45-60 minutes on an alpine type col.
After reading a few comment here, i think people forgot that while 4w/kg isnt exeptionnal it is still pretty fit when you compare to the amateur pool of cyclist out there. I think 4w/kg is attainable for most people willing to do the work and put consistency into it. You dont just get 4w/kg out of cereal box, you train for it.
I would love to push and try to get 5w/kg someday but doubt it will ever happen. To get there i believe you have to control so much other aspect of life outside of training that is just not possible for most of us. There a certain threshold where you have to sacrifice in order to train as well, not sure it worth it.
That said, after 12 years of road cycling, it has become pretty easy for me to maintain myself in that 4 - 4.3 ish w/kg and im getting alot of fun. For me the fun come in been competitive in event and been able to smash any kickass ride whenever i want. That for me is fitness.
Found you video while training, thanks and keep on training. Have fun.
Thank you! Same here, took me a good bit of work (and time) to get 4 and I fear getting to 5 would just be too complex with all the other factors. Physically yeah maybe but it’s more than that. 20h training weeks are just not something I can bang out. Keep training and thank you.
I don’t know if 4w/kg is exceptional, but I do think it puts you into a legit category. The highest I’ve ever been able to achieve is 3.9, and I was able to win some mountain bike and cross races. Also, 4w/kg is not doable for everyone, as I have never been able to do it despite my best efforts and adherence to a structured training plan.
@@brentperez4700 as a fellow mere mortal I tend to agree that the 4 marker is pivotal and no small accomplishment.
I got second at this years rbc grand Fondo, my training is easy zone 2 Monday to Friday and 2 intensity sessions(group ride) on the weekends. The most important thing is that base if youe base isnt high you cant relax and recover for when the hills start to pick up. We had the motorbike all day(draft) so it was pretty chill at the front but when we had to work it was hard on the hills luckily they weren't anything steep just went on for a few minutes. You jus have to climb Cypress at a respectable time to join the massive group at the bottom. Then that group will Carry you like a school of fish for 50k easy
ruclips.net/video/PNi25LqXff0/видео.htmlsi=BVJeYBI0brH09QAx this is the lead rider braking away all day
Thank you. Really appreciate the input on this. I work hard on my zone 2 throughout the year so hope to have it locked in come sept. Not sure the front is realistic for me though at 4w/kg (or even slightly more)
Ps: if those group rides are open to visiting Europeans, I’d love to join in pre fondo to get the legs in gear.
thanks! I 'stalk' Oliver on Strava after I found him on the results page of the fondo page. Safe to say I won't be anywhere near that type of power anyday soon lol :) With his power numbers I think he would get top 10 at the top European fondos like the Marmotte and the 3 Ballons..... @@nickolashanif96
I’m at 3.8 w/kg and I did a 26K (16.2 mile) run yesterday in 2:13. Came through the half marathon in 1:47. Gauging my effort, I probably could have held this till mile 19-20 before I totally fell off the cliff and died. If I ran the half on a flatter course, I reckon I could pace to maybe 1:38 for a half right now. This was a hillier effort yesterday. No way I could touch sub 3:20 for a marathon, or probably even sub 3:40. If the conditions were perfect I don’t think I could have the gonads to even attempt a pace faster than 3:35. I’ve only been biking for about 8 months ~8-12 hrs a week. Goal is to hit 4.5 w/kg by next Christmas .
thanks! super interesting comparison. It really wildly differs from individual to individual it would appear.
The whole w/kg metric depresses me as a heavier rider. Choose the races that suit your capabilities and you'll have a better time and stay more motivated. My w/kg ranges from 3.7-4.25 depending on my weight and training consistency that year. I'm a heavy 82-86kg rider, so I like flatter races I can do better than average on, but I'm always gonna be mid pack (at best) on climbs. Also, remember to not compare yourself to the world-class athletes. Everyone want's to be that tiny outlier, but the fact you're doing a race/grand fondo means you already are.
So true this!! I get pummelled on the flats where raw power is king and shine a touch brighter when the road points up. Still, great point on the comparison to the genetic freaks out there :)
4wpk is tuff when you're 6'3 and 100 KG. Currently at 3 wpk ish.
honestly I think it’s no easy feat, full stop. Consistent training will get you there. Might take a while but get there you will! Keep it up.
@@fondoquest getting my body fat down is key. In reality hitting a 400 is possible I think. But going over that is probably not going to happen. Best ever was 3.4wpk at 207lbs and FTP of 368.
@@Southerncyclist yeah diet is tough and I’m in no place to give out any advice as my eating habits aren’t exactly athletic but I lucked out with my genetic makeup on that front I guess.
@@Southerncyclist 368 watts @ 207 lbs is a 3.9 w/kg FTP
@@kurtobermeyer3356 my bad 😋
Congrats on hitting your 4w/kg goal, very nice. I hope to hit 5w/kg this year, currently around 4.6 so that is the goal, last year at my best in may I hit 4.85 but it is getting harder as I get older. I am focusing much more on my z2 work and not letting my z2 rides become z3 rides so I need to be more disciplined in that regard for sure.
Good luck with your training and racing
The hardest part is not chasing people when doing Z2. It just feels so hard not to.
Solid numbers there! Good luck reaching 5. Z2 had also helped me so much but it’s a ‘chore’ at times yes.
@@Grunge_Cycling haha yes! Know that feeling. Race instinct I guess ;)
Similar goal here. Im at 4.7 right now, so if I can hit 5 wkg by march I will have managed it within my first year cycling
wow ! dare I say it, you are gifted my friend!@@notnixx2912
There is a 4w/kg and 4w/kg. While getting the 20m ftp test (I am not even mentioning the ramp test) to tell you that you have that number is one thing, the 60m power is another. In my case I would need about 4,2w on the one to have 4w on the other. This might depend on what kind of rider you are but I think I read somewhere that the average cyclist can hold 0,95 of the 20m average for about 47m, so roughly for about 75 percent of the one hour test - and that seems to be correct for me. That would not be such a problem if only the workouts told me which ftp they mean when they prescribe percentage of ftp. Also, if you are thinking about your ironman pace strategy or some such things, multiply the 20m test by 0,9 (at least) to get the more realistic predictions.
thanks yes that is in line with my experience as well. What I have done of late is add a 5-minute all-out effort before the 20-minute effort. That seems to tax my system a bit and does give me a more accurate number.
or just do critical power test instead
how does that protocol work then?
@@rotation-y2n
@@fondoquest warm up then 3min max 40mins z1/2 then 12min max gives you cp (ftp) and w'. Enter the values you get into a calculator which is easily found with a Google online same with more info definitely give it a try. I have found to be a much better reflection of my threshold probably why wt teams use it now
great thank you - will try this@@rotation-y2n
A few years I got my best ever finish in the RBC GF with a 3:37 on an aluminum Cervelo S1. Interestingly I didn't do intervals or anything too specific, but I did complete a Thomson Bike Tour week about 2 weeks prior. My theory is that smashing 20,000m and 900km in a week will give you all the training you'll ever need. There was quite a bit of strategic riding involved as well 😉
Thank you! You must have timed your super compensation perfectly then that time ! Interesting point about the strategy. I've no idea how that will play out given how the Forte and Regular will fuse at some point. Might do a video about that outlining my thoughts and then get you all to share tips lol.
@@fondoquest did you catch the comment I left on your video from a month ago when you announced you're signed up for the RBC GF?
No I didn't and I just checked the comments on that video and I don't think it's there? Am I missing something@@WowRixter
this one ruclips.net/video/qzn-xeAOaiw/видео.html
@@fondoquest@fondoquest I mentioned I'm a Vancouverite who's ridden RBC 6 times, including the Forte. I always ride back the same afternoon. I progressed from a 4:45 down to a 3:37 for the regular 120km event. Let me know your Strava or email account if you want to connect and I can share tips and strategy
If you're reasonably lean with a low bmi, it doesn't seem that much of a stretch... At least compared to what it would be for an overweight person or someone with a higher bmi.. A lot of individuals will claim that w/kg is all relative, as if that extra weight (fat or muscle) is equates to having extra aerobic capacity.... Not so much.
Yeah so not quite like powerlifting then where more mass is more weight/plates :)
I come from a strength background, and losing weight has been more challenging than one would think, but indeed, as my weight dropped, my ftp went up. So, unlike what some seem to think, "excessive muscle mass" (never thought i'd ever say that) actually takes so much energy that it holds you back.
thanks for the input here, steady on with the upper body sessions then in the gym :)@@erikvanderveken1408
Love your content. Strategy and planning will get you the results. I will watch your videos to make sure you achieve your goals. For my part I dont use so much the FTP but rather lactate threshold to optimize my rides especially during events. I live in Spain therefore events with lots of hills. Other variable like you is volume, progression of work, strength is extremely important and has significantly improved my performance. Improving my Vo2 max has helped me to climb longer hills. Lastly nutrition which is a highly discussed subject but for me only, i have improved my rides by using more electrolytes without sugar. One hour before my ride i take some electrolytes to reduce my heart rate so when i start my ride i wont be as stressed. Just some of my ideas. For me i am at ~4w/kg but i am not trying to achieve but higher just keeping my vo2 max in the 55-65 range proving to be a strong biomarker for longevity. Good luck in your goal.
Thanks so much! I hope to get some climbing km’s in the legs in spain soon. Thanks for your great input. Nutrition is something I’ve never paid too much attention to but will try to focus on going into next year.
What's the best way (in your opinion) to calculate LTHR? I've seen a few different methods. I don't yet have a power meter yet (it's on the list), and so will be training with just HR doing base blocks for a few months. Any advice/opinions would be greatly appreciated!
that's a great question but one I honestly don't have an answer for as it's not something I've ever investigated. I would imagine that percentage of max hr would be the way to do it?@@maxwellsage7422
@@maxwellsage7422 @fondoquest
My suggestion and how I did it:
Option 1- go to the lab
Option 2 : using a power meter and heart rate. First there is a difference between 1hr lactate threshold (LT) and 4 hr ride.
First my data:
78kg
HR 40-170max
Power ~312 or 4w/kg
LT is the point you get cramps or HR is increasing drastically.
The 1 hr LT is for indoor ride and will usually be higher with high intensity 3x/week at 90% of FTP with heart rate of 80%. For me that would be 280-290w/140HR. This may require few attempts. Before you start one hour warm up for 10 minutes.
For longer rides and events, you could start at 75-80% average of HR max for 4-5 hrs cycling alone not drafting. Strava will give you a normalized power.
For me, If I ride outside for 4-5 hrs I usually ride at 75% of my FTP and 75-80% my heart rate max and I am not totally wasted. LT is usually lower for longer rides.
Two different environments.
i was always "good" on the functional threshold power test but never on the races themselves
Yeah I guess testing is very relative. It’s on race/event day that power needs to be put down when relevant.
Awesome video. I'm 34 and thinking about making this my goal for 2024. Wondering how old you were when you set on this journey? Thanks
I think that's the beauty of cycling, it aligns well with 'older' age. I picked it up during covid so I'm 3 years in roughly. Only really started focusing on numbers in my second year. I say go for it :)
Im not sure how gifted i am at cycling, im at 4w/kg despite a terrible diet and being overweight. 77 KG with FTP between 300 and 320 depending on the day. Been training for a few months at this point.
I’d say pretty gifted! I needed a lot more than a few months to reach 4. Biggest win for me was going from 69kg to 63 so you might be able to get a ‘quick’ won by focusing on that
Most amateur cyclists train for years to hit a 4w/kg. Or train for years and never reach it.
@@Hiyoohiyoo I'd agree our boy is very, very gifted :)
Running a sub 3 marathon is considerably harder than getting a 4wkg FTP. The two are not even close.
Yeah I’ll have to agree, my very first ftp test was 3.2w/kg and all I did was one maybe two rides a week at the time.
As the most I’ve ever run is 10k, I’ll happily agree with you as I just lifted that equivalent out of post I read.
I think a sub 3 marathon would be much harder as age and body composition can also make a big difference compared whereas size/weight is less of a factor to getting to 4 wkg
@@Owwee_immaB I thought 4w/kg was already quite the feat for me so a sub 3 marathon if ever I were to try and reach it, will be quite the challenge 😅
I guess at some point I'll need to at least try and hold sub 3 pace on a run and see where I get.... based on the comments it won't be very far :D@@gourami7
what are your top 5 favorite books? im really into business/self-dev books. currently reading 38 letters from jd rockerfeller to his son.
awesome question:
here goes:
1) the one thing by Gary Keller
2) Psycho-cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz
3) Elon Musk biography
4) Shoe Dog - Phil Knight
5) The art of learning - Josh Waitzkin
mate you look like the great man Bryan Coquard... Now to get to his FTP
haha :D yeah exactly! Pretty sure me reaching his FTP won't happen anytime soon! Thanks for watching.
what kind of richard mille is this on your wrist?
lol - nothing as fancy as that - it's my whoop band with the battery charger attached do it.
4w/kg was looking pretty achievable till I got sick of lacking upper body strength and added upper body stuff to my gym routine.
Gained weight, lost w/kg due to that, but loss inches off the waist while gaining upper body strength so alls good 😂😂. I’d happily let the lighter folks drop me in the climb if it means I have more muscle mass for use in actually daily life
man this couldn't be more timely. I've been 'battling' with this as well. Due to circumstances I've spent less time on the bike of late and have done more gym work and have felt amazing doing so. I mean yeah sure I'm heavier and slower going uphill but in the grander scheme of things like you said it's so much more worth it! A more holistic, multi-dimensional approach works a million times better for me.
5 is not easy. It took me good 2 years to reach that. From around 4.5 W/kg. Volume becomes important. Generally 17-22h/week is a must (at least for me). Training with a coach also. This year I reached around 5.2 so targeting 5.5 ftp this year (i hold i this for 20 min) but i think it wont be possible.
well done here! I can see how you get top 10s in gran fondos and with 5,5 that might even become top 5 perhaps.... For me a top 100 would be nice at this point lol.
@@fondoquest its never enough. Though the genetic sealing exists sadly
haha yes I'm acutely aware of that ceiling whenever I get overtaken in fondos :)
@@raphaeltiziani7476
Hey there - what equipment/tools do you use to gather this data? I'm just getting into cycling as a sport instead of just as a casual afternoon activity and I've just been using my phone and watch to gather basic metrics, but I don't believe the Apple Watch shows wattage
Thank you for watching!
I don't own an Apple watch but as far as I know, it does track heart rate.
Power/watts won't be tracked so for that you'll need to purchase a power meter and have it installed on your bike. I use the Assioma pedal type from Favero because it allows me to swap the pedals between my road and gravel bike:
cycling.favero.com/en/shop/assioma-uno?refresh=true&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
@@fondoquest thanks man! That’s a pretty cool power meter but definitely out of my budget for now, lol. I am not entirely sure if I want those metrics that bad yet. I’m riding a 1987 Peugeot Ventoux road bike that I upgraded with used Ultegra set from the early 2000’s, and those cost more than my entire build!
@@SkrufTheSkruf I’d say just enjoy riding for now and if you feel like an upgrade is due in the future perhaps consider buying a bike that comes with a powermeter. Canyon does a lot of that.
FWIW, if you are doing indoor training, a good smart trainer (wahoo kicker snap?) will give you power numbers, maybe for less than a bike power meter. I never used a power meter outdoors until I bought a new bike this year.
@@GordAddison true! I’ve used the snap for 2 years now and besides from it being a touch noisy, it’s great value I find.
I feel like 4w/kg is not special because it's in the range that everyone can train to. For some people, it'll be just a couple months, for some people, it'll be a couple years of accumulating fitness and then specific training to get to it. This is assuming everyone can lose enough weight as well to hit the mark. When I hit 4w/kg on an actual 1 hour climb, I was still far behind a lot of gifted athletes around me so never felt special lol.
5w/kg however is a mark that a lot of people won't hit, no matter what. Even at their ideal weight, you need some help from your genetic make up to be able to hit 5w/kg IMO. That's when you find other strengths in your cycling power profile or abilities to make the difference. You can absolutely still win races against people more genetically gifted.
Fair point and thanks for taking the time to write it down. That 5W/kg marker is something I'd love to hit and I have to second your point in that it would be a stretch for me, whereas the 4 marker was/is reachable given enough training volume. Let's see if I can get close to 5 by next summer :)
Lots of people are jumping from 4 to 5 as a measure. I think VC Adventures articulates it well here ruclips.net/video/HXSxSFS0VR4/видео.html&si=fXYAPhEqmIWG6ZOM if you are going to upgrade from 4 then maybe 4.5 is a more realistic target, because 5 is a long way from 4.
the jump is huge indeed (at least for me) given the effort it took me to reach 4 I can only imagine it gets harder with every 0,1 increase....@@ModerateCyclist
@@fondoquest I managed 4.3 last year (although by the end of the year I was probably closer to 4.0). 4.5 will be my goal for 2024.
good luck!@@ModerateCyclist
How long do you have to hold the 4w/KG for it to count?
That’s a much debated question 😅- I guess a full hour if we go by the official description of ftp…
What cycle are you using?. Is it a good bike going to make huge different.
I use a Canyon Ultimate on the road and a Canyon Grail for off-road / gravel rides.
great video
ill wave if i spot you at rbc!
Please do and come and say hi !!
I had to go to Google but it told me FTP in this context is 'functional threshold power'. It estimates the highest average power one can sustain for one hour (or 45 minutes), measured in watts. Google goes further by stating "95% of the 20 minute average power is used to determine FTP" which is where it lost me. What 20 minutes ?
Divide FTP by the riders weight in kg for W/kg.
That second bit is referring to the "20-minute FTP test" protocol, wherein you hold the highest number of watts that you possibly can for a 20-minute duration. Take this wattage and multiply by 0.95 and supposedly that's your functional threshold power. In my experience that multiplier is more like 90%, or 0.90. For example, my best 20-minute power result was 339W, but the absolute best 1-hour average I've had was 303W. If I went by the "95%" rule I achieved over 4.0 W/kg, but if I went by my actual best 1-hour average I was just slightly below (I was 77kg at that time).
@@ktakashismith Thank you.
@@ktakashismith thank you for this and I agree with the 0.90, in my experience setting my zones based on 0.95 always ends up feeling a touch too hard. Sweetspot becomes threshold.
@@dogphlap6749 thanks for checking out the video. If you’ve any other questions, fire away :)
Going for 5wkg rn
Go get it! Good luck!
That’s next nevel, keep pushing!
every average joe is gifted yt creator
Thank you! Glad you like the content.
Did you actually test your FTP to see if you can sustain 4w/kg? - the 9 min effort at 292w 62kg does suggest you were close, specially if you went on to a good ride & result, but if you don’t regularly test then it’s just speculation. Regularly testing is part any good training regimen. Also, you keep referencing 20 minutes, but as you know, FTP is the power that you can sustain for 60 minutes, it matters and is helpful for a number of reasons.
Thanks, good point. I finished that race (4 hours) with 225 NP, 203 average so think I wouldn't have been far off. True about the 20 minute, I was referring to the test there but should have made that more clear. Here's a link to the ride:
www.strava.com/activities/9777986752
@@fondoquest that's a great ride!! It does suggest you were close to a 240~248ish FTP, and specially that the upper bound of your zone 2 (or lower bound of zone 3) is very high. But still the only way to really know is to test. The results would also then help re-adjust your zones and fine tuning training on your way to even stronger rides. It's been a few months now, and you do you, but would have been fun and compelling to see you do this ride, rest a few days, and then test to confirm the hypothesis that you are able to sustain 4w/kg
I'll surely be doing some testing and including it on the channel so watch this space :) Interesting that you can detect my upper bound zone 2 is high, I somehow suspected that given the relative ease with which I can stomach longer climbs at a steady pace. In any case, really appreciate your input. @@eloyanzola
ftp is your power for efforts a fair bit longer than twenty minutes - average is around 50 minutes
I did indeed only gleen that 4+ from that race effort.
@@fondoquest only noting as the way you discuss it in the video and the comments suggests that ftp is your twenty minute power
see the 'ftp isn't everything section' of your video. This talks about focussing on ftp if your goal is twenty minute power.
For good twenty minute power of course you want to raise your ftp, but you also want to increase your vo2 max and anaerobic power a lot. FTP is relatively more important for longer efforts and races, ie one off efforts of 30 minutes to an hour, and longer races where you want to keep below threshold as much as possible
man's "marignalllllllllllly" gifted, you geddme.
in other words, 'nothing to write home about' ;)
4wkg lol