Ex-Polygamist Reacts to Sister Wives: Season 3 - Comparing and contrasting the LDS, FLDS, and AUB
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- Опубликовано: 2 ноя 2023
- Welcome Back!
In this video Sam & Melissa share their unique perspective on Season 3 of the popular reality show "Sister Wives." Join us as we dive deep into the world of polygamy, comparing and contrasting the experiences of the Brown Family, stars of the hit series, with Sam's own upbringing in the FLDS polygamous culture.
Discover the similarities and differences in these two polygamous lifestyles, gain insights into the challenges and complexities of living in such families, and explore the personal journey of Sam & Melissa as they provide a candid and heartfelt analysis of 'Sister Wives' Season 3. If you're curious about the dynamics of polygamous families and the impact of leaving such communities, this video offers a unique perspective that you won't want to miss.
Subscribe, hit the notification bell, and give this video a thumbs up if you're ready to embark on this enlightening journey with us. Let's dive into the world of "Sister Wives" and the Brown family's faith together!
#SisterWives #Polygamy #ReligiousAspects #BrownFamily #PolygamyAnalysis #EyeOpeningInsights
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If TLC had not filmed the church services we would not have gotten Robyn's wonderful Purity Speech where she basically said her oldest 3 kids were a product of abuse/rape.
Robyn just saying purity grossed me out
I wonder what the other wives were really thinking when she was talking about giving away her purity.
It would be fantastic if you guys could have an interview with Kody. Nothing about the TLC show but the nittygritty of polygamy, from all 3 of your backgrounds. Would be interesting.
cody was on a mormon podcast the other day. He lied the whole time and shifted the conversation every time he didn’t wanna answer a question.
No it wouldn't. Kody is full of $#!+, therefore that is all that comes out of his mouth. He would probably compare himself, and his witch of a wife to this lovely couple. Kody and Robyn are not Godly people. They are just under the worst of sinners, which are murderers.
Kody wouldnt do it , as he thinks he knows more than anyone
I think I heard something in Sam’s voice for a second….Anger? Frustration? Very unusual for Sam.
He’s always so sweet & gentle- unless we’re talking about Kody.
I enjoy Sam and Melissa's thoughtful commentary, but Kody is not an honest person, lies and obfuscates and justifies his abusive pattern of behavior. Life is too short to listen to him for one more second than absolutely necessary. Imo
I was just a kid, around fifth grade, when the YFZ raid happened. In our social studies class, we'd start by discussing the news, and I vividly remember how the FLDS community was often painted as these awful monsters. It bothered me because I always felt that despite their obviously evil leader, the majority of the people seemed kind-hearted. I had a lot of sympathy for them. Fast forward almost 15 years (time really does fly), I still feel the exact same way towards the FLDS people. It does bother me very much when the nuances of the FLDS people are simplified to some kind of moral failing instead of intensive conditioning from birth.
Thank you so much for your compassion and understanding.
It's funny because I now feel the exact opposite in some ways. This happened in 2008 I think so I would have been about 20. At the time, I remember them going onto the Today Show and Oprah and various other shows to do PR and to make themselves appear like just this normal community where nothing bad was happening. I remember feeling like, "Well, these people are nuts but if they aren't hurting anyone they should be allowed to believe whatever they want". I remember thinking that taking all of the children seemed drastic and surely they could just investigate the cases where abuse was taking place. Now, looking back especially having watched Profiling Evil and other documentaries and realizing that the one older lady was present at some of the births of the young girls Warren was r*ping and had full knowledge of this when she went on TV and lied to everyone, I feel disgusted and like they pulled a long con on the general public. I realize that not everyone knew or had a choice and I have compassion for those folks, but there are some in his inner circle who helped in these things who do have culpability. I have respect for Naomi for coming forward and telling what she did, but even she seemed to hedge an awful lot. I really enjoyed the interviews you all did with the social worker who was part of the case. I think in a lot of ways the state failed these kids too because they had no idea what they were dealing with really and hopefully people like you who help educate will help people working in these agencies to be more equipped.
@@GrowingUpinPolygamyit is nice to experience compassion and understanding from those outside of your community, isn’t it? ❤ I’m sure the trans and non binary communities would also appreciate empathy and compassion from the two of you as well. ❤️💨🪶
I was raised Catholic and absolutely love your theological discussions. It’s very interesting and I appreciate both of your perspectives.
Thank you for such a great and insightful video. I grew up in a small town Southern Baptist church. It was an African American church and I want to make the distinction because I think there are some differences in what we know as mainstream Southern Baptists and I want to speak for them. As far as leaving the church, there was never a fear or option of being excommunicated. Once your name is “on the roll” you’re a member for life. I left Christianity in 2016 and I’ve been to my old church a few times since then for funerals, family reunions, etc and no one mentioned that I’m no longer a member. I can even have a wedding there if I wanted to and I can have my funeral services there if I wanted. Also, as far as leaving that church and joining another church, you used to have to have a letter from your previous church vouching for your good character, attendance, tithing, etc; before you could become an official member of the new church or hold a position in the new church. I think things are different now. I honestly didn’t even know ex-communication was a thing until I got older. There was never any fear of being ex-communicated for me, so my experience was very different in that respect.
I think they wanted to look liberal enough to let their kids choose polygamy for the show. I think not choosing that lifestyle/belief system might have been one of the factors for Kody’s separation from his older kids.
Yeah, at the time I thought it was pretty cool that they were being so liberal with their kids but now it seems pretty clear that they were essentially lying to create good PR. If they had been as open-minded and accepting as they claim, Leon would not have had such a difficult time with the family.
True, Kody needs constant validation and support!!
The only other time I've heard of someone being excommunicated from their church that wasn't Mormon, was one of best friends. She went to a small Baptist Church in Minnesota here whole life and she became pregnant out of wedlock and they pulled her membership. They made it clear she wasn't welcome anymore. Her parents are deeply involved in the church, and it was made known to them that they were expected to create distance from my friend. It's so incredibly sad and frustrating.
Woah. I go to a Baptist church in Minnesota and we never ever would do that. I would leave a church that did that.
It's so interesting hearing you talking about your own experiences from your upbringings.
I am southern Baptist, and a huge difference in Baptist churches and a lot of other churches is that every church is self governed. There is no one ruling body telling all Baptist church what to do like the Catholic Church has the pope (there are a lot of different types of Baptist churches also, so free will Baptist is different than a southern baptist, and there can be small differences in different southern Baptist church. One may teach Calvinism, and another won’t )Each church has their own bylaws and constitution so there isn’t excommunication. You can be asked to leave the church (as in that congregation) but we can’t be like “Kay you are no longer a Baptist”.
I’m probably the biggest SW fan. I’ve watched all seasons 3 or 4 times (yes I have no life 😂) however, it was very interesting hearing your perspective on this especially about crosses, things people outside the LDS or FLDS church would never know! Great channel you are a pleasure to listen to.
OMG, me too! Have you read the book? I'm about halfway through... So incredibly sad what happened to the family.
Your face in the thumbnail cracks me up! 😂 It's so fitting considering the high strangeness of this family's decisions. 🤣
Pow-wows are ceremonial gatherings with significant spiritual and ancestral meaning. I’m sure you did not mean any disrespect with the use of that term but I think it’s important for you to know. When we know better, we do better.
well, Cody also says that he’s not like the FLDS because his group doesn’t marry minors yet when he was 22, he was courting a 17 year old to announce the courting
As a teen, Leon was trying to figure out where they fit in the world comfortably. Leon knew that they did not want the man but wanted a family. Leon tried to see themselves as polygamist. Leon chose another path. Moving to Las Vegas opened Leon's vision to alternatives that fit more comfortably. If the family had stayed in Lehi, I wonder how Leon's life journey would have been different.
I know this is an unpopular opinion but I believe Leon would have stayed Mariah and would have been gay. It’s too early to tell how leon will end up feeling. I feel it’s was too rushed to transition. She was a seeker and needed more time to settle. More time to live life. Sometimes the issue you think it is isn’t even the issue after you get out of your bubble.
@@Lovelyone1I totally agree with you… many people are transitioning too quickly and it’s creating a giant wave of detransitioners which all could have been prevented if they had been willing to wait and find out more about themselves through good therapy for a year or two.
You sound ridiculous.
In the beginning I tried giving Robyn the benefit of the doubt but this was the season that ended it. Robyn is the only adult(until recently)who will say disparaging things about the older kids. Her reaction to Hunter was bizarre, who gets upset over a 14yr old boy not being excited over a pregnancy announcement? Robyn literally held a grudge long after Solomons birth by bringing it back up again. From this point on she will talk about what kid did what to HER!
OMG you guys knocked this out of the park! Just when I thought I had enough of Sister Wives, you brought up tons of new points I had never heard, way to go ♥️♥️👍🏽
I just found your channel and have been watching your videos all day. I've been watching Sister Wives for years, and just recently went down the polygamy rabbit hole. There is so much to learn! Thanks for taking this subject on and for adding your own experiences! ❤
Interestingly, as a evangelical I was taught a very similar lesson about crosses, but with a different conclusion. We were told that it was bad to use a cross that depicted Jesus’ body on it (like the Catholic crucifix) because it was focused on the death, not the resurrection. We were told that an “empty cross” (just the cross, no body) was better because that’s supposedly a sign that Christ defeated the crucifixion via resurrection. Yes there are gaping holes in this logic, but it’s what I was told as a kid.
Great analysis and commentary! Learning so much.
This was fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing from your experiences and knowledge.
Although I haven't been a practicing/believing Catholic for years (I was raised in Catholicism) I still receive mail from church including magazines, donation envelopes, "what's happening" flyers. If you've made your Sacraments (Baptism, First Holy Communion and Conformation) you're a forever member of the church. You can go into any Catholic church at any time and it's fine. They just want you to confess your sins before taking the Eucharistic if you've missed a service. They don't ex-communicate.
They can. If you’re a public figure actively promoting something against Church teachings, they can, have, and will Excommunicate. But in everyday situations, you’re correct. They don’t bother.
@@mandarinfox1813 That's wild! I've never heard of it. Thanks for that info.
I am Roman Catholic too. I believe that they do still excommunicate, but it's only for extreme things and is done quietly and soberly. I have never seen one, but have been told of a couple in the past 40 years. Like--if a priest goes against his vows, for example.
@@mandarinfox1813excommunication come from the Catholic Church. They lightened up after Vatican 2 in I believe the late 60s early 70s, but it absolutely happened. You can still attend mass but not receive the Eucharist. And you were shamed pretty hard sitting there while everyone else goes up. Peggy on Mad Men was excommunicated.
@@MandaShellyou’re totally right. I think the word was coined in Catholicism. They excommunicate more rarely now, but before Vatican 2 you were excommunicated for all sorts of things.
Always good seeing you two . Love your content ❤
Love listening to you guys when doing random tasks. Today I listened while making Target bookshelves!
Thank you so much! 🙂
Interesting to hear you sync in on the youth group debate. I totally missed that, but I am Roman Catholic and was a co-president of a Presbyterian youth group as a teen. Our leader was totally amazing at his job and he asked those of us from other churches to speak on our faith's take on differences, but he studied and he knew what each denominations take on the subjects were himself too. There was no pressure to change or join the church--but rather a focus on fellowship and understanding one another. I really look back and appreciate that so much now.
I live for this channel. It is so interesting how you talk about your personal experiences. You two are also a beautiful couple. Thank you for doing these videos.
Thank you! 😊
Meri’s family was mainstream LDS until she was 5 and then her family joined the AUB.😊
So interesting!
That's a really fascinating point that Melissa made in video - as someone raised Catholic/who went to Catholic college, crosses were a normal part of life. We hang a cross with palm leaves on our wall.
Specifically crucifixes, with Jesus on those crosses. A lot of Protestants have crosses, without Jesus on them.
Evangelicals can be pretty intense about not going to other churches too. I was raised evangelical Lutheran and we were the "one true church". Going to any other church was described as "how much poison do you want in your cup?"
We could attend other Christian funerals or weddings but we were to be silent: no praying, singing, or listening. Because doing those would imply that we condoned the other religions that were all sending people to hell.I
I got in trouble when I was like 6 for going to a music camp at a different Lutheran church haha. My mom was a convert who didn't know how extreme the rules were.
there are many many denominations, but only one way to God through complete trust in Jesus.
Wow that is so interesting! Thanks for sharing!
Really? That sounds like Missouri Synod Lutheran, they are usually the really intense/conservative version? ELCA Lutheran is usually progressive and more aligned with the uber liberal Episcopalians. I'm so surprised and saddened by your experience.
@justinetownsend6135 They actually broke off all fellowship with Missouri Synod because Missouri wasn't as conservative as my former church 😅
My church couldn't agree on which hymnal to use (the old RLDS gray or the new Restoration blue) so we kept both! It was confusing but so many hymns were omitted from each that the bulletin had to specify which hymnal to use.
Stumbled across your channel tonight and love your content! I grew up in the south and my family attended the Church of Christ which is a very fundamentalist christian church. They don't even allow instrumental music in their worship services. The rest of my family still attends that church, but I am no longer part of it. Most families in the church didn't really have crosses around either for the same reason you mentioned. They also didn't celebrate Christmas or Easter as religious holidays because the birth and death of Jesus weren't considered as important as the resurrection. There was also something similar to ex-communication, but it was called disfellowship which was basically church leaders removing the "fellowship" of the church from someone. I could also relate to something that one of you said in the reaction video to Kody's appearance on a podcast. The church I was raised in also believe they are the only "true" religion and will be the only ones who will go to heaven at the second coming.
In Baptist and Christian churches, from my experience, I have never seen excommunication. The majority of the churches I went to would not allow you to be in any leadership role if you were actively living in sin, but they wouldn't tell you that you weren't welcome in the church at all.
Yeah, excommunication is practically unheard of in modern times. I don’t think I know of a single mainstream Protestant church that practices it.
Same… and I’ve been to a lot of churches. Even when when we had to fire a pastor for a pretty egregious sin we didn’t excommunicate him. He chose to leave but many of the church members have kept in contact with him and we send him a Christmas card every year. He can’t be a pastor anymore but it doesn’t mean he’s not still a Christian brother and Jesus died for all of us!
All of these videos are very interesting to me, because like to Sam, I was also raised in a similarly exclusive fundamental religious sect😅 they just pretend to not exist, but they’re referred to as the 2x2’s by ex members (myself included), and only refer to themselves/their group as “the friends” or “the truth” as well as ascribing to be a non denominational Christian group. Never ceases to amaze me how many similarities all these religious sects have. We called Sunday church “Sunday morning meeting” as well. A lot of similar vernacular.
I always felt heavy petting was what I do to my dog. Lots of cuddles and pats on the head. Back in my day it was called ‘making a pass’. I am in my 70’s and had no clue what a ‘pass’ was.
As for changing from 3 hours of church to 2 hours, it changed in January of 2019. Personally, I really like the 2 hours of church rather than the 3 hours🤣 but I do love the Come Follow Me program.
I am the product of a Catholic father and a United Methodist mother. I was primarily raised UM, but would attend Catholic services occasionally with Dad. My parents were pretty flexible about faith. Sometimes I think it has a lot to do with the particular family.
I know Catholicism used to excommunicate a long time ago. Nowadays it isn't really done. The Greek Orthodox church last I heard was still symbolicly excommunicating the author Tolstoy even though he is long dead. He really ticked them off. 😆 I feel bad for him though, as he was very religious.
I consider myself to be a progressive Christian, so I sometimes get into arguments with other Christians about LGBTQIA issues. Because of this, I was called an apostate by a random person on the internet. I am not sure how they can judge whether I have left my belief sytem or not when they don't know me. I guess there are just a lot of people who think if you don't believe exactly like them, you are in danger of hell.
As the wife of a trans woman who also has a few trans friends, I want to give you a heads up. I get the urge to use the name and pronouns for the time period you are talking about, but all the trans people I know find it very hurtful. One of my trans friends is a friend from highschool, and I make sure to use her current pronouns and name even when talking about our highschool days.
Some do, and some don’t, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts ♥️
Are you referring to Leon?
I can only imagine and sympathize with parents of trans kids, especially if they come out later into adulthood. You would definitely go through a grieving process, if you thought and processed your child as a girl for say, 30 years, and now they are a son, you greif for the daughter you beleived you had, and also grieve for the years you missed out on having a son. I remember Cher talking about how she would call her son by his birth name on occasion for years later… you can’t just dismiss those memories of them as your little girl… I think I would likely carry memories and refer to memories of my daughter and new memories of my son and take a lot of time to merge the two, painful on all sides, and to remember we love the soul of that person and not their gender.
@@peacefulpasturessanctuar-qc2fe even when The child transitioning is in their early teens parents go through a grieving process.
We were told last month before the primary sacrament meeting. No photos or videos. But it was on Zoom for those who couldn’t attend.
I was taught wearing a cross would be like wearing a gun. It was the weapon used to kill Christ. I’m glad you brought up how seeing a cross would make them uncomfortable because I didn’t even think about my unconscious bias and I hadn’t ever dissected why I felt that way.
On excommunication and church records: I know someone whose entire family was excommunicated at once. My best friend's father (at his core, a get-rich-quick type who had many single wives over the years) decided to go to seminary to become a Methodist preacher (my friend is still baffled by that choice). He finished and became the junior preacher at a church. His then-wife (not my friend's mother) had an affair with the preacher's son (who was 17 or 18 and in the age range of her step children). When that was discovered the entire family was officially excommunicated, including being mailed a letter with the specifics of why and who was excommunicated. His father lost his job as a consequence and divorced that wife.
I spent part of elementary and all of middle school going to a Church of Christ, the faith of my mother's family. They are an unofficial association of churches with similar beliefs, but there is no doctrinal authority or denomination leadership. I don't imagine there are records outside of individual churches and even then only of members involved in volunteer rotations, missionary work, or other stuff that would involve physical records.
Contrasted with that, my partner's family tried quite a few churches before settling on Unitarian Universalist, including Lutheran. My partner still gets mail from the Lutheran church and told me that no one who leaves is removed from their membership, even if they want to sever that connection. He figures eventually they'll stop sending him mail or his parents will move and the new owners will get their Lutheran mail forever.
As a Christian we focus on the fact that the cross is empty.
Protestants generally have empty crosses in our churches - for the same reason you mentioned - we focus on the resurrection.
Great show as always. Was their softening of the rules for the kids because the church had rejected them for going public and exposing practices within the AUB
I so enjoy this!
I am a Baptist and we do not practice excommunication because we have no church higherarchy. Each church is autonomous. However a person can be prevented from holding leadership positions for egregious or unrepentant sins. Members can come and go at will without any consequences. As for Christ's atonement, we believe in the blood on the cross not the garden blood. It's so interesting the differences we have. We also believe that there is no marriage in heaven as per Matthew 22:30. I think the Browns softened many of their beliefs to be more "mainstream acceptable" for TLC. I think it was a slippery slope for them. Watering down their beliefs may have been the beginning of their downfall.
It was very interesting hearing about the hours you'd typically spend at the church or 'practicing' your religion. It makes me wonder about how the shift was for the both of you having (presumably) so much less time spend at church if at all. Especially Melissa as you talk about being in charge of the kids singing for years. With leaving the church you must have left this whole part of your life and social calendar. Have you found that community and the activities to fill your time in other places? And maybe more generally how was the sudden increase of 'free to fill' time and what did that do with you emotionally? Also as always, feel don't feel like you need to answer. I was raised and even now live such a different life (vaguely catholic upbringing, visiting church only at chirsmas or easter in the Netherlands where the norm is to be agnostic or atheist) so your ruminations and observations are endlessly fascinating to me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and lives with us!
One of the hardest parts of leaving the LDS church was the social and activity aspect of it. We have tried to fill those voids with family time and things that bring us spiritual peace, but it was a very hard transition. Dealing with it emotionally has taken a long time and has not fully healed. - Melissa
@@GrowingUpinPolygamyoh wow, I thought you were still LDS!
@@GrowingUpinPolygamy thank you for sharing this experience, even though I’m sorry to hear you’re still hurting. Lots of love to the both of you
You two are so cute! It seems that you have a wonderful relationship. It is a joy to watch you together.
Very interesting explaining the cross and blood. I always enjoy learning new things about Mormons. I agree with you Melissa that some of the rules may have been brushed off due to the filming. I tend to believe a lot more was said behind closed doors.
I was raised Southern Baptist and there was no such thing as excommunication. Now, I never saw a situation where an open homosexual, polygamist, or transgender tried to join. That may have been a problem if they wanted to keep living that way after being saved. Some old fashioned Southern Baptists will not allow a man who has been divorced to serve as a deacon due to 1Timothy 3:2. What happened at our small church was that we were running out of men who could serve as deacons because so many had been divorced! So then it became more of, "oh that was for polygamists, it just means you can't have more than one wife at a time."
I'm glad that y'all made the comments that not everyone in the FLDS knew all the horrific things Warren Jeffs was up to. I did not realize that it was taught that marrying underage would be considered acceptable in that community because Joseph Smith or other prophets did it. That makes sense hearing it now since those prophets were held in almost a god like status from what I understand. I live in Texas and remember the raid and how upset everyone was.
Thanks for your videos! I always look forward to them!
Ok two observations halfway in:
1. Melissa, your hair looks absolutely gorgeous 😍
2. Apparently Sam’s father was just way better at polygamy (maybe far more spiritually mature?) than Kody. Heh.
Thank you❤️
I had the bribery of “Happy non Mother’s Day” gifts starting at 13. Married and 27 no kids and I still get them😂
I grew up in the Restoration (a fundamentalist splinter of the former RLDS) and the culture is no joke. I've been out several years and still struggling to get my head wrapped around what's real.
Wow so interesting! Thank you for sharing
Love you insight ❤️
I also was shocked by the “at least till you’re 18 and preferably until you’re married” since growing up Christian it was expected that if you were unmarried you were a virgin.
The big reason for excommunication from Catholicism that comes to mind is Divorce. However, they've sort of walked that back being that you can attend services but you can't partake in the sacraments i.e., communion, marriage etc. If you want to re-marry in the Catholic church you'd need an annulment from the church but that is very difficult to do.
You guys should follow Hidden True Crime and their podcasts on the Daybell case. Daybell and Vallow definitely were doing what you were saying, looking at their own history and doctrines and coming to the conclusion that the mainstream Mormon church has left its roots.
Growing up mainstream Christian I attended all different types of churches from Pentecostal to Baptist and several in between. I’ve been in Lutheran congregations, 4 square, non denominations, Bible churches… and they have never said they were the ONLY church and had the corner on exact right theology and methodology of doing things. They all taught that as long as you believe in Jesus you’re saved. The other matters were tertiary and weren’t a matter of life and death spiritually. One thing to note, though, is that they all had strong stances on marriage being between one man and one woman. I was NEVER taught to hurt, harm, hate, or even disown people who didn’t follow that but I was taught that it’s a sin, just like many other sins.
Re excommunication, i was raised pentacostal, people were excommunicated, but we weren't supposed to know why or mention their names ever again after that happened. Side note, when I was little I would tell my sister, "you better not do that, you'll get dismembered by pastor gary!"😂 bc I couldn't remember the word excommunication.
🤣🤣🤣
I don't think I've ever seen Sam angry before!! It's wild. His anger is justified, though, knowing the people and what and when they knew what Jeffs was up to.
Also, I never saw season three, maybe I should watch it! I didn't know they ever discussed their religion, that's right up my alley!
Ex communication in Catholicism is really only for very public figures that are actively teaching things that are not in line or publicly doing some horrendous thing. It is not something that your everyday member would ever encounter.
The other thing that pisses me off is that it WAS good people in the FLDS who were willing to put their eternal salvation on the line to leave their religion, so that they could sound the alarm about what Warren was doing and in fact, some of his own sisters and mothers and relatives are the ones who brought him down in court in the end. I didn’t see Kody offering to help any of those people. These whistleblowers knew that they were cutting off their entire family and still did the thing that was right. So Kody should get his facts straight.
Responding to your question @32:47. I'm a Christian (Baptist) and have only heard of very traditional churches excommunicating members. It's referred to "church discipline". Matthew 18:15-17 is used to outline the process.
I can understand the cross thing I grew up in a Baptist Church, where we had crosses, but going into a Catholic Church was very unsettling, because they had crosses with Jesus on them. Our church did not do that, because Jesus is no longer on the cross.
I grew up Catholic and only know Jesus on the cross, rosaries etc. To me it is a constant reminder of His suffering for us, to never take it for granted, and that He is always with/within me. I don't get the point of a plain cross if the religion finds the entirety of what happened surrounding it jarring.
@@Queen_G - It is because Jesus defeated death on the cross, therefore we like the look of an empty cross as Jesus is our high priest in heaven.
@@whiterose9343 We were taught in slightly different ways, but what matters is we both know Jesus within. 🩵
@@Queen_G - Hugs :)
@@whiterose9343 🤗☺️💜
Thanks for continuing to cover this and fleshing out some more of the theology for me. I didn't realize that Mormons in general had such an extreme view of their children trying out other faiths and couldn't really understand why Christine reacted the way she did. At the time I thought her reaction was really overblown. Also, I had no idea Mormons believe that the atonement happened in the garden before the crucifixion. I was always taught growing up that Jesus paid for our sins with his suffering and dying on the cross, with his blood. (I didn't realize this as a child but I guess the idea was that he was the final offering). So the idea that you would find the cross offensive or strange or that it would cause someone to feel ill at ease didn't occur to me. There's a plot line in Big Love where Nicki's son goes to a Catholic school and she has a song reaction to cross jewellery, saying it would be like wearing an electric chair around your neck (or something to that effect). I thought she was just being dramatic and maybe taking offense at the ornate decorations of Catholic spaces or something. This helps put some of these things in better context for me. I know you all said you don't want to compare Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs, but John at Mormon Stories Podcast did just that and I highly recommend folks watch those episodes. Especially for Never-Mormons, it really lays out how a lot of these things are foundational doctrines to Mormonism and practices Joseph himself did, so as much as various ones want to pretend various other groups are freak occurrences, they're not. This is why Kody comparing the LDS vs. AUB to be like Catholic vs. Protestant really annoys me too. Catholics and Protestants have a ton of variation and views, it's a wide spectrum of different beliefs with Christianity whereas Kody is comparing one kind of Mormonism to another, where they all believe the same core things.
Small suggestion. I would be interested to read what you have to say, but this is unreadable. Can you please insert some white space here and there. It would make it so much easier to read.
So, the thing about the Cross is that while the Mormon world believes the Atonement happened in the Garden, the rest of the Christian world (or at least most of it) believe that it happened on the cross.
Even though they were referred to as “Mariah” then, their name is Leon. You should now refer to them as Leon, even when referencing older episodes. Otherwise, it’s considered dead-naming. People will figure it out. Please honor other’s wishes.
The SDA church does something similar called being “disfellowshipped,” but it’s pretty hard to get there. Unfortunately it’s kind of left up to the individual congregations, so there are some congregations that can be quick to pull the trigger. Usually you can still come to church, you just aren’t allowed to have a calling or make collective decisions.
I know one denomination where someone was excommunicated…. I know of exactly one person though.
It really has to be pretty egregious for someone to get excommunicated these days. But I think a big difference between that now vs many years ago, it was generally expected that you went to a church within your parish region, or basically your community. So the priest would know you, know what you were doing, and you really didn’t have anywhere else to go and blend into the crowd.
But now if you disagree with the church you’re in, you just leave, go somewhere else, maybe run your mouth on facebook, but you’re more likely to be ignored than excommunicated at this point.
I never got the impression from Meri that she accepted polygamy because she liked Kody that much.
1:08:12 i have a feeling it wasn't us not seeing it. I think Kody had already started his gaslighting of her and made her believe she was a bad sister wife.
I don’t have any personal experience with excommunication but I worked with a woman who stated she was excommunicated from the Catholic Church because she divorced her husband without the churches permission. She told me that he was abusive but the church was more interested in them working things out. This happened to her over 15 hrs ago so I’m not sure the Catholic Church still does this.
If they didn't have their eternal life under threat, then it would probably just be the men looking for wives, not the wives wanting more. It's the mental beliefs causing the women to "want" it.
I grew up WELS and ELS Lutheran, and that church does still excommunicate people last I understood. I wasn't really "afraid" of being excommunicated, and I don't know if there's an official notice and any "removal from church records" because I don't think they keep record that way. There may be a member roster at each individual congregation that you'd be removed form but it's not such a big deal. When I started going to a different Christian church, my former Lutheran pastor called me and asked where I'm at with my faith and if I wanted to continue being a member. It wasn't a negative conversation he was positive and seemed grateful that I was still going to church, and said that he'd put down that I left on "peaceful release". Sounds good to me 🤷🏽♀️. I still get mailings from my former college and high school which are WELS Lutheran. And that's fine, not opposed to it, I'm sure if I really wanted to be removed from those mailing lists I could be.
Got a going laugh- I can't believe I am saying this SW is GOLD!
I have no personal experience, but documentaries and interviews I have watched referred to Jehovah's Witnesses excommunicating. The "church" of Scientology takes it to a whole nother level.
@AimeeBonacci
In the JW's it's referred to as disfellowshipped when you are put out by the organization. If you desire to leave you submit a letter stating your desire to disassociate.
So former Catholic here. Crucifixes, which has Christ in the cross, was a symbol that became popular during plague times in the Middle ages. People had their whole community wiped out by the black death, so people identified with the idea that God understood what a human suffered in this world. Later, for Catholics it became an emblem that defined the community as separate from the protestant reformation. Essentially it showed you were Catholic. I can say that it is still taught as an emblem that shows God's love because God does understand what a human life and death really is. I guess you could say it is an emblem of trauma bond, that life is really hard.
Not sure where you are getting your information from. Crucifixes were being used by Christians to identify themselves as early as the 2nd century. Also Protestants use them too.
Ex Catholic here, excommunication is extremely rare in modern times. It has happened to religious leaders, usually priests, nuns, bishops, etc. who were forming "cultic" practices that were considered profound heresy. It always includes teaching a group of followers these heresies and continuing to do so after multiple warning s. Essentially you have to be setting up an alternative branch of practice. A lot of groups, have been reminded of excommunication if they have gotten too focused on a saint, leader, or Mary. Regular people are not excommunicated for anything. You can't even really leave because your baptism is considered an endellable mark that never can be removed. Basically, you are always Catholic as long as you had that one baptism.
Excommunication is a big deal because it means you are outside of "the body of Christ" meaning hell. In middle evil times a leader was excommunicated it meant no sacrament would be recognized. No marriages no baptism. Baptism is a huge issue because it means hell for that soul.
When you say someone had a 'testimony ' what do you mean? I'd like to understand why a testimony is relevant and important. Thank you
I have always wondered the same thing. What do you mean when you say they had a testimony about some thing? Also, why do they drink water with the bread in the communion sacrament? Why is it not wine or grape juice? Do children also partake of the water and bread before they are joined to the church? Thank you for explaining this. Maybe you could do a video where you explain all of these interesting terminologies.
The FLDS leadership is one thing, but I've always been struck by how kind most FLDS people seem to be, from the first time I watched a documentary about lost boys.
I also don't understand the lack of compassion given what the people have been through under Warren Jeffs, and how they increasingly lost access to outside information.
I’ve been part of a church meeting at my Baptist church growing up, where they revoked membership. It was because the man and woman were living together, but refused to get married.
I’ve had another one be voted to be removed from church membership at an evangelical free church (another Protestant denomination), for again, I think un-repentant sexual sins.
Maybe you can have a little powow with Kody about his statements. He just did an interview online with Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel on Mormon Discussions. I confess I couldn't listen to the whole thing because I think he's disgusting.
The highlight was the live caller who called him out. Especially for hiding the fact that Robyns kids were never told that their bio dad is dying from cancer
@@gwendolynmorgan7803 Maybe I'll go back and listen to the end then. Thanks!
I am so glad to hear about the religion from you because the show doesn’t really say much!
Melissa and Jordan, from Jordan and McKay often sound so much alike when I’m in my Bluetooth!
Love this comparison video! As exjw I still don’t care for crosses and have a negative feeling towards them, and the fact that LDS and their branches use water for the sacrament is a total shocker! It has to be dry, unseasoned wine 🍷 and flat bread, no yeast (pure, sinless). Even tho I never partook since I wasn’t of that “class”, water and seasoned, fluffy bread seems like a huge bastardization of the emblems. But it’s interesting to hear that apparently millions of faithful Mormons feel a real bond with Christ during their sacrament.
You need to see the interview Kody did recently on Mormon Discussions. Would love to hear your reaction to it
Yes!
I feel I understand Kody better after seeing that.
I wonder if the parents were more lenient about their kids choosing polygamy, because the parents themselves had a change of faith as they got older. Janelle and Cody both transitioned from LDS to AUB
That’s the biggest thing I credit the browns with is they truly seem to have given their kids the choice. Jumping ahead I think Robyn doesn’t give her kids so much choice.
Its always easier to see things from the outside looking in, but being inside the view is narrowed. Most of the FLDS werent in the know, Warren had a small circle that saw more but were hard core supporters, theres secrets in all religions and in every church not all members are aware of. One member doing bad things shouldnt paint the entire group in the same color.
Ex-Mo here 🙋♀️
Raised in the LDS church, I was also taught that Jesus Christ was our brother. He was MURDERED on a cross, so if one of our other siblings was murdered would we wear the murder weapon around our neck?
I could never think of Sam as ever being a Polygamist. He never practiced polygamy.
As a regular Protestant, we don't talk that much about the death of Christ, and we are also taught to focus on his life, and resurrection. I think most Christians are. It's just a week recognised unifying symbol for most people to use the cross in jewelry and decorations.
unless you're in one of those churches that really cares about iconography, i forget what they're called....the crosses hold different meaning for them.
My church denomination has excommunication. From my experience it is very rare and a last resort, but it does happen.
I was not raised with any religion really and none of my friends were religious, but a lot of us had the no dating until 16 rule. I think it might be a societal thing for a lot of people, just like a good rule of thumb.
Senior Brown is what I will call him now.
Also, very interesting that you call communion “sacrament”. Water is also never used in Christianity. If not wine, then grape juice.
Ive just subscribed today and already watched loads of your videos especially the sister wives recaps (my guilty reality tv pleasure)
You asked of other religions that cut members off and oddly enough it was a video on scientology that also practice this that led me to your channel.... his channel is growing up in scientology, a collaboration between your channels would be fascinating as you also spoke about discipline and keeping records, which I don't know many religions that keep as many records as scientology and Mormonism.
Scientology isn't classed as a religion in the UK although there are "churches" in London and a few other cities, the LDS church however is found in a lot of places including my town although the only people I know who attend are Americans here on missions (im sure there are people from the town who do attend, I just don't know of any) I did attend once with a friend as a teen when some of the missionaries were helping her mum during poor health.
The record keeping is fascinating to me and as someone who loves genealogy comes in extremely helpful, one of the last people from the LDS church to come to my door had the same surname as me which is extremely rare so I'll have to do some research as unfortunately it was just before lockdown so i never heard anything more from them which they were planning on doing.
Great channel, keep up the great work
I don’t know about Catholic excommunication but I asked to have my records removed when I converted and they refuse to do so. That’s where the phrase “once a catholic always a catholic” comes from. There was a brief period a few years ago where it was allowed but I guess the hemorrhage was too large.
Sooo interesting!
They are not going to remove you because especially if you come back they need to know your records. No churches remove you in various Christian religions actually because it is a sacred record. You might need it pulled to show you were baptized in the future.
@@love2sing20101 who would ever need to know that? I’ve been rebaptized in my home church.
Not arguing I just don’t understand the train of thought.
I was raised in a traditional Pentecostal Church of God, and watched the generational change where my great grandmothers generation believed it was vain, prideful, and greedy to wear any form of jewelry other than a plain wedding band started to lighten up to allow engagement rings and small brooches. No earrings, no necklaces, long skirts, and absolutely no cutting your hair. It’s interesting to see the similarities of offset Christianity and the FLDS in particular.
As a former catholic, excommunication is a thing. But not something that would happen to ordinary members to my knowledge. You more learn about it in a historical context. But it still happens, mostly to clergy who break the rules. Like a nun who allows an abortion in a catholic hospital or a priest who tried to ordain women as priests.
I´m a Lutheran from Finland and I've never heard of anyone being excommunicated from Lutheranism. LDS church does some unique stuff that other churches mostly don´t I guess.
That’s because the LDS church is a cult, not a church. When a “church”tells you to put anything you don’t understand on the shelf and forget about it that’s not a church.
Really? Wow, it happened all the time in my Lutheran church in the US. We were required to agree with the church on every doctrine, vote the way we were told to in elections, attend all the required church/ chapel services, marry within the church, avoid the secular world (which included other Christians and Lutherans), etc. in order to keep our membership.
The board of spiritual care would start harassing us after a week of missed services. Not answering their calls would get you excommunicated.
Also raised Lutheran, in the US. The most famous case I'm aware of where it even came up at all was with Dylan Roof, who was a member of a Lutheran church who committed a mass murder in a local Black church. The denominational head released a letter that boiled down to saying "Yes, he is one of ours. It's clear we failed in our job to teach him how utterly unacceptable his actions are to God, to us, and to the rest of the world, and we are so very sorry." So EVEN THEN they didn't excommunicate him...which honestly I agree with. If you feel like you have the truth and claim to care about the eternal well-being of others, cutting someone off from the community of the truth should be an absolute last resort.
Even in our Catholic Churches, we weren’t filming during Mass. not until Covid really. Maybe at Christmas at the Vatican they filmed.
I did see Midnight Mass from the Vatican, and I remember during the 70’s watching Mass for Shut-Ins on TV. Of course, they couldn’t take part in COmmunion, but at least they heard the readings,etc.
I know that excommunication exists within the Catholic Church, but I have never ever heard of a regular person actually getting excommunicated. My guess (though I'm not certain) is that this is something that happened in the past, when the Church had more of a governmental type of power or perhaps when somebody is being extremely belligerent. I know that Martin Luther (of the 95 Theses fame) was excommunicated.
that checklist to be a good person sounds about right. I knew mennonites and being a kind, caring person was so far down the list of important things. Because they cooked the food and wore the clothes, so they were good.
As a Catholic we are also taught that the Resurrection is the most important day of all the religious holidays. Christmas is bigger due to commercialism but Easter is more meaningful because of the miracle that Jesus rose from the dead. I always preferred crucifixes that show Jesus with his arms open wide to symbolize his Resurrection. I always felt too sad to have a crucifix that depicted the suffering and dying. Love your channel as a Sister Wife fan and also enjoy learning about your religious upbringings/journeys.
I was raised Catholic, and every crucifix I've ever seen depicts Jesus' suffering - halo of thorns, hands and feet nailed to the cross.
@@Queen_G Of course, I've seen them as well. At church, in homes, and as jewelry etc. But I also have seen them with Jesus with arms open. I prefer these. Your experience doesn't negate mine. Google it, there are plenty of images with open arms.