WHY AREN'T YOU PLAYING SMALL SCALE WARHAMMER?
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- Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2024
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Lets try and get 10mm 6mm wargames populer again my videos seem to be very popular but why arnt there any big companys making any now? i love small scale and everyone i talk love the idea so why isnt it Bigger
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I'm interested in small scale. When Warmaster came out I was overjoyed because I could finally buy, build and play the giant High Elf army I wanted, but could never afford.
I still have mine in a box. It was the first time I ever wanted to play high elves (I played wood elves in fantasy). Warmaster was a very enjoyable game.
Phasing out Epic was a huge disappointment. I believe they did that to sell larger models at higher prices.
I mean make sense they consider themselves a model company first
I don't have much time for gaming or hobbying, so I've got into 5 parsecs from home, a really fun solo game with a small crew and I've done that in 15mm. Means I can fit everything I need for the game into a small box on a shelf and it's cost me next to nothing.
Same story here - it's great having a wargame you can comfortably take on holiday with you on the train!
Sadly, that is the problem. It costs next to nothing. No profit in it?
@@aslskfan1 definitely, I'm sure that's why GW don't push smaller scale games. It's a shame though, of course GW would make less on 6mm or even 3mm models for truly epic battles, but it would all be extra profit as most 40k fans would buy those scale armies in addition to their 28mm collections, not instead of.
5 parsecs has so many different optional terrain features from the planet styles and types of missions. Do you have generic terrain for it in the box?
@@allmyguitars28 exactly, I have a a few mat options, a wasteland, an ice planet and a Mars style with a bunch of generic printed paper terrain, a few homemade buildings and scatter bits. I can't recreate all the options in the game for sure, but it's good enough for me.
Warmaster is an excellent game and with the mass 3d printing options available, easier than ever to get into it. Also, Josh has the most luxurious mane I've yet seen on a bloke.
It's because of you I've just sold off stupid amounts of hero scale and started printing tons of 15mm. I painted an entire unit in an hour and omg it was so freeing!!
Great video! Recently started experimenting with 15mm 3d Printed models. Gives a great balance between units on the table and detail of those units.
I really liked Space Marine; it had a really interesting ruleset, and the scale - sure, the minis didn't have a lot of detail, but it felt much more like commanding an army. You were fielding companies of troops, not a few squads.
The big issue with the minis was basing; few materials scaled well, and the scultped 'base' on the mini, which then glued into the larger 20x20mm bases made it really easy to fuck up, so maybe the larger 10/15mm scale - and maybe mating a peg from the foot into a hole in the base instead - might improve matters in that direction.
I love small-scale gaming for a multitude of reasons, perhaps the highest is because it fulfills a "battle commander war tent" feeling. As to why companies do not do it, I can see the business model behind it. The profit margin is lower on smaller scale models. You can charge a higher percentage markup for 32+ mm because there is an appearance of more value and you need to spend more to be able to play.
Give Dropzone Commander a go, its improved in its later editions and has some really fun ranges at a good price. The game is fast and easy to play but also makes you think about what your doing. The lore is very interesting to read through too.
The terrain plays a massive role in the game. The carboard scenery produced by TT Combat goes well with the game but it also really encourages you to go to town with your own 3d models. It does scale well for other Sci-Fi games in 6mm/10mm still.
Dunno if someone has beaten me to it but checkout Vanguard Miniatures - good amount of "not gw" Scfi in 3mm, 6mm and 15mm. I also think that the reason GW stopped is a combination of people look for proxies rather than playing their premiums, plus they cant charge enough - last time round you were buying a company + of space marines for £5 - a couple of boxes and you dont need any more...
Great video. I play only Epic at 6mm, completely ignored the Adeptus Titanicus, because like you say GW...financial reasons....yeah.
I've played on small tables at 6mm, using half a table tennis table so 4ft by 4ft. Having warbands against each other rather than full armies. So more troops and maybe just one titan, or two small ones.
As regards miniatures, my go to is Vanguard miniatures as they've been filling the 6mm sci fi void that GW left open.
Really glad this is getting more exposure
Is the original Epic models also considered 6mm? I have a bunch of old stuff. Are Titanicus models the same scale?
@@House-Atreides all the epic stuff up to 2018 is 6mm. Adeptus Titanicus version 2 (not the 1988 original) is 8mm
@@DJPeteypie I thought the comment was that a space marine would be 8mm, so a normal human was closer to 6?
@@davidsifford Yes, you are right, it is 8mm tall Marine, so in scale Epic and AT2018 are around the same at least for infantry. Epic scale is variable like the Rhinos in wh40k not fitting 10 Marines in and similar.
@@DJPeteypie AT2018 is not part of Epic and it is the fourth AT (fifth if counting Titan Legions)
Dropzone Commander is definitely one to check out. I was also really interested when it first came out, but similarly I couldn't get anyone I know interested. But it's one to look at it's got a range of factions, unit types, and plastic starter armies. Also worth checking out Battletech Alpha Strike (the large battle/streamlined version of Battletech). Supposedly new tank/plane models are coming with a kickstarter in autumn, and a new Alpha Strike starter set.
It is an excellent game, I had one other player locally for a while but they moved away and now my poor Scourge sit in a box :(
Dropzone command is really great. The best way to get people into a game unfortunately is to have 2 full armies and convince them to give it a try. Battletech is making a huge comeback lately.
I printed 6mm space marines and play horus heresy games using the 8th ed apocalypse rules. The rules are simple and since you don't remove infantry individually its perfect for basing multiple figures to a stand.
Did you downscale the STLs?
Same! I printed the IG armored fist battalion I'd always daydreamed about. And played Apocalypse 2018 and had a blast.
I play oads of small scale stuff, it's my preferred scale really. 6mm Epic and Warmaster and Blitzkrieg Commander, 10mm Warmaster and Dropzone Commander, 15mm Flames of War, l'Art de la Guerre, Mortem et Gloriam. There's options out there...you just tend to have to be the driving force behind building a community for it with your game playing locals.
My group (Utah, USA) still plays Warmaster (Ancients and Medival) regularly. We also have a tourney every year around Christmas time and bash away with 4-6 participants, playing a round robin format.
Because GW can't reuse the minis in other systems. However with GW doing Titanicus and Aeronautica epic may be a possible returning game in the future.
Spent my morning playing Epic, and post-game chatting about plans for doing Minihammer. Warcry and Blood Bowl are the only ‘big’ scale games I play these days... keep up the good work guys, enjoyed the chatter 👍🏻
Can we get Josh to stand on top of a caravan and play master of puppets?
I’d like to see this.
I can't recommend enough the old Laserburn 15mm minis that you can still get from Alternative Armies, such a big range and so much character. The old 15mm Traveller minis are great too but I think they are no longer in production.
I still flick through my old Warmaster rulebook with fond memories. I only discovered recently that the game is alive and well, so I’m planning on putting together a new army and finding some players.
Been working on my 10mm Age of Fantasy: Skrimish stuff lately. Love it. I think in the age of social media, people and companies want to push miniatures that are highly detailed and look good all painted up. I think this obsession has been bad for the smaller scale stuff.
Edit: Also, worth noting that you can convert anything from 28mm to 10mm by simple swapping out the inches that 28mm scalew ill use for centimeters.
In 5 parsecs the author suggests changing movement to cm and leaving weapon ranges in inches. That works really well if you're like me and find weapon ranges in most games to be absurdly short.
@@wurzella1 Oh, I like that. Gonna give it a try later in some games.
Do you live in the NE of the UK? I also want to do 10mm fantasy with OPRs
The fact that just swapping inches and centimetres is all it take for downscaling, it more and more begs the question.
Let’s be fair, we all want more armies. But we can’t afford all the 28mm models we would like. Let alone store all of those models.
I like Age of Fantasy. Simple and fun.
I am thinking about maybe doing 10-15mm or 6mm dnd stuff.
Like, the problem with 30mm dnd stuff is that you can have all that epic terrain eat up your entire living room.
With 6mm scale you can fit an entire town's worth of terrain into a tiny fraction of the space.
I would suggest that part of the problem is that while many smaller game companies and developers make games for 6mm and 10mm minis - or scale agnostic games like Fantastic Battles - they do not get much of air time among influencers. Not because there is anything wrong with the games, but because:
a) the budgets for advertising are much lower than the dominant companies, and
b) the minis do not photograph as well and therefore makes for less eye candy on a video.
I loved Dropzone Commander back in the day too. Still have loads of stuff. Was a real spectacle on the table - and I still have a load of scenery which I will work on. These days it's owned by TTCombat. I think when they took it on, they found it harder to sort than they were expecting, a second edition proved harder to implement than expected and then Covid hit, so it didn't have a very auspicious relaunch. But they've brought out some really nice new stuff and I look forward to going to an event again some time in the coming year.
Would be great to see you check it out. As I say, there's lots of scope for the most amazing terrain.
There's a niche there for 6-10mm 40k or the "serial numbers filed off" equivalent. I've liked the idea, and wanted to play with it. It means bigger armies, more, larger machines on and potentially over the board. Epic was popular because of what you could do with it. Imagine Apocalypse or even a regular 40k game at 10,000 points, with 10mm minis on a board. Or even Horus heresy. You could do some real big reenacting of various battles with it.
I lack a 3D printer and the space to keep one, and finding people that sell not40k minis that small is difficult. We need more people out there who are willing to try to fill this gaming niche.
6mm 40k already exists, it's called Epic 40,000, or Epic Armageddon, or NetEpic. Games Workshop released it in the 90;s, and discontinued it in the early 2000's, but there's loads of minis on ebay, 3d printable or proxied to get started.
I have been playing One Page Rules Age of Fantasy Regiments using 10 mm Forest Dragon minis inspired by your earlier vid. I introduced some friends to it and now I am in the process of printing two more armies for one of them :).
I'm doing exactly the same thing but in 15mm. This is awesome!
Scale Snobbery is the word. But if you want 10mm goto Pendraken / Kallistra. 6mm goto Heroics and Ros / Irregular Miniatures / Ground Zero Games who do there rules as a free download now. / Alternative Armies / Brigade Models 15mm and a lot smaller. Eureka models uk 10mm & 15mm / Lancer Miniatures 10mm / Magister Millitum all scales / Little big men studios Transfers for shields. There are plenty out there but 'Scale Snobbery' you see it a lot in the model railway world. I'm working on early WW2 French in 6mm and 1/3000 WW1 dreadnaughts from Navwar. It's out there just people need the 'G' word scales to fall from there eyes.
It is a thing, especially for historical. Just look at Pendraken, GHQ and Heroics & Ross for their popularity. Small scales are just not in high street stores as small scales aren't showy enough in a window probably (even though a mass battle diorama would draw people in for sure).
I think the biggest reason is that wargamers (who aren't historical wargamers) tend to game in rulesets or ip:s. That's why you see comments like "If GW would release x-scale models i would buy them" or "why don't gw bring warmaster back, i really liked that game".
I think 10mm fantasy is in pretty good shape and there is some nice "base agnostic" rulesets out there for mass scaled battles (like Fantastic Batlles and Sword and Spear Fantasy etc). Warmaster Revolution is a solid community based endevour but that is also a commitment to the ruleset and basing to play (not to mention the amount of models you need).
I brought a load of 15mm Ww2 plastics to do Bolt Action on a 3ft x 2ft board as I have limited space. I've also started getting into The Strength and Honour rules but with a 1/3 smaller base sizes. Both of these games fit nicely on my standard 3x2 levelup gaming table.
Played 2nd Ed Space Marine back in the 90's, absolutely loved it. Easy to form an army with the cards, simple rule set, yet far more focussed on manouvres, terrain and tactics than 40K. About 5/6 years ago I got back into 40K after a VERY long break but the latest edition just killed it for me, too much rules bloat, the prices, the codexes, the FAQ's every week... just got too much. So in lockdown I decided to get my Epic stuff out of the loft and repaint the lot and start playing again. Have a look at NetEpic - they are keeping the game alive, its so much more accessible than 40K. as for models, obviously 3D printing and second hand stuff on eBay is there but theres lots of other companies out there doing great small scale stuff - Vanguard Miniatures, Onslaught Miniatures, TUTB, Troublemaker Games... so many good proxies out there now that are better than the original sculpts in many cases. And now with Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica you can add some lovely new models to your Epic forces that actually look at the right scale for the game against troops! :)
I see a good few comments that 15mm is 'harder to paint'. It's not, it just requires a different approach. You can't painting them in the same way tou paint your 28mm models as the detail isn't there. Hell, 90% of what you paint on your 28mm+ models isn't seen once the model is on the table.
Anyway, I love 15mm. It's God's own scale as far as I am concerned. It is big enough that you can still see what is what on the table and looks good when painted but small enough that you can get a real feel of the size of battles with it.
What he said!
Yeah, i put the same effort painting 10mm as i paint heroic scale minis and it took me half-year finishing a Warmaster dwarf army.
Khurasan Miniatures, Pico Armor, Ground Zero Games, Alternative Armies, Splintered Light miniatures, Rebel Minis, Copplestone Casting
I already made myself a 1,000 point resin printed scions, orks, craftworls, and sisters armies at 12.8mm scale so I can use cm instead of inches since the little 40k video was released. I love them so much and have played 40k and one page rules with them. Thanks so much for this, keep pushing!
GZG ( Ground Zero Games) has three rules that intertwine, Full Thrust ( space ship combat) Dirt Side 2 ( 6mm mass combat) and Star Grunt ( 28mm skirmish) and each has rules to include the other two rules. Star Grunt can easily be resclaed to be a 6mm skirmish game.
I recently bought the horus heresy collection which I'm excited about, but If GW started doing what you guys did with 12-15mm 40k stuff, I'd buy that stuff in a heartbeat. The idea of having full size armies in a more portable aspect, easier storage capability, I'd love that more. I sent your guys video of tiny 40k to my buddies who recently got back into it, and they all loved the idea and started printing their own 15mm models. This should be a lot more popular !
When you consider the amount of Black Library books which feature massive scale battles with infantry lines spanning miles, hundreds of tanks, dozens of Titans etc, having an epic scale version of 40K which could enable that sort of fighting to take place would make sense. Being able to play a few thousand points of Space Marines is one thing but if you could an Apocalypse style game but with pocket sized units it would be incredible. You could recreate massive battles like the drop zone massacre without needing a table dozens of feet square
It feels like the 6mm system, or even 3mm, should be the core system for a universe like 40k, with current 40k being the skirmish ruleset.
I can easily see a 40k ecosphere where 3mm, 10/15mm and 28mm could all exist side by side for different scale rulesets.
Seems like they would be more fun and it's not as if most 40k fans would gravitate towards the cheaper, smaller scales, most would collect armies in all scales.
We are playing OPR Regiments at 10mm and the rule adjustments are in the rulebook... it's fun and my army was painted really fast and it's stored in two cookie tins. But it doesn't have the hundreds of minis on a base as Luke wants it.
Minis are kind of hard to find as well and most armies in our club are printed. But there were great pictures on the digital box to get excited. My tomb kings look amazing!
Josh's hair is metal as hell! Good effort. I'm setting up my 3d printer to do 10/15mm wargaming with some friends that want to play but find the idea of a full heroic scale army really overwhelming.
That’s a great point. Whenever you get someone excited about, let’s say AoS or 40k, they pretty much back off when you tell them about buying and building an army. Let alone paint all of those minis as well. If you could paint up an entire small scale army in a day or a weekend, that’s way more approachable.
@@CronosVids Yes! I think it's great as well for people who just struggle with finishing things in general. I'm one of those people who put 100% effort in to planning and obsesses over a project and then I get like 50% of the way and just lose all interest. Probably why I have about 50 hobbies :D This way it doesn't give you enough time to lose interest in your goals.
hope you enjoyed making this episode as much as i enjoyed watching. very cheerful.
yes, board game versions that are easy to play.
I started gaming in the 80's, playing Traveller when it was 15mm and the striker game system was used for large combat. This was when Rogue Trader was released, when it was supposed to be 25mm. Both systems are now 28mm! 15mm figures were readily available with many companies producing them in all eras.
Probably pushing 32mm or more on 40k stuff now!
Pendraken in the uk is amazing. I tried for years to get into Napoleonic gaming at 28mm never got further than a brigade. A year after restarting having found Pendraken 10mm I have a full corps for French and 1815 Allies. I play regularly with GdA. Pendraken have huge list (I think 6000 codes!) covering ancient to modern and including fantasy. Most codes have pictures and full description of packs. So cheap to build an army from them. 10mm individual figures. Check them out Luke. They do sample packs for free on request- just email them through the website.
I used to play 40k micro using my old epic minis, just home brewed some squad selection rules, mostly just treating them as whole units with multiwound profiles, and different amounts of shots, or +1str etc depending on the loadouts, and using inches for guns, cm for movement
Guys you need to record one game of the small scale battle. It could be more attractive. I really like your idea and support you guys in this way. I am waiting for my 3d SLA printer so I could do the same. Thanks for inspiration and movement!
I loved playing Warmaster back in the day, using partly made armies in either Hordes of the Things or Mighty Armies until they were large enough to use in Warmaster.
My favourite scale might be 15/18mm, with Splintered Light miniatures doing some amazing Redwall inspired miniatures.
My kids cut their wargaming teeth, so to speak, on 6mm fatnasy armies from Irregular Miniatures using Hordes of the Things. If one really wanted to take advantage of the strenghts of 6mm, though, it would have been more visually appealing to use 6mm in bulk on the 60mm width bases recommended for 25mm, so that each of the approximately 12 stands had some visible “mass” to it. One of the advantages of 6mm was that even the kids could create multiple armies, so that my older one eventually went off to college with four armies and terrain in a box, in case he could find/recruit some gamers.
@@robertdean52 that's awesome! Yes we did some 6mm Fantasy armies. We also did some 6mm War of the Worlds HOTT armies in 6mm too.
60mm bases looked great and game you the opportunity with 15mm to create mini dioramas.
If you can find this post Luke, I worked for GW back in early 2000's in marketing so my NDA is well expired (Suck it GW!). I can answer some of your questions because I was ALSO a fan of Epic and all the specialist games and I would talk to Jervis Johnson every time he came to the US about why GW was killing his games. (If you don't know JJ was the ONLY upper gw management interested in keeping epic, necromunda, Mordheim, and BFG alive)
1. Why did GW stop doing small scale games? The big reason back in the day was production scale and LOTR. The upper management at GW were absolutely obsessed with having ONLY 3 tentpole games to support. They went on and on about it. They didn't have enough writers, modellers, or casting production and they HAD to make LOTR work because they paid out the ass for it and the cost of producing all the intro sets required by the contract was astronomical. Like if LOTR tanked GW could have gone under. So production on secondary games was stopped or given to Forgeworld who were basically a separate local casting house at the time. They basically licensed from GW to make models for whatever scraps of lore GW were not going to use. Not on GW books financially.
2. But why did GW kill the games or never bring them back? Luckily the LOTR game kicked ASS but guess what? It totally killed Warhammer Fantasy sales. The numbers were basically linked where LOTR went up Fantasy went down. But it also brought in NEW people that then picked up 40k. So GW management looked at epic and thought, "What if Epic is keeping people from playing 40k, and we don't even MAKE epic models anymore! Why are we expending resources on (specialist games) keeping people from playing our big 3 games?". So they killed them.
3. Why doesn't GW bring back specialist games or smaller scales? Because it is a bad business move unfortunately. This is beyond my time but I suspect that their market research has show it is better for them to release new models into existing games than to make duplicate game scales. Re-creating 40k in 15mm would not drive more sales for regular 40k. It would just be shifting income from one line to another with the added expense of re-tooling. Notice that their big alternate smaller scale game is Kill Team and it uses models straight from their existing line. Also it is shown that releasing a new item into an existing line will energize sales across that ENTIRE faction. Put out a kill team with one new model and an ancient sprue of another random army and BOTH armies will get a sales boost along with the release.
ps. I applaud your dedication to small format gaming. I am getting into 10mm Warmaster again thanks to Forest Dragon miniatures and their excellent print stls. Your contributions on the 40k in 15mm facebook group are also appreciated.
@@GeekGamingScenics Make sure you try Imperius Dominatus. Its a group that incorporated epic infantry and tanks into Adeptus Titanicus. Really solid modern epic game.
Great insight. Thanks for sharing. Facts!
Epic Space Marine was arguably the best thing GW every made.
This. Right here. Full stop.
would love to get into small scale gaming either fantasy, Sci-fi or real world with huge mini armies
Since the 90s I've had occasional historical and fantasy armies at small scale... I currently have 6mm scots irish and a couple of 15mm historical armies for DBA which has always been fun... the 6mm army would be played on a 1 foot square table so nice for small scale there. Hoards of the Things was the fantasy version of it where we would play at 15mm and it would fit on a 2 foot square board. Epic was always fun back in the day and what we would do is get the space hulk boards downsized so we would have a tiny board with epic terminators and some epic sized genestealers all with rare earth magnets as the bases so we could have an mini space hulk game that couple be played on the front of the fridge.
I get so excited to whenever I see channels like yours talk about small scale wargaming! I know people have enjoyed playing games like Bolt Action that are normally 28mm with smaller models particularly 1/72 (which I believe is around 18-20mm). Additionakky, The Red Box has a fantasy range very suitable for MESBG and a zombie apocalypse line both of which are 1/72 models. From what I have seen they look very cool. Additionally, Stargrunts is a very interesting small scale scifi wargame, and have a miniature line that goes with it. I am looking forward to you guys diving more into this! Hopefully with more content creators moving in this direction, interest among the community will grow.
I’ve never understood why more 40K fans didn’t want to play Epic. I know the minis aren’t as pretty but there’s nothing quite like thrill of setting up a huge army of infantry, tanks and Titans and feeling like your decisions will determine the outcome of a huge battle! Anyone considering it should give it a go, especially when there are so many options to get back into it! ~ Gordon
When mechanicus released, I genuinely thought it was a tee up for bringing back epic at a slightly larger scale.
@@aaron1037 Yeah, I thought that as well! It would have been great to see a new generation playing rather than just old die hards like myself! ~ Gordon
I think the issue with that is (and man i would love a return of epic)
1. GW considers themselves first and last a miniature company and i have heard they consider epic to be...beneath them artistically. As in models be simple and ugly compared to 28mm
2. Because of 1 they consider modelers and painters to be their primary customer. Customers that dont want to paint epic scale stuff
@@PandorasFolly Excellent point! I don't enjoy painting and have always been more about actual gaming, so that probably is a big factor in why I gravitate towards Epic rather than 40K. ~ Gordon
Very valid points about the traders at Jo6. Their point of sale presentation was very poor if you didn't know what you were looking for.
Small scale games is a bit of a misnomer. Either change from inches to cm or halve distances and most games will work fine. As for basing just use your imagination its really not difficult.
Small scale gaming rocks.
You'd think a simple little catalogue with photos of painted minis wouldn't be that hard to put together. Find a few smaller RUclips channels to send freebies to and they could probably get a lot of it painted up for free.
@@wurzella1 A lot of these manufacturers are really micro businesses. My suggestion would be not to let it put you off but look at their websites (which are normally pretty decent) and order online. They deserve your support.
People have just become conditioned to buying 32mm stuff and over paying for miniatures. If you're not prepared to look more widely more fool them.
@@Dice_Dad I totally agree, I'm all in on 15mm now and really enjoying trawling obscure websites to find just the right proxie for orks or whatever. Feels better knowing my hard earned pennies are going to enthusiastic hobbyists rather than Big James.
Guys, loving your video and agree whole heartedly with you. I started out gaming 28mm WW2 and for the same reasons as you've said i have moved to 15mm Vietnam and 1/600 Air, mainly because of time for hobbying and storage.
For 15mm SciFi check out Ground Zero Games, John carries a great range.
Also how does Josh find the time to do this and star in Stranger Things?😉
Keep up the good work, much love!
It's a busy life but somehow I manage hahaha
I prefer full size Epic Armageddon table instead of mini W40k. For me the best thing about Epic is represent massive battles and use Titans, Warmachines and planes that I think don't fit in the W40k scale.
I think GW is reluctant on releasing anything that could predate sales from W40k. Why would GW release Epic Armageddon when they are marketing really bizarre things like W40k Armageddon? which of course is a higher order of magnitude more expensive than Epic Armageddon.
I've been really enjoying the content you've been putting out around smaller scale stuff, this video style is great! A chat and a chill (it's quite funny seeing you get pissed as the video goes on 🤣) Damn you for making me consider a patreon sub haha. Looking forward to see what comes out from companies and model makers.
Cheers guys, keep up the great content
I recently made a set to play Gaslands with micro machines. A bunch of desert rocks from XPS foam, slap a grimy paint job on 6 cars, print the templates onto card scaled to 70%, jobs a goodun. Felt great to knock out a complete game in single day.
One of my grandkids has far too many micro machines, I'm sure sure he wouldn't miss a few...
I have wanted to get into wargaming forever but the space/time/money required is the killer for me. This solves all those issues. There's got to be countless gamers like me out there.... ready to play but lacking the stuff to get us going.
I remember being in high school when warmaster came out and my friends and I all got into it and loved it. The mechanic of activating units through leadership tests made for very suspenseful games.
I searched ebay for years trying to find a copy of The Battle of Five armies by GW because I knew it was a similar rule set.
Looking at the movement rules now and how the formations have to move makes my eyes glaze over. It might not be bad if I gave it an honest go but it seems complicated to learn and complicated to try and teach to get others interested.
I love the idea though and I love that you're taking up the banner. I look forward to seeing where this goes!
would love to see this scale come back! I'm a huge fan of titanicus.
One of my favourite games is Warmaster ancients, 10mm, most of my collection is Pendraken Miniatures - just bril
Interesting point about the packaging; it's a massive cost to outlay for those smaller firms. GW style packagimg can end up as a bit of a money pit. I'm one part of Grenzer Games, and a designer, I'd love to have pretty box art but its a tough one to price alongside the minis. Minimum print runs, boxing up and shipping all adds and it can adversly effect the final retail prices. Pretty boxes for small scale minis would be an awesome addition for that shelf appeal 100%
I think I can probably speak for a lot of smaller scale gamers when I say we appreciate what businesses like you do, and that you're not trying to get our kids' entire inheritance. I think a decent website with some nice photos is more than enough nowadays, nobody wants to pay 3 times the price for a pretty box.
Small Warhammer might not be getting bigger but Josh's hair is. I wish I had half of that
Only this weekend I have begun a 10mm Army of Bretonnia for some Warmaster Revolution that has peaked interest at my gaming club. I have used 3D printed miniatures from Forest Dragon. I think. They are bloody awesome and I am actually enjoyed a more relaxed approach to painting them. I am also thinking that these can be used for KoW.
Love this idea. Would be super interested in being able to play proper 40k, but in a smaller space like my own apartment. Kill Team gets a ton of play from me just because it’s easy to play in any size environment, and being able to get the larger scale game experience, without the space investment/monopolization, is really exciting to me.
I'm really interested in this topic. Honestly I think it can work with A) marketing behind it and B) a good ruleset. Like so many other concepts aside from the core GW products, you have to hit a critical mass of interest to start to get more meaningful traction. That aside, I think the main reason it hasn't been more popular is what you guys touched upon- the trend in the industry has been to make models larger- we're more into 32mm territory than 28mm at this point. GW is pushing the aesthetics that comes with larger scale. If you go smaller scale I you probably lose some of the marketing appeal of the larger scale miniature. But again I don't think it's impossible... you need to focus on the spectacle of the larger battlefield and terrain like you're talking about with the 6mm games. I will note that at Adepticon I asked the Dropzone Commander folks about why they didn't have a fantasy line, and mostly they just said they were busy with the existing product lines they offer. I think part of the problem there is sci fi will offer things like tanks and mechs that look good at that small scale... there is perhaps less of a fantasy equivalent. I mean an ogre or troll is kind of the equivalent and that's not as much a core fantasy troop type as tanks/mechs are to sci fi.
Dropzone Commander is definetly worth checking out !
The ruleset is great, I like it better than Epic Armageddon or NetEpic so far.
The minis are great, the faction identity strong, and there is enough lore to get you interested in the universe.
It also has its brother game in Dropfleet Commander, representing huge space battles.
On the fantasy side, Warmaster is thriving with 3D Printing, and the ruleset are good :)
I've got a medium size Warmaster high elves army in original GW metal models I mostly bought in the early 2000s, and recently added more blisters to round it out and painted. I enjoyed getting back into the scale so much I made a large 3d printed Bretonian army I need to get painted. The printer paid for itself in savings with just that army vs buying metal models. One of my gaming friends that used to collect lizardmen just started painting some Warmaster lizardmen in the typical GW cookie scheme. I think the scale is starting to get a resurgence of interest for sure. It's very easy to collect and finish painting an army.
Check out Ground Zero Games(GZG) and Alternative Armies, they both have extensive 15mm sci fi ranges. GZG do figures in 25mm, 15mm and 6mm. For superb 6mm sci fi also check out Vanguard Miniatures based in the UK.
A benefit of the Shaker & Spoon boxes which I was surprised to see not mentioned is that they come with a mass of free basing material.
And a nice wig! 😋
Well, depending on taste...
when warlord did the epic scale stuff for there black powder system, there were a few interviews with John Stallard were he explianed that the issue that gw got out of epic and warmaster because it wasn't that much cheeper to make than the same min in 28mm given that labour that was the main cost not materials, but there was still an exspectation that the smaller modles should be much cheaper
That shouldn't be the case any more I'd imagine. We know GW are 3d printing in house so they have that all set up. Pick a few 28mm models per unit type, reduce the detail and scale them down to 6mm on the pc and away they go. That at least maybe means they'll reconsider at some point in the future.
@@wurzella1 i mean even the move to all plastic probably changes things, the upfront capital investment in moulds is much higher but the labour is probably less of a cost over the long term.
It looked like you two had such a laugh making this. It will be interesting to see if any company except your challenge
Because GW don't support it.....like it or not they are the entry to the hobby for 90% of gamers and we just get stuck to that scale. Also whilst 3d printers are getting cheaper it's still a massive hobby purchase & time commitment which is probably still outside a number of people's access.
This unfortunately is spot on 👏🏻
Agree, wish it was more accessible.
Yeah .. the whole No support thing .. another one of GW's not so great aspects ✌️💚
Monsterpocalypse from Privateer Press is another small scale game worth looking at. Has some of that board game feel since its on a grid.
Personally I really want to do some Imperial Guard style or Beastman style armies at 6mm as well.
As for what companies are doing small scale wargames, I know that Perry Miniatures actually puts out a product called TravelBattle. An 8mm Napoleonic wargame that comes with infantry, cavalry, artillery, and officer models. All on two 3D plastic 10" square gaming boards, with plastic 3D terrain, that can be pushed together in a variety of orientations (so 16 possible battlefields arrangements).
While it's specific to Napoleonic figures, it's a way to run a complete game in a very small package.
Moreover, like with many of the plastic sets from Perry Miniatures, the company sells the component parts separately. If, for example, you want to get a bunch of the 8mm minis without getting the boards, terrain, or rules/other gubbins.
If ypu are looking for fantastic 10mm historics - give Pendraken a try. Insane detail, a tone of models and periods to chose from. And on the matter of not knowing what to get...The thing is, historic wargaming isn't a pickup style game like AoS or 40k. If you want, lets say play WW2, in the most ideal chase you should find a time period and a frontline you wanna play. Once you settled on one (yes you can just play whatever against whatever but thats not really why one would be playing historical...right?) the stuff available already shrinks. Western front eliminates a bunch of gear for Germany, takes the Soviet Union out of the equation and leaves you with a bunch of US and UK stuff. And once again, deciding on a time period limits the models available again. Would love to talk about historic wargaming with you guys but as a little nobody ain't gonna happen :D
6mm gaming is huge (excuse the pun) outside of the GW bubble. I have plenty of 6mm videos on my channel, games and reviews of figures etc, although it is historical.
As I kid I always saw the specialist games page in the GW catalogue and the epic40k pictures captured my imagination. At the time of course the lack of broader popularity scared me away.
However 15 years later and I realise that you only need persuade a single friend in order to try something new. A friend and I painted up a bunch of 6mm and were blown away by how easy they are to paint really well, and how fantastic the games look on the table. And with a wealth of miniatures agnostic rules available, there WILL be a ruleset that is exactly what you fancy.
If you are a gamer rather than a modeller, it's a no brainer on account of how quickly and cheaply you can have a new army ready.
I could just watch a whole cocktail episode with you two
I have always wanted to do a 10mm Battle of the Pelennor Fields "reenactment".
Copplestone miniatures make some nice minis, Theranos the old battle for 5 armies box from GW. And there are one or two stl companies that make LOTR stuff....knuckle bone miniatures being one, amazing 10mm orcs.
There is a fan-managed second edition of Warmaster (The small scale warhammer fantasy by Rick Priestley) called Warmaster Revolution, and it's free online. Give it a look if you're interested, it's very well done
I collect more 6mm and 10mm stuff than I do in 28/32mm anymore. It allows me to play proper battles, rather than skirmishes. It’s cheaper, easier to paint and to store and allows you to make some truly epic terrain and gaming boards than the larger scales. I like 6mm WW2 so much, I wrote my own rules - All Hell Let Loose (available on Wargames Vault) which have done well for a niche scale and period.
I've started Dropzone Commander two months ago after a four years long break. The current edition makes a lot of fun, die core sets are cheap and the quality is great.
It is a great game and I enjoy painting and playing my Resistance and especially building 10mm scale City Terrain. The game has a free rulebook and armybuilder and it is a shame, that Covid killed its relaunch after TT Combat took over. But it is still a special game: you need the classic 4x4 Table and a lot of terrain. If you want to have classic battle between armies on the ground with air support it is not the perfect game.
However, last week I took a quarter of my board to have a 2x2 battlefield and we used OPR Grim darkness. My Resistance was an ordinary human army and my scourge used rules for some space pirates. We changed inches for cm and played 3000 points. It worked really nice and was perfect for the coffee table. After that I discovered the Excellent Miniatures here in Germany offers some kind of armoured space nuns in a scale to choose. I ordered ten in 10mm and wait for them now.
It’s all about marketing basically. product / quality / gameplay is simply expected but provoking a sense of longing for something that ppl perceive as cool/immersive/new/flashy/… is what sells it. if GW was trying to sell their grey sprues in white boxes on a crappy website, there would be very little interest in them
Lee, who runs the channel “Tabletop Skirmish Games” recently made a video called “EPIC WARHAMMER PROXIES” featuring a company called “Excellent Miniatures” that’s making smaller minis. I’m pretty sure he follows your channel, so maybe he’ll reach out himself.
I would suggest looking at Grumbler Miniatures, a fairly new manufacturer of 6mm historical ranges and a recently introduced SF range.
Space Marine (Epic 2nd ed) continues to be my fav wargame!
Love the creeping in of the glassy-eyed stares and ever-longer pauses as the drinks birng on the inevitable brain-farts.
In the early to mid 90's I wanted to get into wargaming so with a limited budget it was going to be either Warhammer F.B. or Space Marine. 40K never made sense as it seemed too zoomed in and vehicles and ranges in 40k's 6x4 foot never made sense to me. I went with WFB but if Space Marine came out today I'd be all over it. Also, if the new Warhammer Fantasy was 12 to 15mm I'd be all over it too. Think it would have been a good option so it wouldn't encroach on Age Of Sigmar.
Same here with the range thing, it's a long term bugbear if mine. There's only a small handful of weapons in 40k they wouldn't be fully effective from 1 corner to the other. There are artillery pieces that can't shoot more than 150 metres!
Haven't played any games yet. But I love the look and size of 15mm armies. I'm 3d printing some models to play One page rules at half scale.
I've got into 15mm in the last couple of years just because of the amount of space I can save plus just how cheap it is! Mostly played One Page Rules but thinking of making a 15mm scaled Deadzone board and trying that next! Here's some of the miniature providers I've used in the past, I'm sure there's some I've forgotten.
Alternative Armies - they have a great range of 15mm sci-fi and fantasy, including proxies for Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, etc. One of my favourites.
Vanguard Miniatures - a lot of 6mm Epic proxies but some 15mm too including Tyranids, Orks and Space Marines also.
Ground Zero Games - an amazing range of 15mm sci-fi. Not really 40K proxies but lots of different themed militaries (New Israeli troops could easily proxy for Spartans from Halo), vehicles and even terrain bits. The ordering and postage times are magic, how they can stuff delivered so quickly can only be witchcraft.
Khurasan - some amazing 15mm sci-fi troops and vehicles - but shipping to the UK from the US is a bit of a pain thanks to Brexit now.
Brigade Miniatures - good range of 15mm sci-fi troops and tanks, some very nice terrain features also.
With a little group of friends we are still play Warmaster, both Historical and Fantasy; the last one with the Warmaster Revolution rules, all in 10 mm. Is still fun!! Very playable and affordable!! :) :)
Hey guys, check out Alternative Armies. They have 15mm fantasy and sci-fi ranges and the service is faultless.
Dropzone Commander by TTCombat needs more attention! Great art, fluid ruleset ( that is free) and the terrain and miniatures are top notch!
Alternative Armies do a great range of 15mm fantasy and Sci-fi and have a range of 6mm sci-fi as well
Pendraken. 10mm SF and fantasy.
GZG miniatures and Alternative Armies for 15mm sci fi up there as the best imho, GW will never do small scale in one of the established lines as it would really hit the sales of the current lines
Well if there’s one thing I associate with josh and Luke, it’s fancy cocktails
I keep nagging our tiny gaming group about the small-scale stuff. 28mm, especially with all the scale-creep makes so little sense to me for anything beyond a bigger skirmish game. 15mm-ish is ideal for the combined-arms stuff like 40k; you can get everything from individual troops and hero types to big stompy walkers on the table (not like Flames of War do it though, that just looks like tanks being parked at a mall). Hobby barrier is also way lower with smaller stuff, no need to paint eyes! I've seen even semi-experimental 6mm tables for KillTeam and Necromunda, but even if you don't go just that small, you can really build some epic tables with cool terrain on a manageable-sized boards. And when you do go big; with rolling landscapes and discreet towns and castles, man, that's the absolute dream!
Gaslands also comes to mind; tables are really just race tracks there, but some are really cool!
Hope to see some terrain content for "god" scales from you guys! :)
This is exactly how I feel, 28mm for skirmish, 15mm for moderate battles and 6mm of even 3mm for apocalypse style. I'm sure GW spend a lot on market research to make the decisions they do, but I just find it hard to believe that the majority of 40k players wouldn't play smaller scale games as well as 28mm, not instead of, while also opening up the setting for new players who don't have the time/space/interest for 28mm.
Yes!! This is what I was asking for the last time you guys did a convo like this! You absolutely earned my Patreon with a podcast. Well done!
I have really enjoyed the videos and I hope that you keep covering the tiny hammer.
that is a magnificent head of hair.