Agreed. Armada leaving in 2018 sped up the time li e of players that rose up faster at the top level than where they should have at the time. Zain is the best example. He grabbed his first major win in 2018 in a stacked tournament that didn't Include Armada and slowly built up a resume in 2019 before the pandemic. Cody I think would have still had this trajectory since he rose to top 3 by 2022/23. The same should be said for Amsa. He slowly hit this curve where he shot up in 2022 after a decade, but I can't infer if Armada being in the scene then would change that, since YOshi matchups is always unconventional to the standard meta matchups. Probably does get his first big win, but may be less consistent top 3 finishes atm.
armada being active doesnt stop people from getting good? imo people would have surpassed him if he stayed. thats like being in the early 2000's and saying people wouldnt have rose if ken never quit
@@JoonTheKim I mean yeah people get good regardless but it would have taken a more time if Armada didn't leave. For example Axe and Wizzrobe #3 and #2 on 2019 summer ranking would not have happened for example.
after armada there were a few players who came up pretty significantly but idk much if any of if it can really be attributed to armada leaving. i think slippi is the bigger factor, makes more sense, and relies less on the hypothetical that armada wouldve never fallen off or never wouldve had more stiff competition, obviously cant assume he would have fallen off but slippi is major enough that we can assume things wouldve been made harder for him at least
Armada was a monster, but I think people are overall significantly better against Peach nowadays. I can't see him winning vs really good top players without Trif and other modern day peaches new shit in certain matchups. That said Plup's outdated Samus got 9th at Supernova so you can never discredit raw good fundamentals lol.
Morse ain't beating (much less 3-0ing) 2015 m2k sheik like he does jmook, and I don't think plups top 8s with samus has been topped, who the last non plup samus to make top 8? If plups samus is outdated I wanna be outdated
I think Zain and Cody would beat him but I think people outside of the top ten to top 20 might struggle still. His decision making was just so good all the time. It was amazing to watch.
Given you are a top player yourself, you should know mindset and adaptation are probably the most important aspect in melee. Given Armada is and has always been the best at this by far, you severely underrate him. Also how would you know about the top players recoveries 2015? You were a noob back then. Also why act like "people" got close to beating him? There were exactlxy a handfull of people he ever lost to in his entire career until up to the end. That's something unheard of, something that will never happen again.
Well I've played two tournament games vs. Preeminent and two tournament games vs. Armada, and Preeminent 4-stocked me in one of the games while Armada did not, so I gotta give this one to Preeminent.
It's so sad that Armada quit, one of the big reasons was that he had to travel a lot for good practice or invite people over to sweden. If Armada could have gotten good practice with Slippi he would have been even more insane. Nice video
@olefshn4464 In the past, Armada paved the way and was the goat but now he's retired. Armada "could" be a "better player" like Ken or any old legend in theory but you could spin it any which way imo (i.e. if Armada only played Peach without Fox, "he's just rusty", etc)
@olefshn4464 Modern peaches are also breaking barriers against spacies, Puff, developing the character further, etc where Armada had struggled a bit (although could or maybe even has developed or learned a lot of them). It could've also just been a personal preference and it did take like Leffen and Hbox to push him to that point of doing what he thought would be more consistent and actually get like a $2 net positive if he got first going back to Sweden 😂
TLDR: these discussions are fun, but you ultimately can't judge players from different eras from the perspective of the modern game. Asking 2004 Ken to beat a top 100 Fox today would be like asking a 1960s Corvette to win a race against a 2020s Dodge Challenger, it ain't happening. These debates are always fun but ultimately kind of pointless. Obviously if you plucked a top 50 player from 2024 and matched them up with up with 2015 Armada, the 2024 player is going to have such a raw advantage over Armada that they might win just because of that. You'd be asking Armada to fight a player who has almost 10 more years of meta devopment and understanding, a superior controller, and also possessing a superior version of the game (UCF). Those factors alone lead me to believe that Armada would be at a huge disadvantage. Now on the flip side, if you take 2015 Armada, bring him forward to today, give him a FOB, UCF, and even a week to train in Uncle Punch and Slippi, I think he mops the floor with the lower end of the top 50. If you give him a month with all those resources, it wouldn't surprise me if he is back in top 5 contention shortly thereafter, the dude was that good.
@@westong9082 I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't care about the game. He has said it's his favorite game of all time in interviews before and he played for over a decade while being a pioneer for the scene. He also lead the meta for his characters for damn near that entire time. People are allowed to retire.
The factor that these discussions don’t weigh heavily enough is that competing is more than just game skill. I think a lot of players crumble under the mental pressure of playing vs prime Armada even if they are more up to date with the meta, and it’s really hard to quantify something like that
Yeah was going to type a paragraph about this , glad you said it first. People don't talk about composure/clutch/competitive drive as a factor that varies from player to player when doing a comparison like this That's why we see certain old school players fade away/drop off and others who are able to show up and make waves at tournaments. The meta has changed a lot and players have improved a ton but some of these people in the top 50 do not have the mental to beat Armada in a bo5 >50% of the time.
Exactly. Armada was such a clutch player even on the biggest of stages, under the most pressure, with the loudest of crowds (usually cheering against him.) Most ppl do not possess the mental fortitude to thrive under those conditions
especially crazy considering Nicki is a top player himself that barely clutched a game against one of the top players at the latest invitiational and after it was so nervous that he couldn't even give an interview. He should know how important this is.
I think Armada's biggest advantages in these hypotheticals is that since his retirement, people haven't been able to play against Peach at that level. My answer will be lloD
Oh - I thought the question was "of all the players who can win Bo5, what's the lowest rank" but the question is actually "of these 50 ranked players, what's the lowest one that can win Bo5" I'm going to go with Wizzrobe.
I think it's odd how people treat top 100 or top 50 like its a linear skill scale. People have always seemed to get exponentially better as they get closer to the top. Current rank 50 players are not even remotely close to top 3 or top 5 players in any modern melee era. Zain makes top 50 players look like coughing babies.
Zain lost to BBatts who is in the bottom half of top 50 at 36. There is definitely a huge difference but top 50 guys can definitely take sets here and there from the top 5. Cody lost to Bing. Mango has had his share of top 50 losses in recent years.
@@LevelWithKevin agreed, plus the talent pool is deeper now days a bit. But armada was the most consistent top player ever who never dropped sets to lower ranked players. And we're asking who is favoured vs armada not who has a chance, everyone in the top 50 would have a non zero chance.
I don’t think it’s insane to say that you sometimes have results that lie outside of your standard deviation. I don’t really know which side id say for it but with their set history it’s a fair thing to say. Lucky doesn’t mean blindfolded it just means outside of the normal bounds.
@@blank_ivysaur I hear what you're saying, I guess it depends on your personal definition of lucky within that context. Mine doesn't really fit because I don't think luck has anything to do with an outlier but eh, semantics.
Stuff happens, I can too win a game or 2 out of a one hour session against someone way way better than me. Doesn't mean i'm even close to my opponent level.
Yes, it is. Given everything, Armada never lost to someone like S2J up to that point,. Anyone that ever played melee on any level knows that you have bad days. Apparently, Armadas worst days were still enough to win that set. Any other set against S2J was basically a breeze. It was a bad day, just like any person has at some point.
The fact that he kept his insane streak of never losing to anyone other than the other players called gods up for this long just proves how much better than anybody else, including the other "gods", he was.
As someone who has watched pretty much every Armada vod that exists, many of them many times over, and watched Trif's games and many of the current top Peach's gameplay too AND have extensive knowledge about the character myself... I still don't think any one of them are close to being as good as prime Armada. Trif comes closest but is still too inconsistent. Trif's peaks are arguably better when he is landing all his advanced tech but I think even Trif would agree he isn't as consistently good as prime Armada. As an example in every recorded game that exists of Armada's Peach, in total he has only SD'd three or so times (most of us SD that often in one hour of netplay). Trif on the other hand self destructs rather often for Peach which can instantly lose you the game and set. Many of the advancements in defensive options you allude to Armada was very aware of and often already had counterplays for them. In addition, when players fail to do these advanced defensive options, modern Peaches still aren't punishing as hard as Armada did, especially on tech chases, platform follow ups and death combos. Modern day players aren't even close to how good Armada was at those. A lot of the options modern top Peaches go for feel shaky and chaotic whereas Armada always seemed to have everything under control, there was a kind of confidence and presence that you can just feel from watching him play. It's hard to articulate this properly but it's just something you feel from watching the games. He almost never made technical errors, he knew how to DI and SDI everything, he had excellent mental resilience and adapted very quickly. Armada was also very aware of almost all the modern Peach tech and options and deliberately chose not to do it for various reasons, usually because the marginal improvement was usually not worth the possible risk and adding to the mental stack of options. A really simple example is that Armada never wavedashed back to grab edge and would always float because of the slight chance of a tech flub causing an SD, despite the fact this came at the cost of not being able to float from ledge. Many modern Peach mains, including the top players, STILL go back and watch Armada vods to study how he played and it will probably be the gold standard for a very long time, maybe forever.
Preeminent wouldn't stand a chance against Armada. There is something innate that separates the very top players from the rest. You mention how we have all these new practice tools, but do you think players like hbox, plup, mango are all practicing as efficiently as possible, grinding, analyzing, etc? No, they just play the game regularly and still people haven't really caught up to them. Armada was completely dominant, maybe people have gotten closer to him now but certainly not 50+% chance of beating him.
I played Armada for a week right before he won evo 2015? 16? I didn't get this man to last stock once and played him for a week for hours at a time. He beat one of our top falco players so bad that he dropped the character and started maining fox. 😂
I really think you are equating skill growth in the top 10 to skill growth in the top 50. Armada has NO CHANCE against most current members of the top 10. I think current Zain would EMBARRASS Armada in a humbling way. Same with Cody or amsa or mang0 (not moky lol). But those elite players are on such a different level than even top 20 or top 30 players. The difference is so visceral. Top 30 players just aren't shit compared to the top 10 players. Especially top 30 compared to Zain or Cody or mang0. They're just on a completely different level.
it's greyish than that, Zain 2 years ago met PPMD online, and ppmd 3 stocked him in the marth ditto. Yes Zain would still win a set, probably easily in a tournament setup etc, but if we let PPMD, or Armada one year of practice, they can get back to top 10 very quickly.
people on Team Armada sorta act like he is some sort of superhuman that always has some sort of magical advantage. which is a boring and unhelpful mindset imo
Nah it's just about reckonizing the talent in top legendary players vs randos in the top 100. It's like saying prime Shaq would get destroyed in today's NBA
It's hilarious that armada is still being talkes about. This is his legacy, he will forever be compared and talked about as last long as he doesn't return to smash because people still have the idea of him in 2024 melee.
Maybe you can try asking Trif if he thinks he's better than Armada cuz I feel like the pro peach players would be the most well versed in talking about this topic.
showing the armada vs trif gameplay makes it obvious it was just entirely different eras. I'm not sure armada could beat anyone in the top 100 in this time travel scenario after seeing that lol
I really think you're completely wrong. I'm a peach. I played preeminent at the last big house. Preeminent BARELY had an over 50% chance of beating me and you've probably never heard of me. I played preeminent in friendlies at tipped off a few months ago. I won the 2 friendlies and they just left the set up. These players are mentally weak and just aren't that good. You're showing footage of mang0 Armada where Armada hits some combos NO PEACH IN THE WORLD would hit 9 years later. This man's mentality is STRONGER AND BETTER than people's mentality now.
I have respect for you caup, but you winning 2 friendlies against someone and calling them mentally weak like you really know anything about them is pointless as fuck. I don't even disagree about Armada's greatness, but you need to take a step back with that other garbage.
You mentioned advancements in neutral that have happened since 2017 and new mixups that he would not be prepared for, but I think you underrate Armada's decision making. What the commenter who said that you would never see Armada SD last stock or give away free stocks is not just about Trif's propensity of SD, but rather speaking to Armada's composure and consistency. Armada, even with outdated tech makes everyone work to beat him in a grueling way. His spacing is very good, his reading of timings and understanding of habits is very good. These things are hard to overcome, because Armada can force you to play the game at his pace, and then simply make better decisions than you. Unless there is some mixup that Armada is unprepared for and cannot adapt to, I don't see him being overwhelmed by the advancements in the meta. The places you would see him being outclassed is by someone like Cody who's recovery would probably be too good for Armada to secure early stocks, and Cody's advanced punish game with shine-dtilt confirms and second hit upairs would be something Armada is not prepared for. Or Zain who's pivot tipper punishes off grab would skew the risk reward in a matchup that Armada was already uncomfortable in to the point that he would get out damaged and out classed. The skill gap between top 10 players and top 50 players is still large, and players who are not consistent with these high level meta advancements would not have the X factor to consistently outshine Armada. His fundies are too good. The answer is probably like Kodorin or Aklo, I think those players have the consistency and skill to overwhelm Armada, anyone below that would probably get beaten more often than not.
I think modern defense techs and average punish game have improved enough to make it really hard for whatever prime Gods era player to compete vs nowadays players. I also think that Armada's work ethic was insane and that if a motivated and ambitious version of himself showed up he would be back among the best players in a matter of ~months. I don't think he'd be back in top maining peach only unless he was able to find completely new solutions to some issues he'd face in some matchups, and unless he was able to change some core parts of his iconic playstyle I'm saying this because some of the improvements in the meta seem to benefit other characters more than Peach (like platform shenanigans) and the game is also way faster in many regards I'd love to be proven wrong, but it seems unlikely. ✌️
armada is/was special, but I'd be pissed if I was a top player today and was told I can't beat a player who retired and no longer competes. like as a competitor, I want you to speak with your gameplay, I want you to put your ego on the line. the question of who's better is answered in front of a crt not on reddit
Very long and obviously entirely conjectured answer ahead. My gut instinct was that Armada from 2015 is probably more than capable of making the modern top 50, and that he would have a >50% chance of beating a fair number of players on the lower end of that ranking. There is no way I think 2015 Armada is better than current Trif or lloD, but the top 50/top 100 rankings are very much not linear IMO, both over time and internally within single years. After typing all of this out though I'm much more doubtful that it's as clear cut as I initially thought. How many people in the current top 50 could have won Summit 1? Of course, this is just a different, eternally speculative hypothetical, but it's also a way to reframe the question in a way that I feel makes it feel slightly more tangible to answer. In 2015, the ranks from 50-1 by 10 were Kels (#50), Mike Haze (#40), Fly Amanita (#30), HugS (#20), Shroomed (#10), and Armada (#1). So if we operate on a linear time scale, we can ask which of these players might have won something like an MLG Pro Circuit tournament from back then against Ken. Many (including myself) would argue that a linear time scale is the wrong way to approach it though, especially dealing with such early Melee (we might be saying that about 2024 Melee someday), and so the question then becomes what is a fair year to use as a benchmark? I think we can split the difference and try 4.5 years, which moves the goalposts to Genesis 1. I think Kels could have won Genesis 1, and I definitely think he could've won any/all of the MLG Pro Circuit tournaments. Another qualifier I'll make at this point is being top 50 (40-50) in 2015 is IMO a bit more "prestigious" than top 50 (40-50) in 2024. What I mean by this is that if you were ranked in 2015, you probably were close to that rank skill-wise in the world. With how many excellent players have retired at this point though, I think that the top 50 rankings are further from the top 50 in terms of skill than perhaps ever before (this becomes less true the further up the rankings you go, however). With no disrespect* to Juicebox (#50 in Summer 2024, the most recent ranking as of this comment), there are almost certainly more than 50 players better than them right now. But I don't know that there are 100. So to return to the initial question, I think there are significantly more who could win it than couldn't on the ranking, but I don't know that I believe that all of them could, especially in the 45-50 range. Probably our closest example of anything like this is Ken running into FatGoku on Slippi in 2020, or Ken's overall performance in 2013. FatGoku was ranked #39 in 2019 and #51 in 2022, and won most games against Ken in their Slippi games. At this point Ken is 14 years outside of his most recent (unofficial, but difficult to argue against) #1 year, and is still keeping it close. Ken's Evo 2013 performance (7y outside of his most recent #1 year) featured losses to Zhu (#18) and Larry Lurr (#87), and no wins against any players you would recognize, probably. All of this points to 2015 Armada being able to keep it close with modern high level players, but likely with
We do have been led into believing that the meta has overall improved SO much with slippi, I do believe that the meta inside the top 20 players probably has increased, but the meta for the majority of the players has not, I feel like people just like to act like the meta is SO much better now to give themselves a feeling that they might even have a chance at beating a top player from 10 years ago. Reality is no one outside the top 100 even has a chance of beating a 2015 Armada, maybe not even people outside the top 50. This definitely comes from the community being frustrated that the skillgaps are so HUGE in melee, they feel like they have to compensate for the fact that they're so immensely skillgapped by acting like the community overall (this includes themselves) has improved to a point where top players from 2015 would be "irrelevant" today.
I think the reason you're seeing a disconnect between your opinion and "the popular sentiment" is that most people responding aren't making an abalytical logical determination for their answers they're going off of emotion/feel/vibes. Armada has a something of a mythological aura about him at this point (as do the rest of the 5 gods).
Another point, if you teleported Trif back to Armada’s prime, he’s trashing everyone for sure lmao, way worse than Armada did. Obviously this ignores armada’s world class fox, but in the peach games Trif would be putting people on T-shirts.
imo people drastically over value tech skill. trif would trash people for a month or two until people got used to him. what makes armada great is how consistently top level he was and you can't get there with tech skill.
@@dominater5 Frankly I haven't followed Triff's tourney results closely recently, but I agree with you. Melee is so much more than "keeping up with the meta" or the latest tech. There's no way any 2024 Peach, teleported back to 2015, would somehow have MORE dominance than Armada. Maybe for like, one set against top players. Then Armada/Mango/Leffen/etc. would be like "OK you're done now."
I feel like this hypothetical is kinda like asking: "If we put Einstein into a time machine and sent him back to the 17th century, would Newton have a better general understanding of relativity than him?" Very very likely not the case. Does that automatically make Einstein the greater physicist though? Hard to say, it's a very subjective question. This is an extremely overexaggerated example of course but it emphasizes the point of different times, different means. If you did the time machine experiment with let's say Cody, he'd very much be the more dominant player. But at the same time 2015 Armada's Fox was the prerequisite to Cody Schwab's current dominance. Cody has said time and time again that their play styles are very similar and he learned a lot from Armada. "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Or as we Melee players like to say: "Respect your elders." ;)
I think this comparison holds when we are discussing player's legacy. Is being the best in 2024 worth more than being the best in 2016? Probably not. But would the best in 2024 beat the best player in 2016? Absolutely! So when people say "2015 Armada would beat a modern day top level player", it's like saying that Newton WOULD have the greater understanding of relativity than Einstein, which makes little sense. Now replace Einstein with one of his much worse peers of his time who still got to experience and learn what Einstein studied. They are not a better physicist than Newton historically, but they know more stuff.
@@SSBMNicki Being the best in 2024 absolutely does mean more for legacy than being the best in 2016. I don't know how you could even think otherwise, this is the best people have ever been at the game. If Melee goes on for another 8 years and Zain/Cody are still playing and being the best, there is no world where they aren't put above Armada legacy wise. The further the meta develops, the harder it is to be the best. Being a pioneer is still a tremendous feat in its own right but let's be objective here, this is the real modern era. People weren't even sliding off when Armada was playing and rarely got zero to death combos unless they were in the top 5. The meta was so much different compared to now.
@@SSBMNicki Not disagreeing with anything you said in the video btw, I was just trying to bring up this comparison to ultimately show that it's completely natural that a newer era player would have the upper hand in a direct 1v1 when compared to a player from almost 10 years ago where Sippli, UCF and a lot of meta developments weren't even a thing yet. But also to show that ultimately that kind of comparison is kinda unfair as well (in the same way comparing Einstein's knowledge to Newton's knowledge would be).
one complicating factor is the existence of UCF. Does Armada also get perfect backdashes and shield drops, or are they playing on vanilla melee where the other player who knows what they'll look like, or does the 2024 player get the extra frame windows and controller position leniency that Armada doesn't?
Honestly, the fox vs Peach MU isn't THAT different. Sure people are far more consistant now days. But i think like Grab or some Marth player would woop his ass because of the advancement in Marth in the floaty match-ups. The level of defensive play is a lot higher in the Fox MU's. But which fox today could out play 2015 Mango's or Leffen's fox? The top 6 was and top 10~ now is still far apart. You gotta think match ups advancement more than just pure tech. Because Neutral wise, Armada was a fucking beast. No matter your advancement, if you can't win neutral, you just can't win. But give good neutral advantage in the MU like Marth vs Peach a shot, and all of the sudden, Armada loses over and over against them.
@@NaJk93 I watched some 2015 fox dittos and I'm pretty confident that all of the modern day top 50 foxes would beat the top foxes back then in the ditto now
@@SSBMNicki Fair enough. If that is your assessment, then any top 50 should beat 2015 Armada. I do think neutral play and adaptation is lacking in below top 30~ players. So i don't know. I find at least top 30~ to be able to pace neutral. Of an overall estimate. MU wise though. I think the rising DK's (outside of Junebug) would even have a better chance than a top 50 Fox. Just because of advancement in the MU is by far a bigger change than Fox vs Peach.
Another point, if you teleported Trif back to Armada’s prime, he’s trashing everyone for sure lmao, way worse than Armada did. Obviously this ignores armada’s world class fox, but in the peach games Trif would be putting people on T-shirts. Like imagine 2015 Mang0 against modern trif bro, I don’t think my goat would even have a chance. Great video Nicki! Loved watching you at Eggdog, hope you can travel to USA more often.
I always think it's interesting when ESL (English second language) people opt to use websites in English as opposed to their native language (assuming you're German first and English second with respect to language acquisition, if not then this doesn't apply). If you're ESL would you mind giving your answer?
What website are you thinking of? All the smash related ones are in English anyways, for most other stuff I do it because 1. it would look weird on video and 2. most of the guides are in English so if I have an issue it's easier to find a solution
I only had RUclips and Twitter in mind in this scenario, since those are both global platforms with full support for multiple languages. For stuff like Liquipedia or SSBwiki etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there were only full support for English. I hadn't considered the angle of how it might look in a video though, if you don't use those sites in English outside of recording.
I think Armada still has better reads(especially in neutral) than a lot of these players and his feel for when to evade was crazy. I think Trifs grounded punish and defensive tech is better but sometimes I think Armada wouldn't fall for some of the baits or spacing that Trif does. Trif is still getting better though and he can do a lot of things that Armada can't.
My meta improvement anecdote is Cody rewatching summit 11 grands on stream a few months back. His biggest takeaway was how bad and dated the gameplay was the whole way through, and that was the top 2 players in the world just 3 years ago.
i think one thing people don't talk about is how crucially important the clutch and intuition factor, obviously armada wouldn't be moving as fast but he would realize this time traveller was playing super fast and he would adapt very quickly by camping very carefully and playing to let his opponent make mistakes from nerves
Exactly, it’s like people have forgotten that back in the day we had fast technical Foxes like Hax, SilentWolf, and Crush (Let’s lump in Westballz’ Falco in here too) that Armada used to wipe the floor with. The adaptation and intangibles are even more important. They see the game different; it’s like the M2K “random” FSmash thing t where even Zain admits to not understanding why he goes for them and why it works.
I think a lot of people are undervaluing the extent to which the game has changed in the past 9 years in this discussion. Hypothetical 2015 Armada has the timespan of a best of 5 that will likely start and finish in around 15-20 minutes (for most potential character matchups) to beat a modern top player who, while they lack many of the intangibles that have made Melee's historically great players so good, is up a decade in metagame advancements and matchup knowledge. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that, with prep time, this could be mostly mitigated, but this isn't the case here. The advantage this provides in a single best of 5 set is hard to overstate. For my money and as a throwaway example, I would give Mot$ better than 50/50 odds just for his sheer quantity of modern top level experience in the matchup against Bbatts and Wally
I could see him dropping sets in a Peach ditto (although he'd probably just go Fox), dropping a set to a top Falcon like all the other Gods (whether by spaghetti or just them getting that good/prepped), and dropping a set to any top spacie like the other Gods. Prime Armada did drop sets to Sheiks as well so anything is possible (although he probably still top 8s anyway or gets 13th-9th at worst imo). Axe, aMSa, Slug, etc are definitely doable by sheer number of attempts as well imo
I haven't watched the whole video, but: Melee is so much more than the latest meta, the latest tech, etc. I mean, living in SWEDEN - and before netplay - Armada was basically lagging a bit behind the latest Meta anyway, and severely lacked in practice against basically every character. He had no clue what the "Puff meta" was in Sweden because there were no good Puffs in Sweden. He figured out how to use Young Link any to beat Hbox anyway. Armada's Peach is so, so, so much more than just a Peach with the "latest tech that is up-to-date with the Meta and good punishes." Same with every legendary top-8 or so player. It would be like saying that prime Shaq would get destroyed in today's NBA because the "meta has progressed and people shoot 3s more" or something. However, you can simply LOOK at prime Shaq and know that opinion is wrong. The difference with Melee is that you cannot directly peer into Armada's (and Mangos, PPMD's, etc.) beautiful Melee brain to see all what makes him great and how it is so much more than having "the most up-to-date punish game" or something like that. EDIT: Watched a bit more. Yeah, obviously, someone like Zain, who is also a legendary top player (not to mention sort of counterpick to Armada I think, being a Marth player vs a Peach/Fox player), would likely beat Armada. That's not my point. My point is that saying that random people in the top 100 in 2024 would destroy prime Armada because the "meta has progressed" is incorrect.
Aa a tech skill based player, I think you're over-valuing tech skill a weee little bit. While I DO agree that 2015 Armada will definitely be losing to the top dogs no questios asked, you're forgetting this is a GOD we're talking about. 2015 Armada is still going to have adaptation skills modern players to this day wish they had. That alone is going to allow Armada to stay afloat because yes, he will likely lose alot of game 1s in sets, but his adaptation is what separates the gods from the beasts. I lose to players who are less technical than me all the time because they have better decision making skills and game sense than me. I PROMISE you that tech skill isn't as important as many make it out to be. Seriously, do you SEE how many technical Falco players there are out there? We'd have a frikk ton more Falco players if tech skill had more weight on how good a player gets. I mean look at most top players who are playing non-spacie matchups, man. Theres a lot of defense and neutral going on rather than tech skill if you ask me. How do you think hbox manages to stay relevant? Its cuz hbox has been in somany situations somany times that he just has answers for literally almost any situation that comes up. Really good players still have gaps in their gameplans and can fall apart with the right player/char MU. Gods can still be susceptible to this, but they're a LOT more prepared for head-scratchers. So yeah, I mean, 2015 Armada will lose games and perhaps sets to to junebug, but he's just gonna push his glasses into his face and proceed to activate ultra-instinct. So all in all, it is valid and safe to say Armada will be abit behind, but make no mistake that his game sense and adaptation will be his carry. I CONFIDENTLY stand by that.
@ayrtonpavot3096 did u watch that gameplay, people would throw stuff at armada that he didn't even know existed. Armada would win a rematch tho after he learns all the new stuff
You have to delete this comment dude. Diamond players are good, but not that good lol. And this is coming from somebody who’s had a decent run with them in the past
No one wants to hear it but most of today's top 100 could beat armada in 2015, and it would be decently free. The average good player back then knew nothing about the game compared to now, where as all the top interaction are now common knowledge and easy to learn now
Armada quitting was the biggest Meta shift in modern Melee history. Suddenly a lot of players rose up that never had a chance before
Agreed. Armada leaving in 2018 sped up the time li e of players that rose up faster at the top level than where they should have at the time. Zain is the best example. He grabbed his first major win in 2018 in a stacked tournament that didn't Include Armada and slowly built up a resume in 2019 before the pandemic. Cody I think would have still had this trajectory since he rose to top 3 by 2022/23. The same should be said for Amsa. He slowly hit this curve where he shot up in 2022 after a decade, but I can't infer if Armada being in the scene then would change that, since YOshi matchups is always unconventional to the standard meta matchups. Probably does get his first big win, but may be less consistent top 3 finishes atm.
armada being active doesnt stop people from getting good? imo people would have surpassed him if he stayed. thats like being in the early 2000's and saying people wouldnt have rose if ken never quit
@@JoonTheKim I mean yeah people get good regardless but it would have taken a more time if Armada didn't leave.
For example Axe and Wizzrobe #3 and #2 on 2019 summer ranking would not have happened for example.
Slippi was more of a meta shift in that regard
after armada there were a few players who came up pretty significantly but idk much if any of if it can really be attributed to armada leaving. i think slippi is the bigger factor, makes more sense, and relies less on the hypothetical that armada wouldve never fallen off or never wouldve had more stiff competition, obviously cant assume he would have fallen off but slippi is major enough that we can assume things wouldve been made harder for him at least
Armada was a monster, but I think people are overall significantly better against Peach nowadays. I can't see him winning vs really good top players without Trif and other modern day peaches new shit in certain matchups. That said Plup's outdated Samus got 9th at Supernova so you can never discredit raw good fundamentals lol.
It’s outdated in terms of Samus, but it’s still the current Plup
Morse ain't beating (much less 3-0ing) 2015 m2k sheik like he does jmook, and I don't think plups top 8s with samus has been topped, who the last non plup samus to make top 8? If plups samus is outdated I wanna be outdated
Nah modern players get cooked without controller mods and ucf.
@@simian47522015 m2k wouldnt space aerials against samus at 0% LMFAO
wrong on literally every single point
I think Zain and Cody would beat him but I think people outside of the top ten to top 20 might struggle still. His decision making was just so good all the time. It was amazing to watch.
If this is 2015 Armada he loses to most of the top 30, 2018 Armada could probably hover around top 20 or so.
@IchigoKurosaki911 yeah, im thinking of 2017 to 2018 Armada which is when I started watching so that makes sense
Given you are a top player yourself, you should know mindset and adaptation are probably the most important aspect in melee. Given Armada is and has always been the best at this by far, you severely underrate him. Also how would you know about the top players recoveries 2015? You were a noob back then. Also why act like "people" got close to beating him? There were exactlxy a handfull of people he ever lost to in his entire career until up to the end. That's something unheard of, something that will never happen again.
Well I've played two tournament games vs. Preeminent and two tournament games vs. Armada, and Preeminent 4-stocked me in one of the games while Armada did not, so I gotta give this one to Preeminent.
NONE of the current players would TOUCH armada on vanilla. UCF is a different story.
People saying 2saint have just never watched armada play before lmao
It's so sad that Armada quit, one of the big reasons was that he had to travel a lot for good practice or invite people over to sweden. If Armada could have gotten good practice with Slippi he would have been even more insane. Nice video
He will be the best only at Peach ditto, I'm telling you, those EU mfkrs never want to play
@@TrifSmashHonest question, do you think you're better than Armada?
@@olefshn4464 you mean today? For sure LOL
@olefshn4464 In the past, Armada paved the way and was the goat but now he's retired. Armada "could" be a "better player" like Ken or any old legend in theory but you could spin it any which way imo (i.e. if Armada only played Peach without Fox, "he's just rusty", etc)
@olefshn4464 Modern peaches are also breaking barriers against spacies, Puff, developing the character further, etc where Armada had struggled a bit (although could or maybe even has developed or learned a lot of them). It could've also just been a personal preference and it did take like Leffen and Hbox to push him to that point of doing what he thought would be more consistent and actually get like a $2 net positive if he got first going back to Sweden 😂
I mean, none of these players could even beat 2007 Mew2King, so how are they supposed to beat Armada? 🤔
S2J's knee was NEVER gonna hit
TLDR: these discussions are fun, but you ultimately can't judge players from different eras from the perspective of the modern game. Asking 2004 Ken to beat a top 100 Fox today would be like asking a 1960s Corvette to win a race against a 2020s Dodge Challenger, it ain't happening.
These debates are always fun but ultimately kind of pointless. Obviously if you plucked a top 50 player from 2024 and matched them up with up with 2015 Armada, the 2024 player is going to have such a raw advantage over Armada that they might win just because of that. You'd be asking Armada to fight a player who has almost 10 more years of meta devopment and understanding, a superior controller, and also possessing a superior version of the game (UCF). Those factors alone lead me to believe that Armada would be at a huge disadvantage.
Now on the flip side, if you take 2015 Armada, bring him forward to today, give him a FOB, UCF, and even a week to train in Uncle Punch and Slippi, I think he mops the floor with the lower end of the top 50. If you give him a month with all those resources, it wouldn't surprise me if he is back in top 5 contention shortly thereafter, the dude was that good.
that would be peak storyline if armada actually gave af about the game
@@westong9082 I don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't care about the game. He has said it's his favorite game of all time in interviews before and he played for over a decade while being a pioneer for the scene. He also lead the meta for his characters for damn near that entire time. People are allowed to retire.
@@samskott2344 i didnt mean it like that
@@westong9082 what did you mean then?
@@samskott2344 more like sarcastically like in a joking way
The factor that these discussions don’t weigh heavily enough is that competing is more than just game skill. I think a lot of players crumble under the mental pressure of playing vs prime Armada even if they are more up to date with the meta, and it’s really hard to quantify something like that
Yeah was going to type a paragraph about this , glad you said it first. People don't talk about composure/clutch/competitive drive as a factor that varies from player to player when doing a comparison like this
That's why we see certain old school players fade away/drop off and others who are able to show up and make waves at tournaments.
The meta has changed a lot and players have improved a ton but some of these people in the top 50 do not have the mental to beat Armada in a bo5 >50% of the time.
Exactly. Armada was such a clutch player even on the biggest of stages, under the most pressure, with the loudest of crowds (usually cheering against him.)
Most ppl do not possess the mental fortitude to thrive under those conditions
especially crazy considering Nicki is a top player himself that barely clutched a game against one of the top players at the latest invitiational and after it was so nervous that he couldn't even give an interview. He should know how important this is.
@narddog2151 yeah, exactly. Armadas mental and emotional resilience was on a whole nother level
I think Armada's biggest advantages in these hypotheticals is that since his retirement, people haven't been able to play against Peach at that level.
My answer will be lloD
Oh - I thought the question was "of all the players who can win Bo5, what's the lowest rank" but the question is actually "of these 50 ranked players, what's the lowest one that can win Bo5"
I'm going to go with Wizzrobe.
I think it's odd how people treat top 100 or top 50 like its a linear skill scale. People have always seemed to get exponentially better as they get closer to the top. Current rank 50 players are not even remotely close to top 3 or top 5 players in any modern melee era. Zain makes top 50 players look like coughing babies.
I think the answer to who has a favored matchup vs him is joshman and above. Spark loses imo
Zain lost to BBatts who is in the bottom half of top 50 at 36. There is definitely a huge difference but top 50 guys can definitely take sets here and there from the top 5. Cody lost to Bing. Mango has had his share of top 50 losses in recent years.
@@LevelWithKevin agreed, plus the talent pool is deeper now days a bit. But armada was the most consistent top player ever who never dropped sets to lower ranked players. And we're asking who is favoured vs armada not who has a chance, everyone in the top 50 would have a non zero chance.
@@dominater5 The talent pool isn't deeper, the top players are just worse.
Huh, DontTestMe vs Armada when?
"lucky games" doesn't sound like a sound argument when those games were won against melee's most dominant and consistent player
I don’t think it’s insane to say that you sometimes have results that lie outside of your standard deviation. I don’t really know which side id say for it but with their set history it’s a fair thing to say. Lucky doesn’t mean blindfolded it just means outside of the normal bounds.
@@blank_ivysaur I hear what you're saying, I guess it depends on your personal definition of lucky within that context. Mine doesn't really fit because I don't think luck has anything to do with an outlier but eh, semantics.
Stuff happens, I can too win a game or 2 out of a one hour session against someone way way better than me. Doesn't mean i'm even close to my opponent level.
Yes, it is. Given everything, Armada never lost to someone like S2J up to that point,. Anyone that ever played melee on any level knows that you have bad days. Apparently, Armadas worst days were still enough to win that set. Any other set against S2J was basically a breeze. It was a bad day, just like any person has at some point.
The fact that he kept his insane streak of never losing to anyone other than the other players called gods up for this long just proves how much better than anybody else, including the other "gods", he was.
As someone who has watched pretty much every Armada vod that exists, many of them many times over, and watched Trif's games and many of the current top Peach's gameplay too AND have extensive knowledge about the character myself... I still don't think any one of them are close to being as good as prime Armada. Trif comes closest but is still too inconsistent. Trif's peaks are arguably better when he is landing all his advanced tech but I think even Trif would agree he isn't as consistently good as prime Armada.
As an example in every recorded game that exists of Armada's Peach, in total he has only SD'd three or so times (most of us SD that often in one hour of netplay). Trif on the other hand self destructs rather often for Peach which can instantly lose you the game and set.
Many of the advancements in defensive options you allude to Armada was very aware of and often already had counterplays for them. In addition, when players fail to do these advanced defensive options, modern Peaches still aren't punishing as hard as Armada did, especially on tech chases, platform follow ups and death combos. Modern day players aren't even close to how good Armada was at those.
A lot of the options modern top Peaches go for feel shaky and chaotic whereas Armada always seemed to have everything under control, there was a kind of confidence and presence that you can just feel from watching him play. It's hard to articulate this properly but it's just something you feel from watching the games.
He almost never made technical errors, he knew how to DI and SDI everything, he had excellent mental resilience and adapted very quickly.
Armada was also very aware of almost all the modern Peach tech and options and deliberately chose not to do it for various reasons, usually because the marginal improvement was usually not worth the possible risk and adding to the mental stack of options.
A really simple example is that Armada never wavedashed back to grab edge and would always float because of the slight chance of a tech flub causing an SD, despite the fact this came at the cost of not being able to float from ledge.
Many modern Peach mains, including the top players, STILL go back and watch Armada vods to study how he played and it will probably be the gold standard for a very long time, maybe forever.
Preeminent wouldn't stand a chance against Armada. There is something innate that separates the very top players from the rest. You mention how we have all these new practice tools, but do you think players like hbox, plup, mango are all practicing as efficiently as possible, grinding, analyzing, etc? No, they just play the game regularly and still people haven't really caught up to them. Armada was completely dominant, maybe people have gotten closer to him now but certainly not 50+% chance of beating him.
counterargument: prime armada was nice with it
bro we all sucked at melee in 2015
Armada knows your movements. He 0-death me while talking to his brother and not looking at the screen. That’s crazy
@@gortniteasdfafds You're taking this way too serious. I'm just explaining what happened to me lol
I played Armada for a week right before he won evo 2015? 16? I didn't get this man to last stock once and played him for a week for hours at a time. He beat one of our top falco players so bad that he dropped the character and started maining fox. 😂
I think every top 50 player would have at least a 50% chance of beating 2015 Armada, but most would lose in a rematch a couple months later.
I really think you are equating skill growth in the top 10 to skill growth in the top 50. Armada has NO CHANCE against most current members of the top 10. I think current Zain would EMBARRASS Armada in a humbling way. Same with Cody or amsa or mang0 (not moky lol). But those elite players are on such a different level than even top 20 or top 30 players. The difference is so visceral. Top 30 players just aren't shit compared to the top 10 players. Especially top 30 compared to Zain or Cody or mang0. They're just on a completely different level.
it's greyish than that, Zain 2 years ago met PPMD online, and ppmd 3 stocked him in the marth ditto. Yes Zain would still win a set, probably easily in a tournament setup etc, but if we let PPMD, or Armada one year of practice, they can get back to top 10 very quickly.
@@Qual_ PPMD will never be top 10 again, even if he played. Armada is a different story.
Thank god. Love a top player speaking out about this. The online smash community is becoming fucking garbage. Worse and worse every year.
people on Team Armada sorta act like he is some sort of superhuman that always has some sort of magical advantage. which is a boring and unhelpful mindset imo
Nah it's just about reckonizing the talent in top legendary players vs randos in the top 100. It's like saying prime Shaq would get destroyed in today's NBA
He basically was. His stats speak for themselves, you are just too stupid to interpret it properly.
armada washing preeminent mark my words
Ask Trif if he thinks he's better than Armada yet. Because I know Llod, Polish, and Bbatts all still think they're worse than him.
Do you have the source of them saying that their all worse than Armada? I'd like to read/hear what they said specifically.
@@peterparker9042 I second this
armada comes back no real practice is top 20 armada consistently practicing is top 5
It's hilarious that armada is still being talkes about. This is his legacy, he will forever be compared and talked about as last long as he doesn't return to smash because people still have the idea of him in 2024 melee.
Maybe you can try asking Trif if he thinks he's better than Armada cuz I feel like the pro peach players would be the most well versed in talking about this topic.
showing the armada vs trif gameplay makes it obvious it was just entirely different eras. I'm not sure armada could beat anyone in the top 100 in this time travel scenario after seeing that lol
I miss him so much bro, he prolly woulda became a mostly fox player but metagame would be even more insane if he never left 😔
All fun and games until they realize they are playing on Melee 1.0 because some kid brought his copy of melee
I really think you're completely wrong. I'm a peach. I played preeminent at the last big house. Preeminent BARELY had an over 50% chance of beating me and you've probably never heard of me. I played preeminent in friendlies at tipped off a few months ago. I won the 2 friendlies and they just left the set up. These players are mentally weak and just aren't that good.
You're showing footage of mang0 Armada where Armada hits some combos NO PEACH IN THE WORLD would hit 9 years later. This man's mentality is STRONGER AND BETTER than people's mentality now.
is this bait
I have respect for you caup, but you winning 2 friendlies against someone and calling them mentally weak like you really know anything about them is pointless as fuck. I don't even disagree about Armada's greatness, but you need to take a step back with that other garbage.
preeminent is rank 80???? not sure why you're getting likes
@@gortniteasdfafds Because hes 49 in the summer ranks and used as one of the players as a comparison in the video you commented on?
You mentioned advancements in neutral that have happened since 2017 and new mixups that he would not be prepared for, but I think you underrate Armada's decision making.
What the commenter who said that you would never see Armada SD last stock or give away free stocks is not just about Trif's propensity of SD, but rather speaking to Armada's composure and consistency. Armada, even with outdated tech makes everyone work to beat him in a grueling way. His spacing is very good, his reading of timings and understanding of habits is very good. These things are hard to overcome, because Armada can force you to play the game at his pace, and then simply make better decisions than you.
Unless there is some mixup that Armada is unprepared for and cannot adapt to, I don't see him being overwhelmed by the advancements in the meta. The places you would see him being outclassed is by someone like Cody who's recovery would probably be too good for Armada to secure early stocks, and Cody's advanced punish game with shine-dtilt confirms and second hit upairs would be something Armada is not prepared for.
Or Zain who's pivot tipper punishes off grab would skew the risk reward in a matchup that Armada was already uncomfortable in to the point that he would get out damaged and out classed.
The skill gap between top 10 players and top 50 players is still large, and players who are not consistent with these high level meta advancements would not have the X factor to consistently outshine Armada. His fundies are too good. The answer is probably like Kodorin or Aklo, I think those players have the consistency and skill to overwhelm Armada, anyone below that would probably get beaten more often than not.
Armada simply hits four reads and wins
The BKC of melee
haha kind of
Needs more unedited bathroom breaks and long tangents.
Also while I love the idea of a BKC type of channel for Melee, they'd have to be a lot more old school than Nicki lol.
I think modern defense techs and average punish game have improved enough to make it really hard for whatever prime Gods era player to compete vs nowadays players.
I also think that Armada's work ethic was insane and that if a motivated and ambitious version of himself showed up he would be back among the best players in a matter of ~months.
I don't think he'd be back in top maining peach only unless he was able to find completely new solutions to some issues he'd face in some matchups, and unless he was able to change some core parts of his iconic playstyle
I'm saying this because some of the improvements in the meta seem to benefit other characters more than Peach (like platform shenanigans) and the game is also way faster in many regards
I'd love to be proven wrong, but it seems unlikely. ✌️
armada is/was special, but I'd be pissed if I was a top player today and was told I can't beat a player who retired and no longer competes. like as a competitor, I want you to speak with your gameplay, I want you to put your ego on the line. the question of who's better is answered in front of a crt not on reddit
Can we get to the real heart of melee here. What about hbox 2015 popoff vs hbox 2024 pop off?
Very long and obviously entirely conjectured answer ahead.
My gut instinct was that Armada from 2015 is probably more than capable of making the modern top 50, and that he would have a >50% chance of beating a fair number of players on the lower end of that ranking. There is no way I think 2015 Armada is better than current Trif or lloD, but the top 50/top 100 rankings are very much not linear IMO, both over time and internally within single years. After typing all of this out though I'm much more doubtful that it's as clear cut as I initially thought.
How many people in the current top 50 could have won Summit 1? Of course, this is just a different, eternally speculative hypothetical, but it's also a way to reframe the question in a way that I feel makes it feel slightly more tangible to answer.
In 2015, the ranks from 50-1 by 10 were Kels (#50), Mike Haze (#40), Fly Amanita (#30), HugS (#20), Shroomed (#10), and Armada (#1). So if we operate on a linear time scale, we can ask which of these players might have won something like an MLG Pro Circuit tournament from back then against Ken. Many (including myself) would argue that a linear time scale is the wrong way to approach it though, especially dealing with such early Melee (we might be saying that about 2024 Melee someday), and so the question then becomes what is a fair year to use as a benchmark? I think we can split the difference and try 4.5 years, which moves the goalposts to Genesis 1. I think Kels could have won Genesis 1, and I definitely think he could've won any/all of the MLG Pro Circuit tournaments.
Another qualifier I'll make at this point is being top 50 (40-50) in 2015 is IMO a bit more "prestigious" than top 50 (40-50) in 2024. What I mean by this is that if you were ranked in 2015, you probably were close to that rank skill-wise in the world. With how many excellent players have retired at this point though, I think that the top 50 rankings are further from the top 50 in terms of skill than perhaps ever before (this becomes less true the further up the rankings you go, however). With no disrespect* to Juicebox (#50 in Summer 2024, the most recent ranking as of this comment), there are almost certainly more than 50 players better than them right now. But I don't know that there are 100.
So to return to the initial question, I think there are significantly more who could win it than couldn't on the ranking, but I don't know that I believe that all of them could, especially in the 45-50 range.
Probably our closest example of anything like this is Ken running into FatGoku on Slippi in 2020, or Ken's overall performance in 2013. FatGoku was ranked #39 in 2019 and #51 in 2022, and won most games against Ken in their Slippi games. At this point Ken is 14 years outside of his most recent (unofficial, but difficult to argue against) #1 year, and is still keeping it close. Ken's Evo 2013 performance (7y outside of his most recent #1 year) featured losses to Zhu (#18) and Larry Lurr (#87), and no wins against any players you would recognize, probably. All of this points to 2015 Armada being able to keep it close with modern high level players, but likely with
Wtf didn't know melee needed powerscaling
@@vinbin4343 Why do you think the rankings exist. Everything needs powerscaling
@@SSBMNicki i just find it funny
Armada would be top 10, just under wizzy/moky level
We do have been led into believing that the meta has overall improved SO much with slippi, I do believe that the meta inside the top 20 players probably has increased, but the meta for the majority of the players has not, I feel like people just like to act like the meta is SO much better now to give themselves a feeling that they might even have a chance at beating a top player from 10 years ago.
Reality is no one outside the top 100 even has a chance of beating a 2015 Armada, maybe not even people outside the top 50.
This definitely comes from the community being frustrated that the skillgaps are so HUGE in melee, they feel like they have to compensate for the fact that they're so immensely skillgapped by acting like the community overall (this includes themselves) has improved to a point where top players from 2015 would be "irrelevant" today.
would love to hear Armada's thoughts on this
I think the reason you're seeing a disconnect between your opinion and "the popular sentiment" is that most people responding aren't making an abalytical logical determination for their answers they're going off of emotion/feel/vibes.
Armada has a something of a mythological aura about him at this point (as do the rest of the 5 gods).
one game the entire top 100 stomps him
a full set? i still say most win
a week later? armada reaches top 20
i disagree. armada wins the first game against even many top 10 players, then they adapt and beat him over the course of the set imo
Another point, if you teleported Trif back to Armada’s prime, he’s trashing everyone for sure lmao, way worse than Armada did. Obviously this ignores armada’s world class fox, but in the peach games Trif would be putting people on T-shirts.
imo people drastically over value tech skill. trif would trash people for a month or two until people got used to him. what makes armada great is how consistently top level he was and you can't get there with tech skill.
@@dominater5 Frankly I haven't followed Triff's tourney results closely recently, but I agree with you. Melee is so much more than "keeping up with the meta" or the latest tech. There's no way any 2024 Peach, teleported back to 2015, would somehow have MORE dominance than Armada. Maybe for like, one set against top players. Then Armada/Mango/Leffen/etc. would be like "OK you're done now."
I feel like this hypothetical is kinda like asking: "If we put Einstein into a time machine and sent him back to the 17th century, would Newton have a better general understanding of relativity than him?" Very very likely not the case. Does that automatically make Einstein the greater physicist though? Hard to say, it's a very subjective question.
This is an extremely overexaggerated example of course but it emphasizes the point of different times, different means. If you did the time machine experiment with let's say Cody, he'd very much be the more dominant player. But at the same time 2015 Armada's Fox was the prerequisite to Cody Schwab's current dominance. Cody has said time and time again that their play styles are very similar and he learned a lot from Armada. "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
Or as we Melee players like to say: "Respect your elders." ;)
I think this comparison holds when we are discussing player's legacy. Is being the best in 2024 worth more than being the best in 2016? Probably not. But would the best in 2024 beat the best player in 2016? Absolutely! So when people say "2015 Armada would beat a modern day top level player", it's like saying that Newton WOULD have the greater understanding of relativity than Einstein, which makes little sense. Now replace Einstein with one of his much worse peers of his time who still got to experience and learn what Einstein studied. They are not a better physicist than Newton historically, but they know more stuff.
@@SSBMNicki Being the best in 2024 absolutely does mean more for legacy than being the best in 2016. I don't know how you could even think otherwise, this is the best people have ever been at the game. If Melee goes on for another 8 years and Zain/Cody are still playing and being the best, there is no world where they aren't put above Armada legacy wise. The further the meta develops, the harder it is to be the best. Being a pioneer is still a tremendous feat in its own right but let's be objective here, this is the real modern era. People weren't even sliding off when Armada was playing and rarely got zero to death combos unless they were in the top 5. The meta was so much different compared to now.
@@SSBMNicki Not disagreeing with anything you said in the video btw, I was just trying to bring up this comparison to ultimately show that it's completely natural that a newer era player would have the upper hand in a direct 1v1 when compared to a player from almost 10 years ago where Sippli, UCF and a lot of meta developments weren't even a thing yet. But also to show that ultimately that kind of comparison is kinda unfair as well (in the same way comparing Einstein's knowledge to Newton's knowledge would be).
@@LevelWithKevin Delusional, you are making the name Kevin even worse than it already is.
@@youtubeonly520 You provided no actual argument, congrats.
2018 Armada would clear Trif, Preeminent, Junebug, and any Falco in the top 50 besides Mango
This is just the modern day equivalent of old heads talking about 05 ken/07 m2k/03 Isai lmao, he's getting washed
Anyone on the top 50 is beating Armada in 2015
Bro, talking about the tech in place vs fox up smash- armada INVENTED that, like 7 or 8 years ago.
Allen Shirley Thomas Susan Williams Maria
W pick on the pokemon music
one complicating factor is the existence of UCF. Does Armada also get perfect backdashes and shield drops, or are they playing on vanilla melee where the other player who knows what they'll look like, or does the 2024 player get the extra frame windows and controller position leniency that Armada doesn't?
Also, stadium wasnt frozen back then
Why not just ask him?
Bing could beat his Fox in a BO5
Bing Chilling
Honestly, the fox vs Peach MU isn't THAT different. Sure people are far more consistant now days. But i think like Grab or some Marth player would woop his ass because of the advancement in Marth in the floaty match-ups.
The level of defensive play is a lot higher in the Fox MU's.
But which fox today could out play 2015 Mango's or Leffen's fox?
The top 6 was and top 10~ now is still far apart.
You gotta think match ups advancement more than just pure tech.
Because Neutral wise, Armada was a fucking beast. No matter your advancement, if you can't win neutral, you just can't win.
But give good neutral advantage in the MU like Marth vs Peach a shot, and all of the sudden, Armada loses over and over against them.
@@NaJk93 I watched some 2015 fox dittos and I'm pretty confident that all of the modern day top 50 foxes would beat the top foxes back then in the ditto now
@@SSBMNicki Fair enough. If that is your assessment, then any top 50 should beat 2015 Armada.
I do think neutral play and adaptation is lacking in below top 30~ players. So i don't know. I find at least top 30~ to be able to pace neutral. Of an overall estimate.
MU wise though. I think the rising DK's (outside of Junebug) would even have a better chance than a top 50 Fox. Just because of advancement in the MU is by far a bigger change than Fox vs Peach.
Another point, if you teleported Trif back to Armada’s prime, he’s trashing everyone for sure lmao, way worse than Armada did. Obviously this ignores armada’s world class fox, but in the peach games Trif would be putting people on T-shirts.
Like imagine 2015 Mang0 against modern trif bro, I don’t think my goat would even have a chance.
Great video Nicki! Loved watching you at Eggdog, hope you can travel to USA more often.
No chance.
@@isambo400 2015 mango had just barely started shield dropping...it's been NINE YEARS of meta development bro, stop coping
@@gortniteasdfafds 2015 shield dropping was already a thing for everybody but mango. And mango didn't shield drop, but he certainly played around it.
I always think it's interesting when ESL (English second language) people opt to use websites in English as opposed to their native language (assuming you're German first and English second with respect to language acquisition, if not then this doesn't apply).
If you're ESL would you mind giving your answer?
What website are you thinking of? All the smash related ones are in English anyways, for most other stuff I do it because 1. it would look weird on video and 2. most of the guides are in English so if I have an issue it's easier to find a solution
I only had RUclips and Twitter in mind in this scenario, since those are both global platforms with full support for multiple languages. For stuff like Liquipedia or SSBwiki etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there were only full support for English.
I hadn't considered the angle of how it might look in a video though, if you don't use those sites in English outside of recording.
Also very funny to me seeing a Jimothy video in your recommended lmao I'm looking forward to the podcast.
For what it's worth, aMSa doesn't think peach is that bad for Yoshi. aMSa has good odds against 2015 Armada, and okay odds against 2018/"prime" armada
I think Armada still has better reads(especially in neutral) than a lot of these players and his feel for when to evade was crazy. I think Trifs grounded punish and defensive tech is better but sometimes I think Armada wouldn't fall for some of the baits or spacing that Trif does. Trif is still getting better though and he can do a lot of things that Armada can't.
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You can't make me read my own comments, that's defamation.
My meta improvement anecdote is Cody rewatching summit 11 grands on stream a few months back. His biggest takeaway was how bad and dated the gameplay was the whole way through, and that was the top 2 players in the world just 3 years ago.
I would like to argue almost everyone would get 1 set on 2015 armada very few would be able to get 2
i think one thing people don't talk about is how crucially important the clutch and intuition factor, obviously armada wouldn't be moving as fast but he would realize this time traveller was playing super fast and he would adapt very quickly by camping very carefully and playing to let his opponent make mistakes from nerves
Exactly, it’s like people have forgotten that back in the day we had fast technical Foxes like Hax, SilentWolf, and Crush (Let’s lump in Westballz’ Falco in here too) that Armada used to wipe the floor with. The adaptation and intangibles are even more important. They see the game different; it’s like the M2K “random” FSmash thing t where even Zain admits to not understanding why he goes for them and why it works.
Nicki is a Mario kart Wii fan? Pog
I think a lot of people are undervaluing the extent to which the game has changed in the past 9 years in this discussion. Hypothetical 2015 Armada has the timespan of a best of 5 that will likely start and finish in around 15-20 minutes (for most potential character matchups) to beat a modern top player who, while they lack many of the intangibles that have made Melee's historically great players so good, is up a decade in metagame advancements and matchup knowledge. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that, with prep time, this could be mostly mitigated, but this isn't the case here. The advantage this provides in a single best of 5 set is hard to overstate.
For my money and as a throwaway example, I would give Mot$ better than 50/50 odds just for his sheer quantity of modern top level experience in the matchup against Bbatts and Wally
you ain't beating armada Akir
@@ayrtonpavot3096 I never claimed I would
hawk tuah or fart armada
2015 armada might be losing to top 15 players in todays meta… no way number 30+ lmao
The real question is, who could beat him now. I swear he's better now, than he was then.
@@k1kk0ssbm13 i agree! 2024 Armada is probably better than "prime" 2018 Armada
@@SSBMNicki I know zoler told me he was recently getting giga 4 stocked over and over vs drunk armada secondaries
I could see him dropping sets in a Peach ditto (although he'd probably just go Fox), dropping a set to a top Falcon like all the other Gods (whether by spaghetti or just them getting that good/prepped), and dropping a set to any top spacie like the other Gods.
Prime Armada did drop sets to Sheiks as well so anything is possible (although he probably still top 8s anyway or gets 13th-9th at worst imo).
Axe, aMSa, Slug, etc are definitely doable by sheer number of attempts as well imo
@@SSBMNicki Does he play?
@@FP-ih1lu plays melee doubles somewhat rarely still from what I've heard
I haven't watched the whole video, but:
Melee is so much more than the latest meta, the latest tech, etc. I mean, living in SWEDEN - and before netplay - Armada was basically lagging a bit behind the latest Meta anyway, and severely lacked in practice against basically every character.
He had no clue what the "Puff meta" was in Sweden because there were no good Puffs in Sweden. He figured out how to use Young Link any to beat Hbox anyway.
Armada's Peach is so, so, so much more than just a Peach with the "latest tech that is up-to-date with the Meta and good punishes." Same with every legendary top-8 or so player.
It would be like saying that prime Shaq would get destroyed in today's NBA because the "meta has progressed and people shoot 3s more" or something. However, you can simply LOOK at prime Shaq and know that opinion is wrong. The difference with Melee is that you cannot directly peer into Armada's (and Mangos, PPMD's, etc.) beautiful Melee brain to see all what makes him great and how it is so much more than having "the most up-to-date punish game" or something like that.
EDIT: Watched a bit more. Yeah, obviously, someone like Zain, who is also a legendary top player (not to mention sort of counterpick to Armada I think, being a Marth player vs a Peach/Fox player), would likely beat Armada. That's not my point. My point is that saying that random people in the top 100 in 2024 would destroy prime Armada because the "meta has progressed" is incorrect.
Even someone like 2024 Sirmeris would 3-0 2015 Armada. 2015 Armada is relatively clueless in the ditto compared to modern peaches.
Armada would be top 6 today with 20 minutes of warm up
Aa a tech skill based player, I think you're over-valuing tech skill a weee little bit. While I DO agree that 2015 Armada will definitely be losing to the top dogs no questios asked, you're forgetting this is a GOD we're talking about. 2015 Armada is still going to have adaptation skills modern players to this day wish they had. That alone is going to allow Armada to stay afloat because yes, he will likely lose alot of game 1s in sets, but his adaptation is what separates the gods from the beasts.
I lose to players who are less technical than me all the time because they have better decision making skills and game sense than me. I PROMISE you that tech skill isn't as important as many make it out to be. Seriously, do you SEE how many technical Falco players there are out there? We'd have a frikk ton more Falco players if tech skill had more weight on how good a player gets.
I mean look at most top players who are playing non-spacie matchups, man. Theres a lot of defense and neutral going on rather than tech skill if you ask me. How do you think hbox manages to stay relevant? Its cuz hbox has been in somany situations somany times that he just has answers for literally almost any situation that comes up. Really good players still have gaps in their gameplans and can fall apart with the right player/char MU. Gods can still be susceptible to this, but they're a LOT more prepared for head-scratchers. So yeah, I mean, 2015 Armada will lose games and perhaps sets to to junebug, but he's just gonna push his glasses into his face and proceed to activate ultra-instinct.
So all in all, it is valid and safe to say Armada will be abit behind, but make no mistake that his game sense and adaptation will be his carry. I CONFIDENTLY stand by that.
i think it’s weird we hold almost 10 year old melee at such a high standard lol i know diamond 1 foxs on ranked that would give 2015 armada the hands
The average slippi diamond player can probably beat 2015 armada in a bo5, the game has evolved so much since slippi and unclepunch came out
this comment is bait
@ayrtonpavot3096 did u watch that gameplay, people would throw stuff at armada that he didn't even know existed. Armada would win a rematch tho after he learns all the new stuff
@@ayrtonpavot3096 consistent asdi down alone would completely throw off armada
You have to delete this comment dude. Diamond players are good, but not that good lol.
And this is coming from somebody who’s had a decent run with them in the past
@@ClassicGaming7 and this is coming from a TO who sees diamonds players and better play every day
No one wants to hear it but most of today's top 100 could beat armada in 2015, and it would be decently free. The average good player back then knew nothing about the game compared to now, where as all the top interaction are now common knowledge and easy to learn now
I can see top 10-30 but not 100
hell nah, no way 49th summer ranking fox beats armada any day
I swear the people sleeping on Armada are slippi zoomers
@@ayrtonpavot3096 not even 2002 child armada?
@@SSBMNicki Mayyyybe in a fistfight but in melee? Naaa
I would destroy Armada 😎
@@_Majuniorthe doc kid zoomers like myself know what was up atleast lol