Thanks for posting this video. As a RUclips creator, I have made many well-received videos on the Champlain Towers collapse and was glad to hear the discussions here of the fire alarm system in the Champlain Towers that answered many questions I had, but of course opened up many new questions. I did have one disagreement here with Matt where he says here in South Florida we don't use klaxons fire alarms everything as Florida uses Florida floor systems. But that is not correct I hear fire alarms going off all the time and condos and office buildings. And in fact if you see the videos from the police body cams when they showed up on scene at the collapse, you could hear the loud farm alarm going off at the hotel directly next door to the Champlain towers because they evacuated that building as a precaution.
Jeff, voice evac has been required by NPFA72 for a number of years. If you hear old-fashioned horn/strobes (or even bells- really old!), then said building has *old* equipment that is "grandfathered." Re: hotel next door, perhaps it's a temporary system or a really old one??
@@miltronix I know, what a moron. Armchair engineer. He likes to check into hotels and go down to their basements to look at the cracks in the concrete. Like seriously? What an asshole.
Thanks for the info, but I don't think you can blame the security person, Shamoka Furman for not pressing the botton for the all call. She was new and not trained. She even said, if she knew about it, she would have pushed it. Her coworkers also said they weren't trained either. She did what she could do, and shouldn't be blamed here or anywhere else. Just like you don't like fingers pointed at you, don't point at her.
That was an awful thing to put the blame on an employee that did not get proper training. By paying the larger amount of damages, her employer, Securitas, accepted the blame.
Thank you for posting this. This is without any doubt a factual account of what happened . It also confirmed what I had suspected from day one . The authorities in control of the site had zero interest in the truth and deliberately destroyed evidence . This allowed them to write their own narrative. The email reply says it all . “No , cheers”. Using the valediction “cheers” In this situation is so unprofessional and rather sickening. Wtf I seriously find it disgusting
The system worked flawlessly, but everybody died. :( OK, in fairness, it was a fire alarm system, so a collapse of the building was not taken into consideration. Still, considering the effort the NIST put into dissecting the collapse, it's hard to believe that that fire system panel was not preserved prior to demolition of that part of the building. Who was responsible for that decision?
Thank you for posting, Matt, I am supporting your position... I will do a support video, the bus should not be running over any of you people. They never asked for a collapse monitoring system , they do exist and engineers specify the system and they are not fire alarm companies that specify them.
If you watch the ring video from unit 907, it captured the sound of the building collapsing at 1:22 but the alarm was not going off. The resident then called 911 and on that recording you can hear her knocking on doors and talking with her neighbors, but still no alarm. It was only when she went to the stairwell that you can hear the alarm going off. If for whatever reason the alarm started going off after the building collapsed, why wasn’t another event recorded in the log and another call made to the monitoring company?
Interesting presentation. . You suggested the waterfall was due to pool draining. That is not possible. If you look at pictures of the collapse, there is at least one showing the pool was full (and clean) the next day. So it was some sort of other drain. . We had a (false) fire alarm in our 11 storey office building, most people exited. That was before 9/11.
At 41:10 this info - there is no living units on the first floor - is wrong. There were units by the pool, including the family that escaped, a dark haired lady and her family. If I'm not mistaken she was talking with the sec guard when the colapse happen
Who maintains the fire pump? All the tamper switches look old , seal tite looks old , all the valve signs are faded , I see no monitor modules was there a pump off module ? Was jockey pump on ? Pump run module ? Honestly that fire pump room doesn’t look good.
The system could’ve been installed to meet the latest standards not the years old code requirements, which were outdated. By following the latest version of NFPA 72 available then, there would’ve been redundancy required along with fault isolators.
If I understand it correctly, the article was printed before the demolition. Re-watching the session, when did alarm guy talk to the shysters? Was it before the demolition? . To whom and when did he volunteer to go into the building before the demolition? . The extra information would have contributed specific details to the NIST timeline. It would not specifically identify any causes, but it would probably give some info about the collapse progress from very early in the collapse.
@@mulan3169 thank you for the clarification, and your presentation. . Data is king. Your system generated a bunch of detailed information, but it was not captured (offsite) for analysis after the fact. Not captured because in this case HOA did not pay for the feature. . Too bad NIST was clueless. I'm not suggesting it is your fault or responsibility. You tried. NIST should have contacted you as part of their initial investigation. . NIST has to update their procedure to require they immediately identify and "requisition" this sort of computer generated info, ie fire alarm system, security system, any other digital metering on the site. Another example would be electrical consumption if it is billed on a time of day rate basis. At the very least, interruption of various services would help identify the progression of the "event" through the site. . The fire regulations need to be updated to require mandatory download of the detailed information (if it is generated by the alarm system) to offsite location (your system or fire department) any time the alarm is triggered. Backing up data off site is a relatively trivial task . The fire department investigators could use the extra details as part of subsequent "normal" fire investigations, not just this massive disaster scenario. . Just curious, do you have any other photos of the pool pump area. Photos of the pool pump from a slightly different point of view were taken by another repairman only a few weeks before the collapse show significant "spalling" in the concrete beams. You didn't notice it at the time. So it would be interesting to compare any other photos you have of that area with the recent ones to see how much the concrete deterioration progressed in the 2 1/2 year interval after you were down there.
As soon as we receive a signal Premier fire was on top of this we had reached out to the property manager we had stressed the importance of retrieving the CPU a.k.a. blackbox I personally volunteered to go into the building because I knew this day of reckoning was coming and we needed to have all of our evidence in place had we removed the CPU it would’ve shown what device triggered what time location and action it did all although this was a catastrophe the sprinkler pipes and infrastructure was crushed in the parking garage in the initial collapse again this is not a seismic detection system it’s a fire alarm system we need heat to trigger a sprinkler head smoke particles to trigger a smoke detector or water flow movement in the sprinkler pipe to activate the flow switch The fire alarm system did an extraordinary job it’s not designed for building collapse whatever triggered it thank God it did imagine if it had Said no signal to the fire department those trucks wouldn’t have gotten there as quickly as they did
@@joblo341 I personally volunteered to go into the building I provided email telephone notifications etc. I was being proactive from the very beginning the professionals i.e. fire department nist other government agencies why didn’t they retrieve this unit?? I knew the importance of it from day one
I had offered to retrieve the black box the moment we receive the call we knew the importance of having this information I personally volunteered to go into the building and was refused
So basically the alarm system did not save anyone. And the alarm was going off prob because the water flow was activated because the pipes where broken and dust debris there was a fire post collapse
The building was 100% fully fire sprinkled it was not a requirement to fully add smoke detectors throughout we offered it the property declined the only areas of smoke detector coverage is in the unoccupied spaces i.e. electrical rooms storage rooms elevator machine room etc. in the unit there is standalone smoke detectors not inter-connected with the main fire alarm system this is not a code requirement reason being they do not want grandma burning toast and dispatching the fire department every time there’s an alarm that’s the reason for the separate systems
The reason the building did not have full smoke detection throughout it was not a requirement smoke detectors are only required in the unoccupied spaces i.e. storage rooms electrical rooms laundry rooms etc. this building was a fully sprinkled building including the living units so there is a trade-off if a sprinkler head was doing gauge it would obviously move water in the pipe activate a flow switch and trigger the alarm for smoke detection is frowned upon in condominiums because if grandma Burns toast it will engage the fire department that is An additional reason why it’s not a requirement although I had provided the building with a quote to add the smoke detectors they declined condominiums with snowbirds especially the high end buildings will install system smoke detectors in their unit and program that device for supervisory only sell it can be verified before engaging the fire department Sorry for any typos I speak into the phone
Last comment…. Sorry to be a pain in the ass.. I. Forgot to mention… 2” conduit to do a retrofit? That’s LUCK! I spent my youth bending pipe for my grandfather and dad. They knew true craftsmanship and were torture to work with. Now I look back with pride and admiration and gratitude for the skills and work ethic they instilled in me. I tried to bring Wiremold 500l/700 (steel - not the thermoplastic of today) onto an old apartment building and was laughed out by our IBEW union folk. It was ALL rigid and IMC back in those days. 🤣 Again, GREAT and informative presentation. I reached out to a friend at “Fire Engineering”, you should be profiled in an upcoming edition. There’s ALOT to be learned from this entire tragedy.
Such a horrible system (up to code or not) that only adjacent floors get alarm, and others floors will get alarm just after human interaction. I hope this will make changes in code requirements to make whole system fully automated. Saying that stairwells will get crowded make zero sense to me. I saw triple size buildings where alarm go off in entire building and everything safely leave it through stairwells. You should not blame security person like this, she did what she can do. Night security are always least familiar with building, and things like this happens once in 100 years. That’s why you can’t rely on human action when we talking about life and safety.
Floor of incident and above and below is a proven method , there are safeguards in the building code to enhance this system. Your argument that the whole building should go off is moot. Also I don’t think the individual guard is responsible her employer must ensure and document her training. The FIRE system did its job and honestly exceeded all of NFPA 72 Requirements, but we must not forget this was a collapse not an earthquake , tornado, hurricane. The fact that notification appliances were still going off after the collapse is impressive. You want Safety or Wi-Fi Because that’s were the money is being invested.
This security training thing is another interesting thing. Are others security guards were trained and just this person was missed? Did Securitas had any guidance what to train their staff at all? Security company provides guards for the shift, but directions about building specifics has to come from building management, maintenance personnel and such. Usually there should be written instructions or SOP’s on fire panel or somewhere else about this type of things.
Ok think about it. You are in let's say a 40 story high rise right, the entire fire alarm system is going off, people running and rushing to the stairwells and you think not 1 person will get hurt? It one person falls down the stairs a bunch will follow and more people will get trampled then what are you gonna try and put the blame on? Fire alarm systems are not in place to warm you that the building is about to collapse they are to warm for fire and sometimes Carbon monoxide. Don't try and put the blame on the fire alarm system if you don't know how it or the codes work.
Fire and, most importantly, smoke can quickly spread. That only three floors get the alarm is bonkers. There are crucial moments one can pass thru a fire, if the sprinklers fail to contain the fire. If the stairs cannot safely be used to evacuate all ppl, they have been planned wrong. I rather be grumpy going on the stairs, that waiting for the smoke to reach my floor to leave.
@@tesstess3371 these high rises are also implemented with smoke purge or smoke evac systems. Basically there is giant fans on the top floor in the stairwell that open up vents and would turn on the fans in a fire alarm event. It creates a negative pressure in there so another fan would be on the 1st floor to create positive pressure bringing in air from outside into the stairwell to equalize it
To say the alarm instalation was "like a new build" is odd. At 32:00 there is a thin wire leaving the panel, and a power strip nearby. The camera shown in the lobby was facing the door, and not the panel.
I just found this recording of the actual 911 call from the building ruclips.net/video/QNYqV7ySDrY/видео.html There is no sound of a fire alarm that I could hear. If the alarm had triggered in the lobby and then the guard turned it off before the 911 call, would that show up in the log information at the alarm company?
When we received the call from the alarm panel and notified the property there was alarm speakers going off in the background in fact we have the evidence from the dispatcher that received the initial call our assumption the panel was silence due to the security guards response thought it was an earthquake that’s what she said possibly did not want to wake the residence
Since the fire system kept sending a battery powered "I'm alive" signal, which included text messages, I wonder why the alarm company could not access it to trigger remote download of the system? Did they not think of it? Did they not design the feature into the system? Hackers remotely download data all the time. Maybe next time ... . Like an aircraft "black box", they wouldn't need all 3000 events, just the last hour or so of events and video. . Since this event, have they considered backing up all of their systems from onsite to offsite storage so there is no need to physically recover the CPU. Periodic, scheduled, offsite backup is a computer industry best practice. Why aren't they doing it? I'm not suggesting they did anything "wrong", but they could/should do better in the future, in the name of public safety, if nothing else. . Maybe they could add a protocol that when an alarm is triggered, an early backup and simultaneous live stream for an hour or so after an event (ie just in case the first resolution of false alarm is wrong as it was in this case) to the off site backup is also triggered. It should not be offered as an added expense. It should be part of their base offering.
You can't remote download with these panels, you can however view events remotely when the tech is implemented but the condo opted out of that feature due to "budgets"
@@mulan3169 correct me if I'm wrong but I think if the 3030 or any other onyx panel from notifier is connected to onyx works you should be able to view everything remotely
@@mulan3169 Actually, the alarm system owner said that something like that was an option that the condo chose not to pay for. . Based on my experience with computers and the features described for this control panel I suspect it is run by a "desktop" equivalent computer. That is a computer that includes some sort of "hard" drive and an internet connection. . I am not saying it is a Windows "desktop" computer, just hardware with similar functionality. Hopefully it is actually running something more secure like a customized Linux. . If my educated guess is close, then all they probably need to do is add some programming, no extra hardware required.
AES mesh networks are some of the more reliable and robust RF transmission methods of alarms, troubles and supervisory signals. Due to the fact it utilizes RF spectrum that’s coordinated and regulated by the FCC, it’s not reliant on the cellular common networks. The costs have dropped so low now for redundant signaling, it pays to install multiple methods. AES / AlarmNet / Cellular / and good old 2 line POTS. In the past years, we’ve removed most McCullogh and leased copper “BA” circuits. At their peak, we were paying up to $120/month per circuit! The “Security” Guard sounded like a buffoon on the 911 call. NEVER trust your life to the low bidder! IMHO - the fire alarm company seems to have covered most of the bases here. Kudos for speaking on this topic.
Thank u for info I think nobodey had to blame for that collapse It had collapse anyway Think it was building wrong from the started Brigdes is collapsed too,around in the world from norway
I was commenting on another video, but over the years, many simular buildings have been built! I was a trucker, had some extra time, drove down the coastline of Florida, towards Miami, some six hundred miles of these buildings, built along the beautiful, Atlantic. Can you imagine how much it would cost to have all these places demolished, 600 hundred miles of buildings need to go, unless you fancy being squished like a bug, during the night!
This is disgraceful. Blaming the overnight shift security guard, who admittedly got just 8 hours of God knows what kind of training, paid minimum salary and tried best effort to alert residents with what she could do. Like she was supposed to have the expertise of a structural engineer, a geologist that understands seismic activity, have knowledge of the gross mismanagement of everyone involved in the construction of this building and be empowered by her employer to order an evacuation of the building residents knowing of an impending catastrophic collapse.
The Sonoma County officials who had been trained for EXACTLY knowing what to do, had high-tech alert systems at their disposal and DECIDED not to, can in no way be compared to this person for exactly the reasons you stated, Cryan.
Why did you say you got a signal of a faulty pull station and then you said a resident said it didn’t work. Get your story straight. And looks like your system failed to work when it was needed as evidenced by the pull station not working when it was pulled.
System worked absolutely flawlessly there was a defective pool station sent a trouble signal to my central station we replaced it immediately a week later we did the annual inspection there were no deviations to be found this inspection was done a year prior to the collapse there were no troubles on this panel panel had a green light this was human error 1000%
@@williamhaynes7089 The CPU was not crushed at all in fact the entire lobby was intact it would’ve been very easy to remove if they allowed me to I’ve made several calls email request with no reply back
@@williamhaynes7089 Read the previous response the pull station was replaced a year ago and annual inspection was done soon after there was no deviations found You sound just like a smut peddler trying to mix up the story rehashing a tragedy
@@mulan3169 i dont blame alarm company on this even 1%... I believe the various cameras around property that seem to be unavailable would answer most people questions.
Why would the guard manually hit the all call? No one would do that. This seminar was stupid. Sprinkled, it’s called sprinklered. Also, what’s the point of a fire alarm if someone needs to be trained to activate a all call. This is ridiculous.
The fire alarm system is simply a tool it’s still need human interaction to operate properly does not have AI intelligence it’s not a catchall alarm system
considering a fire didn't set off the system and most likely wires being torn when walls/floors collapsed... a check of the security cameras etc.. should have been done, then do an 'all call' if there is any doubt
@@williamhaynes7089 William many things could’ve happened at the fire alarm system is not a seismic detection system it could’ve collapsed the sprinkler pipes triggering a flow switch it could’ve been a catastrophic event crashing the cabling we do not know had they give me permission to retrieve the CPU it acts like a black box it would’ve provided the entire story in real time including if there was malicious intent if somebody touched a button to reset the panel etc.
Thanks for posting this video. As a RUclips creator, I have made many well-received videos on the Champlain Towers collapse and was glad to hear the discussions here of the fire alarm system in the Champlain Towers that answered many questions I had, but of course opened up many new questions. I did have one disagreement here with Matt where he says here in South Florida we don't use klaxons fire alarms everything as Florida uses Florida floor systems. But that is not correct I hear fire alarms going off all the time and condos and office buildings. And in fact if you see the videos from the police body cams when they showed up on scene at the collapse, you could hear the loud farm alarm going off at the hotel directly next door to the Champlain towers because they evacuated that building as a precaution.
Jeff, voice evac has been required by NPFA72 for a number of years. If you hear old-fashioned horn/strobes (or even bells- really old!), then said building has *old* equipment that is "grandfathered." Re: hotel next door, perhaps it's a temporary system or a really old one??
@@miltronix I know, what a moron. Armchair engineer. He likes to check into hotels and go down to their basements to look at the cracks in the concrete. Like seriously? What an asshole.
Rapid Response + Dr. Jeffrey Atkins is a Lou Pomper Trainee. lol
Thanks for the info, but I don't think you can blame the security person, Shamoka Furman for not pressing the botton for the all call. She was new and not trained. She even said, if she knew about it, she would have pushed it. Her coworkers also said they weren't trained either. She did what she could do, and shouldn't be blamed here or anywhere else. Just like you don't like fingers pointed at you, don't point at her.
That was an awful thing to put the blame on an employee that did not get proper training. By paying the larger amount of damages, her employer, Securitas, accepted the blame.
It is the fault of the employees supervisor, not the employee. They had responsibility to provide trained qualified people.
Thank you for posting this. This is without any doubt a factual account of what happened . It also confirmed what I had suspected from day one . The authorities in control of the site had zero interest in the truth and deliberately destroyed evidence . This allowed them to write their own narrative. The email reply says it all . “No , cheers”.
Using the valediction “cheers” In this situation is so unprofessional and rather sickening. Wtf I seriously find it disgusting
The system worked flawlessly, but everybody died. :(
OK, in fairness, it was a fire alarm system, so a collapse of the building was not taken into consideration. Still, considering the effort the NIST put into dissecting the collapse, it's hard to believe that that fire system panel was not preserved prior to demolition of that part of the building. Who was responsible for that decision?
Thank you for posting, Matt, I am supporting your position...
I will do a support video, the bus should not be running over any of you people.
They never asked for a collapse monitoring system , they do exist and engineers specify the system and they are not fire alarm companies that specify them.
ruclips.net/video/nYznlq4fZxs/видео.html my video reaction,. only a couple of questions... Again, thank you for speaking up.
If you watch the ring video from unit 907, it captured the sound of the building collapsing at 1:22 but the alarm was not going off. The resident then called 911 and on that recording you can hear her knocking on doors and talking with her neighbors, but still no alarm. It was only when she went to the stairwell that you can hear the alarm going off. If for whatever reason the alarm started going off after the building collapsed, why wasn’t another event recorded in the log and another call made to the monitoring company?
thanks
Interesting presentation.
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You suggested the waterfall was due to pool draining. That is not possible. If you look at pictures of the collapse, there is at least one showing the pool was full (and clean) the next day. So it was some sort of other drain.
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We had a (false) fire alarm in our 11 storey office building, most people exited. That was before 9/11.
At 41:10 this info - there is no living units on the first floor - is wrong. There were units by the pool, including the family that escaped, a dark haired lady and her family. If I'm not mistaken she was talking with the sec guard when the colapse happen
Who maintains the fire pump? All the tamper switches look old , seal tite looks old , all the valve signs are faded , I see no monitor modules was there a pump off module ? Was jockey pump on ? Pump run module ? Honestly that fire pump room doesn’t look good.
The system could’ve been installed to meet the latest standards not the years old code requirements, which were outdated. By following the latest version of NFPA 72 available then, there would’ve been redundancy required along with fault isolators.
If I understand it correctly, the article was printed before the demolition.
Re-watching the session, when did alarm guy talk to the shysters? Was it before the demolition?
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To whom and when did he volunteer to go into the building before the demolition?
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The extra information would have contributed specific details to the NIST timeline. It would not specifically identify any causes, but it would probably give some info about the collapse progress from very early in the collapse.
we informed the building manager the same morning the importance of the black box and what it records went on deaf ears
@@mulan3169 thank you for the clarification, and your presentation.
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Data is king. Your system generated a bunch of detailed information, but it was not captured (offsite) for analysis after the fact. Not captured because in this case HOA did not pay for the feature.
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Too bad NIST was clueless. I'm not suggesting it is your fault or responsibility. You tried. NIST should have contacted you as part of their initial investigation.
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NIST has to update their procedure to require they immediately identify and "requisition" this sort of computer generated info, ie fire alarm system, security system, any other digital metering on the site. Another example would be electrical consumption if it is billed on a time of day rate basis. At the very least, interruption of various services would help identify the progression of the "event" through the site.
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The fire regulations need to be updated to require mandatory download of the detailed information (if it is generated by the alarm system) to offsite location (your system or fire department) any time the alarm is triggered. Backing up data off site is a relatively trivial task . The fire department investigators could use the extra details as part of subsequent "normal" fire investigations, not just this massive disaster scenario.
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Just curious, do you have any other photos of the pool pump area. Photos of the pool pump from a slightly different point of view were taken by another repairman only a few weeks before the collapse show significant "spalling" in the concrete beams. You didn't notice it at the time. So it would be interesting to compare any other photos you have of that area with the recent ones to see how much the concrete deterioration progressed in the 2 1/2 year interval after you were down there.
As soon as we receive a signal Premier fire was on top of this we had reached out to the property manager we had stressed the importance of retrieving the CPU a.k.a. blackbox I personally volunteered to go into the building because I knew this day of reckoning was coming and we needed to have all of our evidence in place had we removed the CPU it would’ve shown what device triggered what time location and action it did all although this was a catastrophe the sprinkler pipes and infrastructure was crushed in the parking garage in the initial collapse again this is not a seismic detection system it’s a fire alarm system we need heat to trigger a sprinkler head smoke particles to trigger a smoke detector or water flow movement in the sprinkler pipe to activate the flow switch
The fire alarm system did an extraordinary job it’s not designed for building collapse whatever triggered it thank God it did imagine if it had Said no signal to the fire department those trucks wouldn’t have gotten there as quickly as they did
@@joblo341 I personally volunteered to go into the building I provided email telephone notifications etc. I was being proactive from the very beginning the professionals i.e. fire department nist other government agencies why didn’t they retrieve this unit??
I knew the importance of it from day one
I had offered to retrieve the black box the moment we receive the call we knew the importance of having this information I personally volunteered to go into the building and was refused
So basically the alarm system did not save anyone. And the alarm was going off prob because the water flow was activated because the pipes where broken and dust debris there was a fire post collapse
sounds like it didn't, but it was installed per regulations and per the Building owners (aka association of condo tenants)
Where is the security system videos?
for whatever reason they seem to have evaporated... plenty of cameras around
All those cameras and no video has or probably will ever be released to public... I hope NIST gets them for their investigation
How could there be no smoke detectors in the common corridors? What a system.
The building was 100% fully fire sprinkled it was not a requirement to fully add smoke detectors throughout we offered it the property declined the only areas of smoke detector coverage is in the unoccupied spaces i.e. electrical rooms storage rooms elevator machine room etc. in the unit there is standalone smoke detectors not inter-connected with the main fire alarm system this is not a code requirement reason being they do not want grandma burning toast and dispatching the fire department every time there’s an alarm that’s the reason for the separate systems
The reason the building did not have full smoke detection throughout it was not a requirement smoke detectors are only required in the unoccupied spaces i.e. storage rooms electrical rooms laundry rooms etc. this building was a fully sprinkled building including the living units so there is a trade-off if a sprinkler head was doing gauge it would obviously move water in the pipe activate a flow switch and trigger the alarm for smoke detection is frowned upon in condominiums because if grandma Burns toast it will engage the fire department that is An additional reason why it’s not a requirement although I had provided the building with a quote to add the smoke detectors they declined condominiums with snowbirds especially the high end buildings will install system smoke detectors in their unit and program that device for supervisory only sell it can be verified before engaging the fire department
Sorry for any typos I speak into the phone
Last comment…. Sorry to be a pain in the ass..
I. Forgot to mention…
2” conduit to do a retrofit? That’s LUCK!
I spent my youth bending pipe for my grandfather and dad. They knew true craftsmanship and were torture to work with.
Now I look back with pride and admiration and gratitude for the skills and work ethic they instilled in me.
I tried to bring Wiremold 500l/700 (steel - not the thermoplastic of today) onto an old apartment building and was laughed out by our IBEW union folk. It was ALL rigid and IMC back in those days. 🤣
Again, GREAT and informative presentation.
I reached out to a friend at “Fire Engineering”, you should be profiled in an upcoming edition.
There’s ALOT to be learned from this entire tragedy.
if the fault of the collapse was the 'owners' being cheap... many of them got the death penalty alreday.
Such a horrible system (up to code or not) that only adjacent floors get alarm, and others floors will get alarm just after human interaction. I hope this will make changes in code requirements to make whole system fully automated. Saying that stairwells will get crowded make zero sense to me. I saw triple size buildings where alarm go off in entire building and everything safely leave it through stairwells. You should not blame security person like this, she did what she can do. Night security are always least familiar with building, and things like this happens once in 100 years. That’s why you can’t rely on human action when we talking about life and safety.
Floor of incident and above and below is a proven method , there are safeguards in the building code to enhance this system. Your argument that the whole building should go off is moot. Also I don’t think the individual guard is responsible her employer must ensure and document her training. The FIRE system did its job and honestly exceeded all of NFPA 72 Requirements, but we must not forget this was a collapse not an earthquake , tornado, hurricane. The fact that notification appliances were still going off after the collapse is impressive.
You want Safety or Wi-Fi Because that’s were the money is being invested.
This security training thing is another interesting thing. Are others security guards were trained and just this person was missed? Did Securitas had any guidance what to train their staff at all? Security company provides guards for the shift, but directions about building specifics has to come from building management, maintenance personnel and such. Usually there should be written instructions or SOP’s on fire panel or somewhere else about this type of things.
Ok think about it. You are in let's say a 40 story high rise right, the entire fire alarm system is going off, people running and rushing to the stairwells and you think not 1 person will get hurt? It one person falls down the stairs a bunch will follow and more people will get trampled then what are you gonna try and put the blame on? Fire alarm systems are not in place to warm you that the building is about to collapse they are to warm for fire and sometimes Carbon monoxide. Don't try and put the blame on the fire alarm system if you don't know how it or the codes work.
Fire and, most importantly, smoke can quickly spread. That only three floors get the alarm is bonkers. There are crucial moments one can pass thru a fire, if the sprinklers fail to contain the fire. If the stairs cannot safely be used to evacuate all ppl, they have been planned wrong. I rather be grumpy going on the stairs, that waiting for the smoke to reach my floor to leave.
@@tesstess3371 these high rises are also implemented with smoke purge or smoke evac systems. Basically there is giant fans on the top floor in the stairwell that open up vents and would turn on the fans in a fire alarm event. It creates a negative pressure in there so another fan would be on the 1st floor to create positive pressure bringing in air from outside into the stairwell to equalize it
To say the alarm instalation was "like a new build" is odd. At 32:00 there is a thin wire leaving the panel, and a power strip nearby. The camera shown in the lobby was facing the door, and not the panel.
still would have loved to see video, i'm sure it would have answered some questions
Good video. Not nitpicking, but hard drive is probably what you’re looking for to recover the stored data, not the cpu
No it’s the CPU .
There's no hard drive on this panel
I just found this recording of the actual 911 call from the building
ruclips.net/video/QNYqV7ySDrY/видео.html
There is no sound of a fire alarm that I could hear.
If the alarm had triggered in the lobby and then the guard turned it off before the 911 call, would that show up in the log information at the alarm company?
When we received the call from the alarm panel and notified the property there was alarm speakers going off in the background in fact we have the evidence from the dispatcher that received the initial call our assumption the panel was silence due to the security guards response thought it was an earthquake that’s what she said possibly did not want to wake the residence
Doesn't this type building require a Fire Safety Director as opposed to just a security guard?
Hmm Extremely interesting . This is the never ending story
Since the fire system kept sending a battery powered "I'm alive" signal, which included text messages, I wonder why the alarm company could not access it to trigger remote download of the system? Did they not think of it? Did they not design the feature into the system? Hackers remotely download data all the time. Maybe next time ...
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Like an aircraft "black box", they wouldn't need all 3000 events, just the last hour or so of events and video.
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Since this event, have they considered backing up all of their systems from onsite to offsite storage so there is no need to physically recover the CPU. Periodic, scheduled, offsite backup is a computer industry best practice. Why aren't they doing it? I'm not suggesting they did anything "wrong", but they could/should do better in the future, in the name of public safety, if nothing else.
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Maybe they could add a protocol that when an alarm is triggered, an early backup and simultaneous live stream for an hour or so after an event (ie just in case the first resolution of false alarm is wrong as it was in this case) to the off site backup is also triggered. It should not be offered as an added expense. It should be part of their base offering.
You can't remote download with these panels, you can however view events remotely when the tech is implemented but the condo opted out of that feature due to "budgets"
doesn't exist in Fire alarm panels
@@mulan3169 correct me if I'm wrong but I think if the 3030 or any other onyx panel from notifier is connected to onyx works you should be able to view everything remotely
@@mulan3169 Actually, the alarm system owner said that something like that was an option that the condo chose not to pay for.
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Based on my experience with computers and the features described for this control panel I suspect it is run by a "desktop" equivalent computer. That is a computer that includes some sort of "hard" drive and an internet connection.
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I am not saying it is a Windows "desktop" computer, just hardware with similar functionality. Hopefully it is actually running something more secure like a customized Linux.
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If my educated guess is close, then all they probably need to do is add some programming, no extra hardware required.
AES mesh networks are some of the more reliable and robust RF transmission methods of alarms, troubles and supervisory signals. Due to the fact it utilizes RF spectrum that’s coordinated and regulated by the FCC, it’s not reliant on the cellular common networks. The costs have dropped so low now for redundant signaling, it pays to install multiple methods.
AES / AlarmNet / Cellular / and good old 2 line POTS.
In the past years, we’ve removed most McCullogh and leased copper “BA” circuits.
At their peak, we were paying up to $120/month per circuit!
The “Security” Guard sounded like a buffoon on the 911 call.
NEVER trust your life to the low bidder!
IMHO - the fire alarm company seems to have covered most of the bases here.
Kudos for speaking on this topic.
Thank u for info I think nobodey had to blame for that collapse It had collapse anyway Think it was building wrong from the started Brigdes is collapsed too,around in the world from norway
I was commenting on another video, but over the years, many simular buildings have been built! I was a trucker, had some extra time, drove down the coastline of Florida, towards Miami, some six hundred miles of these buildings, built along the beautiful, Atlantic. Can you imagine how much it would cost to have all these places demolished, 600 hundred miles of buildings need to go, unless you fancy being squished like a bug, during the night!
It's only 350 miles from Jacksonville to Miami.
This is disgraceful. Blaming the overnight shift security guard, who admittedly got just 8 hours of God knows what kind of training, paid minimum salary and tried best effort to alert residents with what she could do. Like she was supposed to have the expertise of a structural engineer, a geologist that understands seismic activity, have knowledge of the gross mismanagement of everyone involved in the construction of this building and be empowered by her employer to order an evacuation of the building residents knowing of an impending catastrophic collapse.
The Sonoma County officials who had been trained for EXACTLY knowing what to do, had high-tech alert systems at their disposal and DECIDED not to, can in no way be compared to this person for exactly the reasons you stated, Cryan.
Of course when the fire alarm company is blamed it’s fine!
Considering the building residents could choose anyone or any company to watch the system, they went low budget
Why did you say you got a signal of a faulty pull station and then you said a resident said it didn’t work. Get your story straight. And looks like your system failed to work when it was needed as evidenced by the pull station not working when it was pulled.
System worked absolutely flawlessly there was a defective pool station sent a trouble signal to my central station we replaced it immediately a week later we did the annual inspection there were no deviations to be found this inspection was done a year prior to the collapse there were no troubles on this panel panel had a green light this was human error 1000%
the black box was squashed, they should have removed it and analized it before the building demolition.
@@williamhaynes7089 The CPU was not crushed at all in fact the entire lobby was intact it would’ve been very easy to remove if they allowed me to I’ve made several calls email request with no reply back
@@williamhaynes7089 Read the previous response the pull station was replaced a year ago and annual inspection was done soon after there was no deviations found You sound just like a smut peddler trying to mix up the story rehashing a tragedy
@@mulan3169 i dont blame alarm company on this even 1%... I believe the various cameras around property that seem to be unavailable would answer most people questions.
Why would the guard manually hit the all call? No one would do that. This seminar was stupid. Sprinkled, it’s called sprinklered. Also, what’s the point of a fire alarm if someone needs to be trained to activate a all call. This is ridiculous.
The fire alarm system is simply a tool it’s still need human interaction to operate properly does not have AI intelligence it’s not a catchall alarm system
considering a fire didn't set off the system and most likely wires being torn when walls/floors collapsed... a check of the security cameras etc.. should have been done, then do an 'all call' if there is any doubt
@@williamhaynes7089 William many things could’ve happened at the fire alarm system is not a seismic detection system it could’ve collapsed the sprinkler pipes triggering a flow switch it could’ve been a catastrophic event crashing the cabling we do not know had they give me permission to retrieve the CPU it acts like a black box it would’ve provided the entire story in real time including if there was malicious intent if somebody touched a button to reset the panel etc.
RE: Presentation - clumsy, self-aggrandizing at times and questionable in regard to the participants.
You are not wrong. I'm finding it hard to stay with.
its more information than i ever expected to be released. Learned a lot about fire systems in general.