Incredibly, one of your best videos yet, Jeff. Just incredible. I had no idea that NCST would do so many tests and that NCST used so many techniques to test for stability, loss of strength, and complete failure. Just amazing. If I would've looked through all of this.....I would've never understood any of it. Thank you Jeff, this was a very long video, but I stayed with you til the end. I can't wait to see the finished product of the NCST investigation. And ironically NCST will investigate the remodeling of each condo......validation of your investigations of causes.
Thanks for staying through to the end these slide presentations were from at least a 1/2 a dozen different presentations that lasted all day long. So I took hours worth of Information and filter it down to under an hour.
@@dennissalisbury496 thanks Dennis, I tried to edit out my C's and replace them with I's, but because Jeff pinned it....RUclips won't let me fix it. Thank you for pointing it out to me. No one wants to spell something wrong....so thank you kindly.
God bless you Jeff, you've gone above and beyond with the CTS collapse. No one has come close to you with the information and breakdown of events/floorplans/timelines. You've given us all an understanding and hopefully some peace to the souls lost in the collapse.
@@jeffostroff you're most welcome. Keep up the amazing work. If anything you're saving lives by helping us identify some things we'd never truly know about without your videos 🙏
It blows my mind how such a building collapse in modern times. I’ve watched every one of your videos on the Champlain towers collapse and I want to compliment you on the awesome job you’re doing. Keep up the great work! You make it easy for the layman to understand, and do a great job explaining the technical aspects and important details. I’ll be interested to see how close NIST is to your hypothesis!!
I'm not. anotehr channel I watch is a pair of guys that check out abandoned places. they can go into a place abandoned for decades and built long ago and while some are total losses many are structurely sound and with some work can be used again. then you have buildings made 20 years ago and they are fallign apart without regualr mataince. heck when this condo collapsed they were checkign out another condo that is 15 years old and is already having major structal issues. thankfully that board is on it.
Can you imagine living in NYC on billionaire’s row in these ultra high and tall skyscrapers. I watched a documentary on the problems these buildings are all ready having, which are only a few years old. It is unthinkable what the outcome would be if this happened to one of those buildings. It is so glamorous to think of living like that, but now I am glad I live on the ground, lol.
I could listen to your voice convey this information for hours on end. Please do more of these . I do not have an engineering or construction background, but you explain everything in lay terms so that regular people (i.e. potential condo buyers and current owners) can truly understand. Your explanations are not only fascinating but also help calm many of your viewers anxieties with empowering information. Thank you, thank you.
You are very correct. The remodels in the apartments add up substantially! Tile, mastic, mortar, marble slabs, non-builder grade cabinets, quartz and marble countertops all add tremendous weight. My daughter wanted to put in a soaker tub in her second story bath area - 100 lb acrylic tub BUT 260 lbs of water and a person!! What great updates - I admit some of it is bla bla bla but very informative and appreciated!
Thanks mark yes this was a very difficult video to get it down in size because I had to basically take between 6 and 830 minute presentations that were given over an entire day and contents it down my original goal for this was to not exceed 30 minutes lol
@@jeffostroff oh wow, that's a lot of work. I second that opinion, this video was not too long. I didn't even realize it was almost an hour, you tied it together very well.
I agree that all the marble tile, cabinets, countertops, etc added additional weight....but how would this make the pool deck collapse (which appears to have failed first)??
This must be the most pain-stakingly analyzed building collapse ever. It amazing, and very interesting, to see what this investigation entails. Thanks for this very complete overview - your hard work and knowledge base shows!
Excellent, comprehensive, easy for the layman to understand. I pay attention now to new surroundings. I was at an exclusive hunting hotel and noticed such repairs/damage to underground garage roofs. Your reporting may actually save lives.
I have no idea whether this is possible, but it would be cool if Jeff could do a spreadsheet estimating how many pounds were added to the apartment with the marble and glass etc. renovations. A bit of research into records to get an estimate of how many units were remodeled, and a summary guess to compare to what the $22,000,000 dollar budget people come up with. It isn't trivial over-kill at all. There have been notable structural failures caused by nothing more than too many people at one time, and airlines revised their number for "average human weight of passengers" to account for, well ... more weight than average ... the take-off weight of an airplane is critical.
I was talking to a doctor his wife last year who said they saw some of my earlier videos on the collapse in lapse and while shopping for a new office they passed up one particular place because of garage damage
It is fascinating to see why this is taking so long, I would have never guessed they would do all of these details. What I think is kind of ironic, you and Building Integrity had a lot of the answers from the very beginning. I know it can't stop there but I am so thankful for all of the hard work you two have put in to help us all learn. I also imagine your videos have help the people who lost everything put the pieces of the puzzle together since it's going to take years for an official answer.
Hi Jeff, from Sydney, Australia. I've watched every one of your impressive Champlain Towers collapse videos. I'm 66yrs old & have seen the damage caused through excessive weight loads on 2 heritage buildings. In the first example in 1989 there was a structural collapse of the 2 uppermost floors in a 4 storey building , several people were trapped for several days. The second building also belonging to the retail group I worked for for over 30 years. My Grandad an engineer, and nana's brother, his best friend were both engineers one a Architect and engineer & my Pa an industrial engineer and metallurgist. The 3 of us were supposed to be having lunch together. However they had come old school early they were looking around at the building to kill time whilst I was busy . These 2 guys lived and breathed engineering, life long friends when they went to school together as 5 year olds and lived to their late 90's. What they found was the beginning of structural failure , caused by having TOO MUCH weight up high in a old 9 storey retail building which had also been assisted by near 100 years of vibrations from a vast gas powered Robert Carrier early air conditioning unit. Within 2 weeks of their findings , we were out of the building , several weeks after that part of the rear top floor of the building gave way , then the building was carefully pulled down. Problem was upper now non retail floors being used as vast stock storage facility in an old building that was clearly not built to be used effectively as a warehouse. We sold books & stationery both massively heavy dead weights like boxes of ceramic tiles and massive sheets of marble slab. Put 10 cartons of books in a station wagon and see what happens to its suspension.. HOWEVER that story aside , I am really shocked at the massive use of re-bar in a multi level building . our Aussie building codes seem way different , as my aforementioned great uncle built multi level apartments around Sydney in the 50's 60's & 70's. I remember looking at each & every one of them , however we here in Sydney use massive steel I bars for the verticals and the cross bars & then covered in cement I was kind of shocked to see the USA style construction. From a magazine 60 years ago when in Sydney we were building what was then the tallest building in the southern hemisphere , the Sydney Square Tower 50 floors high , with tall ceilings , so a tall 50 floors . It is round, a complete giant circle , on the top it has the revolving restaurant. What it was compared to was the proposed at the time New York world trade centre building designs, From time life magazines it was very informative as it stated that the amount of reinforced steel going into just the ONE Sydney building was well over what was going into the TWO main New York trade centre tower buildings. That by comparison the Sydney building was being built to vault/fortress strengths that it had the same overkill structural integrity like the Sydney Harbour Bridge . This same build it just once and to a design requiring minimum maintenance is exactly how Sydney CBD's triple level underground railway was built a100 yrs ago. Many of the buildings in the city's core were demolished the streets all straightened to be 90degree intersections , zero bends. Then massive excavations into the granite and sandstone were carried out and the whole below ground railway network was built in massive steel I bars made to purpose. drainage was also thought of carefully as well to zero out rust issues. "Underground" work was completed beneath the major streets and was then "lidded" in concrete and steel. They did not tunnel one inch , it was a complete manmade construction from the top down and usual Aussie style massive overkill giving mega strength and to the usual maxim of do it/build it just once to last indefinitely.
Wow Jeff, you've really outdone yourself with this one. Seeing screenshots of the footage in high resolution was a real treat. So much detail. Thank you for your hard work and for regularly keeping us informed. Know that we appreciate it very much.
Terrific video Jeff, thank you. It's mind-boggling as to how incredibly comprehensive this overall project is by NIST. To use an old cliché, they'll leave no stone unturned.
Jeff: Thanks again for another thorough review of the current investigation and the enhanced materials, like the cell-phone video and more-detailed drawings of the structure. I, for one, will be interesteded in more info on the extra beam in the parking garage that seemed to have been sagging and had some alterations near it. Then there were some other reinforcements down there under the building where they were many signs of structural issues. Maybe, at some point, we will all know what was being done, why and how things didn't help and whether other buildings in the area will be made safer after this.
the enhanced photo of the video at 30:00 before the collapse gave a rough idea of who were possibility awake during the ordeal... gave me the chills... also we can see the living room light for Fiorella's 6th floor unit was on...
I’ve been watching your videos since the beginning. Your videos truly are the best and easiest to understand - it’s helped me personally make sense out of what happened. Thank you for all of these incredibly informative videos!
As a retired firefighter I have appreciated your insight, the animation as well as how well you presentedd the same information we all were getting from this tragic incident.
I think your active collegues also can benefit. You are the ones confronted with all sort of situation where buildings are involved. It's so well explained that everyone can understand the whole dynamic of a building.
Thank you for breaking this down! It's kind of incredible how many tests and data simulations they are able to do! I know everyone wants answers as fast as possible, but something this huge deserves to be done right, and that takes time. It's good to know they're doing everything they possibly can to find the answers, though. What a time to be alive, where we can even expect those kinds of answers. and those answers will then go on to help protect others in the future. The families and friends of the lost deserve answers, more than anyone else. And they deserve to have a complete picture of what happened to their loved ones and why.
Yes they took a lot of unfair negative publicity over the World Trade Center investigation. But the truth is the debris was all removed off of the site by the city of New York long before the national construction Safety Act was voted on by Congress and then nest was brought in to investigate after the fact. This time they actually took a lot of Flack because they took control of the site wouldn't let anybody in or out and we're not letting anybody touch anything.
Excellent video Jeff, Thank you for keeping us updated on this investigation, this was a horrible tragedy and in order to prevent this from happening again this investigation needs to be very thorough.
Fabulous! I've followed you since the beginning, and I wasn't lost at all as to what you were communicating. Well done, thanks for taking the time to review, digest and communicate.
Thanks for all your work on this project. You really make it easy for a lay person to understand. Keep up the good work, I always look forward to your videos of CT.
Jeff's content got me to thinking about how fortunate we are to live in North America for the most part. How many of the construction sites we see are/were buildings that were tore down because they were unsafe? We have so much wealth here that someone or some group will reinvest in the property. Compare that to less wealthy parts of the planet and then factor in earthquakes and other natural disaster. It really gives you chills.
Absolutely fantastic Jeff! You make this all so easy to understand and it is so interesting. I sure hope we get to see those videos from the security cameras at some point! That would definitely give a lot of useful information. Thanks as always for doing these!
Yes getting my hands on any of those other security camera videos is my top desire right now. I'm surprised That the newspapers like The Miami Herald who aggressively go after coverage on this have not mentioned anything about it.
@@jeffostroff NIST said that there is only one video, the one from 87 Park. I find this hard to believe. There might be a gag order, that's why the Miami Herald probably doesn't mention anything (if they even know about it).
Another great, informative video! I wonder how many builders are sweating it out since the collapse. Cutting corners have always been a temptation. Since this horrible tragedy, I bet they'll be more careful to keep things safe.
Jeff, you have done such amazing research on this matter. You ought to collaborate with a top investigative reporter like Sharyl Attkisson on a feature documentary.
Wow. This video is amazing. So in depth n detailed. Ty so much for going thru n explaining everything. Ty for educating us. They r really going all out to determine the exact cause I hoping to better the standards in future.
Thank you drew I'm glad you appreciate this I had been working on this since Wednesday night when we got the Slide presentations in advance of the meeting
It is curious why they won't or don't talk about the security cameras actually on the property... I've seen this before and I'm sure everybody else has too, but I put money that those cameras didn't work anymore. They just left then there is a feel-good measure. In my mind the owners and the board are the blame for this happening and nobody will tell me differently.
Jeff, I love your videos and thorough explanations. I agree that solid stone and even composite stone tiles and worktops are extremely heavy, definitely something that wasn't available at the time of building. It has made me realise that so many changes come in over time that can't possibly have been anticipated when the building design was done. This is a huge can of worms because I'll bet there are thousands of people living in condos that could be in a similar situation. Goodness knows what will result in time. I eally hope you don't have to do this again!
Hey Jeff, we have been saying from the beginning of your very telling investigation videos You Are Right On The Money Each n Everyone One of Your Analysis is Correct. Surprised they didn't get you on board to help Or Did They? Thanks for Teaching All of Us What Really Happened, n How Good You Are at This! Chris and Rick From Chicago ♥️
I would love to talk to Shamoka if you could arrange it, I have a handful of questions to ask her. I this possible? You can message me on my FB page: facebook.com/jostroff
I am not sure if this had been covered but some of the things that could be investigated is all of the people who were involved with the construction of the building including those who worked for the town of Surfside. I believe there was a photo during construction that showed a tower crane which had collapsed at the job site. They could also investigate how things were in Miami back in those days and how that could have affected the construction of the building. Some have said that some of the construction crew were being paid under the table. Additionally back in those days bribes were more common. There is nothing like paying off the city inspectors and the town police. Thank you Jeff for the update.
A building built to older building codes. Probably the build was adjusted to keep it within budget. New owners, the new elected boards, allowing to many renal units, not having a very informed board, cheap owners & lack of structural engineering reports when doing any work or remodels to the units (understanding the maximum weight load for each floor) caused this Condo tower to collapse.
Funny thing is, in 2018 they were warned by the engineer about severity of concrete damage and give $9 million bill, but in denial, and HOA bickering among themselves, 3 years late they finally decide to go through with it, but cost has ballooned up to $16 million
Maybe part of the role of the social science analysis would be to examine the failure of the condo board to initiate needed structural repairs in a timely manner
The big thing about a heavy remodel, it's not so much the dead weight once it's in, remember that while it's being hauled up to the site, it's a live load. Each pallet of that tile is 1t or higher. And with something that heavy, you never treat it gently. 1t of stone dumped onto the lobby floor by the elevator... That's a solid impact shock.
Great job, Jeff! Really appreciate you helping to keep us, the laymen. informed, in terms we understand, some of the analysis and forensic processes now being undertaken by NIST and other invewstigative bodies.
I really like watching your videos. Not only are they informative and educational, but you make it easy to understand by putting it in layman’s terms. I’m really looking forward to your next video. Thanks!
@@BrianClem not too sarcastic! I 😘 it Edit: they need to give all these "graduates" some jobs after promising them the jobs would be there, so here we are 👌
Yes I was actually planning on a video on the FIU bridge collapse and search collapse and hit all my windows in browser is open and everything to begin the video production when the Champlain towers collapsed and I still haven't had time to get around to making me FI you bridge collapse video yet.
Jeff You have done an excellent job explaining the science of building and collapsing of this building perfectly. Your translation of technical to something easily understood is wonderful. I have watched other channels which were too technical. Keep up the great videos. ✌️
Getting downloaded copies of the record copies of the Constuction drawings and looking at the site collapse pictures and video, it was telling very early on how the "slap-it-up" design and construction of the building led to its progressed failure and collapse. The drawings really told the story.
I'm only stopping now to assert that those blue objects in the garage after the deck collapse look very convincingly like the furniture you pointed out.
We will never be told about the strange decision by city hall to allow another floor to be added to the building. That is why city hall is trying to sneak into the settlement by offering $2m without comment, people still alive will know what happened to cause city hall to change their mind and allow another floor to be added. The victims should accept the settlement from all participants EXCEPT city hall. Victims should go after city hall separately, and investigate for any corruption during the 1980s during the planning and permit stage.
Hi - I too have enjoyed the factual descriptions/explanations/speculations from your research. Great I would hesitate in using the term "illegal tiles" 46:49 - typically interior renovations have no oversight by the HOA's such that floor to tile work might have been considered acceptable and actually coveted by owners upgrading their units and would not have been "illegal" just bad judgement with no bldg oversight.
Maybe the camera video was not captured or the system was not working. Not an unusual situation, until something happens. The cameras look pretty but the capture video may not be backed up via the net and the units destroyed in the collapse.
That’s what my thinking is. Perhaps the cameras were providing real time information to whoever was sitting in the office, monitoring the various feeds, but the spending averse Condo Association was unwilling to pay for a storage server or were putting it off. (The costs of which would be higher than merely the hardware costs.) Given all the water damage, maybe the cables connecting to the office were damaged, and repairs put off until after the planned major work was done. Lots to speculate about.
Great video! Man I have to say it, but if it hasn’t been said before, has anyone told you that you sound like Ray Liotta in Good Fellas when he’s narrating the movie. I just keep picturing Liotta is explaining everything in this video 😂
@27:49 I think I see the top of the third column: just to the right of the C in the gate, behind the pile of debris (as it should be if the debris is Sara's patio). The angle of the photo makes it hard to be sure, but it looks to me like the third column is leaning to the right, leading me to suspect that the planter column to it's right (L11?) has failed and M11 is being pulled over.
Great video Jeff. Lots of interesting information presented in a easy to understand way. The enhanced videos will help even more regarding the investigation.
Again another great job Jeff, I agree with you on the added weight from upgrades. Do you forsee or know of any Hoa's that are asking owners to remove any of the heavy upgrades that they have done? Big difference from pressboard/formica counter tops to granite and linoleum flooring to tile. Some buildings have replaced carpets in lobbies and hallways with tile.
They didn’t calibrate 87 parks camera . They used the test pattern to identify the errors in 87 parks camera and then digitally compensated for the error in the video .
Astonishingly comprehensive and accessible, Jeff - many thanks. Looking forward very much to your assessment of the load changes - intuitively, that seems a definite contributing factor.
I think the undersized main beam at the edge of the building was the weak link. It was 12" smaller than originally designed. The patio structure failing damaged it.
I'm not an expert but I can see how Jeff's theory on overweight reno is totally legit. Its amazing that when you go in an tally everything up its amazing what it could possibly add up to.
My dad does remodeling and a few times I've been to work with him and the tiles n everything is very heavy even to him. So heavy they put a small amount in a single box. Then times that by however many tiles n thick granite maybe then multiply that by 55 units. They definitely didn't account for that when building this. It boggles my mind that people seem to think it wouldn't be well over the allowed extra weight
And especially in houses like on the 2nd floor where everything is wood and often times the floor joists are spaced too far apart that it causes flection in the sub floor so they have to sister up the joists with additional 2 by 4 or 2 by 6 boards just stiffen everything up and provide more support so that the sub floor doesn't flex
@@jeffostroff We added a stair to the attic of my parents home. The floor was just wooden beams. We put in a steel beam on which the upper landing of the stairs rested on. The beam went from one outside wall of the row house to the other. And in the middle it got a steel column to support it. I think it was a little overkill. But the house is still standing.
Nice summary. Good to know that NIST is doing a really thorough job. As for the additional tiles and stonework that were added to individual units, NIST has the lot and can weigh it up. My speculation is that the slab rebar at the South wall eventually lost grip allowing the punching shear by the cracked wall at the corner with the planter to pull down the slab which propagated to the columns you suspect at the North side of the pool deck. For want of a nail and all that.
@@jeffostroff As the slab descended down whichever columns, the geometric distance from the South wall would increase. The rebar holding the slab to the South wall would be loaded more and more as the slab came down various columns until it lost grip.
It's likely they contacted the person who shot the video down the ramp after the deck collapsed. If they have the original video file from the phone, they could likely get a lot more clarity out of the video which is what we can see here. The videos we saw were all uploaded to Instagram/RUclips/etc and would have been heavily compressed which removes fine details. With that being the case, they wouldn't have had to do too much manipulation to give a clear image.
I want to know what the deal is with that "mystery" column with the rebar sticking out of the garage floor where no column should be according to the blueprints. Get on that Jeff...lol. Could it have fell from an upper floor during the collapse and punctured the slab? I'd really be interested in finding out the answer to that oddity.
I think an upper column falling and puncturing the slab is the most likely scenario for that. That column definitely wouldn't have been there in the garage as it would have blocked cars in the garage.
I hope they provide more timely updates like this although I suspect it's only going to happen every 6 months that's historically what I see and then do at NIST
This was great Jeff. The final report takes years to develop and will cover all the stuff that you talk about. I would note one added thing that you see on multiple shots of the evidence warehouse. Lots of the rebar has red caps on the ends. This is to preserve the surface where it fractured. The old rule we used in machine failure analysis was to never touch the ends of metal fractures. They use lots of different technologies to look for corrosion or metallurgical crystal analysis to see if the material was up to snuff. I would think that this is part of the failure analyses for the rebar
I am the occupational safety person for a plumbing company, and 81 is actually a little iffy for asbestos. Most contractors stopped using it by the early 80s, but the most substantial ban wasn't implemented until 89... and that ban was overturned OF COURSE lol It's not super common to see overt asbestos in structures from the late 70s/early 80s. But we still evaluate for it in homes from that era. It's not as concerning as all those lovely mid-century buildings, though.
FWIW, I can not go into an underground building, parking garage, or whatever without feeling a little apprehensive, and observant. The engineering and calculations of requirements, building design, strength of materials, connection of all the various phases that all together provide the completed building. You never consider this stuff until a catastrophic failure.
Yes this is 1 silver lining out of this whole disaster is now people are being more observant and hopefully proactive and we will no longer walk by potentially dangerous cracks in concrete with our heads down not even noticing it and perhaps more lives will be saved in the future when somebody reports damage and it gets fixed
Those other videos would not show anybody being been injured and we've all seen videos of falling buildings before I don't see how that could be too graphic,
Incredibly, one of your best videos yet, Jeff. Just incredible. I had no idea that NCST would do so many tests and that NCST used so many techniques to test for stability, loss of strength, and complete failure. Just amazing. If I would've looked through all of this.....I would've never understood any of it. Thank you Jeff, this was a very long video, but I stayed with you til the end. I can't wait to see the finished product of the NCST investigation. And ironically NCST will investigate the remodeling of each condo......validation of your investigations of causes.
Thanks for staying through to the end these slide presentations were from at least a 1/2 a dozen different presentations that lasted all day long. So I took hours worth of Information and filter it down to under an hour.
It's NIST National Insitute of Standards and Technology?
@@dennissalisbury496 thanks Dennis, I tried to edit out my C's and replace them with I's, but because Jeff pinned it....RUclips won't let me fix it. Thank you for pointing it out to me. No one wants to spell something wrong....so thank you kindly.
NIST.....got it
@@dennissalisbury496 Yes that is the same NIST
God bless you Jeff, you've gone above and beyond with the CTS collapse. No one has come close to you with the information and breakdown of events/floorplans/timelines. You've given us all an understanding and hopefully some peace to the souls lost in the collapse.
Thank you so much for that I appreciate it
@@jeffostroff you're most welcome. Keep up the amazing work. If anything you're saving lives by helping us identify some things we'd never truly know about without your videos 🙏
Agreed
It blows my mind how such a building collapse in modern times. I’ve watched every one of your videos on the Champlain towers collapse and I want to compliment you on the awesome job you’re doing. Keep up the great work! You make it easy for the layman to understand, and do a great job explaining the technical aspects and important details. I’ll be interested to see how close NIST is to your hypothesis!!
Thanks John I was going to hold my breath but knowing that this could take nist until 2024 I might have to wait lol.
I'm not. anotehr channel I watch is a pair of guys that check out abandoned places. they can go into a place abandoned for decades and built long ago and while some are total losses many are structurely sound and with some work can be used again. then you have buildings made 20 years ago and they are fallign apart without regualr mataince. heck when this condo collapsed they were checkign out another condo that is 15 years old and is already having major structal issues. thankfully that board is on it.
Can you imagine living in NYC on billionaire’s row in these ultra high and tall skyscrapers. I watched a documentary on the problems these buildings are all ready having, which are only a few years old. It is unthinkable what the outcome would be if this happened to one of those buildings. It is so glamorous to think of living like that, but now I am glad I live on the ground, lol.
@@Sassy4u2u it's worse in China. they have buildings that were built 3 years ago. never actually used and already have severe cracks in the walls.
If you only knew the shoddy work commonly done.
I could listen to your voice convey this information for hours on end. Please do more of these . I do not have an engineering or construction background, but you explain everything in lay terms so that regular people (i.e. potential condo buyers and current owners) can truly understand. Your explanations are not only fascinating but also help calm many of your viewers anxieties with empowering information. Thank you, thank you.
And you are most welcome thank you for watching
You are very correct. The remodels in the apartments add up substantially! Tile, mastic, mortar, marble slabs, non-builder grade cabinets, quartz and marble countertops all add tremendous weight. My daughter wanted to put in a soaker tub in her second story bath area - 100 lb acrylic tub BUT 260 lbs of water and a person!! What great updates - I admit some of it is bla bla bla but very informative and appreciated!
Thanks mark yes this was a very difficult video to get it down in size because I had to basically take between 6 and 830 minute presentations that were given over an entire day and contents it down my original goal for this was to not exceed 30 minutes lol
@@jeffostroff loved it. Not too long. Great info.👍
@@jeffostroff oh wow, that's a lot of work. I second that opinion, this video was not too long. I didn't even realize it was almost an hour, you tied it together very well.
In my HOA of townhomes, the rules state no soaker tubs. Now I understand why.
I agree that all the marble tile, cabinets, countertops, etc added additional weight....but how would this make the pool deck collapse (which appears to have failed first)??
This must be the most pain-stakingly analyzed building collapse ever. It amazing, and very interesting, to see what this investigation entails. Thanks for this very complete overview - your hard work and knowledge base shows!
I am getting crazy wailing for their testing to be done
Excellent, comprehensive, easy for the layman to understand. I pay attention now to new surroundings. I was at an exclusive hunting hotel and noticed such repairs/damage to underground garage roofs. Your reporting may actually save lives.
I have no idea whether this is possible, but it would be cool if Jeff could do a spreadsheet estimating how many pounds were added to the apartment with the marble and glass etc. renovations. A bit of research into records to get an estimate of how many units were remodeled, and a summary guess to compare to what the $22,000,000 dollar budget people come up with. It isn't trivial over-kill at all. There have been notable structural failures caused by nothing more than too many people at one time, and airlines revised their number for "average human weight of passengers" to account for, well ... more weight than average ... the take-off weight of an airplane is critical.
I was talking to a doctor his wife last year who said they saw some of my earlier videos on the collapse in lapse and while shopping for a new office they passed up one particular place because of garage damage
Very much appreciate the update Jeff! You and Josh both have a gift for making complicated things easy to understand.
Thanks Terry I'm glad you liked it
Your videos about this have been some of my favorite videos of any kind on RUclips over the passed year.
Thank you so much Brian
It is fascinating to see why this is taking so long, I would have never guessed they would do all of these details.
What I think is kind of ironic, you and Building Integrity had a lot of the answers from the very beginning. I know it can't stop there but I am so thankful for all of the hard work you two have put in to help us all learn. I also imagine your videos have help the people who lost everything put the pieces of the puzzle together since it's going to take years for an official answer.
Yes I hope to continue helping with the theories on the collapse
Hi Jeff, from Sydney, Australia. I've watched every one of your impressive Champlain Towers collapse videos. I'm 66yrs old & have seen the damage caused through excessive weight loads on 2 heritage buildings. In the first example in 1989 there was a structural collapse of the 2 uppermost floors in a 4 storey building , several people were trapped for several days. The second building also belonging to the retail group I worked for for over 30 years. My Grandad an engineer, and nana's brother, his best friend were both engineers one a Architect and engineer & my Pa an industrial engineer and metallurgist. The 3 of us were supposed to be having lunch together. However they had come old school early they were looking around at the building to kill time whilst I was busy . These 2 guys lived and breathed engineering, life long friends when they went to school together as 5 year olds and lived to their late 90's. What they found was the beginning of structural failure , caused by having TOO MUCH weight up high in a old 9 storey retail building which had also been assisted by near 100 years of vibrations from a vast gas powered Robert Carrier early air conditioning unit. Within 2 weeks of their findings , we were out of the building , several weeks after that part of the rear top floor of the building gave way , then the building was carefully pulled down. Problem was upper now non retail floors being used as vast stock storage facility in an old building that was clearly not built to be used effectively as a warehouse. We sold books & stationery both massively heavy dead weights like boxes of ceramic tiles and massive sheets of marble slab. Put 10 cartons of books in a station wagon and see what happens to its suspension.. HOWEVER that story aside , I am really shocked at the massive use of re-bar in a multi level building . our Aussie building codes seem way different , as my aforementioned great uncle built multi level apartments around Sydney in the 50's 60's & 70's. I remember looking at each & every one of them , however we here in Sydney use massive steel I bars for the verticals and the cross bars & then covered in cement I was kind of shocked to see the USA style construction. From a magazine 60 years ago when in Sydney we were building what was then the tallest building in the southern hemisphere , the Sydney Square Tower 50 floors high , with tall ceilings , so a tall 50 floors . It is round, a complete giant circle , on the top it has the revolving restaurant. What it was compared to was the proposed at the time New York world trade centre building designs, From time life magazines it was very informative as it stated that the amount of reinforced steel going into just the ONE Sydney building was well over what was going into the TWO main New York trade centre tower buildings. That by comparison the Sydney building was being built to vault/fortress strengths that it had the same overkill structural integrity like the Sydney Harbour Bridge . This same build it just once and to a design requiring minimum maintenance is exactly how Sydney CBD's triple level underground railway was built a100 yrs ago. Many of the buildings in the city's core were demolished the streets all straightened to be 90degree intersections , zero bends. Then massive excavations into the granite and sandstone were carried out and the whole below ground railway network was built in massive steel I bars made to purpose. drainage was also thought of carefully as well to zero out rust issues. "Underground" work was completed beneath the major streets and was then "lidded" in concrete and steel. They did not tunnel one inch , it was a complete manmade construction from the top down and usual Aussie style massive overkill giving mega strength and to the usual maxim of do it/build it just once to last indefinitely.
The method is called a 2 way slab.
Over the top, clear, accurate, concise, thorough commentary. Don’t you dare stop your coverage. I view every single episode!!
Thanks Jack glad elected
Wow Jeff, you've really outdone yourself with this one. Seeing screenshots of the footage in high resolution was a real treat. So much detail. Thank you for your hard work and for regularly keeping us informed. Know that we appreciate it very much.
Yes, that was awesome that they released those photos!
Jeff, there's new ring camera footage from within the building seconds before the collapse. Did you see it?
@@lookforitcx Link???
Terrific video Jeff, thank you. It's mind-boggling as to how incredibly comprehensive this overall project is by NIST. To use an old cliché, they'll leave no stone unturned.
Jeff: Thanks again for another thorough review of the current investigation and the enhanced materials, like the cell-phone video and more-detailed drawings of the structure.
I, for one, will be interesteded in more info on the extra beam in the parking garage that seemed to have been sagging and had some alterations near it. Then there were some other reinforcements down there under the building where they were many signs of structural issues.
Maybe, at some point, we will all know what was being done, why and how things didn't help and whether other buildings in the area will be made safer after this.
Yes I hope this makes other condo associations well associations wake up and always know the condition of their buildings
Thanks Jeff for breaking down the NIST investigation into terms that we without engineering degrees can understand.
Yes a lot of times those engineering terms can be quite confusing glad to be able to clear it up for you
the enhanced photo of the video at 30:00 before the collapse gave a rough idea of who were possibility awake during the ordeal... gave me the chills... also we can see the living room light for Fiorella's 6th floor unit was on...
That is very true! They actually need to obtain that security video from the entire day before the event!
Yes it was very eerie I would really love to see some security camera footage from around the actual condo building
I’ve been watching your videos since the beginning. Your videos truly are the best and easiest to understand - it’s helped me personally make sense out of what happened. Thank you for all of these incredibly informative videos!
Awesome I'm glad you like the video of some things for coming back from one
Jeff, I have zero knowledge about engineering, but I find your channel fascinating. So interesting, and I have learned so much! Keep it up.
Thank you I plan to see this one all the way to the end
As a retired firefighter I have appreciated your insight, the animation as well as how well you presentedd the same information we all were getting from this tragic incident.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
I think your active collegues also can benefit.
You are the ones confronted with all sort of situation where buildings are involved.
It's so well explained that everyone can understand the whole dynamic of a building.
You have done an impeccable job analyzing this incident.
Thank you! I’m not an engineer, but every bit of this was fascinating and clear.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
I’ve been following you since the beginning
This is going to be interesting
Thank you!
Thanks for sticking it out this far lone wolf
Thank you for breaking this down! It's kind of incredible how many tests and data simulations they are able to do! I know everyone wants answers as fast as possible, but something this huge deserves to be done right, and that takes time. It's good to know they're doing everything they possibly can to find the answers, though. What a time to be alive, where we can even expect those kinds of answers. and those answers will then go on to help protect others in the future. The families and friends of the lost deserve answers, more than anyone else. And they deserve to have a complete picture of what happened to their loved ones and why.
Yes they took a lot of unfair negative publicity over the World Trade Center investigation. But the truth is the debris was all removed off of the site by the city of New York long before the national construction Safety Act was voted on by Congress and then nest was brought in to investigate after the fact. This time they actually took a lot of Flack because they took control of the site wouldn't let anybody in or out and we're not letting anybody touch anything.
Keep them coming. From the UK we don't hear anything about this anymore . I hope that at the end the photo and video material will be available .
Yes I would love to be able to get at the repository of data that is collecting.
Best analysis on RUclips! 100%!
💯
Thank you for you great info Jeff
Thanks for watching Pia! Glad to help!
Jeff! Thank You for everyone of your videos and all your updates! Amazing work!!
I am happy to be able to make all of these videos for everybody
Thank you for this very important update Jeff! Keepum coming. -Bob...
We'll keep them coming thanks for watching Bob
Awesome long form presentation, Jeff. You are clearly the expert, I dont go anywhere else for this.
Thanks glad to be your source of Quality updates
Another wonderful video update! I look forward to any future video updates of the investigation 😊
Excellent video Jeff, Thank you for keeping us updated on this investigation, this was a horrible tragedy and in order to prevent this from happening again this investigation needs to be very thorough.
Yes, one of my major motivating factors
Thanks for breaking this down so I, we can understand all of the different tasks and testing.
Glad it was helpful Tricia!
Very impressed with your entire view of these events. Well done analysis!
Thank you Matty!
Fabulous! I've followed you since the beginning, and I wasn't lost at all as to what you were communicating. Well done, thanks for taking the time to review, digest and communicate.
Wow, thank you!
Thanks for all your work on this project. You really make it easy for a lay person to understand. Keep up the good work, I always look forward to your videos of CT.
Thank you very much Marlene!
Jeff's content got me to thinking about how fortunate we are to live in North America for the most part. How many of the construction sites we see are/were buildings that were tore down because they were unsafe? We have so much wealth here that someone or some group will reinvest in the property. Compare that to less wealthy parts of the planet and then factor in earthquakes and other natural disaster. It really gives you chills.
very good vidoes on the tower collapse! way more informative than anything else online
Thanks so much I'm glad you liked it
Absolutely fantastic Jeff! You make this all so easy to understand and it is so interesting. I sure hope we get to see those videos from the security cameras at some point! That would definitely give a lot of useful information. Thanks as always for doing these!
Yes getting my hands on any of those other security camera videos is my top desire right now. I'm surprised That the newspapers like The Miami Herald who aggressively go after coverage on this have not mentioned anything about it.
@@jeffostroff NIST said that there is only one video, the one from 87 Park. I find this hard to believe. There might be a gag order, that's why the Miami Herald probably doesn't mention anything (if they even know about it).
Another great, informative video! I wonder how many builders are sweating it out since the collapse. Cutting corners have always been a temptation. Since this horrible tragedy, I bet they'll be more careful to keep things safe.
I hope this causes more people to wake up and start to do things right
Jeff, you have done such amazing research on this matter. You ought to collaborate with a top investigative reporter like Sharyl Attkisson on a feature documentary.
Well thanks I certainly would not turn down A request from a well known reporter
@@jeffostroff Or, THE DAILY WIRE which is now doing creative productions.
Fantastic down-to-earth analysis, thanks and Regards from England, UK.
Thanks Robert, lots of UK people still interested
Wow. This video is amazing. So in depth n detailed. Ty so much for going thru n explaining everything. Ty for educating us.
They r really going all out to determine the exact cause I hoping to better the standards in future.
Fascinating. Thank you!
Wow. So many things to analyze. Thanks Jeff for all you hard work and thinning the weeds. It's fascinating.
Thinning the weeds is my specialty lol thanks so much and I'm glad you liked the videos
Lots and lots of info, thank you for taking us through it all.
Thank you drew I'm glad you appreciate this I had been working on this since Wednesday night when we got the Slide presentations in advance of the meeting
It is curious why they won't or don't talk about the security cameras actually on the property... I've seen this before and I'm sure everybody else has too, but I put money that those cameras didn't work anymore. They just left then there is a feel-good measure. In my mind the owners and the board are the blame for this happening and nobody will tell me differently.
I hope someone produces those videos soon I think they have them
@@jeffostroff I agree wholeheartedly. They sure would tell a story wouldn't they.
Great update. I always like seeing every detail of the situation.
This is one of your best ! Wowsers… Thank you so much Jeff
Glad you enjoyed it
Very good and thorough explanation of everything going on. NIST is doing an incredible job of investigating this.
Thank you so much William I'm glad you liked the video
Jeff, I love your videos and thorough explanations. I agree that solid stone and even composite stone tiles and worktops are extremely heavy, definitely something that wasn't available at the time of building. It has made me realise that so many changes come in over time that can't possibly have been anticipated when the building design was done. This is a huge can of worms because I'll bet there are thousands of people living in condos that could be in a similar situation. Goodness knows what will result in time. I eally hope you don't have to do this again!
Yes it is something for people to think about!
Hey Jeff, we have been saying from the beginning of your very telling investigation videos You Are Right On The Money Each n Everyone One of Your Analysis is Correct. Surprised they didn't get you on board to help Or Did They? Thanks for Teaching All of Us What Really Happened, n How Good You Are at This! Chris and Rick From Chicago ♥️
RIP to everyone that DIED
My friend shamoka was the security guard there that survived in the building collapse
I would love to talk to Shamoka if you could arrange it, I have a handful of questions to ask her. I this possible? You can message me on my FB page: facebook.com/jostroff
Hello 👋 friend. Thank you for the investigation update . Good information nice work 👍👍👍🙌
Fascinating stuff! Many thanks Jeff!
I am not sure if this had been covered but some of the things that could be investigated is all of the people who were involved with the construction of the building including those who worked for the town of Surfside. I believe there was a photo during construction that showed a tower crane which had collapsed at the job site. They could also investigate how things were in Miami back in those days and how that could have affected the construction of the building. Some have said that some of the construction crew were being paid under the table. Additionally back in those days bribes were more common. There is nothing like paying off the city inspectors and the town police. Thank you Jeff for the update.
Yes that will be covered under the social sciences project par of the investigation
A building built to older building codes. Probably the build was adjusted to keep it within budget. New owners, the new elected boards, allowing to many renal units, not having a very informed board, cheap owners & lack of structural engineering reports when doing any work or remodels to the units (understanding the maximum weight load for each floor) caused this Condo tower to collapse.
Funny thing is, in 2018 they were warned by the engineer about severity of concrete damage and give $9 million bill, but in denial, and HOA bickering among themselves, 3 years late they finally decide to go through with it, but cost has ballooned up to $16 million
Maybe part of the role of the social science analysis would be to examine the failure of the condo board to initiate needed structural repairs in a timely manner
The big thing about a heavy remodel, it's not so much the dead weight once it's in, remember that while it's being hauled up to the site, it's a live load. Each pallet of that tile is 1t or higher. And with something that heavy, you never treat it gently. 1t of stone dumped onto the lobby floor by the elevator... That's a solid impact shock.
Plus they stack it up in one small place
Great job, Jeff! Really appreciate you helping to keep us, the laymen. informed, in terms we understand, some of the analysis and forensic processes now being undertaken by NIST and other invewstigative bodies.
I really like watching your videos. Not only are they informative and educational, but you make it easy to understand by putting it in layman’s terms. I’m really looking forward to your next video. Thanks!
I appreciate that!
Incredible update. I hope we are able to take this journey as you breakdown NIST milestones when they come available!
I hope so!
It's great to add FIU on board. They have a history of dealing with things that collapse.... Like bridges.
Was that too sarcastic? Anyway, keep up the good work, Jeff!
Agreed lol
@@BrianClem not too sarcastic! I 😘 it
Edit: they need to give all these "graduates" some jobs after promising them the jobs would be there, so here we are 👌
Yes I was actually planning on a video on the FIU bridge collapse and search collapse and hit all my windows in browser is open and everything to begin the video production when the Champlain towers collapsed and I still haven't had time to get around to making me FI you bridge collapse video yet.
Jeff You have done an excellent job explaining the science of building and collapsing of this building perfectly. Your translation of technical to something easily understood is wonderful. I have watched other channels which were too technical. Keep up the great videos. ✌️
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks again Jeff!! Very interesting and thorough presentation for us!! You do an excellent job of presenting this material.
Getting downloaded copies of the record copies of the Constuction drawings and looking at the site collapse pictures and video, it was telling very early on how the "slap-it-up" design and construction of the building led to its progressed failure and collapse. The drawings really told the story.
I'm only stopping now to assert that those blue objects in the garage after the deck collapse look very convincingly like the furniture you pointed out.
We will never be told about the strange decision by city hall to allow another floor to be added to the building. That is why city hall is trying to sneak into the settlement by offering $2m without comment, people still alive will know what happened to cause city hall to change their mind and allow another floor to be added. The victims should accept the settlement from all participants EXCEPT city hall. Victims should go after city hall separately, and investigate for any corruption during the 1980s during the planning and permit stage.
"any corruption during the 1980s" --- HA HA HA HA Shirley - You Jest....
As they say Jeff, leave no stone unturned. Awesome presentation. Look forward to the next update.
Thanks Charlie!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience
Hi - I too have enjoyed the factual descriptions/explanations/speculations from your research. Great I would hesitate in using the term "illegal tiles" 46:49 - typically interior renovations have no oversight by the HOA's such that floor to tile work might have been considered acceptable and actually coveted by owners upgrading their units and would not have been "illegal" just bad judgement with no bldg oversight.
Maybe the camera video was not captured or the system was not working. Not an unusual situation, until something happens. The cameras look pretty but the capture video may not be backed up via the net and the units destroyed in the collapse.
Man, I hope that was not the case here Franklin!
That’s what my thinking is. Perhaps the cameras were providing real time information to whoever was sitting in the office, monitoring the various feeds, but the spending averse Condo Association was unwilling to pay for a storage server or were putting it off. (The costs of which would be higher than merely the hardware costs.) Given all the water damage, maybe the cables connecting to the office were damaged, and repairs put off until after the planned major work was done. Lots to speculate about.
Great video! Man I have to say it, but if it hasn’t been said before, has anyone told you that you sound like Ray Liotta in Good Fellas when he’s narrating the movie. I just keep picturing Liotta is explaining everything in this video 😂
He's a good fella! I have a lot of people saying I sound like Charlie Sheen
Great information Jeff, Thank you!
You are welcome!
@27:49 I think I see the top of the third column: just to the right of the C in the gate, behind the pile of debris (as it should be if the debris is Sara's patio). The angle of the photo makes it hard to be sure, but it looks to me like the third column is leaning to the right, leading me to suspect that the planter column to it's right (L11?) has failed and M11 is being pulled over.
tough call, I would kill to have a closeup photo from a security camera in there
Great video Jeff. Lots of interesting information presented in a easy to understand way. The enhanced videos will help even more regarding the investigation.
I would love to get my hands on those original and hands to videos as well as any other Security camera videos from The condo collapse site
Again another great job Jeff, I agree with you on the added weight from upgrades. Do you forsee or know of any Hoa's that are asking owners to remove any of the heavy upgrades that they have done? Big difference from pressboard/formica counter tops to granite and linoleum flooring to tile. Some buildings have replaced carpets in lobbies and hallways with tile.
They didn’t calibrate 87 parks camera . They used the test pattern to identify the errors in 87 parks camera and then digitally compensated for the error in the video .
That is a calibration test…
It doesn’t mean you adjust the camera, it means you adjust FOR the camera distortion.
Astonishingly comprehensive and accessible, Jeff - many thanks. Looking forward very much to your assessment of the load changes - intuitively, that seems a definite contributing factor.
Thanks, glad to help Hopeful Traveller!
So interesting. Great breakdown on how this is being investigated.
Yes you can see the incredible amount of work these engineers have to do to track and tag and catalog everything
I think the undersized main beam at the edge of the building was the weak link.
It was 12" smaller than originally designed.
The patio structure failing damaged it.
I don't think that beam changed at all during the design process
@@jeffostroff if you look at the original plans the beam was supposed to be 2 ft 6 before they raised up the patio decking level 12".
These video analyses are so good NIST should call you to testify!
I would love to help out on that one
I'm not an expert but I can see how Jeff's theory on overweight reno is totally legit. Its amazing that when you go in an tally everything up its amazing what it could possibly add up to.
My dad does remodeling and a few times I've been to work with him and the tiles n everything is very heavy even to him. So heavy they put a small amount in a single box. Then times that by however many tiles n thick granite maybe then multiply that by 55 units. They definitely didn't account for that when building this. It boggles my mind that people seem to think it wouldn't be well over the allowed extra weight
And especially in houses like on the 2nd floor where everything is wood and often times the floor joists are spaced too far apart that it causes flection in the sub floor so they have to sister up the joists with additional 2 by 4 or 2 by 6 boards just stiffen everything up and provide more support so that the sub floor doesn't flex
@@jeffostroff We added a stair to the attic of my parents home. The floor was just wooden beams. We put in a steel beam on which the upper landing of the stairs rested on. The beam went from one outside wall of the row house to the other. And in the middle it got a steel column to support it. I think it was a little overkill. But the house is still standing.
Great video. I was thinking about NIST yesterday.
Great job Jeff
Thank you Michelle
Great video Jeff and great analysis
Thanks so much Shawn I'm glad you liked it
Nice summary. Good to know that NIST is doing a really thorough job.
As for the additional tiles and stonework that were added to individual units, NIST has the lot and can weigh it up.
My speculation is that the slab rebar at the South wall eventually lost grip allowing the punching shear by the cracked wall at the corner with the planter to pull down the slab which propagated to the columns you suspect at the North side of the pool deck.
For want of a nail and all that.
I still think something pulled that slab off the south wall
@@jeffostroff As the slab descended down whichever columns, the geometric distance from the South wall would increase. The rebar holding the slab to the South wall would be loaded more and more as the slab came down various columns until it lost grip.
Truly a good video you have put together. I for one can’t wait for the final analyzation of all the reported information to be presented.
3 years will blow by in no time
It's likely they contacted the person who shot the video down the ramp after the deck collapsed. If they have the original video file from the phone, they could likely get a lot more clarity out of the video which is what we can see here. The videos we saw were all uploaded to Instagram/RUclips/etc and would have been heavily compressed which removes fine details. With that being the case, they wouldn't have had to do too much manipulation to give a clear image.
I hate compression! RUclips kills the quality of my livestreams with horrible compression
I want to know what the deal is with that "mystery" column with the rebar sticking out of the garage floor where no column should be according to the blueprints. Get on that Jeff...lol. Could it have fell from an upper floor during the collapse and punctured the slab? I'd really be interested in finding out the answer to that oddity.
I think an upper column falling and puncturing the slab is the most likely scenario for that. That column definitely wouldn't have been there in the garage as it would have blocked cars in the garage.
Jeff discusses that column in a previous video.
I love the forensics of this
I find your quest very insightful. Ty
My dad worked at NIST back when it was NBS
Back in the day!
Another great informative video, it helps us understand why this type of investigation takes so long.
I hope they provide more timely updates like this although I suspect it's only going to happen every 6 months that's historically what I see and then do at NIST
good morning from Hawaii, excellent program, Thank you.
Hawaii ❤...my Bucket List place to go.
This was great Jeff. The final report takes years to develop and will cover all the stuff that you talk about. I would note one added thing that you see on multiple shots of the evidence warehouse. Lots of the rebar has red caps on the ends. This is to preserve the surface where it fractured. The old rule we used in machine failure analysis was to never touch the ends of metal fractures. They use lots of different technologies to look for corrosion or metallurgical crystal analysis to see if the material was up to snuff. I would think that this is part of the failure analyses for the rebar
I am the occupational safety person for a plumbing company, and 81 is actually a little iffy for asbestos. Most contractors stopped using it by the early 80s, but the most substantial ban wasn't implemented until 89... and that ban was overturned OF COURSE lol
It's not super common to see overt asbestos in structures from the late 70s/early 80s. But we still evaluate for it in homes from that era. It's not as concerning as all those lovely mid-century buildings, though.
FWIW, I can not go into an underground building, parking garage, or whatever without feeling a little apprehensive, and observant. The engineering and calculations of requirements, building design, strength of materials, connection of all the various phases that all together provide the completed building. You never consider this stuff until a catastrophic failure.
I now find myself checking out the tops of columns for the presence or absence of caps. And for any water pooling at their bases.
Yes this is 1 silver lining out of this whole disaster is now people are being more observant and hopefully proactive and we will no longer walk by potentially dangerous cracks in concrete with our heads down not even noticing it and perhaps more lives will be saved in the future when somebody reports damage and it gets fixed
Fascinating! Thank you, Jeff.
Glad you enjoyed it
Excellent! Thnx you give plenty of info, clearly and fully explained
Really well done 🏆
The only reason I can think of as to why they won’t release more footage (we ALL know there surely is more)- is that it’s too graphic for the public.
Those other videos would not show anybody being been injured and we've all seen videos of falling buildings before I don't see how that could be too graphic,