This is even more useful if watched together with your Jan 15 video on pros vs ams shallowing and your Jan 22 video on 4 steps to fast hand speed. If I have correctly understood, it seems very important to bring the trail elbow and upper arm back down into contact with the chest while your shoulders are still partly closed rather than making that downward movement by yanking the trail shoulder down. Those movements you show in those videos maintain the correct shoulder tilt you demonstrate here. Thanks for all three!!
Hi guys I'm from Australia and enjoy your channel. Grateful for the time and effort you put into helping us weekend golfers. With so much great content, i find it hard to find a video I watched in the past showing what you are looking for at a particular point in the swing. I would like to suggest a video/videos that summarises the things you like to see in a swing from start to finish. Again thank you for your videos.
Love your videos and teaching styles. Have you done a video on the angle between the shaft and arms (not shaft lean) at impact or distance of hands from body (trunk/thighs) at impact?
Another eye-opening AMG video. I have been tilting my trail shoulder down immediately starting downswing my entire life. Maintaining shoulder plane throughout the swing helps everything feel far less contorted, much more natural.
Really like the approach you take. A lot of issues with instruction where they teach their own feel as fact rather than what the body is actually doing. Love it 😀
Great video. In conjunction with this, in one of your videos on re-centering, you mentioned using the feel of throwing a ball to the ground. With a golf ball ball in standard ball position, where should we throw the ball (at the ball on the ground, forward of it, etc.) in order to have an optimal downswing plane of the shoulders and the club? Thank you very much.
Absolutely the best information in the game! I am totally the guy that shallows with the body. Been putting in the work to eliminate the shoulder tilt and just lower the arms to shallow the club. Thank you for all of your help! Now that the brain knows I can retrain my body.
Great video! the set up example is with an iron. Question: When you set up with a driver, that side bend exaggerates the right shoulder being lower than the left. How does the driver set up influence how the shoulders turn back and through? I feel like I'm working away from the ball if it try to rotate around my spine and have the left shoulder lower then the right at the top of the backswing. I've always struggled with this concept.
Hi, I'm relatively new to golf, only been playing just over a year, I struggle with an over-the-top swing the question I have is have you ever taught a right-handed player who grips the club left hand below right? And would my grip be the cause of my swing? Thank you and enjoy the videos
Great video! My big miss is hitting behind the ball. Comparing videos where I hit cleanly and hit behind showed greater shoulder tilt when I hit behind. Any drills to help shoulder position at impact?
Thanks for clarifying key points. I hear advice from other instructors saying “hit the ball with a low right shoulder” through the ball. Put me off my game months, and shoulder tilt was way too steep through impact. Plus, didn’t feel natural.
Real instruction, the best I know of anyways, right here on this chanel. Of course the best would be to get paid for lessons at AMC! I'm guilty as charged for so many "wrong" ideas, like trying to point that right shoulder at the ball at impact,, years ago not recently, or swallowing the club with body tilt trying to hit from waaay inside, lol! Add in holding lag and numerous other dumb things....how did I ever enjoy this game!! Thanx guys!,,
@AthleticMotionGolf if you have spine tilt at address, maintain it in the backswing, wouldn’t that player tend to have less shoulder tilt at say p6 in the downswing? Compared to an am who reverse pivots and then tilts late (lot of tilt at p6)?
My goodness first video I’ve found that actually describes this. So many times I was doing what other RUclipsrs were saying getting that right shoulder down and my swing got worse over 3 months.
Just to reiterate something, in your Pros vs AMS left shoulder movement, in good players the left shoulder moves down in transition, correct, while the Amateurs left shoulder tends to pop up, correct?
Good explanation. It would be good to see one of you swing to demonstrate the swing. You are showing static positions. How you get when you are actually swing would be very useful.
Your channel is my go to channel for golf, thanks for the content. I historically have a problem coming over the top I have regular lessons with a PGA pro. I have a spinal fusion (only my bottom 2 vertebrae work) and have a big problem with side tilt and keeping my shoulder line closed on the downswing. My instructor explained that my shoulder line should be closed, or at a minimum, square at impact if I want to stop from coming over the top. You mentioned "square to slightly open" on your video and then say about "25 degrees open". Can you please explain if the closed is feel and the 25 degrees is real? Or if keeping square at impact really is the soluteion to stop from coming over the top and I just need to figure out how to make it happen. With my back issues it is really difficult to keep square unless I am standing very tall. Thanks for the vids and any input!
I've had the "pleasure" of having spinal fusion as well, so I feel your pain 😅 The shoulders are slightly open to square at impact which makes them well closed mid way down as your pro suggested. The chest is more open at impact however (~25 deg). The chest/ribcage and shoulders do not have the same amount of rotation at impact. Hope that helps!
@@AthleticMotionGolf It does! I will just keep working on flexibility exercises etc. I wish there were some videos related to the swing for people with spinal fusions. haha 90% of my back is fused so there is not much twising going on, but I am going to get the golf swing down no matter what it takes. I look forward to your next video!
I understand this was a shoulder plane video. Wouldn't the actual shoulder plane point a bit closer to ball from hip tilt. Left hip lower than right at top (for righty). Or am I misunderstanding "Shoulders TURN/hips tilt"? Thx 🙂
Thanks for the video. Ive seen many other youtube video about left side bent in backswing and right side bent in downswing. From this video it does not look like you are recommending any side bent. Is this true? Rgrds
You guys are great as always. The one thing I and many wish is being more clear in this (or any lesson) if a lesson is just for irons or driver or both. I’m sure you cover that but it’s important to constantly explain for which clubs this is for and briefly touch in how it may change or not apply for other clubs and why. And where they can go learn what we concept for other clubs if it’s different. U guys rock thou.
@@AthleticMotionGolf sure am ! I'm finding it very difficult to combine: tlting away from the ball (at address), while bending over enough to give me a reasonable amount of shoulder plane angle. (i've had two TPI screenings and no limitations on flexibility. Too much tilt feels difficult to maintain throughout the swing, much too steep on the ball and prone to going out and cutting across the ball... Fairly flat shoulder plane feels easy, powerful... I don't know any pros that have flat shoulder planes so .... I'm trying to see what the max comfortable amount is ... And see if that is within range of the pros.... Does that make sense? Thanks for replying!
@@huddwah 1. What's the reasoning behind trying to swing on one plane? 2. Here's a good range for shoulder plane ruclips.net/video/ai-xkLPX8Cs/видео.htmlsi=ETFh-qxfDSxQnZcx&t=230
@@AthleticMotionGolf exactly the conversation I needed to hear!!! Man that's so helpful and I'm amazed you have it there already. Brilliant! AND you took the time to reply... Legends ! Thank you !!!! 🙏 P.s. I'm trying one plane out to see if it's easier and more consistent. Mainly with Driver. So far I feel like it's much much simpler, easier and more intuitive than shallowing etc. The first time I tried it , with a "swinging a pail of water" feel, power was effortless and plane was much easier to control. Also I feel like I could do it all day long because my back feels more comfortable... (Maybe due to not having to fight insufficient shallowing /OTT)
Can say I love the content you guys make on how the golf swing is ACTUALLY working and not all these guys trying to get people to bend or tilt in all crazy ways to get the shoulders down through impact and it just looks silly unless you work in the circus or something very a George G style of teaching “let the body rotation square the face” I’ve never understood it
Great stuff, as usual. My underrstanding from a recent article I read was that Hogan was 15-17 degrees with shoulders open at address but that's not my question here. My question is what do you think of OTT/OTTFI - Over the Top/ Over the Top from Inside that is now popular and recommended by certain instructors on YT. They point to a lot of top players who did this in the past and players doing it now. Now labeled as "the best way to smash the ball." Can you comment and/or do a video on this topic? Thanks.
Hogan was never on 3D unfortunately. His numbers have been guessed at for decades. There's currently not a system that can accurately measure things from a video. I know OTT has been around a long time lol. We've been around the block long enough to know that most bad ideas in golf come from cherry picked camera angles of pics or videos. Cameras can be positioned to make just about any swing have a certain "look." We haven't had anyone come see us who've said they were working on OTTFI, so I don't know how much value it would be to comment on something we really haven't seen first hand.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Hi, guys. The reason I mention this is because if you punch in "OTT Miracle Swing" on YT search 66 million (lol) videos come up with a lot of big names using it. I've finally learned to shallow the club and now I'm seeing accurate DTL videos showing all these guys coming over the top. I figured you guys would be interested from a purely academic perspective to explore this. These are not "cherry picked" camera angles. This move is blatantly obvious and it's interesting how many BIG names do it. You always say "this is what tour players do" and I'm saying THIS is also what they do. Some of the biggest names in golf did this. Lietzke, Watson, Knudson... the list is endless. How do you know you won't convert like the guy from My Swing Evolution and start teaching this as the easiest method in the future?
Can you explain the reverse K spine tilt at address again? And why it's problematic? Because I have access to a simulator and whenever I try the reverse K spine tilt at setup I gain at least 10 mph ball speed.
Do you guys have any data on how much trail wrist bends in degrees for average tour player on the downswing? Wondering if it’s worth the time stretching my wrists back to the days of my youth.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Time to get my protractor out! Seems to me that there would be more compression on the way down. Thanks for your reply, I enjoy your videos.
@@garydinmore1598 From shaft parallel through impact, the trail wrist is quickly going from ext to flex. That's been known for quite a while and reported by folks who've measured more wrists than we have. A protractor won't do much good unless the camera you're seeing the images through is moving at a 90 to the wrist bones throughout the downswing.
Can you make a video or maybe you already have one regarding after impact and the finish of the swing? Specifically talking about where the shoulders and body should end up.
Shots fired! Very respectfully though! Sounds like a lot of feel vs real? Some folks may need to feel open and exaggeratedly bending to get fully rotated? Thanks!
I wish you could see the number of golfers who come in and are actually doing some of the cartoonish level of movements because they’ve been told to do it, not just “feel it.” 😖 Thanks for the kind words 🙏🏻
There are a lot of guys that are teaching baseball and hockey movements for golf. Can you guys use your gears models to show what's really going on with these "Body-turn Swing" guys vs "Hands Swing" golfers?
We can use gears to show there is no such thing as either lol. Meaning a body turn can't hit the ball well at all without good use of the arms/hands and vice-versa. We've done a bunch of videos on both because it takes both to make a good swing.
Your last few videos where you show specific movements in isolation have been great to cut through all the miss-information that's out there. You haven't quite shown the complete movements, though. It would be fantastic to get a video showing the complete arm movement from start to finish in complete isolation from upper and lower body. It would also be equally useful to see the complete upper body movement, isolated from the arm and lower body movement. These are the two areas in which there is the most conflicting information out there, possibly because of how hard it is to visually see what is happening when both move at the same time.
@@jamshurricane the shoulder plane is more tilted toward the ball at impact than on the backswing with every player. The key takeaway here is not to try to point them at the ball on the backswing. That’s a death move and it’s being taught to a lot of golfers. I feel bad for them
@@jamshurricane you might want to look at their swings again. Their shoulders aren’t at the ball until well into the follow through, not at impact. But if you want to try to get them at the ball at impact, good luck 👍
So I think golf is hard because I’m having to unlearn all the bs I thought I knew. Then train good fundamentals. I have embraced the journey. 😅 Thanks AMG
Doesn't the action of lowering the arms in the transition just naturally tilt the shoulders where they should be at impact? Edit: 20 to 25 degrees tilted, not open at impact, correct?
Doesn’t gears show that the pros have pretty much max right side bend before P6? (Seen this shown in other videos). I mean looking at Dustin Johnson you can see how crunched his right side is before P6. Would be interested in a video on this.
I think I know where you got that from lol. No, they are not in max right side bend until way past impact ~P9ish. We thoroughly cover side bend in our next video.
You guys gotta do a video on the arms and shallowing again. Other teachers are saying the pros right arm does NOT lower or straighten as they turn from the top. It straightens way later closer to the ball. They even checked it in gears. Feel like they’re calling you guys out! Lots of misconceptions out there!
We’re working on it now. There’s so much wrong with that video that it’s gonna take a minute to put together. The funny part is, that person had never turned a gears system on. He has a copy of the software with a few starter swings in it. Those 3 players are in the database of swings used in our video, but we’ll show you the numbers that completely contradict his alternate theory lol. Stay tuned 😉
Great video! I follow you guys on IG and I think you guys posted a short vid on this same topic and referenced the Nick Price book, and so it was cool to see an in-depth look at that concept. Force me to hit the subscribe button why don’t you!
I don't know about this. Watch Tiger 2000 video in SloMo, freeze when he's at P8 (release), his shoulders are pointing basically right at where the ball was.
I think another maybe easier way to explain it is by understanding that you’re just folding your right arm because you have to, to take it back. You simply then put you forearm back from whence it came. A connected turn or hip clearance will keep the club where it needs to be. Then rhythm man rhythm. lol
I really appreciate all the videos you guys put out! I wish I had seen this video sooner! I got this tip from "Tom Saguto" on RUclips to keep my lead arm shoulder down and combined it with your other videos on shoulder/arm rotation. For the first time I'm able to start swinging in-to-out with consistency! I really can't put into words how much your videos have helped me to understand and visualize what I need to be doing in the golf swing. Thank you.
I trust you guys but there is a lot of confusion about this out there. Have you seen Milo Lines recent video where he shows some swings in gears and says basically the opposite that you are saying? He says it is thoracic bend that is shallowing the club, not the arms. He doesn’t seem to focus on the right measurements though. Thoughts?
Yeah that’s unfortunate he gives the impression he uses gears because he’s never owned or operated gears . He has a copy of the software with a “starter pack” of pro swings. We’re putting a video together now showing contradiction of what he says with what those 3 pro’s actually do. Your instincts are right 👊
@@AthleticMotionGolf Ooooohhhh. *click* That just made some things make sense. I was wondering why he wasn't showing the numbers for the angle of the upper arm compared to the chest (abduction?). Maybe he doesn't actually have access to everything. I was just thinking, "if that's true, show us the numbers." I still think he teaches some good things about a rotational golf swing, but that was a little disappointing.
Oh my, this is all very interesting… I am still convinced that right side bend happens relatively early in the swing. When I throw a club my body naturally wants this to happen. I think if you force your right shoulder down you will get into trouble. But conversely if you actively avoid early right side bend like I used to, due to watching videos, it will equally mess up your swing imo.
@@trebor5760 I don’t think I’ve ever done some away there’s no right side bend. But it most certainly isn’t maxed out in the transition or early downswing. Nor is it what lowers the arms during those phase of the swing.
Ok, so basically (for my head!), right side bend happens early in the down swing and is bigger at impact than it was at set up. What it isn’t is maxed by impact or what causes shallowing. Although, I assume that without right side bend you would need to incorporate some unhelpful move to get the club into the ball. How does that sound?! Thanks
Man its wild how drastically different the videos of players contradict yalls gear measurements. I believe yall but damn big time head scratcher. Cam young “seems” to have those shoulders pointed at the ball after impact. Is it at least relative to swing pattern? Per scott cowx. constant radius, elephants trunk etc…
The first question you have to ask yourself when watching a video on how the body moves is “Does this pro measure swings on 3D?” If not, take it with a grain of salt. If yes, ask what caliber of players is he capturing. The amount of bad subjective info available is at an all time high. You’ve got to be selective.
Damn, again completely opposite others teach... Danny says "you have shrink left side of the torso in back swing, and stretch out right side..." I am confused.
@@AthleticMotionGolf I tried. It completely changes my swing - and still my head angles dropped from +-3 to -+2. Just like that. It looks like my natural extensive rotation ruins my delivery position...
@@AthleticMotionGolf I tried to stop my body tilt and bending my spine to keep my shoulders angle not that steep in downswing. Sometimes it looks like my shoulders are like wings of a fan, rotating in the same plane that my hands turn. Yesterday I had a lesson with my coach, we were working on my driver. My biggest problem is that I have no control on the angle of the face. +4 to -4 in consecutive shots. I can manipulate my path almost as I want, but club face is crazy. I also have massive overswing. I tried to limit rotation of my hips in backswing and hold the plane of shoulders' move, basically stopping this side bend of the spine. I feel that my swing is not that "natural", there is less "flow", but apparently it helps me to control the face angle.
FREE INSTRUCTION: Get our BEST Consistency Drill Here: athleticmotiongolf.com/consistency
Are you sure its not 93% of players and not 92%? Lmao
@@TimesUp777 92.5, you make the call 😄
Love your channel. You guys explain the "real" while most other channels are teaching "feel" and causing a lot of misunderstanding on RUclips.
Yep there’s often a big gap between the two 🫣
Best comment on golf I have seen for a while 👍
This is even more useful if watched together with your Jan 15 video on pros vs ams shallowing and your Jan 22 video on 4 steps to fast hand speed. If I have correctly understood, it seems very important to bring the trail elbow and upper arm back down into contact with the chest while your shoulders are still partly closed rather than making that downward movement by yanking the trail shoulder down. Those movements you show in those videos maintain the correct shoulder tilt you demonstrate here. Thanks for all three!!
Sounds like you understand it perfectly 🙌
Hi guys
I'm from Australia and enjoy your channel. Grateful for the time and effort you put into helping us weekend golfers. With so much great content, i find it hard to find a video I watched in the past showing what you are looking for at a particular point in the swing. I would like to suggest a video/videos that summarises the things you like to see in a swing from start to finish.
Again thank you for your videos.
Love your videos and teaching styles. Have you done a video on the angle between the shaft and arms (not shaft lean) at impact or distance of hands from body (trunk/thighs) at impact?
Another eye-opening AMG video. I have been tilting my trail shoulder down immediately starting downswing my entire life. Maintaining shoulder plane throughout the swing helps everything feel far less contorted, much more natural.
Really like the approach you take. A lot of issues with instruction where they teach their own feel as fact rather than what the body is actually doing. Love it 😀
Yep, we’ve all had those type of lessons 😖
Exactly this.
Great video. In conjunction with this, in one of your videos on re-centering, you mentioned using the feel of throwing a ball to the ground. With a golf ball ball in standard ball position, where should we throw the ball (at the ball on the ground, forward of it, etc.) in order to have an optimal downswing plane of the shoulders and the club? Thank you very much.
Absolutely the best information in the game! I am totally the guy that shallows with the body. Been putting in the work to eliminate the shoulder tilt and just lower the arms to shallow the club. Thank you for all of your help! Now that the brain knows I can retrain my body.
Sometimes that 🧠 is the hardest one to retrain 🤓
Thanks for bringing golf instruction back to reality.
Great video! the set up example is with an iron. Question: When you set up with a driver, that side bend exaggerates the right shoulder being lower than the left. How does the driver set up influence how the shoulders turn back and through? I feel like I'm working away from the ball if it try to rotate around my spine and have the left shoulder lower then the right at the top of the backswing. I've always struggled with this concept.
Hi, I'm relatively new to golf, only been playing just over a year, I struggle with an over-the-top swing the question I have is have you ever taught a right-handed player who grips the club left hand below right? And would my grip be the cause of my swing? Thank you and enjoy the videos
Great video. Just watched it for second time. Superb.
Great video! My big miss is hitting behind the ball. Comparing videos where I hit cleanly and hit behind showed greater shoulder tilt when I hit behind. Any drills to help shoulder position at impact?
Thanks for clarifying key points. I hear advice from other instructors saying “hit the ball with a low right shoulder” through the ball. Put me off my game months, and shoulder tilt was way too steep through impact. Plus, didn’t feel natural.
Trust those instincts! The right shoulder is lower at impact but not cartoonishly low like we’re seeing too many golfers try doing.
Great simple explanation. That’s why you guys are the best.
Your too kind 🙏🏻💯
Real instruction, the best I know of anyways, right here on this chanel. Of course the best would be to get paid for lessons at AMC!
I'm guilty as charged for so many "wrong" ideas, like trying to point that right shoulder at the ball at impact,, years ago not recently, or swallowing the club with body tilt trying to hit from waaay inside, lol! Add in holding lag and numerous other dumb things....how did I ever enjoy this game!! Thanx guys!,,
We’re right there with you on doing “dumb” stuff in our swings. Let’s chalk it up to be youth 😆
@AthleticMotionGolf if you have spine tilt at address, maintain it in the backswing, wouldn’t that player tend to have less shoulder tilt at say p6 in the downswing? Compared to an am who reverse pivots and then tilts late (lot of tilt at p6)?
Love these videos, thanks for the Important information you guys are talking about
My goodness first video I’ve found that actually describes this. So many times I was doing what other RUclipsrs were saying getting that right shoulder down and my swing got worse over 3 months.
Yikes! We hear that a lot unfortunately. We hope this helps get you back on 🎯 👊🤓
Just to reiterate something, in your Pros vs AMS left shoulder movement, in good players the left shoulder moves down in transition, correct, while the Amateurs left shoulder tends to pop up, correct?
When the arms drop in downswing, combined with the body rotation is it more of a sweeping motion for lack of a better term?
Best golf instruction content on RUclips
3:10 good to know, i always thought you wanted to get that grip pointing almost right at the ball. the ol' stack and tilt
No. It should point well out duff the ball
Thanks for doing this guys. Excellent content as always. Sounds like you cleaned up some confusion for a lot of people. 🔥
We hope it helps anyone who’s been trying to play with cartoonishly steep shoulders 🤓
Very helpful. Thanks
Great illustration guys. Thank you. I see it differently now. Thanks again.
Let us know if you have any questions 👊
Good explanation. It would be good to see one of you swing to demonstrate the swing. You are showing static positions. How you get when you are actually swing would be very useful.
That’s the one! Still working on it Mike. Fire! ❤
Would love to see a lesson video like this on hand path especially in the backswing as it’s my biggest struggle. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Your channel is my go to channel for golf, thanks for the content. I historically have a problem coming over the top I have regular lessons with a PGA pro. I have a spinal fusion (only my bottom 2 vertebrae work) and have a big problem with side tilt and keeping my shoulder line closed on the downswing. My instructor explained that my shoulder line should be closed, or at a minimum, square at impact if I want to stop from coming over the top. You mentioned "square to slightly open" on your video and then say about "25 degrees open". Can you please explain if the closed is feel and the 25 degrees is real? Or if keeping square at impact really is the soluteion to stop from coming over the top and I just need to figure out how to make it happen. With my back issues it is really difficult to keep square unless I am standing very tall. Thanks for the vids and any input!
I've had the "pleasure" of having spinal fusion as well, so I feel your pain 😅
The shoulders are slightly open to square at impact which makes them well closed mid way down as your pro suggested. The chest is more open at impact however (~25 deg). The chest/ribcage and shoulders do not have the same amount of rotation at impact. Hope that helps!
@@AthleticMotionGolf It does! I will just keep working on flexibility exercises etc. I wish there were some videos related to the swing for people with spinal fusions. haha 90% of my back is fused so there is not much twising going on, but I am going to get the golf swing down no matter what it takes. I look forward to your next video!
I understand this was a shoulder plane video.
Wouldn't the actual shoulder plane point a bit closer to ball from hip tilt. Left hip lower than right at top (for righty).
Or am I misunderstanding "Shoulders TURN/hips tilt"?
Thx 🙂
This includes the hip tilt 😉
Excellent video, so well explained. Thank you!!!
Appreciate you taking the time to watch 👊
Thanks for the video. Ive seen many other youtube video about left side bent in backswing and right side bent in downswing.
From this video it does not look like you are recommending any side bent.
Is this true?
Rgrds
I got same question.Your instruction is totally different than many other video. They all said like @juanbotha6634 described.
Thank you. Once again a fantastic and simple explanation showing me what I'm doing wrong and how to correct it.
We hope it helps 👊
Thanks again.
Consistently great! 👍
🙏🏻👊
Great job guys!
Thank you for all you do.
Thank YOU 👊
Clear… Concise… Confident 👏
🙏🏻👊
You guys are great as always. The one thing I and many wish is being more clear in this (or any lesson) if a lesson is just for irons or driver or both. I’m sure you cover that but it’s important to constantly explain for which clubs this is for and briefly touch in how it may change or not apply for other clubs and why. And where they can go learn what we concept for other clubs if it’s different.
U guys rock thou.
They’ve said it many times .. same with driver and irons ..
Unless we make a not to say something is specific to one or the other, you can use it for both 👊🤓
How many degrees should you aim for with your shoulder plane, with driver and one plane , high handle swing?
Love your videos !
@@huddwah are you trying to swing on one plane?
@@AthleticMotionGolf sure am !
I'm finding it very difficult to combine: tlting away from the ball (at address), while bending over enough to give me a reasonable amount of shoulder plane angle. (i've had two TPI screenings and no limitations on flexibility.
Too much tilt feels difficult to maintain throughout the swing, much too steep on the ball and prone to going out and cutting across the ball...
Fairly flat shoulder plane feels easy, powerful... I don't know any pros that have flat shoulder planes so .... I'm trying to see what the max comfortable amount is ... And see if that is within range of the pros.... Does that make sense?
Thanks for replying!
@@huddwah 1. What's the reasoning behind trying to swing on one plane?
2. Here's a good range for shoulder plane ruclips.net/video/ai-xkLPX8Cs/видео.htmlsi=ETFh-qxfDSxQnZcx&t=230
@@AthleticMotionGolf exactly the conversation I needed to hear!!! Man that's so helpful and I'm amazed you have it there already. Brilliant!
AND you took the time to reply... Legends ! Thank you !!!! 🙏
P.s. I'm trying one plane out to see if it's easier and more consistent. Mainly with Driver.
So far I feel like it's much much simpler, easier and more intuitive than shallowing etc.
The first time I tried it , with a "swinging a pail of water" feel, power was effortless and plane was much easier to control. Also I feel like I could do it all day long because my back feels more comfortable... (Maybe due to not having to fight insufficient shallowing /OTT)
Can say I love the content you guys make on how the golf swing is ACTUALLY working and not all these guys trying to get people to bend or tilt in all crazy ways to get the shoulders down through impact and it just looks silly unless you work in the circus or something very a George G style of teaching “let the body rotation square the face” I’ve never understood it
Great stuff, as usual. My underrstanding from a recent article I read was that Hogan was 15-17 degrees with shoulders open at address but that's not my question here. My question is what do you think of OTT/OTTFI - Over the Top/ Over the Top from Inside that is now popular and recommended by certain instructors on YT. They point to a lot of top players who did this in the past and players doing it now. Now labeled as "the best way to smash the ball." Can you comment and/or do a video on this topic? Thanks.
Hogan was never on 3D unfortunately. His numbers have been guessed at for decades. There's currently not a system that can accurately measure things from a video. I know OTT has been around a long time lol. We've been around the block long enough to know that most bad ideas in golf come from cherry picked camera angles of pics or videos. Cameras can be positioned to make just about any swing have a certain "look." We haven't had anyone come see us who've said they were working on OTTFI, so I don't know how much value it would be to comment on something we really haven't seen first hand.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Hi, guys. The reason I mention this is because if you punch in "OTT Miracle Swing" on YT search 66 million (lol) videos come up with a lot of big names using it. I've finally learned to shallow the club and now I'm seeing accurate DTL videos showing all these guys coming over the top. I figured you guys would be interested from a purely academic perspective to explore this. These are not "cherry picked" camera angles. This move is blatantly obvious and it's interesting how many BIG names do it. You always say "this is what tour players do" and I'm saying THIS is also what they do. Some of the biggest names in golf did this. Lietzke, Watson, Knudson... the list is endless. How do you know you won't convert like the guy from My Swing Evolution and start teaching this as the easiest method in the future?
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL
Can you explain the reverse K spine tilt at address again? And why it's problematic? Because I have access to a simulator and whenever I try the reverse K spine tilt at setup I gain at least 10 mph ball speed.
J Niemann would be the exception as far as pointing his shoulder at the ball.
Do you guys have any data on how much trail wrist bends in degrees for average tour player on the downswing? Wondering if it’s worth the time stretching my wrists back to the days of my youth.
A normal range would be ~50 at the top, then down to ~20 by impact.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Time to get my protractor out! Seems to me that there would be more compression on the way down. Thanks for your reply, I enjoy your videos.
@@garydinmore1598 From shaft parallel through impact, the trail wrist is quickly going from ext to flex. That's been known for quite a while and reported by folks who've measured more wrists than we have. A protractor won't do much good unless the camera you're seeing the images through is moving at a 90 to the wrist bones throughout the downswing.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Does the trail wrist extension increase some in transition / early downswing?
Can you make a video or maybe you already have one regarding after impact and the finish of the swing? Specifically talking about where the shoulders and body should end up.
Great idea 👍
Shots fired! Very respectfully though! Sounds like a lot of feel vs real? Some folks may need to feel open and exaggeratedly bending to get fully rotated? Thanks!
I wish you could see the number of golfers who come in and are actually doing some of the cartoonish level of movements because they’ve been told to do it, not just “feel it.” 😖
Thanks for the kind words 🙏🏻
Stunning as always
We never been accused of that before 😄
Thanks for watching 🙏🏻
Another bravo!! Wow guys I’ll be winning tournaments in no time for real. Thank you so much!
We’ll be happy with the standard 3% of all in-course winnings 👊😄
@@AthleticMotionGolf DEAL! 🤝
There are a lot of guys that are teaching baseball and hockey movements for golf. Can you guys use your gears models to show what's really going on with these "Body-turn Swing" guys vs "Hands Swing" golfers?
We can use gears to show there is no such thing as either lol. Meaning a body turn can't hit the ball well at all without good use of the arms/hands and vice-versa. We've done a bunch of videos on both because it takes both to make a good swing.
Your last few videos where you show specific movements in isolation have been great to cut through all the miss-information that's out there. You haven't quite shown the complete movements, though. It would be fantastic to get a video showing the complete arm movement from start to finish in complete isolation from upper and lower body. It would also be equally useful to see the complete upper body movement, isolated from the arm and lower body movement. These are the two areas in which there is the most conflicting information out there, possibly because of how hard it is to visually see what is happening when both move at the same time.
We can do that 👍
Y’all been putting out that heat lately 🔥🔥🔥 getting a lot of fat shots with the arm lowering shallowing tho
Make sure there’s still a turn and shift in there as you lower. Are you recording your swings?
Shoulder plane of Tommy Fleetwood and Hovland are not considered correct?
Why would you think that?
@@AthleticMotionGolf because both have their shoulder planes are very steep towards the ball at impact. You guys said in the video not to do that
@@jamshurricane the shoulder plane is more tilted toward the ball at impact than on the backswing with every player. The key takeaway here is not to try to point them at the ball on the backswing. That’s a death move and it’s being taught to a lot of golfers. I feel bad for them
@@jamshurricane you might want to look at their swings again. Their shoulders aren’t at the ball until well into the follow through, not at impact. But if you want to try to get them at the ball at impact, good luck 👍
So was Ben Hogan wrong about the shoulders being on the glass plane from neck to the ball?
Another golden nugget!
👊🙏🏻
So I think golf is hard because I’m having to unlearn all the bs I thought I knew. Then train good fundamentals. I have embraced the journey. 😅 Thanks AMG
You and me both on that unlearning business 🤦♂️😅
Doesn't the action of lowering the arms in the transition just naturally tilt the shoulders where they should be at impact? Edit: 20 to 25 degrees tilted, not open at impact, correct?
It works that simply for a lot of golfers 👊
@@AthleticMotionGolf certainly for the best players in the game, anyway 😂
Doesn’t gears show that the pros have pretty much max right side bend before P6? (Seen this shown in other videos). I mean looking at Dustin Johnson you can see how crunched his right side is before P6. Would be interested in a video on this.
I think I know where you got that from lol. No, they are not in max right side bend until way past impact ~P9ish. We thoroughly cover side bend in our next video.
Great, let’s see. But after watching out for it in videos I’m not convinced yet 😉
Just rewatched his video. At 1min 34 seconds the image of Dustin Johnson and then Tiger at the end is pretty convincing!
@@trebor5760 Every bad concept in golf came from an image that looked pretty convincing lol. If only there was a way to measure it 🤓
Well to be fair he did measure it using gears! But let’s see. When is yours coming out, I’m intrigued!
You guys gotta do a video on the arms and shallowing again. Other teachers are saying the pros right arm does NOT lower or straighten as they turn from the top. It straightens way later closer to the ball. They even checked it in gears. Feel like they’re calling you guys out! Lots of misconceptions out there!
We’re working on it now. There’s so much wrong with that video that it’s gonna take a minute to put together. The funny part is, that person had never turned a gears system on. He has a copy of the software with a few starter swings in it. Those 3 players are in the database of swings used in our video, but we’ll show you the numbers that completely contradict his alternate theory lol. Stay tuned 😉
Great video! I follow you guys on IG and I think you guys posted a short vid on this same topic and referenced the Nick Price book, and so it was cool to see an in-depth look at that concept. Force me to hit the subscribe button why don’t you!
I don't know about this. Watch Tiger 2000 video in SloMo, freeze when he's at P8 (release), his shoulders are pointing basically right at where the ball was.
How can we see the tour database to confirm this stuff for ourselves?
No one has 2000 TW on 3D, but if that’s what you want to do, have at it. How many back surgeries has he had since 2000?
@@teccypoo I was a replying to Nova’s post about Tiger, not yours.
@@AthleticMotionGolf great to know but can you please answer my original question - how do we access the tour database ?
@@teccypoo are you talking about OUR tour database?
I think another maybe easier way to explain it is by understanding that you’re just folding your right arm because you have to, to take it back. You simply then put you forearm back from whence it came. A connected turn or hip clearance will keep the club where it needs to be. Then rhythm man rhythm. lol
Good point!
I really appreciate all the videos you guys put out! I wish I had seen this video sooner! I got this tip from "Tom Saguto" on RUclips to keep my lead arm shoulder down and combined it with your other videos on shoulder/arm rotation. For the first time I'm able to start swinging in-to-out with consistency! I really can't put into words how much your videos have helped me to understand and visualize what I need to be doing in the golf swing. Thank you.
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I trust you guys but there is a lot of confusion about this out there. Have you seen Milo Lines recent video where he shows some swings in gears and says basically the opposite that you are saying? He says it is thoracic bend that is shallowing the club, not the arms. He doesn’t seem to focus on the right measurements though. Thoughts?
Yeah that’s unfortunate he gives the impression he uses gears because he’s never owned or operated gears . He has a copy of the software with a “starter pack” of pro swings. We’re putting a video together now showing contradiction of what he says with what those 3 pro’s actually do. Your instincts are right 👊
@@AthleticMotionGolf Ooooohhhh. *click* That just made some things make sense. I was wondering why he wasn't showing the numbers for the angle of the upper arm compared to the chest (abduction?). Maybe he doesn't actually have access to everything. I was just thinking, "if that's true, show us the numbers." I still think he teaches some good things about a rotational golf swing, but that was a little disappointing.
Oh my, this is all very interesting… I am still convinced that right side bend happens relatively early in the swing. When I throw a club my body naturally wants this to happen. I think if you force your right shoulder down you will get into trouble. But conversely if you actively avoid early right side bend like I used to, due to watching videos, it will equally mess up your swing imo.
@@trebor5760 I don’t think I’ve ever done some away there’s no right side bend. But it most certainly isn’t maxed out in the transition or early downswing. Nor is it what lowers the arms during those phase of the swing.
Ok, so basically (for my head!), right side bend happens early in the down swing and is bigger at impact than it was at set up.
What it isn’t is maxed by impact or what causes shallowing. Although, I assume that without right side bend you would need to incorporate some unhelpful move to get the club into the ball.
How does that sound?!
Thanks
Always good videos and I keep looking elsewhere when just your videos straighten me out every time. 🤦♂️
You sound like me when the all the magazines would hit the 📫 🫣
Man its wild how drastically different the videos of players contradict yalls gear measurements. I believe yall but damn big time head scratcher. Cam young “seems” to have those shoulders pointed at the ball after impact. Is it at least relative to swing pattern? Per scott cowx. constant radius, elephants trunk etc…
There are number of golf training videos out there tell you differently…or conflicting with one another. Very confusing!
The first question you have to ask yourself when watching a video on how the body moves is “Does this pro measure swings on 3D?” If not, take it with a grain of salt. If yes, ask what caliber of players is he capturing. The amount of bad subjective info available is at an all time high. You’ve got to be selective.
Isn’t it common in golf instruction to have the club point at the ball (doing the club across shoulder drill). Yikes!!!
Gankas watching this like 👀
Mike, think Keto.
92%? Where's your research??
It’s in the database of thousands of amateur swings we’ve captured on 3D over the past 8 years.
Damn, again completely opposite others teach... Danny says "you have shrink left side of the torso in back swing, and stretch out right side..."
I am confused.
Welcome to golf instruction
That’s why we go through all the expenses and hassle of measuring what really happens. This is what happens. What it feels like can’t vary.
@@AthleticMotionGolf I tried. It completely changes my swing - and still my head angles dropped from +-3 to -+2. Just like that.
It looks like my natural extensive rotation ruins my delivery position...
@@MrMartwy I'm lost, what did you try?
@@AthleticMotionGolf I tried to stop my body tilt and bending my spine to keep my shoulders angle not that steep in downswing.
Sometimes it looks like my shoulders are like wings of a fan, rotating in the same plane that my hands turn.
Yesterday I had a lesson with my coach, we were working on my driver. My biggest problem is that I have no control on the angle of the face. +4 to -4 in consecutive shots. I can manipulate my path almost as I want, but club face is crazy.
I also have massive overswing.
I tried to limit rotation of my hips in backswing and hold the plane of shoulders' move, basically stopping this side bend of the spine.
I feel that my swing is not that "natural", there is less "flow", but apparently it helps me to control the face angle.
Legend has it chuck pretended to be a dr so he could check tigers prostate