Thanks again to Private Internet Access for sponsoring the video! Check them out at www.privateinternetaccess.com/Toms3d E3D's Revo ecosystem has its ups and downs - will you switch?
I really like the idea of the Revo and will consider switching when hardened nozzles are available. I'm currently running a volcano with a hardened 0.4mm nozzle and a copper heat block. On the other hand, why fix what is not broken? I might switch if/when my volcano starts having issues.
There are people who have a custom end gcode so it retracts the filament out of the Revo after every print. That way you can always just swap nozzles :)
Actually I have a large retraction after cooling the filament a bit at the end, so that I can swap filaments with it cold, and clean the area a bit, kind like a cold-pull I guess ?
@@PeterTPhan I actually don't retract for the purpose of nozzle or filament changes at the end of a print. I am planning to do that though. Just got a Revo installen on my Voron v0.1
Hey Tom, thanks for taking the time to review our Revo ecosystem, it's a great informative video! In order to make nozzle changes as quick as possible we recommend removing filament from the nozzle as part of your Slicer's end gcode. This way you won't have to first heat up the nozzle to remove the filament, as this is already done. Thanks, Team E3D
That's a great idea! I'm waiting on mine to arrive, can't wait to convert all of my printers over to the new hot end. I switch between .4mm and .8mm nozzels waaay to often
What's the bore of this heatbreak element though? If it's ~1.95-2.0mm or more, following your recommendation is most likely gonna cause a jam for anyone using Capricorn tubing anywhere near the hotend/collet or extruder. If this is the case, you really should make that advisory caveat clear.
I was thinking it would be cool if they made a special "nozzle break" which could fit standard V6 nozzles. Then you could have the best of both worlds, quick change and the large ecosystem of different and replacable nozzles. Sort of a customisable nozzle break as it were. I wouldn't even mind if it was lower performance and more bulky than the standard nozzlebreaks; and the greater difficulty of hot tightening (although the nozzle may increase the length of the melting zone?), the modularity and cheaper replacable nozzles would be worth it for many people, and make Revo more palletable in the open source community Also you only need to make one "special" nozzle break rather than all the different ones for the different nozzles. It would give options for higher cost but better ease of use and performance of the standard nozzlebreaks or swappable standard nozzles for advanced or money concious users.
The speed of the nozzle change was furthest from my mind. But not having to hot tighten everything is a game changer for me. I hate torquing the hot nozzles to keep them from leaking.
@@haysoos123 How much are accurate ones? $30ish yeah? That’s more than the price difference between an E3D V6 and an E3D Revo 6. If you’ve got a single machine and obliterate your V6, might as well grab a Revo 6.
So much this! No matter how careful I am, I'm always terrified of either breaking my heatbreak or failing to tighten the nozzle enough to avoid leaks. Doing away with that union is magic.
We have several printers with V6 at work, trying to dig out the hot end after someone printed a 18h petg tennis ball on it without breaking the termistor or heat cartridge cables is a challenge...
Agree 👍 screwing back a nozzle is always a flight on sight an leaves you alone with the question if the nozzle really has contact with the tube screwed from above 😞
The more walled off ecosystem/ closed source-ness of recent things including this is saddening, but it is great to see creators like you keep “carrying the torch”. With creators like you advocating for you we can keep the flame alive!
Agreed. This is the reason I won't be considering Revo. It's just not going to have the flexibility that an open ecosystem has, and £19 per nozzle is just hilarious, no chance.
As 3D printing gains more popularity, things like this are bound to happen. The best we can do is not purchase these products and speak out against it. This goes against the nature of the 3D printing community and we should not tolerate it tainting this space. Next thing you know we'll have hot ends and extruders that only work with certain filaments or slicers. That's not the world I want
@@CandidProle But we want companies to keep creating new stuff, spending all the time ans money on r&d only to get cloned by aliexpress shops so they can undercut the creator and run with the money. The amount of engineering that went into this is pretty insane and I completely understand why they took out a patent looking at the state of the v6 market
@@MrBoydheeresThe amount of engineering that went into this is not insane and is built off the back of other technologies that already exist. Patents and copyrights do nothing but stifle innovation and artificially raise prices.
first ;.; EDIT: real comment lol, the lack of a hex to use a socket for safe swapping while hot is a huge oversight on e3d's part IMO. The Cetus nozzles (which have been in production since 2016) are quite similar in their integrated design, but have a small hex behind the silicon sock allowing for much safer nozzle changes. I'm no patent lawyer but that'll be an interesting case to fight.
Yes! Also ideas like an automated nozzle changer become way harder like this. It seems to me the aggressive cost saving e3d is so proud of on Revo has some downsides after all. Still, an ERCF that also switches to the optimal nozzle while changing the filament would be super awesome!
I can definitely see a workflow where printers are left without a filament inside, so that you can change nozzle, load filament, print, unload (loading and unloading can be done automatically in gcode)
Same. I got into 3D printing on the promise of open hardware, E3D reversing their 2017 promise "to move more towards fully open source design." ("After all, we're confident that what makes an E3D product truly worthwhile is more than just its schematics." *ahem*). I mean, it's their choice how they want to do business, but this isn't what _I,_ personally, signed up for.
I have to say, the nozzle being locked down is a major deterrent to buying into the ecosystem. Also, they may have a very hard time actually defending design patents surrounding this nozzle, as the thread and shape of the "cold" end are functional interfaces. Only the design of the silicon sock may have some merit, but who cares if that end is round or hexagonal...
' design patents ' ' as the thread and shape of the "cold" end are functional interfaces.' Exactly. Amazing how many people do not really understand that design patents fail where the design is a consequence of function, that requires a unique enough solution to get a utility patent. Design is like a Nike swoosh, it doesn't stop someone else from making a shoe the same size and shape, only in putting the design swoosh on it.. Instead of a circular end make it an octagon, clearly recognizable as a different design..
@@hostinggeek I did buy one and its been good ... i dont have to many prints with it but the few ive done has been fine. Not had to "hot swap" a nozzle yet...
9:38 Nevermind the relative values here, I would have never guessed that it can take more than "0.5kg" (~5N) of force to extrude PLA at relatively standard settings! Would have guessed maybe 50-100g, a Bowden setup being able to deliver >1kg of force along a PTFE tube feels really surprising and counterintuitive 14:04 Might be nice to link that video in the description 17:54 "quick geometric approximation" *overlays graph of total confirmed covid cases* xD Out of all the ways to do extrapolation badly, this is the best worst
This translates to my experiece when using shitty heater blocks. Why cheap printers with weak extruders cause problems. Investment in a decent copper block and tuning temps is the only way to go.
A 1A pancake motor in a BMG or similar extruder can absolutely destroy bowden tubes. Even the short length in a direct drive. Sensible tuning is work out the peak flow from die stress (when your prints warp like crazy, print a vase mode test with lots of straight lines and smooth curves and crank the speed up until it screws itself up into a ball), and then drop extruder current so you can achieve that flow but not much more. If you have some kind of MMU, you might be able to add some custom gcode to up the stepper current during a filament change, as PrusaSlicer style ramming is quite violent.
9:20 To those saying he should be using load cells, many modern digital kitchen scales use load cells... This way, Tom doesn't have to rig up an amp and a micro to figure out the applied force.
Long time viewer, first time commenter: Thomas thank you so much for mentioning Color Vision Deficiency in this review. I'm a strong deutan and these issues really affect me but I never hear them discussed. Well done! Paused the video at 5:39 to mention this, now back to watching.
Thanks for the thorough review. I look forward to using the Revo system eventually - but I’m not in a big hurry. For me, it is less about the reduced _time_ to change nozzles, but instead the _ease_ of changing nozzles. No more risk of tearing out tiny thermistor wires. No more burning of fingers. No more HEATER ERROR when you grab the heat block with pliers and it sucks the heat out, and the heater can’t keep up. No more leaks because I didn’t torque it enough since I was afraid of bending the heatbreak, etc. I can imagine even changing nozzles during a single print - going to 0.20 nozzle to get fine text to show up properly at the top of a print, for example.
I've read that Dragon/Mosquito heatbreaks have issues with abrasive filaments. Apparently the thin connecting tube likes to wear out and break after some time. I wonder what the nozzle/heatbreak of Revo will look like in it's hardened steel version. If thin metal tube will be the same as in brass version it might face the same issue as Dragon - just in Revo case it will fall down along with heater.
I want to make my own version of this out of a tianglelabs chc pro with CNC Stephan's custom volcano cht nozzle. Im drooling over the possibilities of the copper wires in the filament path also heating up, transferring even more heat into the filament 😍
I was thinking the same. What would be cool is a "mixing nozzle" like geometry used on epoxy tubes that is designed specifically so that every bit of what flows through makes maximum contact.
If you have the Prusa eject filament after each print then there's less of an issue with quick change. Anybody with an MMU2 will have this happen automatically for them, so it really is quick change.
The last thing I would do is moving from an open design to a closed one. Quick nozzle swapping isn't anywhere on my priority list as I made my hotends swappable; that takes less time than just unscrewing a revo nozzle and can be done without burning your hands even when the hotend is hot.
To avoid swapping nozzles I always had “cold swap” V6 dangling on the side preloaded with 2nd most common nozzle size I use. Might seem pricey but we’ll worth it.
I do this, I have 3 or 4 voron (afterburner/stealthburner/ABBN) toolheads between two printers, a 0.4 with a bimetallic heatbreak, a high temp capable 0.4, a 0.6 CHT in a V6 clone with a genuine heatbreak, and a spare/experimental clone v6
Excellent review. Love the focus on real-world practicality. I would love to see e3d eventually offer first-party cooling duct reference designs for all three (Hermera, Micro and Groovemount) packages. It's so hard to find good ducts on thingiverse etc, and its really not easy to design one yourself either. Having a standard, first-party, reference design from e3d with convenient nozzle access and verifiably engineered fluid dynamics would be hugely helpful.
Yes, that and a wire guide! Like, cut a channel in the hemera somewhere to route my wires from the hot end or a tab on the heat sink I can attach them to.
This is the first product I've ever pre ordered in my life and I'm stoked for it! I'm contemplating making a compact portable printer that I can take places and print parts on the spot. The variation of nozzle sizes and future hardened versions will make it easier to take what I need and have a versatile machine.
Thank you for your honest review. As someone relatively new to the Prusa Mk3S+, I am fine with the stock extruder. Also thanks for the tip about the 0.6 nozzle. I will definitely try that!
Thomas making a Ryan George reference. That is two great tastes that taste great together, together again for the first time. Screen Pitch quotes are tight.
I've been using 0.6 as standard for over a year. There's practically nothing I can do with a .4 that the .6 can't do just as nicely and faster. I installed it for some big parts and never took it out, just dialed down width and height when I needed the extra detail, which is surprisingly rare.
Just woke up today to a huge blob of plastic around my V6... thermistor cables broken and so on. Not first time but this time I didnt have spare thermistor on hand. Decided to order Revo, I hope it really is more robust and maybe now I finally try 0.6 nozzle :) Thanks for your review.
Honestly I would already have one if it wasn't for the patents. It just feels wrong to me. A hobby for geeks and tinkerers, that got so big because everything was open and people wanted to improve everything that came out, is getting closed off by patents that don't allow for the amazing things that got the hobby to where it is.
Don't worry, once the people have done the majority of heavy lifting of developing these machines, the smartarses are going to come in and patent key parts that would block the further development for next 25 years. See you in 2050 when the next wave of development will kick in.
Understand the feeling of not liking patents in an open source design community, but having Chinese companies ripping off your design and undercutting you on price isn't in the spirit either. Parasitic business practices like this essentially suck money away from innovators, just the world we live in, and given how universally reproduced the titan and v6 were I don't blame them for trying to fight back. If E3D didnt have to worry about this, I'm sure they wouldnt have bothered to patent.
@@TheMastaRob Everyone should do what they are good at and everyone should be paid only when they are doing that thing. E3d isn't a massive manufacturer to my knowledge, it hasn't got bit factories and optimised supply chain behind them. I think E3d - should run kickstarter campaigns and decouple innovation funds from manufacturing. And yes I think those Chinese companies that optimise things such that this innovation becomes accessible are super important and not a parasites in the slightest. Without them we wouldn't have the very community we enjoy. But when a company uses the work of millions of those engineers and hobbyists and then get a patent on a crucial aspect blocking other's innovation that's parasiting. It is not that they are making their 100bucks selling 5g of brass. It is that locking the patent they are blocking anyone else making those in ruby, steel, vanadium, copper, adjusting shapes, improving manufacturability. And it is not just a "sentiment" that is parasiting. You can't just patent a parts of otherwise open source community, and then sit there for 25 years doing f-k all and skimming the benefits from other's work. Imagine some smart arse getting a sole ownershop of the door knob of your house. You can have it in brass only, and you have to pay every time you touch it. We will also fight tooth and nail anyone who makes the doorknobs even remotely resembling ours. You built and own the house but we own the key...
@@makerbeelab5546 Totally disagree. I know a lot of people dislike patents, because they can and regularly are abused, which I understand. But in this case, the term parasitic is accurate. When a company spends money to create a new product, then the ultimate price of the product has these costs built in. If another company then copy, then can sell cheaper not just because they have better supply lines, or cheaper labour, but because they don't have to recoup cost. The company that is copying, are not on an even playing field, they have a competitive advantage by being unethical. Which, in turn, disincentives the original company from spending money on innovation. Parasitic means to benefit self, while damaging the host, while is exactly what such activities do. Yes, actual hobbyists can access products cheaper when they are copies - and I understand people like cheap stuff, but that doesnt make it ethical. It actively damages innovation, of the sort that the average person with a 3d printer simply cannot do, because you need machining shops with precision equipment and the skills to use it. And of course, if all the people buying knockoff instead bought from the original designer, they'd be able to optimise and reduce their own costs on volume (plus keeping money circulating in the Western nation, having a wider positive impact on local wealth). Re your door knob analogy, any rules can be stretched to be unreasonable, sorry but it means nothing. We're not talking about unethical doorknob designers, we're talking about E3D having to compete with Chinese manufacturers who will copy anything they do at the drop of a hat. Again, if this wasnt the very specific situation, I doubt they'd have patented. And you are assuming they're going to try and lock everyone else out of their walled garden, which we simply don't know right now. Yes, all design and innovation is built on the work that comes before, that's how progress works, nothing is even invented in a vacuum. Call patenting parasitic if you like, I disagree, but you know how many companies have gone bankrupt because their IP was copied and undercut? Countless.
Following up on this even though I've already commented - you mentioned 0.6mm nozzles being able to do basically everything you need toward the end of this video. Having freedom to quickly choose between slicer profiles and nozzles (I made a 2 minute nozzle swap gcode routine that I run each time), I've found I'm basically entirely swapped over to 0.6mm for my parts these days. If I'm doing anything that requires tight tolerances, I'll drop to 0.4, and if I'm in a rush it's great to have 0.8 at the ready, but for the random items I tend to need, 0.6 has been fantastic and has saved me hours. Great call!
Swapped to revo over the weekend on my mk2s and it's like having a brand new machine. I've broken thermistor cables, burned myself, and fused nozzles permanently onto my socket sets trying to remove V6 nozzles on many occasions, and I'm not even a clumsy person with such things in most cases. Revo is the first product that's made me COMFORTABLE with swapping my nozzle on a regular basis, and it's been downright empowering. Absolutely loving it.
Thanks for all the info. For me, the main advantage would be that I can quickly change between .4 and .8 mm nozzles, which I do a lot actually. But at 20 bucks a pop, I can have that with CHT nozzles and still be free to use all of the standard V6 stuff.
Thank you very much for the awesome review, learned a lot and your final conclusion rings true for myself too, the 0.6 CHT nozzle from Bondtech will be good enough for 99% of my prints.
One of the great things about 3D printers, compare to other maker devices, is the open nature. Supporting a proprietary replacement of a well working open product would make little sense for me. Thank you for laying out the advantages and disadvantages.
whoaaa new vid from Thomas. Love you're videos dude. they're always full of great content that even I, who don't really keep up with the latest, find helpful and often times also entertaining
Still waiting for them to start shipping it to people who preordered on the first day. Shops all over the world are getting them, but not the fans of E3D who prepaid. I'm disappointed by that.
@@Tinkerz there’s no confusion. The issue at hand is people that paid E3D many weeks ago might not get their unit before someone who preorders a unit from a random reseller tomorrow. Specifically my issue is that E3D never made this multi-source rollout known to anyone. Until about a week ago the only place to preorder Revo was from E3D directly. If they can support every single pre order they’ve gotten thus far until launch day with their stock then great. If they can’t though and instead a bunch of units were shipped to resellers then I think that’s a pretty poor handling of this situation. In general their lack of open and transparent communication on all of this is my biggest gripe.
I'd be interested in seeing a video on the Trianglelab CHC ceramic heater cores that are compatible with the V6 ecosystem. I just got one, but it'll be a while until it gets here and I get to play with it.
I get the patents, however I really hope they would be willing to allow licensing of their designs (at a reasonable price) which would help protect their design investment but also allow for the range of nozzles etc to be enhanced.
Agreed, to me it would keep the spirit alive if they are flexible in allowing manufacturers who add value to design and capabilities in on the licensing. I don't actually have such a problem with the patenting in itself, as many people seem to do - designing new products is hard, and having Chinese companies just copying everything you've done at a lower price isn't in the spirit of open source either. It's actively parasitic, since they don't have to pay the design costs.
I think they are screwing themselves here, month later still no hardened nozzle is a deal breaker for me. If it was open source, there would have been multiple hardened nozzles already and I would have bought into the ecosystem
Great look at this Tom. So the way I am seeing it is "If you are in the market for a new/replacement hot-end, then Revo is a good way to go- If there is nothing wrong with your existing hot-end, maybe wait for the eco-system to develop a bit more before jumping onboard."
Its an interesting advancement, but i think i'll stick to my DD and volcano till they open their 3rd party market options. Stranglehold patents on new technologies like this is why we havent been allowed to even think about active heated chambers with the board on the outside until a year or so ago. I hope E3D changes their patent policy, but im not holding my breath for aftermarket support
I preordered this because I failed at a nozzle change on my V6 and ended up buying a whole new hot end due to leaking. I am inexperienced and it seems like I would get the most out of it.
Es ist echt krass, ich glaube jeder Deutscher hat einen Deutschen-Radar, mit dem er erkennt, dass ihm gegenüber auch ein Deutscher sitzt. Klar, bei dem Namen ist es nicht allzu schwer, aber trotzdem. Respekt dafür, dass du so flüssig und akzentfrei englisch sprechen kannst und danke für den guten Content!
I have broken the wires on my v6 heater cartridge several times and just dont change nozzles anymore. I am very excited for the ease of use aspect of it.
I am probably alone here but I have pulled 3 thermistor wires out by accident this year. This is a good enough reason for me to pick this up. I am probably just unlucky but doing the swaps hot with tools is a real pain.
part of me is somewhat sad that a lot of the cool tech are not open source now (a lot of high end printer design is open source, but I'm talking more about part/part designs) at the same time i kind of also see why they would need to do it, after all, you can't really get paid via exposure, being the grandfather of all major 3D printer hotend is one thing, making profit is another, can't really fight mass scale production game when you also need to do RnD and actually want to do QC but i think there's still the idea though, of a more elegant hotend system that are not just slapping parts to a block of aluminum, if someone else would make a new standard to move on from v6, that'd be cool but not really having my hopes up
Tom: Mentions the fact that it may be hard to tell the nozzles apart if colorblind. Also Tom: Uses the most-likely-confused colors for every graph. My colorblindness is minor and I could tell them apart, but shame on you. Very good research! Thanks for the video!
Excellent review! also, i really liked the discussion about the implications of the patent. Very nicely done, without imposing an opinion, just raising questions. And as your conclusion said, perhaps i just need to slap a 0.6 nozzle to my MK2.5 to have faster prints and be happy :)
Then there is me with my cheap $95 RepRapGuru i3 printer I snagged off eBay brand new in box. I must have somewhat lucked out as after tweaking a few things it works great! Not fast but consistent prints in PLA & PLA+. I have only changed my nozzle & heater block with a micro-swiss one. But thanks for the great in-depth video.
I'd have loved to hear the vol flow rate you're getting from Revo. I'm wondering how it compares to a by with a CHT nozzle or compact highflow hotend like mosquito or phaetus dragon.
@@MadeWithLayers yep, I can do some maths and guess, but my extruders can inflate a PTFE tube like a balloon of there's a blockage, and I get die shrink issues well before the extruder skips.
I think gaining a reduction of extrusion force is important as high force plus compliance, even with direct extruders gives rise to oozing and more visible z seams.
Thank you, great review, but I miss the resistance testing of the extruded filament with a 0.25mm nozzle, where the resistance is most pronounced. I have a V6 hotend and the 0.25mm nozzle is very problematic for clogging, but I need it for printing miniatures with very fine details for a model railway.
18:16 I don’t think so, as it’s not linear, because heat dissipation increases with temperature (mainly radiative dissipation, which is significant at these temperatures). In fact, according to my calculations, assuming a 16 cm^2 surface area and emissivity of 0.9, at 480°C there’s about 25W dissipated by radiation alone. So it should reach about 540°C with a 40W heater. Still quite a lot, though.
I don't think the speed is so much the headline feature, it's the ease of use! I still hate swapping nozzles, even when I know what to do. This makes it super easy, bit of end g-code to always retract the filament and done. Besides that, no need to torque the nozzle preventing leaks.... yes please. :)
Actually on a hemera the heatbreak comes quite close to the gears. So I am not sure retraction at the endcode will help - at least not if using PETG. Stringing will still be in the heatbreak part. Unscrewing will work, but screwing new nozzle in the strings get in the way. But still a good idea. With a fast press and retract you might reduce strings (it is done for MMU2 for that reason) and on printers with longer distance between gears and begin of heatbreak (like the mk3s) this might work.
For me, that makes the nozzle change a lot more fool-proof. As someone who's damaged a thermistor, and accidentally untightened the heater block, it's fiddly to get it right. For the casual user that only swaps nozzles once or twice a year, it's great. I definitely do wish that they opened up the nozzle for innovation though. Let someone else figure out the exotic nozzles.
Excellent video, you've set a new standard for hotend reviews imo. But I think the statement of "volcano level meltage" is not directly indicated by the data you showed. You stopped the test at 15mm3/s. I think you should have extended your test data up to 25mm3/s or the typical regime where one needs to use a volcano. The reduced back pressure could indicate an improvement in major/minor losses and not necessarily better melt performance aka reduced viscosity.
the fact is that 15mm3/s is the limit for this hotend. it's exactly what you said...people don't need volcanos for 15mm3/s :). Not to mention that the price for the Revo is about the same as a Rapido which still has the ceramic heater, fast change nozzle + hard point mounting and insane volumetric rates (HF or UHF). i'm doing ~40mm3/s on the HF with a CHF 0.6 nozzle and it's going like butter.
One idea I had with the revo is you could theoretically made an automatic nozzle changer so you can use large nozzles and small nozzles in the same print so you can speed up prints while keeping detail. This way you have some of the benefits of a tool changer without spending as much.
Variable layer height is way better than nozzle change for this purpose IMO. Maybe if you're going between .25 and .8, but aside from those extremes...I don't think so.
I mean the whole reason I did't get the hemera in the revo version was the lack of anything beside the stock heater and thermistor, and non-abrasive nozzles
E3D mentioned that the silicone rings were selected to be easy for color blind people, but I am moderately red/green colorblind. And I would not trust my eyes to tell the red and green rings apart. Of all the colors in the world they had to pick the worst two ones.
What I've included in the video is based on what some online red/green color blindness simulators were showing. If does indeed look like they'd appear as just slightly different tones of grey.
I was very tempted to go with Revo but as you mentioned in the video, I went 0.6mm nozzle and never looked back since, i do wanna get a Obsidxian or nozzle x at 0.6mm so in theory id never need to change the nozzle again
@@squishybrain hands down worth it, can save hours on a print versus 0.4mm and there's minimal detail difference. Printing at 0.4mm with 0.6mm can crank bigger prints out
I was quite excited about the Revo, but I'm not convinced now. In the discord channel it was said that it would heat up faster than a standard V6 but it seems that was misleading due to the thermistor placement. With the existing ecosystem a 65W heater is available but there appears to be no plans for a high power Revo heater which means I'd be stuck with a hotend that heats up far slower than my toolchanger's heat bed. Thinking about it the only real selling point for me is the physically protected thermistor, but for the cost of a few spare thermistor I'm really not seeing the point. The sock doesn't even cover the underside of the nozzle.
I wonder if E3D could come up with a way to swap out old worn Revo nozzles and recycle the heartbreak and threaded portion, or part of it at least. Kind of like the core exchange on car batteries here in the States.
Finally some normal and objective talk about that hype hotend... I totally see beneficial use over V6 or V6 clones but me, who uses Mosquito... nah... but still... nice video m8! Kudos!
I believe a new hotend might be the fix to resurrect my 3D printer. And these showed up on your channel a while ago, so I thought about going with E3D for getting something good. Will wait for your judgement tho - so it being a long and in depth video is always great.
What holds me back on getting into the Revo is the fact that Prusa announced something similar yet different. I'm still wondering whether it will be adopted by other vendors or whether it will become something that is only sold by E3D.
Even though I've personally switched exclusively to resin, I still appreciate these wonderfully in-depth reviews just so I can keep up-to-date with new tools and techniques. One of the things that pushed me towards resin over FDM was having to completely disassemble and re-engineer the print head system on my delta when trying to upgrade to a mosquito once upon a time, when you realize the shortcomings of the factory design in utilizing a feature of an old head variant to mount the hot end to the effector plate that severely limits what you can run. One of my regrets that I should have gone to an x-y core printer over the delta.
Great video. A Quick release would be much more welcome. You could snip the filament and just drag the entire thing with gloves even hot. Than just do a cold pull outside of the printer.
The Prometheus hot end is also a closed system by design though maybe not by patent. In any case, they haven't been copied. They do seem to be unavailable at the moment however.
Yeah. Often forgotten rule about knockoffs. Is that the effort has to be worth it for it them happen. If you create something that has very tight requirements that you can't really cut corners with, the likelihood of getting imitated takes a nose-dive. Whereas something looser has copies coming out the woodwork. So while "simple" designs like your V6 hotends/nozzles or your Prusa i3s got knockoffs up the wazoo. More delicate/complex items like Mosquito or the Prusa Mini get little to no competition. Fairly confident the e3d revo wouldn't see many knockoffs either.
This looks like a fun upgrade. I think the only snafu on my uses is making sure I re-adjust the BL Touch distance to the nozzle and adjust the z offset again
I understand all this about how fast is it to change a nozzle argument. What I care about is not having to hot tighten a hotend. I also wish they would make a PT1000 temp sensor version. I would be the first inline to buy one.
I think I will get one for my Prusa Mini, the lower extrusion force sounds like a win for the Bowden setup it has and jumping from printing miniatures and models to large simple designs, jumping from 0.25 to 0.6 sounds great to me. Just have to wait for my preferred NA supplier to get them back in stock. In firearms there is a patented standard called M-Lock that has been widely adopted and IIRC its licensed freely as long as the manufacturer is able to keep to the quality requirements. Early days for the Revo so we will have to wait and see how things shake out.
I’ve gotten into 3d printing this past year…… i had seen this new revo…… and was on the fence….. I never actually change too many nozzel sizes…. So not the most important thing for me right now. Thank you for the input
Thanks for the in-depth testing. I am seeing lots of people reporting clogging problems with the Revo Micro when used on the Prusa Mini with the E3D small fan and PLA. I believe it is due to the firmware PWM reduction of fan speed combined with the small E3D fan resulting in heat creep. E3D is telling people to make fan changes if they think that is a problem, which seems a little dodgy. If you have the chance, please test the performance of the Revo Micro and its apparent susceptibility to heat creep. Reports also claim that the problem is solved by using a non-E3D carriage modification that allows use of the stock fan which moves much more air. It is also possible to tie the E3D fan directly to ground, avoiding the PWM regulation, but it is said to be quite noisy.
i have a simple socket wrapped in a bit of kapton tape and heatshrink i use to change nozzles in my old v6 clone. hot nozzle removed with a cold socket = no problem at all removing and replacing without even cooling down. literally its a 60 second job, and doing it hot means leaks arent really an issue.
there are quite some parts i modelled under the assumption of a 0.4 mm Nozzle so with 0.85 mm wall thickness Still with modern Hotends printing 0.85 with a 0.6mm nozzle should be ok. Strange enough - i have seen nozzlebreaks over 5 years ago on aliexpress (not well made, with a very poor heatbreak). I am really happy you spoke about the growing number of patents!
I keep having the silicone sock on my REVO dry out and crack/crumble. Become brittle. I told E3D about this issue. I don't know if they arte going to look into the issue. I find the REVO flow is very good. A little to good at least with the .8mm nozzle.
Seeing this video some time ago I decided to get a Revo Voron edition with the Obsidian to get around the disadvantages of my Voron2.4 LGX/DragonHF. I must say I wasn't disappointed. I'm running the 0.6er nozzle and wonder if getting another nozzle with 0.15mm to print very small objects would be worth a try.
You basically hit on most of my gripes with the Revo. E3D has pretty much doomed the ecosystem around it to be practically non-existant compared to most other common systems on the market. And because of how overly broad patents on way too basic principles get granted, in so doing, IMO basically fired a double round of birdshot into the back of the project and engineering community who birthed them. And for what? This Revo system as it stands, performs ok, but certainly not anything substantial that you can't already get for a similar price, but without the sacrifices and hard limitations of Revo. With how constrained this system is, I don't really see them making huge OEM sales either, much less retail/aftermarket. This feels like an all-round bad move for a company that has up til now worked hard and smart to tender good graces and standing in the community, done as a very consequential cash-grab that won't sell anywhere near as many units as they hoped for.
On the other hand though, I do understand the value of having things open etc., but if in the end noone is making well enough money on it anymore, they will simply seize operations. Which results in… me not having some nice E3D products anymore. Does that help me as a consumer? I think there should be a bit of a middle-ground.
Thanks again to Private Internet Access for sponsoring the video! Check them out at www.privateinternetaccess.com/Toms3d
E3D's Revo ecosystem has its ups and downs - will you switch?
Maybe. My trademark infringing extruder and v6 hotend is still working fine for me so I'm not sure it's worth the money and time to upgrade.
Yes, but Whats with the Prusa cables?
Which one would you reccomend for a Prusa Mini?
I really like the idea of the Revo and will consider switching when hardened nozzles are available. I'm currently running a volcano with a hardened 0.4mm nozzle and a copper heat block.
On the other hand, why fix what is not broken? I might switch if/when my volcano starts having issues.
Can vouch for PIA! They're great.
There are people who have a custom end gcode so it retracts the filament out of the Revo after every print. That way you can always just swap nozzles :)
Yeah, I already do that so I can cold swap filaments in between prints.
A simple change once you realize the issue.
Actually I have a large retraction after cooling the filament a bit at the end, so that I can swap filaments with it cold, and clean the area a bit, kind like a cold-pull I guess ?
You can do this whether you have a Revo or not, works great on my rapido and on my dragon hf
@@runklestiltskin_2407 exactly, works with every hotend 😁
@@PeterTPhan I actually don't retract for the purpose of nozzle or filament changes at the end of a print. I am planning to do that though. Just got a Revo installen on my Voron v0.1
Hey Tom, thanks for taking the time to review our Revo ecosystem, it's a great informative video! In order to make nozzle changes as quick as possible we recommend removing filament from the nozzle as part of your Slicer's end gcode. This way you won't have to first heat up the nozzle to remove the filament, as this is already done. Thanks, Team E3D
That's a great idea! I'm waiting on mine to arrive, can't wait to convert all of my printers over to the new hot end. I switch between .4mm and .8mm nozzels waaay to often
Patents :(
What's the bore of this heatbreak element though? If it's ~1.95-2.0mm or more, following your recommendation is most likely gonna cause a jam for anyone using Capricorn tubing anywhere near the hotend/collet or extruder. If this is the case, you really should make that advisory caveat clear.
I was thinking it would be cool if they made a special "nozzle break" which could fit standard V6 nozzles. Then you could have the best of both worlds, quick change and the large ecosystem of different and replacable nozzles. Sort of a customisable nozzle break as it were. I wouldn't even mind if it was lower performance and more bulky than the standard nozzlebreaks; and the greater difficulty of hot tightening (although the nozzle may increase the length of the melting zone?), the modularity and cheaper replacable nozzles would be worth it for many people, and make Revo more palletable in the open source community
Also you only need to make one "special" nozzle break rather than all the different ones for the different nozzles. It would give options for higher cost but better ease of use and performance of the standard nozzlebreaks or swappable standard nozzles for advanced or money concious users.
When are you guys going to release hardened nozzles?
The speed of the nozzle change was furthest from my mind. But not having to hot tighten everything is a game changer for me. I hate torquing the hot nozzles to keep them from leaking.
A torque wrench designed for nozzles makes changing nozzles consistent and pretty much idiot-proof.
@@haysoos123 How much are accurate ones? $30ish yeah? That’s more than the price difference between an E3D V6 and an E3D Revo 6. If you’ve got a single machine and obliterate your V6, might as well grab a Revo 6.
I think the speed of changes is not an actual concern, but the ease is. Not having to deal with having it leak will be an enormous advantage.
So much this! No matter how careful I am, I'm always terrified of either breaking my heatbreak or failing to tighten the nozzle enough to avoid leaks. Doing away with that union is magic.
We have several printers with V6 at work, trying to dig out the hot end after someone printed a 18h petg tennis ball on it without breaking the termistor or heat cartridge cables is a challenge...
This!
Agree 👍 screwing back a nozzle is always a flight on sight an leaves you alone with the question if the nozzle really has contact with the tube screwed from above 😞
This is my biggest issue with the V6 especially when using hardened nozzles.
The more walled off ecosystem/ closed source-ness of recent things including this is saddening, but it is great to see creators like you keep “carrying the torch”.
With creators like you advocating for you we can keep the flame alive!
Agreed. This is the reason I won't be considering Revo. It's just not going to have the flexibility that an open ecosystem has, and £19 per nozzle is just hilarious, no chance.
As 3D printing gains more popularity, things like this are bound to happen. The best we can do is not purchase these products and speak out against it. This goes against the nature of the 3D printing community and we should not tolerate it tainting this space. Next thing you know we'll have hot ends and extruders that only work with certain filaments or slicers. That's not the world I want
@@CandidProle But we want companies to keep creating new stuff, spending all the time ans money on r&d only to get cloned by aliexpress shops so they can undercut the creator and run with the money. The amount of engineering that went into this is pretty insane and I completely understand why they took out a patent looking at the state of the v6 market
@@MrBoydheeresThe amount of engineering that went into this is not insane and is built off the back of other technologies that already exist. Patents and copyrights do nothing but stifle innovation and artificially raise prices.
To be fair patents never stopped chinese manufacturers. I'm expecting to see clones on aliexpress in a couple of months for quarter the price
first ;.; EDIT: real comment lol, the lack of a hex to use a socket for safe swapping while hot is a huge oversight on e3d's part IMO. The Cetus nozzles (which have been in production since 2016) are quite similar in their integrated design, but have a small hex behind the silicon sock allowing for much safer nozzle changes. I'm no patent lawyer but that'll be an interesting case to fight.
first german 😉
They say you should always wait till its under 50°C before you change it, so that shouldn't be a problem.
@@95NIFE gotta do a filament withdraw then, so it'll be hot and then you have to wait till it cools to a safe temp. Time waste.
Yes! Also ideas like an automated nozzle changer become way harder like this. It seems to me the aggressive cost saving e3d is so proud of on Revo has some downsides after all. Still, an ERCF that also switches to the optimal nozzle while changing the filament would be super awesome!
I can definitely see a workflow where printers are left without a filament inside, so that you can change nozzle, load filament, print, unload (loading and unloading can be done automatically in gcode)
I’ll be sticking with V6. The open standards combined with cheaper replacement for nozzles is important.
Same. I got into 3D printing on the promise of open hardware, E3D reversing their 2017 promise "to move more towards fully open source design." ("After all, we're confident that what makes an E3D product truly worthwhile is more than just its schematics." *ahem*). I mean, it's their choice how they want to do business, but this isn't what _I,_ personally, signed up for.
I have to say, the nozzle being locked down is a major deterrent to buying into the ecosystem.
Also, they may have a very hard time actually defending design patents surrounding this nozzle, as the thread and shape of the "cold" end are functional interfaces. Only the design of the silicon sock may have some merit, but who cares if that end is round or hexagonal...
' design patents ' ' as the thread and shape of the "cold" end are functional interfaces.' Exactly. Amazing how many people do not really understand that design patents fail where the design is a consequence of function, that requires a unique enough solution to get a utility patent.
Design is like a Nike swoosh, it doesn't stop someone else from making a shoe the same size and shape, only in putting the design swoosh on it..
Instead of a circular end make it an octagon, clearly recognizable as a different design..
Super easy, barely an inconvenience, gotta love Ryan George
as soon as i heard it, i went straight to the comments to see how many others got it
Revo nozzles are tight..
When the characters say the thing, that's tight.
Wow wow wow..... Wow
Just being able to not have to heat tighten to prevent leaks is enough for me to want one.
Reading this as I'm waiting for round 3 of fighting a Volcano nozzle leak. Think the next thing I'll need to warm up is my debit card...
@@hostinggeek I did buy one and its been good ... i dont have to many prints with it but the few ive done has been fine. Not had to "hot swap" a nozzle yet...
9:38 Nevermind the relative values here, I would have never guessed that it can take more than "0.5kg" (~5N) of force to extrude PLA at relatively standard settings! Would have guessed maybe 50-100g, a Bowden setup being able to deliver >1kg of force along a PTFE tube feels really surprising and counterintuitive
14:04 Might be nice to link that video in the description
17:54 "quick geometric approximation" *overlays graph of total confirmed covid cases* xD Out of all the ways to do extrapolation badly, this is the best worst
This translates to my experiece when using shitty heater blocks. Why cheap printers with weak extruders cause problems. Investment in a decent copper block and tuning temps is the only way to go.
A 1A pancake motor in a BMG or similar extruder can absolutely destroy bowden tubes. Even the short length in a direct drive.
Sensible tuning is work out the peak flow from die stress (when your prints warp like crazy, print a vase mode test with lots of straight lines and smooth curves and crank the speed up until it screws itself up into a ball), and then drop extruder current so you can achieve that flow but not much more.
If you have some kind of MMU, you might be able to add some custom gcode to up the stepper current during a filament change, as PrusaSlicer style ramming is quite violent.
9:20 To those saying he should be using load cells, many modern digital kitchen scales use load cells... This way, Tom doesn't have to rig up an amp and a micro to figure out the applied force.
Long time viewer, first time commenter:
Thomas thank you so much for mentioning Color Vision Deficiency in this review. I'm a strong deutan and these issues really affect me but I never hear them discussed. Well done!
Paused the video at 5:39 to mention this, now back to watching.
Thanks for the thorough review. I look forward to using the Revo system eventually - but I’m not in a big hurry. For me, it is less about the reduced _time_ to change nozzles, but instead the _ease_ of changing nozzles. No more risk of tearing out tiny thermistor wires. No more burning of fingers. No more HEATER ERROR when you grab the heat block with pliers and it sucks the heat out, and the heater can’t keep up. No more leaks because I didn’t torque it enough since I was afraid of bending the heatbreak, etc. I can imagine even changing nozzles during a single print - going to 0.20 nozzle to get fine text to show up properly at the top of a print, for example.
Have you tried a dedicated nozzle torque wrench? They are extremely inexpensive.
@@saf3ty3rd Yep. I have one. It helps, and of course, practice makes it easier over time. But -- still more involved than I'd like.
@@saf3ty3rd They are, but still, using a torque wrench and all risks of damage, compared to just hand tightening a nozzle is day and night.
E3D is the Apple of manufacturers. I'm glad you called them out on that.
I've read that Dragon/Mosquito heatbreaks have issues with abrasive filaments. Apparently the thin connecting tube likes to wear out and break after some time. I wonder what the nozzle/heatbreak of Revo will look like in it's hardened steel version. If thin metal tube will be the same as in brass version it might face the same issue as Dragon - just in Revo case it will fall down along with heater.
The V6 heatbreak can wear out at the neck also causing the same failure.
The heater block is clipped on with the spring. It won't fall down if the heatbreak fails.
I want to make my own version of this out of a tianglelabs chc pro with CNC Stephan's custom volcano cht nozzle. Im drooling over the possibilities of the copper wires in the filament path also heating up, transferring even more heat into the filament 😍
I was thinking the same. What would be cool is a "mixing nozzle" like geometry used on epoxy tubes that is designed specifically so that every bit of what flows through makes maximum contact.
If you have the Prusa eject filament after each print then there's less of an issue with quick change. Anybody with an MMU2 will have this happen automatically for them, so it really is quick change.
The last thing I would do is moving from an open design to a closed one.
Quick nozzle swapping isn't anywhere on my priority list as I made my hotends swappable; that takes less time than just unscrewing a revo nozzle and can be done without burning your hands even when the hotend is hot.
To avoid swapping nozzles I always had “cold swap” V6 dangling on the side preloaded with 2nd most common nozzle size I use. Might seem pricey but we’ll worth it.
I do this, I have 3 or 4 voron (afterburner/stealthburner/ABBN) toolheads between two printers, a 0.4 with a bimetallic heatbreak, a high temp capable 0.4, a 0.6 CHT in a V6 clone with a genuine heatbreak, and a spare/experimental clone v6
Dang you should have included a clip of you creating those cutouts. They look insanely cool.
Great Test Thomas, creative approach to how you done it. My Revo present toself is on the way :-)
Excellent review. Love the focus on real-world practicality. I would love to see e3d eventually offer first-party cooling duct reference designs for all three (Hermera, Micro and Groovemount) packages. It's so hard to find good ducts on thingiverse etc, and its really not easy to design one yourself either. Having a standard, first-party, reference design from e3d with convenient nozzle access and verifiably engineered fluid dynamics would be hugely helpful.
Yes, that and a wire guide! Like, cut a channel in the hemera somewhere to route my wires from the hot end or a tab on the heat sink I can attach them to.
This is the first product I've ever pre ordered in my life and I'm stoked for it! I'm contemplating making a compact portable printer that I can take places and print parts on the spot. The variation of nozzle sizes and future hardened versions will make it easier to take what I need and have a versatile machine.
- I bet it's gonna be difficult to replace the original V6 for the new Revo.
- Actually, super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Thank you for your honest review. As someone relatively new to the Prusa Mk3S+, I am fine with the stock extruder. Also thanks for the tip about the 0.6 nozzle. I will definitely try that!
The problem with inserted Filament at 3:40 is really interesting, because I've not thought of that problem due to the MMU2 removing Filament anyway
Thomas making a Ryan George reference. That is two great tastes that taste great together, together again for the first time. Screen Pitch quotes are tight.
I've been using 0.6 as standard for over a year. There's practically nothing I can do with a .4 that the .6 can't do just as nicely and faster. I installed it for some big parts and never took it out, just dialed down width and height when I needed the extra detail, which is surprisingly rare.
how much does it actually differ in time? just curious
Just woke up today to a huge blob of plastic around my V6... thermistor cables broken and so on. Not first time but this time I didnt have spare thermistor on hand. Decided to order Revo, I hope it really is more robust and maybe now I finally try 0.6 nozzle :) Thanks for your review.
Honestly I would already have one if it wasn't for the patents. It just feels wrong to me. A hobby for geeks and tinkerers, that got so big because everything was open and people wanted to improve everything that came out, is getting closed off by patents that don't allow for the amazing things that got the hobby to where it is.
Don't worry, once the people have done the majority of heavy lifting of developing these machines, the smartarses are going to come in and patent key parts that would block the further development for next 25 years. See you in 2050 when the next wave of development will kick in.
Understand the feeling of not liking patents in an open source design community, but having Chinese companies ripping off your design and undercutting you on price isn't in the spirit either. Parasitic business practices like this essentially suck money away from innovators, just the world we live in, and given how universally reproduced the titan and v6 were I don't blame them for trying to fight back. If E3D didnt have to worry about this, I'm sure they wouldnt have bothered to patent.
@@TheMastaRob Everyone should do what they are good at and everyone should be paid only when they are doing that thing. E3d isn't a massive manufacturer to my knowledge, it hasn't got bit factories and optimised supply chain behind them.
I think E3d - should run kickstarter campaigns and decouple innovation funds from manufacturing.
And yes I think those Chinese companies that optimise things such that this innovation becomes accessible are super important and not a parasites in the slightest. Without them we wouldn't have the very community we enjoy.
But when a company uses the work of millions of those engineers and hobbyists and then get a patent on a crucial aspect blocking other's innovation that's parasiting. It is not that they are making their 100bucks selling 5g of brass. It is that locking the patent they are blocking anyone else making those in ruby, steel, vanadium, copper, adjusting shapes, improving manufacturability. And it is not just a "sentiment" that is parasiting.
You can't just patent a parts of otherwise open source community, and then sit there for 25 years doing f-k all and skimming the benefits from other's work.
Imagine some smart arse getting a sole ownershop of the door knob of your house. You can have it in brass only, and you have to pay every time you touch it. We will also fight tooth and nail anyone who makes the doorknobs even remotely resembling ours. You built and own the house but we own the key...
@@makerbeelab5546 Totally disagree. I know a lot of people dislike patents, because they can and regularly are abused, which I understand. But in this case, the term parasitic is accurate. When a company spends money to create a new product, then the ultimate price of the product has these costs built in. If another company then copy, then can sell cheaper not just because they have better supply lines, or cheaper labour, but because they don't have to recoup cost. The company that is copying, are not on an even playing field, they have a competitive advantage by being unethical. Which, in turn, disincentives the original company from spending money on innovation. Parasitic means to benefit self, while damaging the host, while is exactly what such activities do. Yes, actual hobbyists can access products cheaper when they are copies - and I understand people like cheap stuff, but that doesnt make it ethical. It actively damages innovation, of the sort that the average person with a 3d printer simply cannot do, because you need machining shops with precision equipment and the skills to use it. And of course, if all the people buying knockoff instead bought from the original designer, they'd be able to optimise and reduce their own costs on volume (plus keeping money circulating in the Western nation, having a wider positive impact on local wealth).
Re your door knob analogy, any rules can be stretched to be unreasonable, sorry but it means nothing. We're not talking about unethical doorknob designers, we're talking about E3D having to compete with Chinese manufacturers who will copy anything they do at the drop of a hat. Again, if this wasnt the very specific situation, I doubt they'd have patented. And you are assuming they're going to try and lock everyone else out of their walled garden, which we simply don't know right now. Yes, all design and innovation is built on the work that comes before, that's how progress works, nothing is even invented in a vacuum. Call patenting parasitic if you like, I disagree, but you know how many companies have gone bankrupt because their IP was copied and undercut? Countless.
Following up on this even though I've already commented - you mentioned 0.6mm nozzles being able to do basically everything you need toward the end of this video. Having freedom to quickly choose between slicer profiles and nozzles (I made a 2 minute nozzle swap gcode routine that I run each time), I've found I'm basically entirely swapped over to 0.6mm for my parts these days. If I'm doing anything that requires tight tolerances, I'll drop to 0.4, and if I'm in a rush it's great to have 0.8 at the ready, but for the random items I tend to need, 0.6 has been fantastic and has saved me hours. Great call!
Swapped to revo over the weekend on my mk2s and it's like having a brand new machine. I've broken thermistor cables, burned myself, and fused nozzles permanently onto my socket sets trying to remove V6 nozzles on many occasions, and I'm not even a clumsy person with such things in most cases.
Revo is the first product that's made me COMFORTABLE with swapping my nozzle on a regular basis, and it's been downright empowering. Absolutely loving it.
Thanks for all the info. For me, the main advantage would be that I can quickly change between .4 and .8 mm nozzles, which I do a lot actually. But at 20 bucks a pop, I can have that with CHT nozzles and still be free to use all of the standard V6 stuff.
Thank you very much for the awesome review, learned a lot and your final conclusion rings true for myself too, the 0.6 CHT nozzle from Bondtech will be good enough for 99% of my prints.
One of the great things about 3D printers, compare to other maker devices, is the open nature. Supporting a proprietary replacement of a well working open product would make little sense for me. Thank you for laying out the advantages and disadvantages.
whoaaa new vid from Thomas. Love you're videos dude. they're always full of great content that even I, who don't really keep up with the latest, find helpful and often times also entertaining
Still waiting for them to start shipping it to people who preordered on the first day. Shops all over the world are getting them, but not the fans of E3D who prepaid. I'm disappointed by that.
Apparently they'll start shipping on the 16th.
I agree Greg. E3D choosing to ship to resellers before pre-order customers is a failure on their part to recognize and appreciate their customers.
@@Tinkerz there’s no confusion. The issue at hand is people that paid E3D many weeks ago might not get their unit before someone who preorders a unit from a random reseller tomorrow. Specifically my issue is that E3D never made this multi-source rollout known to anyone. Until about a week ago the only place to preorder Revo was from E3D directly. If they can support every single pre order they’ve gotten thus far until launch day with their stock then great. If they can’t though and instead a bunch of units were shipped to resellers then I think that’s a pretty poor handling of this situation. In general their lack of open and transparent communication on all of this is my biggest gripe.
I'd be interested in seeing a video on the Trianglelab CHC ceramic heater cores that are compatible with the V6 ecosystem. I just got one, but it'll be a while until it gets here and I get to play with it.
Excellent analysis, always appreciate how deep you dive into the technical details!
I get the patents, however I really hope they would be willing to allow licensing of their designs (at a reasonable price) which would help protect their design investment but also allow for the range of nozzles etc to be enhanced.
Agreed, to me it would keep the spirit alive if they are flexible in allowing manufacturers who add value to design and capabilities in on the licensing. I don't actually have such a problem with the patenting in itself, as many people seem to do - designing new products is hard, and having Chinese companies just copying everything you've done at a lower price isn't in the spirit of open source either. It's actively parasitic, since they don't have to pay the design costs.
I think they are screwing themselves here, month later still no hardened nozzle is a deal breaker for me. If it was open source, there would have been multiple hardened nozzles already and I would have bought into the ecosystem
I would like a Upgrade Guide for the Revo six
Great look at this Tom. So the way I am seeing it is "If you are in the market for a new/replacement hot-end, then Revo is a good way to go- If there is nothing wrong with your existing hot-end, maybe wait for the eco-system to develop a bit more before jumping onboard."
Its an interesting advancement, but i think i'll stick to my DD and volcano till they open their 3rd party market options. Stranglehold patents on new technologies like this is why we havent been allowed to even think about active heated chambers with the board on the outside until a year or so ago. I hope E3D changes their patent policy, but im not holding my breath for aftermarket support
I preordered this because I failed at a nozzle change on my V6 and ended up buying a whole new hot end due to leaking. I am inexperienced and it seems like I would get the most out of it.
Love 4K, it is even possible to see a grooves in rod at X axis.
Es ist echt krass, ich glaube jeder Deutscher hat einen Deutschen-Radar, mit dem er erkennt, dass ihm gegenüber auch ein Deutscher sitzt. Klar, bei dem Namen ist es nicht allzu schwer, aber trotzdem. Respekt dafür, dass du so flüssig und akzentfrei englisch sprechen kannst und danke für den guten Content!
"akzentfrei" oh komm jetzt wie tief in den Arshc willst du ihn denn noch kriechen.
Will be interesting to see how Prusa's Nextruder compares to this. Was kind of hoping to see the Revo system implemented in the XL.
I have broken the wires on my v6 heater cartridge several times and just dont change nozzles anymore. I am very excited for the ease of use aspect of it.
Nice sectioning work Tom! Not everyone understands to pot parts to get great cross sections.
And to degas the resin properly! Looked great. I want some as desk toys.
I am probably alone here but I have pulled 3 thermistor wires out by accident this year. This is a good enough reason for me to pick this up. I am probably just unlucky but doing the swaps hot with tools is a real pain.
part of me is somewhat sad that a lot of the cool tech are not open source now
(a lot of high end printer design is open source, but I'm talking more about part/part designs)
at the same time i kind of also see why they would need to do it, after all, you can't really get paid via exposure, being the grandfather of all major 3D printer hotend is one thing, making profit is another, can't really fight mass scale production game when you also need to do RnD and actually want to do QC
but i think there's still the idea though, of a more elegant hotend system that are not just slapping parts to a block of aluminum, if someone else would make a new standard to move on from v6, that'd be cool but not really having my hopes up
Tom: Mentions the fact that it may be hard to tell the nozzles apart if colorblind.
Also Tom: Uses the most-likely-confused colors for every graph.
My colorblindness is minor and I could tell them apart, but shame on you.
Very good research! Thanks for the video!
Excellent review!
also, i really liked the discussion about the implications of the patent. Very nicely done, without imposing an opinion, just raising questions.
And as your conclusion said, perhaps i just need to slap a 0.6 nozzle to my MK2.5 to have faster prints and be happy :)
Then there is me with my cheap $95 RepRapGuru i3 printer I snagged off eBay brand new in box. I must have somewhat lucked out as after tweaking a few things it works great! Not fast but consistent prints in PLA & PLA+. I have only changed my nozzle & heater block with a micro-swiss one. But thanks for the great in-depth video.
I'd have loved to hear the vol flow rate you're getting from Revo. I'm wondering how it compares to a by with a CHT nozzle or compact highflow hotend like mosquito or phaetus dragon.
Depends on how hard your extruder is able to push without slipping - the graphs to deduct flowrate from that are all included in the video.
It doesn't compare.
@@MadeWithLayers yep, I can do some maths and guess, but my extruders can inflate a PTFE tube like a balloon of there's a blockage, and I get die shrink issues well before the extruder skips.
I think I'm the most excited for the better heat output, and slapping one in my Voron.
I think gaining a reduction of extrusion force is important as high force plus compliance, even with direct extruders gives rise to oozing and more visible z seams.
Thank you, great review, but I miss the resistance testing of the extruded filament with a 0.25mm nozzle, where the resistance is most pronounced. I have a V6 hotend and the 0.25mm nozzle is very problematic for clogging, but I need it for printing miniatures with very fine details for a model railway.
Great! But you forgot to touch on how silent the fan is. They state it is ultra quiet
Great in depth vid Tom!! Had to be tons of prep time for this one that we never see. Very Well Done!!
Thanks for your review, I was considering the Revo , although I am now going to hold off getting it, V6 is good enough for me at the moment.
18:16 I don’t think so, as it’s not linear, because heat dissipation increases with temperature (mainly radiative dissipation, which is significant at these temperatures). In fact, according to my calculations, assuming a 16 cm^2 surface area and emissivity of 0.9, at 480°C there’s about 25W dissipated by radiation alone. So it should reach about 540°C with a 40W heater. Still quite a lot, though.
I don't think the speed is so much the headline feature, it's the ease of use! I still hate swapping nozzles, even when I know what to do. This makes it super easy, bit of end g-code to always retract the filament and done. Besides that, no need to torque the nozzle preventing leaks.... yes please. :)
Actually on a hemera the heatbreak comes quite close to the gears. So I am not sure retraction at the endcode will help - at least not if using PETG. Stringing will still be in the heatbreak part. Unscrewing will work, but screwing new nozzle in the strings get in the way.
But still a good idea. With a fast press and retract you might reduce strings (it is done for MMU2 for that reason) and on printers with longer distance between gears and begin of heatbreak (like the mk3s) this might work.
For me, that makes the nozzle change a lot more fool-proof. As someone who's damaged a thermistor, and accidentally untightened the heater block, it's fiddly to get it right. For the casual user that only swaps nozzles once or twice a year, it's great. I definitely do wish that they opened up the nozzle for innovation though. Let someone else figure out the exotic nozzles.
Excellent video, you've set a new standard for hotend reviews imo. But I think the statement of "volcano level meltage" is not directly indicated by the data you showed. You stopped the test at 15mm3/s. I think you should have extended your test data up to 25mm3/s or the typical regime where one needs to use a volcano. The reduced back pressure could indicate an improvement in major/minor losses and not necessarily better melt performance aka reduced viscosity.
the fact is that 15mm3/s is the limit for this hotend. it's exactly what you said...people don't need volcanos for 15mm3/s :). Not to mention that the price for the Revo is about the same as a Rapido which still has the ceramic heater, fast change nozzle + hard point mounting and insane volumetric rates (HF or UHF). i'm doing ~40mm3/s on the HF with a CHF 0.6 nozzle and it's going like butter.
One idea I had with the revo is you could theoretically made an automatic nozzle changer so you can use large nozzles and small nozzles in the same print so you can speed up prints while keeping detail. This way you have some of the benefits of a tool changer without spending as much.
Variable layer height is way better than nozzle change for this purpose IMO. Maybe if you're going between .25 and .8, but aside from those extremes...I don't think so.
I mean the whole reason I did't get the hemera in the revo version was the lack of anything beside the stock heater and thermistor, and non-abrasive nozzles
E3D mentioned that the silicone rings were selected to be easy for color blind people, but I am moderately red/green colorblind. And I would not trust my eyes to tell the red and green rings apart. Of all the colors in the world they had to pick the worst two ones.
What I've included in the video is based on what some online red/green color blindness simulators were showing. If does indeed look like they'd appear as just slightly different tones of grey.
Nero 3D runs a 5 mm retract at end of prints and seams to have great results for quick cold swaps
I was very tempted to go with Revo but as you mentioned in the video, I went 0.6mm nozzle and never looked back since, i do wanna get a Obsidxian or nozzle x at 0.6mm so in theory id never need to change the nozzle again
Did you have to make any changes to your printing profile to get it to work with the 0.6 nozzle?
@@squishybrain none at all, prusa slicer has 0.6mm and other sizes premade which work great
@@KikkawaRyu Wow! That's great. Time to order some 0.6mm nozzles.
@@squishybrain hands down worth it, can save hours on a print versus 0.4mm and there's minimal detail difference. Printing at 0.4mm with 0.6mm can crank bigger prints out
16:50 - Good to see safety first, Tom. 😎👍
The biggest Chang I got was the overhangs. I used this for like 8 month now and the overhangs are so much better then on genuine v6 nozzles.
I was quite excited about the Revo, but I'm not convinced now. In the discord channel it was said that it would heat up faster than a standard V6 but it seems that was misleading due to the thermistor placement. With the existing ecosystem a 65W heater is available but there appears to be no plans for a high power Revo heater which means I'd be stuck with a hotend that heats up far slower than my toolchanger's heat bed. Thinking about it the only real selling point for me is the physically protected thermistor, but for the cost of a few spare thermistor I'm really not seeing the point. The sock doesn't even cover the underside of the nozzle.
I wonder if E3D could come up with a way to swap out old worn Revo nozzles and recycle the heartbreak and threaded portion, or part of it at least. Kind of like the core exchange on car batteries here in the States.
Finally some normal and objective talk about that hype hotend... I totally see beneficial use over V6 or V6 clones but me, who uses Mosquito... nah... but still... nice video m8! Kudos!
That push rig is pretty smart
I believe a new hotend might be the fix to resurrect my 3D printer. And these showed up on your channel a while ago, so I thought about going with E3D for getting something good. Will wait for your judgement tho - so it being a long and in depth video is always great.
You always bring a new way of thinking about things. Thanks Tom!
there are 70W heating cartridges for the v6
What holds me back on getting into the Revo is the fact that Prusa announced something similar yet different. I'm still wondering whether it will be adopted by other vendors or whether it will become something that is only sold by E3D.
A very detailed review, shame they didn't opt to keep it open source though.
Even though I've personally switched exclusively to resin, I still appreciate these wonderfully in-depth reviews just so I can keep up-to-date with new tools and techniques. One of the things that pushed me towards resin over FDM was having to completely disassemble and re-engineer the print head system on my delta when trying to upgrade to a mosquito once upon a time, when you realize the shortcomings of the factory design in utilizing a feature of an old head variant to mount the hot end to the effector plate that severely limits what you can run. One of my regrets that I should have gone to an x-y core printer over the delta.
Great video. A Quick release would be much more welcome. You could snip the filament and just drag the entire thing with gloves even hot. Than just do a cold pull outside of the printer.
The Prometheus hot end is also a closed system by design though maybe not by patent. In any case, they haven't been copied. They do seem to be unavailable at the moment however.
Yeah. Often forgotten rule about knockoffs. Is that the effort has to be worth it for it them happen. If you create something that has very tight requirements that you can't really cut corners with, the likelihood of getting imitated takes a nose-dive. Whereas something looser has copies coming out the woodwork.
So while "simple" designs like your V6 hotends/nozzles or your Prusa i3s got knockoffs up the wazoo. More delicate/complex items like Mosquito or the Prusa Mini get little to no competition. Fairly confident the e3d revo wouldn't see many knockoffs either.
This looks like a fun upgrade. I think the only snafu on my uses is making sure I re-adjust the BL Touch distance to the nozzle and adjust the z offset again
I understand all this about how fast is it to change a nozzle argument. What I care about is not having to hot tighten a hotend. I also wish they would make a PT1000 temp sensor version. I would be the first inline to buy one.
I think I will get one for my Prusa Mini, the lower extrusion force sounds like a win for the Bowden setup it has and jumping from printing miniatures and models to large simple designs, jumping from 0.25 to 0.6 sounds great to me. Just have to wait for my preferred NA supplier to get them back in stock. In firearms there is a patented standard called M-Lock that has been widely adopted and IIRC its licensed freely as long as the manufacturer is able to keep to the quality requirements. Early days for the Revo so we will have to wait and see how things shake out.
I’ve gotten into 3d printing this past year…… i had seen this new revo…… and was on the fence….. I never actually change too many nozzel sizes…. So not the most important thing for me right now. Thank you for the input
Thanks for the in-depth testing. I am seeing lots of people reporting clogging problems with the Revo Micro when used on the Prusa Mini with the E3D small fan and PLA. I believe it is due to the firmware PWM reduction of fan speed combined with the small E3D fan resulting in heat creep. E3D is telling people to make fan changes if they think that is a problem, which seems a little dodgy. If you have the chance, please test the performance of the Revo Micro and its apparent susceptibility to heat creep. Reports also claim that the problem is solved by using a non-E3D carriage modification that allows use of the stock fan which moves much more air. It is also possible to tie the E3D fan directly to ground, avoiding the PWM regulation, but it is said to be quite noisy.
ngl def chuckled at the pitch meeting nod lol
As usual, incredibly thorough and very interesting video. I’m gonna try this in my Voron!
There will probably be Revo conpatible fan shrouds that flip up once this gets adopted more widely
i have a simple socket wrapped in a bit of kapton tape and heatshrink i use to change nozzles in my old v6 clone.
hot nozzle removed with a cold socket = no problem at all removing and replacing without even cooling down. literally its a 60 second job, and doing it hot means leaks arent really an issue.
there are quite some parts i modelled under the assumption of a 0.4 mm Nozzle so with 0.85 mm wall thickness
Still with modern Hotends printing 0.85 with a 0.6mm nozzle should be ok.
Strange enough - i have seen nozzlebreaks over 5 years ago on aliexpress (not well made, with a very poor heatbreak).
I am really happy you spoke about the growing number of patents!
I keep having the silicone sock on my REVO dry out and crack/crumble. Become brittle. I told E3D about this issue. I don't know if they arte going to look into the issue. I find the REVO flow is very good. A little to good at least with the .8mm nozzle.
Seeing this video some time ago I decided to get a Revo Voron edition with the Obsidian to get around the disadvantages of my Voron2.4 LGX/DragonHF. I must say I wasn't disappointed.
I'm running the 0.6er nozzle and wonder if getting another nozzle with 0.15mm to print very small objects would be worth a try.
@@dangerous8333 'wasn't disappointed'might be not clear enough. Let me paraphrase it: I was disappointed - NOT.
You basically hit on most of my gripes with the Revo. E3D has pretty much doomed the ecosystem around it to be practically non-existant compared to most other common systems on the market. And because of how overly broad patents on way too basic principles get granted, in so doing, IMO basically fired a double round of birdshot into the back of the project and engineering community who birthed them. And for what? This Revo system as it stands, performs ok, but certainly not anything substantial that you can't already get for a similar price, but without the sacrifices and hard limitations of Revo. With how constrained this system is, I don't really see them making huge OEM sales either, much less retail/aftermarket.
This feels like an all-round bad move for a company that has up til now worked hard and smart to tender good graces and standing in the community, done as a very consequential cash-grab that won't sell anywhere near as many units as they hoped for.
On the other hand though, I do understand the value of having things open etc., but if in the end noone is making well enough money on it anymore, they will simply seize operations. Which results in… me not having some nice E3D products anymore. Does that help me as a consumer? I think there should be a bit of a middle-ground.
If this worked for the Prusa MK3 MMU I would most likely purchase it. The heat break on the MK3 MMU is unique so I don't it would work.