A Protestant pastor hated the Catholic Church so much he wrote a sermon, “36 reasons why the Catholic Church is Wrong.” Ten years later he converted to Catholic. When he told his 30y old son he was converting to Catholic, his son was so shocked he decided to read some catholic books to find out what made his dad take such a 180 turn. The son ended up becoming a Catholic Priest.
@@ultimateoriginalgod They mostly waste time debating idiot protestants who call in, and the problem with refuting them in that format is you're not going to rebut protestantism in a 3-5 min conversation with an imbecile with no theological knowledge. Better is to debate learned protestant scholars (if such a thing exists lol) or scholars in theology.
@@willl389 there are some very learned Protestant scholars. William Lane Craig, Greg Bahnsen, Ryan Reeves (I think he's Prot). Dr. Jordan Cooper (Lutheran) had a debate recently with Dr. Rob Koons (Catholic) on the topic of justification and I'd say Cooper won. I say this as a Catholic with a lot of admiration for Dr. Koons.
@@glof2553 I mean to me at least I can't get past the obvious blunder of protestants in asserting the legitimacy of biblical text, but then rejecting the church authority writ large in sola scriptura. So I find it difficult to respect their positions, but it is true Bahnsen and Craig at least from my listening are intelligent men.
I’m a Catholic catechumen and I’m fourteen, my parents are atheist and the first thing I looked into was Protestantism well soon I found out that wouldn’t work. Than Eastern Orthodoxy honestly I think I would be orthodox if my mom didn’t stop taking me to liturgy’s. Than last but not least Catholicism I loved that we have Apostolic Succession (which orthodox have too). Now at fourteen (I started my conversion at 12) I will be catholic on the Easter Vigil!
Your hormones are too high to make these decisions at 14. I'm 36, and I remember what being 14 was like. I WAS A MORON. A lot can change for you in 20 years. I wouldn't rush into religion too fast.
I joined the RCC 3 years ago. It really opened my eyes up to all that Christianity has to offer. The history of the church and the writings and works of the saints. I feel that I could start studying every day for the rest of my life and just scratch the surface. Jay seems to really study this and Trent does as well obviously . For a lay person, the church being the apostolic church is enough for me. If my family was ethnically orthodox at some point, maybe I would feel differently. I love the orthodox church, but I feel at home in the RCC. I listen to these videos, waiting to hear a reason to leave the church and I have yet to. Most of the arguments against the church are based on bad behavior by members of the church. That may be a good enough reason for Jay, but I feel like it is a better reason to stay and keep fighting for orthodoxy and reverence in the RCC. The separation of us on the earth saddens me, but I must focus on my salvation and my family's. I think we'll all be united soon enough.
Yes, there seems to be a lot of ad hominem arguments against the Papacy such as "well this Pope was evil...so...." These are really sophoromoric arguments. Everyone is aware that Scripture is full of issues from the start. They seem to want to place an unattainable standard and place it over history, and if anything is out of place, they say it isn't true. This is simply unrealistic. By the way, I'm currently looking at the Roman church and am becoming more convinced all the time, thanks to guys like Trent.
@@Kitiwake yess. But i doubt to do the same with orthodox knowing there is no way body of christ divorcing its part each other. Jerusalem x antioch, moscow x constantinople x ukrainian. Not so body of christ after all. Glad u brought that up.
I am a protestant that has been reading the Church Fathers and trying to understand Orthodoxy for the last year or so. I hadn't really given Catholicism a second look because of all the faults I perceived it had. Over the last week I have listened to more than a half dozen of Trent's rebuttals and have found him easy to understand and often very persuasive. I tried to listen to Dyer in the past but he comes across as so arrogant sometimes I can't stomach him. I still don't know if I'll eventually become Orthodox, Catholic or stay Protestant but I appreciate Trent's hard work and loving attitute in his videos (enough that I purchased the Gold Logos (verbum) Bible software package last night lol ). Keep up the good work :)
@Matthew, My friend, After reading your comment, I as a Roman Catholic have a simple idea for you to consider, it's called by its acronym of: "KISS" or Keep it simple stupid". Here are some simple reasons given by our Lord: MATTHEW 16:18-19 18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the powers of death SHALL NOT prevail against it. 19. I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Jesus' only option to the world is CATHOLIC UNITY, not man-made protestant divisions or Orthodox static inaction or uninvolment in the unity demanded by Christ. ▪︎JOHN 17:21-23 21. so that they may ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that THEY MAY BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. St. Paul repeats the same message for your sake. ▪︎EPHESIANS 4:3-6 3. Striving to preserve the UNITY of the spirit through the bond of peace: 4. One Body and One Spirit, as you were also called to the One hope of your call 5. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism 6. One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. The one and only Church founded by Jesus has a Catholic or universal mission to go to all corners of rhe world with a lifetime guarantee from God: ▪︎MATTHEW 28:16-20 16. The eleven Disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. 17. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18. Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19. GO therefore and make disciples of All Nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” The word "Catholic" specifies the mission of the Church to go to all corners of the world. Such word started to be used in the latter part of the first century. It was found written in the works of St. Ignatius of Antioch; bishop and martyr, as well as disciple of the Apostles Peter, John and Paul. Ch. 8 (Excerpt). " Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is The Catholic Church". May God bless your discernment.
As an Orthodox Christian, I would say stay away from Dyer. He's a smug cancer. Have you tried Father Spyridon? In an case, if you remain RC or give EO a shot, God bless! :-)
The St Ignatius quote is revealing. Wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic church. But as Jesus said, wherever two or three worship in my name, I am there. This obviously implies that all faithful followers worshipping Jesus are part of the Catholic church, and not just the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
@@christophermorton6390 Chris, Remember the Apostolic "hierarchy" included Judas and 11 other who responded to Jesus, some dieing in horrendous ways. Don't make blanket condemnations. God wants everyone to ve saved and will provide the graces, even though some will reject him. The Catholic Church is composed of saints and sinners who want to be saints... God bless.
@@joecastillo8798 Quite right. I'm not sure how you read condemnation in what I said. I'm saying that the communion of the universal church includes all those who worship Jesus, not just Roman Catholics. It is rather Catholics who condemn any who do not submit to the pontificate, as 'there is no salvation outside of the true church'.
24:42 The Church actually has an office to answer questions regarding papal interpretation. So if a layperson is unsure how to interpret or understand something, he can ask his priest, who then can ask his bishop (if needed), who then can ask this office (if needed), which then can ask the pope (if needed). Dyer approaches the question of interpretation like a protestant, ignoring the mechanisms for authoritative interpretation and dialogue that are already in place.
Your argument is self defeating because you concede to the circularity... This is a point that has been addressed multiple times... The problem is how do I ultimately know that I interpret what the pope says correctly... My priest? Where does he know from? The bishop? What about him? The office? They from the pope. So it goes back to him, I know I interpret him correctly because he says so... This is a circularity that shouldnt happen, Dyer says.
@@ratio518 It's not circular. It's a final, visible authority on Earth. It's literally what you're asking for. You have no way of knowing if you're interpreting the Bible correctly. You can appeal to Tradition all you want, but when someone disagrees with you on Tradition, you can only schism over the difference, because you have no higher authority to adjudicate the issue. Catholics do. We appeal to the Pope. The Pope responds. If it's not clear, we ask for clarification. We can ask for clarification until it's clear. Once it's clear, it's clear. The problem is, as humans, and using our language, nothing is ever as clear as a heretic would want. so we just keep going and asking more questions. There is no circle here. There is just the reality of how learning as a human being works. The fact that this is somehow confusing to you is legitimately scary.
I know everybody loves to say Jay is too much of a meanie to debate. But as a catholic myself I would LOVE to see Trent debate Jay. I’ve always wanted to see that.
Everyone. I am a Brazilian Catholic. But the point is not being mean: it is not respecting rules and a simple set of moral principles ordered to relational behavior at the lower level; we lawyers call it “etiquette” or social rule. With the moral norm and the legal/juridical norm, we have the very concept of ethics in the threefold normative view, that means the realm of the “ethos” or the ways to order our conduct (deontology). For a debate, I think it must be moderated therefore, so as to avoid what he did with Erick Ybarra. Let it happen!
Jay Dyer has demonstrated his behaviour in previous ""debates"" if you can call it that. Shouting over your opponent and saying "epistemology" a hundred times doesn't make for dignified watching. That's why it was a refreshing pleasure to watch Fr. Patrick debate, who has a PhD in Ecclesiology, and apart from those seeking internet blood sports and cheap polemics, is clearly a much more formidable apologist for Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@xXXDeadlyHavocXXx lol, you mean like any formal debate where people are trying to dodge the questions being asked. People who are too scared to debate because the other guy is mean are weak and don't deserve the time of day anyway. It's just words you absolute pansies. Maybe if you undestood what episyomology is, you'd understand why he had to repeat himself. Clearly you need to hear it a hundred more times, because you're still not getting it
@@michaels775 That's a bullshit justification that could only be concocted by Dyer's goons. Debate has to be respectable. If one doges argument then the other party points it out without the need for mockery, berating and insults which are the tool of the devils. And people don't want to debate Dyer because of his bad track record.
Thanks, Trent, for these breakdowns! I’m a convert from Protestantism, and spent time treading water in the Bosporus before swimming the Tiber. Dyer’s videos/blogposts on Protestantism lead me toward the EOC, and as Proverbs says, “He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.” While his videos on the Papacy and Divine Simplicity seemed convincing at first, it was ironically digging deeper into Eastern Orthodoxy that I began, especially with Fr. John Meyendorff, that I began to realize the diversity of views with the EOC on these questions. While at the time I didn’t have detailed breakdowns of Dyer, I did find quite a view resources on not only the authentic Catholic doctrines of the Papacy, Purgatory, and Divine Simplicity, but I also started corresponding with a former-ROCOR hieromonk and a former-Antiochian priest, both of whom hadn’t only studied at Orthodox seminaries, but also spent time on Mt. Athos. Both men helped me understand the charism of the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome, as well as the dilemmas and controversies in contemporary Orthodoxy that are just as troubling, if not more, than the turmoil in the RCC. Eventually, it was the Holy Spirit who led me into the Catholic Church, and a pursuit of deeper communion with Our Blessed Savior. I found deep resonance with the Western Catholic spirituality, hymnody, and liturgy, and I was deeply attracted by the missionary spirit of the Catholic Church in the West.
Would you care to share any resources that helped you lead you to the Catholic Church. I am currently a catechumen at an Orthodox church and through my thoughts I wanted to give Catholicism a chance at defending itself before I become a full member of the Orthodox faith. This would be greatly appreciated!
On the issue of artificial birth control: Before (1960) ALL Christian denominations and the Catholic church deplore artificial contraception. Now, it is ONLY the Catholic Church that condemns unnatural birth control
@@junacebedo888 Popes don’t make doctrines. The doctrine is received from the Apostles and is passed down (Jude 3). Our doctrine is in the works and lives of the holy saints, which are confirmed in councils of orthodox Bishops.
Thank you for actually engaging with Jay instead of writing him off as “mean” and hand waving his depth of theology that he offers in opposition to Rome. I appreciate your willingness to engage with many traditions, although we don’t come to the same conclusions at this point. ☦️
Actually, if you go to Byzantine Catholic blogs and threads, you'll see there's like a challenge to see who can be the most Orthodox while still in communion with Rome. Byzantine Catholics consider themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome." This is acceptable language. Even the UGCC primate Sviatoslav Shevchuk embraces it, but rejecting doctrines and dogmas is a problem within the community. I've encountered a few, who even suggests that we interpret every council after Nicea 2(787) as general councils and not as ecumenical councils, which would undo almost everything Catholics believe definitively. I'm writing about this right now, and I think the root goes back to a misreading of Unitatis Redintegratio, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Orientale lumen, Ut Unum Sint, and other authoritative texts that were sincere, but meant to be ecumenical. Acknowledging the legitimacy of the Orthodoxy's ancient traditions was never meant to be a rejection of the Catholic position, but Greek Catholics treat it like a special exemption at times. Bp. Nicholas James Samra of the Melkite rite, for example, I was told has been know to say, "We have almost everything in common with the Orthodox, except for full communion; and almost nothing in common with the Latin Church, except for full communion." Perhaps one of the most notable examples is the 1996 synod from the Melkite Greek Catholic Church where Archbishop Zoghby stated “I believe in everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches… I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome, in the limits recognized to the first among the bishops by the holy fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.” (cnewa.org/magazine/healing-the-church-of-antioch-the-greek-melkite-initiative-30753/). Naturally, how someone reconciles this statement with the current Papal teachings of Roman See, seems to be the major question. Of which there seem to be a common argument. Trent is Eastern Catholic but he seems to be on the traditional, dogmatic Catholic side of things.
I used to be a paid subscriber to Dyer 4-5 years ago. I stopped listening when he became unsufferable regarding Catholics. I still sometimes listen to their movie reviews. I know there are hours of content of Jay going on about how bad Catholicism is and I have heard many of them. I was never convinced because I am Catholic from birth, it is intrinsically linked to my heritage/identity and what I hear them describing in Orthodoxie is almost exactly like a trad Catholic mass and culture. But whatever, I know they'll say somthing about essence-energy distinction and what not, talk about how priests are pedos, et al., as if Orthodoxie didn't have many of the same modernist problems. Aside from theological details, what I notice is that Catholics in my circles (trad and Novus Ordo, I am in both worlds, as I was raised in the Novus Ordo, but I am more trad in my own life for the past several years) generally have a sympathetic view of Orthodoxe people and bear no ill will toward them, but all the Orthodoxe folks on the internet are so hateful towards Catholics (and are generally just dismissive of Protestants in a kinder way). The couple of Orthodoxe people I know in real life are all ethnics of the Coptic, Russian or Greek churches (I know one French Canadian who attends Orthodoxe mass and doesn't hate on Catholics). I've also noticed that a lot of these Orthodoxe converts on the internet are new to the faith and from Protestant backgrounds (so anti-Catholic from the get-go), so time will tell regarding their seriousness. I live in Québec and I don't think catholicism can be separated from our nationalism and history (I also agree theologically with it and don't really buy the arguments that Dyer makes about how Catholicism is responsible for the decline of the West). It's a big topic and I'm not going to get into it on a youtube comment, but I will say that rootless Americans tend to more easily attach themselves to stuff that hasn't much to do with who they are/were. I know there are French Canadians like Jon Pageau who are Orthodoxe and whose family left the Catholic church after Vatican II (to be Protestant, of course), but at least Jon doesn't hate on Catholics (his French language channel is co-hosted with a Catholic, but rootless anglophones wouldn't know this, as unilingualism limits them somewhat). I find Jay unlistenable now (I used to be a big fan). I think Jamie is lovely and I still like listening to her. Basically, what I want to say to Orthodoxe people in the internet is this: have some charity when you are hating on the Catholics and dismiss us as in some kind of devil church. Take a look at yourselves and how you're acting.
Yeah Dyer is rude I was debating going to orthodox but im now leaning towards Catholicism the only thing is I don’t like the problems im the church and confused about Mary
@@cw8790 I am sure the Orthodox church has many of the same problems, but we are more unaware of them, since it's mostly in Eastern Europe and not in languages we understand. It is also very ethnic. Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, etc. Catholic means universal. This Church has always been full of imperfect people and infiltrators.
@@vaseman3639 Well, I don't really like them, in general. It's true. Globalisation expresses itself in their language: globish. They've done nothing but ruin Québec since 1759. But I am sure you are a nice person, on a personal level.
As a Catholic if you attend Mass every week and attend on all the holy days of obligation during the year receive the sacrament of reconciliation and penance on a regular basis take care of the needy and less fortunate whenever possible and very important try your best to commit to saying the rosary on a regular basis and also ignore the politics of religion and ignore the inevitable scandal that is brought to the church buy fallible humans if you don't like what an individual priest or Bishop is preaching or sermonizing ignore it attended different Mass or church if necessary if you do these simple things I promise you your faith will never waver we need to take care of our own salvation first
Thank you, Trent, for this and for ALL your other responses to attacks/criticisms of the Catholic Church. Agnostic through my 40's, I encountered Christ, and my journey into the Catholic Church was long and "mystical." Having listened to this and various other attacks on the Catholic Church, I am working to express my thoughts. Of all the people with RUclips channels addressing these issues, yours is the MOST impressive in the thought/research/love in working to explain/evaluate/invite dialogue that brings everyone to a better understanding of Christ's Church. I pray many blessings of Christ on you personally and on your work on this channel and other venues. God Bless!
Im in my 40s to brother, i grew up a protestant Christian, but i became an atheist later, thats how i lived most of my life. I jus recently came back to the Lord, and became a protestant again, but i didnt commit myself to a church, bc I knew there was a problem, it is the reason why I became an atheist in the first place. But this time i knew 100% there was a God, and ik it was Christianity 100%, even though that's a diff story, but it's amazing how now I look at my RUclips feed from a year ago, and I see all the pastors, and teachers I was listening to, and how i was deceived, well long story short I'm coming home to Rome. God bless u brother 🙏🏼💯😇🇻🇦
I am ex-Eastern Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox church I went to didn't even evangelize. They just relied on the annual Greek Food Festival to draw people in. There was basically no evangelical zeal among them. Nice people, but there was also a noticeable Greek clique. Like, if you weren't Greek you weren't part of the club. Their bishops tried to fix the jurisdictional mess but since no one is in charge it ultimately can never be solved. I left around the time of the failed Council of Crete. Their autonomous churches as a whole simply can not function together with the loss of their Pope and reduced power role of the Ecumenical Patriarch. And it's got worse even since they effectively divided into two sects regarding the whole Kiev thing. Thank God I left for the Catholic Church in time before they turned into 2 denominations; I think I would have been really heartbroken.
after being a protestant for 22 years, and about to convert to Catholicism ... i can honestly step back and say the protestant realm is very anti-authority, like teenagers. It seems to be a realm of rebellion rather than a submission to Christ and follow the biblical layout of authority in the church. i was the same way, i didn't want some body of authority to have say over my own biblical understanding. it's pride, plain and simple.
THIS. I've been talking to my protestant friend about my recent conversion to Catholcism. His biggest hang up seems to be just that. Authority. He sounds like a rebellious teen. Who can't trust the government or any "powerful" group with influence on politics.
ehh its not pride. At least not for me. My main issue is that idea if Indulgence before Martin Luther, the forced removal of Native or Indigenous kids from famikies in the early 1900's, the sexual assault issue of the 90's yet say the Bible is doctored or that its THE CHURCH thats the authority is the problem. When it comes to our souls, the name of God being presented in the world, ita hard to say the Catholic Church is an Authority on God's behalf given the atrocities.
@kuraikenshi2349 Weak argument against Catholicism. Biblically, we knew that wolves would come among the sheep. There are evil people in EVERY church. The Catholic Church is so large and universal that it's bound to have some wicked traitors. Remember, 1 Judas among 12 apostles didn't invalidate anything that Christ taught the deciples.
@@blappappa3836 This is an internal critique against the Rome and the East. Syllogism 1: P1: The Great Schism occurred in 1054, leading to the separation of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches who both have apostolic succession, The Holy Spirit, and were one church. P2: The theological, liturgical, and doctrinal disputes were central reasons for the schism. C: Therefore, the one united church came into different interpretations, as evidenced by the divergent theological and doctrinal positions that led to the split between the Orthodox and Catholic churches in 1054. Syllogism 2: P1: The Holy Spirit will guide The Church's interpretations into truth. P2: The conclusion of Syllogism 1 is true. C (a) Therefore, The Holy Spirit guides the church to different truths C (b) Therefore, The Holy Spirit doesn't guide the church's interpretations.
Thank you for this one! I remember a few months ago looking for a Catholic critique of EO, and the only thing I found was Vaticancatholic's videos. Good to see an orthodox Catholic critique.
Vatican catholic is a sedevacantist group, so they should not be endorsed. I do happen to like those videos they do of EO, but do not endorse their overall message.
@@TheChunkyCrusader I think that’s why the commentator said its good to find an *orthodox* catholic take on EO. Meaning he understands that vaticancatholic are not in line with the church (especially since they’re sedes)
@@piousthepious Indeed. I found out later that the so-called "Most Holy Family Monastery" was a heretical sedevacantist pseudo-Benedictine group. There was a French channel, "Le Lys et la Croix", that had made a video about them (+ a critique of absolute divine simplicity and a mention that he had become EO), or another French one, Archidiacre, which exposes them in a video. And as I was saying, I'm happy to find a video from a proper Catholic channel engaging with EO claims. It would be very helpful to someone envisioning to enter the Church, but hesitating between Rome and Constantinople.
Jay Dyer is one of the great Catholic Apologists. Most people are so turned off by his childish attitude they come over to the One True Faith. Thanks, Jay!
"That guy is a meanie and immature at times so we're going to disregard everything he says and go for these guys who always speak in a professional and mature manner so obviously everything they say must be true." Admitting you guys would fall victim to snake oil salesmen is not the "gotcha" argument you think it is.
@@thehammared5972 and this isn't the "gotcha" you think it is. I pointed out one of his flaws. I can put his arguments to side for a moment and comment on his character. Just because I didn't write a novel discrediting his claims, doesn't mean I cannot address them separately. He has very bad character. Did you know he is friends with a Wiccan and promotes a Wiccan music production company? Jay also loves contraception. He is anti natural law and part of the occult
@@Noah-cm6ek 🤣 “put his arguments to side” your pope, infallible leader of your church, literally prays with Hindus and Muslims and you have the audacity to talk about character. Hate to break it to you dummy but jay’s character has nothing to do with the validity of his Roman Catholic criticisms. Imagine being so dumb and hypocritical you think the validity of Jay’s beliefs depend on his character. Orthodoxy doesn’t make the stupid mistake Roman Catholics do by basing their entire faith on the actions off one man.
Jay may be wrong about the Magisterium and the Papacy, but he understands youtube entertainment dynamic. It's fun to see him get worked up about things. I know people complain about it, but some of those same people are like half his audience.
Tbh its hilarious if you join his discord server and he goes to debate someone and he just starts yelling at them. It's very entertaining and half the time the people who join to debate him are just complete trolls or militant atheists and its, admittedly, fun to listen to Jay just smoke them 😂😂
I am Catholic, and I like watching/listening to CAs and Pints with Aquinas, but Jay is leagues more entertaining than them. He is just a normal guy. It is very cringe that Trent feels the need to disclaim that Jay is mean and unprofessional. Matt Fradd is even gayer. "I will not give Jay Dyer a platform." Exactly to your point, they think he is toxic for getting heated. That's why we like him. EMBRACE THE RIVALRY!!!! I ain't converting to orthodoxy, but can we get some normal dudes for Catholic content
@@Luke-xt6pk I can respect Matt Fradd and Eric Ybarra not wanting to debate him. He's aggressive and rude(and intentionally so). It's a reasonable thing to avoid. But what annoys me is some apologists act like it's a moral imperative that they ignore Jay while they go on to interview people with views much more problematic views. Like Matt Fradd interviewed Dave Rubin and Michael Lofton interviewed Bart Erhman, David Bentley Hart, and even Muslim apologists. These people are more civil, and more enjoyable to talk to, so I get it, and respect it, but what bothers me is Jay's idealogy and personhood is being presented as evil incarnate, when it's really just hilariously/entertainingly juvenile. In my opinion, Jay gets mad because he's trying "admonish the sinner" and "instruct the ignorant." These are spiritual acts of MERCY. Manners and respect matter, also, but it seems like they now matter more than ideals.
Trent offered a debate challenge to Dyer in the video. If he turns this offer down when he'll expose himself to the world that he's a coward who picks and chooses who he thinks would be an easy opponent.
@@billj6109 Let's not so hasty. We will wait and see before judging who is to blame if the debate does not come about. It might be Trent that makes the conditions untenable.
""Catholic Apologetics is just defending the Pope" Uh yeah, that's kind of the point of an apologist. We wouldn't need to play defense if they weren't always objecting. If the speaker is on the offense against dissenting religions, they are no longer acting as an apologist.
I'm lds and have been investigating the Catholic church because my family had me baptized in the Catholic church. So I'm investigating my roots because everyone in my family is Catholic.
Oh my gosh, Dyer's arguments are sooooo STOOOOOPID. "Sola Papa"? "I follow Augustine, I follow Aquinas"? No Catholic even thinks like that, let alone talks like it.
Well I'm sorry, but technically you do follow Augustine, since his erroneous thinking on Original Sin is the basis of some of the Roman Catholic dogmas. Ideas such as the Immaculate Conception, Indulgences, Treasury of Merit, can be traced back to the foundation of Augustine's errors.
@@IrishEddie317 You are parroting the Paris School and Romanides. Such nonsense was utterly unknown in Orthodoxy until a few centuries ago. It is an a-historical novelty, a theological innovation. But when you swallow polemical talking points whole without actually studying history, that's what you get.
I had a zillion questions and doubts. I wanted to be certain I had found the Body of Christ. It was obvious almost immediately that it was either the Roman Catholic church or some tiny outfit somewhere that I'd never heard of. I began to look closely at the Catholic church and after literally thousands of hours of investigation, studying and learning, it became crystal clear that she is the church founded and sustained by Christ. She is the real deal. Where Christ is. Where love awaits us.
This video was extremely informative for me. I am not a Catholic not because I reject Catholicism necessarily, but because I have so many questions about it and I don’t necessarily believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches so I might be wrong. My big worry is that if I am wrong I would hate to be separated from Jesus for eternity simply due to lack of information, but Trent here seems to point out that that won’t be the case. It is possible I may still become a Catholic someday if I’m convinced of it, but it is nice to know that Catholics don’t necessarily look down on me or exclude me from salvation simply to ignorance
I was in the same position and have converted. Take your time and study these issues and watch some debates. Jimmy Akin has some great ones against Protestant scholars. Once you see the error in Protestant doctrine (which originated out of the 1600s, much of it unheard of by the early Christian’s) you’ll be able to see the truth the Catholicism much more clearly. Praying for you 🙏
I think the best analogy for understanding Jay Dyer is that he's a PC with several terabytes worth of storage drives, paired with a shitty CPU. Tons of data; but an inability to process it well.
@C lmao Well I'll gladly go into the weeds for a bit on Divine Simplicity if you really want to. Metaphysics is my wheelhouse. Or we could go into the Fathers or St Gregory Palamas--though I'm still versed in these, it's not my "main thing," so to speak. Genuinely, I'm up for the discussion if you wanna have it. 👍
@C I was actually just yesterday thinking of reviving a Catholic philosophy channel like that which I made way back from when I was in high school haha Maybe this is the sign I should 😂
Good analogy. It seems he's like that because of arrogance... Unfortunately he doesn't really check the real Catholic arguments and attacks a strawman, it would be better even for his channel to be more humble and consider he can make mistakes
Man I have to say that I do like Jay Dyer, he really holds no punches to the Church, many of his objections I've had myself and there are still a lot of them that I do not have a clear answer to, but I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe in his church the Only Catholic and Apostolic Church. ¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Does it worry you that dyer seems to change his religion every few years? He also seems to like wicca. He publicly promoted wiccan rappers and appeared in their videos.
@@jonathansoko5368 Oh, does he? I wonder who that wiccan rappers would be? And what if his path to the true faith led him through other denominations previously? Is he infallible? And since we're on it, does it worry you Papa Frank is considering blessing gay unions?
Dyer's been a Catholic twice, he's now an Orthodox, he was also a former Protestant...next week he’ll be Mormon. Orthodox scholars don’t take him seriously why doesn’t he speak at Orthodox church’s or Orthodox Seminaries. He doesn’t because he’s an Orthobro taken seriously by Protestant converts that have always hated Catholicism
He doesn’t speak at seminaries cause he’s not a scholar. Scholars tend to be specialists who aren’t simply trying to prove another denomination wrong. All of his anti Catholic arguments don’t come from Protestantism. It all comes from 20th century orthodox theology which was very anti Catholic ie Lossky, Yannaras, Romanides, Florensky
The confused mind of Jay Dyer Calvinist --> Catholic --> Eastern Orthodoxy --> Catholic --> considering Talmudic Judaism --> Eastern Orthodoxy. Q. What is he really? A. An occultist.
Great video as always Trent. One minor quibble, at around 1hr38mins I think your response to Jay's accusation of irrevence probably warranted a longer answer (probably a whole separate video in fact). I think it's perfectly fine to acknowledge that some irreverence has crept in and that more needs to be done about it. Simply dismissing it as a "liturgical winter" is inadequate in my view. Apart from that, please keep up the great work. God Bless
Hm, I just realized why I like Trent and Matt Fradd the most among the YT apologetics due to the huge difference between the tone of Trent and Dyer. Dyer sounds quite arrogant and talks down on anybody or anything he disagrees with while Trent can respectfully and humbly point out the points he feels don't have a standing. Unfortunately several Catholic apologetics are like Dyer. I cannot watch Reason& Theology anymore since he has gotten more and more arrogant in his tone, especially in his community posts. Taylor Marshall has also kind of gone rogue and I have the feeling both R&T and TM have a strong sense that they're smarter than everyone else and only they hold the correct opinion. Trent is a breath of fresh air in the Catholic RUclips scene.
Orthodox here, loved this video have seen his first video and this response, at some point I’ll watch his response to this. Super interesting, may God bless us and guide us all!
I love Jay. He helped me to convert. HOWEVER, Trent, you are the man! Love your work. I REALLY hope that you guys can speak at some point. That would be great! Edit: And I’m referring to a FORMAL debate here like he has done with prominent Muslim apologists. A lot of people like the free form dialogue/debates. But to be honest, i honestly feel Jay is at his best when it’s formal. It keeps everyone honest and is much easier to analyze after all is said and done.
@@eternalbyzantium262 as was his debate with Shabir! People love the off the cuff Dyer (as do I sometimes), but he is absolutely brutal with his formal debates. And it’s not like they can’t do a cross examination. Things are sure to get at least somewhat spicy during that part of the debate. I don’t know, I just prefer formal over his discord debates.
@@zeloraz8101 There’s a lot of history that goes into that, though. Erik and Michael have been just as uncharitable to Jay as he has been towards them. Plus, Erik specifically had dodged Jay for two years prior to that debate, and then he tried to say that Jay was too scared to speak with him. The one major difference between R&T and Dyer is that the former does uncharitable stuff behind the scenes and then act like innocent Saints online. Whereas Jay doesn’t really care about bashing them over Twitter and RUclips. At least we can say that Jay didn’t try to have R&T deplatformed, nor did he try to get any of their priests defrocked. That stuff was just unacceptable.
Ama need to see some video proof then because I have not see Erik be uncharitable to him. And considering how Jay is uncharitable to other people, in past dialogues i understand why he would not want to debate him. and that's a lot of accusations, ama need to see some proof.
Debating a few Protestants myself online, I get the feeling that they sit around in their study groups trying to confirm why they are not Catholic. If they see us as the enemy then they don't have to fight amongst themselves and argue over all their convoluted doctrines.
This seems true in my experience as well. Protestants disagree with eachother on a wide range of issues and I rarely see them critically examine their own beliefs, yet they have a mutual hatred for Catholicism.
@@existentialzenji918 The devil can not go agaisnt himself the devil have divided all those protestants denomination to make it seeing he is not behind them, but look the devil is in the detail they all hate the catholic church and promoted the hate against the church
I’m a Protestant who debates Catholics. I’m one of the few. Protestants as a collective spend little time thinking about the RCC. Don’t overstate the importance of the RCC in the lives of Protestants. As for hating RCs, there are a few who get rabid about the RCC, but the ones I’ve met are mostly ex-RCs who feel they were deceived by the RCC. I love RCs and have many friends and family who are RCs. Wonderful folks. Only a couple have gotten deep on RCC theology with me, and the rest have just agreed with me about Jesus as the focus. I get along famously with RCs but simply disagree with them on key theological points.
I feel like many young Westerners are flocking towards Eastern Orthodoxy because they see it as the real thing, whereas Catholicism seems to have lost its Spirit. But it is exactly this what we need to strive for: To become a living, faithful, God-fearing body of Christ on earth. This is coming from someone who grew up Evangelical, lost his faith, then went through a short Orthodox ‘phase’ and finally joined the Catholic Church. Orthodoxy was Christianity as I loved to imagine it (because it was all so new and exciting), but becoming Catholic and facing the reality of the Church beyond my boy-ish imaginations is the real deal. Finally, I can freely confess that I believe in Jesus Christ and that I am part of his church, with all my shortcomings and failures I am loved. Thank you Trent for the work you’re doing and for your patience and compassion!
Well when we are finding in Pi, Eulers formula, the fine structure constant and the Golden Ratio all in the Greek its pretty awesome! Latin doesn't do these mathematical miracles!
I saw your comment for 3 years ago in the video of "converting to orthodox", saying you were protestant and that you were considering converting to Catholicism but bc of Jay dyer was like "destroying" the arguments for Catholicism you were considering to convert to orthodox and now that I'm seeing this videos 2 year after and I see you coment here, so I wanted to know if you have converted to Catholicism or if you have decided too go to orthodox? And if you have go towards Catholicism, how is it going? Are you liking it? XOXO 😊😊
I see what he is doing…he is playing to many of the frustrations that trads have. He wants to pick us off by demonstrating that the Church has either defected or never was the true Church. And Trent is being very sly in quoting Taylor Marshall on Islam.
@C ok orthobro. Your hatred of Rome owes from the 19th Century and was forgotten about for a few hundred years. This orthobro mentality is a protestant inspired anachronism
@@icxcnika2037 Orthodox have to "cope" with the fact they are committed to ignoring the Papacy. Which is a huge blunder. Worse than any eccentricity of our Saints.
Trent, where’s the infallible list of the infallible extra ordinary magisterium and universal ordinary? There’s not one. It just moves the problem back a step. What is the epistemic criteria to know you are accurately putting them into which box, versus the fallible ordinary? Is that your private interpretation?
You do realize Trent maliciously ran away from a debate challenge issued by Dyer right? You complain about the Orthobros yet seem completely okay with the Catholic pop apologists like Trent and Scott Hahn that dance around genuine problems in the Catholic Church like the past 60 years of heresy.
@@eternalbyzantium262 You read a lot into my statement. How do you know what I believe? I complain about Orthobros because they use logical fallacies at leisure and do not address actually claims of people regarding your leader. Define pop apologist. How does one maliciously run away?
@@icxcnika2037 ST. Augustine Rebutted these Orthodox Christians already...He said that the true Church is known by her HOLY BRAND NAME CATHOLIC.... "We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the "Whole world" employs in her regard." -------ST. AUGUSTINE, The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D. ================== I Will follow that Christian Religion that is called CATHOLIC by the UNIVERSAL world...😉
@@icxcnika2037 ??...If you are the Catholic church, why does the WHOLE WORLD don't call you that name??🙄🙄 Even your enemies don't call you that CATHOLIC name??🙄🙄 St. Augustine's prophecy looks more like the Modern Catholic church... THE "Brand NAme" belongs to us...Stop your wishful thinking.... ST. PACIAN OF BARCELON, 390 A.D. "But under the Apostles, you will say, no one was called Catholic. Be it thus. It shall have been so. Allow even that. When after the Apostles heresies had burst forth, and were striving under various names to tear piecemeal and divide the Dove and the Queen of God, did not the Apostolic people require a name of their own, whereby to mark the unity of the people that were uncorrupted, lest the error of some should rend limb by limb the undefiled virgin of God? Was it not seemly that the chief head should be distinguished by its own peculiar appellation?" -----ST. PACIAN OF BARCELONA, LETTER 1, 390 A.D.
@@icxcnika2037 ??..CATHOLIC is the one that contains the TRUE FAITH.... And it attaches ONLY to the Church called CATHOLIC by the WHOLE WORLD...That is the STandard Rule of St. Augustine and the Church Fathers....This is the BRAND NAME of the Church registered in Heaven.... ST. AUGUSTINE, 390 A.D. "The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should ... With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me." ------ST. AUGUSTINE, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith., 390 A.D. ======================== This prophecy of ST. Augustine looks more like the Modern catholic Chruch....not the Eastern ORthodox... 😁
@@icxcnika2037 ??.... What can you quote mine there??.....I can even paste the WHOLE CHAPTER 4 of his PRophecy if you want.... CHAPTER 4 "For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)- not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion." -------St. Augustine (354-430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4 ===================== Tell me if his Description of the Church looks like the Modern Eastern Orthodox??😁 Communion of young people or not...It does not matter...Church got authority and power to adjust the legal Age.... And in case you don't know...Acts 15 did no abolish the Circumcision of Christian Jews....Your Eastern orthodox church and the Church ,abolish this rule already....Jewish Christians don't need circumcision already...
I think the Church has overdone it on ecumenicalism and religous dialogue (Assisi being the prime example). But members of the EO communion have no right to criticize. EO were at Assisi and the EO are members of the National COuncil of Churches and the World Council of Churches. The RC has only observer status.
An EO would say that is very different because the faith doesn't fall with terrible bishops. Bishops can be outright heretics and have been. For a pope to show indifferentism is much much graver of a situation.
@@seraphim95 Yes we do, since we are not Sedevacantists, we acknowledge that even Popes are able to adhere towards heresy, and the faith does not fall apart because of this, since the institution of the Papacy cannot be tainted, just as the Eucharist cannot be tainted by a serial killing priest.
I should say to my fellow Catholics: the behavior of Jay and the Orthobros is not indicative of the Orthodox as a whole. For Catholics interested in learning more of Orthodoxy, I recommend Fr. Josiah Trenham for a better introduction.
@fredreich groypson you obviously have not seen his debate with Tjump (an atheist) where Jay becomes utterly unhinged and makes basic category errors (such as conflating logical and sound arguments) while using crappy presup all along the way. Meanwhile, Trent (Thomist Catholic) had a debate with this same atheist that was far, far more fruitful and compelling for theism than... whatever Dyer was doing.
@fredreich groypson the Thomists/classical foundationalist apologists actually demonstrate the coherence of their own metaphysics, whereas the presup guys like Jay, Darth Dawkins and James White assert the inconsistency of the atheist position, while asserting that therefore their own system is correct. It's like... no, you've only done half the work.
It sounds like dyer googled catholicism bad, then copy and pasted other people's rejections in order to appeal to his ex protestant orthobros who meme life all day
It's really wonderful how calmly you respond to people in these videos. There are so many times where I get angry at how your "opposition" states things and you don't rise to the bait. Thank you for that.
Isn't it funny that Taylor Marshall won't debate this guy, but demanded Bishop Barron go onto his channel and explain hope all be saved? Marshall made that video saying he doesn't understand what Barron meant and didn't even cite the article on Word on Fire that clarified Barron and was published a few days before the video so he didn't even try to understand Barron.
@@dwightschrute900 You're right TM wasn't charitable towards Bishop Barron trying to twist his words into heresy despite Barron clarifying before he made his video.
The debate between RC and OC seems to be something where you will see the evidence how you want to. Both sides have strong cases on their own, in a debate you go with your gut. For me, I think theosis and the spiritual experience of Christ is more emphasized in the OC. I was raised in the RC and just never got that side of the faith and fell into atheism. But that said, I love the Catholic church and my Catholic brothers and sisters. It is my true hope to see all 5 patriarchs come to an agreement so we can tackle the true false faith of protestantism
The concept of theosis is still taught extensively in Eastern Catholicism. In the West, I've seen Theosis usually referred to as "Christification", which is achieved through the worthy reception of the Eucharist and a life of virtue which eventually becomes "Heroic Virtue" which is emphasized. Also there is still an interest in mysticism and meditative mental prayer. For many in the Catholicism, the top reason why they are convinced that their faith is the true one is because of the many apparitions of Our Lady, Christ, the Angels and Saints, with miracles and signs alongside them. Especially those approved apparitions which have happened since the 20th century, which confirm Catholic dogmatic theology, without disqualifying Eastern Catholic practices and traditions. Like with the case of the Immaculate Conception. These theological points however are not necessarily accepted by the EO. The circumstances surrounding them and investigations make it unlikely that these differing points are fabrications, especially because many of the seers of these apparitions are generally simple people or children who are not acquainted with these theological concepts and lived on a pre-internet age, yet managed to transmit them and the prophecies attributed to these messages from Heaven became true. Also many of the messages from these apparitions speak in reprobation about the Catholic clergy who were unfaithful or would be in the future which we are now living. As such many of these apparitions were initially not well received by many priests and bishops at the time and there were attempts to suppress them, as these messages didn't fit with their agendas or caused a negative emotional response in them. Though ultimately some of these apparitions became approved as the testimony of the witnesses and extraordinary signs proved to be worthy of belief.
Council's are responses to heresies... so if this was an issue of the schism, why was it not addressed then? That said I appreciate you actually addressing and defending your position as opposed to attacking EO...
Hey there, i am new to the whole Catholicism vs Eastern Orthodoxy debate (extremely new). And I have no idea what you're talking about. But don't Jesus and Paul both talk explicitly about division?
@@abelj5145 the church was split around 1054 ( controversies started in the 8th century and we were completely split by 1270) over two major issues. Fillioque and the jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome. I'm saying that previously dogmatic statements come from councils and those councils are a response to heresy.
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese Wow, he put them in Roman Numerals. Hahaha. You people are such try-hards. So insecure that you have to jump at every Catholic on the internet, worship, I mean watch Jay Dyer religiously (pun intended), and just overall have an arrogance that is so offputting. No wonder your church is small and meak. Just as you are in mind and body. It's clear the EO internet cult kids suffer from little brother syndrome and I would probably be right in saying that they are miserable in life, always wondering if they are "right" and living on the internet just repeating what they are told by their master Jay.
Ironic how in point 9 Jay criticises "clown masses" whatever they are and alledges all sorts of wayward liturgies and innovation while at the same time he will critique motu propter for trying to preserve mass in Latin language and associated liturgy and ask for any innovation to be moderated through bishops. It is also ironic to say that the pope can and should excommunicate innovators ( the seeming final orthodox solution to everything) but on the other hand criticise the pope for regulating the Eastern rite in order to preserve it from innovation.
Why is he so obsessed with studying Catholicism? To me this shows God has a placed a desire in him to be Catholic and in communion with Christ’s true church.
He started out Protestant, then became Catholic and then sedevacantist for a while before converting to Orthodoxy. I hope you’re right, but it seems like he just wants to protest.
@@ratio518 To be fair, there are lots of people who have been Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox their whole life and still have no idea what they’re talking about when they explain their particular faith tradition.
@@ntmn8444 He does (and is). never underestimate the power of online convertodox contrarianism i used to watch him when i was considering orthodoxy. it’s because he’s “cool” and seems to know a lot of ~hidden truth~ like his works on Hollywood satanists and p3dos.
Seems like both Churches preach charity, but you wouldn't know it by the way some folks talk to eachother in the comments (confession would certainly be prudent for some :). The world hates us and wants our Churches destroyed, so can we at least operate as friends due to a shared enemy? Tangibly, let's read eachother's words in a charitable light before projecting meaning and imagining tone. I swear, it's like listening two kids arguing over whose dad would win in a fight while being stalked by wolves.
@John Hickey John, Trent is responding. Not attacking. Certain Orthodox offering opposition to Rome have been very caustic and even sarcastic. NOT so in the RC
@Eremias Ranwolf Eremias, Interesting fantasy. Now back to reality. You should know that a Pope is elected by Cardinals. Truth is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit given by Christ to His one Church. JOHN 16, 13 13. When the SPIRIT of TRUTH comes, He WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. Eremías, Do you truly believe Christ's promise? Here's another promise you must believe: JOHN 17:21-23 21. so that they may all BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. What does Jesus want? UNITY! Not divisions. That is why Jesus prays for Peter, our first Pope, Vicar of Christ. LUKE 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I HAVE PRAYED FOR YOU that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again (after the denials), strengthen your brethren". Are the 1st century "brethren" the only fortunate ones or does it apply to all humanity until the end of times? Of course not. It applies to all humans throughout the centuries, since Jesus clearly said He will be with His Church forever. That is, Peter's successors will also be able to strengthen their brethren accross the centuries just like Peter was guided by the Holy Spirit to all the truth. MATTHEW 28:19-20 19. GO therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, TO THE END OF THE AGE.” What shall all Christians do? All must listen to Jesus who speaks through His one infallible Church and do what it says in the Gospel: ▪︎LUKE 10:16 16. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” The lesson is very clear Eremías. Now you must humbly obey Jesus Christ our Lord and be one with His Church. May God bless your discernment.
John Meyendorf's book "Marriage, an Eastern Orthodox View" is a really good book, both for the East and the West. While I disagree with Meyendorf's position on contraception, it should be noted that his reasoning and explanation is well composed, albeit, in error, not from a lack of grounding in history as much as a misunderstanding of how chemical contraception would affect individuals and society, as effect brilliantly foreseen by St. Paul VI and those who helped write Humanae Vitae. But much of what he says beyond this is very informative. It would consider it a seminal work on Christian marriage, best read by a Catholic in combination with St. John Paul the Great's Love and Responsibility. (Though it is significantly more accessible than the latter.) Kallistos's work is also great. God bless the Metropolitan in his waning years.
there is nothing in the logic of presuppositionalism against the Catholic faith... the problem of Dyer, as well as of many other anti-Catholics out there, is to think that the catholic faith is entirely based on papal dogmatic declarations, which is simply ridiculous - the patristic tradition of the faith has primary authority to define what constitutes catholic doctrine
@@MajorasTime Pius IX declared at v1 “I am the tradition.” That council even went so far as to say it was likely that the Pope could not error even I private matters. The popes have shown that they have the power to override the consensus of the fathers, the magisterial interpretation of Mathew 16 is a good example of this.
Catholic faith trembles because of the doctrine of absolute divine simplicity. Without the energy essence distiction you can't know God and this leads to atheism/pantheism
>the patristic tradition has primary authority to define catholic doctrine. Many fathers of the church forbid imagination in prayer. Yet the Catholic church contrary to the tradition not only does not forbid this, but *encourages* the use of imagination in prayer, the "Ignatian spirituality", which leads to all this eccentric emotionalism and spiritual delusion, for example, thinking you need to be able to imagine things in order to commune with God. Looks like the fathers of old have been put to the side. www.pravmir.com/article_545.html
This is why you see all these visions and apparitions in the second millennium which we did not see in the first millennium. Because the Catholic church by teaching we ought to use imagination in prayer (implicitly) teaches that this is the *goal* of prayer.
He sure does act like one. Jay by himself is to blame for the Ortho bros. They literally act like online calvinists, but claim orthodoxy. It's quite ironic.
@@jonathansoko5368 yup. Jay has never dropped his Calvinistic attitude. He’s still basically a theonomist, and runs around trying to be Bahnsen in different denomination and one time in Judiasm.
Umm no he’s not, and it’s based what he says he “believes” Granted he was raised Baptist, then Presbyterian, then Roman Catholic, then orthodoxy, then denounced orthodoxy and went back to Catholic, then outright denied Christ for a time, then back to orthodoxy. You can’t believe in the worship of saints, relics and Mary, and deny the atonement of Christ on the cross and be Protestant. You could be Catholic tho
Dyer misunderstands that the primacy of the Pope was not really in serious theological dispute until the age of modernism. Indeed, the authority of the Church altogether was in dispute in this age, and the stamp of the Pope is all that could be held up as authority for giving certitude to the Church's witness of Jesus Christ to the world, to uphold Scripture and Tradition. All doctrine that came after Vatican I would be impossible to assert if we were still asking whether the Magisterium has any authority to uphold a belief in Scripture and the apostolic faith. Jay is basically saying (without realizing it) that there is no certainty to Christianity that can be affirmed by the Church, and that personal witness alone can serve as any authority for the witness of Scripture and Tradition. Which is ridiculous.
Jay is being intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. He has admitted in his streams time and again that a belief becomes dogmatized only when it is disputed and challenged. But he seems to abandon his own line of reasoning altogether when it comes to bashing the Catholic Church. He's and forked tongued charlatan
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese not epistemic certitude but magisterial certitude, which in any age beyond the first century is necessary to confirm any claim of having epistemic certitude today.
I agree with everything Trent has to say here except for the part on where he speaks on presuppositionalism. Presuppositional apologetics actually originated from Catholic saints, not the Reformers. Most people don't seem to know that. St. Irenaeus was a presuppositionalist and used presuppositional arguments for God and Catholicism in his writings. And St. John Damascus used a transcendental argument for knowledge and sense perception. So this is the only mistake so far that Trent has made in the video.
We might as well say St Thomas Aquinas is a presuppositionalist provided we're talking about divine revelation. Matters of the faith don't rely on the same sort of justification as normal discourse, if the premise of the authority of any given statement is "God told me" it has to presuppose there's a God
@@xXXDeadlyHavocXXx Sure. Here's one example. St. Irenaeus gave an argument for the existence of God while presupposing the Christian God in his argument. “For it is necessary that, things that are made should have the beginning of their making from some great cause; and the beginning of all things is God. For He Himself was not made by any, and by Him all things were made. And therefore it is right first of all to believe that there is One God, the Father, who made and fashioned all things, and made what was not that it should be, and who, containing all things, alone is uncontained.” (St. Irenaeus, Demonstration of The Apostolic Preaching 4)
Hey Trent! I am a fan of your work and just wanted to say that Jay goes into more detail on these simple objections which demonstrate his knowledge on these matters. Would love to see a debate or at least one with Ubi Petrus who would be a great interlocutor on the papacy.
@@icxcnika2037 I know. I see that they are choosing these small boiled down videos to pick apart rather than the other videos. Very strategic on their part.
@@namapalsu2364 if you type Vatican or papacy in the channel he has hours of videos looking at every possible angle. He uses Denzinger and other leading RC apologists, along with church history to make these arguments. However you may see him, I find his approach very charitable and the responses back form Catholics very lack luster in depth of argumentation.
I cam becoming Eastern Orthodox. I made a comment that was plainly wrong and upon studying the matter it is no longer defensible, eastern catholicism refutes rome.
How smart he is? That even the Vatican bank is now his own reason not to be catholic 😂😂😂. So smart RIGht 😂😂😂. I guess the orthodox church doesn't have banks Ahahah indeed his smart
He always seems to gravitate towards controversial groups. When he was Catholic, he wasn't just like a regular Catholic, he was SSPX. Now that he's Orthodox, he's not Greek Orthodox or even OCA, but he's Russian Orthodox, who are like the worst for ecumenical and political reasons. Also, they are in schism. He may have been Protestant initially, but something tells me he wasn't your average Protestant. He probably had a "Pope Is the ANTICHRIST; Repent From Your Paganism" blog or something like that. The guys got a knack for the theatrical, which is why I think he has a following.
The pope doesnt condemn the religious indifferentism he commits, the constant scandals in the Church, the global liturgical abuse in Catholic Churches, false ecumenism, corrupt cardinals and other church authorities, Catholic Church authorities praying in mosques and synagogues, sex abuse scandals in Catholic Churches worldwide, vatican bank money embezzlement and heresy after heresy with lgbt “catholics” and liberal progressives. The current “Pope” doesnt condemn any of that but instead condemns the traditional latin mass, which has to be constantly fought over for against the Catholic Church’s instructions, which is one of the only pious things Catholics somewhat have in order to maintain Church tradition and the “Pope” wants to remove even that last hint of preserved tradition. This is so satanic that I am absolutely appauled that Catholics are so blind and oblivious to this and pretend as if everything is okay. “Pope” Francis is the first born of Satan and an antichrist who intends to persecute Christ. We will pray for you Catholics so that Satan’s blindfold over you will be removed because it is only you that allow Satan’s church to have the power it does to damn so many souls to hell. The Holy Orthodox Church, in spite of the problems experienced, is solid in structure and has every solution possible to counteract heresy. Thank God for the exodus so many Catholics are experiencing, such as myself, in leaving the Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy. Truly the Orthodox Church has stood the test of time, survived invasion, destruction, internal schism, heresy and so much more because the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. This is because the Church has measures to ensure that members who are mislead into heresy by heretical bishops can be brought into track because of the structure of the hierarchs, the nature of Church tradition and canon law. Whereas anyone who truly follows Pope Francis to the letter is more likely to be condemned to hell due to swallowing of heresy after heresy.
@@eternalbyzantium262 all you say are accusations that do not mean a thing in some areas. I attend Norvos ordo and never come across those abuses where I go. All the parishes I have been. What you talk about here is just what you have heard others say not seen. I am Catholic meaning I am universal and for over 36 years I have attended Norvos ordo every place I have been on a Sunday away from my home parish. I never witnessed that trash you talk about. Be realistic. In my experience all Norvos ordo masses are the same. Small or high. The rest you mention above show that we are human and wherever there are humans sins can occur. I guess I am talking to an adult. Judas was among the 12. Peter erred, Thomas doubted and some of the first believers in christ walked away when he said eat my body. That's human nature. The trindetine Mass can be beautiful to you same as the Norvos ordo if you understand mass. Reverence is not about receiving Christ in the mouth that trashes a neighbour, that spouts evil words as much as the ha ds that touch evil. Purity of heart is required to receive the Eucharist and all of us can never be as pure. We all need Christ in our hearts to whip the devil out. The popes have apologised for scandals in the church and us the church are also harmed by the scandals. We are a communion of saints and within that communion we play a part of praying for the church and apologising too. In my opinion you are the holier than thou guy. Unfortunately.
@@eternalbyzantium262 so the pope must respond to the media like a toy dog and at the same time micro manage 1.2 billion Catholics? That is up to the individual Catholics themselves. He was correct to place that distribution of TLM in the hands of local bishops. Benedict's freedom of use of TLM was abused and highjacked by some trads and diabolically employed as a divisive tool.
I’m Eastern Orthodox and let me just say that Jay Dyer doesn’t represent Orthodoxy. He’s jumped from denomination and even different religions, and ridiculing everyone on the way. When he actually became Orthodox for reals, he promised he wouldn’t do online apologetics again. That only lasted a month. Priests everywhere find him irritating
It did. Yes, indulgences are indeed pharisaic and legalistic. On purgatory read "The Orthodox Response to the Latin doctrine of Purgatory" on the website of Orthodox Info, not sure if I can post the link without getting my comment removed. No Orthodox Christian who knows their theology denies the existence of a state of purification after death, the problem is the temporal payment and what the flames mean. Mortification of the flesh is fine as long as it's that and not the gnostic practice of literally beating/whipping your body up as it been practiced in the prelest ridden post-schism west. Actual mortification of the flesh is increased prayer, giving of alms, attending Church and rigerous fasting - which quite frankly - you papists don't even do anymore, not even in traditional circles. Even Wednesdays as fast days as recorded in the Didache isn't observed anymore in the papist sect for quite some time now. And don't even get me started on pre-communion fasting.
@@lordofhostsappreciator3075 1. I didn't say it didn't, I'm saying it's blatant hypocrisy for an EO 'apologist' to complain about that whilst rejecting the things which were made grievences of the Protestant movement, which all go back to their core error of radical sola fide. 2. Indulgences are binding and loosing sins. 3. Yes, Orthodox believe in purgatory; and it's not Catholic doctrine that "purgatorial" (simply Latin for "purifying") suffering is literal fire, or that people spend a certain amount of time in days there, or even that it's necessarily a 'place' (although I find it hard to concieve of a soul experiencing anything without being in a 'place'). They obviously don't spend in instant or that's not purgatory, nor can that be called an experience of any kind. It's also the same as saying there is no purgatory, because it makes it superfluous. They obviously don't spend and eternity, since that's hell. So there is a time experienced, we just don't know how it works. There is suffering, we just don't know what that looks like. However, it's possible that it looks exactly like the rich man in Hades. Gaslighting everyone by pretending to Protestants and everyone else that the Catholics invented Purgatory is stupid and sinful. 4. One can choose to mortify their flesh in any way they so please. Whatever helps you grow spiritually. That's like accusing monks of 'spurning healthy social life' by being secluded. Instead of recognizing that people can yield up freedoms and bodily comfort on purpose for spiritual gain. What about pouring ashes over your head, or sleeping on sackcloth? These are all forms of mortification of the flesh. What's a self-whipping? It's merely that but more instantaneous than a the drawn out sleeping on haircloth. The length of time is the only difference. 5. We do fast before Communion. And disciplines like this can be lifted, dropped, changed etc. at any time. Don't get me started on the EO pretending divorce and remarriage is not adultery. You also use leavened bread for the new Passover. What would St. Paul have to say about that, according to your logic? "Christ our Pasch is sacrificed, therefore let us keep the feast, not with the leaven of wickedness ... but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." What sense would that make if later that day he celebrated the Eucharist with leavened bread? Christ used unleavened bread for the first Eucharist. Point is we can have these 'gotcha' back and forths all day about some ancient now dropped practice in the early Church, and I'm sure I could produce many such comparable instances for the Orthodox if I were so inclined. A big one is the papacy which all the Fathers taught but which you gaslight yourselves into thinking it was just a primacy of honor, whatever that even means practically. Since the devil wants us to be at each other's throats: God bless you.
@@lordofhostsappreciator3075 The orthodox do not fast, dude. Y'all like hype this idea that you're all ascetics. Following a vegan diet a couple times per week is not fasting. Fasting is total abstention from food. Water-only. PROTESTANTS fast more for spiritual reasons than the Orthodox do.
Good stuff, but you can't just write off the David Wemhoff book. I managed to buy a hardcover copy of it, so it's still out there. Might be worth responding to in depth at some point.
Jay Dyer reminds me of a Orthodox version of Christopher Hitchens. Great with rhetoric but theres quite a few times where the substance of what he says is lacking.. He strawmans quite a bit.
@@namapalsu2364 Hitchens was shallow in his arguments and fell apart when it came to morality could never say that atheism lead to the 100's of million deaths of the last century.
As for the contraceptive issue because you have lack of understanding of spiritual illnesses, the reason an orthodoxy we have spiritual fathers is to gauge how your illness reflects on the individual persons. For example, there was a monk who drank a half a bottle of whiskey every day. All the other monks would judge him because the perfect role would be for him not to. When he died all were presents and two angels appeared and they saw his soul going up to heaven. They were astounded. They asked the abbot" why?" The Abbott answered when he was a child he was hiding with his parents from the Ottomans going through the fields and to not cry. His parents would feed him alcohol. When he came to the monastery, he would drink two bottles of alcohol. Throughout the years he lowered and lowered his consumption. He got all the way down to half a bottle. His charisma was he would never judge any other person. This is why this man was elevated to the most high. Through the grace of God, our spiritual fathers guide us.Each individuals illnesses are different. That's the prescription is different. Again, there is the perfect rule and then there's the reality of the illness. I find Catholics to be quite technical and they're examination of life. Very legalistic which reminds me of the Pharisees. My next door neighbor's Catholic. A wonderful man. I remember I bought coffee on Sunday and he started pointing his finger at me. I found that a little legalistic.
Protestants may protest the catholic but not eating the last supper/holy communion means one has forgotten Jesus and his instruction to eat his flesh and drink his blood.
Worth the whole two hours, thanks ! I used to follow Dyer, but I am a cradle Catholic and never questioned my catholicism. As a French Canadian Quebecer, I can't separate Québec from the Roman Catholic Church. Dyer doesn't get stuff like that, typical of Anglo-Americans. I liked his nasty debates with atheists and his estoteric/satanist film talks cos they're fun, but I quit listening to anything he did regarding Orthodoxie years ago. He's such an asshole to most people.
I don't know how familiar you are with Orthodox converts in America, but from my experience, a lot of them are Anglos who don't have much of a cultural connection to their heritage and come from not very religious households. They grasp on to zealotry to mask their lack of depth of knowledge of the faith.
@@OrangeXenon54 I am not super familiar with them in the US, but what you say sounds credible. For me, as a French Canadian, I am Catholic (with all the problems that entails) and that's it. I know a guy from here who "converted" to orthodoxy four years ago and lives in the smallish town where i live that has zero orthodox community. To me, it's just stupid. But if he lived in Montréal or Quebec City, he could run around with foreigners at their orthodox churches. That doesn't interest me.
I'm a protestant and I really appreciate Trent's rebuttal videos. Clears all the misconception about Catholicism. We can disagree but let's disagree with each other for what our actual differences are instead of some misapprehension. To all the viewers: sincerely pray and listen even as you watch this video or any other related video for that matter. May God bless us and lead us into all the truth!
@@tony1685 thanks for engaging! Really appreciate it. I'm a Baptist and stand clear on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. However, I've noticed many protestant are also not aware of what the protest was about and would rather choose to charicature Catholicism; and on that note I feel Trent really does a good work clearing things on those lines. Thank you friend for your contribution 🤗
@@tony1685 those men Trent relies on were alive before the Bible ever existed. It stands to reason, if we want to know what the early Church practices and taught, we need to read the text that we’re written by the early Christians.
He just offered to debate you in a structured format rather than mere dialogue. From looking at Trent’s debate history those run ~2-3 hours. HORN & DYER FALL 2021!
Dude he literally just offered to debate you. If you don't accept his challenge now then you expose yourself that you're a coward and you only pick and choose who you think would be an easier opponent. There's literally no valid excuse to turn down his offer now.
The Trent guy just did ask the Dyer guy for a debate, right? Well, let me reason over this. The first guy, Dyer, says “debate me, but I give you only a few days”. The other guy, Trent, says “I don’t debate like that, give me two months”. It is of good commonsense that people have to prepare for debates. Besides, I understand Trent has four children, writes a lot of books and has editorial obligations, has his job at Catholic Answers and has a busy schedule only for debates already scheduled in advance. Let us consider this. To ANY REASONABLE person, if we should see any cowardice whatsoever, it sounds like the guy Dyer was the one having problems with this. Personally I don’t believe it was the guy Dyer running away: he simply seems to have problems following strict rules and having etiquette. I believe the Dyer guys wants to debate sincerely. What I don’t understand is the one guy saying he asked for a debate but couldn’t accept the reasonable conditions the other guy asked for, and then coming to showboat. The question is: WILL YOU ACCEPT it? From Brazil 🇧🇷 with love.
Jay is using Protestant and Sedevacantist attacks that if true would disprove East Orthodoxy. So many of Trent’s defenses can just go, umm this applies to your church too, Jay.
Watch the video it happened like a half a dozen times. Important doctrine not dogmatically defined until late in Church history. Ambiguity of doctrine from tradition in its levels of authority and over time. The development of doctrine and changing of certain practices, example of Catholic stance on death penalty vs Orthodox stance on contraception.
@@evangelium5376 development of doctrine is necessary to support the modern orthodox use of icons as well as the use of liturgical spoons (there are more but these two are very obvious)
That would be a tu quoque fallacy. It's an appeal to hipocrisy. Let's assume you're right and Jays being hypocritical. Appealing to his hipocrisy is not a reason for us to believe your system has solved the problem. It's a form of deflection.
A Protestant pastor hated the Catholic Church so much he wrote a sermon,
“36 reasons why the Catholic Church is Wrong.”
Ten years later he converted to Catholic. When he told his 30y old son he was converting to Catholic, his son was so shocked he decided to read some catholic books to find out what made his dad take such a 180 turn. The son ended up becoming a Catholic Priest.
Now that is a miracle hallelujah
I’m so glad Trent is aware of the RUclips apologetics scene, is willing to debate and doesn’t live in the bubble of Catholic Answers
Are any of the guys in CA overly insular?
@@ultimateoriginalgod They mostly waste time debating idiot protestants who call in, and the problem with refuting them in that format is you're not going to rebut protestantism in a 3-5 min conversation with an imbecile with no theological knowledge. Better is to debate learned protestant scholars (if such a thing exists lol) or scholars in theology.
@@willl389 there are some very learned Protestant scholars. William Lane Craig, Greg Bahnsen, Ryan Reeves (I think he's Prot). Dr. Jordan Cooper (Lutheran) had a debate recently with Dr. Rob Koons (Catholic) on the topic of justification and I'd say Cooper won.
I say this as a Catholic with a lot of admiration for Dr. Koons.
@@glof2553 I mean to me at least I can't get past the obvious blunder of protestants in asserting the legitimacy of biblical text, but then rejecting the church authority writ large in sola scriptura. So I find it difficult to respect their positions, but it is true Bahnsen and Craig at least from my listening are intelligent men.
@@willl389 Bahnsen supported Sola Scriptura.
I’m a Catholic catechumen and I’m fourteen, my parents are atheist and the first thing I looked into was Protestantism well soon I found out that wouldn’t work. Than Eastern Orthodoxy honestly I think I would be orthodox if my mom didn’t stop taking me to liturgy’s. Than last but not least Catholicism I loved that we have Apostolic Succession (which orthodox have too). Now at fourteen (I started my conversion at 12) I will be catholic on the Easter Vigil!
May The most High and Triune God guard you on your conversion to His true Church. I will be valiantly praying for you.
@@Zach-ci4sz thank you 😊
Your hormones are too high to make these decisions at 14. I'm 36, and I remember what being 14 was like. I WAS A MORON. A lot can change for you in 20 years. I wouldn't rush into religion too fast.
@@charlesnunno8377 I think I’m fine, thank you
@@Zach-ci4sz You're so valiant, LOL Don't get a knee spasm.
I joined the RCC 3 years ago. It really opened my eyes up to all that Christianity has to offer. The history of the church and the writings and works of the saints. I feel that I could start studying every day for the rest of my life and just scratch the surface. Jay seems to really study this and Trent does as well obviously .
For a lay person, the church being the apostolic church is enough for me. If my family was ethnically orthodox at some point, maybe I would feel differently. I love the orthodox church, but I feel at home in the RCC.
I listen to these videos, waiting to hear a reason to leave the church and I have yet to. Most of the arguments against the church are based on bad behavior by members of the church. That may be a good enough reason for Jay, but I feel like it is a better reason to stay and keep fighting for orthodoxy and reverence in the RCC.
The separation of us on the earth saddens me, but I must focus on my salvation and my family's. I think we'll all be united soon enough.
Is RCC any way to refer to the body of Christ?
@@Kitiwake that's a good question. Probably not.
Anathema
Yes, there seems to be a lot of ad hominem arguments against the Papacy such as "well this Pope was evil...so...." These are really sophoromoric arguments. Everyone is aware that Scripture is full of issues from the start. They seem to want to place an unattainable standard and place it over history, and if anything is out of place, they say it isn't true. This is simply unrealistic. By the way, I'm currently looking at the Roman church and am becoming more convinced all the time, thanks to guys like Trent.
@@Kitiwake yess. But i doubt to do the same with orthodox knowing there is no way body of christ divorcing its part each other. Jerusalem x antioch, moscow x constantinople x ukrainian. Not so body of christ after all. Glad u brought that up.
I am a protestant that has been reading the Church Fathers and trying to understand Orthodoxy for the last year or so. I hadn't really given Catholicism a second look because of all the faults I perceived it had. Over the last week I have listened to more than a half dozen of Trent's rebuttals and have found him easy to understand and often very persuasive. I tried to listen to Dyer in the past but he comes across as so arrogant sometimes I can't stomach him. I still don't know if I'll eventually become Orthodox, Catholic or stay Protestant but I appreciate Trent's hard work and loving attitute in his videos (enough that I purchased the Gold Logos (verbum) Bible software package last night lol ). Keep up the good work :)
@Matthew,
My friend,
After reading your comment, I as a Roman Catholic have a simple idea for you to consider, it's called by its acronym of: "KISS" or Keep it simple stupid".
Here are some simple reasons given by our Lord:
MATTHEW 16:18-19
18. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the powers of death SHALL NOT prevail against it.
19. I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Jesus' only option to the world is CATHOLIC UNITY, not man-made protestant divisions or Orthodox static inaction or uninvolment in the unity demanded by Christ.
▪︎JOHN 17:21-23
21. so that they may ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that THEY MAY BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE,
23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.
St. Paul repeats the same message for your sake.
▪︎EPHESIANS 4:3-6
3. Striving to preserve the UNITY of the spirit through the bond of peace:
4. One Body and One Spirit, as you were also called to the One hope of your call
5. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism
6. One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
The one and only Church founded by Jesus has a Catholic or universal mission to go to all corners of rhe world with a lifetime guarantee from God:
▪︎MATTHEW 28:16-20
16. The eleven Disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18. Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19. GO therefore and make disciples of All Nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20. and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
The word "Catholic" specifies the mission of the Church to go to all corners of the world. Such word started to be used in the latter part of the first century. It was found written in the works of St. Ignatius of Antioch; bishop and martyr, as well as disciple of the Apostles Peter, John and Paul.
Ch. 8 (Excerpt).
" Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is The Catholic Church".
May God bless your discernment.
As an Orthodox Christian, I would say stay away from Dyer. He's a smug cancer. Have you tried Father Spyridon? In an case, if you remain RC or give EO a shot, God bless! :-)
The St Ignatius quote is revealing.
Wherever Christ is, there is the Catholic church. But as Jesus said, wherever two or three worship in my name, I am there. This obviously implies that all faithful followers worshipping Jesus are part of the Catholic church, and not just the Roman Catholic hierarchy.
@@christophermorton6390
Chris,
Remember the Apostolic "hierarchy" included Judas and 11 other who responded to Jesus, some dieing in horrendous ways. Don't make blanket condemnations. God wants everyone to ve saved and will provide the graces, even though some will reject him.
The Catholic Church is composed of saints and sinners who want to be saints...
God bless.
@@joecastillo8798 Quite right. I'm not sure how you read condemnation in what I said. I'm saying that the communion of the universal church includes all those who worship Jesus, not just Roman Catholics. It is rather Catholics who condemn any who do not submit to the pontificate, as 'there is no salvation outside of the true church'.
24:42 The Church actually has an office to answer questions regarding papal interpretation. So if a layperson is unsure how to interpret or understand something, he can ask his priest, who then can ask his bishop (if needed), who then can ask this office (if needed), which then can ask the pope (if needed). Dyer approaches the question of interpretation like a protestant, ignoring the mechanisms for authoritative interpretation and dialogue that are already in place.
Orthodoxy is the original Protestant movement. Everyone else copied them. 😆
@@ntmn8444 I have more sympathy for Orthodoxy than Protestantism though, and at least they don't abandon Tradition and the Church Fathers.
@@phoult37 Considering the Church Fathers and Tradition point to the Pope, hard disagree there.
Your argument is self defeating because you concede to the circularity... This is a point that has been addressed multiple times... The problem is how do I ultimately know that I interpret what the pope says correctly... My priest? Where does he know from? The bishop? What about him? The office? They from the pope. So it goes back to him, I know I interpret him correctly because he says so... This is a circularity that shouldnt happen, Dyer says.
@@ratio518 It's not circular. It's a final, visible authority on Earth. It's literally what you're asking for.
You have no way of knowing if you're interpreting the Bible correctly. You can appeal to Tradition all you want, but when someone disagrees with you on Tradition, you can only schism over the difference, because you have no higher authority to adjudicate the issue.
Catholics do. We appeal to the Pope. The Pope responds. If it's not clear, we ask for clarification. We can ask for clarification until it's clear. Once it's clear, it's clear. The problem is, as humans, and using our language, nothing is ever as clear as a heretic would want. so we just keep going and asking more questions.
There is no circle here. There is just the reality of how learning as a human being works. The fact that this is somehow confusing to you is legitimately scary.
I know everybody loves to say Jay is too much of a meanie to debate. But as a catholic myself I would LOVE to see Trent debate Jay. I’ve always wanted to see that.
Everyone. I am a Brazilian Catholic. But the point is not being mean: it is not respecting rules and a simple set of moral principles ordered to relational behavior at the lower level; we lawyers call it “etiquette” or social rule. With the moral norm and the legal/juridical norm, we have the very concept of ethics in the threefold normative view, that means the realm of the “ethos” or the ways to order our conduct (deontology). For a debate, I think it must be moderated therefore, so as to avoid what he did with Erick Ybarra. Let it happen!
Jay Dyer has demonstrated his behaviour in previous ""debates"" if you can call it that. Shouting over your opponent and saying "epistemology" a hundred times doesn't make for dignified watching.
That's why it was a refreshing pleasure to watch Fr. Patrick debate, who has a PhD in Ecclesiology, and apart from those seeking internet blood sports and cheap polemics, is clearly a much more formidable apologist for Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@xXXDeadlyHavocXXx lol, you mean like any formal debate where people are trying to dodge the questions being asked. People who are too scared to debate because the other guy is mean are weak and don't deserve the time of day anyway. It's just words you absolute pansies. Maybe if you undestood what episyomology is, you'd understand why he had to repeat himself. Clearly you need to hear it a hundred more times, because you're still not getting it
@@michaels775 That's a bullshit justification that could only be concocted by Dyer's goons.
Debate has to be respectable. If one doges argument then the other party points it out without the need for mockery, berating and insults which are the tool of the devils.
And people don't want to debate Dyer because of his bad track record.
Jay has given Trent props on his debate reviews but yes a debate between them would be great
Thanks, Trent, for these breakdowns! I’m a convert from Protestantism, and spent time treading water in the Bosporus before swimming the Tiber. Dyer’s videos/blogposts on Protestantism lead me toward the EOC, and as Proverbs says, “He who states his case first seems right,
until the other comes and examines him.” While his videos on the Papacy and Divine Simplicity seemed convincing at first, it was ironically digging deeper into Eastern Orthodoxy that I began, especially with Fr. John Meyendorff, that I began to realize the diversity of views with the EOC on these questions.
While at the time I didn’t have detailed breakdowns of Dyer, I did find quite a view resources on not only the authentic Catholic doctrines of the Papacy, Purgatory, and Divine Simplicity, but I also started corresponding with a former-ROCOR hieromonk and a former-Antiochian priest, both of whom hadn’t only studied at Orthodox seminaries, but also spent time on Mt. Athos. Both men helped me understand the charism of the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome, as well as the dilemmas and controversies in contemporary Orthodoxy that are just as troubling, if not more, than the turmoil in the RCC.
Eventually, it was the Holy Spirit who led me into the Catholic Church, and a pursuit of deeper communion with Our Blessed Savior. I found deep resonance with the Western Catholic spirituality, hymnody, and liturgy, and I was deeply attracted by the missionary spirit of the Catholic Church in the West.
Would you care to share any resources that helped you lead you to the Catholic Church. I am currently a catechumen at an Orthodox church and through my thoughts I wanted to give Catholicism a chance at defending itself before I become a full member of the Orthodox faith. This would be greatly appreciated!
That's sad honestly
Nice try Francis
@@tyrob2218 well... what happened?
I was raised in Orthodoxy and converted to Catholicism after studying these issues. God bless
@@nicholasgeranios I’m considering leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy. What made you become Catholic please?
On the issue of artificial birth control: Before (1960) ALL Christian denominations and the Catholic church deplore artificial contraception. Now, it is ONLY the Catholic Church that condemns unnatural birth control
Didn't the anglican church accept contraception in the 1920s?
@@MikeyJMJ
This is correct.
False. The Orthodox Church also condemns this. Fr Josiah Trenham has some good videos on this.
@@devinlawson2208 Orthodox church has no pope that will make it a doctrine
@@junacebedo888 Popes don’t make doctrines. The doctrine is received from the Apostles and is passed down (Jude 3). Our doctrine is in the works and lives of the holy saints, which are confirmed in councils of orthodox Bishops.
Been waiting for this one for a while.
Thank you for actually engaging with Jay instead of writing him off as “mean” and hand waving his depth of theology that he offers in opposition to Rome. I appreciate your willingness to engage with many traditions, although we don’t come to the same conclusions at this point. ☦️
wow look at trent taking on the big guns of Orthodox Church, lets gooo Trent
meh, Jay Dyer is a histrionic pseudo protestant. Taking on Fr John Trentham or Fr Patrick would be a harder task.
@@aloyalcatholic5785 yea but to normal catholics dyer seems like a big deal
If Jay is big guns then the orthodox church is in serious trouble.
@@slavicgypsy5535 thats bc they have been in serious trouble for the past 1000 yrs
@@aloyalcatholic5785 as an ex Protestant I strongly disagree with Jay bring anything close to Protestant
“Byzantine Catholics reject purgatory” bro what 😂😂😂😂
Actually, if you go to Byzantine Catholic blogs and threads, you'll see there's like a challenge to see who can be the most Orthodox while still in communion with Rome. Byzantine Catholics consider themselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome." This is acceptable language. Even the UGCC primate Sviatoslav Shevchuk embraces it, but rejecting doctrines and dogmas is a problem within the community. I've encountered a few, who even suggests that we interpret every council after Nicea 2(787) as general councils and not as ecumenical councils, which would undo almost everything Catholics believe definitively. I'm writing about this right now, and I think the root goes back to a misreading of Unitatis Redintegratio, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Orientale lumen, Ut Unum Sint, and other authoritative texts that were sincere, but meant to be ecumenical. Acknowledging the legitimacy of the Orthodoxy's ancient traditions was never meant to be a rejection of the Catholic position, but Greek Catholics treat it like a special exemption at times. Bp. Nicholas James Samra of the Melkite rite, for example, I was told has been know to say, "We have almost everything in common with the Orthodox, except for full communion; and almost nothing in common with the Latin Church, except for full communion."
Perhaps one of the most notable examples is the 1996 synod from the Melkite Greek Catholic Church where Archbishop Zoghby stated “I believe in everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches… I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome, in the limits recognized to the first among the bishops by the holy fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.” (cnewa.org/magazine/healing-the-church-of-antioch-the-greek-melkite-initiative-30753/). Naturally, how someone reconciles this statement with the current Papal teachings of Roman See, seems to be the major question. Of which there seem to be a common argument.
Trent is Eastern Catholic but he seems to be on the traditional, dogmatic Catholic side of things.
@@supercoolbrian replying to this to refer to later
I also know orthodox who don't really believe christ is present in the eucharist........ See where I'm going with this?
@@jonathansoko5368 show me one orthodox saint saying what you claim about the Eucharist
@@jonathansoko5368 - yes but there's EVEN more Catholica who don't believe
I used to be a paid subscriber to Dyer 4-5 years ago. I stopped listening when he became unsufferable regarding Catholics. I still sometimes listen to their movie reviews. I know there are hours of content of Jay going on about how bad Catholicism is and I have heard many of them. I was never convinced because I am Catholic from birth, it is intrinsically linked to my heritage/identity and what I hear them describing in Orthodoxie is almost exactly like a trad Catholic mass and culture.
But whatever, I know they'll say somthing about essence-energy distinction and what not, talk about how priests are pedos, et al., as if Orthodoxie didn't have many of the same modernist problems. Aside from theological details, what I notice is that Catholics in my circles (trad and Novus Ordo, I am in both worlds, as I was raised in the Novus Ordo, but I am more trad in my own life for the past several years) generally have a sympathetic view of Orthodoxe people and bear no ill will toward them, but all the Orthodoxe folks on the internet are so hateful towards Catholics (and are generally just dismissive of Protestants in a kinder way). The couple of Orthodoxe people I know in real life are all ethnics of the Coptic, Russian or Greek churches (I know one French Canadian who attends Orthodoxe mass and doesn't hate on Catholics).
I've also noticed that a lot of these Orthodoxe converts on the internet are new to the faith and from Protestant backgrounds (so anti-Catholic from the get-go), so time will tell regarding their seriousness. I live in Québec and I don't think catholicism can be separated from our nationalism and history (I also agree theologically with it and don't really buy the arguments that Dyer makes about how Catholicism is responsible for the decline of the West). It's a big topic and I'm not going to get into it on a youtube comment, but I will say that rootless Americans tend to more easily attach themselves to stuff that hasn't much to do with who they are/were. I know there are French Canadians like Jon Pageau who are Orthodoxe and whose family left the Catholic church after Vatican II (to be Protestant, of course), but at least Jon doesn't hate on Catholics (his French language channel is co-hosted with a Catholic, but rootless anglophones wouldn't know this, as unilingualism limits them somewhat). I find Jay unlistenable now (I used to be a big fan). I think Jamie is lovely and I still like listening to her.
Basically, what I want to say to Orthodoxe people in the internet is this: have some charity when you are hating on the Catholics and dismiss us as in some kind of devil church. Take a look at yourselves and how you're acting.
Yeah Dyer is rude I was debating going to orthodox but im now leaning towards Catholicism the only thing is I don’t like the problems im the church and confused about Mary
@@cw8790 I am sure the Orthodox church has many of the same problems, but we are more unaware of them, since it's mostly in Eastern Europe and not in languages we understand. It is also very ethnic. Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, etc. Catholic means universal. This Church has always been full of imperfect people and infiltrators.
I feel you’re not being too charitable to anglosaxons in this post mate. God bless.
@@vaseman3639 Well, I don't really like them, in general. It's true. Globalisation expresses itself in their language: globish. They've done nothing but ruin Québec since 1759. But I am sure you are a nice person, on a personal level.
@@cw8790 What about Mary are you confused about? God bless.
As a Catholic if you attend Mass every week and attend on all the holy days of obligation during the year receive the sacrament of reconciliation and penance on a regular basis take care of the needy and less fortunate whenever possible and very important try your best to commit to saying the rosary on a regular basis and also ignore the politics of religion and ignore the inevitable scandal that is brought to the church buy fallible humans if you don't like what an individual priest or Bishop is preaching or sermonizing ignore it attended different Mass or church if necessary if you do these simple things I promise you your faith will never waver we need to take care of our own salvation first
Brace for impact
Lmao rounds on the way
Damn straight
Absolutely DECIMATED by Jay ruclips.net/video/BJnrz7U9ugU/видео.html
This is gonna be a spicy one!
Get your Pepto Bismol.
🌶️ 🥵
Thank you, Trent, for this and for ALL your other responses to attacks/criticisms of the Catholic Church. Agnostic through my 40's, I encountered Christ, and my journey into the Catholic Church was long and "mystical." Having listened to this and various other attacks on the Catholic Church, I am working to express my thoughts. Of all the people with RUclips channels addressing these issues, yours is the MOST impressive in the thought/research/love in working to explain/evaluate/invite dialogue that brings everyone to a better understanding of Christ's Church. I pray many blessings of Christ on you personally and on your work on this channel and other venues. God Bless!
Im in my 40s to brother, i grew up a protestant Christian, but i became an atheist later, thats how i lived most of my life.
I jus recently came back to the Lord, and became a protestant again, but i didnt commit myself to a church, bc I knew there was a problem, it is the reason why I became an atheist in the first place.
But this time i knew 100% there was a God, and ik it was Christianity 100%, even though that's a diff story, but it's amazing how now I look at my RUclips feed from a year ago, and I see all the pastors, and teachers I was listening to, and how i was deceived, well long story short I'm coming home to Rome.
God bless u brother 🙏🏼💯😇🇻🇦
@@onlylove556 Welcome home🌻
@@gardenladyjimenez1257 ❤😇💯🇻🇦
I am ex-Eastern Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox church I went to didn't even evangelize. They just relied on the annual Greek Food Festival to draw people in. There was basically no evangelical zeal among them. Nice people, but there was also a noticeable Greek clique. Like, if you weren't Greek you weren't part of the club. Their bishops tried to fix the jurisdictional mess but since no one is in charge it ultimately can never be solved. I left around the time of the failed Council of Crete. Their autonomous churches as a whole simply can not function together with the loss of their Pope and reduced power role of the Ecumenical Patriarch. And it's got worse even since they effectively divided into two sects regarding the whole Kiev thing. Thank God I left for the Catholic Church in time before they turned into 2 denominations; I think I would have been really heartbroken.
Hmm, this is certainly a consideration.
Are you Texan lone star on r/Catholicism?
@@dwong9289 ... :]
@@aahlstrom93 I see your responses everywhere, glad you are part of the church! Ave Maria! Viva Christi Rey!
I honestly thought Orthodox was just an ethnic religion like Judaism for the longest time.
Loved watching this from New Zealand 🇳🇿 You are Awesome Trent. God bless you and keep it up! 🙏😊👍
I’m so happy to see Trent rebuking jay. Epic cross over.
I would like to see that too...can you share the link?
Fargeron Macres 🤣 exactly my point
Fargeron Macres 🤜🏻
While refusing debate because he’s “soo mean!”😢😂
after being a protestant for 22 years, and about to convert to Catholicism ... i can honestly step back and say the protestant realm is very anti-authority, like teenagers. It seems to be a realm of rebellion rather than a submission to Christ and follow the biblical layout of authority in the church. i was the same way, i didn't want some body of authority to have say over my own biblical understanding. it's pride, plain and simple.
THIS.
I've been talking to my protestant friend about my recent conversion to Catholcism. His biggest hang up seems to be just that. Authority. He sounds like a rebellious teen. Who can't trust the government or any "powerful" group with influence on politics.
ehh its not pride. At least not for me. My main issue is that idea if Indulgence before Martin Luther, the forced removal of Native or Indigenous kids from famikies in the early 1900's, the sexual assault issue of the 90's yet say the Bible is doctored or that its THE CHURCH thats the authority is the problem.
When it comes to our souls, the name of God being presented in the world, ita hard to say the Catholic Church is an Authority on God's behalf given the atrocities.
@kuraikenshi2349
Weak argument against Catholicism.
Biblically, we knew that wolves would come among the sheep. There are evil people in EVERY church.
The Catholic Church is so large and universal that it's bound to have some wicked traitors.
Remember, 1 Judas among 12 apostles didn't invalidate anything that Christ taught the deciples.
@@blappappa3836 This is an internal critique against the Rome and the East.
Syllogism 1:
P1: The Great Schism occurred in 1054, leading to the separation of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches who both have apostolic succession, The Holy Spirit, and were one church.
P2: The theological, liturgical, and doctrinal disputes were central reasons for the schism.
C: Therefore, the one united church came into different interpretations, as evidenced by the divergent theological and doctrinal positions that led to the split between the Orthodox and Catholic churches in 1054.
Syllogism 2:
P1: The Holy Spirit will guide The Church's interpretations into truth.
P2: The conclusion of Syllogism 1 is true.
C (a) Therefore, The Holy Spirit guides the church to different truths
C (b) Therefore, The Holy Spirit doesn't guide the church's interpretations.
Thank you for this one! I remember a few months ago looking for a Catholic critique of EO, and the only thing I found was Vaticancatholic's videos. Good to see an orthodox Catholic critique.
The Reason and Theology channel have many debates and discussions on EO and Catholicism.. from a Catholic Perspective. Highly recommend!!
Vatican catholic is a sedevacantist group, so they should not be endorsed.
I do happen to like those videos they do of EO, but do not endorse their overall message.
@@noah366 yes. I'm subbed to that and watch the streams 🙂
@@TheChunkyCrusader I think that’s why the commentator said its good to find an *orthodox* catholic take on EO. Meaning he understands that vaticancatholic are not in line with the church (especially since they’re sedes)
@@piousthepious Indeed. I found out later that the so-called "Most Holy Family Monastery" was a heretical sedevacantist pseudo-Benedictine group. There was a French channel, "Le Lys et la Croix", that had made a video about them (+ a critique of absolute divine simplicity and a mention that he had become EO), or another French one, Archidiacre, which exposes them in a video. And as I was saying, I'm happy to find a video from a proper Catholic channel engaging with EO claims. It would be very helpful to someone envisioning to enter the Church, but hesitating between Rome and Constantinople.
Trent you’re keeping me strong in my faith. Please keep doing rebuttals and doing Gods work 🙏
Soon this comment section will look like a battlefield, just wait for the Jay Dyer fans
*intense music plays* "HOLD THE LINE BOYS"
@@CrazyPenguin236 Sabaton's The Last Stand.
The Dyer Cultists.
You rock, Trent!
Jay Dyer is one of the great Catholic Apologists. Most people are so turned off by his childish attitude they come over to the One True Faith.
Thanks, Jay!
"That guy is a meanie and immature at times so we're going to disregard everything he says and go for these guys who always speak in a professional and mature manner so obviously everything they say must be true."
Admitting you guys would fall victim to snake oil salesmen is not the "gotcha" argument you think it is.
@@thehammared5972 and this isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.
I pointed out one of his flaws. I can put his arguments to side for a moment and comment on his character. Just because I didn't write a novel discrediting his claims, doesn't mean I cannot address them separately.
He has very bad character. Did you know he is friends with a Wiccan and promotes a Wiccan music production company? Jay also loves contraception. He is anti natural law and part of the occult
@@thehammared5972 ruclips.net/video/XRLOQUnw-FY/видео.html
I'll let Jay talk about his pagan and occult ties. I shouldn't put words in his mouth
@@Noah-cm6ek 🤣 “put his arguments to side” your pope, infallible leader of your church, literally prays with Hindus and Muslims and you have the audacity to talk about character. Hate to break it to you dummy but jay’s character has nothing to do with the validity of his Roman Catholic criticisms. Imagine being so dumb and hypocritical you think the validity of Jay’s beliefs depend on his character. Orthodoxy doesn’t make the stupid mistake Roman Catholics do by basing their entire faith on the actions off one man.
Thanks to Jay Dyer my disbelief in Catholicism and the foolishness of the Pope have grown stronger!
Jay may be wrong about the Magisterium and the Papacy, but he understands youtube entertainment dynamic. It's fun to see him get worked up about things. I know people complain about it, but some of those same people are like half his audience.
Tbh its hilarious if you join his discord server and he goes to debate someone and he just starts yelling at them. It's very entertaining and half the time the people who join to debate him are just complete trolls or militant atheists and its, admittedly, fun to listen to Jay just smoke them 😂😂
@@curlyfro97 discord servers are for those who live to sow discord - hence their name.
I am Catholic, and I like watching/listening to CAs and Pints with Aquinas, but Jay is leagues more entertaining than them. He is just a normal guy. It is very cringe that Trent feels the need to disclaim that Jay is mean and unprofessional. Matt Fradd is even gayer. "I will not give Jay Dyer a platform." Exactly to your point, they think he is toxic for getting heated. That's why we like him. EMBRACE THE RIVALRY!!!! I ain't converting to orthodoxy, but can we get some normal dudes for Catholic content
@@Luke-xt6pk Well said!
@@Luke-xt6pk I can respect Matt Fradd and Eric Ybarra not wanting to debate him. He's aggressive and rude(and intentionally so). It's a reasonable thing to avoid. But what annoys me is some apologists act like it's a moral imperative that they ignore Jay while they go on to interview people with views much more problematic views. Like Matt Fradd interviewed Dave Rubin and Michael Lofton interviewed Bart Erhman, David Bentley Hart, and even Muslim apologists. These people are more civil, and more enjoyable to talk to, so I get it, and respect it, but what bothers me is Jay's idealogy and personhood is being presented as evil incarnate, when it's really just hilariously/entertainingly juvenile. In my opinion, Jay gets mad because he's trying "admonish the sinner" and "instruct the ignorant." These are spiritual acts of MERCY. Manners and respect matter, also, but it seems like they now matter more than ideals.
Big respect for the video Trent.
Trent, you could sit down and debate Dyer on these issues. It would be pretty good for all, I think.
Yea he commented on jay’s comments to his contact for one. It’s in dyer court
Trent offered a debate challenge to Dyer in the video. If he turns this offer down when he'll expose himself to the world that he's a coward who picks and chooses who he thinks would be an easy opponent.
Dyer will just end up insulting and interrupting like usual. what's the point in that?
Prediction.. jay will make the conditions untenable, then tell his followers Trent is a coward
@@billj6109 Let's not so hasty. We will wait and see before judging who is to blame if the debate does not come about. It might be Trent that makes the conditions untenable.
""Catholic Apologetics is just defending the Pope"
Uh yeah, that's kind of the point of an apologist. We wouldn't need to play defense if they weren't always objecting. If the speaker is on the offense against dissenting religions, they are no longer acting as an apologist.
I'm lds and have been investigating the Catholic church because my family had me baptized in the Catholic church. So I'm investigating my roots because everyone in my family is Catholic.
Oh my gosh, Dyer's arguments are sooooo STOOOOOPID. "Sola Papa"? "I follow Augustine, I follow Aquinas"? No Catholic even thinks like that, let alone talks like it.
"I follow Augustine. I follow Aquinas". His Protestantism is showing.
Well I'm sorry, but technically you do follow Augustine, since his erroneous thinking on Original Sin is the basis of some of the Roman Catholic dogmas. Ideas such as the Immaculate Conception, Indulgences, Treasury of Merit, can be traced back to the foundation of Augustine's errors.
@@IrishEddie317 You are parroting the Paris School and Romanides. Such nonsense was utterly unknown in Orthodoxy until a few centuries ago. It is an a-historical novelty, a theological innovation. But when you swallow polemical talking points whole without actually studying history, that's what you get.
Still howling about Dyer after all these years Diane? If that is who you actually are.
I had a zillion questions and doubts. I wanted to be certain I had found the Body of Christ. It was obvious almost immediately that it was either the Roman Catholic church or some tiny outfit somewhere that I'd never heard of. I began to look closely at the Catholic church and after literally thousands of hours of investigation, studying and learning, it became crystal clear that she is the church founded and sustained by Christ. She is the real deal. Where Christ is. Where love awaits us.
This video was extremely informative for me. I am not a Catholic not because I reject Catholicism necessarily, but because I have so many questions about it and I don’t necessarily believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches so I might be wrong. My big worry is that if I am wrong I would hate to be separated from Jesus for eternity simply due to lack of information, but Trent here seems to point out that that won’t be the case. It is possible I may still become a Catholic someday if I’m convinced of it, but it is nice to know that Catholics don’t necessarily look down on me or exclude me from salvation simply to ignorance
I was in the same position and have converted. Take your time and study these issues and watch some debates. Jimmy Akin has some great ones against Protestant scholars. Once you see the error in Protestant doctrine (which originated out of the 1600s, much of it unheard of by the early Christian’s) you’ll be able to see the truth the Catholicism much more clearly. Praying for you 🙏
God bless you Trent
I love it God bless you brother Trent & Catholic answers 💯 Catholic 🙏📿📖⚔️🛡️😇
I think the best analogy for understanding Jay Dyer is that he's a PC with several terabytes worth of storage drives, paired with a shitty CPU. Tons of data; but an inability to process it well.
@C lmao Well I'll gladly go into the weeds for a bit on Divine Simplicity if you really want to. Metaphysics is my wheelhouse. Or we could go into the Fathers or St Gregory Palamas--though I'm still versed in these, it's not my "main thing," so to speak. Genuinely, I'm up for the discussion if you wanna have it. 👍
@C I was actually just yesterday thinking of reviving a Catholic philosophy channel like that which I made way back from when I was in high school haha Maybe this is the sign I should 😂
Good analogy. It seems he's like that because of arrogance... Unfortunately he doesn't really check the real Catholic arguments and attacks a strawman, it would be better even for his channel to be more humble and consider he can make mistakes
Perfect lol
Nail on the head. Knowledgeable - but not very smart imo.
Why is Trent always so awesome?
If anyone is awesome then God alone deserves the credit.
Man I have to say that I do like Jay Dyer, he really holds no punches to the Church, many of his objections I've had myself and there are still a lot of them that I do not have a clear answer to, but I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe in his church the Only Catholic and Apostolic Church.
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Does it worry you that dyer seems to change his religion every few years? He also seems to like wicca. He publicly promoted wiccan rappers and appeared in their videos.
That's intellectual dishonesty.
@@jonathansoko5368 Oh, does he? I wonder who that wiccan rappers would be? And what if his path to the true faith led him through other denominations previously? Is he infallible? And since we're on it, does it worry you Papa Frank is considering blessing gay unions?
Dyer's been a Catholic twice, he's now an Orthodox, he was also a former Protestant...next week he’ll be Mormon. Orthodox scholars don’t take him seriously why doesn’t he speak at Orthodox church’s or Orthodox Seminaries. He doesn’t because he’s an Orthobro taken seriously by Protestant converts that have always hated Catholicism
He doesn’t speak at seminaries cause he’s not a scholar. Scholars tend to be specialists who aren’t simply trying to prove another denomination wrong. All of his anti Catholic arguments don’t come from Protestantism. It all comes from 20th century orthodox theology which was very anti Catholic ie Lossky, Yannaras, Romanides, Florensky
I think it would be fun if he went mormon
@@tony1685 Go'on outta here, boy!
🤣 by far the best comment. I’m 🤣
The confused mind of Jay Dyer Calvinist --> Catholic --> Eastern Orthodoxy --> Catholic --> considering Talmudic Judaism --> Eastern Orthodoxy.
Q. What is he really?
A. An occultist.
Great video as always Trent. One minor quibble, at around 1hr38mins I think your response to Jay's accusation of irrevence probably warranted a longer answer (probably a whole separate video in fact). I think it's perfectly fine to acknowledge that some irreverence has crept in and that more needs to be done about it. Simply dismissing it as a "liturgical winter" is inadequate in my view.
Apart from that, please keep up the great work. God Bless
Hm, I just realized why I like Trent and Matt Fradd the most among the YT apologetics due to the huge difference between the tone of Trent and Dyer. Dyer sounds quite arrogant and talks down on anybody or anything he disagrees with while Trent can respectfully and humbly point out the points he feels don't have a standing. Unfortunately several Catholic apologetics are like Dyer. I cannot watch Reason& Theology anymore since he has gotten more and more arrogant in his tone, especially in his community posts. Taylor Marshall has also kind of gone rogue and I have the feeling both R&T and TM have a strong sense that they're smarter than everyone else and only they hold the correct opinion. Trent is a breath of fresh air in the Catholic RUclips scene.
Orthodox here, loved this video have seen his first video and this response, at some point I’ll watch his response to this. Super interesting, may God bless us and guide us all!
Finally formidable opponent for jay!
I saw on the EO discord that they saw many flaws in this, waiting for a response!
@@science_is_fake_and_gay2710 Do they name specific concrete flaws?
Formidable opponent? Jay Dyer? Formidable? You can't be serious.
Always funny how there are always “many flaws” whenever someone critiques Jay. But when asked to name any concrete flaw - crickets.
@@dwong9289 Whose flaws? Jay Dyer?
He's wrong on multiple accounts (as Trent showed) and he swears and curses.
I love Jay. He helped me to convert. HOWEVER, Trent, you are the man! Love your work. I REALLY hope that you guys can speak at some point. That would be great!
Edit: And I’m referring to a FORMAL debate here like he has done with prominent Muslim apologists. A lot of people like the free form dialogue/debates. But to be honest, i honestly feel Jay is at his best when it’s formal. It keeps everyone honest and is much easier to analyze after all is said and done.
His debate with the Sheikh was perfectly civil.
@@eternalbyzantium262 as was his debate with Shabir! People love the off the cuff Dyer (as do I sometimes), but he is absolutely brutal with his formal debates. And it’s not like they can’t do a cross examination. Things are sure to get at least somewhat spicy during that part of the debate. I don’t know, I just prefer formal over his discord debates.
@@eternalbyzantium262 his talk with eric was awfully uncivil.
@@zeloraz8101 There’s a lot of history that goes into that, though. Erik and Michael have been just as uncharitable to Jay as he has been towards them. Plus, Erik specifically had dodged Jay for two years prior to that debate, and then he tried to say that Jay was too scared to speak with him. The one major difference between R&T and Dyer is that the former does uncharitable stuff behind the scenes and then act like innocent Saints online. Whereas Jay doesn’t really care about bashing them over Twitter and RUclips. At least we can say that Jay didn’t try to have R&T deplatformed, nor did he try to get any of their priests defrocked. That stuff was just unacceptable.
Ama need to see some video proof then because I have not see Erik be uncharitable to him. And considering how Jay is uncharitable to other people, in past dialogues i understand why he would not want to debate him.
and that's a lot of accusations, ama need to see some proof.
Debating a few Protestants myself online, I get the feeling that they sit around in their study groups trying to confirm why they are not Catholic. If they see us as the enemy then they don't have to fight amongst themselves and argue over all their convoluted doctrines.
This seems true in my experience as well. Protestants disagree with eachother on a wide range of issues and I rarely see them critically examine their own beliefs, yet they have a mutual hatred for Catholicism.
@@existentialzenji918 The devil can not go agaisnt himself the devil have divided all those protestants denomination to make it seeing he is not behind them, but look the devil is in the detail they all hate the catholic church and promoted the hate against the church
I’m a Protestant who debates Catholics. I’m one of the few. Protestants as a collective spend little time thinking about the RCC. Don’t overstate the importance of the RCC in the lives of Protestants. As for hating RCs, there are a few who get rabid about the RCC, but the ones I’ve met are mostly ex-RCs who feel they were deceived by the RCC. I love RCs and have many friends and family who are RCs. Wonderful folks. Only a couple have gotten deep on RCC theology with me, and the rest have just agreed with me about Jesus as the focus. I get along famously with RCs but simply disagree with them on key theological points.
@@existentialzenji918Funny, that's literally my experience with Catholics.
That seems like a feeling you have, not anything with evidence behind it.
I feel like many young Westerners are flocking towards Eastern Orthodoxy because they see it as the real thing, whereas Catholicism seems to have lost its Spirit. But it is exactly this what we need to strive for: To become a living, faithful, God-fearing body of Christ on earth. This is coming from someone who grew up Evangelical, lost his faith, then went through a short Orthodox ‘phase’ and finally joined the Catholic Church. Orthodoxy was Christianity as I loved to imagine it (because it was all so new and exciting), but becoming Catholic and facing the reality of the Church beyond my boy-ish imaginations is the real deal. Finally, I can freely confess that I believe in Jesus Christ and that I am part of his church, with all my shortcomings and failures I am loved.
Thank you Trent for the work you’re doing and for your patience and compassion!
Well when we are finding in Pi, Eulers formula, the fine structure constant and the Golden Ratio all in the Greek its pretty awesome! Latin doesn't do these mathematical miracles!
This really resonates with me!
I was born and raised Catholic but I'm now a Presbyterian but I still love your channel. Good job.
You went Protestant? 😅 Oh my Lord, you're going the wrong way. Good luck reconciling all of those heresies.
Thank you for doing this, Trent!
I knew it would be him haha! Thank you for this brother 🙏
Mango Matt Slick is debating Canadian Catholic right now!
@@halleylujah247 Thank you! I'm listening now! Lol. Who's winning?
I saw your comment for 3 years ago in the video of "converting to orthodox", saying you were protestant and that you were considering converting to Catholicism but bc of Jay dyer was like "destroying" the arguments for Catholicism you were considering to convert to orthodox and now that I'm seeing this videos 2 year after and I see you coment here, so I wanted to know if you have converted to Catholicism or if you have decided too go to orthodox? And if you have go towards Catholicism, how is it going? Are you liking it? XOXO 😊😊
I see what he is doing…he is playing to many of the frustrations that trads have. He wants to pick us off by demonstrating that the Church has either defected or never was the true Church.
And Trent is being very sly in quoting Taylor Marshall on Islam.
@C ok orthobro. Your hatred of Rome owes from the 19th Century and was forgotten about for a few hundred years. This orthobro mentality is a protestant inspired anachronism
Orthobros take too many plays out of Fr. John Romanides' playbook
@@icxcnika2037 only from a Protestant point of view. They’re wrong so there’s nothing forcing me to admit that
@C that’s because you are gripped by spiritual delusion
@@icxcnika2037 Orthodox have to "cope" with the fact they are committed to ignoring the Papacy. Which is a huge blunder. Worse than any eccentricity of our Saints.
That Taylor Marshall reference was masterful
Best Part of Jay's discourse.
Trent, where’s the infallible list of the infallible extra ordinary magisterium and universal ordinary? There’s not one. It just moves the problem back a step. What is the epistemic criteria to know you are accurately putting them into which box, versus the fallible ordinary? Is that your private interpretation?
Thanks for commenting Jay. If you want to setup a further engagement on this issue you can DM me or reach me here: www.trenthorn.com/contact/
Can't a limb straight-up connect to the trunk, without another separate limb to hold it up?
This is what my PhD dissertation is on. Jay is out of his depth here. More to come.
@@ReasonandTheology coming from Loftin who uses a ladder shorter then himself to reach for unread books on his even shorter book shelf ?
@@ReasonandTheology LESSS GO. LOFTON IS HERE. 😉.
If you do a review of this Trent rebuttal, the orthobros will go even crazier.
Orthobros assemble! Trent stepping into next level apologetics where actual threats are made.😬
You do realize Trent maliciously ran away from a debate challenge issued by Dyer right? You complain about the Orthobros yet seem completely okay with the Catholic pop apologists like Trent and Scott Hahn that dance around genuine problems in the Catholic Church like the past 60 years of heresy.
@@TheThreatenedSwan Don’t be so hard on “Pope” Francis who in his delusion promotes heresy.
@@eternalbyzantium262 You read a lot into my statement. How do you know what I believe? I complain about Orthobros because they use logical fallacies at leisure and do not address actually claims of people regarding your leader. Define pop apologist. How does one maliciously run away?
@@eternalbyzantium262 yeah because Dyer acts like a whole whiny adolescent
Trent dismissed debating me. Wonder why
Great video Trent! We need more Catholics responding to these obnoxious ‘Orthobros’
@@icxcnika2037 ST. Augustine Rebutted these Orthodox Christians already...He said that the true Church is known by her HOLY BRAND NAME CATHOLIC....
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the "Whole world" employs in her regard."
-------ST. AUGUSTINE, The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.
==================
I Will follow that Christian Religion that is called CATHOLIC by the UNIVERSAL world...😉
@@icxcnika2037 ??...If you are the Catholic church, why does the WHOLE WORLD don't call you that name??🙄🙄 Even your enemies don't call you that CATHOLIC name??🙄🙄
St. Augustine's prophecy looks more like the Modern Catholic church...
THE "Brand NAme" belongs to us...Stop your wishful thinking....
ST. PACIAN OF BARCELON, 390 A.D.
"But under the Apostles, you will say, no one was called Catholic. Be it thus. It shall have been so. Allow even that. When after the Apostles heresies had burst forth, and were striving under various names to tear piecemeal and divide the Dove and the Queen of God, did not the Apostolic people require a name of their own, whereby to mark the unity of the people that were uncorrupted, lest the error of some should rend limb by limb the undefiled virgin of God? Was it not seemly that the chief head should be distinguished by its own peculiar appellation?"
-----ST. PACIAN OF BARCELONA, LETTER 1, 390 A.D.
@@icxcnika2037 Oh that rich, nice try but be serious. When people say Catholics its the Roman Catholic church. Thanks for playing though 😃😃😃
@@icxcnika2037 ??..CATHOLIC is the one that contains the TRUE FAITH.... And it attaches ONLY to the Church called CATHOLIC by the WHOLE WORLD...That is the STandard Rule of St. Augustine and the Church Fathers....This is the BRAND NAME of the Church registered in Heaven....
ST. AUGUSTINE, 390 A.D.
"The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep (Jn 21:15-19), down to the present episcopate.
And so, lastly, does the very name of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.
Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should ... With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me."
------ST. AUGUSTINE, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith., 390 A.D.
========================
This prophecy of ST. Augustine looks more like the Modern catholic Chruch....not the Eastern ORthodox... 😁
@@icxcnika2037 ??.... What can you quote mine there??.....I can even paste the WHOLE CHAPTER 4 of his PRophecy if you want....
CHAPTER 4
"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)- not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion."
-------St. Augustine (354-430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4
=====================
Tell me if his Description of the Church looks like the Modern Eastern Orthodox??😁
Communion of young people or not...It does not matter...Church got authority and power to adjust the legal Age....
And in case you don't know...Acts 15 did no abolish the Circumcision of Christian Jews....Your Eastern orthodox church and the Church ,abolish this rule already....Jewish Christians don't need circumcision already...
Even though dyer has a big bookshelf behind him, we all know trents bookshelf has to at least be another few hundred feet off camera.
I think the Church has overdone it on ecumenicalism and religous dialogue (Assisi being the prime example). But members of the EO communion have no right to criticize. EO were at Assisi and the EO are members of the National COuncil of Churches and the World Council of Churches. The RC has only observer status.
An EO would say that is very different because the faith doesn't fall with terrible bishops. Bishops can be outright heretics and have been. For a pope to show indifferentism is much much graver of a situation.
Catholics have no refutation to this
@@seraphim95 Yes we do, since we are not Sedevacantists, we acknowledge that even Popes are able to adhere towards heresy, and the faith does not fall apart because of this, since the institution of the Papacy cannot be tainted, just as the Eucharist cannot be tainted by a serial killing priest.
I should say to my fellow Catholics: the behavior of Jay and the Orthobros is not indicative of the Orthodox as a whole.
For Catholics interested in learning more of Orthodoxy, I recommend Fr. Josiah Trenham for a better introduction.
Yeah.....not buying it.
Was Ortho for 13 years, & the Dyerites are becoming more mainstream.
@fredreich groypson you obviously have not seen his debate with Tjump (an atheist) where Jay becomes utterly unhinged and makes basic category errors (such as conflating logical and sound arguments) while using crappy presup all along the way.
Meanwhile, Trent (Thomist Catholic) had a debate with this same atheist that was far, far more fruitful and compelling for theism than... whatever Dyer was doing.
@fredreich groypson the Thomists/classical foundationalist apologists actually demonstrate the coherence of their own metaphysics, whereas the presup guys like Jay, Darth Dawkins and James White assert the inconsistency of the atheist position, while asserting that therefore their own system is correct.
It's like... no, you've only done half the work.
I'm Catholic and Fr. Trenham is a solid guy. Very respectful and inspiring
@@glof2553 It's just that you have never listened to the second part of the argument
It sounds like dyer googled catholicism bad, then copy and pasted other people's rejections in order to appeal to his ex protestant orthobros who meme life all day
It's really wonderful how calmly you respond to people in these videos. There are so many times where I get angry at how your "opposition" states things and you don't rise to the bait. Thank you for that.
Isn't it funny that Taylor Marshall won't debate this guy, but demanded Bishop Barron go onto his channel and explain hope all be saved?
Marshall made that video saying he doesn't understand what Barron meant and didn't even cite the article on Word on Fire that clarified Barron and was published a few days before the video so he didn't even try to understand Barron.
the protestanism in taylor strong still
Not charitable and there’s nothing wrong with TM.
@@dwightschrute900 You're right TM wasn't charitable towards Bishop Barron trying to twist his words into heresy despite Barron clarifying before he made his video.
The debate between RC and OC seems to be something where you will see the evidence how you want to. Both sides have strong cases on their own, in a debate you go with your gut. For me, I think theosis and the spiritual experience of Christ is more emphasized in the OC. I was raised in the RC and just never got that side of the faith and fell into atheism. But that said, I love the Catholic church and my Catholic brothers and sisters. It is my true hope to see all 5 patriarchs come to an agreement so we can tackle the true false faith of protestantism
The concept of theosis is still taught extensively in Eastern Catholicism.
In the West, I've seen Theosis usually referred to as "Christification", which is achieved through the worthy reception of the Eucharist and a life of virtue which eventually becomes "Heroic Virtue" which is emphasized. Also there is still an interest in mysticism and meditative mental prayer.
For many in the Catholicism, the top reason why they are convinced that their faith is the true one is because of the many apparitions of Our Lady, Christ, the Angels and Saints, with miracles and signs alongside them.
Especially those approved apparitions which have happened since the 20th century, which confirm Catholic dogmatic theology, without disqualifying Eastern Catholic practices and traditions. Like with the case of the Immaculate Conception.
These theological points however are not necessarily accepted by the EO. The circumstances surrounding them and investigations make it unlikely that these differing points are fabrications, especially because many of the seers of these apparitions are generally simple people or children who are not acquainted with these theological concepts and lived on a pre-internet age, yet managed to transmit them and the prophecies attributed to these messages from Heaven became true.
Also many of the messages from these apparitions speak in reprobation about the Catholic clergy who were unfaithful or would be in the future which we are now living. As such many of these apparitions were initially not well received by many priests and bishops at the time and there were attempts to suppress them, as these messages didn't fit with their agendas or caused a negative emotional response in them.
Though ultimately some of these apparitions became approved as the testimony of the witnesses and extraordinary signs proved to be worthy of belief.
You can definitely see the debate between the EO and RC is on another level when compared to Protestants.
@@vincentterraneo263 tflhb
Council's are responses to heresies... so if this was an issue of the schism, why was it not addressed then?
That said I appreciate you actually addressing and defending your position as opposed to attacking EO...
Hey there, i am new to the whole Catholicism vs Eastern Orthodoxy debate (extremely new). And I have no idea what you're talking about. But don't Jesus and Paul both talk explicitly about division?
@@abelj5145 the church was split around 1054 ( controversies started in the 8th century and we were completely split by 1270) over two major issues. Fillioque and the jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome.
I'm saying that previously dogmatic statements come from councils and those councils are a response to heresy.
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese Wow, he put them in Roman Numerals. Hahaha. You people are such try-hards. So insecure that you have to jump at every Catholic on the internet, worship, I mean watch Jay Dyer religiously (pun intended), and just overall have an arrogance that is so offputting. No wonder your church is small and meak. Just as you are in mind and body. It's clear the EO internet cult kids suffer from little brother syndrome and I would probably be right in saying that they are miserable in life, always wondering if they are "right" and living on the internet just repeating what they are told by their master Jay.
Ironic how in point 9 Jay criticises "clown masses" whatever they are and alledges all sorts of wayward liturgies and innovation while at the same time he will critique motu propter for trying to preserve mass in Latin language and associated liturgy and ask for any innovation to be moderated through bishops. It is also ironic to say that the pope can and should excommunicate innovators ( the seeming final orthodox solution to everything) but on the other hand criticise the pope for regulating the Eastern rite in order to preserve it from innovation.
Why is he so obsessed with studying Catholicism? To me this shows God has a placed a desire in him to be Catholic and in communion with Christ’s true church.
He started out Protestant, then became Catholic and then sedevacantist for a while before converting to Orthodoxy. I hope you’re right, but it seems like he just wants to protest.
Its called being knowledgable and he was a catholic for many years
By that logic, most apologists secretly want to be atheists
Gaslighting lol
@@ratio518 To be fair, there are lots of people who have been Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox their whole life and still have no idea what they’re talking about when they explain their particular faith tradition.
Thanks for addressing Jay. He is bringing many to Orthodoxy and mainstream Catholics won't deal with him. Please continue the conversation
How? He comes across as a jerk.
@@ntmn8444 He does (and is). never underestimate the power of online convertodox contrarianism
i used to watch him when i was considering orthodoxy. it’s because he’s “cool” and seems to know a lot of ~hidden truth~ like his works on Hollywood satanists and p3dos.
Cope, seethe & dilate
@@ntmn8444 I'd rather hear the truth from a jerk than a false teaching from a pharisee.
Seems like both Churches preach charity, but you wouldn't know it by the way some folks talk to eachother in the comments (confession would certainly be prudent for some :). The world hates us and wants our Churches destroyed, so can we at least operate as friends due to a shared enemy? Tangibly, let's read eachother's words in a charitable light before projecting meaning and imagining tone.
I swear, it's like listening two kids arguing over whose dad would win in a fight while being stalked by wolves.
@John Hickey
John,
Trent is responding. Not attacking.
Certain Orthodox offering opposition to Rome have been very caustic and even sarcastic. NOT so in the RC
@Eremias Ranwolf
Eremias,
Interesting fantasy.
Now back to reality.
You should know that a Pope is elected by Cardinals.
Truth is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit given by Christ to His one Church.
JOHN 16, 13
13. When the SPIRIT of TRUTH comes, He WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Eremías,
Do you truly believe Christ's promise?
Here's another promise you must believe:
JOHN 17:21-23
21. so that they may all BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE,
23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.
What does Jesus want?
UNITY! Not divisions. That is why Jesus prays for Peter, our first Pope, Vicar of Christ.
LUKE 22:31-32
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I HAVE PRAYED FOR YOU that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again (after the denials), strengthen your brethren".
Are the 1st century "brethren" the only fortunate ones or does it apply to all humanity until the end of times?
Of course not. It applies to all humans throughout the centuries, since Jesus clearly said He will be with His Church forever. That is, Peter's successors will also be able to strengthen their brethren accross the centuries just like Peter was
guided by the Holy Spirit to all the truth.
MATTHEW 28:19-20
19. GO therefore and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20. and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, TO THE END OF THE AGE.”
What shall all Christians do?
All must listen to Jesus who speaks through His one infallible Church and do what it says in the Gospel:
▪︎LUKE 10:16
16. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
The lesson is very clear Eremías.
Now you must humbly obey Jesus Christ our Lord and be one with His Church.
May God bless your discernment.
Thank you, Trent, for giving clarity to my Catholic Faith. What an awesome gift God has given to the world through video such as these!❤️✝️👍😊
Clement of Rome being an important figure in the early church doesn’t prove papal primacy in the early church.
John Meyendorf's book "Marriage, an Eastern Orthodox View" is a really good book, both for the East and the West. While I disagree with Meyendorf's position on contraception, it should be noted that his reasoning and explanation is well composed, albeit, in error, not from a lack of grounding in history as much as a misunderstanding of how chemical contraception would affect individuals and society, as effect brilliantly foreseen by St. Paul VI and those who helped write Humanae Vitae.
But much of what he says beyond this is very informative. It would consider it a seminal work on Christian marriage, best read by a Catholic in combination with St. John Paul the Great's Love and Responsibility. (Though it is significantly more accessible than the latter.)
Kallistos's work is also great. God bless the Metropolitan in his waning years.
there is nothing in the logic of presuppositionalism against the Catholic faith... the problem of Dyer, as well as of many other anti-Catholics out there, is to think that the catholic faith is entirely based on papal dogmatic declarations, which is simply ridiculous - the patristic tradition of the faith has primary authority to define what constitutes catholic doctrine
@C No it's not.
@@MajorasTime Pius IX declared at v1 “I am the tradition.” That council even went so far as to say it was likely that the Pope could not error even I private matters. The popes have shown that they have the power to override the consensus of the fathers, the magisterial interpretation of Mathew 16 is a good example of this.
Catholic faith trembles because of the doctrine of absolute divine simplicity. Without the energy essence distiction you can't know God and this leads to atheism/pantheism
>the patristic tradition has primary authority to define catholic doctrine.
Many fathers of the church forbid imagination in prayer.
Yet the Catholic church contrary to the tradition not only does not forbid this, but *encourages* the use of imagination in prayer, the "Ignatian spirituality", which leads to all this eccentric emotionalism and spiritual delusion, for example, thinking you need to be able to imagine things in order to commune with God.
Looks like the fathers of old have been put to the side.
www.pravmir.com/article_545.html
This is why you see all these visions and apparitions in the second millennium which we did not see in the first millennium. Because the Catholic church by teaching we ought to use imagination in prayer (implicitly) teaches that this is the *goal* of prayer.
I always get the feeling that Jay is still an evangelical Protestant in his DNA.
Bingo 100%
He sure does act like one. Jay by himself is to blame for the Ortho bros. They literally act like online calvinists, but claim orthodoxy. It's quite ironic.
@@jonathansoko5368 yup. Jay has never dropped his Calvinistic attitude. He’s still basically a theonomist, and runs around trying to be Bahnsen in different denomination and one time in Judiasm.
He is the archetypical orthobro
Umm no he’s not, and it’s based what he says he “believes”
Granted he was raised Baptist, then Presbyterian, then Roman Catholic, then orthodoxy, then denounced orthodoxy and went back to Catholic, then outright denied Christ for a time, then back to orthodoxy.
You can’t believe in the worship of saints, relics and Mary, and deny the atonement of Christ on the cross and be Protestant. You could be Catholic tho
Dyer misunderstands that the primacy of the Pope was not really in serious theological dispute until the age of modernism. Indeed, the authority of the Church altogether was in dispute in this age, and the stamp of the Pope is all that could be held up as authority for giving certitude to the Church's witness of Jesus Christ to the world, to uphold Scripture and Tradition. All doctrine that came after Vatican I would be impossible to assert if we were still asking whether the Magisterium has any authority to uphold a belief in Scripture and the apostolic faith. Jay is basically saying (without realizing it) that there is no certainty to Christianity that can be affirmed by the Church, and that personal witness alone can serve as any authority for the witness of Scripture and Tradition. Which is ridiculous.
Jay is being intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. He has admitted in his streams time and again that a belief becomes dogmatized only when it is disputed and challenged. But he seems to abandon his own line of reasoning altogether when it comes to bashing the Catholic Church. He's and forked tongued charlatan
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese not epistemic certitude but magisterial certitude, which in any age beyond the first century is necessary to confirm any claim of having epistemic certitude today.
I agree with everything Trent has to say here except for the part on where he speaks on presuppositionalism. Presuppositional apologetics actually originated from Catholic saints, not the Reformers. Most people don't seem to know that. St. Irenaeus was a presuppositionalist and used presuppositional arguments for God and Catholicism in his writings. And St. John Damascus used a transcendental argument for knowledge and sense perception. So this is the only mistake so far that Trent has made in the video.
Yo, Saint Irenaeus quotations pl0x
We might as well say St Thomas Aquinas is a presuppositionalist provided we're talking about divine revelation. Matters of the faith don't rely on the same sort of justification as normal discourse, if the premise of the authority of any given statement is "God told me" it has to presuppose there's a God
I'd like to see where you get the impression St. Ireneaus was a presuppositionalist. Thanks.
@@xXXDeadlyHavocXXx Sure. Here's one example. St. Irenaeus gave an argument for the existence of God while presupposing the Christian God in his argument.
“For it is necessary that, things that are made should have the beginning of their making from some great cause; and the beginning of all things is God. For He Himself was not made by any, and by Him all things were made. And therefore it is right first of all to believe that there is One God, the Father, who made and fashioned all things, and made what was not that it should be, and who, containing all things, alone is uncontained.” (St. Irenaeus, Demonstration of The Apostolic Preaching 4)
@@MajorasTime The fact that God is one is something that is attainable through reason alone.
Hey Trent! I am a fan of your work and just wanted to say that Jay goes into more detail on these simple objections which demonstrate his knowledge on these matters. Would love to see a debate or at least one with Ubi Petrus who would be a great interlocutor on the papacy.
Give me one example (not a plethora of them, since I won't have time).
@@namapalsu2364 scripture or saint?
@@everlastingphronema9700 Examples of when Dyer goes into detail about stuff in this video.
@@icxcnika2037 I know. I see that they are choosing these small boiled down videos to pick apart rather than the other videos. Very strategic on their part.
@@namapalsu2364 if you type Vatican or papacy in the channel he has hours of videos looking at every possible angle. He uses Denzinger and other leading RC apologists, along with church history to make these arguments. However you may see him, I find his approach very charitable and the responses back form Catholics very lack luster in depth of argumentation.
I cam becoming Eastern Orthodox. I made a comment that was plainly wrong and upon studying the matter it is no longer defensible, eastern catholicism refutes rome.
Thank you Mario. As a Roman Rite Catholic, I like to see someone expose Jay on his misunderstandings of uniatism.
Where was I wrong? You confess two different creeds and honor schismatic saints lol.
@@JayDyer you should repent and convert to Catholicism.
@@JayDyer Dude you Eastern Orthodox venerate St. Isaac of Syria who died as a member of the Assyrian Church of the East so your point is moot. 🤷
@@JayDyer The Bible have Christ assigned a Pope. All you need to do is humble and put faith in God.
God Bless Trent Horn
Thank you mr. Horn for your work.
Wow this was a great rebuttal video. Jay Dyer is a VERY smart dude, I'm glad you could rebut him.
Jay wrote in his community page that this was a basic tier response
How smart he is? That even the Vatican bank is now his own reason not to be catholic 😂😂😂. So smart RIGht 😂😂😂. I guess the orthodox church doesn't have banks Ahahah indeed his smart
I mean Trent can do only so much. Francis is doing all of Jay's work himself.
J Dyer is still a protestant at heart.....
He always seems to gravitate towards controversial groups. When he was Catholic, he wasn't just like a regular Catholic, he was SSPX. Now that he's Orthodox, he's not Greek Orthodox or even OCA, but he's Russian Orthodox, who are like the worst for ecumenical and political reasons. Also, they are in schism. He may have been Protestant initially, but something tells me he wasn't your average Protestant. He probably had a "Pope Is the ANTICHRIST; Repent From Your Paganism" blog or something like that. The guys got a knack for the theatrical, which is why I think he has a following.
The pope doesnt condemn the religious indifferentism he commits, the constant scandals in the Church, the global liturgical abuse in Catholic Churches, false ecumenism, corrupt cardinals and other church authorities, Catholic Church authorities praying in mosques and synagogues, sex abuse scandals in Catholic Churches worldwide, vatican bank money embezzlement and heresy after heresy with lgbt “catholics” and liberal progressives. The current “Pope” doesnt condemn any of that but instead condemns the traditional latin mass, which has to be constantly fought over for against the Catholic Church’s instructions, which is one of the only pious things Catholics somewhat have in order to maintain Church tradition and the “Pope” wants to remove even that last hint of preserved tradition. This is so satanic that I am absolutely appauled that Catholics are so blind and oblivious to this and pretend as if everything is okay. “Pope” Francis is the first born of Satan and an antichrist who intends to persecute Christ. We will pray for you Catholics so that Satan’s blindfold over you will be removed because it is only you that allow Satan’s church to have the power it does to damn so many souls to hell. The Holy Orthodox Church, in spite of the problems experienced, is solid in structure and has every solution possible to counteract heresy. Thank God for the exodus so many Catholics are experiencing, such as myself, in leaving the Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy. Truly the Orthodox Church has stood the test of time, survived invasion, destruction, internal schism, heresy and so much more because the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. This is because the Church has measures to ensure that members who are mislead into heresy by heretical bishops can be brought into track because of the structure of the hierarchs, the nature of Church tradition and canon law. Whereas anyone who truly follows Pope Francis to the letter is more likely to be condemned to hell due to swallowing of heresy after heresy.
@@eternalbyzantium262 all you say are accusations that do not mean a thing in some areas. I attend Norvos ordo and never come across those abuses where I go. All the parishes I have been. What you talk about here is just what you have heard others say not seen.
I am Catholic meaning I am universal and for over 36 years I have attended Norvos ordo every place I have been on a Sunday away from my home parish. I never witnessed that trash you talk about. Be realistic. In my experience all Norvos ordo masses are the same. Small or high.
The rest you mention above show that we are human and wherever there are humans sins can occur. I guess I am talking to an adult. Judas was among the 12. Peter erred, Thomas doubted and some of the first believers in christ walked away when he said eat my body. That's human nature. The trindetine Mass can be beautiful to you same as the Norvos ordo if you understand mass. Reverence is not about receiving Christ in the mouth that trashes a neighbour, that spouts evil words as much as the ha ds that touch evil. Purity of heart is required to receive the Eucharist and all of us can never be as pure. We all need Christ in our hearts to whip the devil out. The popes have apologised for scandals in the church and us the church are also harmed by the scandals. We are a communion of saints and within that communion we play a part of praying for the church and apologising too. In my opinion you are the holier than thou guy. Unfortunately.
He thinks like a protestant.
@@eternalbyzantium262 so the pope must respond to the media like a toy dog and at the same time micro manage 1.2 billion Catholics?
That is up to the individual Catholics themselves.
He was correct to place that distribution of TLM in the hands of local bishops.
Benedict's freedom of use of TLM was abused and highjacked by some trads and diabolically employed as a divisive tool.
EXCELLENT VIDEO
Taking on Jay Dyer. Brave man
Trent is the fire starter.... twisty fire starter...
Dyer is hot air... No courage required
@@patriciajohnson1894 - i'm Catholic but must disagree
lol...VERY brave man, even braver to debate him
Good explanation to his claims false claims. I am amazed how much knowledge you have. God bless you.
JAY DYER REBUTTED!! We love you Trent 🙏🏽
😂😂😂😂
He responded ruclips.net/video/BJnrz7U9ugU/видео.html
I’m Eastern Orthodox and let me just say that Jay Dyer doesn’t represent Orthodoxy. He’s jumped from denomination and even different religions, and ridiculing everyone on the way. When he actually became Orthodox for reals, he promised he wouldn’t do online apologetics again. That only lasted a month. Priests everywhere find him irritating
prOtEsTanTs cAmE fRom CaThOliCisM
The Eastern Orthodox 'apologist' who denies indulgences, purgatory, and mortification of the flesh said.
Ask Orthodox about the Raskol in the 17th century when they talk about this. They have their own issues with splits and schisms too.
It did.
Yes, indulgences are indeed pharisaic and legalistic.
On purgatory read "The Orthodox Response to the Latin doctrine of Purgatory" on the website of Orthodox Info, not sure if I can post the link without getting my comment removed. No Orthodox Christian who knows their theology denies the existence of a state of purification after death, the problem is the temporal payment and what the flames mean.
Mortification of the flesh is fine as long as it's that and not the gnostic practice of literally beating/whipping your body up as it been practiced in the prelest ridden post-schism west. Actual mortification of the flesh is increased prayer, giving of alms, attending Church and rigerous fasting - which quite frankly - you papists don't even do anymore, not even in traditional circles. Even Wednesdays as fast days as recorded in the Didache isn't observed anymore in the papist sect for quite some time now. And don't even get me started on pre-communion fasting.
@@lordofhostsappreciator3075 1. I didn't say it didn't, I'm saying it's blatant hypocrisy for an EO 'apologist' to complain about that whilst rejecting the things which were made grievences of the Protestant movement, which all go back to their core error of radical sola fide.
2. Indulgences are binding and loosing sins.
3. Yes, Orthodox believe in purgatory; and it's not Catholic doctrine that "purgatorial" (simply Latin for "purifying") suffering is literal fire, or that people spend a certain amount of time in days there, or even that it's necessarily a 'place' (although I find it hard to concieve of a soul experiencing anything without being in a 'place'). They obviously don't spend in instant or that's not purgatory, nor can that be called an experience of any kind. It's also the same as saying there is no purgatory, because it makes it superfluous. They obviously don't spend and eternity, since that's hell. So there is a time experienced, we just don't know how it works. There is suffering, we just don't know what that looks like.
However, it's possible that it looks exactly like the rich man in Hades.
Gaslighting everyone by pretending to Protestants and everyone else that the Catholics invented Purgatory is stupid and sinful.
4. One can choose to mortify their flesh in any way they so please. Whatever helps you grow spiritually. That's like accusing monks of 'spurning healthy social life' by being secluded. Instead of recognizing that people can yield up freedoms and bodily comfort on purpose for spiritual gain.
What about pouring ashes over your head, or sleeping on sackcloth? These are all forms of mortification of the flesh. What's a self-whipping? It's merely that but more instantaneous than a the drawn out sleeping on haircloth. The length of time is the only difference.
5. We do fast before Communion. And disciplines like this can be lifted, dropped, changed etc. at any time. Don't get me started on the EO pretending divorce and remarriage is not adultery. You also use leavened bread for the new Passover. What would St. Paul have to say about that, according to your logic? "Christ our Pasch is sacrificed, therefore let us keep the feast, not with the leaven of wickedness ... but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
What sense would that make if later that day he celebrated the Eucharist with leavened bread? Christ used unleavened bread for the first Eucharist. Point is we can have these 'gotcha' back and forths all day about some ancient now dropped practice in the early Church, and I'm sure I could produce many such comparable instances for the Orthodox if I were so inclined. A big one is the papacy which all the Fathers taught but which you gaslight yourselves into thinking it was just a primacy of honor, whatever that even means practically.
Since the devil wants us to be at each other's throats: God bless you.
@@lordofhostsappreciator3075 The orthodox do not fast, dude. Y'all like hype this idea that you're all ascetics. Following a vegan diet a couple times per week is not fasting. Fasting is total abstention from food. Water-only. PROTESTANTS fast more for spiritual reasons than the Orthodox do.
@@deepforestfire you have no idea what you’re talking about dude. There’s plenty of fasting and I find it challenging personally
Please definitely do an episode on religious liberty. Is a very hot button issue amongst many of us I think from Libs, to Cons, to Trads.
Trent goes after heavy hitters all over RUclips
Well done Trent
Good stuff, but you can't just write off the David Wemhoff book. I managed to buy a hardcover copy of it, so it's still out there. Might be worth responding to in depth at some point.
Jay Dyer reminds me of a Orthodox version of Christopher Hitchens. Great with rhetoric but theres quite a few times where the substance of what he says is lacking.. He strawmans quite a bit.
Come discuss discord.gg/orthodoxchristian
@@JayDyer "come on my discord so I can bully you out and claim victory"
@@JayDyer like everyone else he's probably banned 🤣
Hitchens chides with style. Dyer just insults and mocks other vulgarly.
@@namapalsu2364 Hitchens was shallow in his arguments and fell apart when it came to morality could never say that atheism lead to the 100's of million deaths of the last century.
As for the contraceptive issue because you have lack of understanding of spiritual illnesses, the reason an orthodoxy we have spiritual fathers is to gauge how your illness reflects on the individual persons. For example, there was a monk who drank a half a bottle of whiskey every day. All the other monks would judge him because the perfect role would be for him not to. When he died all were presents and two angels appeared and they saw his soul going up to heaven. They were astounded. They asked the abbot" why?" The Abbott answered when he was a child he was hiding with his parents from the Ottomans going through the fields and to not cry. His parents would feed him alcohol. When he came to the monastery, he would drink two bottles of alcohol. Throughout the years he lowered and lowered his consumption. He got all the way down to half a bottle. His charisma was he would never judge any other person. This is why this man was elevated to the most high. Through the grace of God, our spiritual fathers guide us.Each individuals illnesses are different. That's the prescription is different. Again, there is the perfect rule and then there's the reality of the illness. I find Catholics to be quite technical and they're examination of life. Very legalistic which reminds me of the Pharisees. My next door neighbor's Catholic. A wonderful man. I remember I bought coffee on Sunday and he started pointing his finger at me. I found that a little legalistic.
Natural family planning is not a abortifacient. Is scientific and unitive.
Protestants may protest the catholic but not eating the last supper/holy communion means one has forgotten Jesus and his instruction to eat his flesh and drink his blood.
Worth the whole two hours, thanks !
I used to follow Dyer, but I am a cradle Catholic and never questioned my catholicism. As a French Canadian Quebecer, I can't separate Québec from the Roman Catholic Church. Dyer doesn't get stuff like that, typical of Anglo-Americans. I liked his nasty debates with atheists and his estoteric/satanist film talks cos they're fun, but I quit listening to anything he did regarding Orthodoxie years ago. He's such an asshole to most people.
That's a really bad reason to stay Catholic.
I don't know how familiar you are with Orthodox converts in America, but from my experience, a lot of them are Anglos who don't have much of a cultural connection to their heritage and come from not very religious households. They grasp on to zealotry to mask their lack of depth of knowledge of the faith.
@@OrangeXenon54 I am not super familiar with them in the US, but what you say sounds credible. For me, as a French Canadian, I am Catholic (with all the problems that entails) and that's it. I know a guy from here who "converted" to orthodoxy four years ago and lives in the smallish town where i live that has zero orthodox community. To me, it's just stupid. But if he lived in Montréal or Quebec City, he could run around with foreigners at their orthodox churches. That doesn't interest me.
I would love a three-way between Dyer, Trent and Jordan Cooper
Ayo
Please rephrase
@@colavertigo 😆 perv
I'm a protestant and I really appreciate Trent's rebuttal videos. Clears all the misconception about Catholicism.
We can disagree but let's disagree with each other for what our actual differences are instead of some misapprehension.
To all the viewers: sincerely pray and listen even as you watch this video or any other related video for that matter. May God bless us and lead us into all the truth!
@@tony1685 thanks for engaging! Really appreciate it. I'm a Baptist and stand clear on the doctrine of justification by faith alone. However, I've noticed many protestant are also not aware of what the protest was about and would rather choose to charicature Catholicism; and on that note I feel Trent really does a good work clearing things on those lines. Thank you friend for your contribution 🤗
@@tony1685 those men Trent relies on were alive before the Bible ever existed. It stands to reason, if we want to know what the early Church practices and taught, we need to read the text that we’re written by the early Christians.
Try RCIA
I’ve asked you mamy times to debate. Why won’t you? 30 minutes on radio (that you offered) is not a debate.
OK is he true dyer but who cares.
He just offered to debate you in a structured format rather than mere dialogue. From looking at Trent’s debate history those run ~2-3 hours. HORN & DYER FALL 2021!
Dude he literally just offered to debate you. If you don't accept his challenge now then you expose yourself that you're a coward and you only pick and choose who you think would be an easier opponent. There's literally no valid excuse to turn down his offer now.
The Trent guy just did ask the Dyer guy for a debate, right?
Well, let me reason over this. The first guy, Dyer, says “debate me, but I give you only a few days”. The other guy, Trent, says “I don’t debate like that, give me two months”.
It is of good commonsense that people have to prepare for debates. Besides, I understand Trent has four children, writes a lot of books and has editorial obligations, has his job at Catholic Answers and has a busy schedule only for debates already scheduled in advance. Let us consider this.
To ANY REASONABLE person, if we should see any cowardice whatsoever, it sounds like the guy Dyer was the one having problems with this.
Personally I don’t believe it was the guy Dyer running away: he simply seems to have problems following strict rules and having etiquette. I believe the Dyer guys wants to debate sincerely.
What I don’t understand is the one guy saying he asked for a debate but couldn’t accept the reasonable conditions the other guy asked for, and then coming to showboat.
The question is: WILL YOU ACCEPT it?
From Brazil 🇧🇷 with love.
@@MajorasTime Based.
Great video. Can't wait for your debate with him!!!
Jay is using Protestant and Sedevacantist attacks that if true would disprove East Orthodoxy. So many of Trent’s defenses can just go, umm this applies to your church too, Jay.
Like what?
Watch the video it happened like a half a dozen times. Important doctrine not dogmatically defined until late in Church history. Ambiguity of doctrine from tradition in its levels of authority and over time. The development of doctrine and changing of certain practices, example of Catholic stance on death penalty vs Orthodox stance on contraception.
@@evangelium5376 development of doctrine is necessary to support the modern orthodox use of icons as well as the use of liturgical spoons (there are more but these two are very obvious)
That would be a tu quoque fallacy. It's an appeal to hipocrisy. Let's assume you're right and Jays being hypocritical. Appealing to his hipocrisy is not a reason for us to believe your system has solved the problem. It's a form of deflection.
Everything doesn’t fall on one guy for us so it’s not the same.